WEBVTT - Does anti-Israel sentiment equal antisemitism? 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:07.280 From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey. 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:13.760 It's Monday, December ninth. Syria is in full blown civil 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:17.680 war as rebel forces who stunned the dictator Bashah al 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:22.440 Assad by taking Aleppo last week, move into the capital Damascus, 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:27.560 Asad has reportedly fled the country. It changes everything in 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:30.480 the Middle East, and at the Australian dot com dot 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:34.279 a U we have live reporting and analysis of this 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:43.040 fast moving story. The fire bombing of a Melbourne synagogue 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:48.040 was terrorism. That's what Anthony Albanezi says is his personal view, 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:52.080 as a manhunt continues for the arsonists and law enforcement 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:55.840 leaders gather this week to consider declaring the attack a 0:00:56.040 --> 0:01:02.720 terror event. It comes after Israeli PM Benjamin Eettana, who 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:06.640 condemned the Albanese government's handling of events since October seven, 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:11.240 twenty twenty three. Nettania who said anti Israel sentiment is 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:15.919 the same as antisemitism. Today, our correspondent Joanni Bisham joins 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:19.720 me to explore one of the thorniest issues of our age, 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:26.400 how we think and talk about the Middle East. Before 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:32.320 we start. Today's episode contains some explicit language. There's outrage 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:35.600 from around the world tonight after an arson attack on 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:40.880 a synagogue in Melbourne's Jewish heartland of Rippon Lee. This 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:44.080 in Melbourne and this in Sydney. 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:49.320 Jewish Australians were barricaded inside Sydney's Great Synagogue last night 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:52.960 after a noisy and aggressive pro Palestinian group decided to 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:55.600 protest on the street right outside. 0:01:56.640 --> 0:02:00.760 After condemnation from Israeli Prime Minister Benjaminettanna who and three 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:03.720 days of pressure led by Josh Fridenberg and Peter Dutton. 0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:08.560 On Sunday, Anthony Alberanzi defended his record on standing up 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:09.680 to antisemitism. 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:14.800 If you want my personal view, quite clearly, terrorism is 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:18.040 something that is aimed at creating fear in the community, 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:23.320 and the atrocities that occurred at the synagogue in Melbourne 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:28.080 clearly were designed to create fear in the community and therefore, 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:34.519 from my personal perspective, certainly fulfill that definition of terrorism. 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:39.400 Joanni Bishan is a senior journalist with The Australian. Johnnie, 0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:43.320 what's your interpretation of Anthony Alberanese's remarks? There is this 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:47.400 a new stance for Albanesi or is this business as 0:02:47.440 --> 0:02:48.079 usual for him? 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:51.560 It's business as usual in the sense that it takes 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:54.600 some time with Albo to. 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:56.320 Take a bold stance and call something what it is. 0:02:56.919 --> 0:03:01.280 So Anthony Alberanesi calling the fire bombing attack on the 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:04.480 ADUs Israel Synagogue as a terrorist act or what he 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:07.799 sees is personally being a terrorist act, well he's doing 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:10.960 what the Jewish community in Australia did in about three seconds. 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:12.880 We all saw what happened, we knew what it was. 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:15.480 The fact it took him two days to pronounce it 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:18.560 as a terrorist act, well that's in keeping. That's bau 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:21.720 for Albow. But he is right in one sense, which 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:25.280 is that the technical definition of a terrorist act is 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:28.600 something that needs to be decided by the law enforcement agencies. 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:29.240 They're going to be. 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:33.320 Meeting on Monday, and in the past it's taken many 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:36.520 months for these vary agencies to figure out whether, for example, 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:38.960 the Link Cafe siege was a terrorist attack or not. 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:42.480 Everyone who watched that new almost on site that they 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:46.000 were watching hostages being held up in a cafe with 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:49.840 a shotgun while they were holding a Shaharta flag, and 0:03:49.880 --> 0:03:50.640 they knew what it was. 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:52.000 They were calling it a terroristack. 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:55.000 But for many months it was described as an instance 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:55.960 of a mentally ill manned. 0:03:56.080 --> 0:03:57.320 So these things can take time. 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:04.760 There's an author called Alex Rifchin who's also co chief 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:09.280 executive of an advocacy group called the Council of Australian Jury. 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:13.680 He's written a book about antisemitism called The Seven Deadly Myths. 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:18.279 In it, he says antisemitism is as diverse as Jewishness. 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:21.240 You can be a Jew if you are very religious, 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:23.520 or even if you have no religious faith at all, 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:26.440 and if you're born into a Jewish family, or if 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:30.039 you're a convert to the religion. Alex Rifchin writes that 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:33.800 antisemitism is similar. You can be an anti Semite if 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:37.400 you despise the Jewish faith on religious grounds, but you 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:41.479 don't hate the ethnic group of Jews, or like the Nazis, 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:44.720 you can hate the Jews as an ethnic group without 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:49.159 really focusing on their religious practices. And then he says 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:53.039 this one can adorn the state of Israel with all 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:58.320 manner of antisemitic conspiracy theory, yet hold Judaism and Jewish 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:01.920 culture in high regard, as has become common in some 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:04.000 sectors of the far left. 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:06.800 Yanni. 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:09.039 This is the idea I'm keen to dig through with 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:13.479 you today, and it's big and complex. On Saturday, Israel's 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:16.120 Prime Minister Benjamin Netna who took to social media to 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:20.839 declare anti Israel sentiment is anti Semitism, and he was 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:25.120 talking particularly about Australia. So let's start with that idea. 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:28.560 Would you agree with NTNYA, who is anti Israel sentiment 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:30.680 the same thing as antisemitism. 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:32.400 Well, the first thing I would start off by saying 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:35.960 is that there's a tendency even among Jews to interpret 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:39.880 Netanya who's phrasing here as any criticism of the government 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:42.880 of Israel or its policies is akin to anti Semitism. 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:46.440 And that's not what I think Netanyahu meant at all. 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:49.920 I think what he's talking about here is the anti 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:54.400 Israel movement that broadly speaking, denies the right of Jews 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:58.279 to live in their ancestral homeland. The anti Israel movement 0:05:58.480 --> 0:06:01.279 at its worst is not one that seeks too state solution. 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:03.920 It's one that actually doesn't seek Israel to exist at all. 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:06.960 But it's also and I guess this is the part 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:09.800 that aligns a little more closely with the Albanesi government. 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:13.279 It's a mindset that tends to apportion all of the 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:16.120 blame for all of the situation in the Middle East 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:20.520 on Israel itself, and that's partly why Netanyahu responded so 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:23.960 forcefully on Friday night with that tweet. So he's responding 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:27.159 to Australia's fresh positioning at the UN and a number 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:30.120 of hostile steps taken by the Albanese government to distance 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:33.680 itself from Israel over the past year, when Israel, with 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:35.880 whom Australia is supposed to be a very warm ally, 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:38.200 was the one that was attacked in the first place 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:39.200 on October seven. 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:43.440 Over the past year and a bit since October seven, 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:46.520 you've been back and forth to Israel, covering the conflict 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:50.080 as it's unfolded, and covering the development of sentiment within 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:54.400 Israel itself. I've been struck in your reporting that Israel 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:57.560 is itself a very diverse place. There have always been 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:00.960 Arab members of the parliament, for example, there our villages 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:04.200 in Israel, and there are plenty of Israelis who strongly 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:07.880 disagree with Netnya, who on vs On all sorts of things. 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:12.360 So how do we square that the idea of Israelis 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:14.880 who don't like Nettnya who and don't like the conduct 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:18.480 of the war. With the idea that anti Israel sentiment 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:21.040 is anti Semitic by definition. 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:22.200 They really are two different things. 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:25.920 So again there's ordinary political dissent and disagreement, and this 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:28.160 is abundant in Israel, as anyone who has been there 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:31.040 will to test, and since the war began last year, 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:34.640 there's been extraordinary disagreement over how the government, for example, 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:37.720 should be negotiating the release of the hostages. And separate 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:42.400 to that, there's ample criticism of Netna who himself. That's 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:46.000 not anti semitism. No one would suggest that that's anti semitism. 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:50.480 But protesters standing outside Central Synagogue in Sydney, holding Jews 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:53.400 here accountable for the actions of the Israeli government and 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:55.960 forcing them to be locked inside the synagogue for their safety, 0:07:56.360 --> 0:07:59.520 that's anti Semitic. Protesting in the streets calling for an 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:03.240 anti five or of violent uprising against Jews, that's anti Semitic. 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:06.240 When the police tell Jews they shouldn't venture into parts 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:08.400 of the city because their safety cannot be assured, as 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:10.840 they were told on October nine last year, there's a 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:14.040 word for that too. So people use the cover of 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:18.560 anti Israel critique to mask an anti Semitism. They're never 0:08:18.600 --> 0:08:22.040 critiquing the government's domestic policies or its foreign policies. They're 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:26.040 critiquing Israel's right to exist and boycotting Jewish products and 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:29.320 blaming Jews in Sydney and Melbourne for events unfolding a 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.360 world away. And that's what I think Bibie was talking about. 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:37.800 Here in Australia. Since October seven, twenty twenty three, we've 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:41.840 seen a few different types of reaction. First, of course, 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:45.520 was the Opera House protest on October nine, where protesters 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:48.720 were chanting something that was either fuck the Jews or. 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:49.679 Where's the Jews? 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:54.400 That has been widely interpreted, particularly in the community, as 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:57.720 anti Semitic as well as anti Israel. What's your take 0:08:57.760 --> 0:08:58.120 on that. 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:01.240 Well, it was a curtain raiser, wasn't like, not just 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:03.920 in terms of the grotesque messaging and violence that we've 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:06.920 seen in the months that followed, but the response from 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:09.960 government at the state and federal level was what. 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:11.440 Many would describe as totally lacking. 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:15.600 There were no arrests, There was yes condemnation, but that 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:19.000 condemnation has always counted in language quite merely on the 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:21.920 tongue and this is where federal labor. 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:24.000 In particular, I feel has repeatedly failed. 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:27.400 For example, why doesn't every statement made by this government 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:30.160 about Israel and Gaza just start with the words release 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:33.679 the hostages, Like, surely that's not a position. 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:34.600 They don't support. 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:37.640 Those words make it into the press statements, but they're 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:42.160 often buried under convoluted statements about restraint and ceasefires. But 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:45.000 generally speaking, my feeling about October nine is. 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:47.520 The leaders were probably. 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:50.120 Experiencing a collective state of denial about what they themselves 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:53.320 were witnessing, and they were probably unwilling to be sensible 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:55.880 and call out what they were witnessing, or they were 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:58.240 hoping it would go away, and that was naive. 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:03.959 So after October nine here in Australia we've seen protests 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:09.200 through city streets every weekend and university encampments inspired by 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:13.240 the ones in America, and at those encampments and on 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:16.280 the protests we've seen a couple of different types of people. 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:19.520 There's people of Middle Eastern descent and then there's white 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:24.040 Australians and they're chanting slogans like Israel is a terrorist state, 0:10:24.559 --> 0:10:28.880 accusing Israel murdering babies. So how do we interpret all 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:31.440 of that from that group of people. Is that level 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:34.480 of protest do you think anti Israel or is it 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:38.439 anti Semitic? And what would be the difference in this context? 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:41.480 I guess I'm asking, is there a way to disagree 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:44.120 with the way Israel is conducting the war in Gaza 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:48.720 from here in Australia and still be an ally to Jews? 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:51.480 Well, to go to what you just mentioned, I would 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:55.439 say it's certainly anti Israel, and many would rightfully argue 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:58.160 that it's flagrantly anti Semitic, as I would as well. 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:02.440 What fascinates me about these cac cries is that the 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:05.400 people saying them seem to display a sort of willful 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:09.800 disregard of Hamas's involvement in this tragedy altogether. So let's 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:13.560 just clear away one thing first. Israelis themselves they're appalled 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:16.400 by the civilian deaths in Gaza, as any sensible human 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:17.000 being would. 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:18.600 Be Bibi himself. 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:21.440 The hardline is in the Israeli government, believe it or not, 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:24.720 they don't want innocent people to die either, but they 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:28.360 do see Hamas as culpable for those tragedies, and rightfully so. 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:31.800 The Australian government seems to hold a slightly different view. 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:35.679 But to the protesters in the streets, with their kafirs 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:40.720 and the signs calling for Antifada and other slogans, I 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:45.400 often wonder why they aren't acknowledging what brave Palestinians in 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:49.520 Gaza are saying themselves, which is that Hamas wilfully endangered 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:52.200 their lives by turning their homes into rocket launching sites, 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:56.640 or that Hamas deliberately embedded itself in hospitals and schools, 0:11:57.080 --> 0:11:59.600 or in the aid camps where the population now seeks shelter, 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:03.280 or that Hamas wasted billions in eight dollars on building tunnels, 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:07.679 and to state the bleeding obvious that Hermas launched this 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:10.280 war and are still holding more than one hundred hostages. 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:14.000 The protesters always have to work very hard to justify 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:18.960 that point, to justify that morally reprehensible starting point. But 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:23.000 to answer your original question, there's a very simple way 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:25.360 to disagree with the war, and that is say whatever 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:29.120 you like about it, have a view, without punctuating your 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:31.800 point or framing your argument by saying that Israel has 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:33.719 no right to exist in the first place and has 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:34.920 no right to defend itself. 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:36.360 It's pretty simple. 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:43.440 Coming up. How did anti Israel sentiment become fashionable for 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:59.800 the progressive left? That's after the break. There are plenty 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:02.160 of Australians you would never show up at a protest, 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:04.839 but for many of them, Palestine has now moved from 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:07.560 the fringe where it was once the pet subject of 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:10.520 the labor left or the Greens for example, to being 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:14.280 now a very fashionable cause. So these are people who 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:17.240 you would normally think of as the progressive left, and 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:21.120 I would think they would describe themselves like that, their 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:25.000 pro gay rights, their pro reconciliation for example. So how 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:28.640 have they ended up being anti Israel although Israel is 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:31.400 really the only place in the Middle East where ideas 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:34.320 that they believe in gay rights and women's rights are 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:35.679 fully embraced. 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:37.760 What I would say is that if you're in your 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:40.880 twenties and political activism is a form of identity and expression, 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:43.480 then you can't sit on the fence. There is an 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:46.160 imperative to voice your moral outrage, and you have to 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:50.000 choose wisely what side you'll take or risk excommunication from 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:52.080 your group, and you have to participate in the rituals 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:54.880 of that group, like posting to social media or sharing 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:57.880 and liking, or attending a protest. So there's a lot 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:00.560 of stake, and the incentives, which are always to be 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:03.080 like to be accepted, are the same as they've always been. 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:06.960 The incentive isn't to be historically literate, it's just to 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:10.400 be aghast at something. And we've seen this before with 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:13.400 Israel and Gaza. We're all partly surrendering ourselves to the 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:16.440 distortion of our own social media algorithms, much as we 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:19.520 did during debates over the vaccines and Trump and Black 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:23.200 Lives Matter and Ukraine and Russia. What I would say 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:26.520 is that it would seem to me that in this debate, 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:30.920 all roads lead back to where our attention is being focused, 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:39.080 the information we're being provided, and in large respect, social media. 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:42.560 So here in Australia there are some very vocal Jewish 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:45.960 people who say Israel doesn't represent me. I don't want 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:48.840 to be included in this group who believes that even 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:51.480 Israel has a right to exist. How do you think 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:55.520 those sentiments, express very vocally by certain people here have 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:57.440 influenced the bigger conversation. 0:14:58.480 --> 0:14:59.480 I'm not sure if they have. 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:02.720 I know that there is a vocal minority that exists 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:05.560 and who hold that view, But they are again a 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:09.440 vocal minority, and they are part of a vanishingly small 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:12.480 minority of the Jewish population in this country, which, for 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:14.240 anyone wondering, is also tiny. 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:18.800 It's about one hundred thousand strong nationally. I would say the. 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:22.760 Overwhelming majority of Jews in this country are Zionus who 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:26.080 believe in Jewish self determination and the right of Jews 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:28.960 to live in their ancestral homeland. And I believe a 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:31.640 bulk of them also live in hope of a country 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:35.000 that's at peace with its Arab neighbors. And if you 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:37.880 think that's not possible, just consider there is peace between 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:41.320 Israel and Jordan, Israel and Egypt. These were countries with 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:44.160 which Israel was once fiercely at war, but no longer. 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:49.520 So it's not impossible, but it is impossible while genocidal 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:52.600 Iranian proxy groups like Hamas and tresbolare running around destroying 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:54.960 the joint and destroying the lives of their own populations. 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:05.800 Joli Bishan is a senior tojournalist with The Australian. He's 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:09.080 reported for US multiple times from the Middle East this year, 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:12.880 and also writes our must read business column margin call. 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:15.320 You can check out Yo on his work right now 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:17.800 at the Australian dot com dot au