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Speaker 1: Gooday, Welcome to the show. Thanks for downloading it. This

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Speaker 1: is better than yesterday. Useful tools and useful conversations to

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Speaker 1: help make you all day today better than yesterday, every

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Speaker 1: episode since twenty thirteen. My name's Oshi Gainsberg. I'm very

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Speaker 1: glad you're here. If you've never joined us before, welcome.

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Speaker 1: I am a podcaster, I'm an author, I'm a recovering

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Speaker 1: television host, and I'm.

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Speaker 2: Very glad you're a part of it.

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Speaker 1: I'm also somebody who produces and hosts a live storytelling

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Speaker 1: show once a month at the Factory Theater in Sydney.

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Speaker 1: As our next show, story Club returns for our twenties

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Speaker 1: twenty six season. If you are seek of sitting around

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Speaker 1: in your house putting your thumb on your phone screen

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Speaker 1: hoping to feel human connection, come along and do something

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Speaker 1: with actual other people. It's a beautiful night of storytelling.

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Speaker 1: There's only two rules for the show. One, the story

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Speaker 1: has to be true to the story has to be

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Speaker 1: less than fifteen hundred words, so.

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Speaker 2: You won't get bored.

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Speaker 1: For at first Joe twenty twenty six, we have some

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Speaker 1: fantastically talented, brilliantly funny storytellers returning to the lineup, Alex Lee,

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Speaker 1: She's an absolute legend, Zoe Nortont, Lodge, Duncan Fellows, Mike

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Speaker 1: Bauer's Talking Pictures, Mike Bowers is joining us.

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Speaker 2: And Ruby Tees, who is a brilliant.

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Speaker 3: Comedian and perlect performer and MC and host and.

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Speaker 2: Other such things.

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Speaker 1: Now it is February fifteenth, so it's a daylight for

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Speaker 1: any kind of date night that would be significant for

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Speaker 1: February fourteenth. But that's fine because the theme of this show.

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Speaker 2: Is so romantic, so romantic, it's gonna be great.

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Speaker 1: Tickets are in the show notes, which is where you

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Speaker 1: can also get tickets.

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Speaker 3: To go and see my guest today life. He is

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Speaker 3: touring Australia and it is going to be a big

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Speaker 3: night to be in a big room with a big,

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Speaker 3: big brain.

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Speaker 2: My guest today is doctor Stephen Pinker.

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Speaker 1: He is a cognitive psychologist originally from Canada. He now

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Speaker 1: is a professor of psychology at Harvard University. He's a

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Speaker 1: cognitive psychologist, a psycholinguist, a wildly popular author, and a

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Speaker 1: brilliant public intellectual.

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Speaker 3: He's one of the most influential.

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Speaker 2: Thinkers of our time.

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Speaker 1: His book Are Better Rangels About Nature is the kind

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Speaker 1: of thing you could stop a door and a gale with.

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Speaker 1: But it is an incredible argument that the world is

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Speaker 1: actually getting safer, more peaceful, more prosperous, and better despite

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Speaker 1: everything you see on TV. And we do get into

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Speaker 1: that in this show. And why that line, especially with

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Speaker 1: everything that's going on, like.

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Speaker 2: Fuck, let's just talk my phone today and everything's on fire.

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Speaker 1: Yes, because he explains it. It's wonderful how fear and

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Speaker 1: identity and tribal thinking all get in the way of

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Speaker 1: trying to process this data, this fact that the world

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Speaker 1: is actually safer and better for everybody, with the dissonance

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Speaker 1: of this very small amount of evidence, graphic and intense

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Speaker 1: amount of evidence.

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Speaker 3: But it's a great conversation. His new book is.

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Speaker 1: All about the idea of common knowledge. That when I

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Speaker 1: know that you know that you know that I know

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Speaker 1: that we know what we know. I can get in

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Speaker 1: my car and I can drive down the road knowing

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Speaker 1: that you know that we know to drive on the

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Speaker 1: left that way we won't hit each other. It's just

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Speaker 1: a thing that we all know, we know, we know.

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Speaker 1: And how this idea of common knowledge is invisible of

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Speaker 1: shared understanding, how it holds our society together but can

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Speaker 1: also tear our society apart. It's a really fascinating idea

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Speaker 1: and we really get into it, which I love. We

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Speaker 1: also speak about mental health, climate anxiety, and why when

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Speaker 1: your brain is genuinely unwell, why the world.

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Speaker 2: Can look more hopeless.

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Speaker 3: It isn't, but when your brain is unwell that there's

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Speaker 3: reasons why.

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Speaker 1: It looks like it does in the way everything seemed

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Speaker 1: to do, and we get into that and what you

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Speaker 1: can do about it in this great conversation.

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Speaker 2: Firstly, thank you so much for taking the time to.

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Speaker 4: Do this, and oh thank you for having me mate.

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Speaker 1: I have a lot to talk to you about and

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Speaker 1: a little amount of time, but I was trying to

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Speaker 1: fig like, what's the way how can I show you

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Speaker 1: that there's at least something that Stephen Picker and I

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Speaker 1: have in common. It's not a like, but it's a

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Speaker 1: Canon seven range finder with a zero point dream lens

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Speaker 1: on the phone.

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Speaker 4: Oh my goodness, that's that's an awesome lens that is

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Speaker 4: less than f one. That's as fast as the fastest

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Speaker 4: lens that there is.

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Speaker 2: It was the fastest at the time I was I was.

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Speaker 1: I bought it when I was still working in television

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Speaker 1: with pre GFC TV money.

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Speaker 4: I think it still is the fastest. I be tied

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Speaker 4: with it like a NOC Deluxe. It doesn't get any

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Speaker 4: faster than point nine five. That's that's that's a beauty.

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Speaker 1: The problem is that my hands, as I get older,

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Speaker 1: my hands get shakier, Stephen, So it doesn't matter.

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Speaker 4: Well, let me tell you it doesn't get any better.

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Speaker 1: I'm so immensely grateful for the work you've done, Stephen.

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Speaker 1: Just on a personal note, Better Angels of Our Hu

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Speaker 1: was such a glorious book, and it came along at

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Speaker 1: a time my life when I was kind of courted,

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Speaker 1: I guess by a lot of what you talk about

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Speaker 1: in common knowledge, you know, the ideas of not necessarily conspiracy.

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Speaker 2: But why should I believe it?

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Speaker 1: I'm just asking questions And I was slipping down that

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Speaker 1: when my dear friend Great Ubon Meherman, he's a great

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Speaker 1: science educator here in Australia, he turned me onto your work.

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Speaker 1: And it was later on when I read Enlightenment Now

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Speaker 1: that I was going through a terrible time of intense

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Speaker 1: climate anxiety, like to the point I was on anti

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Speaker 1: psychotics and stuff. I was very very ill and when

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Speaker 1: I read that book, the idea that there was someone

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Speaker 1: out there who was so smart and was proposing ideas

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Speaker 1: of a future that wasn't what my doom brain was

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Speaker 1: telling me gave me this little window of hope that

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Speaker 1: it might not be because it's very convincing when you're

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Speaker 1: that ill that you believe it to be true. But

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Speaker 1: when I read that book, it just gave me such

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Speaker 1: a window of light and I just got to thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for it.

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Speaker 4: Mate, Well, I appreciate that, And what you say is

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Speaker 4: absolutely true. Of course, when you are in the midst

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Speaker 4: of a depression, the world objectively looks hopeless. It's not

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Speaker 4: like and it's very hard to think, Oh, that's just

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Speaker 4: the way I'm seeing it right now in my current

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Speaker 4: mental steak. It's just the way the world actually appears

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Speaker 4: to you, and that is one of the things that

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Speaker 4: makes depression so hard to get out of. You can

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Speaker 4: be given all these but they just don't ring true

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Speaker 4: when you're.

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Speaker 1: In that steam, which kind of leads me to, you know,

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Speaker 1: the better angels of our nature with just such a

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Speaker 1: landmark book, But what's it like to be the guy

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Speaker 1: who shows up with a data set that says I know.

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Speaker 1: Actually the world is more peaceful than ever before, and

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Speaker 1: today more people escaped extreme poverty than.

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Speaker 2: Any other day in history, including yesterday.

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Speaker 1: Because look, I'm not like, I'm not you, but on

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Speaker 1: occasion I have encouraged with robust data sets both my

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Speaker 1: current wife and my ex wife.

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Speaker 2: Hey, just calm down, okay, and it's never gone well.

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Speaker 4: No reason, Well it can. I mean, as you say,

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Speaker 4: you know, when you noted that it changed your own

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Speaker 4: mental state. Some people are open, if their receptive. Sometimes

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Speaker 4: they just see the graphs or even if they're reminder

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Speaker 4: of things that they knew all along, like would you

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Speaker 4: prefer your surgery with or without an anesthesia? Or you know,

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Speaker 4: have you seen Monty Python in the Holy Grail? You know,

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Speaker 4: remember that's really what life was like, and you know,

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Speaker 4: and people they kind of know that at the same time,

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Speaker 4: but you're reading the headlines every day. It's hard to

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Speaker 4: remember that.

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Speaker 1: But people can often have their identity welded to some

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Speaker 1: of these things. I worked with a guy who was

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Speaker 1: an intense He was super smart man, but he was

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Speaker 1: an intense climate denier and any kind of evidence that

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Speaker 1: we would try to talk to him about.

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Speaker 2: It was just rebuffed.

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Speaker 1: With this aggression, and I'm sure that when you started,

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Speaker 1: when you bring these things to people, they may not

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Speaker 1: be as receptive as.

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Speaker 2: One might imagine. Why is that?

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Speaker 1: Why why does data make us go on, No, No,

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Speaker 1: that can't be true, even though it is.

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Speaker 4: Yes. Well, you know, sometimes grafts can change people minds.

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Speaker 4: There are studies that show that even in politically touch

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Speaker 4: the issues, some people do change their mind when they

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Speaker 4: see the data. But very often, as you say, people,

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Speaker 4: if they're emotionally invested in a hypothesis, they'll just filter

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Speaker 4: all the evidence through the lens of what supports what

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Speaker 4: I believe? That is, do I have to believe it?

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Speaker 4: Can I figure out ways where I don't have to

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Speaker 4: don't have to believe it? That's the natural attitude that,

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Speaker 4: to be honest, you know, most of us take about

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Speaker 4: things that are important to our sense of self, the

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Speaker 4: causes that we've devoted ourselves to, the who we think

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Speaker 4: of as our friends, who we think of as our enemies.

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Speaker 4: That kind of belief, when it becomes tribal, when it

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Speaker 4: becomes defines the people that you want to be affiliated with,

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Speaker 4: then it's it's hard to unshake. It's that's one of

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Speaker 4: the most robust of all of the biases that cognitive

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Speaker 4: psychologists have documented in people.

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Speaker 1: What can we do if we find ourselves in that situation?

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Speaker 1: And we you know the whole line. If you can't

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Speaker 1: spot the fish and the poka table, it's you what

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Speaker 1: what can we do if we find ourselves in that situation?

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Speaker 4: There's no guaranteed way out, there's no you know, you

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Speaker 4: may not succeed. You know, if I was sitting down

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Speaker 4: at the table with a pope and I had to

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Speaker 4: convince him that I don't think Jesus really was resurrected

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Speaker 4: from the dead, or that there really was a Garden

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Speaker 4: of Eden, you know, I forget about it. I just

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Speaker 4: would lose. I'm just not going to change his mind.

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Speaker 4: So you can't have the goal of changing everyone's mind.

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Speaker 4: Some people you won't. But you know, there are people

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Speaker 4: who are open to argument for particular issues. There are

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Speaker 4: people where they might reject it, but there could be

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Speaker 4: a sleeper effect as more and more evidence that they

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Speaker 4: can't avoid starts to pile up. The day may come

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Speaker 4: when they flip. And you know, there are new babies

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Speaker 4: being born all the time who don't come into this

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Speaker 4: world with opinions on climate change or the cause of

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Speaker 4: COVID or anything else, and you're going to try to

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Speaker 4: appeal to them.

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Speaker 1: It's magnificent to dig into the new book, which is

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Speaker 1: about the idea of the common the idea of knowledge,

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Speaker 1: which I've been my son Wolfgang, he's six. He was

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Speaker 1: asking me who I'm speaking to today, and we were

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Speaker 1: talking about the idea of common knowledge, and we're explaining it.

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Speaker 1: Like when I was putting to bed last night. It's

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Speaker 1: like down to the beach, like we all know that.

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Speaker 1: We all know that everyone should swim between the flags

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Speaker 1: down to the beach because that is the safe place

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Speaker 1: to swim. And so if we see anyone swimming outside

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Speaker 1: the flags, they're probably either a a very strong swimmer

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Speaker 1: or b not from here. They're probably going to get

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Speaker 1: in a lot of trouble. And so people got out

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Speaker 1: of their way to go, hey, hey, you should swim

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Speaker 1: over there. We do try to encourage people to swim

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Speaker 1: in the right spot. But it's a concept particularly powerful

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Speaker 1: here in Australia because as much as we like to

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Speaker 1: say we're you know, we're Alarican nation descended from the

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Speaker 1: convicts and the people who imprisoned them. You know, we

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Speaker 1: really don't like it when someone does the wrong thing.

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Speaker 4: Yes, no, that is true about having been to Australia

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Speaker 4: a number of times and studied a little bit. The

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Speaker 4: people are proud of having descended from convicts. But it

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Speaker 4: actually is a pretty civilized society. That is, the rate

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Speaker 4: of violent crime in Australia is pretty low, you know,

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Speaker 4: and had too many civil wars or or revenants or riots.

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Speaker 1: That so it's yeah, it's yes, you're right, it's comparatively,

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Speaker 1: it's an incredibly incredible country.

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Speaker 4: Yes, well, and I come from a kind of similar country.

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Speaker 4: I'm Canadian, so a fellow citizen of the Commonwealth, or

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Speaker 4: as they used to call us, a fellow British subject.

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Speaker 4: I was printed on my first passport. Yes, and you know,

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Speaker 4: unlike my adopted country, we didn't achieve our independence through

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Speaker 4: a violent revolution, and we're you know, it's there's no

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Speaker 4: such thing as a perfect society, a utopia. We can

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Speaker 4: do much better than any existing society on earth now.

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Speaker 4: But so if you grate on a curve, if you

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Speaker 4: compare places to live, both Australia and Canada are pretty

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Speaker 4: nice places, and they do well in objective of indicators

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Speaker 4: of human well being long life span, low reader violent crime,

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Speaker 4: low child mortality rate, high levels of educational achievement. It

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Speaker 4: was relative to the rest of the world. That's why

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Speaker 4: so many people want to get in.

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Speaker 1: Yes, the idea of the then you speak about it

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Speaker 1: in the book that common knowledge is a way that

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Speaker 1: unspoken barriers to our community exist because we all know

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Speaker 1: that we all know. For example, and you give it

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Speaker 1: in the book, we all know that we all know

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Speaker 1: that we shouldn't smoke here in this restaurant, and so

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Speaker 1: if someone's smoking, as you've described, you tap someone on

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Speaker 1: the shoulder and pointed asign because we all know, we

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Speaker 1: all know we.

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Speaker 2: Shouldn't do it.

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Speaker 1: Yet I've noticed something in Australia since the COVID lockdowns.

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Speaker 1: I think you've been here since then, the idea that

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Speaker 1: we're a nation of dobbers. Let me explain what that

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Speaker 1: word means to you. A snitch or a tattle tale.

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Speaker 1: We have been starting to report on our neighbors far more.

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Speaker 1: And there's a lot curtain twitching and straight watching going

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Speaker 1: on since the COVID lockdowns. And I'm wondering how you

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Speaker 1: might see how common knowledge and what might play into that,

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Speaker 1: and what might be happening to us as a community

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Speaker 1: to start doing more of that sort of thing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that can have a downside item. It's a good

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Speaker 4: thing if you're reporting pinous abuse, if there's child abuse,

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Speaker 4: if there's a widespread deep graft and corruption, then there

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Speaker 4: is a role for informants. But it can lead to

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Speaker 4: a nineteen eighty four like dystopia where there's no more

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Speaker 4: private sphere. And I do write in the last chapter

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Speaker 4: of the book, which I call radical honesty rational hypocrisy,

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Speaker 4: that we're not crazy for being hypocritical in some ways.

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Speaker 4: So some things that you, I mean, I'm going to

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Speaker 4: make a big assumption here. I might be wrong, but

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Speaker 4: you probably say some things to your wife that you

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Speaker 4: wouldn't say to a friend, a stranger, or a colleague,

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Speaker 4: a coworker. There's probably some I'm getting guess that maybe

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Speaker 4: a little bit of politically incorrect humor in the household,

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Speaker 4: a little bit of gossip even about people that you

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Speaker 4: really like. It's just what can bond people. But and you,

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Speaker 4: since you know, we all know that we're only human

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Speaker 4: and that other people are early human, we kind of

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Speaker 4: know that our friends, you know, almost certainly gossip about us.

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Speaker 4: Why should they be any different. But it's probably a

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Speaker 4: good thing that we don't actually hear that gossip, because

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Speaker 4: a friendship is based on an assumption which is which

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Speaker 4: is you know, strictly speaking, false, which is that you

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Speaker 4: are perfectly loyal to your friends, you would do anything

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Speaker 4: for them, infinitely generous, infinitely respectful, and you know that's

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Speaker 4: true up to a point. And the friendship is based

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Speaker 4: on the assumption that is completely true, and it's probably

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Speaker 4: good for the friendship if you don't challenge that by

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Speaker 4: blurting stuff out that is making it common knowledge. Likewise,

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Speaker 4: in a marriage, people have thoughts about their spouse, or

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Speaker 4: we even have thoughts about people who are not their

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Speaker 4: spouse that you kind of if you're not naive, you

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Speaker 4: know your spouse also is thinking. But again, you're probably

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Speaker 4: better off not voicing all of them and not making

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Speaker 4: them common knowledge. Now, some couples can get away. They

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Speaker 4: just blurt out everything. Most you want to prop up

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Speaker 4: the assumption that a marriage is all for one, one

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Speaker 4: for all, total loyalty, infinite generosity, because that's the actual basis,

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Speaker 4: and that itself is common knowledge. That is, you know

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Speaker 4: it because you know the other person knows that you

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Speaker 4: know that you that they know that you know it,

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Speaker 4: and that's what holds us together.

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Speaker 1: I've been I just I realized when I was getting

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Speaker 1: ready for this that and I know we shouldn't compare

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Speaker 1: our insides and other person's outsides, but I'm age you

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Speaker 1: were when you write the blank slight.

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Speaker 2: And what am I doing with my life?

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Speaker 1: So I was like, come on, like, you know, because

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Speaker 1: I've been a fan of your word for a long time.

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Speaker 1: But that's what Yes, you like arrange find a camera.

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Speaker 1: But at one point we were both teenagers, you know,

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Speaker 1: at one point while we're both little boys. And in

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Speaker 1: that book you talk about a time when you're a

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Speaker 1: teenager in Montreal, and to tie that in with the

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Speaker 1: latest book, Common Knowledge, you were a teenager in Montreal

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Speaker 1: at a very moment when the breakdown of something that

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Speaker 1: had been formally common knowledge, that is, the police are

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Speaker 1: there vanished. And I'm wondering if you might, you know,

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Speaker 1: explain what that was like and how that changed the

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Speaker 1: way you look at the world.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so I mean as fourteen years old, and hell

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Speaker 4: it was late sixties. There are a lot of romantic

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Speaker 4: beliefs going around, including that we shall be anarchists that

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Speaker 4: the police are unnecessary. The police actually cause crime by

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Speaker 4: forcing everyone to do.

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Speaker 1: You don't know anything, mom and dad time.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so you've you've an disippated. The rest of the

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Speaker 4: conversation out been there until uh, you know, was put

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Speaker 4: to a test in in Quebec, where I grew up.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if it's true. In Australia, there are

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Speaker 4: an awful lot of strikes, including public sectors. You know,

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Speaker 4: the nurses go on strike and the letter carriers go

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Speaker 4: on strike, and very French thing it actually, I know,

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Speaker 4: I think you're right, it's probably a more French thing. Well,

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Speaker 4: you know, one day the police went on strike and

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Speaker 4: what do you think happened with all of these you know, polite,

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Speaker 4: civilized Canadians. Well, riots broke out. Ah, there was looting.

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Speaker 4: Every downtown store window was smashed, there was a fatal

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Speaker 4: shooting until they called in the Mounties to restore order.

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Speaker 4: So this is a rather dramatic test of this, you know,

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Speaker 4: admittedly rather juvenile belief. And I've cited a couple of

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Speaker 4: times to make the point that that the yes popular

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Speaker 4: is the police have been in the United States recently,

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Speaker 4: we really do rely on them to to prevent much worse. Mayhem,

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Speaker 4: not so much because not only because they deter people

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Speaker 4: from attacking, robbing, raping, killing, but so much violence, especially

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Speaker 4: in the US, is gang violence. One gang against another,

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Speaker 4: and there one gets shot, and then of course has

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Speaker 4: to be revenge, and there has to be revenge against

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Speaker 4: the revenge, and revenge against the revenge against the revenge.

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Speaker 4: If you know that the police are deterring your enemies,

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Speaker 4: then you don't have to be such a badass yourself

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Speaker 4: and defend your own interests and intimidate them and have

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Speaker 4: revenge against them that you kind of outsource your revenge

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Speaker 4: to the police in the court system.

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Speaker 1: It's it was such a powerful picture of this idea

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Speaker 1: that if the police actually had to go out and

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Speaker 1: truly make sure that everything was okay, you would need

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Speaker 1: one police person for every citizen. But because of the

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Speaker 1: existence of common knowledge that we all know, we have

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Speaker 1: this justice system that our taxes pay for and there

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Speaker 1: are consequences to behavior, we kind of keep in line.

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Speaker 1: And as someone who's a you know, a great scholar

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Speaker 1: of evolutionary reasons for our psychology, I'm wondering, is the

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Speaker 1: idea of common knowledge, the concept of the shared story

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Speaker 1: among community and shared consequences is that one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons we got this successful as a species.

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Speaker 4: Yes, this is a point lead by the best selling

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Speaker 4: After You All Noah Harari.

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Speaker 2: Never heard of him, okay kid?

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Speaker 4: He argued that what makes humans so successful. He calls

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Speaker 4: them fictions things that exist, but they aren't made out

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Speaker 4: of stuff. I would say there are conventions that are

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Speaker 4: held up by common knowledge. That is, they exist because

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Speaker 4: people know that other people know that other people know

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Speaker 4: they exist. So a government, for example, government is not

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Speaker 4: the same as the parliament buildings. They could be in

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Speaker 4: an office building and it'd still be the same government.

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Speaker 4: The corporation, a religion, currency, a university, a nonprofit, especially

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Speaker 4: nowadays when so many institutions are not physical they just

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Speaker 4: live in a cyberspace. In what sense do they exist? Well,

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Speaker 4: they really do exist. There really is such a thing

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Speaker 4: as Microsoft, There really is such a thing as France,

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Speaker 4: There really is such a thing as a Euro. They

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Speaker 4: exist because there are conventions held in place by common knowledge.

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Speaker 4: They exists because everyone thinks they exist, and that can

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Speaker 4: make them exist. You know, there really is such a

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Speaker 4: thing as a euro. Not that, and that's the fact

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Speaker 4: that everyone knows that everyone knows that everyone knows that

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Speaker 4: it's a carrier of value. Is enough. Likewise, as you say,

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Speaker 4: no government has the firepower to intimidate every last citizen.

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Speaker 4: But if in good times you accept the legitimate authority

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Speaker 4: of the government, you just know you do what you

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Speaker 4: know it's the law. You have no choice, you got

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Speaker 4: to do it, and you know that your fellow citizens

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Speaker 4: behave the same way, So that you're not the sucker.

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Speaker 4: You're not the only one who's not pilfering or shoplifting.

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Speaker 4: That it applies to everyone else, so you can afford

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Speaker 4: not to be the sucker. Then that's how power is

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Speaker 4: held up. But conversely, that's also how power can be threatened,

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Speaker 4: how you can get regime change. If everyone shows up

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Speaker 4: in a public square and everyone sees everyone else opposing

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Speaker 4: the government, and they rise up all a mass, then

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Speaker 4: no government can intimidate every last one of them. They

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Speaker 4: can storm the palace, they can bring the machinery the

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Speaker 4: state to a halt through works stoppages, strikes. And this

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Speaker 4: was Gandhi's key idea in the movie. I don't know

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Speaker 4: if the man actually ever said this, but his character

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Speaker 4: in the movie said to a British colonial officer. In

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Speaker 4: the end, you will leave because one hundred and fifty

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Speaker 4: thousand Englishmen simply cannot control three hundred and fifty million

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Speaker 4: Indians if the Indians refused to cooperate. Now that cooperation

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Speaker 4: or lack of cooperation is a matter of common knowledge.

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Speaker 4: That is, even if I'm disgruntled with the regime, if

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Speaker 4: I don't know that everyone else's and I don't know

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Speaker 4: that everyone else knows that everyone else is, there's nothing

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Speaker 4: I can do about it. If I were to show

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Speaker 4: up in a public demonstration and seeing everyone wanting to

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Speaker 4: storm the palace, then that could give you safety in numbers.

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Speaker 4: And there have been revolutions such as in Romania in

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Speaker 4: nineteen eighty nine, when Nikola, like Tijesku, held a public

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Speaker 4: rally which he thought the adoring masses would come out

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Speaker 4: to worship the exalted leader. One guy in the front

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Speaker 4: started to jeer and heckel, and then it became contagious,

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Speaker 4: and then he was facing an angry mob of one

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Speaker 4: hundred thousand people. Within a couple of days, the regime

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Speaker 4: fell and he was dead, strung up on a lamp post.

436
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 4: And this is what dictators are terrified of and I

437
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 4: guess all leaders. And that's why you don't have freedom

438
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 4: of assembly in a dictatorship. You don't have freedom of

439
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,399
Speaker 4: the press because another way to generate common knowledge, to

440
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 4: make it public what everyone might be privately feeling, is

441
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 4: through a widely circulated manifesto or op ed. I recount

442
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,200
Speaker 4: a joke from the old Soviet Union of a man

443
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 4: handing out leaflets in red square. Of course, the KGP

444
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 4: arrest him and bring him back to headquarters, only discover

445
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,360
Speaker 4: the leaflets are blank sheets of paper. Take in front

446
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:51,720
Speaker 4: of What is the meaning of this? He says, what's

447
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,919
Speaker 4: there to say? It's so obvious. So the point of

448
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 4: the joke was he was generating subversive common knowledge. That

449
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 4: is the city in the Soviet Union, they all knew

450
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 4: that the regime was inefficient and cruel and oppressive. But

451
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 4: each one may have thought that they were the only

452
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 4: one that everyone else was happy, or they may even

453
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 4: have thought that everyone else was aggrieved the way they are,

454
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 4: but they didn't know that everyone else was, and so

455
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 4: everyone just kept their misery to themselves. By just making

456
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 4: it public, making it common knowledge that there's a reason

457
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 4: to oppose the regime, that can unite people in opposition

458
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,439
Speaker 4: and can literally really bring down a regime.

459
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 1: We're just taking a break from the incredible doctor Stephen Pinket,

460
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,640
Speaker 1: just to let our brains catch up a little bit

461
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 1: and also feed the better angels of my bank balances

462
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 1: nature by playing some ads, because it's show business, not

463
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:48,919
Speaker 1: your friends, and you don't pay for the podcast, so

464
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 1: I need to play some ads.

465
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:51,200
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to these.

466
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 3: I hope they bring value to your day, and we'll

467
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 3: be back with more podcasts in a moment.

468
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 1: You wonderfully weave humor into your work. Amidst all the

469
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 1: very very dense you know it is chu, Chu, You've

470
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 1: got a better idea than such as much amid it

471
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,360
Speaker 1: all out, there's there's You put a couple of really

472
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 1: great gags in there, Stephen.

473
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 2: And you know it.

474
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 1: It's interesting because you mentioned the gag about the Soviet

475
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,399
Speaker 1: you know, and my father grew up in Prague and

476
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 1: jokes were he escaped in sixty eight. Jokes were a

477
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 1: huge way and humor. Both my parents adopters as well,

478
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 1: Like not only was it a huge way of my

479
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 1: dad to deal with the loss of his country. He

480
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 1: used to say, there's one oh, when the Germans came

481
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty nine, we sent a message to the

482
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: Red Army.

483
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 2: They turned up in sixty eight and went.

484
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 1: Sorry, well late, there is I mean, you've got tanks

485
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,159
Speaker 1: rolling down the street, you know, crushing people like you

486
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 1: got them, and both both my parents.

487
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 4: Well, and there was. There was a rich mean of

488
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,879
Speaker 4: humor in the Soviets. A great example, or another one is,

489
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 4: what is the definition of capitalism? It's the exploitation of

490
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 4: man by man. What is the definition of communism the

491
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 4: exact opposite.

492
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 1: So, but what we're doing here these aren't particularly funny jokes.

493
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 2: There's not a knock knock, who's there?

494
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 1: But humor and satire have always played a role. They

495
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: seem to have almost this superpower. Is that it's the

496
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 1: dye and the ointment of spoiling entire water supply. Why

497
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: is it that humor is able to crack of an

498
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,959
Speaker 1: ear so effectively? We're like an op ed can't And

499
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,360
Speaker 1: what role do you see satire having in helping us

500
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: get through this particularly weird strong man time?

501
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 4: Yes, well I do, and I do discuss that in

502
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 4: a section of When Everyone Knows That Everyone Knows on Humor,

503
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 4: where I talk about everyday generators of common knowledge in

504
00:26:55,400 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 4: our nonverbal communication. The chapter is called laughing, trying, blushing, staring,

505
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 4: glaring expressions that ies think are generators of common knowledge,

506
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 4: and laughter is one of them. If you laugh, you

507
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 4: know you're laughing. It's interrupting your breathing. Other people know

508
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 4: you're laughing because they can hear the ha ha ha,

509
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 4: and they know that you know that you're laughing, and

510
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 4: so on. What laughter does is it makes some weakness

511
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 4: or infirmity or indignity of the butt of the humor

512
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 4: common knowledge. That is, everyone may have known that someone

513
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 4: had feet of clay. They were weak, they were foolish.

514
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 4: But when you make a joke and people laugh, and

515
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 4: the laughter itself is contagious, and anyone who gets the

516
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 4: joke is suddenly not only aware of the target's weakness,

517
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 4: but aware that everyone else is aware, and aware that

518
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 4: everyone else is aware of the awareness, and often by

519
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 4: hiding the insult, the dig the attack in a joke

520
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,880
Speaker 4: where it's not stated explicitly, but if you didn't know that,

521
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,160
Speaker 4: you wouldn't get the joke. The fact that you laugh

522
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 4: and my laughter is largely involuntary, as well as being contigious,

523
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 4: shows that you knew it all along. When the laughter happens,

524
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 4: then everyone who knew it all along knows that everyone

525
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 4: else knew it all along.

526
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 1: I work a lot on live on stage, and I

527
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: did a show a couple of years back, and I

528
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 1: would always whenever city I was in, I would call

529
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,239
Speaker 1: someone that I know is a particularly darker person and

530
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 1: I say, could you come along? I'll give a free ticket,

531
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 1: because if I get them to laugh at the first

532
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: really dark thing in the first minute or two of

533
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 1: the gig.

534
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 2: It was fine because that gave.

535
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 1: Like big laugh early on at the first like really

536
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 1: dark thing, Everyone's like, oh cool, we're a k to

537
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: laugh at this.

538
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 2: But if that wasn't there, it was always hard.

539
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 4: Well. No, that's interesting because if I suggest laughter is

540
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 4: a way of generating common knowledge, making it known what was,

541
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 4: make it publicly know what used to be privately known,

542
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 4: and if the actual laughter sound is what spreads that message,

543
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 4: then because contagious you know, I don't this is a cliche.

544
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 4: The timing is everything. But also sometimes a one trigger,

545
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 4: one spark can ignite the whole group. And that's why

546
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 4: in American sitcoms until recently, there was a laugh track

547
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 4: canned laughter, artificial laughter why in I've heard the comedy clubs,

548
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 4: I don't know if this is an urban legendar In

549
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 4: true store would sometimes hire someone who has a big, raucous,

550
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 4: rowdy laugh to get the audience going. And the rim

551
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 4: shot about a bing. I think that's back from vaudeville.

552
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 4: That staccato sound which sounds a bit like a laugh,

553
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 4: can get everyone going, and it can also be a

554
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 4: timing signal so that everyone knows when to laugh, and

555
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 4: therefore the contagion can become a chain reaction. And sometimes

556
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 4: dark humor can also bond people in similar circumstances where

557
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 4: some of the things that they may have feared were private,

558
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 4: like am I the only one who sometimes gets burned out?

559
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 4: Who sometimes cynical? When that is shared within a tight circle,

560
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 4: then that set of people, if they get the joke,

561
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 4: that means they now know that something that they've been

562
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 4: privately thinking, their peers have been thinking as well. Of course,

563
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 4: if it escapes that circle, then there can be trouble

564
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 4: as people who haven't experienced it themselves just take it

565
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 4: and face value and just assume that this is a cruel,

566
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 4: callous person.

567
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 1: And I'll know you've been the target of some of

568
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 1: this stuff. But in your work you also explore the

569
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,239
Speaker 1: whole idea of someone being canceled because of yes, they

570
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: made a job a duck joke which was supposed to

571
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: bond or whatever, but another person was offended on behalf

572
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: of someone else, and then there was a catastrophic pylon.

573
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: And I'm wondering you grew up in Canada, and I'm

574
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: sure it happens in the States as well. But when

575
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: it comes to common knowledge about who gets canceled and

576
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 1: who stays canceled for some reason, our athletes, high profile

577
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 1: athletes are under a different set of rules. We have

578
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: this in Australia. This for footballers at least, we have

579
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: this this grub to goal ratio, like if you're just

580
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: if you've scored a few more goals, and how grubby

581
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: you are, you're fine or wank at a wickets, like

582
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 1: if you've scored just if you've taken a couple more

583
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: hundred wickets than how many people you've cheated on your

584
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 1: wife with, we'll always remember you as a great cricket player.

585
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: And I'm what, how does the common knowledge play into

586
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 1: Like we all know they should not have done that

587
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: terrible thing to that person. Oh yeah, but then there

588
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 1: was an amazing goal they scored in the Grand Final.

589
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm not sure if it's that's so much a

590
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 4: case of common is just two things pulling in opposite directions,

591
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 4: and you really do want a good athlete on your team,

592
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 4: and the part of you that enjoys sports wants that.

593
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 4: The part of you that has some kind of moral standards,

594
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 4: or in the case where sometimes there's a scandal, it's

595
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 4: not that immoral, but it's just a scandal because it

596
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 4: violates some kind of propriety and there are fewer and

597
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 4: fewer of those, then to signal that you actually believe

598
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 4: that there is such a thing as motion moral and

599
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 4: social norms. Then part of the dynamic of outrage and

600
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 4: cancel culture is that if someone breaches a norm in

601
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 4: a public setting where the breach is common knowledge, everyone

602
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 4: sees it or hears it. Everyone knows. Therefore that everyone

603
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 4: else has heard and seen it for the norm to survive,

604
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 4: given that it isn't policed and you can't be thrown

605
00:32:56,080 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 4: in jail for tasteless joke or something, then people who

606
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 4: want to uphold that norm, who are worried that if

607
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 4: it's floated in public, it will just unravel because it

608
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 4: only exists to the extent that people think it exists.

609
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 4: If people no longer think it exists, it doesn't exist.

610
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 4: If you want it to continue to exist, then the

611
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 4: violator has to be punished in some public arena, and

612
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 4: so you get the social media mobbing and piling on

613
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 4: where everyone tries to disgrace the person in order to

614
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 4: keep the norm norm, and it has to be public.

615
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 4: It's itself go viral to negate the public threat that

616
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 4: triggered it in the first place.

617
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 1: I would like to imagine that people who buy your books,

618
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: maybe one of the people who go to your lectures

619
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 1: and go to your events, possibly far more towards the

620
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: center or the progressive side of politics, open to new ideas,

621
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: willing to explore possibility. What are the thinking traps in

622
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 1: the biases that people on the progressive side of things

623
00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 1: can get stuck in that isn't doing them any favors

624
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 1: that they've think they're too smart to get stuck in

625
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 1: or believe they're immune to.

626
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 4: Part of it is a failure to ever sit down

627
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 4: for a few seconds and understand the arguments for non leftispositions,

628
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 4: such as why markets are beneficial, that they make people

629
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 4: both richer and freer and happier. Why there may be

630
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 4: reasons why groups differ in their outcomes that aren't just

631
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 4: due to external racism. That there may be cultural traits

632
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 4: that certain ethnic groups have that they carry with them

633
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 4: wherever they go and that determine their success or failure

634
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 4: independently of the way they're treated. That there are. There

635
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,760
Speaker 4: may be positive reasons why you want a criminal justice

636
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 4: system and police. There may be reasons to keep traditions

637
00:34:55,640 --> 00:35:01,760
Speaker 4: like sexual propriety that may seem to have no rational

638
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 4: basis at all, but it might just be ways that

639
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 4: our species has managed to avoid slipping into chaos, even

640
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 4: if we don't understand them, the fact they've survived so

641
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 4: long and may be some rationale for them. They're classical

642
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 4: arguments for certain conservative positions that I suspect a lot

643
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,879
Speaker 4: of people on the left would not even be able

644
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 4: to articulate, that is, to set them up so they

645
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 4: could say what's wrong with them? They just would not,

646
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 4: And it's considered to be by the way. This goes

647
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 4: both ways. It's also true for the right when it

648
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 4: comes to left ring positions. It's just your kind of

649
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 4: human nature. It's often considered to be a sign of

650
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 4: rational discourse, of civil discourse, that you be able to

651
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 4: state your opponent's position in a fair minded way that

652
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 4: they themselves would agree to. He said, yep, that you

653
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 4: just specify to steal man their arguments exactly. So it's

654
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 4: an absence of steel manning. That is a good habit

655
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 4: of rationality. It can come from tribalism insularity. If everyone

656
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 4: you know agrees with you, then you may never be

657
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 4: exposed to countervailing arguments. And of course it happens on

658
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 4: both sides, and may be getting worse as there is

659
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 4: more segregation of people, where educated and younger people tend

660
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 4: to gravitate to urban areas, less educated tend to stay

661
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 4: in the in rural areas. Institutions that used to bring

662
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 4: people together across these divides, like churches, like service organizations

663
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 4: like the Rotary Club and the Masons and the Shriners,

664
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 4: the army in days when there was conscription, when you

665
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 4: were in the army together with people that were you,

666
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 4: not like you. Those have eroded, and people more and

667
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,879
Speaker 4: more tend to hang out with people like themselves, which

668
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 4: I think is what has encouraged some of the polarization

669
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 4: that we see.

670
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 2: Oh, that's it.

671
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: I'm starting a secret society, if only for the handshakes

672
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: and the cool little aprons. Yes, that's that's what I'm doing.

673
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 4: The reasons. Yes, my grandfather tried to get my father

674
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 4: to join the Mesons and he just he couldn't deal

675
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 4: with the aprinshas evolutionary.

676
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 1: Evolutionary psychology, as as we mentioned, is one of your

677
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 1: one of your fields of expertise. There's an Australian comedian,

678
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:36,360
Speaker 1: brilliant singer and comedian, Jordan Raskoppolis, and she told me

679
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: once she was always surprised when she revealed to people

680
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 1: that she was neurodiverse. And she goes, what do you

681
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:47,359
Speaker 1: what do you mean? Why are you surprised that I'm neurodivergent. No,

682
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,919
Speaker 1: there's not suddenly lots of us here. We've always been here.

683
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: Who the fuck do you think with the cartographers who

684
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: could be bothered to sit down and write a dictionary

685
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 1: by hand? And I'm wondering if, over the course of

686
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 1: your work you've been able to see or identify how

687
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 1: well neurodivergence has played a role in how we got

688
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: to now.

689
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 4: Well itself can be a controversial topic, one that you

690
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,319
Speaker 4: can get canceled and you say some of the wrong

691
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 4: things because people's identity gets tied up in being neurodivergent.

692
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,240
Speaker 4: I think it's a good thing that we recognize human variation.

693
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 4: We're not all the same. I suspect that some categories

694
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 4: like autism or even autism spectrum are probably being stretched

695
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 4: to apply to people who are just introverted or obsessive compulsive.

696
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,320
Speaker 4: That I don't know about the situation in Australia, but

697
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:45,359
Speaker 4: there are actually some advantages to being diagnosed as say

698
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 4: artistic or add if you're a student, you get extra

699
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 4: time on exams, you might get a room to yourself.

700
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 4: To the point where twenty percent of Harvard students have

701
00:38:54,640 --> 00:39:00,080
Speaker 4: a diagnosed disorder. Now that is gaming the system. And

702
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 4: I have students come into my office. I have a

703
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 4: perfectly lively conversation with them. They're charming, they're funny, and

704
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 4: they think, oh, by the way, I'm like artistic, and

705
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 4: I think you are not autistic. That at least you're

706
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 4: not autistic in the same sense as the true profoundly

707
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,320
Speaker 4: artistic kids that I have seen who never learn to speak,

708
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 4: for example, and never actually look at your face and

709
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:31,360
Speaker 4: make high pitched noises and writhe and twist in a

710
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 4: chair and can can sit still. All of the symptoms

711
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 4: of profounder autism are just not on a spectrum with

712
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 4: the kind of obsessive introverts that now call themselves artistic,

713
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 4: whatever you call them. It is good to recognize that

714
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 4: not all people are are clones of one another.

715
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 1: We talked about using common knowledge as a way, and

716
00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:01,359
Speaker 1: common knowledge has been used to create v It's used

717
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,760
Speaker 1: to sometimes create fear, particularly around election campaigns, certainly in America, definitely,

718
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 1: certainly in Australia. What are some ways that leaders or

719
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 1: communicators could generate common knowledge in a ways that brings

720
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 1: cohesion and brings a society together with the idea of

721
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:17,240
Speaker 1: moving forward together.

722
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, a skilled politician has to one thing. They

723
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:26,919
Speaker 4: have to assemble a coalition. There aren't enough people who

724
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 4: all agree about everything to give you a majority of

725
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 4: the votes. I mean, people just have lots of oppeings,

726
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 4: but lots of things. And so where we criticize politicians

727
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 4: for being evasive, elusive, vague, we're kind of attacking exactly

728
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 4: what they need to get elected. Namely not to piss

729
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 4: off sectors of the population that could make the difference

730
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 4: between winning and losing an election. So of course politicians

731
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 4: have to be vague and somewhat hypocritical. That's what it

732
00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 4: takes to win an election in a democracy. H the

733
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,839
Speaker 4: and I think a skill leader can give people some

734
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:10,800
Speaker 4: have enough of a common denominator that otherwise diverse people

735
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 4: have a reason to vote for them. You know, ideally

736
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:19,320
Speaker 4: they would without pitting themselves down to something so specifically

737
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 4: they alienate some sector or other, have enough of a

738
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 4: common purpose, namely, you know, for all our divisions, everyone

739
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 4: would rather be richer than poorer. Everyone would rather be

740
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 4: safe than in danger. Everyone would rather have their kids

741
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 4: go to good schools the bad schools. So a good

742
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 4: polson who can capitalize on what people really do have

743
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 4: in common, while being vague enough about the more divisive

744
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 4: things that they don't kind of shed them.

745
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 1: I don't want to get into it too much, but

746
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: like I said, you're you're a personal profile. Often you

747
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 1: come under attack, often by with irrational arguments against you.

748
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 2: You work on the Harvard campus, it's been a very

749
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 2: interesting place the last couple of years.

750
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 4: And you're also Unfortunately I like the better. It was

751
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 4: a boring place.

752
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 1: But you're a You're also a human being, and I'm

753
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 1: interested to know. You know, the Stoics talked about even

754
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 1: them with all their thinking, that would still feel the

755
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 1: animalistic flood of hormones through their body the quarters all

756
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: and go okay, just don't do anything for twenty minutes.

757
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,359
Speaker 1: What do you do when you find yourself incensed and like, oh,

758
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:31,320
Speaker 1: that flood of feeling goes through your body and you

759
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 1: feel your you know, carott Artery start to pulse. How

760
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,240
Speaker 1: do you handle it when you are kind of overwhelmed

761
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 1: or really confronted.

762
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, I try to organize my day to day life

763
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:51,399
Speaker 4: so that I No mature person can avoid unpleasant things

764
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 4: in their career. You've got to read the criticism. You've

765
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 4: got to know what people are saying about you. On

766
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 4: the other hand, you do have, as you say, we

767
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:03,359
Speaker 4: are all human beings. We have emotional life. It's never

768
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 4: pleasure to be pleasurable to be attacked, even to be criticized,

769
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 4: And so how do I reconcile those Well? I have

770
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:15,360
Speaker 4: certain habits or guidelines. If I read something that is

771
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 4: going to be that I know is going to be

772
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 4: criticism unpleasant. I'll do it in a case where it

773
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,359
Speaker 4: won't have spillover effects and ruin my day. I won't

774
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 4: do it before going to bed, for example, where it

775
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:27,919
Speaker 4: will keep me up. I don't even do it over

776
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 4: a meal where I want to be able to digest.

777
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:34,879
Speaker 4: I'll do it at times when I set aside time. Okay,

778
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 4: now my workday has begun. I will process it, and

779
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 4: then I also have other things to do afterwards, so

780
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:42,439
Speaker 4: I'll be obsessing about it the rest of the day.

781
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,280
Speaker 4: Or I'll read it on an airplane where I'm already miserable,

782
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 4: cramped up in a little space. How much more miserable

783
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 4: can I be? A like life hacks like that? Or

784
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 4: I'll follow it with something that I know will give

785
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:02,439
Speaker 4: me pleasure or relax me. That is, you don't want

786
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 4: to you want to respect yourself as a feeling being,

787
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:10,799
Speaker 4: but also be aware that you've got to handle some

788
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 4: of the unpleasant thing. Sometimes I'll remember the line from

789
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 4: The Godfather where uh, it's said of your cording on

790
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 4: and he wants to get his bad news right away,

791
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 4: and Tom Higgen returns on the flight to tell him

792
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 4: that they won't sign up Johnny Fontaine. Of course, he

793
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 4: also made it easier by leaving a horse's head in

794
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 4: the In the better of the.

795
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 1: Heart, I thought, you're going to say my favorite one,

796
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 1: which is from Godfather Part two, This is the business

797
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 1: we have chosen.

798
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,240
Speaker 2: I chose it, you know, this is what I chose.

799
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 2: I chose his life.

800
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 4: You're don't ask me about my work, Okay.

801
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: Ever asked you about work? Here I am asking about you.

802
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 1: What I listened to you speak and I can see

803
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 1: there's a light in your eyes. You're you're you're a

804
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,439
Speaker 1: very vital person. Clearly your brain is a big part

805
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 1: of why you have your career. But without your body,

806
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 1: you've got.

807
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:04,759
Speaker 2: Nowhere to go. How do you look after yourself? And

808
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 2: what role? What role does you know physicality play in

809
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 2: your work?

810
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I do. I do trying to keep up exercise.

811
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 4: In fact, I'm going to make a secret confession to

812
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 4: you right now. It's not it's not going to be

813
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 4: secret for much longer. Where we hanger from this interview,

814
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 4: I want to get in thirty minutes of exercise on

815
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:28,959
Speaker 4: the stationary bicycle. So I'm actually only wearing a shirt

816
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 4: and tie from the waist up. Excellent I'm going to

817
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:32,760
Speaker 4: stand up now.

818
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 1: And yes, yes, yes, bicycle bicycle shoes. Yes, what what

819
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 1: of us?

820
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 2: What us?

821
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 1: I've got my kicker in the other room.

822
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:54,320
Speaker 4: Okay, so something else we have in common.

823
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:57,720
Speaker 2: I love that so much. I love that so much.

824
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 1: But this is really important because you can't Your body

825
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 1: needs these hormones to think properly.

826
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 2: You need these things. You need to move your body

827
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 2: to work properly.

828
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 4: You do just for one thing to keep I find

829
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 4: it hard to think deep thoughts while I'm exercising vigorously,

830
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:20,839
Speaker 4: and so being able to turn off your turn off

831
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 4: that motor inside your head by just your energy being

832
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 4: absorbed by your muscles is good. And it of course

833
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 4: you're healthy of longevity. And I'll add something this is

834
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:36,320
Speaker 4: you know, there are lots of bogus ways of improving

835
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 4: your memory, your mental functioning, staving off dementia. But you

836
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 4: know one that's that I think almost everyone agrees on.

837
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 4: And I asked one of my colleagues, as an expert

838
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 4: in memory, is exercise is really good for your brain.

839
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,879
Speaker 4: That is, you know, because it keeps your arteries open,

840
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 4: keeps blood flow going. But it's also a way of

841
00:46:55,000 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 4: just changing your mindset. I generally like myself. So it's

842
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 4: winter here, it's a really, really really cool day here

843
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 4: in Boston, so I'm not going to take my bicycle outside,

844
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 4: and so I will go on the stationary rulers. But

845
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 4: in general, I like exercise that makes scenery go by.

846
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,720
Speaker 4: I'm not big for gyms. I like cycling, I like running,

847
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 4: I like hiking, I like kayaking, so that as I

848
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 4: exert myself, new things come into view, scenery goes by.

849
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 4: And it was not for any everyone, but so for me,

850
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:35,360
Speaker 4: it's also a way just to physically experience the world

851
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 4: at the same time as I'm contracting my muscles.

852
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 1: Well, Steve, and I know you are coming out to

853
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 1: Australia for a tour which I'm very much looking forward to.

854
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 1: Please pack your bicycle shoes. I will organize a bicycle

855
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 1: for you. You name how far are you want to ride.

856
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 1: I will get you a bike and we will go

857
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 1: and it will be glorious deal.

858
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 4: I can hold you to that.

859
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 1: Oh you're on, Steven. It's an absolute pleasure and on.

860
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 1: Thank you how much of your time tonight?

861
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 4: Oh pleasure, Thanks so much for having me. Thanks for

862
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 4: the conversation. I really enjoyed it.

863
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 1: That was doctor Stephen Pinker. He's touring Australia in just

864
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks. He's coming Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne.

865
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 1: The link to grab tickets are in the show notes.

866
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 1: It is a fantastic idea to get out of your

867
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 1: house and go and see it in a room with

868
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 1: other people who are curious and interested and listen to

869
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 1: a person who is there to maybe challenge you a

870
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,839
Speaker 1: little bit but also offer us shitload. I hope he's

871
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 1: a great dude, brilliant brain. The idea that you can

872
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 1: go and listen to this man speak while we're all alive.

873
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:38,439
Speaker 1: It's like watching Serena Williams Playtenner's Right. If you could

874
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:39,879
Speaker 1: go and see her, you go and see her because

875
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 1: she's one of the goats, right, He's one of the goats.

876
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 2: Get along.

877
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:45,799
Speaker 1: Stephen Pinker's tour is on sale right now as his

878
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 1: Story Club February fifteenth, Factory Theater in Sydney.

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00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 3: If you can't get.

880
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 2: To the show, the story Club YouTube is pumping.

881
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 1: You can go and see a new story every Thursday

882
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 1: right there, and then thank you so much for listening

883
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,319
Speaker 1: to the show. I'll be back here in a couple

884
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 1: of days. If you like the show, please rate it,

885
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:04,400
Speaker 1: review it, forward it to a friend, Tell a friend.

886
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: There's a link to a mailing list in the show

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00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 1: notes as well. I'd love to be able to keep

888
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:10,319
Speaker 1: you updated. You can find all that there.

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00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 2: Click the show notes. Just click the fucking show notes.

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Speaker 2: I'll say your saying,