1 00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Detective sy a side of life the average person is 3 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 4 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,240 Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a 6 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 7 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 10 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,479 Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 11 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 12 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 13 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. 14 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with renowned 15 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: criminal behavioral analyst Laura Richards. 16 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 2: Welcome back, Laura, Thank you good to be here with you. 17 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: We have got so much to talk about and unpack. 18 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: I find the work that you do fascinating, But the 19 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: thing that's really coming across is that you're looking for 20 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: solutions to prevent crime. Having spent the majority of my 21 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: career as a homicide detective, I was a reactive investigator 22 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: a crime had happened, and then I'd try and solve 23 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: the crime. The thing I missed and what I would 24 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: have liked to do is prevent the crimes through proactive investigation. 25 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: You've identified criminal behaviors that a red flags indicators, and 26 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: I know you've been very prominent when you talk about 27 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:36,040 Speaker 1: the stalking cases. Do you want to talk to us 28 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 1: about what it is about stalking that causes you so 29 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: much concern? Like I feel silly saying that question, because 30 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: it's obvious if you're a stalker, something is not right. 31 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: That's my take on it from a detective or just 32 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: as a member of society. If you're stalking, there's problems. Yeah. 33 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 2: Well, I think even if you take the word stalking, 34 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 2: it's still used in a comedic sense of I'm not 35 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 2: stalking you high. It's seen as something that's funny rather 36 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 2: than something that's quite sinister and insidious and actually really 37 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 2: terrifying when it happens to you. And my first five 38 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,679 Speaker 2: years working at New Scotland Yard on stranger rate, murder 39 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 2: and abduction cases, majority of them the offenders when we 40 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 2: caught them, we would call them predatory stalkers. They were 41 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 2: doing indecent exposures. They were doing lots of gateway crimes 42 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 2: that we wouldn't necessarily called stalking, and so the stalking 43 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 2: would be missed. And when we think about it in 44 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 2: the predatory sense, they're the most dangerous types of offenders, 45 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 2: but we often also see it with domestic violence offenders 46 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 2: the course of controllers. And one of the cases that 47 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 2: really alerted me to the risks and dangers myself when 48 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 2: I worked at New Scotland Yard was the murder of 49 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 2: a young woman called Claire Burnell who was shot dead 50 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 2: in Harvey Nichols. And it was in two thousand and five, 51 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 2: September thirteenth, two thousand and five, and I was working 52 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 2: late at new Scotland Yard and it came on the 53 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 2: news headlines that the news presenter said two people have 54 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 2: been shot dead in Harvey Nichols. And I thought that 55 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 2: sounds odd, two people being shot dead. And then my 56 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 2: pager went and you know, my phone went that I 57 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 2: was asked by one of the heads, one of the commanders, 58 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 2: would I review the case that the two people who 59 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 2: were shot dead. Well, Claire Bernow was working in Harvey Nichols. 60 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 2: She was working on one of the makeup counters. But 61 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 2: the other person who was shot there was someone called 62 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 2: Michael Pesh. He shot her and then he shot himself, 63 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 2: So our homicide detectives went in to Harvey Nichols. It 64 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 2: wasn't like an active shooter situation. It was a what 65 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 2: we found out to be a relationship that Claire didn't 66 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 2: want anymore. And this guy worked as part of the 67 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 2: security team at Harvey Nichols and he had actually lost 68 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 2: his job because Claire had reported him for his behavior. 69 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 2: And when I started to do a desktop review, because 70 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 2: the commander said, I want to know everything about this case, 71 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 2: what was known to us, and I did the review 72 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 2: and found out that she had reported multiple times to us, 73 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 2: the police, and that we didn't really understand what was 74 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 2: going on. And you know, I say that because the 75 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 2: language of stalking wasn't understood and it wasn't used. Claire 76 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 2: was saying that she was terrified of this man, Michael Pesh, 77 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 2: who she had dated on three occasions, and that he 78 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 2: had declared his love for her on date number two 79 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 2: and it made her feel very uncomfortable. And date number three, 80 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 2: he forced her to drive to her home address and 81 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 2: he refused to move from her home address, and she 82 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 2: just didn't know what to do because she couldn't get 83 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 2: him out. But it was the first time that she felt, 84 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 2: you know, she didn't want this relationship. She didn't want 85 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 2: to upset him. She was trying to let him down gently, 86 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 2: but she told him, I don't want to go out 87 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 2: with you anymore. Well, the next time she encounters him, 88 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 2: she had finished work in Harvey Nichols and had gone 89 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,359 Speaker 2: home on the tube and he had blocked her exit 90 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 2: from the tube. He was following her and on the 91 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 2: same carriage as her, and she went to get out 92 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,359 Speaker 2: and he blocked her exit, and she stepped forward and 93 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 2: he stepped forward to her, so they were nose to nose, 94 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 2: and he smiled, and she said, get off of me, 95 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 2: or I'll call the police. And he says, as he 96 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 2: strokes her face and smiles, if you call the police, 97 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,919 Speaker 2: I will kill you. And if I can't have you, 98 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 2: no one can. This was written on the crime report Gary, 99 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 2: and I literally the hairs on my arms and the 100 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 2: back of my neck went up, knowing that he meant 101 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 2: what he said. And that was her first report to 102 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 2: the police. She had told her friend who worked in 103 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 2: Harvey Nichols as well. When she got home what had 104 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 2: been said, and the friend said, you must tell the 105 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 2: head of security at Harvey Nichols, and that's what they did. 106 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 2: They made the call. They met with the head of 107 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 2: security at Harvey Nichols and he said, we must report 108 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 2: this to the police. He took it very seriously, so 109 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 2: that was the first report, and you know, from there 110 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 2: on out, I found out a lot of other things 111 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 2: that had happened. But she reported him. He was arrested 112 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 2: when he was in uniform in Harvey Nichols and as 113 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 2: a security guard, and of course that didn't go down well, 114 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 2: and then he ended up being balled. And it was 115 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 2: when he was bailed. He left the country, went back 116 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 2: into the country with a firearm, and he had actually 117 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 2: been suspended at this time from Harvey Nichols. The head 118 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 2: of security took it that seriously and then he lost 119 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 2: his job and he blamed Claire for it. And he 120 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 2: went back into Harvey Nichols at twenty to eight. He 121 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,919 Speaker 2: realized all the security guards had been told not to 122 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 2: let him in, but he knew the layout of the store. 123 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 2: He went in through a side door and we had 124 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 2: eyewitnesses confirmed that they saw him. Claire was looking at her, 125 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 2: what saying, we're almost done here because they were going 126 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 2: to wend their shift in twenty minutes, and he went 127 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 2: up behind her, shot her once in the back of 128 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 2: the head, four times in the face to obliterate her. 129 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 2: And you know, my colleagues went in and that was 130 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 2: the crime scene that they found. But for me unraveling 131 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 2: all the things that happened, well a lot of it 132 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 2: was on our crime reports system, and I said, you know, 133 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 2: it's not good. She had told us these things. She 134 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 2: was in fear of her life, and we arrested him, 135 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 2: we interviewed him, but then he was bailed. And the 136 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 2: first thing that the first bail, he went round to 137 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 2: see her immediately and threatened her. And then he's re arrested, 138 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 2: but he's bailed again. And that's the problem that it 139 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 2: was only ever seen as a harassment case, a Section 140 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 2: two harrissment, even though he made threats to kill, and 141 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 2: he was bailed because it wasn't seen as that serious. 142 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 2: And one of our officers who interviewed him, she was 143 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 2: a probationer, just off of probation, no supervision, which is 144 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 2: why for me it's always I look to the supervisors. 145 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 2: And she interviewed him and he said, look, I just 146 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 2: love her. I just want to tell her that I 147 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 2: love her. Come on office, so you've been in love 148 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 2: before and she kind of yeah, you know, I understand that, 149 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 2: but that wasn't what he was and who he was 150 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 2: if she had understood his behavior better, but she didn't 151 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 2: because she was a probationers. She didn't have experience, she 152 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 2: didn't have a supervisor helping her, and things you know, 153 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 2: ended up in a catastrophic event. 154 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: Just on that that taking it back, but I love her, 155 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,079 Speaker 1: and the officer buying into that, I can just see. 156 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: I've got a vision of how that plays out in 157 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:41,079 Speaker 1: the police station. You've got a probationary constable taking that report, 158 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: interviewed him and look, he's not going to harm her. 159 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 1: He says that he loves her. Like to me, that's warning, warning, warning, 160 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: but that I suppose that comes with experience and seeing 161 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: the end results as you would have. But I imagine that 162 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 1: probationary constable then goes to a supervisor and the briefing 163 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 1: would be, I look like, I think he's a risk 164 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: because he said he loves her. I think he's he 165 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: just wants to get back together again, So the supervisor 166 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: would be going, ah, okay, that's okay, and then the 167 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: case is forgotten. What you've just outlined there. I was 168 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: in horror right from the yeah I love you on 169 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: the second date type situation. That was warning, warning, there's 170 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: a potential problem there. You've talked us through what's happened, 171 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: what points should have something been done differently? And what 172 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 1: is that thing that should have been done differently, whether 173 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: it's a bail, whether it's a courts How do you 174 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: think we resolve a situation like that so it doesn't 175 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:39,839 Speaker 1: happen again. 176 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, in this case changed my life, and 177 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 2: it changed my whole career and my whole way of thinking. 178 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 2: So it really did have an impact because I met 179 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 2: her mother and I learned so much more from her mum, Tricia, 180 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 2: of what was going on behind the scenes. And you know, 181 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 2: Tricia said to me, when Claire came to me and 182 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 2: told me everything that was happening, I never ever thought 183 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 2: that he would kill her because that happens to people 184 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 2: in the newspapers, not to people like us from Tunbridge Wells. 185 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 2: And that was the first learning point that families never 186 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:15,959 Speaker 2: expected to end up in that place, and nor did Claire. 187 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 2: But the risks were very apparent. And Tricia was giving 188 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 2: her advice as a mum, saying, oh, well, maybe he's 189 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 2: just fallen in love. But Claire was saying, no, you know, 190 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 2: I don't love him, and what am I meant to 191 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 2: say to him? You know? She felt so uncomfortable. And 192 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 2: then he was using other people in Harvey Nichols to 193 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 2: make his case to her of why she should give 194 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 2: him a second chance. He used other people to stalk 195 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 2: her and pressure her. So if we had done our 196 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 2: jobs right in terms of collecting all the evidence, we 197 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 2: would have got a proper statement from Claire. I mean 198 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 2: it was half a page long. And yet when I 199 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:57,079 Speaker 2: sat down with Trisha and when I dug into the case, 200 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 2: there was so much more to it. The head of 201 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 2: security really intrigued me and I wanted to know how 202 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 2: he took it seriously, and it came down to experience. Right. 203 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 2: He was a former police officer. He understood how dangerous 204 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 2: Pesh was. But you know what could we have done differently, Well, 205 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 2: we could have got a statement from him and looked 206 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 2: at in his investigation, but we didn't. So to sack someone, 207 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:23,679 Speaker 2: you have to have a whole documented history of you know, 208 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:27,199 Speaker 2: going through the oral warnings, the written warnings, the suspension, 209 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 2: and then you fire. But the officers didn't take the 210 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 2: information that he offered them, and that was a huge 211 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 2: problem for me because I felt that on review of 212 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:39,959 Speaker 2: the case that you've got the new and the old. 213 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 2: You know, back off, old timer, we're the police, don't 214 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 2: tell us what to do. I can imagine that kind 215 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 2: of attitude, and unfortunately it ended up with Claire being 216 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 2: brutally killed because if they had looked at that investigation, 217 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 2: they would have found out that he was asking colleagues 218 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 2: what kind of sentence do you get for murder in 219 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 2: this country? He was asking questions that showed intent that 220 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 2: he planned to do something far more odious and sinister, 221 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 2: and that's exactly what he did. So I come I 222 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 2: use this case in training a lot because there's so 223 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 2: much more that we could have done and should have done. 224 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:19,599 Speaker 2: There was a section four A sorry, Section four harassment. 225 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 2: There are two tiers to the Harassment Act, which really 226 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 2: came in for stalking, but the section four carries up 227 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 2: to five years in prison. But they didn't even look 228 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 2: at it as a Section four case. It just got 229 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 2: dropped to a Section two, which is you go to 230 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 2: magistrates court maximum six months, but most get a slap 231 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 2: on the wrist. So that's where the stalking law came in. 232 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 2: There wasn't a stalking law per se, and that's what 233 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 2: I wanted to change. But there was a threat to 234 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 2: kill and there was a Section four harrissmen, and the 235 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 2: CPS dropped it to a much lesser and that was 236 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 2: hugely problematic. So the investigation was problematic because oh, he 237 00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 2: just said he loves her, he doesn't mean to harm her. 238 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 2: Whole understanding of what Claire was telling us, you know, 239 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:08,199 Speaker 2: it wasn't understood as stalking is serious. That he didn't 240 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 2: physically hit her, but what he was threatening, the way 241 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 2: that he delivered the threat was so chilling, and yet 242 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 2: it wasn't followed up on. So there were there were 243 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,719 Speaker 2: so many junctures where I call it, you take a 244 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 2: domino out and you change, you know, that escalation of behavior. 245 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 2: And look, he still could have been fixated, right, he 246 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 2: could have gone to prison and served let's say six 247 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 2: months or let's say eighteen weeks. He still might have 248 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 2: come out and been fixated on Claire or he then 249 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,319 Speaker 2: moves on to the next woman. He always would have 250 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 2: been a problem. And that's why I always say to 251 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 2: police and others that I train deal with it right time, 252 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 2: first time round, because they're still going to be a 253 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,559 Speaker 2: problem down the line. And that's the nature of fixation 254 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 2: and obsessive behavior. 255 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 1: Okay with that, whether the courts have a responsibility as well. 256 00:13:57,600 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: But whinding it back to the figures you were to 257 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: talking about one in two if they've been in an 258 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 1: intimate relationship and they're stalking and they make a threat 259 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: to kill. So once that's done, just based on past 260 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: behaviors statistics, there's a fifty to fifty chance this person 261 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 1: might be killed. Imagine the resources that would be applied 262 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: if you came out with that saying this person is 263 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: going to be killed. But we miss the point, don't we. 264 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: So it is a large part of it is about education. 265 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: And you use the story of the retired, wise, battle 266 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: hardened cop that's now working security, knowing from his experience 267 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 1: how dangerous this is. But in the police it's been missed. 268 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: But that's tragic, isn't it. So like every part of 269 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: when you're breaking down the incidents, red flag red flag 270 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: concern concern and it wasn't circumvented. Do you think there's 271 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: and I want to delve into coercive control, but we're 272 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: stalking a situation like that, because invariably a stalker doesn't 273 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: back off after the first warning, like Okay, we're going 274 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: to go to the police AVO. Then they breach the AVO, 275 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: they go to the court, blah blah blah. What about 276 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: electronic monitoring on people like that? Do you think that 277 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: there's something that we've just got to adopt technology like 278 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: ankle bracelet. 279 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 2: I do, and I don't know why we're not doing it. 280 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 2: I mean, it's the simplest thing really to do, to 281 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 2: use technology. We know that orders on their own, a 282 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 2: piece of paper doesn't stop a stalker. So I think 283 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 2: we've just got to get real to the fact that 284 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 2: a piece of paper saying don't do it again, it 285 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 2: is not going to stop them. But that's also where 286 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 2: I would like to see them on the same register 287 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 2: as sex offenders. You know, they some of them are 288 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 2: sex offenders, and some of them are incredibly dangerous who 289 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 2: go on to murder. And so if you start one woman, 290 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 2: two three, you know, why aren't we putting them on 291 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 2: the same database as terrorists and sex offenders and problem 292 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 2: solving them in the same way. And some of them 293 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 2: do need a psychiatric intervention, so we're just going to 294 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 2: it's a revolving door. We keep having to deal with 295 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 2: the same people and their histories aren't being joined up. 296 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 2: And that's what's for me, the twenty three year campaign 297 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 2: to join up violent men's histories. It's predominantly men, not 298 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 2: always exclusively, but you know, it's these are power and 299 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 2: control related crimes, and the police, the courts, the system 300 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 2: has to take the power and control back and away 301 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 2: from them from these dangerous individuals, so you have to 302 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 2: problem solve them, and with that you need a multi 303 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 2: agency response. 304 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: And are you making headway in that front? Correct me 305 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, But twenty thirteen the world's first national 306 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: stalking Advocacy service. So you're starting to get the message out. 307 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: But what has actually happened with what you're promoting and 308 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: what you're pushing. What steps forward have we taken or 309 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: do we just sit here horrified, going this shouldn't happen 310 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 1: and do nothing and wait until the next one happens 311 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: and we are how did that occur. 312 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean my work always been evidence based and 313 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 2: Claire Bernow's case was one of many that I use 314 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 2: to talk to parliamentarians about in terms of changing the 315 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:10,919 Speaker 2: law and creating the stalking law. And then when you 316 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 2: talk out in the media, victims contact you. And I 317 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 2: was receiving hundreds and hundreds of contacts every time I 318 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 2: talked about stalking. So that's where Paladin came from. The 319 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 2: National Stalking Advocacy Service, the first of its kind in 320 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 2: the world. But we're still not doing enough, you know, 321 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 2: And I think predominantly we spend too long looking at 322 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 2: what the victim did or didn't do, and we don't 323 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 2: spend enough time looking at the perpetrator and closing them down. 324 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 2: And that's the bit that all across the world is 325 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 2: missing the accountability and responsibility on the perpetrator and working 326 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 2: in a multi agency forum, just like we do with 327 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 2: the most dangerous terrorists, the most dangerous sex offenders, to 328 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 2: look at every aspect of their life and work with 329 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,360 Speaker 2: them to create that change. And that's where it's Some 330 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 2: do need psychiatric assessment, some not all of them, but 331 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 2: often it is about power and control. That's what they're 332 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 2: trying that's what's motivating them. So you've got to take 333 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 2: it away from them. And we've still got so much 334 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 2: more work to do. The resistance to tackling this, whether 335 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:19,439 Speaker 2: it's in Australia, America, the UK, Canada, there's been such resistance, Gary, 336 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 2: and I really feel it's because most the majority of 337 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 2: legislators are men and it just doesn't happen to them, 338 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,199 Speaker 2: So they just don't understand how frightening it is to 339 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 2: be a woman moving about in this world. And men 340 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 2: only get it when they have a daughter and then 341 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 2: she's dating and then they realize, you know, what the 342 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 2: risks are. But oftentimes, you know, by the grace of God, 343 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 2: go I. And that's why we need more legislators, and 344 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 2: you know, senior folk who are women, Because with Sarah Everett, 345 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 2: all these women came out and talked about how we 346 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 2: have to risk manage our day, even going out, you know, 347 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 2: to go for a rum. Women are murdered. Oh wish 348 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 2: she shouldn't have been wearing headphones, or she shouldn't have 349 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 2: been looking at her phone. Oh well, she shouldn't have 350 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 2: left her drink unattended. We spend far too long looking 351 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,400 Speaker 2: at what the victim did, and not focusing on the offender. 352 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 2: And that's been really the hill that I'm going to 353 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 2: die on, the of transferring you know, the lens onto 354 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 2: the offender. And it's kind of what Justsel Pellicott's saying 355 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 2: in France, right, the shame needs to switch sides, that 356 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 2: we need to flip our gaze onto the perpetrators and 357 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 2: focus on them rather than keep saying that we don't 358 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:31,919 Speaker 2: believe victims, we don't take it seriously. Oh, they're not 359 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 2: going to escalate to murder. That's the stuff of movies. 360 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 2: I hear police officers say this to victims every day, 361 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 2: you know, and it's really disheartening when you look at 362 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,360 Speaker 2: the increasing femicide rate. So I kind of feel I'm 363 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 2: still in the eye of the storm of my work. 364 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 2: It's not finished. I'm not just a podcaster. I put 365 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 2: this stuff on a podcast because I think people learn 366 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 2: at different times, and podcasting is very intimate that you 367 00:19:56,359 --> 00:20:00,080 Speaker 2: hear things I have on crime analyst, judges, magistrates, probation officers, 368 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 2: police officers, psychiatrists, you know, the full gamut of people 369 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 2: who listen. They're the ones that can create the change. 370 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 2: And you know, the media form of podcasting makes this 371 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 2: knowledge now so much more accessible. That's why I do 372 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 2: the podcast to raise awareness and to put the solutions 373 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,959 Speaker 2: out there. But it's about people grabbing those things and 374 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 2: being really committed to want to create change and not 375 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,439 Speaker 2: just paying lip service to it, which is what happened 376 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 2: in the wake of Sarah Everett. There was no grip, 377 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,439 Speaker 2: there was no grasp from legislators. They didn't. They voted 378 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:40,959 Speaker 2: down having the Register of serial domestic abuse as is stalkings, 379 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 2: and that will make the biggest change. 380 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 1: I think who would vote that down? I don't see 381 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 1: any harm in having a register like that. I think 382 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: the evidence supports the need for it. And why people 383 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 1: think that's an invasion the privacy will be in stalked 384 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:00,199 Speaker 1: by someone's an invasion of privacy too, Like I not, 385 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: for the life of me see why people wouldn't buy 386 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: into that. 387 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 2: Well, that's it, Gary, it's who are we protecting? Are 388 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 2: we protecting the right people? 389 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: You know? 390 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 2: And you can have that debate in court if you 391 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,639 Speaker 2: decide that you're going to put the perpetrators right to 392 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 2: privacy ahead of the victims right to safety. And for 393 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 2: too long it's been skewed to perpetrators and that needs 394 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:23,880 Speaker 2: to be course corrected because as long as you're making 395 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 2: defensible decisions i e. They've done A, B and C 396 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 2: and that's where the risk assessment comes in, then you 397 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:31,160 Speaker 2: can defend your. 398 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: Decision on that risk assessment. Do you want to break 399 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: that down? That's DASH? Is that the acronym for it. 400 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 2: The domestic abuse? Yeah, domestic abuse, stalk, king and harassment 401 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 2: and on a base violence risk model. Hence why we 402 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 2: call it the DASH because it's a real mouthful. 403 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: Just break that down the type of things and how 404 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 1: that can be used and to be used by law 405 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: enforcement officers so they can have a look at it 406 00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: and quantify what the risks are. 407 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the idea behind it was having profiled. 408 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,199 Speaker 2: I didn't just profile murders. I took four hundred and 409 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 2: fifty domestic violence, sexual offenders and serious offenders and looked 410 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 2: at them backwards their histories and then one hundred and 411 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 2: fourteen thousand allegations of domestic abuse in one year in 412 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 2: two thousand and one that was recorded and reported to police. 413 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 2: And out of that I looked at the patterns because 414 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 2: you can't just take murder. And when I presented on 415 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 2: those patterns. The Deputy Assistant Commissioner at New Scotland Yard 416 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 2: said in front of three hundred officers that research is 417 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 2: really interesting, but what difference does it make to the 418 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 2: late term van driver at three in the morning. How 419 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 2: does she respond differently to the domestic violence call out? 420 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 2: And that's where this set of questions came from. So 421 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 2: I worked with lots of different police officers, agencies, specialist agencies, 422 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 2: victims groups, We ran focus groups and this took years 423 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 2: to do and created what was first called the SPECS 424 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 2: plus and then it evolved into the DASH. So it's 425 00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:59,919 Speaker 2: a set of questions that there's a call out to 426 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 2: the police, or it might even be housing or education 427 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 2: or health. Anyone can use this tool and you ask 428 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 2: the victim this set of questions and they are the 429 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 2: mirror because they know the perpetrator the best. They hold 430 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 2: up the mirror to the perpetrator's behavior and then they 431 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 2: are the expert on their own situation. And then you 432 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 2: can start to inform your investigation as well as collect 433 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 2: evidence as well as understand risk as it's standard, medium 434 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 2: or high, and if it's high, then it goes to 435 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 2: a multi agency meeting who problems solve the case and 436 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 2: they should look at safety planning for the victim, but 437 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 2: perpetrator risk management and they're two sides of the same 438 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 2: coin and you have to do the two things together. 439 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 2: So across England and Wales we had every police force 440 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,919 Speaker 2: using this one toolkit and all partner agencies signed up 441 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 2: to it and it's a really important tool that is 442 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,119 Speaker 2: evidence based and we reduce murders by using the tool 443 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 2: and we also saw a reduction in women killing the abuser. 444 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 2: So we previously in London we would have at least 445 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 2: six women every year who would kill the abuser because 446 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,679 Speaker 2: there was never an intervention. And then we went to 447 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 2: zero zero, zero zero zero because women were being believed 448 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 2: and listened to. And that's an important thing to say 449 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 2: right here in America with the Menendez brother's case where 450 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,640 Speaker 2: they were victims of course of control and sexual violence 451 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:28,360 Speaker 2: and then they killed the abusers because they realized that 452 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 2: no one was going to save them. It was a 453 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 2: safeguarding failure. So that's where the tool is so important 454 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 2: for victims, including children, of understanding what's going on for them, 455 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 2: validating their experience and then using it as information for 456 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 2: action to understand risk and then get into the risk 457 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:46,639 Speaker 2: management piece. 458 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: You just mentioned the brothers. I want to talk about 459 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: that because it's very prominent the moment. There's a lot 460 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: of moody going on now and I as I understand 461 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: that it's about whether they should be released from prison. 462 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,640 Speaker 1: What's a bexter that. Because it's on Netflix, it's got 463 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,360 Speaker 1: world wide attention. What's your knowledge and background on that. 464 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been covering this case for almost two years 465 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,439 Speaker 2: before it was sort of really talked about as it 466 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:16,680 Speaker 2: is now in the media, and I was really perplexed 467 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 2: about the fact that these brothers were well everyone was 468 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,439 Speaker 2: told through the DA's office and the media that they 469 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 2: were greedy, rich kids. But I remembered at the time, 470 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 2: the crime scene didn't point to that. The crime scene 471 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:35,719 Speaker 2: pointed to obliteration, and when children obliterate their parents like that, 472 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 2: there's something else going on. And so I kind of 473 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,199 Speaker 2: went into the case not knowing what I would find. 474 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 2: But the biggest challenge for me was understanding why the 475 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 2: judge made certain decisions. At trial one Court TV, it 476 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 2: was all televised and it ended up in a hung 477 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 2: jury because there were two sorry, two juries. They heard 478 00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 2: evidence from fifty three witnesses from school teacher, coaches, and 479 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:05,119 Speaker 2: family members who all talked about Jose's abuse of the 480 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 2: two boys. And they had experts like Dr Rambergess who testified, 481 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 2: having assessteric that he was sexually abused by Jose and 482 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 2: it resulted in a hung jury. Now, there are a 483 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 2: number of other things that happened in LA between the 484 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 2: time of Trial IE and Trial two, like the Rodney 485 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 2: King case where there were race riots in the wake 486 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 2: of the acquittal, and then you had oj Simpson eight 487 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 2: days before Trial two starting being acquitted and the judge, 488 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 2: the same judge, Judge Stanley Wisberg, presided over both trials, 489 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 2: and what I couldn't understand in Trial two was why 490 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 2: he made the decision to not allow all the previous 491 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 2: witnesses to testify to the abuse. And the DA's office 492 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 2: made the case that it was irrelevant to hear that evidence. Well, 493 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 2: it was wholly relevant to the defense in terms of 494 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 2: the why they did it? This was never a who 495 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 2: done it? Case? Right, the boys confessed to it. It 496 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 2: wasn't who done it? Was a why done it? So 497 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 2: it's wholly relevant and talks to motivation. But Judge Stanley 498 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 2: Weisberg eviscerated the defense. He then determined that not only 499 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 2: would he agree that they shouldn't testify, so it was 500 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,120 Speaker 2: only Eric who testified about the abuse. He then decided 501 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 2: that the defense were not allowed to use the imperfect 502 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 2: self defense defense, i e. That the boys, in their 503 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 2: state of mind, they believed that there was a genuine 504 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 2: fear that they would be killed. Therefore they killed before 505 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 2: because of the thousand cuts of abuse before that, and 506 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 2: with that, it meant that only murder was on the table. 507 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 2: It was murder or nothing, It was never manslaughter. Yeah, yeah, 508 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 2: So the jury in the penalty phase, because it was 509 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 2: a death penalty case as well, only ever had murder 510 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 2: or nothing. In the penalty phase, they heard all about 511 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 2: the abuse, and some of the jurors said, if they 512 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 2: had heard about that abuse, they would not have voted 513 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:02,159 Speaker 2: for murder, and their appeals ran, but they weren't. They 514 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 2: weren't seen as well. The appeals weren't granted in two 515 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 2: thousand and five. But in twenty twenty, Court TV put 516 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 2: all the first trial online and so I started to 517 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 2: go back through it or and found Lar's testimony just 518 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 2: so compelling and then covering the case. Once the Menudo 519 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:24,400 Speaker 2: and Menendez. Sorry, the Menendez and Menudo boys portrayed documentary 520 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 2: landed on Peacock in twenty twenty three, and myself and 521 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 2: Jim Clemente dug into that and realized that Jose Menendez, 522 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,479 Speaker 2: as I had always believed, harmed other boys, not just 523 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 2: Lyle and Eric. So that was new evidence that was 524 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 2: found by Robert Randa, journalist who had followed the case, 525 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 2: both sat at both trials, reported on it. But he 526 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 2: also found a letter that Eric had written to his 527 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 2: cousin Andy Caino, where eight months before they shot their parents, 528 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 2: he had talked about the sexual abuse. So that's the 529 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 2: new evidence that's now in the habeas petitions. 530 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: Signific new evidence, isn't it. 531 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 2: Yeah? The trials never they know at the court never 532 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 2: heard about that. And then you've got the rehabilitation and 533 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 2: resentencing peace. So they've got the habeas petition that talks 534 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 2: about the new evidence that was submitted twenty four hours 535 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 2: after the Peacock Menndas and Menudo documentary landed. But you've 536 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 2: also got in California there's the resentencing and rehabilitation arm 537 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 2: to the District Attorney here, George Gascon has started that 538 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 2: when you look back in time, if cases were disproportionately sentenced, 539 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 2: or if the offenders have been rehabilitated, their unit will 540 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 2: look at those cases and resentence because the Mennder's brothers 541 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 2: have always been model inmates, and you know, the rehabilitation 542 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 2: piece shows that. You know, they've both got degrees, they've 543 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,719 Speaker 2: helped paint murals and done green projects, and they've mentored 544 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 2: other abuse victims in prison, and lots of the wardens 545 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 2: say they would have them as neighbors. So there's a 546 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 2: case to be made for the resentence, and that's what 547 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 2: George Gascon has said the district attorneys. So the whole 548 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 2: family flew in last week to La to talk to 549 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 2: George Gascon's unit, the re sentencing unit, about why from 550 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 2: both sides of the family, Jose's family and Kitty's family, 551 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,959 Speaker 2: why they support their nephews, their cousins, and why they 552 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 2: believe they should be released. Which I don't know if 553 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 2: you've ever seen that in your career, but I've never 554 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 2: seen something like that, And I went to the courthouse 555 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 2: and I was absolutely amazed by what they said from 556 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 2: both sides of the family. I've just never seen that before. 557 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 2: In almost thirty years of view. 558 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: No, I definitely haven't seen that, but what a fascinating 559 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 1: case because I've watched it from afar. But thanks for 560 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: the insight into that. I can see why it's captured 561 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: so many people's attention. Fascinating. We want to talk coerci 562 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: control before we leave the stalking that it's a situation 563 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 1: that people have got all appreciate it for the crime 564 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: that it is and the potential, the warning signs, the 565 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: indicators there, and you know, we talked about trying to 566 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 1: make a difference on podcasts or people a platform for people. 567 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: Law enforcement's got to be educated about it, the courts 568 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 1: have got to be educated about it, and people have 569 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: got to accept that stalking is a crime that is 570 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: an indicator that something terrible might happen down the track. 571 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: I just want to bang on about when we all 572 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: supposedly had COVID they could track everyone's movements all over 573 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 1: the country, and that we had the technology and the capability. 574 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: Why someone who's stalking someone, perhaps they get one chance warned, Okay, 575 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: your attention is not welcome. After that, the courts put 576 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: an ankle bracelet on them. That has to give the 577 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 1: victim some peace. And you talked about Hannah Clark's situation. 578 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: Lloyd and Sue Clark. I know Hannah's parents and I've 579 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 1: had them on the podcast and got to know them 580 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: quite well. That was coercive control and the relationship that 581 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 1: Hannah was in with the killer. But they talked about 582 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: and I asked Lloyd and Sue whether if they had 583 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 1: an ankle bracelet, if he had had an ankle bracelet, 584 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: would have that made Hannah feel safer because they could 585 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: see the warning signs coming in And they said most definitely. 586 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 1: I would go as far as to say if she 587 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: knew that he was in the area, that she and 588 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: the three beautiful children would still be alive. So it's 589 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: a pretty heavy way to lead into coercive control. But 590 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: I know you've been instrumental, not just here in Australia 591 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 1: but overseas as well about getting legislation changed. 592 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 2: Yes, I mean Hannah's case with the children, Dahlia, Leana 593 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 2: and Trey just utterly just devastating. And I remember that 594 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 2: unfolding and watching that from here in Los Angeles, and 595 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 2: I did one day immediately what his history was of 596 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 2: doing that. I mean, setting them on fires, just one 597 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 2: of the cruelest and most torturous ways to harm and 598 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 2: to kill. And I suspected he would have a history. 599 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 2: And you know, often we do see course of control 600 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 2: and stalking the two things co occurring together, and you 601 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 2: can be stalked within a relationship as well as after 602 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 2: the relationship ends. But the course of control element what 603 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 2: we it really is about a power imbalance and an unfreedom. 604 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 2: They're the first words are used to describe it. The 605 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 2: unfreedom is that the victim doesn't have their own agency 606 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 2: and autonomy and they've often been psychologically undone and isolated. 607 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 2: So it's a behavioral regime where someone creates this codependency 608 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 2: and way of controlling the other person, whether it's isolating them, 609 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 2: which you see in most cases, where it's controlling finances, 610 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 2: controlling their movements, who they see, their time, what they wear. 611 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 2: You know, the set of rules and regulations that come 612 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:13,719 Speaker 2: in slowly and insidiously that most victims don't even know 613 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 2: that those rules exist, and they have to live by 614 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 2: the perpetrators rules and regulations and if they break those 615 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 2: rules and regulations, there's a consequence. But the rules and 616 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 2: regulations there's a double standard. They don't apply to the perpetrator. 617 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 2: They only apply to the victim and or the children. 618 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 2: So it's the psychological undoing that's very important to understand, 619 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 2: the lack of freedom of choice. So with Hannah not 620 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 2: being allowed to wear pink, not allowed to wear a bikini, 621 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 2: he said, let's do a joint Facebook, i e. If 622 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 2: they have a joint Facebook account, he can control everything 623 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 2: that's going out there. Although it might look like, oh, 624 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 2: let's just be a nice couple, you know, to everybody else, 625 00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,799 Speaker 2: it looks like, you know, maybe they're just being very 626 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 2: too z and coupperly, But actually it's about how he's 627 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 2: creating all these mediums to control her space for action, 628 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 2: and that really is what we look for, you know, 629 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 2: whether the victim does have freedom of choice and whose 630 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 2: rules are they living by and whose needs are being met. 631 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 2: So it's actually quite a sophisticated thing, and most victims 632 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:26,360 Speaker 2: don't even know they're being victimized because of the power 633 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,759 Speaker 2: imbalance between men and women that still exists in everyday 634 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 2: daily life and in the patriarchy. And it literally is 635 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 2: just a notch up from what people see as acceptable 636 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 2: behavior to unacceptable behavior. And you know, that power imbalance. 637 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,399 Speaker 2: Hannah being that much younger than him. 638 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:45,799 Speaker 1: You know. 639 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,319 Speaker 2: Sometimes we see it in age, sometimes we see it 640 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 2: within status like celebrity reaver Esteamcamp and Oscar Pistorius, O J. 641 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 2: Simpson and Nicole you know. So that there's a lot 642 00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 2: that we have to unravel. But I always look for 643 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 2: the power balanced before and unfreedom. Does she have freedom 644 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,959 Speaker 2: of choice or not? Or is she being coerced into 645 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 2: behaving a certain way? The walking on eggshells because she 646 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 2: doesn't want to upset him and the rules that he's 647 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 2: laid down. 648 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so to implement that type of type of 649 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,840 Speaker 1: behavior understanding, I'll talk about it from a police officer's 650 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: point of view with domestic violence that quite often we 651 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 1: would attend and it's yeah, it's the bread and butther 652 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:37,400 Speaker 1: of most frontline police attending domestic violence situations. But without 653 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 1: the coercive control we had to look for. Okay, as 654 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 1: there been a physical assault, has there been a criminal offense? 655 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 1: And we didn't have in the legislation. The criminal offense 656 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 1: at coercive control is that there is an offense being committed. 657 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 1: If let's say your bank account, you're not allowed to 658 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 1: access your bank account, I'll drip for you the money 659 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 1: you're not allowed to contact your friends. I need to 660 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: check your phone. That type of behavior. Is that controlling 661 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,359 Speaker 1: behavior you talked about, And what as I understand that 662 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: you're trying to do and what he's been done. With 663 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 1: legislation being implemented, that that can be identified as an 664 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 1: offense in meeting those parameters and action can be taken. 665 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,760 Speaker 1: Is that a fair breakdown of the coercive control situation 666 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 1: and the benefits of having legislation. 667 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 2: Yes, it's basically all the non physical stuff that before 668 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,439 Speaker 2: we never paid attention to. And I call it death 669 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 2: by a thousand cuts. That you have all these psychological 670 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 2: and emotional and other elements that are being done to 671 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,640 Speaker 2: a victim. But it's only when it turns physical do 672 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,279 Speaker 2: police and others say, oh, that's the crime. But they 673 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 2: miss the twenty two years of that control related behavior. 674 00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 2: And what's more insidious about coercid control is that it's 675 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 2: about entrapment, and the victim becomes entrapped and it happens 676 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 2: to children too, this entrapment, and it's about utter domination. 677 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 2: And that's the best way to describe course of control. 678 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 2: It is about an utter domination of another person. So 679 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 2: oftentimes it's invisible. It's like a spider's web that you 680 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 2: see parts of it glint in the sun. But you've 681 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 2: got to ask more questions about what's going on and 682 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 2: just a nod. Back to the Menenda's case, both of 683 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 2: the boys, Eric and Laile were coercively controlled by their parents, 684 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:29,320 Speaker 2: and more sinister was Jose Menendez's control and sexual abuse 685 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 2: of them. That was coercive. And with children, they look 686 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,279 Speaker 2: for the love and the validation of that parent, so 687 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 2: they put themselves in harm's way to get the approval 688 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,279 Speaker 2: and validation and love of the parents. So it is 689 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:47,320 Speaker 2: so damaging to your brain as a child, but also 690 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 2: to your psychosocial development. It interrupts your whole development, which 691 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,040 Speaker 2: is why Lyle, at the age of twenty one, had 692 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 2: an emotional maturity or immaturity age of fourteen and Eric 693 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,760 Speaker 2: or he had just turned eighteen when he was assessed. 694 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,640 Speaker 2: He was actually the age emotionally of an eight year old. 695 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 2: It's like you get frozen. So it's so damaging to. 696 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:12,280 Speaker 1: Children stunted at that age the emotional. 697 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and for women it's so damaging. I mean, 698 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 2: that's why you get you know, with suppressing down you know, 699 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,279 Speaker 2: fear and what you want in life and having to 700 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,920 Speaker 2: put yourself last all the time. You know, it's why 701 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 2: a lot of women have autoimmune disorders and things. That 702 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:29,880 Speaker 2: the body will keep the score. That even though he 703 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:33,400 Speaker 2: may not physically have hit her, often he doesn't have to. 704 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 2: He keeps her in fear, always second guessing, always, you know, 705 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:41,560 Speaker 2: walking on eggshells, and that is very damaging to your 706 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:47,239 Speaker 2: own health state as well in terms of your psychology 707 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,080 Speaker 2: and your emotions. And the body will keep the score. 708 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:54,120 Speaker 2: Basil Vanderkolt's work that all of that stuff will go somewhere, 709 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 2: and that's where we see self harm and suicides. We 710 00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 2: see more women disproportionately and their their own lives because 711 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 2: of a course of controller. So course of control does 712 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:09,480 Speaker 2: correlate to femicide and for millicide, children being killed, homicide, 713 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 2: and to suicide, and it significantly correlates. So it really 714 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 2: is this big red flag that when you see it 715 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 2: with the mindset, the psychopathology of the offender, I must 716 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 2: win it all costs. It ends my way. And when 717 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,359 Speaker 2: I say it ends, these sorts of things when they 718 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,480 Speaker 2: want revenge, they will scorch the earth and they are 719 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,560 Speaker 2: incredibly dangerous and there's a proportion, well, there's a number 720 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 2: of them who are psychopaths, and that's why we have 721 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 2: to take it seriously because they're master manipulators, and often 722 00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:44,319 Speaker 2: police and others have no idea who's in front of 723 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,120 Speaker 2: them when they're interviewing them, and they don't understand their 724 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:48,360 Speaker 2: master manipulators. 725 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 1: And it all comes down what you're saying there, and 726 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 1: I do understand exactly what you're saying, but it comes 727 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 1: down to education, education of police officers so they understand 728 00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:03,719 Speaker 1: what they're actually dealing with because I know quite often 729 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 1: you hear from a victim's point of view, I'm too 730 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,359 Speaker 1: scared to leave him because if I leave him, and 731 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,399 Speaker 1: I think the facts would play out, those statistics would 732 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 1: play out. That is a danger period where someone has 733 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:19,799 Speaker 1: left a coercive relationship. So we get the legislation in 734 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 1: that's one thing, but I also know as a former 735 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,279 Speaker 1: police officer, legislation is one thing, but we've got to 736 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 1: know how to use the legislation and the courts have 737 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 1: got to accept the legislation. Do you think that is 738 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,239 Speaker 1: part of the introduction of the legislation that will play 739 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 1: out that police will be educated and see it as 740 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,319 Speaker 1: a tool, a worthwhile tool that they can use and 741 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,800 Speaker 1: the courts will back up the police. 742 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,279 Speaker 2: Expert led training before any new law comes in is 743 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,720 Speaker 2: an absolute must and New South Wales have done that training. 744 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,440 Speaker 2: Scotland they did the training before the law came in 745 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,759 Speaker 2: England and Wales we put it through Parliament and we 746 00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,840 Speaker 2: were voted down and we didn't have that mandatory training 747 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 2: and we've been trying to play catch up ever since. 748 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,200 Speaker 2: So yes, you're absolutely right, and you know it has 749 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 2: to be expert led training of understanding how the law 750 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,839 Speaker 2: makes contact in the real world, because often I hear 751 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,600 Speaker 2: things like, oh, this law is so hard to prove, 752 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,200 Speaker 2: where actually the practical points are very clear. If an 753 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:20,160 Speaker 2: officer and court staff are trained, it's actually really clear 754 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,800 Speaker 2: and obvious. And as I always say, once you're trained 755 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:27,360 Speaker 2: to see it, you can't unsee it. And that training 756 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,239 Speaker 2: is just so important. It's a lifeline. And that's where 757 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:33,800 Speaker 2: I think often we just don't invest in quality training, 758 00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:36,400 Speaker 2: and I've delivered training to people all over the world. 759 00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,239 Speaker 2: I've got my next Course of Control master class on 760 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:43,200 Speaker 2: December fourth and fifth coming up, where we go through 761 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,239 Speaker 2: not just the behaviors and the victimology, but the psychology 762 00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,160 Speaker 2: of the offenders and the legislation in different parts of 763 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,920 Speaker 2: the world, because it has to make contact with the 764 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:56,880 Speaker 2: real world and not just be an academic exercise. I, Laura, 765 00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,680 Speaker 2: are just all the things that you've got your head 766 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:01,439 Speaker 2: across and the things that you're doing. 767 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:03,759 Speaker 1: I honestly don't know where you get the time to 768 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 1: do all this, but clearly you have a passion for it. 769 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:11,359 Speaker 1: But fighting town hall as I call it, when you're 770 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,680 Speaker 1: trying to argue change legislation. But we've always done it 771 00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:17,080 Speaker 1: this way. Yeah, stupid, but it's not working. We're trying 772 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:19,279 Speaker 1: to change things. I know what you're up against, so 773 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:23,399 Speaker 1: full credit to you. But there's other stuff, and I've 774 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:25,360 Speaker 1: got so many things I want to speak to you about. 775 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:29,080 Speaker 1: But Dirty John, you have some knowledge about that. People 776 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,759 Speaker 1: might know about that case through a game, through a 777 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 1: TV series, but that's often how people are educated. Do 778 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:40,840 Speaker 1: you want to just talk us through that particular case, incident, scenario, 779 00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:44,520 Speaker 1: whatever you want to describe it as, what your knowledge 780 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:45,600 Speaker 1: and involvement is in that. 781 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,879 Speaker 2: Yes, I'm in Real Crime profile my other podcast. We 782 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,920 Speaker 2: were asked before the podcast Dirty John dropped, which was 783 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,759 Speaker 2: an LA Times and Wondery podcast and Christopher Goffard was 784 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,719 Speaker 2: the La Times journalist and we were asked to interview 785 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:03,600 Speaker 2: him before the podcast dropped, so we got all the 786 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,799 Speaker 2: transcripts and had a pre listen and I was just like, 787 00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:10,240 Speaker 2: oh my goodness, this case is about course of control 788 00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:13,560 Speaker 2: and stalking. So you know, when talking to Chris, I 789 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:15,480 Speaker 2: was doing the interview from London, it was like the 790 00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:17,959 Speaker 2: middle of the night, and you know, I was trying 791 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,359 Speaker 2: to get my brain engaged. But you know, I said 792 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:22,200 Speaker 2: to him, you know, this case is about coerce of 793 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,240 Speaker 2: control and he said, I've never heard of that term. 794 00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:28,680 Speaker 2: What is that? So I explained it to him, and 795 00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,080 Speaker 2: to Chris's credit, he said, if I had understood that before, 796 00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:35,960 Speaker 2: I would have told the story differently. And the case 797 00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:42,040 Speaker 2: really is about a very dangerous individual who would target 798 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:47,520 Speaker 2: lots of different women at any one time and basically 799 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:49,439 Speaker 2: try and get their money from them, but he would 800 00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:54,120 Speaker 2: also coercively control them and abuse them and harmed many 801 00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:56,880 Speaker 2: different women. But the story with that Chris was telling 802 00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:00,560 Speaker 2: really happened sort of towards the end of what Mehan 803 00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:04,120 Speaker 2: was doing and the last relationship that he had, and 804 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:08,280 Speaker 2: the story is kind of unbelievable in many senses, because 805 00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:12,480 Speaker 2: he did try and kill Deborah's daughter Terror, And I mean, 806 00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 2: here's the spoiler. If somebody hasn't listened to it, you know, 807 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:19,400 Speaker 2: what effectively happened was John couldn't get to Deborah, so 808 00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,719 Speaker 2: then he targeted her children, and he went for her daughters. 809 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,759 Speaker 2: And it was Jacqueline who ran the alarm to say, 810 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,520 Speaker 2: I think I just saw John outside my apartment. You know, 811 00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:31,799 Speaker 2: called her mum, called her sister, so they were all 812 00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,320 Speaker 2: on red alert. And this is after Deborah had reported 813 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,040 Speaker 2: him to police and had disappeared herself for six months 814 00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:39,080 Speaker 2: because she knew he was going to try and kill her. 815 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:44,920 Speaker 2: And then he tried to abduct and kill Terror, only 816 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,320 Speaker 2: she ended up grabbing the knife off of him and 817 00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,880 Speaker 2: killing him. And that's really why the case was of 818 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,880 Speaker 2: such interest. That Matt Murphy was the district attorney. He 819 00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,640 Speaker 2: decided that he wasn't going to prosecute Terror. This was 820 00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:03,080 Speaker 2: self defense. And so Chris Govard decided to tell this 821 00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:06,000 Speaker 2: story just months after that had happened, so the family 822 00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:10,560 Speaker 2: was still in trauma. Effectively, when I interviewed Chris and 823 00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:14,600 Speaker 2: said all of this unbeknownst to me Deborah was listening, 824 00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,480 Speaker 2: as was her best friend, and they contacted me and 825 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:21,279 Speaker 2: said that coercive control that you mentioned, You've given it 826 00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:24,640 Speaker 2: a name, and it's so amazing. It's like you know me, 827 00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:26,880 Speaker 2: but you've never met me. And I just want to 828 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,359 Speaker 2: say thank you. That's what Debra said, and we ended 829 00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:33,399 Speaker 2: up meeting and I ended up being her advocate. There 830 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:35,200 Speaker 2: was going to be the scripted show. There was going 831 00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:37,920 Speaker 2: to be a documentary. Deborah didn't want to do any 832 00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,160 Speaker 2: of that. She got very cold feet about it because 833 00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:42,720 Speaker 2: of the way the podcast landed, and she got blamed 834 00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,480 Speaker 2: for a lot of things because of the way the 835 00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:49,160 Speaker 2: podcast positioned her of being married four times. There was 836 00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:52,080 Speaker 2: a lot of judgment and the podcast didn't include all 837 00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:56,000 Speaker 2: the steps that she took to protect herself and her children, 838 00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,200 Speaker 2: and so there was a lot of criticism of Deborah 839 00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:02,120 Speaker 2: and I ended up being advocate. It was a scripted show. 840 00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:05,359 Speaker 2: In the end, she did sign the contract. It ended 841 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:09,000 Speaker 2: up going out on Bravo. Connie Britten played her and 842 00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:14,759 Speaker 2: Eric Banner played played John. And there was the documentary 843 00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,120 Speaker 2: which I was a consulting producer on, where all the 844 00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:20,600 Speaker 2: women that John had targeted and abused all the horror 845 00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:23,640 Speaker 2: story of the true story of what happened. We put 846 00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:26,799 Speaker 2: into a documentary called Dirty John The Dirty Truth. And 847 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,560 Speaker 2: then I worked with his first wife of ten years, Tanya, 848 00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:33,239 Speaker 2: and we did an audible investigation with Tanya at the 849 00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:36,960 Speaker 2: center of it called John Meehan's Reign of Terror. And 850 00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:40,040 Speaker 2: Tanya thought she had processed everything, but as I said 851 00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:41,960 Speaker 2: to her, you don't know the half of what John 852 00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:43,839 Speaker 2: meehan was up to. I mean, he was a very 853 00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:50,320 Speaker 2: dangerous serial stalker, course of controller and psychopath. And so yeah, 854 00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:52,520 Speaker 2: now when people say, oh, what's course of control? I 855 00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:55,400 Speaker 2: always say, watch Dirty John, or listen to the podcast 856 00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:58,840 Speaker 2: or my episodes with Tanya and Deborah, because the unrap 857 00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:00,800 Speaker 2: it's like a thread that you put on a jumper. 858 00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:03,800 Speaker 2: There's so many parts to it, you know, or a sweater, 859 00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:07,719 Speaker 2: there's so many parts to it that and he got 860 00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,160 Speaker 2: away with it for so long. Gary. You know, the 861 00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:14,120 Speaker 2: authorities when Deborah was reporting it, they kept saying to her, 862 00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:16,560 Speaker 2: even though he threatened to kill her, they said, this 863 00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:19,040 Speaker 2: is a civil matter, go to the civil courts. And 864 00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:21,520 Speaker 2: she got turned away from four different police stations where 865 00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:23,080 Speaker 2: they said nothing to do with us. 866 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:27,400 Speaker 1: Shows like Dirty John and other shows, whether they're scripted 867 00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:30,799 Speaker 1: series or documentaries. That's a way of educating people, isn't it. 868 00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:34,239 Speaker 1: Because what you've said there with coercive Control and Dirty John. 869 00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,080 Speaker 1: I speak to people about it too, and quite often 870 00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:40,319 Speaker 1: people don't understand it, but your reference to Dirty John 871 00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:43,279 Speaker 1: gives people a full understanding of what the nature of 872 00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:47,040 Speaker 1: the crime is and what exactly is occurring. So that's 873 00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:49,080 Speaker 1: another way of educating people, it is, and. 874 00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:51,480 Speaker 2: That's why Deborah just to say, for Debra, that's why 875 00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,800 Speaker 2: she wanted her story told to help people and raise awareness. 876 00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,080 Speaker 2: And that's been that's an important part to a lot 877 00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:00,160 Speaker 2: of survivors that what happened to them isn't just you know, 878 00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:02,840 Speaker 2: a horror story that it's actually put to use to 879 00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:07,239 Speaker 2: educate other people who may find themselves in that situation. 880 00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,480 Speaker 2: But I can also use it to educate legislators, you know, 881 00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:13,440 Speaker 2: and say we'll listen to this podcast or listen to 882 00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:17,080 Speaker 2: crime an unless my interview with Deborah and Tanya, and 883 00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:20,320 Speaker 2: then they get it the far broader and fuller picture 884 00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:24,720 Speaker 2: of what coercive control is and what serial perpetration is about. 885 00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:28,160 Speaker 1: And I think it also not only educates but helps 886 00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:31,919 Speaker 1: victims who are quite often left in isolation, appreciate that 887 00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,359 Speaker 1: this is happening to other people, not just myself, and 888 00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:36,799 Speaker 1: I think there's some comfort that's brought from that that 889 00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:40,560 Speaker 1: and they are victims, there's nothing to be ashamed of. 890 00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:43,560 Speaker 1: It's an offense as being committed against them, but I 891 00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,080 Speaker 1: think there's sometimes shame that they don't want to speak out. 892 00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:51,160 Speaker 1: They're embarrassed by their situation. So getting that discussion talking 893 00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:55,239 Speaker 1: about is a good thing. I just want to ask 894 00:49:55,280 --> 00:50:00,160 Speaker 1: you with stalking, if police aren't taking it seriously, what 895 00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:02,680 Speaker 1: advice would you give to a woman that's being stalked 896 00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:05,280 Speaker 1: and she's gone to the play station not getting the response, 897 00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:07,719 Speaker 1: what other things that can let person do? 898 00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:11,040 Speaker 2: It really depends in which country they live. If they're 899 00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:14,160 Speaker 2: in the UK, then I would recommend that they contact Paladin, 900 00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:18,440 Speaker 2: the National Stalking Advocacy Service. That they do have independent 901 00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:22,440 Speaker 2: stalking advocacy case workers there and there's a lot of 902 00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:26,200 Speaker 2: information on the website. So if you're anywhere in the 903 00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:28,879 Speaker 2: world being stalked, do you go on Paladin's website. It's 904 00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:33,000 Speaker 2: an incredible resource of information, and equally on my own website, 905 00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:36,400 Speaker 2: the Laura Richards dot Com, there's information on stalking specifically 906 00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:40,200 Speaker 2: and coercive control, and I would recommend that they tell 907 00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:44,120 Speaker 2: people what's happening for them, people at work, people who 908 00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:47,440 Speaker 2: are in their everyday orbit, friends, family, Let them know 909 00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:50,799 Speaker 2: that something's happening, because often with victims of stalking, your 910 00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:54,520 Speaker 2: world shrinks down and you don't tell people, and that 911 00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:58,480 Speaker 2: level of isolation compounds issues around your mental health. But 912 00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:02,720 Speaker 2: also it gives the stalker room to maneuver, and often 913 00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:06,520 Speaker 2: they've enabled them their way into their relationships. So let 914 00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:10,560 Speaker 2: other people know. Go on the DASH Risk Checklist website. 915 00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:13,640 Speaker 2: Answer the questions on the DASH and it doesn't matter 916 00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:15,400 Speaker 2: where you are in the world. If you filled that 917 00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:17,960 Speaker 2: out and there's stalking, and let's say there could be 918 00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:21,319 Speaker 2: coerc of control as well, fill it out. Go in 919 00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:25,480 Speaker 2: see the police and say that you've listened to Laura 920 00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,719 Speaker 2: Richards and you've heard that these things are high risk 921 00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:32,239 Speaker 2: factors and that you're concerned for your safety and you 922 00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:35,640 Speaker 2: want them to help and be very be very matter 923 00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:38,560 Speaker 2: of fact about that. One of the things I've learned 924 00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:41,200 Speaker 2: from working with thousands of victims and setting up Paladin 925 00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:45,440 Speaker 2: is often they can equivocate and say things like it 926 00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:48,320 Speaker 2: might be something or it might be nothing. I mean, Gary, 927 00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:50,719 Speaker 2: you've worked in the police. The minute says someone says 928 00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:53,719 Speaker 2: something like that, it might be something that might be nothing, right, 929 00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:54,680 Speaker 2: it gets written off. 930 00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,560 Speaker 1: It might be and so exactly. 931 00:51:57,440 --> 00:51:58,840 Speaker 2: That's always a big problem. 932 00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:02,200 Speaker 1: I think that's that's great advice and I really take 933 00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:05,359 Speaker 1: on board telling people it's nothing to be ashamed of. 934 00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:07,839 Speaker 1: If you've been stalked, tell people and it makes it 935 00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:10,720 Speaker 1: harder for them. But that's fantastic advice. 936 00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,400 Speaker 2: The other thing I would just quickly say is collect evidence. 937 00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:15,799 Speaker 2: You know, if it's on your phone or you've got 938 00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:18,560 Speaker 2: pictures or emails or texts, make sure you collect all 939 00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:20,960 Speaker 2: of that and keep a diary of what happened, where 940 00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:23,560 Speaker 2: it happened, and how it made you feel. You have 941 00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:25,880 Speaker 2: to document all of these things. And then you know, 942 00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:29,040 Speaker 2: as I said, reach out to experts on stalking. And 943 00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:33,799 Speaker 2: there are experts in Australia, there's experts in America, in Canada, 944 00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:37,239 Speaker 2: in the UK. So do reach out to other specialist 945 00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:38,560 Speaker 2: services who can help you. 946 00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:42,120 Speaker 1: One hundred percent agree. The other advice I give, or 947 00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:46,480 Speaker 1: in continuation of that, is make contemporaneous notes, document it, 948 00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:49,360 Speaker 1: and walk into the police station with that documented and 949 00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:52,040 Speaker 1: hand the documents over to the police, and also get 950 00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:54,319 Speaker 1: the police officer's name that you're handing it over to, 951 00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:57,440 Speaker 1: and little little things like that can make a difference 952 00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:01,040 Speaker 1: on what sort of action gets taken. I left law 953 00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:04,560 Speaker 1: enforcement and came into the world of media and doing 954 00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:08,160 Speaker 1: things like the podcast series. I was really concerned. I 955 00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:11,160 Speaker 1: didn't want to glorify crime like that was just the 956 00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:15,319 Speaker 1: copying me thought, Okay, how do I navigate my way 957 00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:20,040 Speaker 1: through here without glorifying crime or sensationalizing crime? What I 958 00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,359 Speaker 1: found with podcasting world and I just want to get 959 00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:24,840 Speaker 1: your thoughts on it. It is a good way to 960 00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:27,560 Speaker 1: get messaging across. You can make a difference, and it 961 00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:30,120 Speaker 1: might be as simple as having a victim on a 962 00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:32,960 Speaker 1: podcast to explain what they went through and people all 963 00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:36,439 Speaker 1: of a sudden get it. How have you found you've 964 00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:39,240 Speaker 1: worked in law enforcement, now you're working in the media. 965 00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:41,960 Speaker 1: How have you found the transition and have you Do 966 00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:44,439 Speaker 1: you feel comfortable in the role that you're doing within 967 00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:45,760 Speaker 1: this space in the media. 968 00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:49,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's an interesting question because it's been an evolving 969 00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:54,000 Speaker 2: space and I find that I feel very uncomfortable when 970 00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:58,799 Speaker 2: people sensationalize the killers, and you know, hold them up, 971 00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:01,439 Speaker 2: give them monikers and talk about them as if they's 972 00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:04,520 Speaker 2: something to be celebrated. And you know, to be frank, 973 00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:07,400 Speaker 2: there's no serial killer who's called the small dick killer. 974 00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:12,239 Speaker 2: They are always given these big names, right's yeah. And 975 00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:14,680 Speaker 2: for me having worked those cases, a lot of those 976 00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:17,640 Speaker 2: names like the Yorkshire are word, the Yorkshire Ripper, I'll 977 00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:20,960 Speaker 2: say at once that was the moniker that was given 978 00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:23,680 Speaker 2: to him, and it made law enforcement police officers think 979 00:54:23,719 --> 00:54:26,840 Speaker 2: he was this big, scary character when actually he was 980 00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:31,239 Speaker 2: this small, weedy, you know, high pitched man who every 981 00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:33,680 Speaker 2: time he was in front of them, they couldn't make 982 00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:36,760 Speaker 2: that leap. And so the monikers are really problematic because 983 00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:39,479 Speaker 2: they make the offender feel special, and that still goes 984 00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:41,719 Speaker 2: on in this space of oh, serial killers, like it's 985 00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:44,279 Speaker 2: a real fun thing. But you and I both know 986 00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:48,440 Speaker 2: the devastation and the trauma that's left behind when someone's killed. 987 00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:51,960 Speaker 2: So that makes me feel very uncomfortable. And I think 988 00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:54,640 Speaker 2: there is a balance to be met that you can 989 00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:59,040 Speaker 2: do ethical true crime, you know, reporting or talking about 990 00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:02,200 Speaker 2: a case, allowing victims and survivors to have a platform 991 00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:06,040 Speaker 2: to tell their stories, which is really important for them. 992 00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:08,879 Speaker 2: And you know, making sure that you're telling the right 993 00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:11,440 Speaker 2: facts about a case, because I think there's a lot 994 00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:14,319 Speaker 2: of podcasters who rely on wiki and you and I 995 00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:16,600 Speaker 2: both know that what goes on with the case and 996 00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:18,799 Speaker 2: what's put out, you know, either on wiki or in 997 00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:22,080 Speaker 2: the media, it can give a very distorted view of 998 00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:24,920 Speaker 2: what really went on. And I think those false narratives 999 00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:28,960 Speaker 2: can be very problematic. And you know, podcasters who don't 1000 00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:32,560 Speaker 2: even get the victims name right. You know, all of 1001 00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:34,839 Speaker 2: those things. It all comes down to, you know, doing 1002 00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:38,000 Speaker 2: your research and doing things in a responsible way rather than, oh, 1003 00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:40,520 Speaker 2: isn't it exciting, we're talking about true crime and we 1004 00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:43,399 Speaker 2: want to make some money and make this a comedy show, 1005 00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:45,840 Speaker 2: and isn't it funny this woman was killed? You know. 1006 00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:48,920 Speaker 2: That kind of stuff I really find very difficult. 1007 00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:52,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's good because it's interesting speaking to someone 1008 00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:55,480 Speaker 1: that's gone a similar path. And the things that you 1009 00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:58,680 Speaker 1: hit on Mare is that if you're being involved in that, 1010 00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:03,640 Speaker 1: you understand the devastation that crime has. I feel comfortable 1011 00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:05,880 Speaker 1: in what I do on the podcast and what I 1012 00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:09,839 Speaker 1: do in other media forums. I'm not glorifying crime. I'm 1013 00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:14,160 Speaker 1: helping people understand crime and also making people aware of 1014 00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:18,240 Speaker 1: the stuff that you're doing, like stalking. Hello, we're shouting 1015 00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:21,279 Speaker 1: out if someone's stalking you, there's a concern, and we 1016 00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:23,560 Speaker 1: shout that out to the police. If someone turns up 1017 00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:25,879 Speaker 1: and they've been stalked, have a look at it, because 1018 00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:29,239 Speaker 1: it's serious coercive control. I know the work that you've 1019 00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:32,560 Speaker 1: done on that and how far that's spread. Such an 1020 00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:36,279 Speaker 1: important thing. So there's only so much you can do 1021 00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:39,360 Speaker 1: in law enforcement to make a difference. But media provides 1022 00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:43,680 Speaker 1: a platform, and podcasting I think provides a great platform 1023 00:56:43,719 --> 00:56:45,960 Speaker 1: to get that messaging out. As long as it's the 1024 00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:47,200 Speaker 1: right messaging. 1025 00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:49,400 Speaker 2: I agree. It can be very empowering. And you know, 1026 00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:52,759 Speaker 2: I've heard from thousands and thousands of people. Just today, 1027 00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:55,879 Speaker 2: I've got another four messages saying that what I've said 1028 00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:58,239 Speaker 2: on a podcast has really help them, and that for 1029 00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:00,680 Speaker 2: me makes me walk ten foot two. You know, there's 1030 00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:04,200 Speaker 2: no metric to show that success, but for me, that 1031 00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:08,120 Speaker 2: is success helping one person. I mean today four people 1032 00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:11,799 Speaker 2: message me to say that. Because when you're being victimized, 1033 00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:15,920 Speaker 2: often you don't realize the seriousness of what's going on. 1034 00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:18,800 Speaker 2: And often if someone was telling you it, you might 1035 00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:20,960 Speaker 2: not believe it. So when you realize it in your 1036 00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:23,720 Speaker 2: own time. It's a very different experience, you know. And 1037 00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:25,520 Speaker 2: as I say to people, if they're worried about a 1038 00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:29,360 Speaker 2: relative or someone that they love but they're resistant to 1039 00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:32,000 Speaker 2: the conversation, We'll just point them in the direction of 1040 00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:35,000 Speaker 2: Dirty John or my podcasts on Crime Analyst. It can 1041 00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:39,040 Speaker 2: be so powerful as that kind of tool, and that's 1042 00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:41,160 Speaker 2: why I do what I do. And yeah, time is 1043 00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:43,040 Speaker 2: always a challenge for me because I'm a mum of 1044 00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:47,080 Speaker 2: a little toddler. But I really believe in educating people 1045 00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:49,800 Speaker 2: and mainstreaming what I'm doing and not just sitting with 1046 00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:53,680 Speaker 2: the knowledge myself, you know, or writing it into an 1047 00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:56,280 Speaker 2: academic paper that no one reads. I really want to 1048 00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:59,680 Speaker 2: mainstream and get the risks out there because it will 1049 00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:03,240 Speaker 2: say lives and it has saved lives and changed lives. 1050 00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:07,120 Speaker 1: If people want to listen to your podcasts, where can 1051 00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:08,360 Speaker 1: they get your podcasts? 1052 00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:12,000 Speaker 2: Yep, Crime Analysts and Real Crime Profile are on every platform, 1053 00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:15,480 Speaker 2: so whether it's Spotify, Apple. I've also got a YouTube 1054 00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:19,320 Speaker 2: channel for Crime Analyst, and I also have a Patreon 1055 00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:22,919 Speaker 2: where we have a lot more discussions, extra episodes and 1056 00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:25,480 Speaker 2: it's called the Crime Analyst Squad where I put a 1057 00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:29,480 Speaker 2: lot more information, you know, and content on there, and 1058 00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:32,480 Speaker 2: we have happy hours where people can ask me questions, 1059 00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:35,080 Speaker 2: so you know, it's a way where I can engage 1060 00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:37,480 Speaker 2: with people at a far deeper level than you know, 1061 00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:41,480 Speaker 2: the seven platforms on social media where I get trolled 1062 00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:46,040 Speaker 2: horribly because I'm spotlighting you know, male violence to women, 1063 00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:47,560 Speaker 2: and there's a lot of people who don't like the 1064 00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:51,680 Speaker 2: fact that I'm talking about saving women's lives. But that's 1065 00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:54,040 Speaker 2: not to say I don't work with men either, because 1066 00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:56,600 Speaker 2: I do. It's just that when we look at who's 1067 00:58:56,600 --> 00:58:59,400 Speaker 2: doing what to whom, the majority of the cases that 1068 00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:02,160 Speaker 2: can end up up where you know, people are murdered 1069 00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:04,520 Speaker 2: and escalating, it does tend to be men who are 1070 00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:09,480 Speaker 2: killing women. It's a disproportionate level. So that's important to 1071 00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:13,760 Speaker 2: say because too often women are too polite about what's 1072 00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:18,040 Speaker 2: happening to them, or they feel shame or humiliation or judgment. 1073 00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:20,920 Speaker 2: So the bit about going into the police, taking someone 1074 00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:23,720 Speaker 2: with you, you know, an advocate, and filling out the 1075 00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:27,440 Speaker 2: risk assessment is really important. But yeah, you can find 1076 00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:30,120 Speaker 2: me on all social media platforms, and do listen to 1077 00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:34,520 Speaker 2: the podcast because it's unraveling lots of different types of cases, 1078 00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:37,080 Speaker 2: and I hope that that is helpful to. 1079 00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:41,360 Speaker 1: People most definitely. I know there'll be a comment going, 1080 00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:43,920 Speaker 1: but what about the blokes that are stalked? What about 1081 00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:49,920 Speaker 1: the men that the victims of coercive control. Yes they're victims, 1082 00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:53,160 Speaker 1: and yes they do need attension, But the sheer volume 1083 00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:56,960 Speaker 1: of women the victims in these situations far outweigh the men. 1084 00:59:57,080 --> 00:59:59,920 Speaker 1: Would that be a fair assessment, So we're not ignoring 1085 01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:03,200 Speaker 1: the men, it's just the nature of the crime is 1086 01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:06,200 Speaker 1: more orientated towards women being victims. 1087 01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:09,360 Speaker 2: Well, a female firefighter put it this way. She said, 1088 01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:12,000 Speaker 2: when she gets a call out to a house that's 1089 01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:14,360 Speaker 2: burning and it's in a terrace, she goes to the 1090 01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:16,400 Speaker 2: house that is burning in the middle of the terrace. 1091 01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:19,320 Speaker 2: She doesn't go to houses that are either side of it. 1092 01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:22,600 Speaker 2: And that's what we have to understand that when we 1093 01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:24,440 Speaker 2: look at the stats, we look at the figures, we 1094 01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:28,439 Speaker 2: look at the disproportionate nature of women being killed by men, 1095 01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:31,360 Speaker 2: and that's why we have to have that conversation about 1096 01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:34,160 Speaker 2: what's going on for men. And that's not to the 1097 01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:38,480 Speaker 2: detriment of excluding boys and men, but we all have 1098 01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:42,320 Speaker 2: to be part of the solution, and unfortunately, you know, 1099 01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:45,920 Speaker 2: we do see a new Scotland yard. I never started 1100 01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:48,760 Speaker 2: my career saying I'm going to work on male violence 1101 01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:51,480 Speaker 2: to women. It's just what was given to me in 1102 01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:54,960 Speaker 2: terms of the cases that kept happening. You think about 1103 01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:57,920 Speaker 2: most serial killers, well, who are they targeting. They're targeting 1104 01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:01,640 Speaker 2: women and children. It would make no sense at all 1105 01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:04,880 Speaker 2: to disregard what our figures and our statistics and our 1106 01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:08,160 Speaker 2: cases show us. And in fact the Home Office in 1107 01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:10,560 Speaker 2: England and well show that ninety three percent of the 1108 01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:14,760 Speaker 2: perpetrators have coerci control domestic mind its are men and 1109 01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:19,360 Speaker 2: why would you disregard that information? It makes no sense. 1110 01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:24,160 Speaker 1: Well, look from what I've saying, I've learned about your work, 1111 01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:27,040 Speaker 1: and we've only touched on some of the work that 1112 01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:29,080 Speaker 1: you've done. We might have to get you back on 1113 01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:32,480 Speaker 1: it on again. But the work that you're doing, you 1114 01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:35,000 Speaker 1: are actually making a difference. So full credit to you, 1115 01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:38,840 Speaker 1: and i'd like to say thank you, but thank you 1116 01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:41,480 Speaker 1: for coming not just on the podcast, but you're making 1117 01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:44,160 Speaker 1: the world a safer place. Keep up the good work. 1118 01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:46,400 Speaker 2: Thank you. Yeah, I mean I think that legacy is 1119 01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:49,240 Speaker 2: very important. I want a better place for my son, 1120 01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:53,040 Speaker 2: because right now I fear for the next generation with 1121 01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:55,000 Speaker 2: the likes of Andrew Tait and just some of the 1122 01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:57,640 Speaker 2: things that have been going on. And I take that 1123 01:01:57,680 --> 01:02:01,280 Speaker 2: responsibility very seriously and I've always followed the work rather 1124 01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:05,120 Speaker 2: than a promotion or a career, So I play my 1125 01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:07,760 Speaker 2: part in the way that I can. And I really 1126 01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:10,320 Speaker 2: thank you for the work that you've done, and also 1127 01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:14,640 Speaker 2: for talking with me and being somebody of shining a 1128 01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:16,880 Speaker 2: light and what needs to change. And we need more 1129 01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:19,520 Speaker 2: men like you Gary doing that and talking in this 1130 01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:22,920 Speaker 2: space and helping people understand what needs to change and 1131 01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:24,040 Speaker 2: what needs to be done. 1132 01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:28,000 Speaker 1: So thank you, cheers. It's a nice, nice way to end. 1133 01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:35,320 Speaker 1: Thanks very much. What an impressive person, Laura Richards is. 1134 01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:38,560 Speaker 1: I found that chat fascinating and I hope it informs 1135 01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:43,920 Speaker 1: people about the dangers of stalking and coercive control and 1136 01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:46,400 Speaker 1: all the other indicators that we've got to look out 1137 01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:50,160 Speaker 1: for that can prevent major crimes from happening. But the 1138 01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:52,720 Speaker 1: work that she does, not just here in Australia but 1139 01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:54,240 Speaker 1: across the globe is worth what