Speaker 1: Welcome to the Friends with Money podcast, brought to you
Speaker 1: by Money Magazine, creating financial freedom for Australians since nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety nine.
Speaker 2: Hello and thanks for joining us for another episode of
Speaker 2: Friends with Money, money Magazine's podcast to help you earn, save,
Speaker 2: and achieve your financial goals. My name is Tom Watson,
Speaker 2: a senior journalist here at Money Magazine, and as always
Speaker 2: it is a pleasure to be with you all. Today
Speaker 2: we are back on to what I think is fair
Speaker 2: to say is one of our favorite subjects on Friends
Speaker 2: with Money. It's exchange traded funds ETFs. But what we're
Speaker 2: really going to be focusing in on today is a
Speaker 2: particular breed of ETFs, a breed which seems to have
Speaker 2: grown and grown and grown, at least in terms of
Speaker 2: the number of products available in recent years. We are
Speaker 2: talking about thematic ETF, and if that's a term that
Speaker 2: you've never come across, or you're only vaguely familiar with,
Speaker 2: do not worry, because we have an ETF expert here
Speaker 2: to explain what they are all about. So on that note,
Speaker 2: I am very pleased to say that we are joined
Speaker 2: today by founder and chief executive of stock Spot, Chris Bricky, Chris,
Speaker 2: welcome back to Friends with Money.
Speaker 3: Well, thanks for having me back. Tom, It's great to
Speaker 3: be back on the show.
Speaker 2: Always lovely to have you on, Chris. Perhaps you can
Speaker 2: start us off by helping us to nail down the
Speaker 2: kind of the what in the equation, specifically, what exactly
Speaker 2: thematic ETFs are and what kind of you know, themes
Speaker 2: and inverted comm is we are talking about here.
Speaker 3: Absolutely well, I think most of your listeners will be
Speaker 3: familiar with the traditional sorts of ETF. So historically, the
Speaker 3: first ETFs that came about in Australia just tracked very
Speaker 3: broad market indices and so the ASX two hundred is
Speaker 3: an example, or in the US the SMP five hundred.
Speaker 3: So these are big, big indices with lots of different
Speaker 3: sectors and lots of different companies all mushed together into
Speaker 3: one single ETF. Now, a lot of those ETFs got
Speaker 3: created to cover all the big broad markets. But then
Speaker 3: the ETF companies, the issuers of these products, realized that
Speaker 3: not only is their interest in the whole broad market,
Speaker 3: but actually people were interested in buying particular sectors of
Speaker 3: the market or particular ways of diving up the market
Speaker 3: into little segments, and that's how thematic ETFs came about.
Speaker 3: They're really a way of getting exposure to just a
Speaker 3: niche area of the market rather than the whole market.
Speaker 3: And some examples would be divid end ETFs would be
Speaker 3: a thematic ETF, Environmental and socially responsible ETFs or ESG
Speaker 3: type ETFs is a thematic technology ETFs, or even if
Speaker 3: you want to get more granular AI related ETFs would
Speaker 3: be at thematic ETF. So you can really divide up
Speaker 3: the market in any sort of way you want to
Speaker 3: create and a thematic ETF and it just allows people
Speaker 3: to really focus their investments into a particular area of
Speaker 3: the overall market.
Speaker 2: Chris, I want to kind of get into some of
Speaker 2: those specific kind of categories of thematic ets in a second,
Speaker 2: including something that you've already touched on, but I also
Speaker 2: want to drill down into something that you would just
Speaker 2: kind of explaining there, which is why might people choose
Speaker 2: to build a portfolio of thematic ETFs rather than say,
Speaker 2: focus on ETF which track the kind of indices that
Speaker 2: you were talking about before, like the SX two hundred,
Speaker 2: like the S and P five hundred, like one of
Speaker 2: the many kind of popular indexes in the world.
Speaker 3: Well, there's a few different reasons so that I mean,
Speaker 3: the first reason would be if people have a particular
Speaker 3: view about that sector of the market doing well. So
Speaker 3: you might find that someone has an opinion that technology,
Speaker 3: for instance, is going to continue to outperform more do
Speaker 3: better than the other sectors of the market, and so
Speaker 3: they want more exposure to that particular sector in their portfolio.
Speaker 3: You know, certainly within our client group, we see that
Speaker 3: where a certain sector has done well and they think,
Speaker 3: because of the components of that particular ETF that that's
Speaker 3: going to continue to do well, So it allows you
Speaker 3: to have a more concentrated bet in that area. The
Speaker 3: other similar but related reason might be that and we
Speaker 3: notice it in Australia, a lot of people already have
Speaker 3: exposure to sectors like financial services and mining through owning
Speaker 3: either the direct shares like the bank shares and BHP
Speaker 3: and RIO, or through owning a broad ETF like the
Speaker 3: AX two hundred ETF. But they might feel that they're
Speaker 3: lacking exposure in other sectors that are bigger in other
Speaker 3: parts of the world but not as big in Australia.
Speaker 3: So rather than just buying a global broad market ETF.
Speaker 3: They might select those specific sectors that they want to
Speaker 3: have more of in their portfolio for better balance.
Speaker 2: Overall, it's kind of a bit of a diversification play
Speaker 2: for some people.
Speaker 3: Then it can be. I'd say that's probably less common
Speaker 3: from what we say, see, typically these thematics are really
Speaker 3: used to express a view or really take a position
Speaker 3: on an area of the market that's growing. And you
Speaker 3: see this often from the types of ETFs that are
Speaker 3: getting launched in this thematic space. They're often in areas
Speaker 3: that everyone's talking about, whether it's cryptocurrency or AI or
Speaker 3: technology or the Asian Tiger economies. That they're usually topics
Speaker 3: that are in the news that they want to create
Speaker 3: a product to allow people to access specifically, and usually
Speaker 3: these areas make it into the news when they're doing well.
Speaker 3: You won't often read a news article about a sector
Speaker 3: that's underperforming and that no one's really caring about. And so,
Speaker 3: you know, the trend is typically for these thematics to
Speaker 3: follow sectors that have actually performed. Al Right.
Speaker 2: I think that's a great point. I'm sure that anyone
Speaker 2: that's been paying attention to these thematics in recent years
Speaker 2: would know exactly what you're talking hip out there. I
Speaker 2: think this is a good opportunity to kind of start
Speaker 2: to drill down then, Chris. You know, obviously, as you said,
Speaker 2: there are so many areas that we could drill down into.
Speaker 2: So you know, I thought it'd be a good idea
Speaker 2: to take a look at two broader thematic EDF categories,
Speaker 2: being technology and sustainability, and within each of those, will
Speaker 2: will run through some of the specific ets available and
Speaker 2: how they've performed in recent years with the help of
Speaker 2: some analysis that I know that your team are at
Speaker 2: stock Spot has done recently, Chris. So let's start with
Speaker 2: tech then. It's as you said, it's clearly an area
Speaker 2: that a lot of invested are interested in. So what
Speaker 2: are some of the tech focus ets available to Aussie investors, Chres,
Speaker 2: and what type of companies do they typically include?
Speaker 3: So I would say from our client's perspective, this has
Speaker 3: probably been the biggest area of interest in terms ofs
Speaker 3: and largely due to the really strong performance we've seen
Speaker 3: over the last five years. So I think a lot
Speaker 3: of your listeners will be familiar that you know, US
Speaker 3: technology shares have been some of the best performers globally
Speaker 3: over the last five and ten years. And you know,
Speaker 3: they are companies that aren't listed locally, so in order
Speaker 3: to get exposure to them, you do need to, you know,
Speaker 3: look at products like ETFs to be able to get
Speaker 3: them into your portfolio. You know, this has really led
Speaker 3: to the development of these technology specialist thematic ETFs over
Speaker 3: the last few years. You know, there's a whole range
Speaker 3: of them now, I'd say there's at least half a
Speaker 3: dozen and if you want to count some of the
Speaker 3: ones in some more specific niches, they'd be probably more
Speaker 3: like ten. And they're offered by not just one issuer,
Speaker 3: so there are different issuers of ETFs. In Australia, they're
Speaker 3: offered by quite a few of the issuers now and
Speaker 3: maybe if I started the ones that are the most broad.
Speaker 3: There are some ETFs that you know, cover the stocks
Speaker 3: in broad markets, like the NASDAK. So the NASDAK is
Speaker 3: the broad technology market in the US, and so that
Speaker 3: ETF really tries to include the companies you know, broadly
Speaker 3: in that market all the way down to much more
Speaker 3: granular ETFs that look at only a very small sector
Speaker 3: of technology. So an example of that one would be
Speaker 3: the Hack ETF that looks at cybersecurity stocks, or even
Speaker 3: the Fang ETF that includes those famous Fang stocks. So
Speaker 3: you know, it really gives people a lot of choice.
Speaker 3: Do you want a broad exposure to technology or do
Speaker 3: you want a more niche exposure. The other way that
Speaker 3: ETFs divvy up exposure to sectors, and in a thematic way,
Speaker 3: is through countries. And so there are some ETFs that
Speaker 3: only provide technology exposure, for instance, in Asia. And so
Speaker 3: if you don't want the big US technology stocks like
Speaker 3: the Amazons and the Microsofts and the Metas and the Navidias,
Speaker 3: but you actually want some of those famous Chinese and
Speaker 3: Hong Kong and it may be Indian as well as
Speaker 3: South Korean tech stocks, then as an ETA for that
Speaker 3: as well. And so we often see that clients might
Speaker 3: want a bit of both. You know, over the last
Speaker 3: few years, technology in the US has done a lot
Speaker 3: better than technology in Asia, but there may be a
Speaker 3: period where that reverses, and so people want to have
Speaker 3: a bit of both in their portfolio.
Speaker 2: I think I think your explanations just kind of really
Speaker 2: highlighted how you can have these. You know, there are
Speaker 2: different ways to kind of approach these right with, as
Speaker 2: you said, kind of sectors within sectors, and then looking
Speaker 2: at it from a geographical perspective. It's all kind of
Speaker 2: so interesting. One of the crucial questions here, though, Chris,
Speaker 2: is obviously how these et apps in the I guess
Speaker 2: the tech sector more broadly have performed recently. Though, So
Speaker 2: do you have any kind of indications in terms of
Speaker 2: what their performance has been like in the past year,
Speaker 2: or the past five years, or whatever time period that
Speaker 2: you'd like to pick out?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I mean five years, tom is probably
Speaker 3: a fair way to look at them, because, especially given
Speaker 3: the market volatility at the moment, if you look at
Speaker 3: one year returns, that can change quite a lot just
Speaker 3: day to day or week to week at the most.
Speaker 2: So I'm glad I didn't ask you how they performed
Speaker 2: it the last week and then the last months.
Speaker 3: So yeah, changed by five percent at the moment, But
Speaker 3: you know, five years. I mean, we we recommend clients
Speaker 3: be looking at longer term anyway for investing, because over
Speaker 3: shorter terms you just don't really know. But over five years,
Speaker 3: to give you an example, you know, actually one of
Speaker 3: the best performing ETFs has just been the broad market
Speaker 3: technology ETF focused in the US, which is the Nasdaq ETF.
Speaker 3: NDQ is the is the code for that one. You know.
Speaker 3: One of the reasons that's become so popular is because
Speaker 3: of its strong performance. It's returned just under twenty three
Speaker 3: percent per annum over the last five years, you know,
Speaker 3: which really I guess you know, encaptures the strong performance
Speaker 3: of those big US tech stocs, you know, and some
Speaker 3: of the more concentrated ETFs in that area like Fang
Speaker 3: have done even better. But that particular ETF hasn't been
Speaker 3: around for five years yet, but even over three years,
Speaker 3: that ETFs done better than the Nasdaq ETF, just because
Speaker 3: it's actually been the large cap stocks in the US
Speaker 3: that have done the best, and that ETF has a
Speaker 3: more concentrated exposure to those large caps. On the other
Speaker 3: side of the spectrum, tom Asian Tech has been a
Speaker 3: real disappointment over the last five years. You know, You've
Speaker 3: had all of the policies in the in China that's
Speaker 3: really led to some of those those Chinese tech stocks
Speaker 3: not performing so well, and they've only returned just under
Speaker 3: eleven percent per annum over the last five years, so
Speaker 3: still a decent return, but a long way off the
Speaker 3: twenty three percent that US technology stocks have delivered. But
Speaker 3: I think it really shows listeners that even within a
Speaker 3: sector like technology, you can see quite you know, disparate
Speaker 3: returns between you know, one ETF and another just based
Speaker 3: on what are the actual stocks within that ETF.
Speaker 2: So interesting, I finally enough, I was at the pump
Speaker 2: the other night and someone actually brought up one of
Speaker 2: the one of the very popular tech stocks that was
Speaker 2: particularly popular during the pandemic and has since not fared
Speaker 2: so well. So it was interesting to hear about that
Speaker 2: in real life and be brought up by someone unprompted
Speaker 2: by me.
Speaker 3: So there you go.
Speaker 2: Obviously people are talking about thematics are in the wild
Speaker 2: as well as they as they say.
Speaker 3: Well, it sounds like that person was talking about an
Speaker 3: unloved one, which maybe means that they're yeah, they're thinking
Speaker 3: about things in the right way and not just chasing
Speaker 3: the one that's doing the best today.
Speaker 2: Exactly right, exactly right. Well I'll pass on that compliment
Speaker 2: to them as well. Nothing wrong with a bit of critical thinking, Chris.
Speaker 2: Let's move on to sustainable and ethical ETFs. Then this
Speaker 2: is obviously another you know area that people clearly are
Speaker 2: giving more consideration to So, what are some of the
Speaker 2: options you know, available again in Australia for investors if
Speaker 2: they do want to, you know, put their money into
Speaker 2: a sustainable or ethical focus ETF.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, as you mentioned, I mean, sustainable or ESG
Speaker 3: investing has been a friend that's really been growing around
Speaker 3: the world for the last ten years or so. I'd
Speaker 3: say it's been strongest in Europe. It's been you know,
Speaker 3: quite strong in Australia, not as strong as Europe, and
Speaker 3: then in the US is I think the US has
Speaker 3: sort of been behind in terms of adoption of these
Speaker 3: types of products. Now it's interesting again, rather than kind
Speaker 3: of geographical differences, these products often differ in you know,
Speaker 3: what sort of selection criteria they use for deciding which
Speaker 3: stocks can come into these ethical indices. And this itself
Speaker 3: is a bit of a controversial topic because some ETFs
Speaker 3: choose you know, either more strict or more lenient methodologies,
Speaker 3: and that can lead to stocks that some people may
Speaker 3: not consider to be ethical ending up in some of
Speaker 3: these ethical ETFs. And so, you know, something we recommend
Speaker 3: clients really think about if they're looking at these types
Speaker 3: of ETFs is to consider their own you know ethics
Speaker 3: and values and decide on a product that really aligns
Speaker 3: with how they think about the world, and don't just
Speaker 3: use the don't just rely on the fact that an
Speaker 3: ETF is called an ethical ETF or a sustainable ETF
Speaker 3: because it may not align with your values. So in
Speaker 3: Australia now again there's a large group of these ETFs available.
Speaker 3: Some of them are based on rules, so these are
Speaker 3: traditional ETFs. You know, there aren't active managers deciding which
Speaker 3: stocks to come in and out of these ETFs. They're
Speaker 3: all rules based, and there's quite a few of these
Speaker 3: ETFs around that are rules based ethical ETFs. But there's
Speaker 3: also as well some active ethical ETFs or exchange traded
Speaker 3: managed funds they're called technically where someone's actually deciding which
Speaker 3: stocks to come in and out of these portfolios. And
Speaker 3: these exist both for Australian shares tom but also for
Speaker 3: global shares. And so you know, when we looked at
Speaker 3: this space, the feedback we got from clients was that
Speaker 3: the area that they were most focused on if they
Speaker 3: were interested in ESG investing, was on carbon emissions, and
Speaker 3: so that was the area that we looked at most
Speaker 3: critically when selecting which ETFs to recommend to clients. We
Speaker 3: wanted to look at the ones that were really, you know,
Speaker 3: most focused on removing or reducing their carbon emitting companies
Speaker 3: or the large carbon emitting companies from their portfolios. I'd
Speaker 3: make one other point then, Tom, that this is also
Speaker 3: a controversial area for another reason, which is that the
Speaker 3: regula to ASSEK has been really focused on this area
Speaker 3: because there's been a few ETF companies but also just
Speaker 3: companies generally recommending ESG or sustainable investing that have got
Speaker 3: in trouble for what's known as greenwashing, which is a
Speaker 3: word to describe like overstating the claims of ethical investing.
Speaker 3: And so you know, the regulator is now on really
Speaker 3: focused on making sure that consumers are fully informed and
Speaker 3: they're not misled when they're picking products in this category.
Speaker 2: A great point to bring up, and I think that
Speaker 2: probably emphasizes the point that you know, maybe even more
Speaker 2: so than the other ets that you know, anything in
Speaker 2: this space is really worth looking under the hood, looking
Speaker 2: at the kind of companies that you know, these ETFs
Speaker 2: do have includeds as part of them. Chris, obviously, again
Speaker 2: performance something that everyone's interested in. How have these kind
Speaker 2: of sustainable ethical ESG kind of focused ETFs performed over
Speaker 2: that kind of five year time period that we were
Speaker 2: talking about before.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, it's interesting. So ethical ETFs focused in the
Speaker 3: Australian market generally have actually underperformed our market index over
Speaker 3: that period over three or five years, although they've done
Speaker 3: a bit better over a ten year period, so I'd
Speaker 3: say they've performed more in line with the broad market
Speaker 3: index index over that period of time. You know, part
Speaker 3: of the reason is that some of these ethical ETFs
Speaker 3: don't have as much weight in or have completely removed
Speaker 3: you know, mining shares and sometimes banking shares that have
Speaker 3: actually performed quite well, which leads to the important point
Speaker 3: that often when you're investing in the sustainable or ethical
Speaker 3: thematic ETFs, you're taking bets that certain sectors of the
Speaker 3: market are going to do well and some and you're
Speaker 3: taking a bet that some aren't going to go well,
Speaker 3: and sometimes you're going to be right, and sometimes it's
Speaker 3: not going to work out that way. So Australian esgts
Speaker 3: have actually underperformed a little bit, to give you an
Speaker 3: idea over five years. You know, one of the largest one,
Speaker 3: which is the beta shares Australian Sustainable Lility leaders ETF
Speaker 3: has returned around five percent perannum over five years, so
Speaker 3: again a positive return, still a good return, but a
Speaker 3: bit less than the overall market index over that period.
Speaker 3: What's interesting is in global ESG ETFs, it's the opposite
Speaker 3: trend we've seen so with the global ETFs have actually
Speaker 3: outperformed a lot of the global broad market index ETFs
Speaker 3: and the reason for that is that the ESG ETFs
Speaker 3: globally tend to have a larger weight towards technology companies,
Speaker 3: and technology companies are the sector that's done very well.
Speaker 3: So again it's just due to the underlying sector exposures
Speaker 3: that have really driven why ESG ETFs will have done
Speaker 3: better or worse than the overall market. To give you
Speaker 3: some other examples, and you know, using that same suite
Speaker 3: that Beta Shares offers, their Global Sustainability leaders ETF has
Speaker 3: returned seventeen and a half percent perannum over huge different ideas,
Speaker 3: so quite a quite a strong return. And similarly, van
Speaker 3: K has a similar product that we also include in
Speaker 3: our sustainable portfolios, which is the International Sustainable Equity ETF,
Speaker 3: and it's returned around thirteen percent paranum over that period.
Speaker 2: Interesting, so interesting to hear about that difference, but as
Speaker 2: you said, the underlying companies in there, that makes a
Speaker 2: lot of a lot of sense. Chris, final question from
Speaker 2: me because we were running a little bit short on time.
Speaker 2: Your investment options at stock Spot are obviously heavily focused
Speaker 2: around ETF. So where does stock Spot stand on thematic
Speaker 2: investing and how do you, so I guess, approach it
Speaker 2: with your investors.
Speaker 3: Well, our view is that most people don't really need
Speaker 3: to stray too far from a sensible, low cost, diversified
Speaker 3: portfolio of very indexed ETF So you don't really need
Speaker 3: sustainable in ETFs to be successful, and most of our
Speaker 3: clients don't have sorry, not sustainable ets but rather thematic ETFs.
Speaker 3: Most people don't have thematic ETFs in their portfolios and
Speaker 3: they do absolutely fine, But we do notice there's a
Speaker 3: group of people that want to have a bit more
Speaker 3: say over what stocks are in their portfolio ultimately and
Speaker 3: which sectors they have exposure to. And so it's those
Speaker 3: clients that want a bit more control that we offer
Speaker 3: a range of different thematic options that they can add
Speaker 3: into their portfolio. But importantly they can't put their whole
Speaker 3: portfolio in those thematic ETFs. We limit it to about
Speaker 3: twenty percent of their overall portfolio, and the reason is
Speaker 3: that we really want to balance the risk that these
Speaker 3: these ETFs bring, and by allocating too much more than that,
Speaker 3: you lose a lot of the diversification benefits, and actually
Speaker 3: we believe take too much risk. So we allow clients
Speaker 3: to add two or three of these thematic ETFs to
Speaker 3: their portfolio of their choice. We can help them pick them.
Speaker 3: We can we create these bundles of thematic ETFs, which
Speaker 3: are like ETFs in a similar category, where we choose
Speaker 3: them for them, or people can choose these thematic ETFs individually.
Speaker 3: And we do see a small group of our clients
Speaker 3: going down this path. What we really try and focus
Speaker 3: on for this group of clients is to help educate
Speaker 3: them around what are some of the dangers and pitfalls
Speaker 3: of investing in this way and really trying to address
Speaker 3: some of those common challenges. And before the show, I
Speaker 3: mentioned to you that there's been a study that actually
Speaker 3: came out this week around around this specifically, which is
Speaker 3: a fantastic one and i'd certainly suggest that your listeners
Speaker 3: look it up. If they're interested in this space. And
Speaker 3: the studies called mind the gap, and it was looking
Speaker 3: at what they describe as the behavioral gap with investing,
Speaker 3: which is the difference between the returns the actual funds
Speaker 3: earn or ETFs earn verse the returns that investors in
Speaker 3: those funds receive. And what this study actually found was
Speaker 3: that sector ETFs, or these thematic ETFs focused on a
Speaker 3: sector of the market. When people invest into those, the
Speaker 3: returns that they earn are two point six percent perannum
Speaker 3: less than the returns of the ETFs themselves. And the
Speaker 3: reason for this is largely driven by the fact that
Speaker 3: people gravitate towards thematic ETFs at exactly the wrong time,
Speaker 3: after they've already performed well and everyone's already talking about them,
Speaker 3: and everyone's already excited about them, and it's at that
Speaker 3: point that they tend not to perform well over the
Speaker 3: next few years. And interestingly, this same study found that
Speaker 3: diversified portfolios that contain ETFs of lots of different asset
Speaker 3: classes or funds of different asset classes actually perform most
Speaker 3: closely with what investors in those funds receive, so the
Speaker 3: gap was much smaller. And what this shows is that
Speaker 3: if people are well diversified, you know, there's less life
Speaker 3: to be chasing whatever's hot, and they're more likely to
Speaker 3: stick to a strategy and not be focused on market timing.
Speaker 3: And so the point really is that if people are
Speaker 3: focused on thematic ETFs in their portfolio, to be very
Speaker 3: careful to not just pick them because they're hot at
Speaker 3: the moment. And if you are picking them because they're
Speaker 3: hot at the moment, make sure that you've got an
Speaker 3: appropriate time horizon to actually realize returns from them, because
Speaker 3: it's quite likely if you're buying something because it's really
Speaker 3: getting talked about a lot at the moment, then it's
Speaker 3: going to have a period of disappointment that it's going
Speaker 3: to have to go through before you ultimately enjoy great
Speaker 3: returns from it.
Speaker 2: Excellent point and a fascinating note to end on. We'll
Speaker 2: get the report name from you, will pop it in
Speaker 2: our show notes so everyone listening can go and have
Speaker 2: a look themselves if they like.
Speaker 3: Chris.
Speaker 2: It has been an absolute pleasure having you on, as
Speaker 2: it always is, so thank you so much for doing
Speaker 2: such an excellent job of explaining all things for the
Speaker 2: matic ETFs to us and We'll look forward to having
Speaker 2: you back on the show next time.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Tom, and yes, always happy to come back.
Speaker 2: We'll definitely are. We'll definitely get you back Chris very soon.
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Friends with Money podcast,
Speaker 2: But don't forget to jump on our website moneymag dot
Speaker 2: com dot Au for all your financial news needs, or
Speaker 2: you can go grab yourself a copy of the latest
Speaker 2: edition of Money Magazine in all good newsagents. As always,
Speaker 2: Friends of Money will be right back in your podcast
Speaker 2: feeds next week, so until then, I am Tom Watson.
Speaker 2: Goodbye for now.
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