WEBVTT - How Erin Patterson almost got away with murder: Greg Haddrick Pt.2 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.039 Detective sy aside of life the average person is never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.119 exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.400 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:49.640 Welcome back to Part two of my chat with Greg Hadrick, 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:53.199 the LOGI Award winning screenwriter behind some of the country's 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:56.080 biggest crime series and the author of the book The 0:00:56.160 --> 0:00:59.400 Mushroom Murders. We have been taking an in depth look 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:02.800 at the and Patterson case. In part two, we take 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:06.200 you into the trial. In preparation for writing the book, 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:09.520 Greg witnessed the proceedings of the trial and had access 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:12.720 to the court transcripts, so Greg knows this case better 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:15.839 than most. We talk about the strength of the prosecution 0:01:16.000 --> 0:01:19.039 case and how the defense team attempted to create enough 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:21.880 doubt in the minds of the jury. A lot of 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:24.319 things came up that you may or may not be 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:27.160 aware of. My chat with Greg gave me a much 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:29.920 greater understanding of what went on in one of the 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:32.600 biggest murder trials in the country. If you thought you 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:35.080 knew everything about the case, have a listen to our 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:40.560 conversation and you might be surprised. Greg Hadrick, welcome back 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:43.240 to part two. Thank you Gary of your second time 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:44.319 on Eye Catch Killers. 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:46.839 Greg. 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:50.200 In part one, we were talking about the circumstances leading 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:53.920 up to the victims of this murder getting sick, the 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:58.680 serving of the pie and the taken the hospital, and 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:02.160 Eron's reaction to to what happened. I think we left 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:05.200 off on part two with the police starting to become involved. 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:09.680 That you've had a lunch, four people are critically ill, 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:14.359 and the person that served the lunch is going about okay, 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:18.440 and homicide would notified at that point. 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:21.040 In time they were, and they for about it won't 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:23.240 happen very quickly. I think for about a day they had. 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:28.239 The informant was Detective Steve Eppingstall Yep, and he says 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:30.840 they sort of watched it for a day and then 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:32.120 on the fourth. 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:35.120 There was a comment in your book and it reminded me, 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:37.760 and it's a bit of black humor that comes in 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:40.959 the world of policing and homicide that we're not the nearly. 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:44.720 Homicide because and I had a bit of a chuckle, 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:45.639 and you know, this. 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:48.799 Is a very serious case we're talking about, but that 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:51.960 was very much the narrative in homicide that well, often 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:54.799 we get called about anything that's happened, and you get 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:57.320 that many calls when you're on call, you have to 0:02:57.440 --> 0:02:59.720 draw the line say look, we will come if the 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:02.359 person and is dead. Up until that point in time, 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:04.600 unless it's obvious, we don't go out. 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:06.480 So I had a bit of a chuckle. That was 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:12.200 police jargon, police jargon. Side squad, nearly the homicide squad. 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:19.560 They so they had to. They started the third They 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:22.359 are looking at it and they've been told about it, 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:27.560 and it's a roundabout. Then when Aaron takes the dehydrator 0:03:27.560 --> 0:03:29.440 to the kunar a tip, I think that happens on 0:03:29.440 --> 0:03:32.799 the second. Actually on Wednesday, the second, and I think 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:34.839 she well, she says she took that because she knew 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:37.040 that the child protection workers were doing a home they 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:39.200 had to visit the home environment to check that the 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:42.520 kids would be okay, and so she knew that they 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:45.800 were going to arrive in an hour's time, and there 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:49.560 was a food dehydrator on the kitchen bench. So she 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:51.640 decided get rid of that, get rid of. 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:55.960 That, covering up the evidence. Before we talk how the 0:03:56.000 --> 0:04:00.840 case built against Aaron. The three of the four died 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:06.320 from who consumed the consumed the meal. It became apparent 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:09.360 in the reading of your book and stuff that I've 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:12.480 picked up in the media, how horrendous their deaths were. 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:16.040 And I think, you know, we talk about this and 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:19.280 their errands attracted the attention of people for so many 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:22.880 different reasons. But we got three good people who have 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:24.480 lost their lives in a. 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:30.159 Very valuaful, torturous It was. It was terrible, and Justice 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:32.160 Bill made a point of that in his sentencing remarks 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:36.800 as well, that the language when you say people are 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:40.000 killed by mushrooms makes it sound soft. You know, it's 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:42.760 not a knife, it's not a gun, it's you know, 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:46.599 it's not an axe. It's a mushroom, and yet you know, 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:50.000 the autopsies on poor Galeen Heather showed that their entire 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:52.640 livers were dead, and that most of their bowers dead, 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:56.599 most of their kidneys were They had suffered through being 0:04:56.880 --> 0:05:00.440 killed from the inside out, which is a the book 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:03.400 for me, is almost like being drawn and quartered. It's shocking. 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:05.919 It was horrendous. Yeah, it was horrendous. 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:08.880 And I hadn't even picked up on the fact that 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:12.000 you say it didn't seem like a violent death because 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:15.760 it's mushroom mushroom pie, and you know, we sort of 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:18.080 have a bit of a snicker about that, but we 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:22.159 should really understand the pain that these people are. People 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:24.440 went through and the survivor. 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:26.000 Of course, and indeed, not. 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:28.479 Only he lost his wife, but he was in the 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:30.280 cama for a very long time. 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:33.560 Three weeks I think, yeah, before he was finally excubated, 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:38.160 and then in rehab for weeks after that claims and 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:40.520 I'm sure he's telling the truth. Ian is a very 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:43.279 honest guy that you know his self will never be 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:47.080 the same. Yeah, you know, what they went through was 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:52.560 was a horrific ordeal and it shouldn't be forgotten when 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:57.200 people go mushroom lady and mushroom killer. That that language 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:00.400 softens what was really happening. Very very real. 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:06.400 Victims are very horrendous, horrendous crime. We've got the homicide involved, 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:10.279 We've got they're starting to look at the case. And 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:12.760 when the victims passed away, I would imagine that it 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:15.160 was led by homicide. 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:18.880 Who was two am on. So they're starting, they are 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:23.279 becoming more involved. On the third Steve epping Still said, 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:25.640 you know, we knew by the way they had medical 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:30.240 information that particularly Heather and Gale, we're not going to survive. Yeah, 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:33.240 So they were doing a report for the coroner, blah 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:36.680 blah blah, and then two am on the morning of 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:40.680 the fourth overnight, Heather that's the first one to die, 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:43.240 and at that point it became a homicide case. Okay, 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:46.400 So by seven o'clock that morning or seven thirty that morning, 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:51.920 Steve epping Still and his team are there. So within 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:54.320 five or six hours of Heather dying, it's an active 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:55.000 homicide case. 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:58.159 Okay, Now did they I would imagine they went to 0:06:58.680 --> 0:06:59.320 Aeron's home. 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:02.640 Well, first of all, they got the bank records. They 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:04.560 actually didn't go to They went to Eron same on 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:07.440 the fifth, so this is now. So the sequence of 0:07:07.440 --> 0:07:11.680 events for them was they however, you know, you know 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:12.920 more than I about you know what you've got to 0:07:12.960 --> 0:07:14.640 do to go through to get people's bank records. But 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:16.440 they got them for the previous two months. I think 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:19.600 it was Meg, I forget her name, I should know 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:23.120 was looking through them from the third back, so she 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:25.080 was from the latest day back and. 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:28.640 Looking I would imagine that the purchase of the mushrooms 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:31.680 that it's not just gathering evidence to prove the offense, 0:07:31.680 --> 0:07:33.520 it's to discount version. 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:37.200 Of all of that. And pretty within a couple of hours, 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:40.960 she comes across the transaction where Aaron has gone, you know, 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:43.520 to the local tip to the kuna A transfer station 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:48.360 literally two days before, and she took that to Stephen, 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:50.440 going will she chucked something out? What she chucked out? 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:55.200 They get straight onto the office at the Kunrara transfer station. 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:58.720 He goes to the CCTV and says, because they know 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:02.280 the time of the transactions done, the drop yeah, And 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:04.040 there she is getting out of a car and taking 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:06.200 a big box and putting it in the tip and 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:08.480 so they send a worker down there to get it 0:08:08.520 --> 0:08:12.280 out and it's a it's a dehydrator, and Steve calls 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:14.120 the local cops and says, can you pick it up 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:17.720 for us one thanky, And they went later that afternoon 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:20.920 and picked it up. So before the end of the 0:08:21.000 --> 0:08:24.840 day of the first day of the investigation, they had 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:27.400 Erin's dehydrator that she'd thrown out two days. 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:31.880 Before, okay, and had Aaron mentioned that mushrooms that she 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:34.440 put in the dehydrator. At this stage, she's still claiming 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:38.199 she never foraged anything, right, okay, So she's claiming, and 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:44.560 so the cops then they wait until it's later that 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:46.839 night on the fourth, so it's still happening on the fourth. 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:50.720 The two am on the fourth is when Heather dies. 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:54.560 That day of the fourth is when they get the 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:59.400 dehydrator from the tip. That night of the fourth Gale dies. 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:03.599 Yep. And on the fifth they raid. They go and 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:07.360 search the house. And what did they find anything of 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:12.880 interest at the house, Well, they found several computers which 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:17.559 they were looking for communication devices. They found the manual 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:20.959 of the dehydrator with some other manuals, which was handy. 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:24.040 They were looking for the dinner plates, but by then 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:28.280 there were no gray plates any longer. But they took 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:31.720 photos of everything in the kitchen and took some phones, 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:35.360 not all the phones, but some of the phones, and 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:38.520 of course they asked, they asked Aaron to hand over 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:41.240 the her phone, her main phone she's been using all year, 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:45.160 and that's when she had while the house was being searched. 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:47.360 She switched her phones. 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:53.559 Down for it because this yeah, yeah, so this is 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:55.280 from February. 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:59.440 She bought a new Samsung A twenty three that had 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:01.480 a phone number in that was the phone number that 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:04.959 everyone contacted her, which ended in seven eighty three, and 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:07.880 that's been her main phone throughout all these months that 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:11.679 she's been doing whatever planning has been necessary for this crime. 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:15.880 And in the trial she claims that the phone started 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:18.240 playing up and had a screen which froze a bit 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:22.720 conveniently just a day or two before the raid. That said, 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:25.920 she's still using it and it's still accepting and receiving 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:28.240 text and calls, et cetera, right up until the raid. 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:33.920 And Steve Epping still as the informant, is walking around 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:36.800 with her and mostly sort of accompanying her around the 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:39.520 house while the cops do the search, and at some 0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:42.360 point she manages to take the SIM card out of 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:45.480 that phone. We know it was in it at twelve 0:10:45.559 --> 0:10:47.640 oh one, and we know it was out of it 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:51.079 by one. So sometime in that hour and a half, 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:55.920 she's taken the SIM card out of her main phone, 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:59.440 put the main phone somewhere, and put a SIM card 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:02.520 from her tablet which had a different phone number in 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:06.880 the eight three five into a second handset, which she said, Oh, 0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:09.120 I just wanted to stop Simon from bothering me, and 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:13.320 so I was going to change my phone number anyway, 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:14.880 but she decides to do it in the middle of 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:18.280 a police search. And then when the cops at the 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:21.080 end of the search ask at a syrender her phone, 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:25.680 the one she gives them is Phone B, which she 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:29.360 had also factory reset while she was walking around with 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:33.920 the cops the editing off it, and that's the one 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:37.600 that you see her hand over. And the seven eighty three, 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:39.719 the A twenty three phone, which had been the one 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:42.760 which would have any history of what website she's visited, 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:45.560 what Google search is she's done, et cetera. That is 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:47.360 never found, the cops never find it. 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:52.040 Tells me something about it. I've seen organized crime types 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:56.000 that have got that calmness to seeing there talking as 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:58.559 they're changing the same card in their bone and all that. 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:01.000 But it shows a little bit about her, doesn't it. 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:01.320 It does. 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:05.080 But I suppose callous enough to invite people over and 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:08.559 know you're going to feed them a lethal meal, can 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:12.600 sit there and calmly manage to hold your metal enough 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:14.920 to change a SIM card in the phone. Why police 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:17.640 are executing the search warrant for suspected murder. 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:23.160 Yeah, that's family members. That's pretty extraordinary. Yeah, callous. She 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:27.040 manages to do that. She then puts that seven eight 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:29.440 three SIM into a different into a Nokia phone. And 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:32.120 as I say, we've never have found no one's ever 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:36.160 found that her main phone. The cops take that phone 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:38.120 at that point they think that is her main phone. 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:41.760 She's done that jattically fool them. And it's in a 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:45.520 safe in Steve wapping Stool's office in Spencer Street. And 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:49.800 that night Aaron wonders if they've turned it off or 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:52.640 disconnected it from the Internet, and she does find my 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:55.600 phone search and realizes they haven't, so even though she 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:57.839 doesn't have to because it's already clean, she fact she 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:01.240 resets it remotely again again at five o'clock in the 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:05.920 morning from her bedroom and lean gather. Yeah, that tells 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:09.320 a lot a bit, Yeah, it tells a lot. And 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:11.800 why this is going on, there's some other things that 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:14.520 are coming out. She's not reacting the way that you 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:15.320 would think, like. 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:17.960 If these people are so close to her, the closest 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:20.760 family she's got. She's invited them to lunch and they're 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:24.559 all in hospital on their way to dine or have died, 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:26.560 and she doesn't seem to be reacting. 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:29.760 She never asks how they are, never says can I 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:32.240 go and see them? Can I just you know, maybe 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:36.760 apologize profusely for you know, whatever I did the court, nothing, okay, 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:39.480 never goes near the complains that no one tells her 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:44.360 what's going on, But then she doesn't ask. She could 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:46.800 have easily called Simon and said, how are they going. 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:49.600 It's the cops who arrive and tell her that Heather 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:53.560 and Gale have both died, But even then she doesn't 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:57.400 call anyone to offer any condolences that we were told 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:01.000 at court, yeah at all. And and the first interview 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:03.280 a lot of which you know can out find online. 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:06.160 That happens after that police search. So that search finishes 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:07.880 around about three or four o'clock in the afternoon. 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:10.240 There's a lot of image there of them sitting at 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:13.480 the table that's. 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:15.679 All that search, while that search is happening, and all 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:18.480 of that was presented at court, and you know, while 0:14:18.480 --> 0:14:21.360 she's sitting at that table. I mean, I have the 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:24.040 other thing that the police did I think, I'm not 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:25.960 sure if you've read this in the book, is that 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:29.400 they catalog all the things they took during the search. 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:32.400 But there were a few laptops, a couple of laptops 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:35.400 that were left there, and it did make it look 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:37.720 like it was a bit of a sloppy search and 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:40.120 they missed things that they really should have picked up. 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:43.960 And I just wondered, knowing from other cases, from other 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:45.680 homicide cops here and you know what you think, but 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:52.280 that I suspect that that was deliberate. That poker face, Yes, 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:56.320 those just listening there as a poker face, But I'd 0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:58.880 be very surprised if they hadn't left them there to 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:02.200 see if she continued in from eating behavior. But that 0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:04.640 never came out in court. That's just me from knowledge 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:07.560 of other cases going. No, I don't think that was sloppy. 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:09.680 I think they knew exactly what they were doing there. 0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:14.200 They certainly would have would have had their focus on her. 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:16.800 What about the item taken from the tip that she 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:17.480 disposed of? 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:19.600 So yeah, so she that is now back at one 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:21.920 thaky station, which is where the cops take her after 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:27.440 the search for her interview. So they they start asking, 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:29.680 you know, why she had the lunch and she says, 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:31.240 you know, I just wanted to stay in touch with 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:34.880 my family and my grandparentst. Cetera. Then they talk about 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:38.440 whether she ever foraged for any food. She denies her foraging. 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:41.080 Did you ever dry or dehydrate any food? And they 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:43.880 go and she goes, no, never, and the dehydrator is 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:46.600 in the next room. It's literally they've already got it 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:49.280 and it's in the next room. It's nice locking people 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:52.840 in the lies when you know they're line. Yeah, and 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:55.360 so yeah, he knew that right off the bat and 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:59.160 hang herself. Yeah, And then I think it's a you know, 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:01.080 it's a great interview in the sense that he then 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:03.880 goes back to her presentation at hospital and ask her 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:06.880 about that and when she did end up at Monash 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:09.560 Medical Center for a day and was under observation, what 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:11.760 the doctors thought then and when she found out about 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:15.280 you know, what might have actually caused the other guests 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:17.080 to be unwell. Et ce so goes all of that, 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:18.960 and then he comes back and says, let me go 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:21.880 through what we took from the house. First of all, 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:26.360 this manual for a sunbeam dehydrator. What's that about? And 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:29.520 she denies it again, And I thought, she to me, 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:32.560 I think they've given her every opportunity They've been fair 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:35.600 to think through this. Have a think now, I a're 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:38.200 going to give you another chance. What can you tell us? 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:42.480 And she denies it again and never had one, might 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:45.920 have had one years and years ago. But again those. 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:48.400 Vague gas that give you a little bit of leeway 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:49.680 either way. 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:55.240 And so they finished that interview, and Steve actually drove 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:58.320 it back home that night, and it's that night that 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:01.400 she factory resets the phone remote in the office. But 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:04.280 I think you can tell from from what they've already got. 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.120 But they already recovered the way she behaved in the interview, 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:12.120 the way she lied about everything. They'd be thinking, you're 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:13.680 thinking you've got a case. 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:17.840 But as was highlighted in your dis secting the trial, 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:23.960 the beyond reasonable doubt three murders and the temp murder, 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:28.960 the evidence looks overwhelming, but the element of doubt can 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:30.880 be it was an accident? 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:32.640 Was it an accident? 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:35.720 And the defense have just got to chip away in 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:37.960 the minds of a couple of the jury members, and 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:40.400 all of a sudden, this person. 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:42.640 You get that because you know she's lying because she's 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:45.239 dead scared that she's going to be accused of killing them, 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:48.960 and you go, well, yes, but does that explain everything? 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:53.520 Well, I'm looking at some of the things from breaking 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:56.960 down the notes I've made from reading the book and 0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:01.840 the other media accounts of what's gone on, like the 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:04.719 points you'd be looking at like how strong was her 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:05.800 anger against Simon? 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:09.800 And yeah, she's not going to say I wanted to 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:10.240 kill him? 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:13.399 But what was there evidence there suggesting that there was 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:15.840 a hatred or an anger towards Simon? 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:19.600 Well there was back in December, yeah, but in the 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:22.680 months leading up to the lunch not so much. I mean, yeah, 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:24.400 he'd said no, I don't want to come to lunch 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:28.080 with you, But other than that, there's nothing in particular 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:33.320 the prosecution could point to that illustrated you know, building hatred. Yeah. 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:35.760 It makes it hard because the jury, like we sit 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:38.760 and struggle sometimes with motive or we were talking about 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:42.520 struggling with motive. The jury if yeah, if she's making threats, 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:44.840 you're going to regret what you've done to me and 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:49.240 all that. But so the prosecution can present, well, they've separated, 0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:51.680 but the defense can go, well, there's lots of people 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:55.280 who have separated, and play it off that way. Why 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:58.800 did she invite the guests to lunch, well, claims to 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:03.119 tell them about her cancer diagnosis? How did she explain 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:05.520 another way in the trial. 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:09.960 In the trial, she admitted that she had to admit 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:11.760 that was a lie because there is no record of 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:16.600 any cancer diagnosis, and the prosecution was saying she was 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:18.119 expecting all four of them to be dead, and no 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:23.000 one would know that she'd ever said that. But in 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:24.880 the trial she said, look, I did have a real 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:29.239 medical issue. I've been embarrassed about my weight and it 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:31.960 had been a growing issue, and I'd been balemic for 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:34.800 twenty years and I was stressing me out and I 0:19:34.840 --> 0:19:37.560 had to do something about it. And I'd made a 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:41.360 booking to investigate doing gastric bypass surgery, and that was 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:43.600 really the medical issue that was on my mind. But 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:46.400 I was too embarrassed to actually say that to them, 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:49.320 But I was looking at being in hospital for that surgery, 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:52.639 and this was her giving evidence at the trial. At 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:55.120 the trial, the prosecution, as far as I know, I'm 0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:58.560 pretty sure of this, they had no idea of this 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:03.119 her evidence in chief at the very end of the trial. 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:07.080 Yeah, And just to bring people up the speed, sorry 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:11.560 I've jumped ahead, but how long after the death of 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:13.840 the three people was she charged? 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:17.960 How she was charged on second of November twenty twenty three. 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:20.960 They died in the first week of war, So three months, okay, 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:22.359 three months she's charged. 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:25.320 Now we're sort of fast forward to the trial and 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:28.440 we're at the trial with the trial again, just so 0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:32.600 people understand that an accused person doesn't have to give evidence. 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:36.040 It's up to the prosecutors to prove the case, prove 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:40.320 the allegations against the accused, and then once they've done that, 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:45.000 then the accused presents their defense and the accused doesn't 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:47.080 have to get in the witness box. And very rarely 0:20:47.440 --> 0:20:50.800 do accuse people getting the witness box, especially at murder trials, 0:20:51.040 --> 0:20:54.159 because it opens it up to all sorts of cross 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:58.840 examination and invariably goes bad for them. She chose to 0:20:58.840 --> 0:21:00.919 get in there. Why do you think she chose to 0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:01.480 get in there. 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:07.680 I there were things in her story that I think 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:12.040 only she could explain, she had an explanation for, and 0:21:12.560 --> 0:21:14.880 I think she felt if she had any chance of 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:18.000 being able to create reasonable doubt in the minds of 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:20.800 a jury, it would be her who would be able 0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:23.560 to do that. Okay, I think that's why. 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:26.840