WEBVTT - Stalked to death: Laura Richards Pt.2

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<v Speaker 1>The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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<v Speaker 1>Detective sy a side of life the average person is

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<v Speaker 1>never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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<v Speaker 1>For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I did for a living. I was a

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<v Speaker 1>homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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<v Speaker 1>The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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<v Speaker 1>from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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<v Speaker 1>and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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<v Speaker 1>of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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<v Speaker 1>no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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<v Speaker 1>Join me now as I take you into this world.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to part two of my chat with renowned

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<v Speaker 1>criminal behavioral analyst Laura Richards.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome back, Laura, Thank you good to be here with you.

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<v Speaker 1>We have got so much to talk about and unpack.

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<v Speaker 1>I find the work that you do fascinating, But the

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<v Speaker 1>thing that's really coming across is that you're looking for

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<v Speaker 1>solutions to prevent crime. Having spent the majority of my

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<v Speaker 1>career as a homicide detective, I was a reactive investigator

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<v Speaker 1>a crime had happened, and then I'd try and solve

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<v Speaker 1>the crime. The thing I missed and what I would

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<v Speaker 1>have liked to do is prevent the crimes through proactive investigation.

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<v Speaker 1>You've identified criminal behaviors that a red flags indicators, and

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<v Speaker 1>I know you've been very prominent when you talk about

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<v Speaker 1>the stalking cases. Do you want to talk to us

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<v Speaker 1>about what it is about stalking that causes you so

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<v Speaker 1>much concern? Like I feel silly saying that question, because

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<v Speaker 1>it's obvious if you're a stalker, something is not right.

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<v Speaker 1>That's my take on it from a detective or just

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<v Speaker 1>as a member of society. If you're stalking, there's problems. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think even if you take the word stalking,

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<v Speaker 2>it's still used in a comedic sense of I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>stalking you high. It's seen as something that's funny rather

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<v Speaker 2>than something that's quite sinister and insidious and actually really

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<v Speaker 2>terrifying when it happens to you. And my first five

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<v Speaker 2>years working at New Scotland Yard on stranger rate, murder

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<v Speaker 2>and abduction cases, majority of them the offenders when we

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<v Speaker 2>caught them, we would call them predatory stalkers. They were

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<v Speaker 2>doing indecent exposures. They were doing lots of gateway crimes

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<v Speaker 2>that we wouldn't necessarily called stalking, and so the stalking

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<v Speaker 2>would be missed. And when we think about it in

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<v Speaker 2>the predatory sense, they're the most dangerous types of offenders,

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<v Speaker 2>but we often also see it with domestic violence offenders

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<v Speaker 2>the course of controllers. And one of the cases that

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<v Speaker 2>really alerted me to the risks and dangers myself when

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<v Speaker 2>I worked at New Scotland Yard was the murder of

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<v Speaker 2>a young woman called Claire Burnell who was shot dead

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<v Speaker 2>in Harvey Nichols. And it was in two thousand and five,

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<v Speaker 2>September thirteenth, two thousand and five, and I was working

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<v Speaker 2>late at new Scotland Yard and it came on the

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<v Speaker 2>news headlines that the news presenter said two people have

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<v Speaker 2>been shot dead in Harvey Nichols. And I thought that

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<v Speaker 2>sounds odd, two people being shot dead. And then my

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<v Speaker 2>pager went and you know, my phone went that I

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<v Speaker 2>was asked by one of the heads, one of the commanders,

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<v Speaker 2>would I review the case that the two people who

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<v Speaker 2>were shot dead. Well, Claire Bernow was working in Harvey Nichols.

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<v Speaker 2>She was working on one of the makeup counters. But

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<v Speaker 2>the other person who was shot there was someone called

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<v Speaker 2>Michael Pesh. He shot her and then he shot himself,

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<v Speaker 2>So our homicide detectives went in to Harvey Nichols. It

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't like an active shooter situation. It was a what

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<v Speaker 2>we found out to be a relationship that Claire didn't

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<v Speaker 2>want anymore. And this guy worked as part of the

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<v Speaker 2>security team at Harvey Nichols and he had actually lost

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<v Speaker 2>his job because Claire had reported him for his behavior.

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<v Speaker 2>And when I started to do a desktop review, because

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<v Speaker 2>the commander said, I want to know everything about this case,

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<v Speaker 2>what was known to us, and I did the review

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<v Speaker 2>and found out that she had reported multiple times to us,

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<v Speaker 2>the police, and that we didn't really understand what was

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<v Speaker 2>going on. And you know, I say that because the

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<v Speaker 2>language of stalking wasn't understood and it wasn't used. Claire

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<v Speaker 2>was saying that she was terrified of this man, Michael Pesh,

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<v Speaker 2>who she had dated on three occasions, and that he

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<v Speaker 2>had declared his love for her on date number two

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<v Speaker 2>and it made her feel very uncomfortable. And date number three,

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<v Speaker 2>he forced her to drive to her home address and

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<v Speaker 2>he refused to move from her home address, and she

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<v Speaker 2>just didn't know what to do because she couldn't get

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<v Speaker 2>him out. But it was the first time that she felt,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, she didn't want this relationship. She didn't want

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<v Speaker 2>to upset him. She was trying to let him down gently,

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<v Speaker 2>but she told him, I don't want to go out

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<v Speaker 2>with you anymore. Well, the next time she encounters him,

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<v Speaker 2>she had finished work in Harvey Nichols and had gone

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<v Speaker 2>home on the tube and he had blocked her exit

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<v Speaker 2>from the tube. He was following her and on the

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<v Speaker 2>same carriage as her, and she went to get out

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<v Speaker 2>and he blocked her exit, and she stepped forward and

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<v Speaker 2>he stepped forward to her, so they were nose to nose,

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<v Speaker 2>and he smiled, and she said, get off of me,

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<v Speaker 2>or I'll call the police. And he says, as he

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<v Speaker 2>strokes her face and smiles, if you call the police,

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<v Speaker 2>I will kill you. And if I can't have you,

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<v Speaker 2>no one can. This was written on the crime report Gary,

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<v Speaker 2>and I literally the hairs on my arms and the

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<v Speaker 2>back of my neck went up, knowing that he meant

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<v Speaker 2>what he said. And that was her first report to

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<v Speaker 2>the police. She had told her friend who worked in

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<v Speaker 2>Harvey Nichols as well. When she got home what had

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<v Speaker 2>been said, and the friend said, you must tell the

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<v Speaker 2>head of security at Harvey Nichols, and that's what they did.

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<v Speaker 2>They made the call. They met with the head of

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<v Speaker 2>security at Harvey Nichols and he said, we must report

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<v Speaker 2>this to the police. He took it very seriously, so

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<v Speaker 2>that was the first report, and you know, from there

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<v Speaker 2>on out, I found out a lot of other things

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<v Speaker 2>that had happened. But she reported him. He was arrested

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<v Speaker 2>when he was in uniform in Harvey Nichols and as

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<v Speaker 2>a security guard, and of course that didn't go down well,

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<v Speaker 2>and then he ended up being balled. And it was

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<v Speaker 2>when he was bailed. He left the country, went back

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<v Speaker 2>into the country with a firearm, and he had actually

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<v Speaker 2>been suspended at this time from Harvey Nichols. The head

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<v Speaker 2>of security took it that seriously and then he lost

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<v Speaker 2>his job and he blamed Claire for it. And he

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<v Speaker 2>went back into Harvey Nichols at twenty to eight. He

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<v Speaker 2>realized all the security guards had been told not to

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<v Speaker 2>let him in, but he knew the layout of the store.

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<v Speaker 2>He went in through a side door and we had

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<v Speaker 2>eyewitnesses confirmed that they saw him. Claire was looking at her,

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<v Speaker 2>what saying, we're almost done here because they were going

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<v Speaker 2>to wend their shift in twenty minutes, and he went

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<v Speaker 2>up behind her, shot her once in the back of

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<v Speaker 2>the head, four times in the face to obliterate her.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, my colleagues went in and that was

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<v Speaker 2>the crime scene that they found. But for me unraveling

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<v Speaker 2>all the things that happened, well a lot of it

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<v Speaker 2>was on our crime reports system, and I said, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's not good. She had told us these things. She

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<v Speaker 2>was in fear of her life, and we arrested him,

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<v Speaker 2>we interviewed him, but then he was bailed. And the

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<v Speaker 2>first thing that the first bail, he went round to

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<v Speaker 2>see her immediately and threatened her. And then he's re arrested,

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<v Speaker 2>but he's bailed again. And that's the problem that it

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<v Speaker 2>was only ever seen as a harassment case, a Section

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<v Speaker 2>two harrissment, even though he made threats to kill, and

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<v Speaker 2>he was bailed because it wasn't seen as that serious.

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<v Speaker 2>And one of our officers who interviewed him, she was

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<v Speaker 2>a probationer, just off of probation, no supervision, which is

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<v Speaker 2>why for me it's always I look to the supervisors.

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<v Speaker 2>And she interviewed him and he said, look, I just

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<v Speaker 2>love her. I just want to tell her that I

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<v Speaker 2>love her. Come on office, so you've been in love

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<v Speaker 2>before and she kind of yeah, you know, I understand that,

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<v Speaker 2>but that wasn't what he was and who he was

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<v Speaker 2>if she had understood his behavior better, but she didn't

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<v Speaker 2>because she was a probationers. She didn't have experience, she

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<v Speaker 2>didn't have a supervisor helping her, and things you know,

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<v Speaker 2>ended up in a catastrophic event.

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<v Speaker 1>Just on that that taking it back, but I love her,

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<v Speaker 1>and the officer buying into that, I can just see.

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<v Speaker 1>I've got a vision of how that plays out in

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<v Speaker 1>the police station. You've got a probationary constable taking that report,

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<v Speaker 1>interviewed him and look, he's not going to harm her.

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<v Speaker 1>He says that he loves her. Like to me, that's warning, warning, warning,

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<v Speaker 1>but that I suppose that comes with experience and seeing

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<v Speaker 1>the end results as you would have. But I imagine that

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<v Speaker 1>probationary constable then goes to a supervisor and the briefing

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<v Speaker 1>would be, I look like, I think he's a risk

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<v Speaker 1>because he said he loves her. I think he's he

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<v Speaker 1>just wants to get back together again, So the supervisor

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<v Speaker 1>would be going, ah, okay, that's okay, and then the

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<v Speaker 1>case is forgotten. What you've just outlined there. I was

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<v Speaker 1>in horror right from the yeah I love you on

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<v Speaker 1>the second date type situation. That was warning, warning, there's

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<v Speaker 1>a potential problem there. You've talked us through what's happened,

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<v Speaker 1>what points should have something been done differently? And what

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<v Speaker 1>is that thing that should have been done differently, whether

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<v Speaker 1>it's a bail, whether it's a courts How do you

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<v Speaker 1>think we resolve a situation like that so it doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>happen again.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, in this case changed my life, and

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<v Speaker 2>it changed my whole career and my whole way of thinking.

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<v Speaker 2>So it really did have an impact because I met

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<v Speaker 2>her mother and I learned so much more from her mum, Tricia,

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<v Speaker 2>of what was going on behind the scenes. And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>Tricia said to me, when Claire came to me and

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<v Speaker 2>told me everything that was happening, I never ever thought

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<v Speaker 2>that he would kill her because that happens to people

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<v Speaker 2>in the newspapers, not to people like us from Tunbridge Wells.

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<v Speaker 2>And that was the first learning point that families never

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<v Speaker 2>expected to end up in that place, and nor did Claire.

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<v Speaker 2>But the risks were very apparent. And Tricia was giving

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<v Speaker 2>her advice as a mum, saying, oh, well, maybe he's

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<v Speaker 2>just fallen in love. But Claire was saying, no, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't love him, and what am I meant to

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<v Speaker 2>say to him? You know? She felt so uncomfortable. And

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<v Speaker 2>then he was using other people in Harvey Nichols to

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<v Speaker 2>make his case to her of why she should give

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<v Speaker 2>him a second chance. He used other people to stalk

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<v Speaker 2>her and pressure her. So if we had done our

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<v Speaker 2>jobs right in terms of collecting all the evidence, we

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<v Speaker 2>would have got a proper statement from Claire. I mean

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<v Speaker 2>it was half a page long. And yet when I

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<v Speaker 2>sat down with Trisha and when I dug into the case,

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<v Speaker 2>there was so much more to it. The head of

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<v Speaker 2>security really intrigued me and I wanted to know how

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<v Speaker 2>he took it seriously, and it came down to experience. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>He was a former police officer. He understood how dangerous

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<v Speaker 2>Pesh was. But you know what could we have done differently, Well,

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<v Speaker 2>we could have got a statement from him and looked

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<v Speaker 2>at in his investigation, but we didn't. So to sack someone,

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<v Speaker 2>you have to have a whole documented history of you know,

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<v Speaker 2>going through the oral warnings, the written warnings, the suspension,

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<v Speaker 2>and then you fire. But the officers didn't take the

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<v Speaker 2>information that he offered them, and that was a huge

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<v Speaker 2>problem for me because I felt that on review of

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<v Speaker 2>the case that you've got the new and the old.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, back off, old timer, we're the police, don't

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<v Speaker 2>tell us what to do. I can imagine that kind

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<v Speaker 2>of attitude, and unfortunately it ended up with Claire being

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<v Speaker 2>brutally killed because if they had looked at that investigation,

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<v Speaker 2>they would have found out that he was asking colleagues

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<v Speaker 2>what kind of sentence do you get for murder in

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<v Speaker 2>this country? He was asking questions that showed intent that

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<v Speaker 2>he planned to do something far more odious and sinister,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's exactly what he did. So I come I

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<v Speaker 2>use this case in training a lot because there's so

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<v Speaker 2>much more that we could have done and should have done.

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<v Speaker 2>There was a section four A sorry, Section four harassment.

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<v Speaker 2>There are two tiers to the Harassment Act, which really

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<v Speaker 2>came in for stalking, but the section four carries up

0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:28.520
<v Speaker 2>to five years in prison. But they didn't even look

0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:30.480
<v Speaker 2>at it as a Section four case. It just got

0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:32.920
<v Speaker 2>dropped to a Section two, which is you go to

0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:37.280
<v Speaker 2>magistrates court maximum six months, but most get a slap

0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:40.480
<v Speaker 2>on the wrist. So that's where the stalking law came in.

0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:42.920
<v Speaker 2>There wasn't a stalking law per se, and that's what

0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:45.520
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to change. But there was a threat to

0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:48.160
<v Speaker 2>kill and there was a Section four harrissmen, and the

0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:52.800
<v Speaker 2>CPS dropped it to a much lesser and that was

0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:57.200
<v Speaker 2>hugely problematic. So the investigation was problematic because oh, he

0:12:57.320 --> 0:12:59.800
<v Speaker 2>just said he loves her, he doesn't mean to harm her.

0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:03.920
<v Speaker 2>Whole understanding of what Claire was telling us, you know,

0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:08.199
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't understood as stalking is serious. That he didn't

0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:11.680
<v Speaker 2>physically hit her, but what he was threatening, the way

0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:14.960
<v Speaker 2>that he delivered the threat was so chilling, and yet

0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:16.880
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't followed up on. So there were there were

0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:19.719
<v Speaker 2>so many junctures where I call it, you take a

0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:23.840
<v Speaker 2>domino out and you change, you know, that escalation of behavior.

0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:27.320
<v Speaker 2>And look, he still could have been fixated, right, he

0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:29.840
<v Speaker 2>could have gone to prison and served let's say six

0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:33.600
<v Speaker 2>months or let's say eighteen weeks. He still might have

0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:36.440
<v Speaker 2>come out and been fixated on Claire or he then

0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:39.319
<v Speaker 2>moves on to the next woman. He always would have

0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:41.200
<v Speaker 2>been a problem. And that's why I always say to

0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:44.080
<v Speaker 2>police and others that I train deal with it right time,

0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:47.040
<v Speaker 2>first time round, because they're still going to be a

0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:49.559
<v Speaker 2>problem down the line. And that's the nature of fixation

0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:51.480
<v Speaker 2>and obsessive behavior.

0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:57.440
<v Speaker 1>Okay with that, whether the courts have a responsibility as well.

0:13:57.600 --> 0:13:59.880
<v Speaker 1>But whinding it back to the figures you were to

0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:01.880
<v Speaker 1>talking about one in two if they've been in an

0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:05.560
<v Speaker 1>intimate relationship and they're stalking and they make a threat

0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:09.920
<v Speaker 1>to kill. So once that's done, just based on past

0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:13.240
<v Speaker 1>behaviors statistics, there's a fifty to fifty chance this person

0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:16.840
<v Speaker 1>might be killed. Imagine the resources that would be applied

0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:20.520
<v Speaker 1>if you came out with that saying this person is

0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:22.640
<v Speaker 1>going to be killed. But we miss the point, don't we.

0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:26.400
<v Speaker 1>So it is a large part of it is about education.

0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:31.680
<v Speaker 1>And you use the story of the retired, wise, battle

0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:37.240
<v Speaker 1>hardened cop that's now working security, knowing from his experience

0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:41.360
<v Speaker 1>how dangerous this is. But in the police it's been missed.

0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:47.040
<v Speaker 1>But that's tragic, isn't it. So like every part of

0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:50.440
<v Speaker 1>when you're breaking down the incidents, red flag red flag

0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:54.600
<v Speaker 1>concern concern and it wasn't circumvented. Do you think there's

0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:58.160
<v Speaker 1>and I want to delve into coercive control, but we're

0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:02.160
<v Speaker 1>stalking a situation like that, because invariably a stalker doesn't

0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:04.840
<v Speaker 1>back off after the first warning, like Okay, we're going

0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:07.320
<v Speaker 1>to go to the police AVO. Then they breach the AVO,

0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:10.680
<v Speaker 1>they go to the court, blah blah blah. What about

0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:14.240
<v Speaker 1>electronic monitoring on people like that? Do you think that

0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:17.880
<v Speaker 1>there's something that we've just got to adopt technology like

0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:19.080
<v Speaker 1>ankle bracelet.

0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:22.560
<v Speaker 2>I do, and I don't know why we're not doing it.

0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:26.120
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's the simplest thing really to do, to

0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:29.080
<v Speaker 2>use technology. We know that orders on their own, a

0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:31.240
<v Speaker 2>piece of paper doesn't stop a stalker. So I think

0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:33.240
<v Speaker 2>we've just got to get real to the fact that

0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:35.240
<v Speaker 2>a piece of paper saying don't do it again, it

0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:37.680
<v Speaker 2>is not going to stop them. But that's also where

0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:39.440
<v Speaker 2>I would like to see them on the same register

0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:42.040
<v Speaker 2>as sex offenders. You know, they some of them are

0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:44.720
<v Speaker 2>sex offenders, and some of them are incredibly dangerous who

0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:48.000
<v Speaker 2>go on to murder. And so if you start one woman,

0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:52.080
<v Speaker 2>two three, you know, why aren't we putting them on

0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:55.600
<v Speaker 2>the same database as terrorists and sex offenders and problem

0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:57.440
<v Speaker 2>solving them in the same way. And some of them

0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:00.680
<v Speaker 2>do need a psychiatric intervention, so we're just going to

0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:02.680
<v Speaker 2>it's a revolving door. We keep having to deal with

0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:05.920
<v Speaker 2>the same people and their histories aren't being joined up.

0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:08.800
<v Speaker 2>And that's what's for me, the twenty three year campaign

0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:12.360
<v Speaker 2>to join up violent men's histories. It's predominantly men, not

0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:16.360
<v Speaker 2>always exclusively, but you know, it's these are power and

0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:21.600
<v Speaker 2>control related crimes, and the police, the courts, the system

0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:23.760
<v Speaker 2>has to take the power and control back and away

0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:27.040
<v Speaker 2>from them from these dangerous individuals, so you have to

0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:29.520
<v Speaker 2>problem solve them, and with that you need a multi

0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:30.600
<v Speaker 2>agency response.

0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:34.920
<v Speaker 1>And are you making headway in that front? Correct me

0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:39.320
<v Speaker 1>if I'm wrong, But twenty thirteen the world's first national

0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:44.680
<v Speaker 1>stalking Advocacy service. So you're starting to get the message out.

0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:47.840
<v Speaker 1>But what has actually happened with what you're promoting and

0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:51.200
<v Speaker 1>what you're pushing. What steps forward have we taken or

0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:53.720
<v Speaker 1>do we just sit here horrified, going this shouldn't happen

0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:56.640
<v Speaker 1>and do nothing and wait until the next one happens

0:16:56.640 --> 0:16:58.480
<v Speaker 1>and we are how did that occur.

0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:01.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I mean my work always been evidence based and

0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:04.840
<v Speaker 2>Claire Bernow's case was one of many that I use

0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:08.760
<v Speaker 2>to talk to parliamentarians about in terms of changing the

0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:10.919
<v Speaker 2>law and creating the stalking law. And then when you

0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:14.240
<v Speaker 2>talk out in the media, victims contact you. And I

0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:17.119
<v Speaker 2>was receiving hundreds and hundreds of contacts every time I

0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:20.320
<v Speaker 2>talked about stalking. So that's where Paladin came from. The

0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:23.639
<v Speaker 2>National Stalking Advocacy Service, the first of its kind in

0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:26.560
<v Speaker 2>the world. But we're still not doing enough, you know,

0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:29.520
<v Speaker 2>And I think predominantly we spend too long looking at

0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:31.880
<v Speaker 2>what the victim did or didn't do, and we don't

0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:35.200
<v Speaker 2>spend enough time looking at the perpetrator and closing them down.

0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:39.280
<v Speaker 2>And that's the bit that all across the world is

0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:44.280
<v Speaker 2>missing the accountability and responsibility on the perpetrator and working

0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:47.919
<v Speaker 2>in a multi agency forum, just like we do with

0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:51.399
<v Speaker 2>the most dangerous terrorists, the most dangerous sex offenders, to

0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:54.840
<v Speaker 2>look at every aspect of their life and work with

0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:57.360
<v Speaker 2>them to create that change. And that's where it's Some

0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:01.879
<v Speaker 2>do need psychiatric assessment, some not all of them, but

0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:04.440
<v Speaker 2>often it is about power and control. That's what they're

0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:06.720
<v Speaker 2>trying that's what's motivating them. So you've got to take

0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:08.920
<v Speaker 2>it away from them. And we've still got so much

0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:14.200
<v Speaker 2>more work to do. The resistance to tackling this, whether

0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:19.439
<v Speaker 2>it's in Australia, America, the UK, Canada, there's been such resistance, Gary,

0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:22.879
<v Speaker 2>and I really feel it's because most the majority of

0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:26.440
<v Speaker 2>legislators are men and it just doesn't happen to them,

0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:29.199
<v Speaker 2>So they just don't understand how frightening it is to

0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:32.680
<v Speaker 2>be a woman moving about in this world. And men

0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:34.760
<v Speaker 2>only get it when they have a daughter and then

0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:38.840
<v Speaker 2>she's dating and then they realize, you know, what the

0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:42.440
<v Speaker 2>risks are. But oftentimes, you know, by the grace of God,

0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:46.320
<v Speaker 2>go I. And that's why we need more legislators, and

0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:50.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, senior folk who are women, Because with Sarah Everett,

0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:53.320
<v Speaker 2>all these women came out and talked about how we

0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:56.600
<v Speaker 2>have to risk manage our day, even going out, you know,

0:18:56.680 --> 0:18:59.440
<v Speaker 2>to go for a rum. Women are murdered. Oh wish

0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:01.800
<v Speaker 2>she shouldn't have been wearing headphones, or she shouldn't have

0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:03.560
<v Speaker 2>been looking at her phone. Oh well, she shouldn't have

0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:06.560
<v Speaker 2>left her drink unattended. We spend far too long looking

0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:09.400
<v Speaker 2>at what the victim did, and not focusing on the offender.

0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:11.320
<v Speaker 2>And that's been really the hill that I'm going to

0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:16.040
<v Speaker 2>die on, the of transferring you know, the lens onto

0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:19.200
<v Speaker 2>the offender. And it's kind of what Justsel Pellicott's saying

0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:23.040
<v Speaker 2>in France, right, the shame needs to switch sides, that

0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:27.040
<v Speaker 2>we need to flip our gaze onto the perpetrators and

0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:29.520
<v Speaker 2>focus on them rather than keep saying that we don't

0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:31.919
<v Speaker 2>believe victims, we don't take it seriously. Oh, they're not

0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:34.440
<v Speaker 2>going to escalate to murder. That's the stuff of movies.

0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:37.760
<v Speaker 2>I hear police officers say this to victims every day,

0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:41.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, and it's really disheartening when you look at

0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:44.360
<v Speaker 2>the increasing femicide rate. So I kind of feel I'm

0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:46.359
<v Speaker 2>still in the eye of the storm of my work.

0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:49.280
<v Speaker 2>It's not finished. I'm not just a podcaster. I put

0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:52.359
<v Speaker 2>this stuff on a podcast because I think people learn

0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:56.280
<v Speaker 2>at different times, and podcasting is very intimate that you

0:19:56.359 --> 0:20:00.080
<v Speaker 2>hear things I have on crime analyst, judges, magistrates, probation officers,

0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:04.840
<v Speaker 2>police officers, psychiatrists, you know, the full gamut of people

0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:08.280
<v Speaker 2>who listen. They're the ones that can create the change.

0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:13.520
<v Speaker 2>And you know, the media form of podcasting makes this

0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:17.320
<v Speaker 2>knowledge now so much more accessible. That's why I do

0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:20.400
<v Speaker 2>the podcast to raise awareness and to put the solutions

0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:23.959
<v Speaker 2>out there. But it's about people grabbing those things and

0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:26.760
<v Speaker 2>being really committed to want to create change and not

0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:30.439
<v Speaker 2>just paying lip service to it, which is what happened

0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:32.600
<v Speaker 2>in the wake of Sarah Everett. There was no grip,

0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:36.439
<v Speaker 2>there was no grasp from legislators. They didn't. They voted

0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:40.959
<v Speaker 2>down having the Register of serial domestic abuse as is stalkings,

0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:42.800
<v Speaker 2>and that will make the biggest change.

0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:46.920
<v Speaker 1>I think who would vote that down? I don't see

0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:49.960
<v Speaker 1>any harm in having a register like that. I think

0:20:50.040 --> 0:20:54.040
<v Speaker 1>the evidence supports the need for it. And why people

0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:56.639
<v Speaker 1>think that's an invasion the privacy will be in stalked

0:20:56.680 --> 0:21:00.199
<v Speaker 1>by someone's an invasion of privacy too, Like I not,

0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:02.760
<v Speaker 1>for the life of me see why people wouldn't buy

0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:03.080
<v Speaker 1>into that.

0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:06.040
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's it, Gary, it's who are we protecting? Are

0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:07.560
<v Speaker 2>we protecting the right people?

0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:08.040
<v Speaker 1>You know?

0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:11.240
<v Speaker 2>And you can have that debate in court if you

0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:14.639
<v Speaker 2>decide that you're going to put the perpetrators right to

0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:17.800
<v Speaker 2>privacy ahead of the victims right to safety. And for

0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:21.440
<v Speaker 2>too long it's been skewed to perpetrators and that needs

0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:23.880
<v Speaker 2>to be course corrected because as long as you're making

0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:27.000
<v Speaker 2>defensible decisions i e. They've done A, B and C

0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:30.119
<v Speaker 2>and that's where the risk assessment comes in, then you

0:21:30.119 --> 0:21:31.160
<v Speaker 2>can defend your.

0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:36.960
<v Speaker 1>Decision on that risk assessment. Do you want to break

0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:40.280
<v Speaker 1>that down? That's DASH? Is that the acronym for it.

0:21:40.200 --> 0:21:43.639
<v Speaker 2>The domestic abuse? Yeah, domestic abuse, stalk, king and harassment

0:21:43.680 --> 0:21:45.840
<v Speaker 2>and on a base violence risk model. Hence why we

0:21:45.880 --> 0:21:47.720
<v Speaker 2>call it the DASH because it's a real mouthful.

0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:51.480
<v Speaker 1>Just break that down the type of things and how

0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:54.160
<v Speaker 1>that can be used and to be used by law

0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:57.240
<v Speaker 1>enforcement officers so they can have a look at it

0:21:57.280 --> 0:21:59.840
<v Speaker 1>and quantify what the risks are.

0:22:00.359 --> 0:22:04.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean the idea behind it was having profiled.

0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:06.199
<v Speaker 2>I didn't just profile murders. I took four hundred and

0:22:06.200 --> 0:22:09.840
<v Speaker 2>fifty domestic violence, sexual offenders and serious offenders and looked

0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:13.200
<v Speaker 2>at them backwards their histories and then one hundred and

0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:16.320
<v Speaker 2>fourteen thousand allegations of domestic abuse in one year in

0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:19.200
<v Speaker 2>two thousand and one that was recorded and reported to police.

0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:21.720
<v Speaker 2>And out of that I looked at the patterns because

0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:25.480
<v Speaker 2>you can't just take murder. And when I presented on

0:22:25.560 --> 0:22:28.560
<v Speaker 2>those patterns. The Deputy Assistant Commissioner at New Scotland Yard

0:22:28.640 --> 0:22:31.879
<v Speaker 2>said in front of three hundred officers that research is

0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:34.080
<v Speaker 2>really interesting, but what difference does it make to the

0:22:34.160 --> 0:22:36.480
<v Speaker 2>late term van driver at three in the morning. How

0:22:36.520 --> 0:22:40.040
<v Speaker 2>does she respond differently to the domestic violence call out?

0:22:40.840 --> 0:22:43.520
<v Speaker 2>And that's where this set of questions came from. So

0:22:43.840 --> 0:22:48.720
<v Speaker 2>I worked with lots of different police officers, agencies, specialist agencies,

0:22:48.880 --> 0:22:52.520
<v Speaker 2>victims groups, We ran focus groups and this took years

0:22:52.560 --> 0:22:55.320
<v Speaker 2>to do and created what was first called the SPECS

0:22:55.320 --> 0:22:57.520
<v Speaker 2>plus and then it evolved into the DASH. So it's

0:22:57.520 --> 0:22:59.919
<v Speaker 2>a set of questions that there's a call out to

0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:03.040
<v Speaker 2>the police, or it might even be housing or education

0:23:03.320 --> 0:23:06.440
<v Speaker 2>or health. Anyone can use this tool and you ask

0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:09.600
<v Speaker 2>the victim this set of questions and they are the

0:23:09.640 --> 0:23:12.960
<v Speaker 2>mirror because they know the perpetrator the best. They hold

0:23:13.080 --> 0:23:17.200
<v Speaker 2>up the mirror to the perpetrator's behavior and then they

0:23:17.200 --> 0:23:19.919
<v Speaker 2>are the expert on their own situation. And then you

0:23:19.960 --> 0:23:24.119
<v Speaker 2>can start to inform your investigation as well as collect

0:23:24.160 --> 0:23:27.119
<v Speaker 2>evidence as well as understand risk as it's standard, medium

0:23:27.240 --> 0:23:29.359
<v Speaker 2>or high, and if it's high, then it goes to

0:23:29.359 --> 0:23:32.280
<v Speaker 2>a multi agency meeting who problems solve the case and

0:23:32.320 --> 0:23:35.560
<v Speaker 2>they should look at safety planning for the victim, but

0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:39.000
<v Speaker 2>perpetrator risk management and they're two sides of the same

0:23:39.080 --> 0:23:41.560
<v Speaker 2>coin and you have to do the two things together.

0:23:41.920 --> 0:23:45.200
<v Speaker 2>So across England and Wales we had every police force

0:23:45.359 --> 0:23:48.919
<v Speaker 2>using this one toolkit and all partner agencies signed up

0:23:48.960 --> 0:23:52.480
<v Speaker 2>to it and it's a really important tool that is

0:23:52.520 --> 0:23:56.119
<v Speaker 2>evidence based and we reduce murders by using the tool

0:23:56.359 --> 0:23:59.679
<v Speaker 2>and we also saw a reduction in women killing the abuser.

0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:03.560
<v Speaker 2>So we previously in London we would have at least

0:24:03.600 --> 0:24:07.359
<v Speaker 2>six women every year who would kill the abuser because

0:24:07.400 --> 0:24:09.679
<v Speaker 2>there was never an intervention. And then we went to

0:24:09.920 --> 0:24:14.080
<v Speaker 2>zero zero, zero zero zero because women were being believed

0:24:14.119 --> 0:24:17.600
<v Speaker 2>and listened to. And that's an important thing to say

0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:21.040
<v Speaker 2>right here in America with the Menendez brother's case where

0:24:21.040 --> 0:24:23.640
<v Speaker 2>they were victims of course of control and sexual violence

0:24:23.680 --> 0:24:28.360
<v Speaker 2>and then they killed the abusers because they realized that

0:24:28.440 --> 0:24:30.119
<v Speaker 2>no one was going to save them. It was a

0:24:30.119 --> 0:24:33.119
<v Speaker 2>safeguarding failure. So that's where the tool is so important

0:24:33.240 --> 0:24:37.480
<v Speaker 2>for victims, including children, of understanding what's going on for them,

0:24:37.560 --> 0:24:41.320
<v Speaker 2>validating their experience and then using it as information for

0:24:41.400 --> 0:24:45.720
<v Speaker 2>action to understand risk and then get into the risk

0:24:45.800 --> 0:24:46.639
<v Speaker 2>management piece.

0:24:47.160 --> 0:24:50.560
<v Speaker 1>You just mentioned the brothers. I want to talk about

0:24:50.600 --> 0:24:53.520
<v Speaker 1>that because it's very prominent the moment. There's a lot

0:24:53.520 --> 0:24:56.480
<v Speaker 1>of moody going on now and I as I understand

0:24:56.480 --> 0:24:59.000
<v Speaker 1>that it's about whether they should be released from prison.

0:24:59.040 --> 0:25:02.640
<v Speaker 1>What's a bexter that. Because it's on Netflix, it's got

0:25:02.680 --> 0:25:06.360
<v Speaker 1>world wide attention. What's your knowledge and background on that.

0:25:06.880 --> 0:25:10.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I've been covering this case for almost two years

0:25:10.119 --> 0:25:12.439
<v Speaker 2>before it was sort of really talked about as it

0:25:12.520 --> 0:25:16.680
<v Speaker 2>is now in the media, and I was really perplexed

0:25:16.720 --> 0:25:21.840
<v Speaker 2>about the fact that these brothers were well everyone was

0:25:21.880 --> 0:25:24.439
<v Speaker 2>told through the DA's office and the media that they

0:25:24.440 --> 0:25:27.440
<v Speaker 2>were greedy, rich kids. But I remembered at the time,

0:25:27.520 --> 0:25:30.119
<v Speaker 2>the crime scene didn't point to that. The crime scene

0:25:30.119 --> 0:25:35.719
<v Speaker 2>pointed to obliteration, and when children obliterate their parents like that,

0:25:35.760 --> 0:25:38.800
<v Speaker 2>there's something else going on. And so I kind of

0:25:39.080 --> 0:25:41.199
<v Speaker 2>went into the case not knowing what I would find.

0:25:41.440 --> 0:25:44.320
<v Speaker 2>But the biggest challenge for me was understanding why the

0:25:44.400 --> 0:25:48.679
<v Speaker 2>judge made certain decisions. At trial one Court TV, it

0:25:48.720 --> 0:25:51.480
<v Speaker 2>was all televised and it ended up in a hung

0:25:51.560 --> 0:25:55.840
<v Speaker 2>jury because there were two sorry, two juries. They heard

0:25:55.920 --> 0:26:01.119
<v Speaker 2>evidence from fifty three witnesses from school teacher, coaches, and

0:26:01.240 --> 0:26:05.119
<v Speaker 2>family members who all talked about Jose's abuse of the

0:26:05.160 --> 0:26:10.159
<v Speaker 2>two boys. And they had experts like Dr Rambergess who testified,

0:26:10.200 --> 0:26:14.480
<v Speaker 2>having assessteric that he was sexually abused by Jose and

0:26:15.600 --> 0:26:18.399
<v Speaker 2>it resulted in a hung jury. Now, there are a

0:26:18.440 --> 0:26:20.639
<v Speaker 2>number of other things that happened in LA between the

0:26:20.680 --> 0:26:22.879
<v Speaker 2>time of Trial IE and Trial two, like the Rodney

0:26:22.960 --> 0:26:27.600
<v Speaker 2>King case where there were race riots in the wake

0:26:27.760 --> 0:26:30.760
<v Speaker 2>of the acquittal, and then you had oj Simpson eight

0:26:30.840 --> 0:26:35.200
<v Speaker 2>days before Trial two starting being acquitted and the judge,

0:26:35.240 --> 0:26:38.280
<v Speaker 2>the same judge, Judge Stanley Wisberg, presided over both trials,

0:26:38.280 --> 0:26:41.000
<v Speaker 2>and what I couldn't understand in Trial two was why

0:26:41.040 --> 0:26:44.040
<v Speaker 2>he made the decision to not allow all the previous

0:26:44.080 --> 0:26:48.000
<v Speaker 2>witnesses to testify to the abuse. And the DA's office

0:26:48.000 --> 0:26:52.920
<v Speaker 2>made the case that it was irrelevant to hear that evidence. Well,

0:26:53.040 --> 0:26:56.280
<v Speaker 2>it was wholly relevant to the defense in terms of

0:26:57.200 --> 0:26:59.040
<v Speaker 2>the why they did it? This was never a who

0:26:59.080 --> 0:27:01.240
<v Speaker 2>done it? Case? Right, the boys confessed to it. It

0:27:01.320 --> 0:27:03.240
<v Speaker 2>wasn't who done it? Was a why done it? So

0:27:03.280 --> 0:27:07.399
<v Speaker 2>it's wholly relevant and talks to motivation. But Judge Stanley

0:27:07.440 --> 0:27:11.840
<v Speaker 2>Weisberg eviscerated the defense. He then determined that not only

0:27:12.320 --> 0:27:14.680
<v Speaker 2>would he agree that they shouldn't testify, so it was

0:27:14.720 --> 0:27:18.120
<v Speaker 2>only Eric who testified about the abuse. He then decided

0:27:18.160 --> 0:27:20.840
<v Speaker 2>that the defense were not allowed to use the imperfect

0:27:20.880 --> 0:27:24.280
<v Speaker 2>self defense defense, i e. That the boys, in their

0:27:24.320 --> 0:27:26.760
<v Speaker 2>state of mind, they believed that there was a genuine

0:27:26.800 --> 0:27:29.800
<v Speaker 2>fear that they would be killed. Therefore they killed before

0:27:30.160 --> 0:27:33.840
<v Speaker 2>because of the thousand cuts of abuse before that, and

0:27:33.920 --> 0:27:37.560
<v Speaker 2>with that, it meant that only murder was on the table.

0:27:37.680 --> 0:27:42.320
<v Speaker 2>It was murder or nothing, It was never manslaughter. Yeah, yeah,

0:27:42.400 --> 0:27:45.119
<v Speaker 2>So the jury in the penalty phase, because it was

0:27:45.160 --> 0:27:48.399
<v Speaker 2>a death penalty case as well, only ever had murder

0:27:48.480 --> 0:27:51.000
<v Speaker 2>or nothing. In the penalty phase, they heard all about

0:27:51.040 --> 0:27:53.879
<v Speaker 2>the abuse, and some of the jurors said, if they

0:27:53.880 --> 0:27:56.560
<v Speaker 2>had heard about that abuse, they would not have voted

0:27:56.600 --> 0:28:02.159
<v Speaker 2>for murder, and their appeals ran, but they weren't. They

0:28:02.200 --> 0:28:06.240
<v Speaker 2>weren't seen as well. The appeals weren't granted in two

0:28:06.320 --> 0:28:09.520
<v Speaker 2>thousand and five. But in twenty twenty, Court TV put

0:28:09.560 --> 0:28:12.600
<v Speaker 2>all the first trial online and so I started to

0:28:12.600 --> 0:28:15.480
<v Speaker 2>go back through it or and found Lar's testimony just

0:28:15.520 --> 0:28:20.480
<v Speaker 2>so compelling and then covering the case. Once the Menudo

0:28:20.600 --> 0:28:24.400
<v Speaker 2>and Menendez. Sorry, the Menendez and Menudo boys portrayed documentary

0:28:24.480 --> 0:28:28.240
<v Speaker 2>landed on Peacock in twenty twenty three, and myself and

0:28:28.320 --> 0:28:32.200
<v Speaker 2>Jim Clemente dug into that and realized that Jose Menendez,

0:28:32.240 --> 0:28:35.479
<v Speaker 2>as I had always believed, harmed other boys, not just

0:28:36.320 --> 0:28:39.240
<v Speaker 2>Lyle and Eric. So that was new evidence that was

0:28:39.240 --> 0:28:42.640
<v Speaker 2>found by Robert Randa, journalist who had followed the case,

0:28:42.920 --> 0:28:46.160
<v Speaker 2>both sat at both trials, reported on it. But he

0:28:46.720 --> 0:28:49.120
<v Speaker 2>also found a letter that Eric had written to his

0:28:49.200 --> 0:28:54.040
<v Speaker 2>cousin Andy Caino, where eight months before they shot their parents,

0:28:54.040 --> 0:28:56.800
<v Speaker 2>he had talked about the sexual abuse. So that's the

0:28:56.840 --> 0:28:59.520
<v Speaker 2>new evidence that's now in the habeas petitions.

0:28:59.560 --> 0:29:01.320
<v Speaker 1>Signific new evidence, isn't it.

0:29:02.280 --> 0:29:04.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? The trials never they know at the court never

0:29:04.600 --> 0:29:07.400
<v Speaker 2>heard about that. And then you've got the rehabilitation and

0:29:07.400 --> 0:29:10.480
<v Speaker 2>resentencing peace. So they've got the habeas petition that talks

0:29:10.480 --> 0:29:13.320
<v Speaker 2>about the new evidence that was submitted twenty four hours

0:29:13.320 --> 0:29:18.360
<v Speaker 2>after the Peacock Menndas and Menudo documentary landed. But you've

0:29:18.360 --> 0:29:23.960
<v Speaker 2>also got in California there's the resentencing and rehabilitation arm

0:29:24.200 --> 0:29:28.880
<v Speaker 2>to the District Attorney here, George Gascon has started that

0:29:29.120 --> 0:29:33.120
<v Speaker 2>when you look back in time, if cases were disproportionately sentenced,

0:29:33.200 --> 0:29:37.200
<v Speaker 2>or if the offenders have been rehabilitated, their unit will

0:29:37.200 --> 0:29:41.160
<v Speaker 2>look at those cases and resentence because the Mennder's brothers

0:29:41.200 --> 0:29:44.520
<v Speaker 2>have always been model inmates, and you know, the rehabilitation

0:29:44.640 --> 0:29:48.040
<v Speaker 2>piece shows that. You know, they've both got degrees, they've

0:29:48.040 --> 0:29:51.719
<v Speaker 2>helped paint murals and done green projects, and they've mentored

0:29:51.760 --> 0:29:55.440
<v Speaker 2>other abuse victims in prison, and lots of the wardens

0:29:55.440 --> 0:29:58.320
<v Speaker 2>say they would have them as neighbors. So there's a

0:29:58.360 --> 0:30:01.600
<v Speaker 2>case to be made for the resentence, and that's what

0:30:01.640 --> 0:30:04.160
<v Speaker 2>George Gascon has said the district attorneys. So the whole

0:30:04.200 --> 0:30:08.200
<v Speaker 2>family flew in last week to La to talk to

0:30:08.360 --> 0:30:13.240
<v Speaker 2>George Gascon's unit, the re sentencing unit, about why from

0:30:13.280 --> 0:30:16.920
<v Speaker 2>both sides of the family, Jose's family and Kitty's family,

0:30:16.920 --> 0:30:20.959
<v Speaker 2>why they support their nephews, their cousins, and why they

0:30:21.000 --> 0:30:23.600
<v Speaker 2>believe they should be released. Which I don't know if

0:30:23.600 --> 0:30:25.720
<v Speaker 2>you've ever seen that in your career, but I've never

0:30:25.760 --> 0:30:28.080
<v Speaker 2>seen something like that, And I went to the courthouse

0:30:28.120 --> 0:30:33.080
<v Speaker 2>and I was absolutely amazed by what they said from

0:30:33.080 --> 0:30:35.360
<v Speaker 2>both sides of the family. I've just never seen that before.

0:30:35.400 --> 0:30:37.560
<v Speaker 2>In almost thirty years of view.

0:30:37.920 --> 0:30:42.000
<v Speaker 1>No, I definitely haven't seen that, but what a fascinating

0:30:42.040 --> 0:30:45.440
<v Speaker 1>case because I've watched it from afar. But thanks for

0:30:45.480 --> 0:30:47.880
<v Speaker 1>the insight into that. I can see why it's captured

0:30:47.880 --> 0:30:52.840
<v Speaker 1>so many people's attention. Fascinating. We want to talk coerci

0:30:53.120 --> 0:30:59.040
<v Speaker 1>control before we leave the stalking that it's a situation

0:30:59.160 --> 0:31:01.440
<v Speaker 1>that people have got all appreciate it for the crime

0:31:01.480 --> 0:31:04.200
<v Speaker 1>that it is and the potential, the warning signs, the

0:31:04.240 --> 0:31:07.040
<v Speaker 1>indicators there, and you know, we talked about trying to

0:31:07.040 --> 0:31:12.640
<v Speaker 1>make a difference on podcasts or people a platform for people.

0:31:14.000 --> 0:31:16.560
<v Speaker 1>Law enforcement's got to be educated about it, the courts

0:31:16.600 --> 0:31:18.840
<v Speaker 1>have got to be educated about it, and people have

0:31:18.880 --> 0:31:22.080
<v Speaker 1>got to accept that stalking is a crime that is

0:31:22.120 --> 0:31:26.040
<v Speaker 1>an indicator that something terrible might happen down the track.

0:31:26.800 --> 0:31:29.520
<v Speaker 1>I just want to bang on about when we all

0:31:29.920 --> 0:31:33.400
<v Speaker 1>supposedly had COVID they could track everyone's movements all over

0:31:33.440 --> 0:31:36.360
<v Speaker 1>the country, and that we had the technology and the capability.

0:31:37.040 --> 0:31:42.640
<v Speaker 1>Why someone who's stalking someone, perhaps they get one chance warned, Okay,

0:31:42.760 --> 0:31:47.360
<v Speaker 1>your attention is not welcome. After that, the courts put

0:31:47.360 --> 0:31:49.520
<v Speaker 1>an ankle bracelet on them. That has to give the

0:31:49.600 --> 0:31:55.720
<v Speaker 1>victim some peace. And you talked about Hannah Clark's situation.

0:31:56.360 --> 0:31:59.520
<v Speaker 1>Lloyd and Sue Clark. I know Hannah's parents and I've

0:31:59.560 --> 0:32:02.680
<v Speaker 1>had them on the podcast and got to know them

0:32:02.720 --> 0:32:06.920
<v Speaker 1>quite well. That was coercive control and the relationship that

0:32:06.960 --> 0:32:11.920
<v Speaker 1>Hannah was in with the killer. But they talked about

0:32:12.000 --> 0:32:15.480
<v Speaker 1>and I asked Lloyd and Sue whether if they had

0:32:15.520 --> 0:32:18.640
<v Speaker 1>an ankle bracelet, if he had had an ankle bracelet,

0:32:18.640 --> 0:32:21.000
<v Speaker 1>would have that made Hannah feel safer because they could

0:32:21.040 --> 0:32:24.200
<v Speaker 1>see the warning signs coming in And they said most definitely.

0:32:24.520 --> 0:32:26.200
<v Speaker 1>I would go as far as to say if she

0:32:26.320 --> 0:32:28.880
<v Speaker 1>knew that he was in the area, that she and

0:32:29.000 --> 0:32:34.720
<v Speaker 1>the three beautiful children would still be alive. So it's

0:32:34.960 --> 0:32:38.200
<v Speaker 1>a pretty heavy way to lead into coercive control. But

0:32:38.280 --> 0:32:41.760
<v Speaker 1>I know you've been instrumental, not just here in Australia

0:32:41.800 --> 0:32:46.160
<v Speaker 1>but overseas as well about getting legislation changed.

0:32:46.600 --> 0:32:51.480
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I mean Hannah's case with the children, Dahlia, Leana

0:32:51.480 --> 0:32:55.760
<v Speaker 2>and Trey just utterly just devastating. And I remember that

0:32:55.880 --> 0:32:59.280
<v Speaker 2>unfolding and watching that from here in Los Angeles, and

0:32:59.320 --> 0:33:03.000
<v Speaker 2>I did one day immediately what his history was of

0:33:03.400 --> 0:33:05.320
<v Speaker 2>doing that. I mean, setting them on fires, just one

0:33:05.360 --> 0:33:09.480
<v Speaker 2>of the cruelest and most torturous ways to harm and

0:33:09.560 --> 0:33:12.600
<v Speaker 2>to kill. And I suspected he would have a history.

0:33:13.160 --> 0:33:16.720
<v Speaker 2>And you know, often we do see course of control

0:33:16.760 --> 0:33:20.560
<v Speaker 2>and stalking the two things co occurring together, and you

0:33:20.680 --> 0:33:24.480
<v Speaker 2>can be stalked within a relationship as well as after

0:33:24.520 --> 0:33:28.520
<v Speaker 2>the relationship ends. But the course of control element what

0:33:28.600 --> 0:33:32.760
<v Speaker 2>we it really is about a power imbalance and an unfreedom.

0:33:33.080 --> 0:33:36.400
<v Speaker 2>They're the first words are used to describe it. The

0:33:36.520 --> 0:33:39.520
<v Speaker 2>unfreedom is that the victim doesn't have their own agency

0:33:39.600 --> 0:33:46.280
<v Speaker 2>and autonomy and they've often been psychologically undone and isolated.

0:33:46.480 --> 0:33:52.720
<v Speaker 2>So it's a behavioral regime where someone creates this codependency

0:33:53.120 --> 0:33:58.040
<v Speaker 2>and way of controlling the other person, whether it's isolating them,

0:33:58.240 --> 0:34:01.520
<v Speaker 2>which you see in most cases, where it's controlling finances,

0:34:01.640 --> 0:34:05.840
<v Speaker 2>controlling their movements, who they see, their time, what they wear.

0:34:06.480 --> 0:34:09.520
<v Speaker 2>You know, the set of rules and regulations that come

0:34:09.560 --> 0:34:13.719
<v Speaker 2>in slowly and insidiously that most victims don't even know

0:34:13.840 --> 0:34:17.560
<v Speaker 2>that those rules exist, and they have to live by

0:34:17.600 --> 0:34:21.200
<v Speaker 2>the perpetrators rules and regulations and if they break those

0:34:21.280 --> 0:34:24.719
<v Speaker 2>rules and regulations, there's a consequence. But the rules and

0:34:24.800 --> 0:34:28.080
<v Speaker 2>regulations there's a double standard. They don't apply to the perpetrator.

0:34:28.360 --> 0:34:31.200
<v Speaker 2>They only apply to the victim and or the children.

0:34:32.280 --> 0:34:37.400
<v Speaker 2>So it's the psychological undoing that's very important to understand,

0:34:37.480 --> 0:34:40.400
<v Speaker 2>the lack of freedom of choice. So with Hannah not

0:34:40.400 --> 0:34:43.480
<v Speaker 2>being allowed to wear pink, not allowed to wear a bikini,

0:34:44.800 --> 0:34:48.080
<v Speaker 2>he said, let's do a joint Facebook, i e. If

0:34:48.080 --> 0:34:50.680
<v Speaker 2>they have a joint Facebook account, he can control everything

0:34:50.680 --> 0:34:54.480
<v Speaker 2>that's going out there. Although it might look like, oh,

0:34:54.560 --> 0:34:57.279
<v Speaker 2>let's just be a nice couple, you know, to everybody else,

0:34:57.320 --> 0:34:59.799
<v Speaker 2>it looks like, you know, maybe they're just being very

0:34:59.800 --> 0:35:03.120
<v Speaker 2>too z and coupperly, But actually it's about how he's

0:35:03.640 --> 0:35:07.080
<v Speaker 2>creating all these mediums to control her space for action,

0:35:07.960 --> 0:35:09.920
<v Speaker 2>and that really is what we look for, you know,

0:35:09.960 --> 0:35:13.600
<v Speaker 2>whether the victim does have freedom of choice and whose

0:35:13.680 --> 0:35:17.080
<v Speaker 2>rules are they living by and whose needs are being met.

0:35:17.719 --> 0:35:21.560
<v Speaker 2>So it's actually quite a sophisticated thing, and most victims

0:35:21.600 --> 0:35:26.360
<v Speaker 2>don't even know they're being victimized because of the power

0:35:26.440 --> 0:35:29.759
<v Speaker 2>imbalance between men and women that still exists in everyday

0:35:31.120 --> 0:35:34.520
<v Speaker 2>daily life and in the patriarchy. And it literally is

0:35:34.600 --> 0:35:37.680
<v Speaker 2>just a notch up from what people see as acceptable

0:35:37.719 --> 0:35:42.640
<v Speaker 2>behavior to unacceptable behavior. And you know, that power imbalance.

0:35:42.880 --> 0:35:45.399
<v Speaker 2>Hannah being that much younger than him.

0:35:45.600 --> 0:35:45.799
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:35:45.840 --> 0:35:48.319
<v Speaker 2>Sometimes we see it in age, sometimes we see it

0:35:48.400 --> 0:35:53.680
<v Speaker 2>within status like celebrity reaver Esteamcamp and Oscar Pistorius, O J.

0:35:53.840 --> 0:35:57.120
<v Speaker 2>Simpson and Nicole you know. So that there's a lot

0:35:57.200 --> 0:35:59.560
<v Speaker 2>that we have to unravel. But I always look for

0:35:59.600 --> 0:36:03.600
<v Speaker 2>the power balanced before and unfreedom. Does she have freedom

0:36:03.640 --> 0:36:06.959
<v Speaker 2>of choice or not? Or is she being coerced into

0:36:07.000 --> 0:36:10.600
<v Speaker 2>behaving a certain way? The walking on eggshells because she

0:36:10.680 --> 0:36:13.920
<v Speaker 2>doesn't want to upset him and the rules that he's

0:36:14.000 --> 0:36:14.520
<v Speaker 2>laid down.

0:36:15.960 --> 0:36:20.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and so to implement that type of type of

0:36:20.719 --> 0:36:23.840
<v Speaker 1>behavior understanding, I'll talk about it from a police officer's

0:36:23.880 --> 0:36:28.080
<v Speaker 1>point of view with domestic violence that quite often we

0:36:28.120 --> 0:36:31.319
<v Speaker 1>would attend and it's yeah, it's the bread and butther

0:36:31.440 --> 0:36:37.400
<v Speaker 1>of most frontline police attending domestic violence situations. But without

0:36:37.440 --> 0:36:41.080
<v Speaker 1>the coercive control we had to look for. Okay, as

0:36:41.080 --> 0:36:44.080
<v Speaker 1>there been a physical assault, has there been a criminal offense?

0:36:44.320 --> 0:36:48.640
<v Speaker 1>And we didn't have in the legislation. The criminal offense

0:36:48.680 --> 0:36:53.040
<v Speaker 1>at coercive control is that there is an offense being committed.

0:36:53.080 --> 0:36:55.279
<v Speaker 1>If let's say your bank account, you're not allowed to

0:36:55.320 --> 0:36:58.560
<v Speaker 1>access your bank account, I'll drip for you the money

0:36:58.640 --> 0:37:00.960
<v Speaker 1>you're not allowed to contact your friends. I need to

0:37:01.040 --> 0:37:04.440
<v Speaker 1>check your phone. That type of behavior. Is that controlling

0:37:04.480 --> 0:37:08.359
<v Speaker 1>behavior you talked about, And what as I understand that

0:37:08.800 --> 0:37:11.120
<v Speaker 1>you're trying to do and what he's been done. With

0:37:11.360 --> 0:37:15.080
<v Speaker 1>legislation being implemented, that that can be identified as an

0:37:15.080 --> 0:37:19.560
<v Speaker 1>offense in meeting those parameters and action can be taken.

0:37:19.680 --> 0:37:22.760
<v Speaker 1>Is that a fair breakdown of the coercive control situation

0:37:22.880 --> 0:37:25.000
<v Speaker 1>and the benefits of having legislation.

0:37:25.280 --> 0:37:28.480
<v Speaker 2>Yes, it's basically all the non physical stuff that before

0:37:28.560 --> 0:37:31.439
<v Speaker 2>we never paid attention to. And I call it death

0:37:31.480 --> 0:37:35.480
<v Speaker 2>by a thousand cuts. That you have all these psychological

0:37:35.520 --> 0:37:39.480
<v Speaker 2>and emotional and other elements that are being done to

0:37:39.560 --> 0:37:42.640
<v Speaker 2>a victim. But it's only when it turns physical do

0:37:42.800 --> 0:37:46.279
<v Speaker 2>police and others say, oh, that's the crime. But they

0:37:46.360 --> 0:37:49.480
<v Speaker 2>miss the twenty two years of that control related behavior.

0:37:50.239 --> 0:37:53.160
<v Speaker 2>And what's more insidious about coercid control is that it's

0:37:53.200 --> 0:37:57.600
<v Speaker 2>about entrapment, and the victim becomes entrapped and it happens

0:37:57.600 --> 0:38:02.560
<v Speaker 2>to children too, this entrapment, and it's about utter domination.

0:38:03.160 --> 0:38:05.680
<v Speaker 2>And that's the best way to describe course of control.

0:38:05.719 --> 0:38:09.680
<v Speaker 2>It is about an utter domination of another person. So

0:38:10.400 --> 0:38:13.160
<v Speaker 2>oftentimes it's invisible. It's like a spider's web that you

0:38:13.200 --> 0:38:15.480
<v Speaker 2>see parts of it glint in the sun. But you've

0:38:15.520 --> 0:38:18.640
<v Speaker 2>got to ask more questions about what's going on and

0:38:18.719 --> 0:38:21.080
<v Speaker 2>just a nod. Back to the Menenda's case, both of

0:38:21.480 --> 0:38:24.440
<v Speaker 2>the boys, Eric and Laile were coercively controlled by their parents,

0:38:24.560 --> 0:38:29.320
<v Speaker 2>and more sinister was Jose Menendez's control and sexual abuse

0:38:29.360 --> 0:38:34.560
<v Speaker 2>of them. That was coercive. And with children, they look

0:38:34.680 --> 0:38:37.279
<v Speaker 2>for the love and the validation of that parent, so

0:38:37.320 --> 0:38:40.560
<v Speaker 2>they put themselves in harm's way to get the approval

0:38:40.600 --> 0:38:43.279
<v Speaker 2>and validation and love of the parents. So it is

0:38:43.360 --> 0:38:47.320
<v Speaker 2>so damaging to your brain as a child, but also

0:38:47.360 --> 0:38:51.040
<v Speaker 2>to your psychosocial development. It interrupts your whole development, which

0:38:51.080 --> 0:38:54.040
<v Speaker 2>is why Lyle, at the age of twenty one, had

0:38:54.160 --> 0:38:59.719
<v Speaker 2>an emotional maturity or immaturity age of fourteen and Eric

0:38:59.800 --> 0:39:02.760
<v Speaker 2>or he had just turned eighteen when he was assessed.

0:39:02.800 --> 0:39:05.640
<v Speaker 2>He was actually the age emotionally of an eight year old.

0:39:05.920 --> 0:39:08.600
<v Speaker 2>It's like you get frozen. So it's so damaging to.

0:39:08.640 --> 0:39:12.280
<v Speaker 1>Children stunted at that age the emotional.

0:39:11.880 --> 0:39:15.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, and for women it's so damaging. I mean,

0:39:15.080 --> 0:39:19.080
<v Speaker 2>that's why you get you know, with suppressing down you know,

0:39:19.320 --> 0:39:22.279
<v Speaker 2>fear and what you want in life and having to

0:39:22.320 --> 0:39:24.920
<v Speaker 2>put yourself last all the time. You know, it's why

0:39:24.960 --> 0:39:27.600
<v Speaker 2>a lot of women have autoimmune disorders and things. That

0:39:27.640 --> 0:39:29.880
<v Speaker 2>the body will keep the score. That even though he

0:39:29.920 --> 0:39:33.400
<v Speaker 2>may not physically have hit her, often he doesn't have to.

0:39:34.160 --> 0:39:37.560
<v Speaker 2>He keeps her in fear, always second guessing, always, you know,

0:39:37.680 --> 0:39:41.560
<v Speaker 2>walking on eggshells, and that is very damaging to your

0:39:42.760 --> 0:39:47.239
<v Speaker 2>own health state as well in terms of your psychology

0:39:47.360 --> 0:39:50.080
<v Speaker 2>and your emotions. And the body will keep the score.

0:39:50.120 --> 0:39:54.120
<v Speaker 2>Basil Vanderkolt's work that all of that stuff will go somewhere,

0:39:54.160 --> 0:39:56.680
<v Speaker 2>and that's where we see self harm and suicides. We

0:39:56.760 --> 0:40:01.000
<v Speaker 2>see more women disproportionately and their their own lives because

0:40:01.000 --> 0:40:03.560
<v Speaker 2>of a course of controller. So course of control does

0:40:03.600 --> 0:40:09.480
<v Speaker 2>correlate to femicide and for millicide, children being killed, homicide,

0:40:10.000 --> 0:40:13.680
<v Speaker 2>and to suicide, and it significantly correlates. So it really

0:40:13.760 --> 0:40:16.160
<v Speaker 2>is this big red flag that when you see it

0:40:17.080 --> 0:40:23.040
<v Speaker 2>with the mindset, the psychopathology of the offender, I must

0:40:23.040 --> 0:40:25.640
<v Speaker 2>win it all costs. It ends my way. And when

0:40:25.680 --> 0:40:28.359
<v Speaker 2>I say it ends, these sorts of things when they

0:40:28.480 --> 0:40:31.480
<v Speaker 2>want revenge, they will scorch the earth and they are

0:40:31.520 --> 0:40:34.560
<v Speaker 2>incredibly dangerous and there's a proportion, well, there's a number

0:40:34.600 --> 0:40:37.560
<v Speaker 2>of them who are psychopaths, and that's why we have

0:40:37.640 --> 0:40:41.640
<v Speaker 2>to take it seriously because they're master manipulators, and often

0:40:41.719 --> 0:40:44.319
<v Speaker 2>police and others have no idea who's in front of

0:40:44.360 --> 0:40:47.120
<v Speaker 2>them when they're interviewing them, and they don't understand their

0:40:47.160 --> 0:40:48.360
<v Speaker 2>master manipulators.

0:40:48.680 --> 0:40:51.640
<v Speaker 1>And it all comes down what you're saying there, and

0:40:52.000 --> 0:40:55.600
<v Speaker 1>I do understand exactly what you're saying, but it comes

0:40:55.640 --> 0:40:59.680
<v Speaker 1>down to education, education of police officers so they understand

0:40:59.680 --> 0:41:03.719
<v Speaker 1>what they're actually dealing with because I know quite often

0:41:03.760 --> 0:41:05.680
<v Speaker 1>you hear from a victim's point of view, I'm too

0:41:05.680 --> 0:41:08.359
<v Speaker 1>scared to leave him because if I leave him, and

0:41:08.840 --> 0:41:11.399
<v Speaker 1>I think the facts would play out, those statistics would

0:41:11.400 --> 0:41:14.120
<v Speaker 1>play out. That is a danger period where someone has

0:41:14.200 --> 0:41:19.799
<v Speaker 1>left a coercive relationship. So we get the legislation in

0:41:20.400 --> 0:41:22.520
<v Speaker 1>that's one thing, but I also know as a former

0:41:22.560 --> 0:41:25.279
<v Speaker 1>police officer, legislation is one thing, but we've got to

0:41:25.320 --> 0:41:27.920
<v Speaker 1>know how to use the legislation and the courts have

0:41:28.000 --> 0:41:30.560
<v Speaker 1>got to accept the legislation. Do you think that is

0:41:30.800 --> 0:41:34.239
<v Speaker 1>part of the introduction of the legislation that will play

0:41:34.239 --> 0:41:36.440
<v Speaker 1>out that police will be educated and see it as

0:41:36.480 --> 0:41:39.319
<v Speaker 1>a tool, a worthwhile tool that they can use and

0:41:39.360 --> 0:41:41.800
<v Speaker 1>the courts will back up the police.

0:41:42.040 --> 0:41:45.279
<v Speaker 2>Expert led training before any new law comes in is

0:41:45.320 --> 0:41:48.720
<v Speaker 2>an absolute must and New South Wales have done that training.

0:41:48.800 --> 0:41:51.440
<v Speaker 2>Scotland they did the training before the law came in

0:41:51.520 --> 0:41:54.759
<v Speaker 2>England and Wales we put it through Parliament and we

0:41:54.760 --> 0:41:57.840
<v Speaker 2>were voted down and we didn't have that mandatory training

0:41:58.040 --> 0:42:00.000
<v Speaker 2>and we've been trying to play catch up ever since.

0:42:00.120 --> 0:42:03.200
<v Speaker 2>So yes, you're absolutely right, and you know it has

0:42:03.239 --> 0:42:06.640
<v Speaker 2>to be expert led training of understanding how the law

0:42:06.719 --> 0:42:09.839
<v Speaker 2>makes contact in the real world, because often I hear

0:42:09.920 --> 0:42:12.600
<v Speaker 2>things like, oh, this law is so hard to prove,

0:42:13.320 --> 0:42:16.200
<v Speaker 2>where actually the practical points are very clear. If an

0:42:16.200 --> 0:42:20.160
<v Speaker 2>officer and court staff are trained, it's actually really clear

0:42:20.280 --> 0:42:22.800
<v Speaker 2>and obvious. And as I always say, once you're trained

0:42:23.400 --> 0:42:27.360
<v Speaker 2>to see it, you can't unsee it. And that training

0:42:27.440 --> 0:42:30.239
<v Speaker 2>is just so important. It's a lifeline. And that's where

0:42:30.239 --> 0:42:33.800
<v Speaker 2>I think often we just don't invest in quality training,

0:42:33.920 --> 0:42:36.400
<v Speaker 2>and I've delivered training to people all over the world.

0:42:36.680 --> 0:42:39.239
<v Speaker 2>I've got my next Course of Control master class on

0:42:39.280 --> 0:42:43.200
<v Speaker 2>December fourth and fifth coming up, where we go through

0:42:43.640 --> 0:42:46.239
<v Speaker 2>not just the behaviors and the victimology, but the psychology

0:42:46.239 --> 0:42:49.160
<v Speaker 2>of the offenders and the legislation in different parts of

0:42:49.200 --> 0:42:51.920
<v Speaker 2>the world, because it has to make contact with the

0:42:51.960 --> 0:42:56.880
<v Speaker 2>real world and not just be an academic exercise. I, Laura,

0:42:56.880 --> 0:42:59.680
<v Speaker 2>are just all the things that you've got your head

0:42:59.680 --> 0:43:01.439
<v Speaker 2>across and the things that you're doing.

0:43:01.920 --> 0:43:03.759
<v Speaker 1>I honestly don't know where you get the time to

0:43:03.800 --> 0:43:07.640
<v Speaker 1>do all this, but clearly you have a passion for it.

0:43:07.680 --> 0:43:11.359
<v Speaker 1>But fighting town hall as I call it, when you're

0:43:11.360 --> 0:43:14.680
<v Speaker 1>trying to argue change legislation. But we've always done it

0:43:14.719 --> 0:43:17.080
<v Speaker 1>this way. Yeah, stupid, but it's not working. We're trying

0:43:17.080 --> 0:43:19.279
<v Speaker 1>to change things. I know what you're up against, so

0:43:19.440 --> 0:43:23.399
<v Speaker 1>full credit to you. But there's other stuff, and I've

0:43:23.400 --> 0:43:25.360
<v Speaker 1>got so many things I want to speak to you about.

0:43:25.360 --> 0:43:29.080
<v Speaker 1>But Dirty John, you have some knowledge about that. People

0:43:30.040 --> 0:43:32.759
<v Speaker 1>might know about that case through a game, through a

0:43:32.800 --> 0:43:36.120
<v Speaker 1>TV series, but that's often how people are educated. Do

0:43:36.160 --> 0:43:40.840
<v Speaker 1>you want to just talk us through that particular case, incident, scenario,

0:43:41.080 --> 0:43:44.520
<v Speaker 1>whatever you want to describe it as, what your knowledge

0:43:44.520 --> 0:43:45.600
<v Speaker 1>and involvement is in that.

0:43:45.920 --> 0:43:49.879
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I'm in Real Crime profile my other podcast. We

0:43:49.880 --> 0:43:53.920
<v Speaker 2>were asked before the podcast Dirty John dropped, which was

0:43:53.960 --> 0:43:57.759
<v Speaker 2>an LA Times and Wondery podcast and Christopher Goffard was

0:43:57.800 --> 0:44:00.719
<v Speaker 2>the La Times journalist and we were asked to interview

0:44:00.840 --> 0:44:03.600
<v Speaker 2>him before the podcast dropped, so we got all the

0:44:03.640 --> 0:44:07.799
<v Speaker 2>transcripts and had a pre listen and I was just like,

0:44:07.840 --> 0:44:10.240
<v Speaker 2>oh my goodness, this case is about course of control

0:44:10.280 --> 0:44:13.560
<v Speaker 2>and stalking. So you know, when talking to Chris, I

0:44:13.640 --> 0:44:15.480
<v Speaker 2>was doing the interview from London, it was like the

0:44:15.480 --> 0:44:17.959
<v Speaker 2>middle of the night, and you know, I was trying

0:44:17.960 --> 0:44:20.359
<v Speaker 2>to get my brain engaged. But you know, I said

0:44:20.400 --> 0:44:22.200
<v Speaker 2>to him, you know, this case is about coerce of

0:44:22.280 --> 0:44:25.240
<v Speaker 2>control and he said, I've never heard of that term.

0:44:25.719 --> 0:44:28.680
<v Speaker 2>What is that? So I explained it to him, and

0:44:28.800 --> 0:44:32.080
<v Speaker 2>to Chris's credit, he said, if I had understood that before,

0:44:32.120 --> 0:44:35.960
<v Speaker 2>I would have told the story differently. And the case

0:44:36.080 --> 0:44:42.040
<v Speaker 2>really is about a very dangerous individual who would target

0:44:42.320 --> 0:44:47.520
<v Speaker 2>lots of different women at any one time and basically

0:44:47.520 --> 0:44:49.439
<v Speaker 2>try and get their money from them, but he would

0:44:49.480 --> 0:44:54.120
<v Speaker 2>also coercively control them and abuse them and harmed many

0:44:54.160 --> 0:44:56.880
<v Speaker 2>different women. But the story with that Chris was telling

0:44:56.920 --> 0:45:00.560
<v Speaker 2>really happened sort of towards the end of what Mehan

0:45:00.719 --> 0:45:04.120
<v Speaker 2>was doing and the last relationship that he had, and

0:45:04.600 --> 0:45:08.280
<v Speaker 2>the story is kind of unbelievable in many senses, because

0:45:09.120 --> 0:45:12.480
<v Speaker 2>he did try and kill Deborah's daughter Terror, And I mean,

0:45:12.520 --> 0:45:15.480
<v Speaker 2>here's the spoiler. If somebody hasn't listened to it, you know,

0:45:15.600 --> 0:45:19.400
<v Speaker 2>what effectively happened was John couldn't get to Deborah, so

0:45:19.520 --> 0:45:22.719
<v Speaker 2>then he targeted her children, and he went for her daughters.

0:45:22.920 --> 0:45:25.759
<v Speaker 2>And it was Jacqueline who ran the alarm to say,

0:45:26.000 --> 0:45:29.520
<v Speaker 2>I think I just saw John outside my apartment. You know,

0:45:29.640 --> 0:45:31.799
<v Speaker 2>called her mum, called her sister, so they were all

0:45:31.840 --> 0:45:34.320
<v Speaker 2>on red alert. And this is after Deborah had reported

0:45:34.400 --> 0:45:37.040
<v Speaker 2>him to police and had disappeared herself for six months

0:45:37.040 --> 0:45:39.080
<v Speaker 2>because she knew he was going to try and kill her.

0:45:39.920 --> 0:45:44.920
<v Speaker 2>And then he tried to abduct and kill Terror, only

0:45:46.400 --> 0:45:49.320
<v Speaker 2>she ended up grabbing the knife off of him and

0:45:49.400 --> 0:45:52.880
<v Speaker 2>killing him. And that's really why the case was of

0:45:52.920 --> 0:45:55.880
<v Speaker 2>such interest. That Matt Murphy was the district attorney. He

0:45:55.960 --> 0:45:58.640
<v Speaker 2>decided that he wasn't going to prosecute Terror. This was

0:45:58.680 --> 0:46:03.080
<v Speaker 2>self defense. And so Chris Govard decided to tell this

0:46:03.160 --> 0:46:06.000
<v Speaker 2>story just months after that had happened, so the family

0:46:06.080 --> 0:46:10.560
<v Speaker 2>was still in trauma. Effectively, when I interviewed Chris and

0:46:10.600 --> 0:46:14.600
<v Speaker 2>said all of this unbeknownst to me Deborah was listening,

0:46:15.360 --> 0:46:18.480
<v Speaker 2>as was her best friend, and they contacted me and

0:46:18.520 --> 0:46:21.279
<v Speaker 2>said that coercive control that you mentioned, You've given it

0:46:21.320 --> 0:46:24.640
<v Speaker 2>a name, and it's so amazing. It's like you know me,

0:46:24.760 --> 0:46:26.880
<v Speaker 2>but you've never met me. And I just want to

0:46:26.880 --> 0:46:29.359
<v Speaker 2>say thank you. That's what Debra said, and we ended

0:46:29.440 --> 0:46:33.399
<v Speaker 2>up meeting and I ended up being her advocate. There

0:46:33.440 --> 0:46:35.200
<v Speaker 2>was going to be the scripted show. There was going

0:46:35.239 --> 0:46:37.920
<v Speaker 2>to be a documentary. Deborah didn't want to do any

0:46:37.960 --> 0:46:40.160
<v Speaker 2>of that. She got very cold feet about it because

0:46:40.160 --> 0:46:42.720
<v Speaker 2>of the way the podcast landed, and she got blamed

0:46:42.760 --> 0:46:45.480
<v Speaker 2>for a lot of things because of the way the

0:46:45.520 --> 0:46:49.160
<v Speaker 2>podcast positioned her of being married four times. There was

0:46:49.200 --> 0:46:52.080
<v Speaker 2>a lot of judgment and the podcast didn't include all

0:46:52.080 --> 0:46:56.000
<v Speaker 2>the steps that she took to protect herself and her children,

0:46:56.680 --> 0:46:59.200
<v Speaker 2>and so there was a lot of criticism of Deborah

0:46:59.239 --> 0:47:02.120
<v Speaker 2>and I ended up being advocate. It was a scripted show.

0:47:02.160 --> 0:47:05.359
<v Speaker 2>In the end, she did sign the contract. It ended

0:47:05.440 --> 0:47:09.000
<v Speaker 2>up going out on Bravo. Connie Britten played her and

0:47:09.120 --> 0:47:14.759
<v Speaker 2>Eric Banner played played John. And there was the documentary

0:47:14.760 --> 0:47:17.120
<v Speaker 2>which I was a consulting producer on, where all the

0:47:17.160 --> 0:47:20.600
<v Speaker 2>women that John had targeted and abused all the horror

0:47:20.640 --> 0:47:23.640
<v Speaker 2>story of the true story of what happened. We put

0:47:23.680 --> 0:47:26.799
<v Speaker 2>into a documentary called Dirty John The Dirty Truth. And

0:47:26.840 --> 0:47:29.560
<v Speaker 2>then I worked with his first wife of ten years, Tanya,

0:47:29.719 --> 0:47:33.239
<v Speaker 2>and we did an audible investigation with Tanya at the

0:47:33.239 --> 0:47:36.960
<v Speaker 2>center of it called John Meehan's Reign of Terror. And

0:47:37.160 --> 0:47:40.040
<v Speaker 2>Tanya thought she had processed everything, but as I said

0:47:40.040 --> 0:47:41.960
<v Speaker 2>to her, you don't know the half of what John

0:47:42.040 --> 0:47:43.839
<v Speaker 2>meehan was up to. I mean, he was a very

0:47:43.960 --> 0:47:50.320
<v Speaker 2>dangerous serial stalker, course of controller and psychopath. And so yeah,

0:47:50.600 --> 0:47:52.520
<v Speaker 2>now when people say, oh, what's course of control? I

0:47:52.520 --> 0:47:55.400
<v Speaker 2>always say, watch Dirty John, or listen to the podcast

0:47:55.480 --> 0:47:58.840
<v Speaker 2>or my episodes with Tanya and Deborah, because the unrap

0:47:58.920 --> 0:48:00.800
<v Speaker 2>it's like a thread that you put on a jumper.

0:48:01.160 --> 0:48:03.800
<v Speaker 2>There's so many parts to it, you know, or a sweater,

0:48:03.920 --> 0:48:07.719
<v Speaker 2>there's so many parts to it that and he got

0:48:07.760 --> 0:48:10.160
<v Speaker 2>away with it for so long. Gary. You know, the

0:48:10.200 --> 0:48:14.120
<v Speaker 2>authorities when Deborah was reporting it, they kept saying to her,

0:48:14.520 --> 0:48:16.560
<v Speaker 2>even though he threatened to kill her, they said, this

0:48:16.640 --> 0:48:19.040
<v Speaker 2>is a civil matter, go to the civil courts. And

0:48:19.080 --> 0:48:21.520
<v Speaker 2>she got turned away from four different police stations where

0:48:21.520 --> 0:48:23.080
<v Speaker 2>they said nothing to do with us.

0:48:23.800 --> 0:48:27.400
<v Speaker 1>Shows like Dirty John and other shows, whether they're scripted

0:48:27.480 --> 0:48:30.799
<v Speaker 1>series or documentaries. That's a way of educating people, isn't it.

0:48:30.880 --> 0:48:34.239
<v Speaker 1>Because what you've said there with coercive Control and Dirty John.

0:48:34.880 --> 0:48:37.080
<v Speaker 1>I speak to people about it too, and quite often

0:48:37.080 --> 0:48:40.319
<v Speaker 1>people don't understand it, but your reference to Dirty John

0:48:40.400 --> 0:48:43.279
<v Speaker 1>gives people a full understanding of what the nature of

0:48:43.320 --> 0:48:47.040
<v Speaker 1>the crime is and what exactly is occurring. So that's

0:48:47.080 --> 0:48:49.080
<v Speaker 1>another way of educating people, it is, and.

0:48:49.040 --> 0:48:51.480
<v Speaker 2>That's why Deborah just to say, for Debra, that's why

0:48:51.520 --> 0:48:54.800
<v Speaker 2>she wanted her story told to help people and raise awareness.

0:48:54.800 --> 0:48:57.080
<v Speaker 2>And that's been that's an important part to a lot

0:48:57.120 --> 0:49:00.160
<v Speaker 2>of survivors that what happened to them isn't just you know,

0:49:00.440 --> 0:49:02.840
<v Speaker 2>a horror story that it's actually put to use to

0:49:03.040 --> 0:49:07.239
<v Speaker 2>educate other people who may find themselves in that situation.

0:49:07.400 --> 0:49:10.480
<v Speaker 2>But I can also use it to educate legislators, you know,

0:49:10.520 --> 0:49:13.440
<v Speaker 2>and say we'll listen to this podcast or listen to

0:49:13.480 --> 0:49:17.080
<v Speaker 2>crime an unless my interview with Deborah and Tanya, and

0:49:17.120 --> 0:49:20.320
<v Speaker 2>then they get it the far broader and fuller picture

0:49:21.080 --> 0:49:24.720
<v Speaker 2>of what coercive control is and what serial perpetration is about.

0:49:25.239 --> 0:49:28.160
<v Speaker 1>And I think it also not only educates but helps

0:49:28.400 --> 0:49:31.919
<v Speaker 1>victims who are quite often left in isolation, appreciate that

0:49:32.080 --> 0:49:34.359
<v Speaker 1>this is happening to other people, not just myself, and

0:49:34.400 --> 0:49:36.799
<v Speaker 1>I think there's some comfort that's brought from that that

0:49:37.719 --> 0:49:40.560
<v Speaker 1>and they are victims, there's nothing to be ashamed of.

0:49:41.400 --> 0:49:43.560
<v Speaker 1>It's an offense as being committed against them, but I

0:49:43.600 --> 0:49:46.080
<v Speaker 1>think there's sometimes shame that they don't want to speak out.

0:49:46.120 --> 0:49:51.160
<v Speaker 1>They're embarrassed by their situation. So getting that discussion talking

0:49:51.160 --> 0:49:55.239
<v Speaker 1>about is a good thing. I just want to ask

0:49:55.280 --> 0:50:00.160
<v Speaker 1>you with stalking, if police aren't taking it seriously, what

0:50:00.200 --> 0:50:02.680
<v Speaker 1>advice would you give to a woman that's being stalked

0:50:02.719 --> 0:50:05.280
<v Speaker 1>and she's gone to the play station not getting the response,

0:50:05.600 --> 0:50:07.719
<v Speaker 1>what other things that can let person do?

0:50:08.120 --> 0:50:11.040
<v Speaker 2>It really depends in which country they live. If they're

0:50:11.080 --> 0:50:14.160
<v Speaker 2>in the UK, then I would recommend that they contact Paladin,

0:50:14.200 --> 0:50:18.440
<v Speaker 2>the National Stalking Advocacy Service. That they do have independent

0:50:18.520 --> 0:50:22.440
<v Speaker 2>stalking advocacy case workers there and there's a lot of

0:50:22.480 --> 0:50:26.200
<v Speaker 2>information on the website. So if you're anywhere in the

0:50:26.200 --> 0:50:28.879
<v Speaker 2>world being stalked, do you go on Paladin's website. It's

0:50:29.360 --> 0:50:33.000
<v Speaker 2>an incredible resource of information, and equally on my own website,

0:50:33.040 --> 0:50:36.400
<v Speaker 2>the Laura Richards dot Com, there's information on stalking specifically

0:50:36.400 --> 0:50:40.200
<v Speaker 2>and coercive control, and I would recommend that they tell

0:50:40.239 --> 0:50:44.120
<v Speaker 2>people what's happening for them, people at work, people who

0:50:44.120 --> 0:50:47.440
<v Speaker 2>are in their everyday orbit, friends, family, Let them know

0:50:47.560 --> 0:50:50.799
<v Speaker 2>that something's happening, because often with victims of stalking, your

0:50:50.840 --> 0:50:54.520
<v Speaker 2>world shrinks down and you don't tell people, and that

0:50:54.640 --> 0:50:58.480
<v Speaker 2>level of isolation compounds issues around your mental health. But

0:50:58.600 --> 0:51:02.720
<v Speaker 2>also it gives the stalker room to maneuver, and often

0:51:02.760 --> 0:51:06.520
<v Speaker 2>they've enabled them their way into their relationships. So let

0:51:06.560 --> 0:51:10.560
<v Speaker 2>other people know. Go on the DASH Risk Checklist website.

0:51:11.200 --> 0:51:13.640
<v Speaker 2>Answer the questions on the DASH and it doesn't matter

0:51:13.680 --> 0:51:15.400
<v Speaker 2>where you are in the world. If you filled that

0:51:15.480 --> 0:51:17.960
<v Speaker 2>out and there's stalking, and let's say there could be

0:51:18.040 --> 0:51:21.319
<v Speaker 2>coerc of control as well, fill it out. Go in

0:51:21.600 --> 0:51:25.480
<v Speaker 2>see the police and say that you've listened to Laura

0:51:25.560 --> 0:51:28.719
<v Speaker 2>Richards and you've heard that these things are high risk

0:51:28.800 --> 0:51:32.239
<v Speaker 2>factors and that you're concerned for your safety and you

0:51:32.280 --> 0:51:35.640
<v Speaker 2>want them to help and be very be very matter

0:51:35.680 --> 0:51:38.560
<v Speaker 2>of fact about that. One of the things I've learned

0:51:38.560 --> 0:51:41.200
<v Speaker 2>from working with thousands of victims and setting up Paladin

0:51:41.320 --> 0:51:45.440
<v Speaker 2>is often they can equivocate and say things like it

0:51:45.520 --> 0:51:48.320
<v Speaker 2>might be something or it might be nothing. I mean, Gary,

0:51:48.360 --> 0:51:50.719
<v Speaker 2>you've worked in the police. The minute says someone says

0:51:50.760 --> 0:51:53.719
<v Speaker 2>something like that, it might be something that might be nothing, right,

0:51:53.800 --> 0:51:54.680
<v Speaker 2>it gets written off.

0:51:54.960 --> 0:51:57.560
<v Speaker 1>It might be and so exactly.

0:51:57.440 --> 0:51:58.840
<v Speaker 2>That's always a big problem.

0:51:59.080 --> 0:52:02.200
<v Speaker 1>I think that's that's great advice and I really take

0:52:02.280 --> 0:52:05.359
<v Speaker 1>on board telling people it's nothing to be ashamed of.

0:52:05.400 --> 0:52:07.839
<v Speaker 1>If you've been stalked, tell people and it makes it

0:52:07.880 --> 0:52:10.720
<v Speaker 1>harder for them. But that's fantastic advice.

0:52:10.840 --> 0:52:13.400
<v Speaker 2>The other thing I would just quickly say is collect evidence.

0:52:13.560 --> 0:52:15.799
<v Speaker 2>You know, if it's on your phone or you've got

0:52:15.880 --> 0:52:18.560
<v Speaker 2>pictures or emails or texts, make sure you collect all

0:52:18.600 --> 0:52:20.960
<v Speaker 2>of that and keep a diary of what happened, where

0:52:21.000 --> 0:52:23.560
<v Speaker 2>it happened, and how it made you feel. You have

0:52:23.640 --> 0:52:25.880
<v Speaker 2>to document all of these things. And then you know,

0:52:25.960 --> 0:52:29.040
<v Speaker 2>as I said, reach out to experts on stalking. And

0:52:29.080 --> 0:52:33.799
<v Speaker 2>there are experts in Australia, there's experts in America, in Canada,

0:52:34.040 --> 0:52:37.239
<v Speaker 2>in the UK. So do reach out to other specialist

0:52:37.239 --> 0:52:38.560
<v Speaker 2>services who can help you.

0:52:39.040 --> 0:52:42.120
<v Speaker 1>One hundred percent agree. The other advice I give, or

0:52:42.160 --> 0:52:46.480
<v Speaker 1>in continuation of that, is make contemporaneous notes, document it,

0:52:46.560 --> 0:52:49.360
<v Speaker 1>and walk into the police station with that documented and

0:52:49.520 --> 0:52:52.040
<v Speaker 1>hand the documents over to the police, and also get

0:52:52.080 --> 0:52:54.319
<v Speaker 1>the police officer's name that you're handing it over to,

0:52:54.560 --> 0:52:57.440
<v Speaker 1>and little little things like that can make a difference

0:52:57.480 --> 0:53:01.040
<v Speaker 1>on what sort of action gets taken. I left law

0:53:01.120 --> 0:53:04.560
<v Speaker 1>enforcement and came into the world of media and doing

0:53:04.760 --> 0:53:08.160
<v Speaker 1>things like the podcast series. I was really concerned. I

0:53:08.200 --> 0:53:11.160
<v Speaker 1>didn't want to glorify crime like that was just the

0:53:11.239 --> 0:53:15.319
<v Speaker 1>copying me thought, Okay, how do I navigate my way

0:53:15.360 --> 0:53:20.040
<v Speaker 1>through here without glorifying crime or sensationalizing crime? What I

0:53:20.160 --> 0:53:22.359
<v Speaker 1>found with podcasting world and I just want to get

0:53:22.400 --> 0:53:24.840
<v Speaker 1>your thoughts on it. It is a good way to

0:53:24.880 --> 0:53:27.560
<v Speaker 1>get messaging across. You can make a difference, and it

0:53:27.640 --> 0:53:30.120
<v Speaker 1>might be as simple as having a victim on a

0:53:30.160 --> 0:53:32.960
<v Speaker 1>podcast to explain what they went through and people all

0:53:32.960 --> 0:53:36.439
<v Speaker 1>of a sudden get it. How have you found you've

0:53:36.440 --> 0:53:39.240
<v Speaker 1>worked in law enforcement, now you're working in the media.

0:53:39.280 --> 0:53:41.960
<v Speaker 1>How have you found the transition and have you Do

0:53:41.960 --> 0:53:44.439
<v Speaker 1>you feel comfortable in the role that you're doing within

0:53:44.520 --> 0:53:45.760
<v Speaker 1>this space in the media.

0:53:46.239 --> 0:53:49.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's an interesting question because it's been an evolving

0:53:50.040 --> 0:53:54.000
<v Speaker 2>space and I find that I feel very uncomfortable when

0:53:54.040 --> 0:53:58.799
<v Speaker 2>people sensationalize the killers, and you know, hold them up,

0:53:58.920 --> 0:54:01.439
<v Speaker 2>give them monikers and talk about them as if they's

0:54:01.480 --> 0:54:04.520
<v Speaker 2>something to be celebrated. And you know, to be frank,

0:54:04.640 --> 0:54:07.400
<v Speaker 2>there's no serial killer who's called the small dick killer.

0:54:07.640 --> 0:54:12.239
<v Speaker 2>They are always given these big names, right's yeah. And

0:54:12.280 --> 0:54:14.680
<v Speaker 2>for me having worked those cases, a lot of those

0:54:14.800 --> 0:54:17.640
<v Speaker 2>names like the Yorkshire are word, the Yorkshire Ripper, I'll

0:54:17.680 --> 0:54:20.960
<v Speaker 2>say at once that was the moniker that was given

0:54:21.000 --> 0:54:23.680
<v Speaker 2>to him, and it made law enforcement police officers think

0:54:23.719 --> 0:54:26.840
<v Speaker 2>he was this big, scary character when actually he was

0:54:26.880 --> 0:54:31.239
<v Speaker 2>this small, weedy, you know, high pitched man who every

0:54:31.280 --> 0:54:33.680
<v Speaker 2>time he was in front of them, they couldn't make

0:54:33.760 --> 0:54:36.760
<v Speaker 2>that leap. And so the monikers are really problematic because

0:54:36.760 --> 0:54:39.479
<v Speaker 2>they make the offender feel special, and that still goes

0:54:39.520 --> 0:54:41.719
<v Speaker 2>on in this space of oh, serial killers, like it's

0:54:41.760 --> 0:54:44.279
<v Speaker 2>a real fun thing. But you and I both know

0:54:44.400 --> 0:54:48.440
<v Speaker 2>the devastation and the trauma that's left behind when someone's killed.

0:54:48.480 --> 0:54:51.960
<v Speaker 2>So that makes me feel very uncomfortable. And I think

0:54:52.120 --> 0:54:54.640
<v Speaker 2>there is a balance to be met that you can

0:54:55.480 --> 0:54:59.040
<v Speaker 2>do ethical true crime, you know, reporting or talking about

0:54:59.040 --> 0:55:02.200
<v Speaker 2>a case, allowing victims and survivors to have a platform

0:55:02.239 --> 0:55:06.040
<v Speaker 2>to tell their stories, which is really important for them.

0:55:06.320 --> 0:55:08.879
<v Speaker 2>And you know, making sure that you're telling the right

0:55:09.000 --> 0:55:11.440
<v Speaker 2>facts about a case, because I think there's a lot

0:55:11.440 --> 0:55:14.319
<v Speaker 2>of podcasters who rely on wiki and you and I

0:55:14.400 --> 0:55:16.600
<v Speaker 2>both know that what goes on with the case and

0:55:16.680 --> 0:55:18.799
<v Speaker 2>what's put out, you know, either on wiki or in

0:55:18.840 --> 0:55:22.080
<v Speaker 2>the media, it can give a very distorted view of

0:55:22.120 --> 0:55:24.920
<v Speaker 2>what really went on. And I think those false narratives

0:55:25.520 --> 0:55:28.960
<v Speaker 2>can be very problematic. And you know, podcasters who don't

0:55:28.960 --> 0:55:32.560
<v Speaker 2>even get the victims name right. You know, all of

0:55:32.600 --> 0:55:34.839
<v Speaker 2>those things. It all comes down to, you know, doing

0:55:34.840 --> 0:55:38.000
<v Speaker 2>your research and doing things in a responsible way rather than, oh,

0:55:38.080 --> 0:55:40.520
<v Speaker 2>isn't it exciting, we're talking about true crime and we

0:55:40.560 --> 0:55:43.399
<v Speaker 2>want to make some money and make this a comedy show,

0:55:43.440 --> 0:55:45.840
<v Speaker 2>and isn't it funny this woman was killed? You know.

0:55:45.920 --> 0:55:48.920
<v Speaker 2>That kind of stuff I really find very difficult.

0:55:49.480 --> 0:55:52.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well that's good because it's interesting speaking to someone

0:55:52.760 --> 0:55:55.480
<v Speaker 1>that's gone a similar path. And the things that you

0:55:55.560 --> 0:55:58.680
<v Speaker 1>hit on Mare is that if you're being involved in that,

0:55:58.719 --> 0:56:03.640
<v Speaker 1>you understand the devastation that crime has. I feel comfortable

0:56:03.640 --> 0:56:05.880
<v Speaker 1>in what I do on the podcast and what I

0:56:05.960 --> 0:56:09.839
<v Speaker 1>do in other media forums. I'm not glorifying crime. I'm

0:56:09.880 --> 0:56:14.160
<v Speaker 1>helping people understand crime and also making people aware of

0:56:14.360 --> 0:56:18.240
<v Speaker 1>the stuff that you're doing, like stalking. Hello, we're shouting

0:56:18.280 --> 0:56:21.279
<v Speaker 1>out if someone's stalking you, there's a concern, and we

0:56:21.360 --> 0:56:23.560
<v Speaker 1>shout that out to the police. If someone turns up

0:56:23.560 --> 0:56:25.879
<v Speaker 1>and they've been stalked, have a look at it, because

0:56:25.920 --> 0:56:29.239
<v Speaker 1>it's serious coercive control. I know the work that you've

0:56:29.440 --> 0:56:32.560
<v Speaker 1>done on that and how far that's spread. Such an

0:56:32.600 --> 0:56:36.279
<v Speaker 1>important thing. So there's only so much you can do

0:56:36.520 --> 0:56:39.360
<v Speaker 1>in law enforcement to make a difference. But media provides

0:56:39.400 --> 0:56:43.680
<v Speaker 1>a platform, and podcasting I think provides a great platform

0:56:43.719 --> 0:56:45.960
<v Speaker 1>to get that messaging out. As long as it's the

0:56:46.040 --> 0:56:47.200
<v Speaker 1>right messaging.

0:56:46.920 --> 0:56:49.400
<v Speaker 2>I agree. It can be very empowering. And you know,

0:56:49.400 --> 0:56:52.759
<v Speaker 2>I've heard from thousands and thousands of people. Just today,

0:56:52.760 --> 0:56:55.879
<v Speaker 2>I've got another four messages saying that what I've said

0:56:55.920 --> 0:56:58.239
<v Speaker 2>on a podcast has really help them, and that for

0:56:58.400 --> 0:57:00.680
<v Speaker 2>me makes me walk ten foot two. You know, there's

0:57:00.719 --> 0:57:04.200
<v Speaker 2>no metric to show that success, but for me, that

0:57:04.320 --> 0:57:08.120
<v Speaker 2>is success helping one person. I mean today four people

0:57:08.160 --> 0:57:11.799
<v Speaker 2>message me to say that. Because when you're being victimized,

0:57:11.920 --> 0:57:15.920
<v Speaker 2>often you don't realize the seriousness of what's going on.

0:57:16.240 --> 0:57:18.800
<v Speaker 2>And often if someone was telling you it, you might

0:57:18.800 --> 0:57:20.960
<v Speaker 2>not believe it. So when you realize it in your

0:57:20.960 --> 0:57:23.720
<v Speaker 2>own time. It's a very different experience, you know. And

0:57:23.760 --> 0:57:25.520
<v Speaker 2>as I say to people, if they're worried about a

0:57:25.600 --> 0:57:29.360
<v Speaker 2>relative or someone that they love but they're resistant to

0:57:29.760 --> 0:57:32.000
<v Speaker 2>the conversation, We'll just point them in the direction of

0:57:32.040 --> 0:57:35.000
<v Speaker 2>Dirty John or my podcasts on Crime Analyst. It can

0:57:35.040 --> 0:57:39.040
<v Speaker 2>be so powerful as that kind of tool, and that's

0:57:39.040 --> 0:57:41.160
<v Speaker 2>why I do what I do. And yeah, time is

0:57:41.200 --> 0:57:43.040
<v Speaker 2>always a challenge for me because I'm a mum of

0:57:43.080 --> 0:57:47.080
<v Speaker 2>a little toddler. But I really believe in educating people

0:57:47.160 --> 0:57:49.800
<v Speaker 2>and mainstreaming what I'm doing and not just sitting with

0:57:49.880 --> 0:57:53.680
<v Speaker 2>the knowledge myself, you know, or writing it into an

0:57:53.680 --> 0:57:56.280
<v Speaker 2>academic paper that no one reads. I really want to

0:57:56.320 --> 0:57:59.680
<v Speaker 2>mainstream and get the risks out there because it will

0:57:59.720 --> 0:58:03.240
<v Speaker 2>say lives and it has saved lives and changed lives.

0:58:03.960 --> 0:58:07.120
<v Speaker 1>If people want to listen to your podcasts, where can

0:58:07.160 --> 0:58:08.360
<v Speaker 1>they get your podcasts?

0:58:08.760 --> 0:58:12.000
<v Speaker 2>Yep, Crime Analysts and Real Crime Profile are on every platform,

0:58:12.200 --> 0:58:15.480
<v Speaker 2>so whether it's Spotify, Apple. I've also got a YouTube

0:58:15.520 --> 0:58:19.320
<v Speaker 2>channel for Crime Analyst, and I also have a Patreon

0:58:19.560 --> 0:58:22.919
<v Speaker 2>where we have a lot more discussions, extra episodes and

0:58:22.960 --> 0:58:25.480
<v Speaker 2>it's called the Crime Analyst Squad where I put a

0:58:25.480 --> 0:58:29.480
<v Speaker 2>lot more information, you know, and content on there, and

0:58:29.600 --> 0:58:32.480
<v Speaker 2>we have happy hours where people can ask me questions,

0:58:32.600 --> 0:58:35.080
<v Speaker 2>so you know, it's a way where I can engage

0:58:35.080 --> 0:58:37.480
<v Speaker 2>with people at a far deeper level than you know,

0:58:37.520 --> 0:58:41.480
<v Speaker 2>the seven platforms on social media where I get trolled

0:58:41.520 --> 0:58:46.040
<v Speaker 2>horribly because I'm spotlighting you know, male violence to women,

0:58:46.080 --> 0:58:47.560
<v Speaker 2>and there's a lot of people who don't like the

0:58:47.600 --> 0:58:51.680
<v Speaker 2>fact that I'm talking about saving women's lives. But that's

0:58:51.680 --> 0:58:54.040
<v Speaker 2>not to say I don't work with men either, because

0:58:54.040 --> 0:58:56.600
<v Speaker 2>I do. It's just that when we look at who's

0:58:56.600 --> 0:58:59.400
<v Speaker 2>doing what to whom, the majority of the cases that

0:58:59.440 --> 0:59:02.160
<v Speaker 2>can end up up where you know, people are murdered

0:59:02.240 --> 0:59:04.520
<v Speaker 2>and escalating, it does tend to be men who are

0:59:04.560 --> 0:59:09.480
<v Speaker 2>killing women. It's a disproportionate level. So that's important to

0:59:09.600 --> 0:59:13.760
<v Speaker 2>say because too often women are too polite about what's

0:59:13.760 --> 0:59:18.040
<v Speaker 2>happening to them, or they feel shame or humiliation or judgment.

0:59:18.200 --> 0:59:20.920
<v Speaker 2>So the bit about going into the police, taking someone

0:59:21.000 --> 0:59:23.720
<v Speaker 2>with you, you know, an advocate, and filling out the

0:59:23.800 --> 0:59:27.440
<v Speaker 2>risk assessment is really important. But yeah, you can find

0:59:27.480 --> 0:59:30.120
<v Speaker 2>me on all social media platforms, and do listen to

0:59:30.160 --> 0:59:34.520
<v Speaker 2>the podcast because it's unraveling lots of different types of cases,

0:59:34.560 --> 0:59:37.080
<v Speaker 2>and I hope that that is helpful to.

0:59:37.080 --> 0:59:41.360
<v Speaker 1>People most definitely. I know there'll be a comment going,

0:59:41.440 --> 0:59:43.920
<v Speaker 1>but what about the blokes that are stalked? What about

0:59:43.960 --> 0:59:49.920
<v Speaker 1>the men that the victims of coercive control. Yes they're victims,

0:59:49.960 --> 0:59:53.160
<v Speaker 1>and yes they do need attension, But the sheer volume

0:59:53.320 --> 0:59:56.960
<v Speaker 1>of women the victims in these situations far outweigh the men.

0:59:57.080 --> 0:59:59.920
<v Speaker 1>Would that be a fair assessment, So we're not ignoring

1:00:00.080 --> 1:00:03.200
<v Speaker 1>the men, it's just the nature of the crime is

1:00:03.240 --> 1:00:06.200
<v Speaker 1>more orientated towards women being victims.

1:00:06.760 --> 1:00:09.360
<v Speaker 2>Well, a female firefighter put it this way. She said,

1:00:09.400 --> 1:00:12.000
<v Speaker 2>when she gets a call out to a house that's

1:00:12.040 --> 1:00:14.360
<v Speaker 2>burning and it's in a terrace, she goes to the

1:00:14.360 --> 1:00:16.400
<v Speaker 2>house that is burning in the middle of the terrace.

1:00:16.440 --> 1:00:19.320
<v Speaker 2>She doesn't go to houses that are either side of it.

1:00:20.000 --> 1:00:22.600
<v Speaker 2>And that's what we have to understand that when we

1:00:22.640 --> 1:00:24.440
<v Speaker 2>look at the stats, we look at the figures, we

1:00:24.480 --> 1:00:28.439
<v Speaker 2>look at the disproportionate nature of women being killed by men,

1:00:28.480 --> 1:00:31.360
<v Speaker 2>and that's why we have to have that conversation about

1:00:31.360 --> 1:00:34.160
<v Speaker 2>what's going on for men. And that's not to the

1:00:34.200 --> 1:00:38.480
<v Speaker 2>detriment of excluding boys and men, but we all have

1:00:38.560 --> 1:00:42.320
<v Speaker 2>to be part of the solution, and unfortunately, you know,

1:00:42.400 --> 1:00:45.920
<v Speaker 2>we do see a new Scotland yard. I never started

1:00:45.960 --> 1:00:48.760
<v Speaker 2>my career saying I'm going to work on male violence

1:00:48.800 --> 1:00:51.480
<v Speaker 2>to women. It's just what was given to me in

1:00:51.560 --> 1:00:54.960
<v Speaker 2>terms of the cases that kept happening. You think about

1:00:54.960 --> 1:00:57.920
<v Speaker 2>most serial killers, well, who are they targeting. They're targeting

1:00:58.040 --> 1:01:01.640
<v Speaker 2>women and children. It would make no sense at all

1:01:01.720 --> 1:01:04.880
<v Speaker 2>to disregard what our figures and our statistics and our

1:01:04.920 --> 1:01:08.160
<v Speaker 2>cases show us. And in fact the Home Office in

1:01:08.200 --> 1:01:10.560
<v Speaker 2>England and well show that ninety three percent of the

1:01:10.560 --> 1:01:14.760
<v Speaker 2>perpetrators have coerci control domestic mind its are men and

1:01:15.120 --> 1:01:19.360
<v Speaker 2>why would you disregard that information? It makes no sense.

1:01:20.240 --> 1:01:24.160
<v Speaker 1>Well, look from what I've saying, I've learned about your work,

1:01:24.200 --> 1:01:27.040
<v Speaker 1>and we've only touched on some of the work that

1:01:27.080 --> 1:01:29.080
<v Speaker 1>you've done. We might have to get you back on

1:01:29.160 --> 1:01:32.480
<v Speaker 1>it on again. But the work that you're doing, you

1:01:32.560 --> 1:01:35.000
<v Speaker 1>are actually making a difference. So full credit to you,

1:01:35.080 --> 1:01:38.840
<v Speaker 1>and i'd like to say thank you, but thank you

1:01:38.880 --> 1:01:41.480
<v Speaker 1>for coming not just on the podcast, but you're making

1:01:41.520 --> 1:01:44.160
<v Speaker 1>the world a safer place. Keep up the good work.

1:01:44.200 --> 1:01:46.400
<v Speaker 2>Thank you. Yeah, I mean I think that legacy is

1:01:46.520 --> 1:01:49.240
<v Speaker 2>very important. I want a better place for my son,

1:01:49.600 --> 1:01:53.040
<v Speaker 2>because right now I fear for the next generation with

1:01:53.120 --> 1:01:55.000
<v Speaker 2>the likes of Andrew Tait and just some of the

1:01:55.040 --> 1:01:57.640
<v Speaker 2>things that have been going on. And I take that

1:01:57.680 --> 1:02:01.280
<v Speaker 2>responsibility very seriously and I've always followed the work rather

1:02:01.320 --> 1:02:05.120
<v Speaker 2>than a promotion or a career, So I play my

1:02:05.240 --> 1:02:07.760
<v Speaker 2>part in the way that I can. And I really

1:02:07.760 --> 1:02:10.320
<v Speaker 2>thank you for the work that you've done, and also

1:02:10.760 --> 1:02:14.640
<v Speaker 2>for talking with me and being somebody of shining a

1:02:14.720 --> 1:02:16.880
<v Speaker 2>light and what needs to change. And we need more

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<v Speaker 2>men like you Gary doing that and talking in this

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<v Speaker 2>space and helping people understand what needs to change and

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<v Speaker 2>what needs to be done.

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<v Speaker 1>So thank you, cheers. It's a nice, nice way to end.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks very much. What an impressive person, Laura Richards is.

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<v Speaker 1>I found that chat fascinating and I hope it informs

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<v Speaker 1>people about the dangers of stalking and coercive control and

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<v Speaker 1>all the other indicators that we've got to look out

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<v Speaker 1>for that can prevent major crimes from happening. But the

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<v Speaker 1>work that she does, not just here in Australia but

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<v Speaker 1>across the globe is worth what