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Speaker 1: Goodda, Thanks so much for download the show. Welcome This

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Speaker 1: is better than Yesterday. Useful tools and useful conversations to

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Speaker 1: help make your day to day better than yesterday, every

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Speaker 1: single episode since twenty thirteen. My name's Oosha Ginsberg. I'm

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Speaker 1: very glad you're here. It is summer and you're taking

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Speaker 1: a break, or you're trying to take a break and

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Speaker 1: you're slowing down. My team's taking a break. But I

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Speaker 1: didn't want to leave you empty handed today, So we're

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Speaker 1: going back over the twelve years more than twelve years

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Speaker 1: now of episodes to give you something to think about

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Speaker 1: that isn't Is this sun block actually got any PF

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Speaker 1: of the sun protection factor? Or is it just expensive moisturizer?

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Speaker 1: Are my children going to get melanomic after going through

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Speaker 1: swim today, which is what I think about. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you do that today today. I love this

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Speaker 1: conversation so much. I can't wait to give you this

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Speaker 1: little part of it. We're going to dive into the

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Speaker 1: fascinating mind of Maria Khonnikova, who is a psychologist, an author,

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Speaker 1: and a professional poker player. All Right, her work is extraordinary.

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Speaker 1: It explores the intersection of psychology and decision making and

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Speaker 1: human behavior. And she's written two brilliant books. One's called

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Speaker 1: The Confidence Game and one's called The Biggest Bluff. And

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Speaker 1: I love both of those books. They're really really exploring

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Speaker 1: decision making through the lens of a game like poker,

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Speaker 1: for example, and it taught me a lot about how

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Speaker 1: we will make up our minds to do things. In

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Speaker 1: this conversation today, I'm going to give you just just

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Speaker 1: some bits to chew on, and we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about making decisions under pressure, the psychology of con artists,

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Speaker 1: and how people get scammed, and the importance of mindfulness.

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Speaker 1: Even professional poker players, it's important for them. So she's

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Speaker 1: a psychologist, she's a professional poker player. The journey started

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Speaker 1: as she was doing research for the book The Biggest Bluff,

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Speaker 1: But then off she went and she ended up at

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Speaker 1: the World Series. So in this little first part, Maria

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Speaker 1: talks about how she learned to or she had to

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Speaker 1: have to learn. She really had to learn to manage

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Speaker 1: her emotions and make rational decisions in high pressure situations

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Speaker 1: sitting at the poker table. And it's fascinating hearing her

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Speaker 1: describe the mastery of staying calm when it comes to

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Speaker 1: making calculated choices. What did you find out about trying

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Speaker 1: to intercept that? Like, say, for example, you're in a

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Speaker 1: poker tournament, you're at the final table, all right, which

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Speaker 1: you've done a number of times. You're an exceptional poker player.

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Speaker 1: I dared never come up against you. Say, there's four

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Speaker 1: of you at the table, and you flop pocket kings,

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Speaker 1: all right, and you go, fuck yeah, here we go.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to push this motherfucker right off this table,

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Speaker 1: all right. And the flop comes down and you're already

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Speaker 1: your heart's already beating through your chest, all right. How

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Speaker 1: did you learn? And you clearly did learn. How did

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Speaker 1: you learn to circumvent and stop that excitement that hope

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Speaker 1: of I'm going to take this final table. I'm already

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Speaker 1: seeing the cash floating through the air as it flutters

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Speaker 1: down on me. How did you stop that emotional thing

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Speaker 1: from taking over as you then saw the next cards

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Speaker 1: and go how do I make a correct decision here

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Speaker 1: based on not only the cause, but what these other

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Speaker 1: three people have been doing for the last three days?

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Speaker 1: How did you do that?

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Speaker 2: That is an excellent question, and I think that the

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Speaker 2: true answer is I'm always working on it. It's not

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Speaker 2: a magic thing where you do it and then hurrah,

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Speaker 2: you will never ever experience those moments again. I think

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Speaker 2: it's very hubristic to think that you can just cure

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Speaker 2: it once and for all. But I think the key

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Speaker 2: is to do the hard work and the heavy lifting

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Speaker 2: ahead of time, to recognize that those moments are going

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Speaker 2: to happen, and that you will be in situations where

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Speaker 2: you get emotional and where your heart starts racing and

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Speaker 2: your pulse starts beating and all of these things start happening,

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Speaker 2: and to figure out, Okay, when I'm in that situation,

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Speaker 2: what am I going to do? Because if you didn't

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Speaker 2: do the hard work and the heavy lifting ahead of time,

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Speaker 2: you are not going to be able to do it

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Speaker 2: in the moment. You need to recognize that in the

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Speaker 2: moment you are going to be limited. No matter who

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Speaker 2: you are, you could be the greatest self control guru

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Speaker 2: in the world, but if you did not do that

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Speaker 2: self analysis and identify that possible situation ahead of time

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Speaker 2: and figure out how am I going to respond to it.

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Speaker 2: The nature of these hot emotional situations is they're hot

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Speaker 2: emotional situations. They are going to get you into a

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Speaker 2: spot where you're not thinking rationally. And so what I

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Speaker 2: ended up doing was, first of all, I had to

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Speaker 2: overcome my misgivings about mental coaches and get one of

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Speaker 2: my own. So I always thought, I'm a psychologist, I've

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Speaker 2: studied decision making, I know all of these biases, I

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Speaker 2: know all about it. I don't need a mental coach.

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Speaker 2: And then obviously I realized, oops, I do need a

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Speaker 2: mental coach, because you can't do it all yourself. And

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Speaker 2: then it was very funny because I really resisted what

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Speaker 2: he asked me to do. He said, okay, you know,

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Speaker 2: we would talk and I would go through a game

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Speaker 2: and all of these situations, and he'd make me identify

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Speaker 2: all these things, and then he said, you have to

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Speaker 2: write this all down. He actually made me fill out

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Speaker 2: spreadsheets where I would say, okay, I flop pocket kings, right,

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Speaker 2: I describe the situation, what do I do? Okay? What

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Speaker 2: am I going to do next time? What am I

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Speaker 2: going to say to myself? How am I going to react?

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Speaker 2: What are the techniques I'm going to employ? And at

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Speaker 2: first I didn't do the stupid Excel spreadsheet because that's yes,

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Speaker 2: why in the world would I waste my time doing that.

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Speaker 2: I'm smart and I don't need it. No, I didn't

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Speaker 2: need it, because writing it down and going through that

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Speaker 2: process actually forces you to think through things in a

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Speaker 2: way that you wouldn't otherwise do. And I'm a writer,

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Speaker 2: I write things down all the time. And still I

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Speaker 2: was resistant to this. And so by the time I

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Speaker 2: get to that final table and I'm in that situation,

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Speaker 2: I've actually thought about what I was going to do,

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Speaker 2: and I've actually already realized, Okay, well, first of all,

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Speaker 2: just general thing, I'm going to be standardizing all of

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Speaker 2: my reactions in terms of how I handle the cards

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Speaker 2: and what I do. And then when I'm in this

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Speaker 2: type of situation, here's exactly what I'm going to do.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to take three deep breaths. I'm going to

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Speaker 2: think about, you know, whatever it is I'm going to

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Speaker 2: think about. I'm going to think about the clouds and

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Speaker 2: the sky and pretend that I'm on a beach under

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Speaker 2: the clouds and not at this table at all. Then

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Speaker 2: I'm going to kind of go back and these are

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Speaker 2: the elements that I'm going to analyze and the decision process.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to think about who these opponents are and

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Speaker 2: what they did, and I'm going to mentally check off,

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Speaker 2: did I think about this? Did I think about that?

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Speaker 2: Did I think about the other thing? And then I'm

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Speaker 2: going to act accordingly, and I'm going to be willing

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Speaker 2: at any point to let go and to say, Okay,

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Speaker 2: you know what, this isn't a great situation. That's also

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Speaker 2: very important. It's important not to get too committed or

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Speaker 2: to emotionally invested in any course of action or decision

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Speaker 2: ahead of time, because you need to be willing to

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Speaker 2: be flexible and to think, you know what, if the

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Speaker 2: data in no longer add up, I'm going to take

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Speaker 2: those pocket kings and throw them into the muck. I'm

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Speaker 2: going to I'm going to fold. And that's not something

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Speaker 2: that I was capable of doing early on, and it

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Speaker 2: took all of that time, and sometimes, like I said,

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Speaker 2: it's still it's a work in progress. Sometimes you still

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Speaker 2: find yourself unable to take a step back. But it's

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Speaker 2: so important to think through that plan of action ahead

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Speaker 2: of time. If I have a bad beat at the

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Speaker 2: table and something terrible happens and I'm in a really

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Speaker 2: bad state because I just lost a lot of chips,

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Speaker 2: I might actually get up and walk around the room

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Speaker 2: and yeah, I might miss a few hands and I

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Speaker 2: might look stupid, but I don't care because that's actually

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Speaker 2: going to make me money, because I know that for

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Speaker 2: me personally, it's powerful to get out of the situation,

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Speaker 2: to actually physically move away, and that I come back

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Speaker 2: with a clear head and able to make good decisions.

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Speaker 1: We'd like to think that we get a chance to

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Speaker 1: make really important life decisions when we're calm, we're relaxed,

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Speaker 1: we're centered, we've got all the facts, but generally that's

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Speaker 1: not the case. We're like in this really heightened state

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Speaker 1: and our brains are really small, narrow fight or flight.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's binary options most of the time. It's

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Speaker 1: fascinating listening to Maria talk about decision making under pressure,

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Speaker 1: not just for poker players, but for anyone facing a

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Speaker 1: high stack situation. I love that, you know, she talked

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Speaker 1: about preparation, self awareness, detaching emotionally from the outcome, really

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Speaker 1: really really powerful reminders of being mindful and planning. Certainly

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Speaker 1: when it comes to I don't know your next contract negotiation,

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Speaker 1: or talking to your kid about when they're actually going

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Speaker 1: to get a phone. Now, I do need to take

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Speaker 1: a break, but I just wanted to let you know

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Speaker 1: that the story Club YouTube if you're looking for something

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Speaker 1: to watch that's fifteen minutes long and hilarious. Not really

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Speaker 1: used to You can't watch it with kids in the

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Speaker 1: room most of the time. The story Club YouTube is

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Speaker 1: up and firing a lot. You can find the link

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Speaker 1: in the show notes. Every story is true. Some of

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Speaker 1: the greatest storytellers and racontours in the country. There's a

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Speaker 1: live storytelling show that I run every month here in Sydney.

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Speaker 1: If you haven't able to get to a show, I

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Speaker 1: film every one of them and I'm putting new stories

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Speaker 1: up every single week. The live show's returned in February.

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Speaker 1: You can watch the YouTube and find tickets to the

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Speaker 1: live shows in the show notes. On top of that,

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Speaker 1: I have a new book out and it's a great

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Speaker 1: gift and a great thing to read. To take you

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Speaker 1: forty minutes to read, I'd like to think it'd probably

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Speaker 1: change your life. It's called So What Now What the

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Speaker 1: links in the show notes. We're back in a moment

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Speaker 1: with Maria Kona Koba. Don't go anywhere.

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Speaker 2: So.

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Speaker 1: In her book The Confidence Game, Maria breaks down the

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Speaker 1: stages of a con because there's stages of when people

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Speaker 1: get scammed or con there's different phases that it works through.

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Speaker 1: And she talks about how even the smartest people can

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Speaker 1: be deceived. Now I'm not saying I'm super smart, but

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Speaker 1: I'm not silly. But I started telling her about how

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Speaker 1: once I was, you know, I was in the Middle

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Speaker 1: East and I'm in this big market, and you know,

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Speaker 1: there's spices and fluffle and everything, and there was some

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Speaker 1: guys playing the three shell game, all right, when they

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Speaker 1: you know which shell is the bean under? And I

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Speaker 1: fell for it. I'd seen it in the movies and whatever,

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Speaker 1: and i was watching like five or six games fourhand.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I know exactly how to do this, and

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Speaker 1: I fully got taken. I got taken, absolutely taken. And

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Speaker 1: I was devastated because I thought I'm a smart person

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Speaker 1: and I figured it out and I knew that this

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Speaker 1: is a scam, but I still got done by it.

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Speaker 1: And in this bit of the conversation, Maria explains that

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Speaker 1: intelligence and skepticism hadn't enough really to protect us from

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Speaker 1: being conned. When I read your book, I was like,

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Speaker 1: oh shit. The three people that went before me were

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Speaker 1: all a part of the.

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Speaker 2: Team they were and did. But you know what, to

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Speaker 2: make you feel better, One of the people I interviewed

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Speaker 2: for the book fell for the exact same thing, Three

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Speaker 2: card Monty, which is a version of the Shell Game.

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Speaker 2: It's all the same thing, right, you've got three, you've

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Speaker 2: got find the one. And in the case of three

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Speaker 2: card Monte, you have to follow the queen. In the

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Speaker 2: case of the shell game, you have to figure out

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Speaker 2: under what shell, the hidden whatever it is, is located.

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Speaker 2: And one of the people I interviewed for the book

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Speaker 2: was at that time one of the senior editors at

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Speaker 2: Scientific American, you know, a major publication of Scientific fact

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Speaker 2: was studying for her PhD. An incredibly, incredibly intelligent woman,

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Speaker 2: and she was just overwhelmed. She was in New York,

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Speaker 2: in the big city, visiting her friend on Canal Street.

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Speaker 2: It was also big and bright, and she thought that

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Speaker 2: she could win, just like you. And it's so funny

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Speaker 2: before you get into it, if you just hear about it,

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Speaker 2: you think, who are these rubes? And you call them rubes?

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Speaker 2: You think I would never fall for something like that.

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Speaker 2: How stupid do you have to be? And then if,

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Speaker 2: like me, you delve into that world and you interview people,

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Speaker 2: and you see kind of who it is. They're not rooms,

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Speaker 2: they're not stupid, they're incredibly intelligent people. And intelligence does

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Speaker 2: not protect you, and skepticism does not protect you. The

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Speaker 2: people who are running your shell game with your full

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Speaker 2: offel in one hand and your money in the other

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Speaker 2: and your three card monty, they're very smart, and they're

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Speaker 2: very good at exploiting human psychology. And it's actually to me,

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Speaker 2: those are kind of the quintessential cons because in that

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Speaker 2: small game, right in that ten minute game, you have

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Speaker 2: all of the elements of long cons that take years.

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Speaker 2: They're all there. It's just this brilliantly orchestrated theater, and

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Speaker 2: they know how to press your buttons, they know how

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Speaker 2: to make you think you can win. They know how

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Speaker 2: to even exploit people who know the game. But there

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Speaker 2: are people who know what three card monty is, what

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Speaker 2: a shell game is. They've read my book. Maybe they

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Speaker 2: know that this is a con and they think they

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Speaker 2: can beat it. I've interviewed those people too.

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Speaker 1: The way she explains the psychology of cons is just fascinating,

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Speaker 1: and it is a reminder that none of us are

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Speaker 1: immune to manipulation, and that con artists are absolute experts

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Speaker 1: at exploiting our cognitive biases and our emotions and knowing

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Speaker 1: exactly what to say to us when to get us

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Speaker 1: to be duped. A lot of her work focuses on

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Speaker 1: human decision making, on why we think it's a good

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Speaker 1: idea to do something, even when you know we might

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Speaker 1: be getting scammed. We think it's a great idea to

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Speaker 1: send that bsp an account number over to somebody, or

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Speaker 1: send out two factor authentication over a text message to

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Speaker 1: a number we've never seen before. So how to defend

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Speaker 1: yourself against stuff like that, Well, Maria talks about it. Mindfulness. Yeah, mindfulness.

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Speaker 1: It can help us identify when we're being emotion manipulated

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Speaker 1: and help us make better choices. And I want us

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Speaker 1: to know what's the role of self awareness in navigating

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Speaker 1: the flood of emotions that can cloud judgment in those

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Speaker 1: high stakes situations.

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Speaker 2: I do try to be mindful and to understand that

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Speaker 2: I can then go back and say, you know, I'm sorry,

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Speaker 2: but unfortunately, if you voted for someone, or if you

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Speaker 2: voted for brexit and then the next day said shit,

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I didn't think that was actually going to

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Speaker 2: pass your shit. I'm sorry it's not going to do anything.

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Speaker 2: It already happened. So I think just taking that time

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Speaker 2: and learning too, more aware of yourself and more aware

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Speaker 2: pow motions affect you, and of the fact that a

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Speaker 2: campaign like the one you described, I mean, that's stoking

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Speaker 2: my fear, that's going straight for that. And when a

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Speaker 2: campaign does that, instead of being afraid, I should say,

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Speaker 2: what the hell, why are you manipulating me? What is

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Speaker 2: the actual policy here? This is why I actually and

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Speaker 2: I don't think this is going to ever be viable.

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Speaker 2: But since you're asking about politics, let me just take

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Speaker 2: a few seconds to say it's why I always say

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Speaker 2: that we should actually just get rid of parties because

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Speaker 2: they short circuit the thought process. You're like, oh, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm a Republican, I'm a Democrat, I'm a liberal, I'm

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Speaker 2: a conservative. This is what I'm supposed to believe, and

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Speaker 2: you don't think the critical thinking doesn't actually happen. Instead,

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Speaker 2: we should actually be forced to read through everyone's platform

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Speaker 2: and to think through for ourselves do I agree with

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Speaker 2: this or not, and then make a decision. Because of that,

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Speaker 2: No one does that.

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Speaker 1: That was Maria Khannikova. I love the way she talked

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Speaker 1: about mindfulness and critical thinking right there. It's a powerful

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Speaker 1: reminder of not only how easily we can be swayed

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Speaker 1: by emotion manipulation, even the smartest of us can have

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Speaker 1: that happen to us. But if we take the time

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Speaker 1: to slow down and reflect and question motives behind messages,

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Speaker 1: not in the like everyone's out to get me away,

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Speaker 1: but yes, take a breath, maybe we can make more

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Speaker 1: informed decisions and resist being influenced by either fear or biases.

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Speaker 1: Her insights intocy making are just fantastic. The psychology of

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Speaker 1: cons is brilliant, The importance of mindfulness really really really

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Speaker 1: fascinating stuff. I thoroughly recommend her books. Thanks for listening

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Speaker 1: to the show. The full conversation is just way it

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Speaker 1: goes for an hour and a bit. It's full of

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Speaker 1: stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: It's amazing.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the show. If you like the show,

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Speaker 1: please share it with someone, follow, subscribe, rate, comment. All

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Speaker 1: those things really help us in ways that I can't

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Speaker 1: even tell you. Like I said earlier, story Club YouTube

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Speaker 1: is live right now. If you're looking for something a

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Speaker 1: great Australian story to go and watch, you can find

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Speaker 1: it right there. Also, grab the new book, So what

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Speaker 1: now what the linkers in the show notes, Thanks for listening,