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Speaker 1: I'll get a team. It's it's me, It's Quig Anthony

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Speaker 1: harpert'z the you projected Tiffany and Cook over there at

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Speaker 1: typ Central, uh and Lucas. We're going to go with Andrew.

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Speaker 1: We'll find out a minute. Lucas Andra Dixon, I made

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Speaker 1: that up.

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Speaker 2: It could be.

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Speaker 1: I bet it starts with a vow. Not sure, TIV.

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Speaker 1: Why are you wearing glasses?

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Speaker 3: Because I wanted to fit in halps peer pressure? Really? Yeah, well,

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Speaker 3: secure Lucas looked really intelligent. You've got you RWs And

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Speaker 3: I was like.

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Speaker 1: Let's call him doctor Lucas because he's a fresh doctor.

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Speaker 1: He's like about six months a doctor, so we're going

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Speaker 1: to call him that. And he's afreshy. And when you're

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Speaker 1: a freshy, I mean, I don't know. I've never been one,

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Speaker 1: but maybe one day, who knows. Tif How things over

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Speaker 1: on planet tiff.

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Speaker 3: Things are fabulous. Although I've got my hot lucky blanket

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Speaker 3: on my legs and instead of roasting, and I don't

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Speaker 3: know why I'm not turning it off, But you know,

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Speaker 3: maybe one of you doctors can or almost doctors can.

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Speaker 1: Well there's a real doctor. There's a real doctor and

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Speaker 1: a not a close doctor, so just a bullshitter. So

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Speaker 1: and I don't think he's that kind of doctor, although

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Speaker 1: he might have some kind of psychological interpretation of what

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Speaker 1: the fuck you're doing. Hey, Lucas, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 4: Pleasure to be here, Craig, and thanks Tiffany.

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Speaker 1: Wow, thanks for coming to playmatee. Now let me tell

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Speaker 1: everyone how you and I. I was telling you before

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Speaker 1: we went live. I typically don't invite guests on the show,

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Speaker 1: it's not my job, but Melissa and Tiff tend to

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Speaker 1: one do that and to be much better at that

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Speaker 1: than me. And I was reading a paper when I

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Speaker 1: should have been reading other papers. So I blame you

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Speaker 1: for my lack of productivity with my own research.

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Speaker 2: I'll take them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but you wrote a paper called the Secret

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Speaker 1: to Success, the Psychology of belief in manifestation. Is that

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Speaker 1: the oh no, no, no, this was the one. No,

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Speaker 1: that was it. Yeah, that was the paper, and and

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, this is so good. So I want

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Speaker 1: to dive into that, but I just want to give you.

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Speaker 4: You didn't say it, whether you didn't say it with

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Speaker 4: the question mark tone in your voice. For those of

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Speaker 4: the podcasts, that's the secrets success question mark.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the psychology of belief in manifestation or perfect You

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Speaker 1: know those people who went down the old secret rabbit

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Speaker 1: hole about a decade ago, They're just going to sit

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Speaker 1: on the couch and manifest fucking excellence. How's that going anyway?

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Speaker 1: So here's a bit of a snapshot. Doctor Lucas Dixon,

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Speaker 1: graduated with a PhD in Social and consumer psychology from

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Speaker 1: the UQ Business School in twenty twenty three, investigates the

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Speaker 1: psychology of the success industry. I fucking love this, including

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Speaker 1: the marketing and consumption of small business and solo preneur

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Speaker 1: business education. He also investigates psychological factors that contribute to

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Speaker 1: participating in multi level marketing and get rich quick schemes.

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Speaker 1: Having run his own small business, Lucas aims to reduce fraud,

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Speaker 1: misleading marketing, and improve offerings in this space. Are people,

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Speaker 1: let's start with, are people just as gullible now as

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Speaker 1: they were ten years ago, twenty years ago? Are they

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Speaker 1: more gullible or are we more discerning? Or don't you know, doc, Oh.

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Speaker 4: That's a good question, Craig, But I couldn't answer that really,

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Speaker 4: But I look, my sneaking suspicion is we we're all

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Speaker 4: gullible if people say the right things to us at

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Speaker 4: the right time. Some perhaps more gullible than others. If

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Speaker 4: we I mean, I guess as psychologists or whatever, we

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Speaker 4: will break that down and think, well, what are the

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Speaker 4: aspects of gullibility. So it's not just one thing that

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Speaker 4: kind of makes us us gullible. But I do feel

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Speaker 4: that we're in a unique time for this kind of

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Speaker 4: being persuaded, being you know, being I guess hypnotizable in

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Speaker 4: a way because of the factors that this new media

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Speaker 4: landscape is not something we've experienced before. AI is going

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Speaker 4: to be super interesting. They see what happens there. We're

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Speaker 4: just not very great at times in making decisions with

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Speaker 4: our heads.

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Speaker 2: Or working out how to do that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess also, like you know, to quote many people,

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Speaker 1: we love the idea of two minute abs, right love.

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Speaker 1: We love the idea of reward without work. We love

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Speaker 1: the idea of the destination without the journey you know,

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Speaker 1: fill in the blank. The instant gratification, the quick fix,

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Speaker 1: the magic pill, the silver bullet, like all that stuff

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Speaker 1: is fucking attractive. And if you can get someone to

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Speaker 1: believe that that might be real, which is not that

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Speaker 1: hard for people who don't want to do the work.

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Speaker 1: Then bibbity bobby boo ka ching you've got a sale.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, exactly, No, I agree, And it's one of

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Speaker 4: the it's you know, that's I guess something I can

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Speaker 4: speak to that we've we have found that, you know,

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Speaker 4: the more you believe that, the more you believe that

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Speaker 4: there really are get rich quick schemes, the more you're

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Speaker 4: likely to believe the next one. You know, And so

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Speaker 4: I guess the more that you're around groups and people

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Speaker 4: and consuming content that is kind of reinforcing that message.

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Speaker 4: And it's easy to see why you might believe that

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Speaker 4: when you can hear people's stories of a success that

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Speaker 4: are kind of like got that hero's journey, or you know,

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Speaker 4: they're sort of leaving out all the hard bits, or

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Speaker 4: you know, they're just kind of doing their their best

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Speaker 4: to sort of tell an appealing story about how we've

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Speaker 4: triumphed over some adversity. But of course life's not that simple,

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Speaker 4: and there's so much that maybe we don't even know

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Speaker 4: that's contributed to our success. But those simplistic narratives are

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Speaker 4: great for TikTok, great for YouTube, and great for and

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Speaker 4: of course they can be really motivational, but also kind

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Speaker 4: of leave us down this path of feeling like success

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Speaker 4: should be a quick or easy or a linear process

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Speaker 4: of just climbing a ladder, and it's I don't know

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Speaker 4: about you, but it hasn't been my experience.

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Speaker 1: Well yeah, I mean, my background, as I told you briefly,

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Speaker 1: was working with thousands of people helping them change their body.

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Speaker 1: And you know, one of the funny things is, or

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Speaker 1: one of the common things I guess is somebody wakes

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Speaker 1: up one day. Let's just pick someone who's forty and

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Speaker 1: they've been in and out of shape for a lot

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Speaker 1: of their life, which was my story for a long time,

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Speaker 1: in and out of shape, fit, unfit, big, small, overweight,

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Speaker 1: fucking you know, ripped and rock hard everything. And then

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Speaker 1: you know, one day people wake up and they want

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Speaker 1: to undo forty years of kind of shitty thinking and

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Speaker 1: choosing and behaving in four weeks, you know, and to

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Speaker 1: create a new operating system. And all of that is great,

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Speaker 1: but ye know, for so like when we talk specifically

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Speaker 1: about the idea of physical transformation, you know, it's a

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Speaker 1: physical process, but it's also such a psychological, emotional, sociological

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Speaker 1: journey and like, you know, being able to step up

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Speaker 1: and own up and say, well, I really do want

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Speaker 1: to be successful. I do want to create that outcome,

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Speaker 1: but I also need to acknowledge that it might not

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Speaker 1: be fun or quick or easy or painless, you know,

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Speaker 1: because that the two minute ads the silver bullet, that

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Speaker 1: stuff is hugely appealing, right, Yeah, I.

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Speaker 4: Agree, And it's it's also you know, really appealing for

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Speaker 4: us perfectionists out there, and when I'm sure you've spoken

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Speaker 4: a lot about that in your fifteen hundred episodes, and

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Speaker 4: it's one of those things that if you expect you're

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Speaker 4: going to you want to have high expectations of yourself,

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Speaker 4: but you know, to hold yourself to that that I

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Speaker 4: guess to have some kind of degree of self esteem

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Speaker 4: and self confidence and want to to really raise that bar,

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Speaker 4: but at the same time kind of realize we're not

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Speaker 4: always going to hit it and not let that be

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Speaker 4: the thing that's advotages you just because you're not you're

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Speaker 4: not winning at the degree or the rate that you

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Speaker 4: thought you were going to to be doing. And sometimes, hey,

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Speaker 4: I hope that sometimes we could surprise ourselves. I always

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Speaker 4: say to my students, you know, I try to keep

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Speaker 4: my expectations in check, and then I'm just pleasantly surprised.

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Speaker 4: I love being surprised when things go well. But maybe

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Speaker 4: it's because I'm a natural pessimist.

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Speaker 2: I don't know you.

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Speaker 1: Are you truly a natural?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 1: Is that how you're kind of wired? Look?

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Speaker 5: I mean that's such a It's interesting, I think I

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Speaker 5: when I become too optimistic, which I can do so

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Speaker 5: I can be influenced and I can get.

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Speaker 2: Caught up in imagination.

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Speaker 4: My background was as a musician, that was my first career,

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Speaker 4: and so I guess I have a creative, artistic mind

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Speaker 4: and I've definitely had I've been through sort of the

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Speaker 4: self help and personal development industry side of things as

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Speaker 4: well as a consumer of that, from probably when I

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Speaker 4: was maybe sixteen seventeen all the way up until sort

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Speaker 4: of being a practitioner as a coach and as a

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Speaker 4: hypnotherapist for as a transition from music to doing research.

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Speaker 4: So I think that I've gone through phases of really

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Speaker 4: digging my heels into the optimism space and going, yes,

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Speaker 4: yes I have I'm going to think positively, but it

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Speaker 4: never ultimately fit me. So I'm guessing that that means

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Speaker 4: that I'm kind of on that pessimism scale somewhere.

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Speaker 2: Below maybe I don't know, maybe just slightly somewhere in

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Speaker 2: the neutral space.

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Speaker 4: I feel really okay with that now, and I think, yeah,

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Speaker 4: so that's self awareness.

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Speaker 1: Maybe maybe I'm Maybe you're kind of a realist, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe you're pragmatic. You know. Let's so, yeah, I wanted

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Speaker 1: to I want to talk about the paper and then

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Speaker 1: kind of we'll see where we go. But the paper

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Speaker 1: is called The Secret to Success question mark the Psychology

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Speaker 1: of Belief in manifestation. Give us a snapshot of that

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Speaker 1: research and that paper and what you found if you would.

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Speaker 4: Sure think well, me and my colleagues, my advisors were

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Speaker 4: it was.

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Speaker 2: It was something we were interested in looking at. I

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Speaker 2: didn't know if I was going to get to it.

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Speaker 4: During my PhD, we started by looking at we're looking

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Speaker 4: at multi level marketing organizations, you know, so Amway, Herbal Life,

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Speaker 4: those kinds of companies, and looking at the personal development

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Speaker 4: side of those businesses and thinking, wow, you know, there's

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Speaker 4: a lot going on here as far as teaching people

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Speaker 4: how to think about success or how to think about

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Speaker 4: how to improve their business. And one of the things

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Speaker 4: that came out of that was definitely this focus on

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Speaker 4: manifestation and manifestation belief and even sort of going into

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Speaker 4: the religious space of the prosperity gospel, believing if you

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Speaker 4: invest a certain amount of money in.

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Speaker 2: Your church or your group that it'll re return to you.

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Speaker 4: And so we thought from that, I wanted to really,

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Speaker 4: I know, it hadn't been looked at a lot in

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Speaker 4: any kind of academic work. It hadn't really been looked

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Speaker 4: at as kind of law of attraction manifestation. And of

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Speaker 4: course that was what fifteen years ago, but it's been

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Speaker 4: around for longer than that, longer than the Secret and

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Speaker 4: in various forms. But I just thought, well, okay, how

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Speaker 4: long has it been. It's fifteen sixteen years, it's the secret,

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Speaker 4: and should we even look at it?

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Speaker 2: People still in to this.

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Speaker 4: But then I realized, look, the secret so of what

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Speaker 4: thirty million copies or something was huge, and maybe it

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Speaker 4: would be good to look at what's going on in

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Speaker 4: the space now. If you look at TikTok at the time,

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Speaker 4: they've changed their statistics strangely, but it was like thirty

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Speaker 4: billion view you know, views or swipes on how TikTok works,

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Speaker 4: but on manifestation content, you know, and so it's right

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Speaker 4: manifestation of you can you know, if you just put

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Speaker 4: that thought out there and you believe strongly and you

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Speaker 4: act like you're successful, that sends this energy out to

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Speaker 4: the universe. The universe hears that message and then sends

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Speaker 4: that back to you. And you've got to look for

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Speaker 4: those opportunities and make the best of those opportunities. And

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Speaker 4: I've always been interested in like the difference, like the

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Speaker 4: fact that there's these gray areas here, there's like all

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Speaker 4: of these elements of truth there. Yeah, you know, self

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Speaker 4: fulfilling sort of prophecies. Looking at the positive things helps

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Speaker 4: you to see more positive things in the future. And

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Speaker 4: and of course those things are kind of true. But

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Speaker 4: then on the other side, like could we be embracing

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Speaker 4: a world view like that? There's actually like quite a

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Speaker 4: strong if you really believed the book The Secret, You've

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Speaker 4: taken on a I would say, a pretty extreme view

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Speaker 4: of how the world works. Every thought that you have

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Speaker 4: is what creates every experience.

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Speaker 2: So we created a scale that measured this.

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Speaker 4: We work on basically in psychology, like scales that from

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Speaker 4: one to seven. You know, how much do you agree

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Speaker 4: with certain kinds of statements, and we we thought, okay,

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Speaker 4: so people's believes different in this than they believe certain

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Speaker 4: types of things, whether you read The Secret or you've

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Speaker 4: read another kind of book, Think and grow rich Napoleon

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Speaker 4: Hill if.

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Speaker 2: You you know.

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Speaker 4: But we thought there's commonalities there, the two commonalities being

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Speaker 4: cosmic collaboration. So the idea that you collaborate, I've got

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Speaker 4: hard to is the alliteration.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, hey, I was in the apiration.

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Speaker 4: And personal power, which you know, hey, we all know

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Speaker 4: Anthony Robbins that kind of thing. So basically that you

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Speaker 4: either use you can harness that power of cosmic collaboration

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Speaker 4: by doing the visualization, doing the positive affirmations, and we've

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Speaker 4: found a whole bunch of things, so we I mean,

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Speaker 4: the first thing was that we were trying to validate

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Speaker 4: this scale, so making sure that the scale action measure

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Speaker 4: of what we thought it was going to measure so

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Speaker 4: we could use it in the future. But then we

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Speaker 4: started to look at so manifestors. People who are scoring

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Speaker 4: higher on this scale were more likely to believe that

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Speaker 4: they would be successful in the future, so have that

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Speaker 4: self confidence and optimism about the future, which maybe we

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Speaker 4: could say is could be a good thing. But what

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Speaker 4: we also did was then sort of look at, well,

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Speaker 4: where are people at in their lives as far as

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Speaker 4: maybe things like income and education and attainment, and sort

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Speaker 4: of using that as a bar of going okay, so

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Speaker 4: if you should we do manifest as people who are

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Speaker 4: stronger in manifestation, do they maintain that kind of positive

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Speaker 4: expectation about the future regardless of what their level of

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Speaker 4: kind of income or is and education, so regardless of

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Speaker 4: where they're at in that kind of process of attaining success.

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Speaker 4: So we ask them things about, you know, what's your

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Speaker 4: goals in life, and manifestos were more likely to say

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Speaker 4: they had goals for sort of being rich, being famous,

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Speaker 4: having being popular, having this kind of appealing image, and

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Speaker 4: so when we looked at that, they were more likely

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Speaker 4: to believe that they would achieve those things regardless of

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Speaker 4: when we control for income and things like that. So

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Speaker 4: it's this kind of level of success that's beyond whatever

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Speaker 4: restrictions that people have.

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Speaker 2: So from that we.

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Speaker 4: Thought, okay, so that could be good for people maintaining

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Speaker 4: hope and all of that. But then on the other side,

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Speaker 4: perhaps that's kind of an unrealistic bar to put on yourself,

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Speaker 4: like if you've got you're not you know, I don't know.

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Speaker 4: So we looked we were interested in that, curious about that.

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Speaker 4: We then looked at a particular type of We just

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Speaker 4: gave them a scenario, a fairly simple scenario, asked them

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Speaker 4: what do they think they're best at or what do

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Speaker 4: they like in their life that they value, And basically

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Speaker 4: then we said, okay, so imagine that you are doing

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Speaker 4: that thing that you value and you could earn three

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Speaker 4: hundred thousand dollars a year, have hundreds of thousands of fans,

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Speaker 4: and have that respect and admiration, and like, first of all,

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Speaker 4: we asked people, would would you how much would you

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Speaker 4: like that to be the case. Of course, everyone, with

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Speaker 4: most almost everyone in our samples said that they would

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Speaker 4: like that, But manifestos were more likely to rate themselves

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Speaker 4: as more likely to achieve that in their lifetime and

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Speaker 4: also achieve it quicker.

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Speaker 2: So we asked them how many years that we thought that, and.

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Speaker 4: So every every step higher on the scale, they were

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Speaker 4: more likely to say that they would achieve that goal

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Speaker 4: in less time.

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Speaker 2: So, considering it's a fairly.

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Speaker 4: It's going to be an unattainable goal for most people,

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Speaker 4: and we could kind of assume from that that manifestos

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Speaker 4: kind of had more of an unrealistic expectation about.

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Speaker 2: Achieving that kind of success.

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Speaker 4: And then you know, we went on to look at

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Speaker 4: some financial risk variables too, So we thought, well, if

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Speaker 4: you have a kind of belief in this sort of

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Speaker 4: secret source or extra power that you have be able

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Speaker 4: to collaborate with this kind of cosmic law of attraction,

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Speaker 4: you're probably more likely to feel that you could take

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Speaker 4: more risks, that things will come more easily to you,

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Speaker 4: especially if you're saying those kinds of informations to yourself.

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Speaker 2: And so we looked at.

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Speaker 4: We looked at basically some other some risk variables, so manifests,

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Speaker 4: people who scored higher on the scale, more likely to

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Speaker 4: say that they would be okay with taking higher risks,

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Speaker 4: more likely to endorse the idea that you can get

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Speaker 4: rich quick, more likely to have investments in things like

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Speaker 4: crypto rather than sort of standard stocks, so those more

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Speaker 4: you know, volatile but you know, I guess, more gambling

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Speaker 4: style investments. And then also the one that really got

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Speaker 4: the news attention was they were also more likely to

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Speaker 4: report that they'd been bankrupt in their in their in

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Speaker 4: their life, So yeah, that was basically what we found

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Speaker 4: in this first set of studies that we've looked at manifestation.

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Speaker 2: So it's some pros and some concept could you.

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Speaker 1: So just for people who are going, what the fuck

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Speaker 1: is a manifesto? Could you you to me? Like, like

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Speaker 1: you said before, there's a bit of that. Let's focus

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Speaker 1: on what we want. But I think if it ends there,

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Speaker 1: well that's a problem. But if that leads to a

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Speaker 1: decision and a plan and behavior and action and adaptation

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Speaker 1: and like, if there's a whole kind of strategy and

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Speaker 1: action plan that's that's executed, that's great. But more about

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Speaker 1: the just focus on it and it will happen. Am

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Speaker 1: I correct? So yes, to find what you're talking about.

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Speaker 1: So somebody who is a manifestor what do you mean

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Speaker 1: by that?

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Speaker 4: Okay, well, let me just let me read some of

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Speaker 4: the items that are in the scale. I feel that

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Speaker 4: that's the easiest way to describe what I've got. The

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Speaker 4: luxury of two screens here, so I can just read

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Speaker 4: some of those items.

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Speaker 1: It's great.

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Speaker 4: I don't well look, I mean, look, you look like

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Speaker 4: you've got a lot of screens there. I have to say,

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Speaker 4: there's a big screen behind you. So they're not as big.

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Speaker 4: Mine's not big, but you know I know how to

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Speaker 4: use them. Okay, So visualizing a successful outcome causes it

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Speaker 4: to be drawn closer to me. I can speak success,

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Speaker 4: success into existence through positive self talk, I'm more likely

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Speaker 4: to attract Let me think, go down here, I attract

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Speaker 4: success into my life with the help of the universe

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Speaker 4: or a higher power. The universe or a high paths

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Speaker 4: sends me. People are events to aid my success. To

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Speaker 4: attract success, I align myself with cosmic forces or energy.

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Speaker 4: If I think about success, achieving success, those thoughts alone

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Speaker 4: make success more likely. So what we're talking about is

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Speaker 4: if you really score high, we're very very high on

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Speaker 4: this scale, say that you're really believing that that is

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Speaker 4: the secret, right, that is the cause that's happening there.

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Speaker 4: And so if you if you believe that it's the

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Speaker 4: thing that causes success and you read something like this secret,

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Speaker 4: which we also obviously looked at whether people who score

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Speaker 4: high on the scale have read the secret, and.

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Speaker 2: Obviously they have more likely to have done that.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, you're going to believe that, you're more likely

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Speaker 4: to be able to sort of sit back and let

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Speaker 4: the universe do the work.

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Speaker 2: Don't worry about the how it will come together.

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Speaker 4: And of course there's something that's maybe positive about sometimes

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Speaker 4: stepping back and just sort of saying, hey, I'm going

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Speaker 4: to hand things over. But as you're saying, like if

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Speaker 4: it sort of prevents you from taking certain actions but this, Yeah,

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Speaker 4: so that's definitely one thing that we didn't focus. There's

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Speaker 4: definitely more room for work in that area. So maybe

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Speaker 4: you'll do that, Craig for me, that would be good.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, I think that that's probably going to be

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Speaker 4: the case. They're more likely to I've done a little

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Speaker 4: bit of piloting of some studies with this, and it

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Speaker 4: seems to be the case that they're going to be

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Speaker 4: less likely to take those what I called like like

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Speaker 4: those instrumental actions, which are those step by step, day

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Speaker 4: by day, the effort you have to make, but more

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Speaker 4: likely to spend time on symbolic actions, so the things

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Speaker 4: that sort of are supposed to prove to the universe.

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Speaker 4: So things like dressing as your rich self for you know, right,

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Speaker 4: doing a vision board and again on their own, those

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Speaker 4: things are kind of harmless, but if they're done, and

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Speaker 4: it means that you're doing more of that and spending

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Speaker 4: a lot of time and energy on that and less

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Speaker 4: time on the sort of hard yards of taking those

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Speaker 4: actions that there's probably you know, that could sit to

398
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Speaker 4: some extent explain what we found, or there's some other

399
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Speaker 4: things that probably explain it to that I'm sure we'll

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Speaker 4: get into.

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Speaker 1: There's probably, I mean, there would be some groups and

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Speaker 1: organizations that fucking hate your research. I hate to tell

403
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Speaker 1: you that'd be like do you know what I mean?

404
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Speaker 1: That's going to rub a few people the wrong way.

405
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Speaker 1: But how when people who are strongly towards the high

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Speaker 1: end of the manifesto scale, you know, they they tick

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Speaker 1: all the boxes, no pun intended. Are they very are

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Speaker 1: they open to this? Like when you say, look, I mean,

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Speaker 1: bottom line is in a nutshell, it doesn't work. Like

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Speaker 1: manifesting doesn't correlate with better outcomes, better income, better long

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Speaker 1: term results, better health. There's no evidence at all to

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Speaker 1: suggest that this strategy or this whatever ideology philosophy works.

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Speaker 1: Have you had any feedback from people when you kind

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Speaker 1: of present them with that.

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Speaker 4: I think I haven't experienced a lot of it publicly

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Speaker 4: or like directly to me, but I would say that

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Speaker 4: I probably don't.

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Speaker 2: Present it exactly that way and maybe that's.

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Speaker 4: Why I try to like, we're only this is one state,

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Speaker 4: like one journal article in so I don't want to

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Speaker 4: say that there's no advantages. And you know, obviously to

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Speaker 4: really look at that, you probably have to look at

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Speaker 4: over time, which we didn't do.

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Speaker 2: We didn't look at people's success over time.

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Speaker 4: But I think that, like what we were trying to

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Speaker 4: do with this is set up some questions moving forward,

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Speaker 4: and some of those questions are like what could be again,

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Speaker 4: like what could be causing the perhaps poorer financial outcomes

429
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Speaker 4: in this The fact that there is no sort of

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Speaker 4: advantage necessarily except for the fact that maybe it we

431
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Speaker 4: do know it makes people feel better. You make some

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Speaker 4: more hopeful, and it makes them and that can be important.

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Speaker 4: But I think just that it's not actually having the

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Speaker 4: effect that maybe these books are promising. Is I think

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Speaker 4: I could put my foot down and say that that

436
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,719
Speaker 4: it's not you're not going to get what the secret

437
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:51,920
Speaker 4: is telling you you're going to get. I'm happy to

438
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 4: put my flagging.

439
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,239
Speaker 1: Them on that. It sounds a little bit like you

440
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:02,879
Speaker 1: and I have had like similar components to our background,

441
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 1: which is opening the door on you know, self help

442
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 1: and personal development and you know, which you ended up

443
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:10,959
Speaker 1: doing a PhD in psych the same as me, and

444
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. And you It's interesting because I do

445
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 1: a lot of like my main job is speaking, is

446
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 1: corporate speaking, and working in the public sector doing workshops

447
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,879
Speaker 1: and stuff. And I was talking to somebody this morning

448
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 1: and they literally asked me how, I how do you

449
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,680
Speaker 1: keep coming up with new stuff? Right? And like I said,

450
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 1: I don't. And I said, like, they're pretty much there

451
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 1: is no new stuff like the stuff that I talk about.

452
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 1: You know, philosophers and stoics and theologians and psychologists and

453
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 1: researchers have been talking about for hundreds and thousands of years.

454
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 1: You know, it's like there's there's nothing. You know, there's

455
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 1: new ways of sharing old ideas or old wisdom, you know,

456
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,360
Speaker 1: but it's like I'm just opening the door and pointing

457
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 1: towards you know. It's like, make hard decisions, do hard things.

458
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: You might get better results. Sitting on the couch crossing

459
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 1: your fingers not a great strategy.

460
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 4: You know.

461
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 1: Self awareness is a pretty good idea. Authenticity and humilistic humility,

462
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 1: and like in this space of personal development and you know,

463
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 1: self help, it's like for me it's largely a regurgitation

464
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 1: of things. And especially maybe it's just some of the

465
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 1: people that I follow or connect with on social media platforms,

466
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 1: but you know, people who seem to be on a

467
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: level reinventing the metaphoric wheel and pretending that they invented

468
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: the actual wheel. It's like, no, dude, this is this

469
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: is just you're saying shit that has been said forever.

470
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 1: And I talked to some really big audiences, but I

471
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,400
Speaker 1: don't say anything that hasn't been said. I might say

472
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: it in my way, you know, and it's it's for

473
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 1: me unless the and I know i'm digressing here, but

474
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:02,439
Speaker 1: for me, unless the message is empowering the individual, not me.

475
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,439
Speaker 1: You know. It's like I tell everybody constantly, I'm not

476
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: the answer whatever. I'm just a resource and I may

477
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,679
Speaker 1: or may not be any value to you. That's more

478
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: about you than me. But empowering people to maybe lose

479
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 1: the wishful thinking. It's good to be positive, it's good

480
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,400
Speaker 1: to focus on what you want to do be create change,

481
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: but also perhaps you know, going back to that pragmatic

482
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,160
Speaker 1: thing of going, well, what is it that I want

483
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,360
Speaker 1: to create and change? What do I want to learn

484
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 1: and unlearn and now what decisions do I need to

485
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: make an action do I need to take to truly

486
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: manifest it myself. So the manifesting is a byproduct of

487
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 1: my work and courage and choices, rather than sitting on

488
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 1: a couch thinking happy or positive thoughts. No disrespect to anyone.

489
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean there's a few points there that I

490
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 4: could grab and go on go on about too, I feel,

491
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 4: but I want to I want to just say that

492
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 4: I agree that like that there's so much regurgitation and

493
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 4: and actually you find that fields like stagnate when there

494
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 4: is that, right, you're not actually creating anything new, and

495
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 4: people get very sort of sensitive about protecting their you know,

496
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 4: trademarked kind of system of success or whatever it is.

497
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: Let's call it. Let's call it pseudoscience.

498
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it stagnates.

499
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 4: And so it's strange, you know, because that's one of

500
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 4: the things that pushed me into doing going to university.

501
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 4: Actually because I I was training NLP, so I was

502
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 4: training neurone risky programming training trainers, and and that that

503
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 4: I was trying to I was creating content like I

504
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 4: was creating the curriculum and wanting to really understand where

505
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 4: these ideas came from. And it was really frustrating to

506
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 4: me because I had no way of really getting back

507
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 4: to and tracing these things back to their roots. I

508
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 4: read the books and then I read you know, the

509
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 4: Founders books, and they're just squabbling with each other, and

510
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 4: you know, the thing is that there was just no

511
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 4: systematic way of being able to understand the roots of

512
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 4: these ideas. And to me, that's why it's I don't know,

513
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 4: like we're doing sort of talking shop here, but it's

514
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 4: like it's hard to really be able to say, look,

515
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 4: this is what NLP is, or this is what whatever

516
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 4: modality it is that you do if you can't actually

517
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 4: sort of agree on the philosophies behind this, or at

518
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 4: least be able to talk to each other and challenge

519
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 4: each other on what the roots of these things are

520
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 4: and then be able to test those, hopefully scientifically or

521
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 4: at least sort of empirically or observation. And so I

522
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 4: think citing your sources is just a bloody good idea.

523
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 2: You know, I think you can do it easily.

524
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 4: You can just say I heard this from blah blah

525
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 4: or you know, Marcus Aureli has said, and it's done.

526
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 4: You know, people can go do their own, like you said,

527
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 4: their own kind of research. So that really piqued my

528
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 4: interest when you said that, because that's what I found

529
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 4: from going to university. And I try to tell my

530
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 4: students too that hey, like this is not just the

531
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 4: boring thing that we try to get you to do,

532
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 4: but like that is the way you learn, that's the

533
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 4: way you grow. And part of how you do that

534
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 4: is that you're held to a high standard when you're

535
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 4: doing a PhD. Right to like not reproducing stuff that's

536
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 4: been done before. The only way you know whether or not.

537
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 4: And hey, we don't even really know. I'm sure someone's

538
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 4: done some research or manifestation and called it something different

539
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 4: that I didn't find, but I know that I'm at

540
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 4: least one of the first that's just made this little

541
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 4: contribution in my field because we can trace back, do

542
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 4: you know what I mean?

543
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 2: So I don't know.

544
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 4: For me, that was really eye opening to go to

545
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 4: university and understand that that's those books in the library

546
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 4: and these millions of people writing things down. The only

547
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 4: way we can have a sort of way of navigating

548
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 4: that is to be able to understand how to to

549
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 4: cite our sources, and I don't how you do that

550
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 4: other links.

551
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 2: You know.

552
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, And one of the that's actually fascinating. I want

553
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: to talk to you about NLP in a moment. But

554
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 1: one of the ever present realities too is when you

555
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: are truly intertwined with an ideology or a philosophy, or

556
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 1: a practice or a construct, then you get a sense

557
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 1: of your identity from that. Right, So when people have

558
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 1: certain strong beliefs, then logic and science goes out the

559
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: window because now we've got a motion wrapped around this idea.

560
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: And if you challenge my idea, you challenge my identity.

561
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 1: So fuck you and your science, you know what I mean.

562
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: And this is like one of the challenges. And I'm

563
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: not a very good scientist, right, I'm not bad. You're

564
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 1: way better than me, I'm sure. But one of the

565
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 1: ever present realities for me is that every scientist has

566
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: got bias. Like we all like to think where totally objective,

567
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 1: None of us are. We're all subjective, every including me.

568
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: Do I have bias? Of course? Am I emotional? Of course?

569
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 1: Do I get defensive? Of course? Have I got an ego?

570
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: Of course? Do I want to be that? No? I don't, Right,

571
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: But I think that acknowledging our humanity not as a

572
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: flaw or a weakness, but just an ever present reality

573
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 1: and saying look, you like you've just done this is

574
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 1: what I think. This is what I did. Maybe someone

575
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: else did some similar research called at something else. But

576
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: when we've got an incentive to produce a certain outcome,

577
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: which a lot of research has now because it's funded

578
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: and the people who are funding it on a certain outcome,

579
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: let's not open that door. But yeah, it's trying to

580
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:04,719
Speaker 1: find the absolute unbiased truth at the bottom of all

581
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: of this stuff, which can be you know, I mean

582
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 1: that's a that's a minefield, you know, yeah, steps down

583
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: our high horse.

584
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 2: Go oh, I'd say.

585
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 4: That that that's a really interesting point about truth and

586
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 4: and you you, I think your research that you said

587
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 4: you've been doing with your PhD s Thatt are touching

588
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 4: on on that too, of being able to look at

589
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 4: the accuracy of certain beliefs that we have.

590
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 2: But I think it's some of us, you know.

591
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 4: I guess you could call it like in academica or

592
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 4: call it epistemology, right, but basically the idea that like,

593
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 4: how how do we judge whether.

594
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 2: Something is true?

595
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 4: And we all do this in our own way, and

596
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 4: some of the stuff that I've looked at in my

597
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 4: research has been like that sometimes we have certain styles

598
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 4: that we that we gravitate towards on a spect like

599
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 4: from trusting our gut versus and being really quick and

600
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 4: intuitive with our decisions versus thinking through things really sort

601
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 4: of slowly and deeply. And it's not to say that

602
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 4: one is always good or one is always bad, and

603
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 4: it's not to say that we don't all naturally fluctuate

604
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 4: and use our hearts so to speak, and our heads sometimes,

605
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 4: but we tend to gravitate. It's almost like a personality

606
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 4: trait that we have where some of us will kind

607
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 4: of prefer to trust our gut and perhaps if we

608
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,359
Speaker 4: have a belief by manifestation, it's almost like.

609
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 2: You're supposed to, you know, and so you you really develop.

610
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 4: That that, yes, I do this, and those sort of

611
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 4: trusting your gut versus preferring to think deeply about things.

612
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 2: There's been a lot of research lately about how how

613
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,320
Speaker 2: that you know that.

614
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 4: That trusting your your your gut when it comes to

615
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 4: complex issues is not always.

616
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 2: The greatest way to make decisions. So especially like.

617
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 4: If you think, I'll just give you an obvious example.

618
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 4: So if it's it's something like finances, you know what

619
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 4: I mean, or how well your business is going, you know,

620
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,320
Speaker 4: at your at your three year mark or something.

621
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 2: Like that, when you really.

622
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, like you said, you're motivated towards wanting to think

623
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 4: good about this.

624
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 2: It's not nice that to have the hard conversation with yourself.

625
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 4: And so we're going to all naturally kind of go

626
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 4: towards that intuitive sort of like, oh, this is how

627
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 4: I want to feel about this, this is how I

628
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 4: hope that things are going to go in the future.

629
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 4: So I'm going to I'm just going to brush over,

630
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:40,479
Speaker 4: you know, I'm just going to brush over these these

631
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 4: hard truths and prefer like and I think that you

632
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 4: can find yourself in groups and in around people or

633
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 4: gurus that will encourage that in you for and that's

634
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 4: some of the recess I've looked at with multi level marketing,

635
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 4: where it's kind of used as a tool to sort

636
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 4: of stop you from thinking critically about Hold on a min,

637
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,280
Speaker 4: I haven't made any money in three years, and perhaps

638
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 4: I've lost money, but you know, maybe there's something not

639
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 4: quite right about this model or you know, should I

640
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 4: just keep listening to them telling me that it's my

641
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 4: fault because I'm not manifesting this enough, you know.

642
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 2: So, you know, I think it's important.

643
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 4: To to kind of understand that we can fall in

644
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 4: this spectrum of I mean, we've got to try to

645
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,279
Speaker 4: find a way of integrating our heart and our head.

646
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 4: And that's that, to me, is a really fascinating process

647
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 4: moving through life.

648
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 2: You don't want to be a stone, you know.

649
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 4: But at the same time, you know, thinking sort of

650
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 4: intuitively and quickly helps us to buy our coffees and

651
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 4: do the automatic things every day, but not necessarily make

652
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 4: those big life decisions that that might be it might

653
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 4: be more helpful to really deliberate on and think about.

654
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that I'm fascinated with cults, Lucas, And

655
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:02,760
Speaker 1: to me, and I've done lots of pseudo research into cults,

656
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 1: and I listen to fucking countless podcasts on cults too

657
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 1: many when I should be doing actual research. But to me,

658
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 1: multi level marketing is like a cult of thought, a

659
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 1: cult of behavior. It's like it's like we were going

660
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 1: to tell you how to think. We don't want you

661
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 1: to think for yourself, going to tell you how to

662
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 1: think and what to think, how to be, what to

663
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 1: focus on, what to pay attention to, and if you

664
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 1: have this thought, get rid of that thought because that's

665
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 1: bad thought. And so literally it's a form of mind

666
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 1: control and manipulation and coercion. And you know, like many

667
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 1: actual what we would call religious cults or spiritual cults.

668
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 1: I mean there are food cults, there are exercise cults,

669
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:44,359
Speaker 1: there are cultural cults where in order to belong in

670
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: that group, you need to think and be an act

671
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 1: and behave and align with that group. Otherwise, like if

672
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 1: you can't disagree with anything, or you're out of the group.

673
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 1: So the idea of critical thinking, as you that's truly

674
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 1: discouraged because you know, they're neither you're a sinner or

675
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: a backslider, or you're mistaken or you're a problem or

676
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 1: you know you've slipped out of the light into the

677
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 1: darkness or whatever metaphor you want to lose use. But

678
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 1: like I don't care what kind of group it is,

679
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 1: but if you are in any group and they don't

680
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: want you to question anything or think for yourself or

681
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:27,919
Speaker 1: ever be critical of anything that is like a fundamental

682
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 1: of that group, then you should get the fuck out

683
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 1: of that group. Like for me, that's just that's a

684
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: you know, there's there's alarm belts right there.

685
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, I agree. Couldn't say it better.

686
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,799
Speaker 4: I mean, that's that's how that's the advice that I

687
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,280
Speaker 4: give people to Like, even though my research isn't necessarily

688
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:50,280
Speaker 4: directly looking at cults, I think, you know, I always

689
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 4: just try to say, look, if you're feeling like this

690
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 4: real social pressure to to have to think a certain

691
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 4: way and not think another way, and that that involves

692
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 4: you not thinking critically, not questioning, then that's a red flag.

693
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 1: And yeah, well I think also, I mean, if you

694
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: think for yourself too much, they can't control you. And

695
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 1: the idea of any cult is control and manipulation and

696
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 1: domination on the premise that you know, like think about

697
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 1: a lot of religious cults. You know, it's all a

698
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:25,359
Speaker 1: matter of semantics, really, religion cults, some religions I would

699
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 1: call cults. Some are maybe more mainstream and I don't know,

700
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,279
Speaker 1: but you know, think about like I grew up in

701
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 1: a cult that said if I behave a certain way,

702
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 1: not the way I should behave, I'm going to burn

703
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 1: in an eternal lake of fire. Forever. And I learned

704
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: that when I was six. Right now, when you're six

705
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,240
Speaker 1: years old, and you get told if you do this thing,

706
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,359
Speaker 1: if you die in this state, and by the way,

707
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: you could die at any stage. You don't know when

708
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 1: you're going to die, Craig. And if you die with

709
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:56,360
Speaker 1: a mortal sin on your soul, this is what a

710
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 1: mortal sin is. Right then you're going to burn for

711
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 1: eternity in fire. Well, how fucking terrifying is that? And

712
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 1: what a great way to control a mind. And it's like,

713
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 1: this is not presented as an idea. This is presented

714
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 1: as a truth. And so I grew up being terrified

715
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 1: of dying, you know, with a sin. And it's like

716
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: fucking hell. And this is being imprinted into children's minds

717
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: by adults who don't go, oh, maybe this is not

718
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 1: a good idea to do this And you know, the

719
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 1: few times where I would question things, and again, this

720
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 1: is just my story. And really it's not just about

721
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 1: religion everyone, it's just about thinking and programming. But it

722
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: happens to be in a religious context here. Yeah, I mean, wow,

723
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 1: talk about how to dominate somebody, make them terrified and

724
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 1: make them think that only you know the escape route.

725
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's terrible. I mean is it's terrible.

726
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 4: And the interesting thing as well, when when you when

727
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 4: you like because I guess one of the ways that

728
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 4: then they'll just sort of come back is go, well, no,

729
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 4: but God God loves you, you know, or you're whatever

730
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 4: you're you know, and it's doing it because he loves you.

731
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,479
Speaker 2: And what a message. What a mixed message going on there.

732
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 4: But the same with positivity, I think that can happen,

733
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 4: and I guess with manifestation and things that happen in

734
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 4: MLMs if you plaster over that with oh yeah, but

735
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 4: we're giving you something to grab onto, so yeah, don't

736
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 4: think negatively, but you know, don't be critical, but you know,

737
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 4: we've got all these tools and techniques to help you

738
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 4: to be positive. Then it almost feels like it's not

739
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 4: why why would people just want the best for me?

740
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 2: You know, they want me to succeed.

741
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 4: They there's no, there's no, they just don't want me

742
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:52,319
Speaker 4: to be negative. So it's very hard to see through

743
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 4: that veil and realize that it could be used as

744
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 4: a form of especially when it comes to positive thinking,

745
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 4: it could be used as a form of control because

746
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 4: it just feels like people have the best of intentions

747
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 4: for you. They want you to succeed, they want you

748
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 4: to think happy thoughts, they want you to you know, whereas.

749
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:12,280
Speaker 2: I think that it can be that they've mortgaged.

750
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 4: In a case of MLM, they've they've remortgaged their you know,

751
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 4: they mortgage themselves up to the hill or paying rent

752
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 4: just so they can show you their expensive house and

753
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 4: pretend that the MLM was the thing that got them there,

754
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 4: you know.

755
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,280
Speaker 2: So I yeah, it's.

756
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 4: It's a I think when you when you see it's hard,

757
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 4: but it's it's important to really think, you know, do

758
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 4: these people have the best intentions for me?

759
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 2: Or or what are they getting out of this? You know,

760
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 2: what's the vested interests here?

761
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:50,959
Speaker 1: And MLM is multi level marketing? Everyone just that's cool?

762
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 1: What's fucking MLM? Before we go, I want to ask

763
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:59,280
Speaker 1: you one thing. So I don't know what the answer

764
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,720
Speaker 1: to this is, but you know, ten years ago, anyway,

765
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 1: I think most people, most actual researchers and psychologists or

766
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,720
Speaker 1: people in the psychology space kind of thought that NLP

767
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 1: new neurolinguistic programming was kind of bullshit, kind of a

768
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 1: pseudo science, not real not really respected or taught in

769
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 1: universities or I don't know what what is it in

770
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, What regards is NLP held in these days?

771
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 4: I don't think it's much changed, but I think that

772
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:36,840
Speaker 4: that's the same kind of There was a set of

773
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 4: studies done and that's been the thing that people have

774
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 4: grabbed on to, I think, and sort of that it

775
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 4: sort of disproved an aspect of NLP, the eye accessing queues. Basically,

776
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,800
Speaker 4: when the idea that if you look in a certain direction,

777
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:55,319
Speaker 4: it means that you're visualizing or talking to yourself and

778
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 4: you can kind of not really people's minds, but get

779
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 4: a sense of what's going on behind what their words

780
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 4: are saying, and it was sort of they did some

781
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:04,840
Speaker 4: studies on that and it sort of disproved it.

782
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:06,880
Speaker 2: But it does also show you.

783
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 4: There's a slight bias towards anything that's sort of not

784
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,840
Speaker 4: scientifically proven, and you find that, then people will grab

785
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 4: those studies and make a big deal of them. But

786
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 4: they weren't super high quality and they weren't able to

787
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:23,239
Speaker 4: no one's replicated it, so I don't take much of that.

788
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 4: I just think that the two founders really pissed off

789
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 4: a lot of psychiatrists and psychologists with their rhetoric for

790
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:31,240
Speaker 4: years and years.

791
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 2: It's never going to be accepted. But of course, look,

792
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 2: the NLP is.

793
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 4: The thing with these things that are sort of suito

794
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 4: scientific is that there's grains of truth all over the place.

795
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:48,439
Speaker 4: There's great practitioners that are doing excellent work, and there's

796
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,919
Speaker 4: a lot that's helped me in my life, and I've

797
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 4: had great, great experiences with helping people.

798
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 2: But if you're a.

799
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 4: Field that can't sort of define what it is that

800
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:03,319
Speaker 4: you do and and what like, can't agree on like

801
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 4: what these techniques are or what these tools are, and

802
00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 4: and you know, if you haven't got a kind of

803
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 4: real foundation therefore or be able to test your claims,

804
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:13,399
Speaker 4: then I.

805
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:14,439
Speaker 2: Don't know, you know, I can't.

806
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 4: I can't point to one thing and say that's NLP,

807
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 4: that's an NLP technique, or that's a I don't know,

808
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:25,240
Speaker 4: cognitive behavior therapy technique, or that's a you know, something

809
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 4: from family therapy, because it's and it's not NLP. I

810
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 4: don't know, you know, because we haven't really progressed much

811
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:34,880
Speaker 4: as a as a as a field in being able

812
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 4: to sort of test these things and set ourselves apart

813
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 4: and say, well, let's do I don't know, a randomized

814
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 4: control trial. Well, we put out put our techniques to

815
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 4: the test and be able to see whether or not

816
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 4: there's we can do just as good or as better

817
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 4: as the standard approaches that are out there that would

818
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 4: give you some kind of sense of, like, you know,

819
00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 4: how things are.

820
00:45:58,120 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 2: So I don't know.

821
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 4: To me that it's hard to make a claim about

822
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 4: whether it's great, good or not.

823
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 2: And that's kind of why I walked. I guess I

824
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:08,800
Speaker 2: walked away. Let's be honest. I don't do it to

825
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:09,280
Speaker 2: be honest.

826
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 1: Let's be honest. Look, but I kind of understand because

827
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:18,720
Speaker 1: my first, my first foray, my absolute for first foray

828
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 1: into personal development was reading How to Win Friends and

829
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 1: Influence People, which was written in nineteen thirty six by

830
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 1: Dale Carnegie. But my first face to face live experience

831
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 1: was Tony Robbins, and I reluctantly went along as a

832
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 1: guest of some other people and fully expecting it to

833
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 1: be bullshit and hate it. And honestly I got lots

834
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 1: out of it, you know, like there was stuff that

835
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:48,720
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed, there was stuff that challenged my thinking

836
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: there was like I realized that, Like I was very

837
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,839
Speaker 1: closed minded for the first hour or two it was

838
00:46:55,880 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: like a ten hour or twelve hour day. But half

839
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,399
Speaker 1: way through, I'm like, he actually is making lots of sense. Now,

840
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 1: love him or hate him, it doesn't matter, Like if

841
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 1: you can get past your bias and just tune into

842
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:12,360
Speaker 1: what's being said and try to have a level of

843
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:16,359
Speaker 1: objectivity and awareness. And you know, that was I then

844
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 1: went on, I would say a ten year kind of

845
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 1: journey of what people would typically call self help and

846
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 1: personal development. And some of it was garbage, and some

847
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 1: of it was gold, and some of it was somewhere

848
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 1: in the middle. And it's like, yes, some of it's

849
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 1: pseudo science. But I think for me, more than anything,

850
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 1: it got me to question, It got me to try things.

851
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: It got me curious, It got me excited, It got

852
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 1: me inspired, It got me to make decisions and change behavior.

853
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 1: You know, So whether or not it was the book,

854
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 1: or whether or not it was me, or whether or

855
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:53,800
Speaker 1: not it was the workshop or a bit of everything,

856
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 1: it kind of doesn't matter. Right, So I think there

857
00:47:56,719 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: are lots of tools that may not even be highlight

858
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 1: regarded by science, that can still be valuable, you know,

859
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 1: in the right context for the right person.

860
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

861
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 4: Absolutely, And I kind of feel that you can usually

862
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 4: use your common sense meter with it. You know that

863
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 4: if you someone just can describe to you what it

864
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 4: is that they're giving you this technique for and what

865
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:23,879
Speaker 4: it can what it can do, and then you try

866
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 4: it and it works for you, then then it's great.

867
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 4: And I, like you, have definitely spent my life with

868
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 4: a kind of growth oriented approach and wanting to grow

869
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 4: and learn. And I love learning and that includes learning

870
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 4: about myself. I think the thing for me that I

871
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 4: guess I'm coming at it more from a thinking that,

872
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,799
Speaker 4: like for consumers, you've got to do what works for

873
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 4: you. You don't have all day to be spending rummaging through

874
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 4: all the scientific literature on something. You just have to

875
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 4: trust I guess what you're so you need to trust

876
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:07,239
Speaker 4: other people to help you to Like I guess that's

877
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 4: what you do, That's what I do. We're trying to

878
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 4: be the leaders in I guess, the thought leaders whatever.

879
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 2: I don't like those.

880
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 4: Terms and change makers, thought leaders there, you know, but

881
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:20,279
Speaker 4: you know you're trying to disseminate and put together all

882
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:23,919
Speaker 4: of this wisdom and knowledge and communicated in a way

883
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,359
Speaker 4: so that people can then take that and make it.

884
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 2: Meaningful to them.

885
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 4: So I guess when for the consumers of that, yeah,

886
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 4: they need to be able to trust that the people

887
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 4: at that other level where the communicators of that information

888
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 4: are I guess doing a good job of thinking about

889
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 4: this stuff. And so I guess I'm more critical of

890
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:48,839
Speaker 4: that the industry, And.

891
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 2: That's kind of where I'm you know, I'm not critical.

892
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 4: Of anyone's individual journey, but I'm kind of critical of

893
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 4: the industry for not for they Because if you're doing

894
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 4: this professionally and it's your life's wor well that's what

895
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 4: you want to do, and you're making these massive promises

896
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:07,399
Speaker 4: to people, then you should be being able to think

897
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 4: about these things a bit deeper than and not, you know,

898
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:16,640
Speaker 4: regurgitating the same sort of simplistic ideas about and so

899
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 4: I guess, yeah, I'm on a bit of a mission

900
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 4: to try to wake people, wake practitioners up, I think,

901
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 4: and go, you don't have to go to university, you

902
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:26,400
Speaker 4: don't have to spend I have to spend eight years

903
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 4: to get in my PhD. Like I know, not everyone

904
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 4: has that time or inclination and we don't have to

905
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 4: do that, but I think we can all get better at,

906
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 4: you know, being able to be a bit more nuanced and.

907
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 2: Being able to help people to understand what's going to

908
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:46,800
Speaker 2: work best for them. I guess so awesome.

909
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 1: Well, but it's been a pleasure meeting you, mate. I've

910
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:51,840
Speaker 1: got the name for you. Have you written a book yet?

911
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 4: I'm halfway through a couple, so they're just sitting there

912
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 4: at the moment, in the middle of semester.

913
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 1: I've got a title for you. You ready, Yes, the

914
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:06,320
Speaker 1: title is There is no Secret. But ah and you

915
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 1: had an exact same cover design and then you and

916
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 1: you just put above in little words, there is no

917
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 1: How do people find you? How do people find you

918
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:19,320
Speaker 1: and follow you and connect with you? Doc?

919
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, good question. You know.

920
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 4: I spend so much time online looking and lurking and

921
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 4: but I'm so not active. But you could go to

922
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:33,799
Speaker 4: that horrible cesspool that is x and find me there

923
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 4: mainly posting a little bit about my research and some

924
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:39,760
Speaker 4: ironic memes.

925
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 2: That's about it. But that's doctor Lucas Dixon. So l

926
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:46,359
Speaker 2: U C A S D A x O N and

927
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 2: LinkedIn And if you.

928
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 4: Go to University of Queensland and pot my name in

929
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 4: the search.

930
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 2: You can find me there and get in contact. Love

931
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:56,879
Speaker 2: to talk to people.

932
00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 4: I've found that through this whole process that speaking to

933
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 4: people who aren't academics has been probably the most rewarding part.

934
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 4: I've got lots of insights and people's personal experiences with this,

935
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:12,840
Speaker 4: whether they're still into manifestation or into emilms or not,

936
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 4: has been like super rewarding and yeah, so happy to

937
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 4: chat with people about anything.

938
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 1: Really well, mate, we'll say goodbye fair but for the moment, Lucas,

939
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 1: thanks for being on the new project. It was great.

940
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 1: I appreciate you.

941
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:32,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, cheers, Crog, Thanks Tiffany, Thanks Deer, thank you