1 00:00:05,881 --> 00:00:14,801 Speaker 1: Appoche production. Is it true that Sonny changed everything to 2 00:00:15,121 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: like the structure of the Hell's Angels. 3 00:00:16,801 --> 00:00:18,441 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is absolutely true. 4 00:00:18,481 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 3: He helped structure, He helped it grow. He became the 5 00:00:25,201 --> 00:00:28,961 Speaker 3: face of the Hell's Angels and the voice. 6 00:00:29,041 --> 00:00:30,601 Speaker 2: Like I stated earlier. 7 00:00:30,401 --> 00:00:35,361 Speaker 3: He was responsible for the progress that the Hell's Angel 8 00:00:35,721 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 3: Hell's Angels made. 9 00:00:37,241 --> 00:00:39,081 Speaker 2: And you know, I don't know if you know this, but. 10 00:00:39,161 --> 00:00:44,761 Speaker 3: The first Hell's Angel charter outside the United States, and 11 00:00:44,801 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 3: now the Australian Brothers probably don't want to hear me 12 00:00:47,001 --> 00:00:50,801 Speaker 3: say this, but they were from New Zealand. Yeah, there 13 00:00:50,881 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 3: was a bootleg charter in New Zealand and they were 14 00:00:55,241 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 3: around I think they started in the. 15 00:00:57,601 --> 00:01:00,081 Speaker 2: Sixty five or sixty four sixty six. 16 00:01:00,801 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 3: So it was the Hell's Angels in San Bernardino, Sam Francis, Oakland, 17 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:10,721 Speaker 3: and then there was Richmond in San Jose and Los Angeles. 18 00:01:10,761 --> 00:01:14,081 Speaker 3: But the guys in New Zealand started a charter and 19 00:01:14,121 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 3: then you know, they became Initially they were like a 20 00:01:17,441 --> 00:01:22,241 Speaker 3: bootleg outlaw charter and eventually they became an official Hell's 21 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:27,041 Speaker 3: Angel charter. But they were the first charter outside the 22 00:01:27,161 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 3: United States. They were New Zealand Hell's Angels. 23 00:01:31,041 --> 00:01:33,801 Speaker 1: So and Sonny grew to Is it true that Sonny 24 00:01:33,881 --> 00:01:34,081 Speaker 1: was there? 25 00:01:34,521 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 2: Was it? 26 00:01:34,881 --> 00:01:37,761 Speaker 1: Is it the national National Present for the Hell's Angels. 27 00:01:37,881 --> 00:01:42,121 Speaker 2: Well, you know, we really never had a structure like that, 28 00:01:42,761 --> 00:01:49,001 Speaker 2: but Sonny was a leader, There's no doubt about it. 29 00:01:49,441 --> 00:01:53,201 Speaker 3: He didn't hold We didn't. We didn't do it because 30 00:01:53,241 --> 00:01:55,761 Speaker 3: we didn't want to put our members in jeopardy. Like 31 00:01:55,881 --> 00:01:57,681 Speaker 3: you know, you I don't know how the laws are 32 00:01:57,961 --> 00:02:01,201 Speaker 3: in Australia, but like here in America, you've got somebody 33 00:02:02,241 --> 00:02:05,361 Speaker 3: at the head of an organization and the government prove 34 00:02:05,441 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 3: that's an illegal organization or an organization that is established 35 00:02:11,201 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 3: to commit. 36 00:02:11,841 --> 00:02:16,081 Speaker 2: L legal acts, they get you with a law here. 37 00:02:16,281 --> 00:02:19,801 Speaker 3: Are you familiar with the rical law now RICO. It 38 00:02:19,841 --> 00:02:26,521 Speaker 3: stands for racketeering influenced corrupt Organizations. And they came at 39 00:02:26,601 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 3: us with that rical law in the late seventies. They 40 00:02:30,161 --> 00:02:34,441 Speaker 3: indicted about thirty three members, Sonny being one of them, 41 00:02:34,881 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 3: and the government couldn't prove it because we didn't have 42 00:02:38,081 --> 00:02:42,161 Speaker 3: an international leader. So he kind of you know, got 43 00:02:42,161 --> 00:02:44,201 Speaker 3: out of that thing. So we didn't have our club 44 00:02:44,281 --> 00:02:47,481 Speaker 3: structure that way. You know, I've said for years, like 45 00:02:47,921 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 3: the American government, the FBI and whatnot. They still claim 46 00:02:52,041 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 3: the Hell's Angels are an ill legal entity. And you know, 47 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:01,121 Speaker 3: my position has always been the Hell's Angels is not 48 00:03:01,321 --> 00:03:02,601 Speaker 3: a criminal organization. 49 00:03:04,161 --> 00:03:07,601 Speaker 2: But the Hell's Angel do have criminals as members. 50 00:03:08,281 --> 00:03:10,601 Speaker 3: But you know, so do the United States Senate, So 51 00:03:10,721 --> 00:03:18,041 Speaker 3: does the House of of you know, representatives, you know, doctors, 52 00:03:18,081 --> 00:03:19,401 Speaker 3: people in the medical field. 53 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,081 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, you've got a reputation yourself. 54 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,081 Speaker 3: So you know, just because you're a bouncer doesn't mean 55 00:03:26,081 --> 00:03:30,001 Speaker 3: you you're involved in criminal activity. You know, somebody may 56 00:03:30,001 --> 00:03:33,601 Speaker 3: be a bouncer and do that, but that doesn't mean 57 00:03:33,641 --> 00:03:37,401 Speaker 3: the next guy standing next to him is involved in 58 00:03:37,481 --> 00:03:39,161 Speaker 3: criminal acts unless they. 59 00:03:39,121 --> 00:03:39,641 Speaker 2: Can prove it. 60 00:03:41,001 --> 00:03:44,401 Speaker 3: But Sonny, you know, Sonny, they they did tag Sonny 61 00:03:44,441 --> 00:03:47,521 Speaker 3: as an international leader. You know, they tagged me as 62 00:03:47,761 --> 00:03:52,481 Speaker 3: second in command. They tagged another guy, Irish is second 63 00:03:52,561 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 3: in command. 64 00:03:53,321 --> 00:03:54,641 Speaker 2: Uh, you know, Irish and. 65 00:03:54,561 --> 00:03:59,881 Speaker 3: I kind of stepped forward when you know, Sonny got cancer, 66 00:03:59,961 --> 00:04:03,841 Speaker 3: had his voice box cut out, and he took several 67 00:04:03,961 --> 00:04:08,401 Speaker 3: years off kind of convalesce and recovered and Irish and 68 00:04:08,441 --> 00:04:12,561 Speaker 3: Irish was a Hell's Angel from Los Angeles as well. 69 00:04:12,761 --> 00:04:17,921 Speaker 3: He transferred to Oakland became an Oakland Hell's Angel, very 70 00:04:17,921 --> 00:04:22,481 Speaker 3: powerful Hell's Angel and then when Sonny got sick, Irish 71 00:04:22,521 --> 00:04:26,681 Speaker 3: and I were kind of splitting the responsibilities. You know, 72 00:04:26,761 --> 00:04:30,001 Speaker 3: Sonny was dictating things to us. But you know, it's interesting. 73 00:04:30,161 --> 00:04:31,881 Speaker 3: I mentioned Russell Baya earlier. 74 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 2: The reason I went. 75 00:04:34,201 --> 00:04:38,121 Speaker 3: To Oakland was because I Russell wanted me to let 76 00:04:38,201 --> 00:04:41,281 Speaker 3: Irish transfer to Oakland, and I didn't want him to 77 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 3: transfer because we're in the middle of a war with 78 00:04:43,241 --> 00:04:48,561 Speaker 3: the Mongols. And you know, ultimately Irish got his transferred. 79 00:04:48,601 --> 00:04:51,121 Speaker 3: Oakland always got what they wanted, sooner or later. You know, 80 00:04:51,201 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 3: they were very powerful organization, so you know, they got 81 00:04:55,121 --> 00:04:57,641 Speaker 3: Irish to transfer up there. You know, Irish and I 82 00:04:57,641 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 3: were very good friends. He was a good leader. He 83 00:05:01,001 --> 00:05:04,681 Speaker 3: was murdered in nineteen eighty nine. I think it was 84 00:05:05,081 --> 00:05:08,201 Speaker 3: Team ninety. He was killed in a bar fight. He 85 00:05:08,241 --> 00:05:09,160 Speaker 3: was stabbed and shot. 86 00:05:10,121 --> 00:05:14,241 Speaker 1: So you know by rivals or they don't know. 87 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,721 Speaker 3: Someone in the area and brotherhood. Yeah, that's going to 88 00:05:17,801 --> 00:05:20,001 Speaker 3: be in my new book. I'm writing a book, Crossing 89 00:05:20,041 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 3: the Rubacon and I you know, I talk about a 90 00:05:21,961 --> 00:05:24,161 Speaker 3: lot of these Most of the guys are dead now, 91 00:05:24,481 --> 00:05:27,561 Speaker 3: so I'm writing stories about the people that are no 92 00:05:27,641 --> 00:05:33,001 Speaker 3: longer with us. So nobody gets any type of criminal 93 00:05:33,041 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 3: jeopardy or whatever. You know, I don't want anybody thinking 94 00:05:36,521 --> 00:05:38,321 Speaker 3: I'm ratting on anybody, because I'm not. 95 00:05:38,641 --> 00:05:41,921 Speaker 2: I'm telling stories. But you know, maybe because I'm the 96 00:05:42,001 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 2: last guy standing, you know, everybody else is going. You know, 97 00:05:46,801 --> 00:05:47,441 Speaker 2: the guys I. 98 00:05:47,401 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 3: Ran with, I could count them on one hand, the 99 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:51,281 Speaker 3: guys that are still alive, and most of them they 100 00:05:51,281 --> 00:05:52,201 Speaker 3: aren't active at all. 101 00:05:52,721 --> 00:05:56,241 Speaker 1: So I remember reading in an art school that you 102 00:05:56,281 --> 00:06:00,801 Speaker 1: were presidents of your chapter of the club, and you 103 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: went and the country went through seven presidential terms with 104 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:09,601 Speaker 1: different different presidents in America, from from Gerald Ford all 105 00:06:09,641 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: the way through to Obama. 106 00:06:12,641 --> 00:06:14,401 Speaker 2: I out lasted them all. 107 00:06:15,081 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 3: Uh so my political life was a lot longer than 108 00:06:20,481 --> 00:06:22,081 Speaker 3: a lot of these American presidents. 109 00:06:22,601 --> 00:06:26,121 Speaker 2: But uh, I you know, I had a long run. 110 00:06:26,601 --> 00:06:30,361 Speaker 3: I uh, you know, there's I exited the club. There's 111 00:06:30,361 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 3: a controversy about me leaving. I uh, I felt that 112 00:06:35,241 --> 00:06:39,801 Speaker 3: we had lost direction of what we originally intended the 113 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,601 Speaker 3: lifestyle to be. And after a couple of years of contemplation, 114 00:06:43,921 --> 00:06:47,161 Speaker 3: I went in to a meeting and you. 115 00:06:47,081 --> 00:06:49,841 Speaker 2: Know, I've announced my resignation. 116 00:06:49,921 --> 00:06:53,681 Speaker 3: I said I was going to retire, and uh, nobody 117 00:06:53,761 --> 00:06:55,561 Speaker 3: seemed to have a problem with it, and a couple 118 00:06:55,601 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 3: of weeks went by, and you know, Sonny and I 119 00:06:58,521 --> 00:07:04,281 Speaker 3: were always at odds. I had always felt that, uh uh, 120 00:07:05,721 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 3: I belonged to the club. Sonny always felt that the 121 00:07:08,401 --> 00:07:11,961 Speaker 3: club belonged to him. And that was the difference between 122 00:07:13,241 --> 00:07:15,721 Speaker 3: Sunny Barger and myself. We had two different types of 123 00:07:16,681 --> 00:07:21,841 Speaker 3: leadership styles. I'm not saying his was right. Yeah, they 124 00:07:21,841 --> 00:07:22,561 Speaker 3: were just different. 125 00:07:22,601 --> 00:07:22,721 Speaker 2: You know. 126 00:07:22,761 --> 00:07:25,081 Speaker 3: I had a different way of doing things, a different idea. 127 00:07:25,561 --> 00:07:27,361 Speaker 3: You know, you look to me like, you know, you 128 00:07:27,481 --> 00:07:30,521 Speaker 3: probably have particular things you like to do them your way, 129 00:07:31,121 --> 00:07:32,561 Speaker 3: and you know, you have to look like you have 130 00:07:32,561 --> 00:07:35,801 Speaker 3: a strong personality. And you know, most of the Hell's 131 00:07:35,841 --> 00:07:38,281 Speaker 3: Angel leaders and as well as the members, they all 132 00:07:38,321 --> 00:07:41,521 Speaker 3: have strong personalities. They have different thoughts on how things 133 00:07:41,561 --> 00:07:41,921 Speaker 3: should be. 134 00:07:42,081 --> 00:07:45,321 Speaker 1: But the thing is nowadays, when that happens, even in 135 00:07:45,361 --> 00:07:49,041 Speaker 1: a club or anyway, that's when it starts to be 136 00:07:49,241 --> 00:07:51,161 Speaker 1: it with people going behind your back, you know what 137 00:07:51,201 --> 00:07:54,001 Speaker 1: I mean, Because that's when the little fights start and 138 00:07:54,041 --> 00:07:56,801 Speaker 1: the club start to break up. And then you then 139 00:07:56,841 --> 00:07:59,921 Speaker 1: you go, you see that your own club is fighting 140 00:07:59,961 --> 00:08:03,321 Speaker 1: between yourselves. What's what's happening today? 141 00:08:03,961 --> 00:08:07,001 Speaker 3: Well, you know, That's what interesting you say that, because 142 00:08:07,961 --> 00:08:09,921 Speaker 3: when I left the club the day I went to 143 00:08:09,961 --> 00:08:12,601 Speaker 3: the meeting, I went to the clubhouse and announced I 144 00:08:12,681 --> 00:08:16,761 Speaker 3: was leaving, and I said to everybody, I go, look, 145 00:08:18,401 --> 00:08:21,801 Speaker 3: we've got wars on five fronts. We're fighting the Mongols, 146 00:08:21,961 --> 00:08:25,681 Speaker 3: the outlaws, the Pagans, the bandidos, and I go, now 147 00:08:25,721 --> 00:08:29,801 Speaker 3: you want to fight the Vogos, and we've got the cops. 148 00:08:30,121 --> 00:08:32,481 Speaker 3: I go, that's six fronts we're fighting. And I said, 149 00:08:32,521 --> 00:08:36,121 Speaker 3: we're running out of people to fight. And historically, if 150 00:08:36,121 --> 00:08:38,881 Speaker 3: you read your history, when you run out of enemies 151 00:08:38,921 --> 00:08:42,641 Speaker 3: to fight, you start fighting each other. And that's what 152 00:08:42,681 --> 00:08:48,361 Speaker 3: I thought was happening, and that's why I left. I 153 00:08:48,401 --> 00:08:54,801 Speaker 3: made some predictions, and within a few months after I left, 154 00:08:54,921 --> 00:08:59,441 Speaker 3: we were fighting the Vogos. Now that's a club I 155 00:08:59,521 --> 00:09:04,041 Speaker 3: have known for since the sixties, partied with them, have 156 00:09:04,161 --> 00:09:07,681 Speaker 3: they've hung out with us at our clubhouse, and now 157 00:09:07,681 --> 00:09:10,801 Speaker 3: we're in the shooting war with him, you know, just 158 00:09:10,841 --> 00:09:15,561 Speaker 3: because somebody had an attitude at somebody else and instead 159 00:09:15,601 --> 00:09:16,441 Speaker 3: of talking. 160 00:09:16,121 --> 00:09:19,801 Speaker 2: About it or or you know, or throwing from the shoulder, you. 161 00:09:19,761 --> 00:09:21,401 Speaker 3: Know, they go get a gun and they shoot the guy, 162 00:09:21,481 --> 00:09:24,041 Speaker 3: you know, when he's he's not even prepared for it, and. 163 00:09:25,601 --> 00:09:26,801 Speaker 2: You know, you're absolutely right. 164 00:09:27,801 --> 00:09:33,001 Speaker 3: These organizations fracture within, and you know, people get jealous, 165 00:09:33,641 --> 00:09:39,281 Speaker 3: people start focusing on the money, on the power, and 166 00:09:40,361 --> 00:09:42,001 Speaker 3: it creates problems.