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Speaker 1: I'll get a team. It's it's me, It's Quig Anthony

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Speaker 1: harpert'z the you projected Tiffany and Cook over there at

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Speaker 1: typ Central, Uh and Lucas. We're going to go with Andrew.

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Speaker 1: We'll find out a minute. Lucas Andra Dixon, I made

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Speaker 1: that up. It could be. I bet it starts with

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Speaker 1: a vow. Not sure, TIV. Why are you wearing glasses?

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Speaker 2: Because I wanted to fit in halps peer pressure? Really? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: well secure Lucas looked really intelligent. You've got YOURWS and

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Speaker 2: I was like.

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Speaker 1: Let's call him doctor Lucas because he's a fresh doctor.

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Speaker 1: He's like about six months a doctor, so we're going

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Speaker 1: to call him that. And he's afreshy. And when you're

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Speaker 1: a freshy, I mean, I don't know. I've never been one,

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Speaker 1: but maybe one day, who knows. Tif How things over

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Speaker 1: on planet tiff.

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Speaker 2: Things are fabulous. Although I've got my hot lucky blanket

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Speaker 2: on my legs and instead of roasting, and I don't

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Speaker 2: know why I'm not turning it off, But you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe one of you doctors can or almost doctors can.

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Speaker 1: Well there's a real doctor. There's a real doctor and

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Speaker 1: a not a close doctor, so just a bullshitter. So

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Speaker 1: and I don't think he's that kind of doctor, although

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Speaker 1: he might have some kind of psychological interpretation of what

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Speaker 1: the fuck you're doing. Hey, Lucas, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Pleasure to be here, Craig, and thanks Tiffany.

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Speaker 1: Wow, thanks for coming to playmatee. Now let me tell

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Speaker 1: everyone how you and I. I was telling you before

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Speaker 1: we went live. I typically don't invite guests on the show,

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Speaker 1: it's not my job, but Melissa and Tiff tend to

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Speaker 1: one do that and to be much better at that

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Speaker 1: than me. And I was reading a paper when I

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Speaker 1: should have been reading other papers. So I blame you

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Speaker 1: for my lack of productivity with my own research.

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Speaker 3: I'll take them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but you wrote a paper called the Secret

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Speaker 1: to Success, the Psychology of belief in manifestation. Is that

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Speaker 1: the oh no, no, no, this was the one. No,

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Speaker 1: that was it. Yeah, that was the paper, and and

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, this is so good. So I want

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Speaker 1: to dive into that. But I just want to give you.

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Speaker 3: You didn't say it, whether you didn't say it with

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Speaker 3: the question mark tone in your voice. For those of

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Speaker 3: the podcast, that's the Secrets.

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Speaker 1: Success question mark Yeah, the psychology of belief in manifestation

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Speaker 1: or perfect You know those people who went down the

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Speaker 1: old secret rabbit hole about a decade ago. They're just

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Speaker 1: going to sit on the couch and manifest fucking excellence.

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Speaker 1: How's that going anyway? So here's a bit of a snapshot.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Lucas Dixon, graduated with a PhD in Social and

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Speaker 1: consumer psychology from the UQ Business School in twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: investigates the psychology of the success industry. I fucking love this,

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Speaker 1: including the marketing and consumption of small business and solo

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Speaker 1: preneur business education. He also investigates psychological factors that contribute

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Speaker 1: to participating in multi level marketing and get rich quick schemes.

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Speaker 1: Having run his own small business, Lucas aims to reduce fraud,

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Speaker 1: misleading marketing, and improve offerings in this space. Are people,

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Speaker 1: let's start with, are people just as gullible now as

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Speaker 1: they were ten years ago, twenty years ago? Are they

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Speaker 1: more gullible? Or are we more discerning? Or don't you know, doc, Oh.

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Speaker 3: That's a good question, Craig, But I couldn't answer that really,

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Speaker 3: But I look, my sneaking suspicion, is we We're all

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Speaker 3: gullible if people say the right things to us at

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Speaker 3: the right time. Some perhaps more gullible than others. If

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Speaker 3: we I mean, I guess as psychologists or whatever, we

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Speaker 3: will break that down and think, well, what are the

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Speaker 3: aspects of gullibility. So it's not just one thing that

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Speaker 3: kind of makes us us gullible. But I do feel

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Speaker 3: that we're in a unique time for this kind of

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Speaker 3: being persuaded, being you know, being I guess hypnotizable in

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Speaker 3: a way because of the factors that this new media

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Speaker 3: landscape is not something we've experienced before. AI is going

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Speaker 3: to be super interesting. They see what happens there. We're

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Speaker 3: just not very great at times in making decisions with

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Speaker 3: our heads or working out how to do that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess. Also, like you know, to quote many people,

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Speaker 1: we love the idea of two minute abs, right love.

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Speaker 1: We love the idea of reward without work. We love

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Speaker 1: the idea of the destination without the journey you know,

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Speaker 1: fill in the blank. The instant gratification, the quick fix,

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Speaker 1: the magic pill, the silver bullet, like, all that stuff

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Speaker 1: is fucking attractive. And if you can get someone to

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Speaker 1: believe that that might be real, which is not that

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Speaker 1: hard for people who don't want to do the work.

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Speaker 1: Then bibbity bobby boo ka ching you've got a sale.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, exactly, No, I agree, And it's one of

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Speaker 3: the it's you know, that's I guess something I can

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Speaker 3: speak to that we've we have found that, you know,

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Speaker 3: the more you believe that, the more you believe that

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Speaker 3: there really are get rich quick schemes, the more you're

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Speaker 3: likely to believe the next one. You know, And so

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Speaker 3: I guess the more that you're around groups and people

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Speaker 3: and consuming content that is kind of reinforcing that message.

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Speaker 3: And it's easy to see why you might believe that

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Speaker 3: when you can hear people's stories of a success that

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Speaker 3: are kind of like got that hero's journey, or you know,

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Speaker 3: they're sort of leaving out all the hard bits, or

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Speaker 3: you know, they're just kind of doing their their best

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Speaker 3: to sort of tell an appealing story about how we've

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Speaker 3: triumphed over some adversity. But of course life's not that simple,

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Speaker 3: and there's so much that maybe we don't even know

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Speaker 3: that's contributed to our success. But those simplistic narratives are

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Speaker 3: great for TikTok, great for YouTube, and great for and

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Speaker 3: of course they can be really motivational, but also kind

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Speaker 3: of leave us down this path of feeling like success

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Speaker 3: should be a quick or easy or a linear process

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Speaker 3: of just climbing a ladder, and it's I don't know

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Speaker 3: about you, but it hasn't been my experience.

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Speaker 1: Well yeah, I mean, my background, as I told you briefly,

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Speaker 1: was working with thousands of people helping them change their body.

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Speaker 1: And you know, one of the funny things is, or

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Speaker 1: one of the common things I guess is somebody wakes

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Speaker 1: up one day. Let's just pick someone who's forty and

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Speaker 1: they've been in and out of shape for a lot

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Speaker 1: of their life, which was my story for a long time,

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Speaker 1: in and out of shape, fit, unfit, big, small, overweight,

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Speaker 1: fucking you know, ripped and rock hard everything. And then

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Speaker 1: you know, one day people wake up and they want

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Speaker 1: to undo forty years of kind of shitty thinking and

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Speaker 1: choosing and behaving in four weeks, you know, and to

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Speaker 1: create a new operating system. And all of that is great,

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Speaker 1: but ye know, for so like when we talk specifically

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Speaker 1: about the idea of physical transformation, you know, it's a

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Speaker 1: physical process, but it's also such a psychological, emotional, sociological

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Speaker 1: journey and like, you know, being able to step up

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Speaker 1: and own up and say, well, I really do want

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Speaker 1: to be successful. I do want to create that outcome,

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Speaker 1: but I also need to acknowledge that it might not

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Speaker 1: be fun or quick or easy or painless, you know,

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Speaker 1: because that the two minute ads, the silver bullet, that

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Speaker 1: stuff is hugely appealing, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I agree, And it's it's also you know, really appealing

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Speaker 3: for us perfectionists out there, and when I'm sure you've

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Speaker 3: spoken a lot about that in your fifteen hundred episodes,

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Speaker 3: and it's one of those things that if you expect

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Speaker 3: you're going to you want to have high expectations of yourself,

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Speaker 3: but you know, to hold yourself to that that I

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Speaker 3: guess to have some kind of degree of self esteem

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Speaker 3: and self confidence and want to to really raise that bar,

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Speaker 3: but at the same time kind of realize we're not

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Speaker 3: always going to hit it and not let that be

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Speaker 3: the thing that's advotages you just because you're not you're

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Speaker 3: not winning at the degree or the rate that you

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Speaker 3: thought you were going to to be doing. And sometimes, hey,

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Speaker 3: I hope that sometimes we could surprise ourselves. I always

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Speaker 3: say to my students, you know, I try to keep

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Speaker 3: my expectations in check and then I'm just pleasantly surprised.

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Speaker 3: I love being surprised when things go well. But maybe

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Speaker 3: it's because I'm a natural pessimist. I don't know you.

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Speaker 1: Are you truly a natural?

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Speaker 3: Like?

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Speaker 1: Is that how you're kind of wired? Look?

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Speaker 4: I mean that's such a It's interesting, I think I

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Speaker 4: when I become too optimistic, which I can do so

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Speaker 4: I can be influenced and I can get.

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Speaker 3: Caught up in imagination. My background was as a musician,

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Speaker 3: that was my first career, and so I guess I

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Speaker 3: have a creative, artistic mind and I've definitely had I've

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Speaker 3: been through sort of the self help and personal development

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Speaker 3: industry side of things as well as a consumer of that,

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Speaker 3: from probably when I was maybe sixteen seventeen all the

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Speaker 3: way up until sort of being a practitioner as a

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Speaker 3: coach and as a hypnotherapist for as a transition from

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Speaker 3: music to doing research. So I think that I've gone

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Speaker 3: through phases of really digging my heels into the optimism

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Speaker 3: space and going, yes, yes I have I'm going to

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Speaker 3: think positively, but it never ultimately fit me. So I'm

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Speaker 3: guessing that that means that I'm kind of on that

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Speaker 3: pessimism scale somewhere below maybe I don't know, maybe just

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Speaker 3: slightly somewhere in the neutral space. I feel really okay

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Speaker 3: with that.

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Speaker 1: Now, and I think, yeah, so that's self awareness. Maybe

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Speaker 1: maybe I'm maybe you're kind of a realist, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe you're pragmatic.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: Let's so, yeah, I wanted to I want to talk

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Speaker 1: about the paper and then kind of we'll see where

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Speaker 1: we go. But the paper is called the Secret to

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Speaker 1: Success question mark the Psychology of Belief in manifestation. Give

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Speaker 1: us a snapshot of that research and that paper and

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Speaker 1: what you found if you would.

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Speaker 3: Sure think well, me and my colleagues, my advisors were

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Speaker 3: it was. It was something we were interested in looking at.

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Speaker 3: I didn't know if I was going to get to it.

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Speaker 3: During my PhD, we started by looking at we're looking

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Speaker 3: at multi level marketing organizations, you know, so am My

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Speaker 3: herbal Life, those kinds of companies, and looking at the

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Speaker 3: personal development side of those businesses and thinking, wow, you know,

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Speaker 3: there's a lot going on here as far as teaching

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Speaker 3: people how to think about success or how to think

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Speaker 3: about how to improve their business. And one of the

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Speaker 3: things that came out of that was definitely this focus

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Speaker 3: on manifestation and manifestation belief and even sort of going

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Speaker 3: into the religious space of the prosperity gospel, believing if

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Speaker 3: you invest a certain amount of money in your church

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Speaker 3: or your group that it'll re return to you. And

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Speaker 3: so we thought from that, I wanted to really, I know,

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Speaker 3: it hadn't been looked at a lot in any kind

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Speaker 3: of academic work. It hadn't really been looked at as

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Speaker 3: kind of law of attraction manifestation. And of course that

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Speaker 3: was what fifteen years ago, but it's been around for

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Speaker 3: longer than that, longer than the Secret and in various forms.

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Speaker 3: But I just thought, well, okay, how long has it been.

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Speaker 3: It's fifteen sixteen years, it's the secret, and should we

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Speaker 3: even look at the people still in to this. But

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Speaker 3: then I realized, look, the secret, so what thirty million

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Speaker 3: copies or something was huge, and maybe it would be

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Speaker 3: good to look at what's going on in the space now.

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Speaker 3: If you look at TikTok at the time, they've changed

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Speaker 3: their statistics strangely, but it was like thirty billion view

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Speaker 3: you know, views or swipes on how TikTok works, but

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Speaker 3: on manifestation content. You know, and so it's right manifestation

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Speaker 3: of you can you know, if you just put that

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Speaker 3: thought out there and you believe strongly and you act

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Speaker 3: like you're successful, that sends this energy out to the universe.

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Speaker 3: The universe hears that message and then sends that back

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Speaker 3: to you. And you've got to look for those opportunities

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Speaker 3: and make the best of those opportunities. And I've always

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Speaker 3: been interested in like the difference, like the fact that

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Speaker 3: there's these gray areas here, there's like all of these

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Speaker 3: elements of truth there. Yeah, you know, self fulfilling sort

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Speaker 3: of prophecies. Looking at the positive things helps you to

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Speaker 3: see more positive things in the future. And and of

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Speaker 3: course those things are kind of true. But then on

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Speaker 3: the other side, like could we be embracing a world

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Speaker 3: view like that? There's actually like quite a strong if

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Speaker 3: you really believed the book the Secret You've taken on

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Speaker 3: a I would say, a pretty extreme view of how

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Speaker 3: the world works. Every thought that you have is what

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Speaker 3: creates every experience. So we created a scale that measured this.

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Speaker 3: We work on basically in psychology, like scales that from

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Speaker 3: one to seven. You know, how much do you agree

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Speaker 3: with certain kinds of statements and we we thought, okay,

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Speaker 3: so people's believes different in this than they believe certain

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Speaker 3: types of things, whether you read The Secret or you've

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Speaker 3: read another kind of book, Think and grow Rich Napoleon

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Speaker 3: Hill if you you know. But we thought there's commonalities there.

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Speaker 3: The two commonalities being cosmic collaboration. So the idea that

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Speaker 3: you collaborate, I've got hard to is thelliteration. Yeah, hey,

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Speaker 3: I was in the apiration and personal power, which you know, hey,

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Speaker 3: we all know Anthi Robbins that kind of thing. So

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Speaker 3: basically that you either use you can harness that power

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Speaker 3: of cosmic collaboration by doing the visualization, doing the positive affirmations,

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Speaker 3: and we've found a whole bunch of things. So we

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Speaker 3: I mean, the first thing was that we were trying

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Speaker 3: to validate this scale, so making sure that the scale

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Speaker 3: action measure of what we thought it was going to

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Speaker 3: measure so we could use it in the future. But

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Speaker 3: then we started to look at so manifestors. People who

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Speaker 3: are scoring higher on this scale were more likely to

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Speaker 3: believe that they would be successful in the future, so

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Speaker 3: have that self confidence and optimism about the future, which

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Speaker 3: maybe we could say is could be a good thing.

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Speaker 3: But what we also did was then sort of look at, well,

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Speaker 3: where are people at in their lives as far as

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Speaker 3: maybe things like income and education and attainment, and sort

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Speaker 3: of using that as a bar of going okay, so

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Speaker 3: if you should we do manifest as people who are

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Speaker 3: stronger in manifestation, do they maintain that kind of positive

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Speaker 3: expectation about the future regardless of what their level of

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Speaker 3: kind of income or is and education, so regardless of

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Speaker 3: where they're at in that kind of process of attaining success.

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Speaker 3: So we ask them things about, you know, what's your

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Speaker 3: goals in life, and manifestos were more likely to say

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Speaker 3: they had goals for sort of being rich, being famous,

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Speaker 3: having being popular, having this kind of appealing image, and

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Speaker 3: so when we looked at that, they were more likely

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Speaker 3: to believe that they would achieve those things regardless of

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Speaker 3: when we control for income and things like that. So

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Speaker 3: it's this kind of level of success that's beyond whatever

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Speaker 3: restrictions that people have. So from that we thought, okay,

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Speaker 3: so that could be good for people maintaining hope and

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Speaker 3: all of that. But then on the other side, perhaps

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Speaker 3: that's kind of an unrealistic bar to put on yourself,

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Speaker 3: Like if you've got you're not you know, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: So we looked we were interested in that, curious about that.

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Speaker 3: We then looked at a particular type of We just

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Speaker 3: gave them a scenario, a fairly simple scenario, asked them

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Speaker 3: what do they think they're best at or what do

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Speaker 3: they like in their life that they value, And basically

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Speaker 3: then we said, okay, so imagine that you are doing

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Speaker 3: that thing that you value and you could earn three

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Speaker 3: hundred thousand dollars a year, have hundreds of thousands of fans,

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Speaker 3: and have that respect and admiration, and like, first of all,

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Speaker 3: we asked people, would would you how much would you

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Speaker 3: like that to be the case. Of course, everyone, with

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Speaker 3: most almost everyone in our samples said that they would

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Speaker 3: like that, But manifestos were more likely to rate themselves

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Speaker 3: as more likely to achieve that in their lifetime and

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Speaker 3: also achieve it quicker. So we asked them how many

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Speaker 3: years that we thought that, and so every every step

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Speaker 3: higher on the scale, they were more likely to say

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Speaker 3: that they would achieve that goal in less time. So,

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Speaker 3: considering it's a fairly it's going to be an unattainable

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Speaker 3: goal for most people, and we could kind of assume

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Speaker 3: from that that manifestos kind of had more of an

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Speaker 3: unrealistic expectation about achieving that kind of success. And then

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Speaker 3: you know, we went on to look at some financial

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Speaker 3: risk variables too, So we thought, well, if you have

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Speaker 3: a kind of belief in this sort of secret source

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Speaker 3: or extra power that you have be able to collaborate

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Speaker 3: with this kind of cosmic law of attraction, you're probably

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Speaker 3: more likely to feel that you could take more risks,

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Speaker 3: that things will come more easily to you, especially if

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Speaker 3: you're saying those kinds of informations to yourself. And so

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Speaker 3: we looked at we looked at basically some other some

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Speaker 3: risk variables, so manifests, people who scored higher on the scale,

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Speaker 3: more likely to say that they would be okay with

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Speaker 3: taking higher risks, more likely to endorse the idea that

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Speaker 3: you can get rich quick, more likely to have investments

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Speaker 3: in things like crypto rather than sort of standard stocks,

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Speaker 3: so those more you know, volatile but you know, I guess,

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Speaker 3: more gambling style investments. And then also the one that

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Speaker 3: really got the news attention was they were also more

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Speaker 3: likely to report that they'd been bankrupt in their in

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Speaker 3: their in their life. So yeah, that was basically what

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Speaker 3: we found in this first set of studies that we've

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Speaker 3: looked at manifestation. So it's some pros and some concept

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Speaker 3: could you.

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Speaker 1: So just for people who are going, what the fuck

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Speaker 1: is a manifesto? Could you you to me? Like, like

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Speaker 1: you said before, there's a bit of that, let's focus

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Speaker 1: on what we want. But I think if it ends there,

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Speaker 1: well that's a problem. But if that leads to a

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Speaker 1: decision and a plan and behavior and action and adaptation

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Speaker 1: and like, if there's a whole kind of strategy and

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Speaker 1: action plan that's that's executed, that's great. But it's more

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Speaker 1: about the just focus on it and it will happen.

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Speaker 1: Am I correct? So yes, to find what you're talking about.

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Speaker 1: So somebody who is a manifestor what do you mean

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Speaker 1: by that?

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Speaker 3: Okay, well, let me just let me read some of

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Speaker 3: the items that are in the scale. I feel that

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Speaker 3: that's the easiest way to describe what I've got. The

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Speaker 3: luxury of two screens here, so I can just read

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Speaker 3: some of those items.

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Speaker 1: It's great.

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Speaker 3: I don't well look, I mean, look, you look like

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Speaker 3: you've got a lot of screens there. I have to say,

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Speaker 3: there's a big screen behind you, so they're not as big.

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Speaker 3: Mine's not big, but you know I know how to

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Speaker 3: use them. Okay, So visualizing a successful outcome causes it

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Speaker 3: to be drawn closer to me. I can speak success,

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Speaker 3: success into existence through positive self talk, I'm more likely

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Speaker 3: to attract Let me think, go down here, I attract

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Speaker 3: success into my life with the help of the universe

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Speaker 3: or a higher power. The universe or a high paths

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Speaker 3: sends me. People are events to aid my success. To

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Speaker 3: attract success, I align myself with cosmic forces or energy.

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Speaker 3: If I think about success, achieving success, those thoughts alone

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Speaker 3: make success more likely. So what we're talking about is

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Speaker 3: if you really score high, we're very very high on

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Speaker 3: this scale, say that you're really believing that that is

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Speaker 3: the secret, right, that is the cause that's happening there.

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Speaker 3: And so if you if you believe that it's the

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Speaker 3: thing that causes success and you read something like this secret,

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Speaker 3: which we also obviously looked at whether people who score

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Speaker 3: high on the scale have read the secret, and obviously

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Speaker 3: they have more likely to have done that. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: you're going to believe that, you're more likely to be

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Speaker 3: able to sort of sit back and let the universe

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Speaker 3: do the work. Don't worry about the how it will

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Speaker 3: come together. And of course there's something that's maybe positive

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Speaker 3: about sometimes stepping back and just sort of saying, hey,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to hand things over. But as you're saying,

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Speaker 3: like if it sort of prevents you from taking certain

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Speaker 3: actions but this, Yeah, so that's definitely one thing that

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Speaker 3: we didn't focus. There's definitely more room for work in

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Speaker 3: that area. So maybe you'll do that, Craig for me,

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Speaker 3: that would be good. But yeah, I think that that's

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Speaker 3: probably going to be the case. They're more likely to

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Speaker 3: I've done a little bit of piloting of some studies

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Speaker 3: with this, and it seems to be the case that

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Speaker 3: they're going to be less likely to take those what

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Speaker 3: I called like like those instrumental actions, which are those

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Speaker 3: step by step, day by day, the effort you have

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Speaker 3: to make, but more likely to spend time on symbolic actions,

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Speaker 3: so the things that sort of are supposed to prove

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Speaker 3: to the universe. So things like dressing as your rich

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Speaker 3: self for you know, right, doing a vision board and

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Speaker 3: again on their own, those things are kind of harmless,

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Speaker 3: but if they're done, and it means that you're doing

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Speaker 3: more of that and spending a lot of time and

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Speaker 3: energy on that and less time on the sort of

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Speaker 3: hard yards of taking those actions. That there's probably you know,

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Speaker 3: that could sit to some extent explain what we found,

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Speaker 3: or there's some other things that probably explain it to

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Speaker 3: that I'm sure we'll get into.

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Speaker 1: There's probably, I mean, there would be some groups and

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Speaker 1: organizations that fucking hate your research. I hate to tell

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Speaker 1: you that'd be like do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: That's going to rub a few people the wrong way.

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Speaker 1: But how when people who are strongly towards the high

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Speaker 1: end of the manifesto scale, you know, they they tick

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Speaker 1: all the boxes, no pun intended. Are they very are

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Speaker 1: they open to this? Like when you say, look, I mean,

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Speaker 1: bottom line is in a nutshell, it doesn't work. Like

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Speaker 1: manifesting doesn't correlate with better outcomes, better income, better long

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Speaker 1: term results, better health. There's no evidence at all to

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Speaker 1: suggest that this strategy or this whatever ideology philosophy works.

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Speaker 1: Have you had any feedback from people when you kind

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Speaker 1: of present them with that.

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Speaker 3: I think I haven't experienced a lot of it publicly

403
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Speaker 3: or like directly to me, But I would say that

404
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Speaker 3: I probably don't present it exactly that way, And maybe

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Speaker 3: that's why I try to like, we're only this is

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Speaker 3: one state, like one journal article in so I don't

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Speaker 3: want to say that there's no advantages. And you know,

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Speaker 3: obviously to really look at that, you probably have to

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Speaker 3: look at over time, which we didn't do. We didn't

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Speaker 3: look at people's success over time. But I think that,

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Speaker 3: like what we were trying to do with this is

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Speaker 3: set up some questions moving forward, and some of those

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Speaker 3: questions are like what could be again, like what could

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Speaker 3: be causing the perhaps poorer financial outcomes in this The

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Speaker 3: fact that there is no sort of advantage necessarily except

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Speaker 3: for the fact that maybe it we do know it

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Speaker 3: makes people feel better. You make some more hopeful, and

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Speaker 3: it makes them and that can be important. But I

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Speaker 3: think just that it's not actually having the effect that

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Speaker 3: maybe these books are promising. Is I think I could

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Speaker 3: put my foot down and say that that it's not

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Speaker 3: you're not going to get what the secret is telling

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Speaker 3: you you're going to get. I'm happy to put my

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Speaker 3: flagging them on that.

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Speaker 1: It sounds a little bit like you and I have

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Speaker 1: had like similar components to our background, which is opening

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Speaker 1: the door on you know, self help and personal development,

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Speaker 1: and you know which you ended up doing a PhD

429
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Speaker 1: in psych the same as me and blah blah blah,

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Speaker 1: and you It's interesting because I do a lot of

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Speaker 1: like my main job is speaking, is corporate speaking, and

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Speaker 1: working in the public sector doing workshops and stuff. And

433
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 1: I was talking to somebody this morning and they literally

434
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,239
Speaker 1: asked me how, I how do you keep coming up

435
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 1: with new stuff? Right? And like I said, I don't.

436
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 1: And I said, like, they're pretty much there is no

437
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 1: new stuff like the stuff that I talk about. You know,

438
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 1: philosophers and stoics and theologians and psychologists and researchers have

439
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,439
Speaker 1: been talking about for hundreds and thousands of years. You know,

440
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 1: it's like there's there's nothing. You know, there's new ways

441
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 1: of sharing old ideas or old wisdom, you know, but

442
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,880
Speaker 1: it's like I'm just opening the door and pointing towards

443
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 1: you know. It's like, make hard decisions, do hard things.

444
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: You might get better results. Sitting on the couch crossing

445
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 1: your fingers not a great strategy.

446
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 3: You know.

447
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 1: Self awareness is a pretty good idea. Authenticity and humilistic humility,

448
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 1: and like in this space of personal development and you know,

449
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 1: self help, it's like for me, it's largely a regurgitation

450
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 1: of things. And especially maybe it's just some of the

451
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 1: people that I follow or connect with on social media platforms,

452
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 1: but you know, people who seem to be on a

453
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: level reinventing the metaphoric wheel and pretending that they invented

454
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: the actual wheel. It's like, no, dude, this is this

455
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: is just you're saying shit that has been said forever.

456
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 1: And I talked to some really big audiences, but I

457
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,400
Speaker 1: don't say anything that hasn't been said. I might say

458
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: it in my way, you know, and it's it's for

459
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 1: me unless the and I know I'm digressing here, but

460
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:02,439
Speaker 1: for me, unless the message is empowering the individual, not me.

461
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:03,439
Speaker 3: You know.

462
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: It's like I tell everybody constantly, I'm not the answer whatever.

463
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 1: I'm just a resource and I may or may not

464
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 1: be any value to you. That's more about you than me.

465
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 1: But empowering people to maybe lose the wishful thinking. It's

466
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 1: good to be positive, it's good to focus on what

467
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 1: you want to do, be create, change, but also perhaps

468
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 1: you know, going back to that pragmatic thing of going, well,

469
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: what is it that I want to create and change?

470
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 1: What do I want to learn and unlearn? And now

471
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: what decisions do I need to make, an action do

472
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 1: I need to take to truly manifest it myself. So

473
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,640
Speaker 1: the manifesting is a byproduct of my work and courage

474
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 1: and choices, rather than sitting on a couch thinking happy

475
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 1: or positive thoughts. No disrespect to anyone.

476
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, there's a few points there that I

477
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 3: could grab and go on go on about too, I feel,

478
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 3: but I want to I want to just say that

479
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 3: I agree that like that there's so much regurgitation and

480
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 3: and actually you find that fields like stagnate when there

481
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 3: is that, right, you're not actually creating anything new, and

482
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 3: people get very sort of sensitive about protecting their you know,

483
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 3: trademarked kind of system of success or whatever it is.

484
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: Let's call it. Let's call it pseudoscience.

485
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and it stagnates. And so it's strange, you know,

486
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 3: because that's one of the things that pushed me into

487
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 3: doing going to university. Actually because I I was training NLP,

488
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 3: so I was training neurone risky programming training trainers, and

489
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 3: and that that I was trying to I was creating

490
00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 3: content like I was creating the curriculum, and wanting to

491
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 3: really understand where these ideas came from. And it was

492
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 3: really frustrating to me because I had no way of

493
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 3: really getting back to and tracing these things back to

494
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 3: their roots. I read the books and then I read

495
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 3: you know, the Founders books, and they're just squabbling with

496
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 3: each other, and you know, the thing is that there

497
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 3: was just no systematic way of being able to understand

498
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 3: the roots of these ideas. And to me, that's why

499
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 3: it's I don't know, like we're doing sort of talking

500
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 3: shop here, but it's like it's hard to really be

501
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 3: able to say, look, this is what NLP is, or

502
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 3: this is what whatever modality it is that you do

503
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 3: if you can't actually sort of agree on the philosophies

504
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 3: behind this, or at least be able to talk to

505
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 3: each other and challenge each other on what the roots

506
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 3: of these things are and then be able to test those,

507
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 3: hopefully scientifically or at least sort of empirically or observation.

508
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 3: And so I think citing your sources is just a

509
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 3: bloody good idea. You know, I think you can do

510
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 3: it easily. You can just say I heard this from

511
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 3: Blah blah or you know, Marcus Aureli has said, and

512
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 3: it's done. You know, people can go do their own,

513
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 3: like you said, their own kind of research. So that

514
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 3: really piqued my interest when you said that, because that's

515
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 3: what I found from going to university. And I try

516
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 3: to tell my students too that, hey, like this is

517
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 3: not just the boring thing that we try to get

518
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 3: you to do, but like that is the way you learn,

519
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 3: that's the way you grow. And part of how you

520
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 3: do that is that you're held to a high standard

521
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 3: when you're doing a PhD. Right to like not reproducing

522
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 3: stuff that's been done before. The only way you know

523
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 3: whether or not. And hey, we don't even really know.

524
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 3: I'm sure someone's done some research or manifestation and called

525
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 3: it something different that I didn't find, but I know

526
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 3: that I'm at least one of the first that's just

527
00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 3: made this little contribution in my field because we can

528
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 3: trace back, do you know what I mean? So I

529
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 3: don't know. For me, that was really eye opening to

530
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 3: go to university and understand that that's those books in

531
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 3: the library and these millions of people writing things down.

532
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 3: The only way we can have a sort of way

533
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 3: of navigating that is to be able to understand how

534
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 3: to to cite our sources and how you do that

535
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 3: other links, you know.

536
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, And one of the that's actually fascinating. I want

537
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: to talk to you about NLP in a moment. But

538
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 1: one of the ever present realities too is when you

539
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: are truly intertwined with an ideology or a philosophy, or

540
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 1: a practice or a construct, then you get a sense

541
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 1: of your identity from that. Right, So when people have

542
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 1: certain strong beliefs, then logic and science goes out the

543
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: window because now we've got a motion wrapped around this idea.

544
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: And if you challenge my idea, you challenge my identity.

545
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 1: So fuck you and your science, you know what I mean.

546
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: And this is like one of the challenges. And I'm

547
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: not a very good scientist, right, I'm not bad. You're

548
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 1: way better than me, I'm sure. But one of the

549
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 1: ever present realities for me is that every scientist has

550
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: got bias. Like we all like to think where totally objective,

551
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 1: none of us are. We're all subjective, every including me.

552
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: Do I have bias? Of course? Am I emotional? Of course?

553
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 1: Do I get defensive? Of course? Have I got an ego?

554
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 3: Of course?

555
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: Do I want to be that? No? I don't, right,

556
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: But I think that acknowledging our humanity, not as a

557
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: flaw or a weakness, but just an ever present reality

558
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 1: and saying, look, you like you've just done this is

559
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 1: what I think. This is what I did. Maybe someone

560
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: else did some similar research called at something else. But

561
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: when we've got an incentive to produce a certain outcome,

562
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: which a lot of research has now because it's funded

563
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: and the people who are funding it on a certain outcome,

564
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: let's not open that door. But yeah, it's trying to

565
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:04,719
Speaker 1: find the absolute, unbiased truth at the bottom of all

566
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: of this stuff, which can be you know, I mean

567
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 1: that's a that's a minefield, you know, yeah, steps down

568
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: our high horse.

569
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 3: Go oh, I'd say that that that's a really interesting

570
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 3: point about truth and and you you, I think your

571
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 3: research that you said you've been doing with your PhD

572
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 3: s Thatt are touching on on that too, of being

573
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 3: able to look at the accuracy of certain beliefs that

574
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 3: we have. But I think it's some of us, you know.

575
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 3: I guess you could call it like in academica or

576
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 3: call it epistemology, right, but basically the idea that like,

577
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 3: how how do we judge whether something is true? And

578
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 3: we all do this in our own way, and some

579
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 3: of the stuff that I've looked at in my research

580
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 3: has been like that sometimes we have certain styles that

581
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 3: we that we gravitate towards on a spect like from

582
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 3: trusting our gut versus and being really quick and intuitive

583
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 3: with our decisions versus thinking through things really sort of

584
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 3: slowly and deeply. And it's not to say that one

585
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 3: is always good or one is always bad, and it's

586
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 3: not to say that we don't all naturally fluctuate and

587
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 3: use our hearts so to speak, and our heads sometimes,

588
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 3: but we tend to gravitate. It's almost like a personality

589
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 3: trait that we have where some of us will kind

590
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 3: of prefer to trust our gut and perhaps if we

591
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 3: have a belief by manifestation, it's almost like you're supposed to,

592
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,240
Speaker 3: you know, and so you you really develop that that, yes,

593
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 3: I do this, and those sort of trusting your gut

594
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 3: versus preferring to think deeply about things. There's been a

595
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 3: lot of research lately about how how that you know

596
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 3: that that trusting your your your gut when it comes

597
00:34:55,040 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 3: to complex issues is not always the greatest way to

598
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 3: make decisions. So especially like if you think I'll just

599
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 3: give you an obvious example. So if it's it's something

600
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 3: like finances, you know what I mean, or how well

601
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 3: your business is going, you know, at your at your

602
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,879
Speaker 3: three year mark or something like that. When you really yeah,

603
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 3: like you said, you're motivated towards wanting to think good

604
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 3: about this. It's not nice that to have the hard

605
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 3: conversation with yourself. And so we're going to all naturally

606
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 3: kind of go towards that intuitive sort of like, oh,

607
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 3: this is how I want to feel about this, this

608
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 3: is how I hope that things are going to go

609
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:36,799
Speaker 3: in the future. So I'm going to I'm just going

610
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 3: to brush over, you know, I'm just going to brush

611
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 3: over these these hard truths and prefer like and I

612
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,839
Speaker 3: think that you can find yourself in groups and in

613
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 3: around people or gurus that will encourage that in you

614
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 3: for And that's some of the recess I've looked at

615
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 3: with multi level marketing, where it's kind of used as

616
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 3: a tool to sort of stop you from thinking critically

617
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 3: about Hold on a min, I haven't made any money

618
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 3: in three years, and perhaps I've lost money, but you know,

619
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 3: maybe there's something not quite right about this model, or

620
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 3: you know, should I just keep listening to them telling

621
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 3: me that it's my fault because I'm not manifesting this enough,

622
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 3: you know. So, you know, I think it's important to

623
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 3: to kind of understand that we can fall in this

624
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 3: spectrum of I mean, we've got to try to find

625
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 3: a way of integrating our heart and our head. And

626
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 3: that's that, to me, is a really fascinating process moving

627
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 3: through life. You don't want to be a stone, you know.

628
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 3: But at the same time, you know, thinking sort of

629
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 3: intuitively and quickly helps us to buy our coffees and

630
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 3: do the automatic things every day, but not necessarily make

631
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 3: those big life decisions that that might be it might

632
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 3: be more helpful to really deliberate on and think about.

633
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. I'm fascinated with cults, Lucas, And

634
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:02,760
Speaker 1: to me, and I've done lots of pseudo research into cults,

635
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 1: and I listen to fucking countless podcasts on cults too

636
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 1: many when I should be doing actual research. But to me,

637
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 1: multi level marketing is like a cult of thought, a

638
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 1: cult of behavior. It's like it's like we were going

639
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 1: to tell you how to think. We don't want you

640
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 1: to think for yourself, going to tell you how to

641
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 1: think and what to think how to be, what to

642
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 1: focus on, what to pay attention to, and if you

643
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 1: have this thought, get rid of that thought because that's

644
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 1: bad thought. And so literally it's a form of mind

645
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 1: control and manipulation and coercion. And you know, like many

646
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 1: actual what we would call religious cults or spiritual cults.

647
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 1: I mean there are food cults, there are exercise cults,

648
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:44,359
Speaker 1: there are cultural cults where in order to belong in

649
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: that group, you need to think and be an act

650
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 1: and behave and align with that group. Otherwise, like if

651
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 1: you can't disagree with anything, or you're out of the group.

652
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 1: So the idea of critical thinking, as you that's truly

653
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 1: discouraged because you know, they're neither you're a sinner or

654
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: a backslider, or you're mistaken or you're a problem or

655
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 1: you know you've slipped out of the light into the

656
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 1: darkness or whatever metaphor you want to lose use. But

657
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 1: like I don't care what kind of group it is,

658
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 1: but if you are in any group and they don't

659
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: want you to question anything or think for yourself or

660
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:27,919
Speaker 1: ever be critical of anything that is like a fundamental

661
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 1: of that group, then you should get the fuck out

662
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 1: of that group. Like for me, that's just that's a

663
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: you know, there's there's alarm belts right there.

664
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree, I agree. Couldn't say it better. I mean,

665
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 3: that's that's how that's the advice that I give people

666
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 3: to like, even though my research isn't necessarily directly looking

667
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 3: at cults, I think, you know, I always just try

668
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 3: to say, look, if you're feeling like this real social

669
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 3: pressure to to have to think a certain way and

670
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 3: not think another way, and that that involves you not

671
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 3: thinking critically, not questioning, then that's a red flag.

672
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 1: And yeah, well I think also, I mean, if you

673
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: think for yourself too much, they can't control you. And

674
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 1: the idea of any cult is control and manipulation and

675
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 1: domination on the premise that you know, like think about

676
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 1: a lot of religious cults. You know, it's all a

677
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:25,359
Speaker 1: matter of semantics, really, religion cults, some religions I would

678
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 1: call cults. Some are maybe more mainstream and I don't know,

679
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,279
Speaker 1: but you know, think about like I grew up in

680
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 1: a cult that said if I behave a certain way,

681
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 1: not the way I should behave, I'm going to burn

682
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 1: in an eternal lake of fire forever. And I learned

683
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: that when I was six. Right now, when you're six

684
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,240
Speaker 1: years old and you get told if you do this thing,

685
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,359
Speaker 1: if you die in this state, and by the way,

686
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: you could die at any stage. You don't know when

687
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 1: you're going to die, Craig. And if you die with

688
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:56,360
Speaker 1: a mortal sin on your soul, this is what a

689
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 1: mortal sin is. Right then you're going to burn for

690
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 1: eternity in fire. Well, how fucking terrifying is that? And

691
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 1: what a great way to control a mind. And it's like,

692
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 1: this is not presented as an idea. This is presented

693
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 1: as a truth. And so I grew up being terrified

694
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 1: of dying, you know, with a sin. And it's like

695
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: fucking hell. And this is being imprinted into children's minds

696
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: by adults who don't go, oh, maybe this is not

697
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 1: a good idea to do this, And you know, the

698
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 1: few times where I would question things, and again, this

699
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 1: is just my story. And really it's not just about

700
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 1: religion everyone, it's just about thinking and programming. But it

701
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: happens to be in a religious context here. Yeah, I mean, wow,

702
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 1: talk about how to dominate somebody, make them terrified and

703
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 1: make them think that only you know the escape route.

704
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's terrible. I mean is it's terrible. And

705
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 3: the interesting thing as well when when you when you

706
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 3: like because I guess one of the ways that then

707
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 3: they'll just sort of come back is go, well, no,

708
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 3: but God God loves you, you know, or you're whatever

709
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 3: you're you know, and it's doing it because he loves you.

710
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,479
Speaker 3: And what a message. What a mixed message going on there.

711
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 3: But the same with positivity, I think that can happen,

712
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 3: and I guess with manifestation and things that happen in MLMs,

713
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 3: if you plaster over that with oh, yeah, but we're

714
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 3: giving you something to grab onto, so yeah, don't think negatively,

715
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:35,839
Speaker 3: but you know, don't be critical, but you know, we've

716
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 3: got all these tools and techniques to help you to

717
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 3: be positive. Then it almost feels like it's not why

718
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 3: why would people just want the best for me? You know,

719
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 3: they want me to succeed. They there's no, there's no,

720
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 3: they just don't want me to be negative. So it's

721
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 3: very hard to see through that veil and realize that

722
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:55,839
Speaker 3: it could be used as a form of especially when

723
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 3: it comes to positive thinking, it could be used as

724
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 3: a form of control, because it just feels like people

725
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:02,799
Speaker 3: have the best of intentions for you. They want you

726
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 3: to succeed, they want you to think happy thoughts, they

727
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 3: want you to you know, Whereas I think that it

728
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 3: can be that they've mortgaged. In a case of MLM,

729
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 3: they've they've remortgaged their you know, they mortgage themselves up

730
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 3: to the hill or paying rent just so they can

731
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 3: show you their expensive house and pretend that the MLM

732
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 3: was the thing that got them there. You know. So

733
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 3: I yeah, it's it's a I think when you when

734
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:36,439
Speaker 3: you see it's hard, but it's it's important to really think,

735
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 3: you know, do these people have the best intentions for me?

736
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 3: Or or what are they getting out of this? You know,

737
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 3: what's the vested interests here?

738
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:50,959
Speaker 1: And MLM is multi level marketing? Everyone just that's cool?

739
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 1: What's fucking MLM? Before we go, I want to ask

740
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:59,280
Speaker 1: you one thing. So I don't know what the answer

741
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,720
Speaker 1: to this is, but you know, ten years ago anyway,

742
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 1: I think most people, most actual researchers and psychologists or

743
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,720
Speaker 1: people in the psychology space kind of thought that NLP

744
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 1: New neurolinguistic programming was kind of bullshit, kind of a

745
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 1: pseudo science, not real, not really respected or taught in

746
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 1: universities or I don't know what what is it in

747
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, What regards is NLP held in these days.

748
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 3: I don't think it's much changed, but I think that

749
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:36,840
Speaker 3: that's the same kind of There was a set of

750
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 3: studies done and that's been the thing that people have

751
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 3: grabbed on to, I think, and sort of that it

752
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 3: sort of disproved an aspect of NLP, the eye accessing queues. Basically,

753
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,800
Speaker 3: when the idea that if you look in a certain direction,

754
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:55,319
Speaker 3: it means that you're visualizing or talking to yourself and

755
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 3: you can kind of not really people's minds, but get

756
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 3: a sense of what's going on behind what their words

757
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 3: are saying. And it was sort of they did some

758
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 3: studies on that and it sort of disproved it. But

759
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 3: it does also show you there's a slight bias towards

760
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 3: anything that's sort of not scientifically proven, and you find that,

761
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 3: then people will grab those studies and make a big

762
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 3: deal of them. But they weren't super high quality and

763
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 3: they weren't able to no one's replicated it, so I

764
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,799
Speaker 3: don't take much of that. I just think that the

765
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,759
Speaker 3: two founders really pissed off a lot of psychiatrists and

766
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,439
Speaker 3: psychologists with their rhetoric for years and years, it's never

767
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 3: going to be accepted. But of course, look, the NLP is.

768
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 3: The thing with these things that are sort of sudo

769
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 3: scientific is that there's grains of truth all over the place.

770
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:48,439
Speaker 3: There's great practitioners that are doing excellent work, and there's

771
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,919
Speaker 3: a lot that's helped me in my life, and I've

772
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 3: had great, great experiences with helping people. But if you're

773
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 3: a field that can't sort of define what it is

774
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 3: that you do and and what like, can't agree on

775
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 3: like what these techniques are or what these tools are,

776
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 3: and and you know, if you haven't got a kind

777
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 3: of real foundation therefore or be able to test your claims,

778
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:14,839
Speaker 3: then I don't know, you know, I can't. I can't

779
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 3: point to one thing and say that's NLP, that's an

780
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 3: NLP technique, or that's a I don't know, cognitive behavior

781
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:26,400
Speaker 3: therapy technique, or that's a you know, something from family therapy,

782
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 3: because it's and it's not NLP. I don't know, you know,

783
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 3: because we haven't really progressed much as a as a

784
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 3: as a field and being able to sort of test

785
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:38,840
Speaker 3: these things and set ourselves apart and say, well, let's

786
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 3: do I don't know, a randomized control trial. Well, we

787
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,759
Speaker 3: put out put our techniques to the test and be

788
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 3: able to see whether or not there's we can do

789
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 3: just as good or as better as the standard approaches

790
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 3: that are out there that would give you some kind

791
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 3: of sense of, like, you know, how things are. So

792
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 3: I don't know. To me that it's hard to make

793
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 3: a claim about whether it's great good or not. And

794
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 3: that's kind of why I walked. I guess I walked away.

795
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:09,280
Speaker 3: Let's be honest. I don't do it to be honest.

796
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 1: Let's be honest. Look, but I kind of understand because

797
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:18,720
Speaker 1: my first, my first foray, my absolute for first foray

798
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 1: into personal development was reading How to Win Friends and

799
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 1: Influence People, which was written in nineteen thirty six by

800
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 1: Dale Carnegie. But my first face to face live experience

801
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 1: was Tony Robbins, and I reluctantly went along as a

802
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 1: guest of some other people and fully expecting it to

803
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 1: be bullshit and hate it. And honestly I got lots

804
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 1: out of it, you know, like there was stuff that

805
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:48,720
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed, there was stuff that challenged my thinking.

806
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: There was like I realized that like I was very

807
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,839
Speaker 1: closed minded for the first hour or two it was

808
00:46:55,880 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: like a ten hour or twelve hour day. But half

809
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,399
Speaker 1: way through, I'm like, he actually is making lots of sense. Now,

810
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 1: love him or hate him, it doesn't matter, Like if

811
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 1: you can get past your bias and just tune into

812
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:12,360
Speaker 1: what's being said and try to have a level of

813
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:16,359
Speaker 1: objectivity and awareness. And you know, that was I then

814
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 1: went on, I would say a ten year kind of

815
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 1: journey of what people would typically call self help and

816
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 1: personal development. And some of it was garbage, and some

817
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 1: of it was gold, and some of it was somewhere

818
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 1: in the middle. And it's like, yes, some of it's

819
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 1: pseudo science. But I think for me, more than anything,

820
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 1: it got me to question, It got me to try things.

821
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: It got me curious, It got me excited, It got

822
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 1: me inspired, It got me to make decisions and change behavior.

823
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 3: You know.

824
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 1: So whether or not it was the book, or whether

825
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 1: or not it was me, or whether or not it

826
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 1: was the workshop or a bit of everything, it.

827
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:55,479
Speaker 3: Kind of doesn't matter.

828
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 1: Right, So, I think there are lots of tools that

829
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 1: may not even be highlight regarded by science that can

830
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: still be valuable, you know, in the right context for

831
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 1: the right person.

832
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, And I kind of feel that you can

833
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 3: usually use your common sense meter with it. You know

834
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 3: that if you someone just can describe to you what

835
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 3: it is that they're giving you this technique for and

836
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 3: what it can what it can do, and then you

837
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 3: try it and it works for you, then then it's great.

838
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 3: And I, like you, have definitely spent my life with

839
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 3: a kind of growth oriented approach and wanting to grow

840
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 3: and learn. And I love learning and that includes learning

841
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 3: about myself. I think the thing for me that I

842
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 3: guess I'm coming at it more from a thinking that,

843
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,799
Speaker 3: like for consumers, you've got to do what works for

844
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 3: you. You don't have all day to be spending rummaging through

845
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 3: all the scientific literature on something. You just have to trust.

846
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:02,399
Speaker 3: I guess what you're so, you need to trust other

847
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 3: people to help you to like I guess, that's what

848
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 3: you do, That's what I do. We're trying to be

849
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 3: the leaders in I guess, the thought leaders whatever. I

850
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:15,960
Speaker 3: don't like those terms and change makers, thought leaders there,

851
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 3: you know, but you know you're trying to disseminate and

852
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 3: put together all of this wisdom and knowledge and communicated

853
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 3: in a way so that people can then take that

854
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 3: and make it meaningful to them. So I guess when

855
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:33,880
Speaker 3: for the consumers of that, yeah, they need to be

856
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 3: able to trust that the people at that other level

857
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:41,560
Speaker 3: where the communicators of that information are I guess doing

858
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 3: a good job of thinking about this stuff. And so

859
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 3: I guess I'm more critical of that the industry, And

860
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:51,240
Speaker 3: that's kind of where I'm you know, I'm not critical

861
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 3: of anyone's individual journey, but I'm kind of critical of

862
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 3: the industry for not for they Because if you're doing

863
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 3: this professionally and it's your life's wor well that's what

864
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 3: you want to do, and you're making these massive promises

865
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:07,399
Speaker 3: to people, then you should be being able to think

866
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 3: about these things a bit deeper than and not you know,

867
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:16,640
Speaker 3: regurgitating the same sort of simplistic ideas about and so

868
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 3: I guess, yeah, I'm on a bit of a mission

869
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 3: to try to wake people, wake practitioners up, I think

870
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 3: and go, you don't have to go to university, you

871
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:26,400
Speaker 3: don't have to spend I have to spend eight years

872
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 3: to get in my PhD. Like I know, not everyone

873
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 3: has that time or inclination, And we don't have to

874
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 3: do that, but I think we can all get better at,

875
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:39,400
Speaker 3: you know, being able to be a bit more nuanced

876
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 3: and being able to help people to understand what's going

877
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:46,800
Speaker 3: to work best for them. I guess so awesome.

878
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 1: Well, but it's been a pleasure meeting you, mate. I've

879
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:51,840
Speaker 1: got the name for you. Have you written a book yet?

880
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 3: I'm halfway through a couple so they're just sitting there

881
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 3: at the moment, in the middle of semester.

882
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 1: I've got a title for you. You ready, Yes, the

883
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 1: title is There is No Secret. But ah, and you

884
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 1: had an exact same cover design and then you and

885
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 1: you just put above in little words, there is no

886
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 1: How do people find you? How do people find you

887
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:19,320
Speaker 1: and follow you and connect with you? Doc?

888
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, good question. You know I spend so much

889
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 3: time online looking and lurking and but I'm so not active.

890
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 3: But you could go to that horrible cesspool that is

891
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 3: x and find me there mainly posting a little bit

892
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 3: about my research and some ironic memes. That's about it.

893
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:43,479
Speaker 3: But that's doctor Lucas Dixon. So l U C A

894
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 3: S D A x O N and LinkedIn And if

895
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 3: you go to University of Queensland and pot my name

896
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:55,239
Speaker 3: in the search. You can find me there and get

897
00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 3: in contact. Love to talk to people. I've found that

898
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 3: through this whole process that speaking to people who aren't

899
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 3: academics has been probably the most rewarding part. I've got

900
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 3: lots of insights and people's personal experiences with this, whether

901
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 3: they're still into manifestation or into emilms or not, has

902
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 3: been like super rewarding. And yeah, so happy to chat

903
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 3: with people about anything.

904
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 1: Really well, mate, we'll say goodbye fair but for the moment, Lucas,

905
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 1: thanks for being on the new project. It was great.

906
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 1: I appreciate you.

907
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:32,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, cheers, Crag, Thanks Tiffany, Thanks Deer, thank you