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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Part two of my chat with Greg Hadrick,

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Speaker 1: the LOGI Award winning screenwriter behind some of the country's

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Speaker 1: biggest crime series and the author of the book The

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Speaker 1: Mushroom Murders. We have been taking an in depth look

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Speaker 1: at the and Patterson case. In part two, we take

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Speaker 1: you into the trial. In preparation for writing the book,

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Speaker 1: Greg witnessed the proceedings of the trial and had access

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Speaker 1: to the court transcripts, so Greg knows this case better

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Speaker 1: than most. We talk about the strength of the prosecution

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Speaker 1: case and how the defense team attempted to create enough

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Speaker 1: doubt in the minds of the jury. A lot of

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Speaker 1: things came up that you may or may not be

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Speaker 1: aware of. My chat with Greg gave me a much

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Speaker 1: greater understanding of what went on in one of the

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Speaker 1: biggest murder trials in the country. If you thought you

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Speaker 1: knew everything about the case, have a listen to our

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Speaker 1: conversation and you might be surprised. Greg Hadrick, welcome back

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Speaker 1: to part two. Thank you Gary of your second time

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Speaker 1: on Eye Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Greg.

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Speaker 1: In part one, we were talking about the circumstances leading

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Speaker 1: up to the victims of this murder getting sick, the

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Speaker 1: serving of the pie and the taken the hospital, and

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Speaker 1: Eron's reaction to to what happened. I think we left

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Speaker 1: off on part two with the police starting to become involved.

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Speaker 1: That you've had a lunch, four people are critically ill,

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Speaker 1: and the person that served the lunch is going about okay,

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Speaker 1: and homicide would notified at that point.

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Speaker 2: In time they were, and they for about it won't

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Speaker 2: happen very quickly. I think for about a day they had.

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Speaker 2: The informant was Detective Steve Eppingstall Yep, and he says

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Speaker 2: they sort of watched it for a day and then

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Speaker 2: on the fourth.

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Speaker 1: There was a comment in your book and it reminded me,

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Speaker 1: and it's a bit of black humor that comes in

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Speaker 1: the world of policing and homicide that we're not the nearly.

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Speaker 2: Homicide because and I had a bit of a chuckle,

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Speaker 2: and you know, this.

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Speaker 1: Is a very serious case we're talking about, but that

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Speaker 1: was very much the narrative in homicide that well, often

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Speaker 1: we get called about anything that's happened, and you get

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Speaker 1: that many calls when you're on call, you have to

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Speaker 1: draw the line say look, we will come if the

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Speaker 1: person and is dead. Up until that point in time,

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Speaker 1: unless it's obvious, we don't go out.

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Speaker 2: So I had a bit of a chuckle. That was

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Speaker 2: police jargon, police jargon. Side squad, nearly the homicide squad.

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Speaker 2: They so they had to. They started the third They

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Speaker 2: are looking at it and they've been told about it,

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Speaker 2: and it's a roundabout. Then when Aaron takes the dehydrator

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Speaker 2: to the kunar a tip, I think that happens on

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Speaker 2: the second. Actually on Wednesday, the second, and I think

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Speaker 2: she well, she says she took that because she knew

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Speaker 2: that the child protection workers were doing a home they

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Speaker 2: had to visit the home environment to check that the

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Speaker 2: kids would be okay, and so she knew that they

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Speaker 2: were going to arrive in an hour's time, and there

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Speaker 2: was a food dehydrator on the kitchen bench. So she

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Speaker 2: decided get rid of that, get rid of.

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Speaker 1: That, covering up the evidence. Before we talk how the

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Speaker 1: case built against Aaron. The three of the four died

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Speaker 1: from who consumed the consumed the meal. It became apparent

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Speaker 1: in the reading of your book and stuff that I've

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Speaker 1: picked up in the media, how horrendous their deaths were.

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Speaker 1: And I think, you know, we talk about this and

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Speaker 1: their errands attracted the attention of people for so many

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Speaker 1: different reasons. But we got three good people who have

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Speaker 1: lost their lives in a.

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Speaker 2: Very valuaful, torturous It was. It was terrible, and Justice

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Speaker 2: Bill made a point of that in his sentencing remarks

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Speaker 2: as well, that the language when you say people are

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Speaker 2: killed by mushrooms makes it sound soft. You know, it's

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Speaker 2: not a knife, it's not a gun, it's you know,

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Speaker 2: it's not an axe. It's a mushroom, and yet you know,

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Speaker 2: the autopsies on poor Galeen Heather showed that their entire

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Speaker 2: livers were dead, and that most of their bowers dead,

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Speaker 2: most of their kidneys were They had suffered through being

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Speaker 2: killed from the inside out, which is a the book

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Speaker 2: for me, is almost like being drawn and quartered. It's shocking.

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Speaker 2: It was horrendous. Yeah, it was horrendous.

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Speaker 1: And I hadn't even picked up on the fact that

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Speaker 1: you say it didn't seem like a violent death because

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Speaker 1: it's mushroom mushroom pie, and you know, we sort of

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Speaker 1: have a bit of a snicker about that, but we

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Speaker 1: should really understand the pain that these people are. People

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Speaker 1: went through and the survivor.

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Speaker 2: Of course, and indeed, not.

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Speaker 1: Only he lost his wife, but he was in the

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Speaker 1: cama for a very long time.

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Speaker 2: Three weeks I think, yeah, before he was finally excubated,

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Speaker 2: and then in rehab for weeks after that claims and

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Speaker 2: I'm sure he's telling the truth. Ian is a very

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Speaker 2: honest guy that you know his self will never be

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Speaker 2: the same. Yeah, you know, what they went through was

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Speaker 2: was a horrific ordeal and it shouldn't be forgotten when

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Speaker 2: people go mushroom lady and mushroom killer. That that language

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Speaker 2: softens what was really happening. Very very real.

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Speaker 1: Victims are very horrendous, horrendous crime. We've got the homicide involved,

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Speaker 1: We've got they're starting to look at the case. And

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Speaker 1: when the victims passed away, I would imagine that it

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Speaker 1: was led by homicide.

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Speaker 2: Who was two am on. So they're starting, they are

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Speaker 2: becoming more involved. On the third Steve epping Still said,

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Speaker 2: you know, we knew by the way they had medical

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Speaker 2: information that particularly Heather and Gale, we're not going to survive. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: So they were doing a report for the coroner, blah

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Speaker 2: blah blah, and then two am on the morning of

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Speaker 2: the fourth overnight, Heather that's the first one to die,

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Speaker 2: and at that point it became a homicide case. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So by seven o'clock that morning or seven thirty that morning,

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Speaker 2: Steve epping Still and his team are there. So within

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Speaker 2: five or six hours of Heather dying, it's an active

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Speaker 2: homicide case.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Now did they I would imagine they went to

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Speaker 1: Aeron's home.

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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, they got the bank records. They

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Speaker 2: actually didn't go to They went to Eron same on

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Speaker 2: the fifth, so this is now. So the sequence of

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Speaker 2: events for them was they however, you know, you know

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Speaker 2: more than I about you know what you've got to

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Speaker 2: do to go through to get people's bank records. But

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Speaker 2: they got them for the previous two months. I think

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Speaker 2: it was Meg, I forget her name, I should know

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Speaker 2: was looking through them from the third back, so she

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Speaker 2: was from the latest day back and.

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Speaker 1: Looking I would imagine that the purchase of the mushrooms

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Speaker 1: that it's not just gathering evidence to prove the offense,

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Speaker 1: it's to discount version.

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Speaker 2: Of all of that. And pretty within a couple of hours,

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Speaker 2: she comes across the transaction where Aaron has gone, you know,

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Speaker 2: to the local tip to the kuna A transfer station

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Speaker 2: literally two days before, and she took that to Stephen,

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Speaker 2: going will she chucked something out? What she chucked out?

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Speaker 2: They get straight onto the office at the Kunrara transfer station.

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Speaker 2: He goes to the CCTV and says, because they know

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Speaker 2: the time of the transactions done, the drop yeah, And

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Speaker 2: there she is getting out of a car and taking

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Speaker 2: a big box and putting it in the tip and

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Speaker 2: so they send a worker down there to get it

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Speaker 2: out and it's a it's a dehydrator, and Steve calls

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Speaker 2: the local cops and says, can you pick it up

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Speaker 2: for us one thanky, And they went later that afternoon

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Speaker 2: and picked it up. So before the end of the

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Speaker 2: day of the first day of the investigation, they had

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Speaker 2: Erin's dehydrator that she'd thrown out two days.

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Speaker 1: Before, okay, and had Aaron mentioned that mushrooms that she

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Speaker 1: put in the dehydrator. At this stage, she's still claiming

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Speaker 1: she never foraged anything, right, okay, So she's claiming, and

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Speaker 1: so the cops then they wait until it's later that

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Speaker 1: night on the fourth, so it's still happening on the fourth.

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Speaker 1: The two am on the fourth is when Heather dies.

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Speaker 1: That day of the fourth is when they get the

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Speaker 1: dehydrator from the tip. That night of the fourth Gale dies.

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Speaker 2: Yep. And on the fifth they raid. They go and

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Speaker 2: search the house. And what did they find anything of

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Speaker 2: interest at the house, Well, they found several computers which

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Speaker 2: they were looking for communication devices. They found the manual

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Speaker 2: of the dehydrator with some other manuals, which was handy.

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Speaker 2: They were looking for the dinner plates, but by then

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Speaker 2: there were no gray plates any longer. But they took

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Speaker 2: photos of everything in the kitchen and took some phones,

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Speaker 2: not all the phones, but some of the phones, and

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Speaker 2: of course they asked, they asked Aaron to hand over

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Speaker 2: the her phone, her main phone she's been using all year,

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Speaker 2: and that's when she had while the house was being searched.

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Speaker 2: She switched her phones.

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Speaker 1: Down for it because this yeah, yeah, so this is

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Speaker 1: from February.

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Speaker 2: She bought a new Samsung A twenty three that had

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Speaker 2: a phone number in that was the phone number that

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Speaker 2: everyone contacted her, which ended in seven eighty three, and

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Speaker 2: that's been her main phone throughout all these months that

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Speaker 2: she's been doing whatever planning has been necessary for this crime.

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Speaker 2: And in the trial she claims that the phone started

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Speaker 2: playing up and had a screen which froze a bit

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Speaker 2: conveniently just a day or two before the raid. That said,

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Speaker 2: she's still using it and it's still accepting and receiving

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Speaker 2: text and calls, et cetera, right up until the raid.

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Speaker 2: And Steve Epping still as the informant, is walking around

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Speaker 2: with her and mostly sort of accompanying her around the

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Speaker 2: house while the cops do the search, and at some

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Speaker 2: point she manages to take the SIM card out of

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Speaker 2: that phone. We know it was in it at twelve

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Speaker 2: oh one, and we know it was out of it

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Speaker 2: by one. So sometime in that hour and a half,

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Speaker 2: she's taken the SIM card out of her main phone,

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Speaker 2: put the main phone somewhere, and put a SIM card

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Speaker 2: from her tablet which had a different phone number in

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Speaker 2: the eight three five into a second handset, which she said, Oh,

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Speaker 2: I just wanted to stop Simon from bothering me, and

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Speaker 2: so I was going to change my phone number anyway,

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Speaker 2: but she decides to do it in the middle of

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Speaker 2: a police search. And then when the cops at the

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Speaker 2: end of the search ask at a syrender her phone,

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Speaker 2: the one she gives them is Phone B, which she

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Speaker 2: had also factory reset while she was walking around with

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Speaker 2: the cops the editing off it, and that's the one

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Speaker 2: that you see her hand over. And the seven eighty three,

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Speaker 2: the A twenty three phone, which had been the one

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Speaker 2: which would have any history of what website she's visited,

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Speaker 2: what Google search is she's done, et cetera. That is

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Speaker 2: never found, the cops never find it.

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Speaker 1: Tells me something about it. I've seen organized crime types

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Speaker 1: that have got that calmness to seeing there talking as

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Speaker 1: they're changing the same card in their bone and all that.

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Speaker 1: But it shows a little bit about her, doesn't it.

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Speaker 2: It does.

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Speaker 1: But I suppose callous enough to invite people over and

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Speaker 1: know you're going to feed them a lethal meal, can

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Speaker 1: sit there and calmly manage to hold your metal enough

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Speaker 1: to change a SIM card in the phone. Why police

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Speaker 1: are executing the search warrant for suspected murder.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's family members. That's pretty extraordinary. Yeah, callous. She

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Speaker 2: manages to do that. She then puts that seven eight

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Speaker 2: three SIM into a different into a Nokia phone. And

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Speaker 2: as I say, we've never have found no one's ever

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Speaker 2: found that her main phone. The cops take that phone

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Speaker 2: at that point they think that is her main phone.

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Speaker 2: She's done that jattically fool them. And it's in a

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Speaker 2: safe in Steve wapping Stool's office in Spencer Street. And

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Speaker 2: that night Aaron wonders if they've turned it off or

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Speaker 2: disconnected it from the Internet, and she does find my

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Speaker 2: phone search and realizes they haven't, so even though she

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Speaker 2: doesn't have to because it's already clean, she fact she

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Speaker 2: resets it remotely again again at five o'clock in the

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Speaker 2: morning from her bedroom and lean gather. Yeah, that tells

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Speaker 2: a lot a bit, Yeah, it tells a lot. And

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Speaker 2: why this is going on, there's some other things that

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Speaker 2: are coming out. She's not reacting the way that you

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Speaker 2: would think, like.

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Speaker 1: If these people are so close to her, the closest

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Speaker 1: family she's got. She's invited them to lunch and they're

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Speaker 1: all in hospital on their way to dine or have died,

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Speaker 1: and she doesn't seem to be reacting.

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Speaker 2: She never asks how they are, never says can I

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Speaker 2: go and see them? Can I just you know, maybe

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Speaker 2: apologize profusely for you know, whatever I did the court, nothing, okay,

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Speaker 2: never goes near the complains that no one tells her

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Speaker 2: what's going on, But then she doesn't ask. She could

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Speaker 2: have easily called Simon and said, how are they going.

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Speaker 2: It's the cops who arrive and tell her that Heather

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Speaker 2: and Gale have both died, But even then she doesn't

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Speaker 2: call anyone to offer any condolences that we were told

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Speaker 2: at court, yeah at all. And and the first interview

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Speaker 2: a lot of which you know can out find online.

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Speaker 2: That happens after that police search. So that search finishes

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Speaker 2: around about three or four o'clock in the afternoon.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of image there of them sitting at

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Speaker 1: the table that's.

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Speaker 2: All that search, while that search is happening, and all

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Speaker 2: of that was presented at court, and you know, while

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Speaker 2: she's sitting at that table. I mean, I have the

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Speaker 2: other thing that the police did I think, I'm not

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Speaker 2: sure if you've read this in the book, is that

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Speaker 2: they catalog all the things they took during the search.

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Speaker 2: But there were a few laptops, a couple of laptops

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Speaker 2: that were left there, and it did make it look

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Speaker 2: like it was a bit of a sloppy search and

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Speaker 2: they missed things that they really should have picked up.

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Speaker 2: And I just wondered, knowing from other cases, from other

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Speaker 2: homicide cops here and you know what you think, but

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Speaker 2: that I suspect that that was deliberate. That poker face, Yes,

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Speaker 2: those just listening there as a poker face, But I'd

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Speaker 2: be very surprised if they hadn't left them there to

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Speaker 2: see if she continued in from eating behavior. But that

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Speaker 2: never came out in court. That's just me from knowledge

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Speaker 2: of other cases going. No, I don't think that was sloppy.

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Speaker 2: I think they knew exactly what they were doing there.

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Speaker 1: They certainly would have would have had their focus on her.

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Speaker 1: What about the item taken from the tip that she

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Speaker 1: disposed of?

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Speaker 2: So yeah, so she that is now back at one

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Speaker 2: thaky station, which is where the cops take her after

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Speaker 2: the search for her interview. So they they start asking,

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Speaker 2: you know, why she had the lunch and she says,

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Speaker 2: you know, I just wanted to stay in touch with

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Speaker 2: my family and my grandparentst. Cetera. Then they talk about

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Speaker 2: whether she ever foraged for any food. She denies her foraging.

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Speaker 2: Did you ever dry or dehydrate any food? And they

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Speaker 2: go and she goes, no, never, and the dehydrator is

294
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Speaker 2: in the next room. It's literally they've already got it

295
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Speaker 2: and it's in the next room. It's nice locking people

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Speaker 2: in the lies when you know they're line. Yeah, and

297
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Speaker 2: so yeah, he knew that right off the bat and

298
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Speaker 2: hang herself. Yeah, And then I think it's a you know,

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Speaker 2: it's a great interview in the sense that he then

300
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Speaker 2: goes back to her presentation at hospital and ask her

301
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Speaker 2: about that and when she did end up at Monash

302
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Speaker 2: Medical Center for a day and was under observation, what

303
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Speaker 2: the doctors thought then and when she found out about

304
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Speaker 2: you know, what might have actually caused the other guests

305
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Speaker 2: to be unwell. Et ce so goes all of that,

306
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Speaker 2: and then he comes back and says, let me go

307
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Speaker 2: through what we took from the house. First of all,

308
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Speaker 2: this manual for a sunbeam dehydrator. What's that about? And

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Speaker 2: she denies it again, And I thought, she to me,

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Speaker 2: I think they've given her every opportunity They've been fair

311
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Speaker 2: to think through this. Have a think now, I a're

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Speaker 2: going to give you another chance. What can you tell us?

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Speaker 2: And she denies it again and never had one, might

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Speaker 2: have had one years and years ago. But again those.

315
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Speaker 1: Vague gas that give you a little bit of leeway

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Speaker 1: either way.

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Speaker 2: And so they finished that interview, and Steve actually drove

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Speaker 2: it back home that night, and it's that night that

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Speaker 2: she factory resets the phone remote in the office. But

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Speaker 2: I think you can tell from from what they've already got.

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Speaker 2: But they already recovered the way she behaved in the interview,

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Speaker 2: the way she lied about everything. They'd be thinking, you're

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Speaker 2: thinking you've got a case.

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Speaker 1: But as was highlighted in your dis secting the trial,

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Speaker 1: the beyond reasonable doubt three murders and the temp murder,

326
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Speaker 1: the evidence looks overwhelming, but the element of doubt can

327
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Speaker 1: be it was an accident?

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Speaker 2: Was it an accident?

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Speaker 1: And the defense have just got to chip away in

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Speaker 1: the minds of a couple of the jury members, and

331
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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, this person.

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Speaker 2: You get that because you know she's lying because she's

333
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Speaker 2: dead scared that she's going to be accused of killing them,

334
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Speaker 2: and you go, well, yes, but does that explain everything?

335
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Speaker 1: Well, I'm looking at some of the things from breaking

336
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Speaker 1: down the notes I've made from reading the book and

337
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Speaker 1: the other media accounts of what's gone on, like the

338
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Speaker 1: points you'd be looking at like how strong was her

339
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Speaker 1: anger against Simon?

340
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Speaker 2: And yeah, she's not going to say I wanted to

341
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Speaker 2: kill him?

342
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Speaker 1: But what was there evidence there suggesting that there was

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Speaker 1: a hatred or an anger towards Simon?

344
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Speaker 2: Well there was back in December, yeah, but in the

345
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Speaker 2: months leading up to the lunch not so much. I mean, yeah,

346
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Speaker 2: he'd said no, I don't want to come to lunch

347
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Speaker 2: with you, But other than that, there's nothing in particular

348
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Speaker 2: the prosecution could point to that illustrated you know, building hatred. Yeah.

349
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Speaker 1: It makes it hard because the jury, like we sit

350
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Speaker 1: and struggle sometimes with motive or we were talking about

351
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Speaker 1: struggling with motive. The jury if yeah, if she's making threats,

352
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Speaker 1: you're going to regret what you've done to me and

353
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Speaker 1: all that. But so the prosecution can present, well, they've separated,

354
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Speaker 1: but the defense can go, well, there's lots of people

355
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Speaker 1: who have separated, and play it off that way. Why

356
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Speaker 1: did she invite the guests to lunch, well, claims to

357
00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:03,119
Speaker 1: tell them about her cancer diagnosis? How did she explain

358
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,520
Speaker 1: another way in the trial.

359
00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,960
Speaker 2: In the trial, she admitted that she had to admit

360
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:11,760
Speaker 2: that was a lie because there is no record of

361
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Speaker 2: any cancer diagnosis, and the prosecution was saying she was

362
00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:18,119
Speaker 2: expecting all four of them to be dead, and no

363
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:23,000
Speaker 2: one would know that she'd ever said that. But in

364
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:24,880
Speaker 2: the trial she said, look, I did have a real

365
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:29,239
Speaker 2: medical issue. I've been embarrassed about my weight and it

366
00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:31,960
Speaker 2: had been a growing issue, and I'd been balemic for

367
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,800
Speaker 2: twenty years and I was stressing me out and I

368
00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,560
Speaker 2: had to do something about it. And I'd made a

369
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:41,360
Speaker 2: booking to investigate doing gastric bypass surgery, and that was

370
00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:43,600
Speaker 2: really the medical issue that was on my mind. But

371
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Speaker 2: I was too embarrassed to actually say that to them,

372
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Speaker 2: But I was looking at being in hospital for that surgery,

373
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Speaker 2: and this was her giving evidence at the trial. At

374
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Speaker 2: the trial, the prosecution, as far as I know, I'm

375
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Speaker 2: pretty sure of this, they had no idea of this

376
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Speaker 2: her evidence in chief at the very end of the trial.

377
00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:07,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, And just to bring people up the speed, sorry

378
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:11,560
Speaker 1: I've jumped ahead, but how long after the death of

379
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:13,840
Speaker 1: the three people was she charged?

380
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,960
Speaker 2: How she was charged on second of November twenty twenty three.

381
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Speaker 2: They died in the first week of war, So three months, okay,

382
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:22,359
Speaker 2: three months she's charged.

383
00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,320
Speaker 1: Now we're sort of fast forward to the trial and

384
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,440
Speaker 1: we're at the trial with the trial again, just so

385
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:32,600
Speaker 1: people understand that an accused person doesn't have to give evidence.

386
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,040
Speaker 1: It's up to the prosecutors to prove the case, prove

387
00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:40,320
Speaker 1: the allegations against the accused, and then once they've done that,

388
00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:45,000
Speaker 1: then the accused presents their defense and the accused doesn't

389
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,080
Speaker 1: have to get in the witness box. And very rarely

390
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,800
Speaker 1: do accuse people getting the witness box, especially at murder trials,

391
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,159
Speaker 1: because it opens it up to all sorts of cross

392
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 1: examination and invariably goes bad for them. She chose to

393
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:00,919
Speaker 1: get in there. Why do you think she chose to

394
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:01,480
Speaker 1: get in there.

395
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:07,680
Speaker 2: I there were things in her story that I think

396
00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:12,040
Speaker 2: only she could explain, she had an explanation for, and

397
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:14,880
Speaker 2: I think she felt if she had any chance of

398
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,000
Speaker 2: being able to create reasonable doubt in the minds of

399
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,800
Speaker 2: a jury, it would be her who would be able

400
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,560
Speaker 2: to do that. Okay, I think that's why.

401
00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,840
Speaker 1: So your reading of it listening to it following it

402
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,879
Speaker 1: was she was pretty well jammed up after the prosecution

403
00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,679
Speaker 1: finished their case and she had to present something, and

404
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 1: she had no witnesses to come into saying no she

405
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,040
Speaker 1: was in the state at the time or whatever it was.

406
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 1: In that type of case, she had no one except

407
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,520
Speaker 1: for herself who could explain it, and so rolled the

408
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 1: dice and thought that she get away of it. Getting

409
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,440
Speaker 1: back to what you were talking about before the cancer.

410
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,639
Speaker 1: She agrees it wasn't cancer, but what it was it

411
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,720
Speaker 1: was an embarrassing medical condition, and she had actually booked

412
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:00,560
Speaker 1: in to get Yeah.

413
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:05,360
Speaker 2: A gastric band? Is it? What's it called? Gastric When

414
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:12,720
Speaker 2: did you have it? Last? So during her evidence in chief,

415
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,439
Speaker 2: when Colin Mandy was asking her these questions, she just

416
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,920
Speaker 2: said she was giving her history of being balamic in

417
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,040
Speaker 2: her history of having terribly embarrassing issues with her with

418
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:27,399
Speaker 2: her weight and needing to address it, and that she

419
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:32,000
Speaker 2: had a plan to do gastric bypass surgery. That's that's

420
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 2: all in her evidence in chief. When Nanette Rodgers was

421
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,560
Speaker 2: cross examining her, this is in the last two or

422
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:42,840
Speaker 2: three days of the trial, and she she's challenging you

423
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:47,240
Speaker 2: know what she said the lunch was about, and gets

424
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,080
Speaker 2: to the point where, you know, this apparent plan for

425
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 2: gastric surgery, and Nannette says something like, but it was

426
00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:58,920
Speaker 2: nothing more than a plan, was it. You know, you're

427
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,240
Speaker 2: just sort of making this up. And she said, no,

428
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 2: I haven't. I had an appointment, and that really threw silence.

429
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 2: It was like what and she said, no, we're with

430
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,280
Speaker 2: and you know, with the Enrich Clinic in Melbourne. I

431
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,040
Speaker 2: had an appointment to see someone to discuss this surgery.

432
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,240
Speaker 2: And that was a that was a shoe drop moment

433
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,199
Speaker 2: in the trial because the prosecution did not know that

434
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 2: at all, and so they had that was on a

435
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,439
Speaker 2: Friday morning, and they literally had Friday afternoon to try

436
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,119
Speaker 2: and figure out what the hell that was all about,

437
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:35,199
Speaker 2: because they only had another day we finished. Yeah, and

438
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,120
Speaker 2: even I remember listening to it and thinking, that does

439
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:42,479
Speaker 2: put it different if she really had an appointment to

440
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 2: do this, you know, with a surgeon who was going

441
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 2: to do this surgery for her, and she's given this history,

442
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, you're thinking, oh, my god, well

443
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:51,720
Speaker 2: that that does explain the lunch.

444
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,200
Speaker 1: That's where it's on that delicate balance, isn't it, because

445
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,359
Speaker 1: that you buy into that? And yet oh, she's telling

446
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 1: the truth there And I understand she's embarrassed to talk

447
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:02,879
Speaker 1: about the nature of the surgery, but it was a

448
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 1: medical condition. That's all explainable, So says little things that

449
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:08,360
Speaker 1: can make a difference, they can.

450
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, this is at the very end

451
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 2: of the trial, and you know, I'm trying to think

452
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 2: like a duror, going, well, now I've got to relook

453
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 2: at a whole host of other bits of evidence where

454
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 2: you went. You know, it's ninety percent sure, but there's

455
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 2: a ten percent chance this could have happened. But if

456
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,439
Speaker 2: if they can prove that she was going to have

457
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 2: this surgery.

458
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:32,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's credibility to the lunch, to her version of events.

459
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,640
Speaker 1: So the prosecutors would have scrambled I would imagine there'd

460
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:37,639
Speaker 1: be people running out of the court and making call it.

461
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 2: Imagine. They did scramble, and they scrambled very well, and

462
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 2: because what they discovered was that Aaron did have an appointment.

463
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 2: What she'd remembered is that she had made an appointment

464
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 2: with the Enridge Clinic and she had What Aaron didn't

465
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 2: realize was that the Enridge Clinic doesn't offer that surgery. Right, Okay,

466
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 2: that's the problem. So again it was a big problem,

467
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 2: and you go, oh, so she wasn't telling the truth.

468
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 2: It was she's well again, as you know people who

469
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 2: are so good at lying, there was there was part

470
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 2: of it was truth Smidge and the truth Smidge and

471
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 2: the truth and the rest wasn't. So yes, she was.

472
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,400
Speaker 2: She made a booking to Enrich to do something. Now

473
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:24,400
Speaker 2: it's mostly and this is no apparently highly respected clinic,

474
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 2: but it's mostly cosmetic surgery. It's it's not you know,

475
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 2: genuine surgical procedures for for serious health issues. How did

476
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 2: that play out in court? Did they set the trap

477
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 2: for him? They did? They came back first thing Monday morning,

478
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 2: and Nanette did a string of questions which sort of

479
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 2: let her down the trap and then finally was saying,

480
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 2: but he do you agree that's you know what Enrich offers.

481
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 2: He is their website blah blah blah, and can you

482
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 2: see that it does not offer gastric bypass surgery? And

483
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 2: she went, oh, well, I thought it did. And then

484
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 2: then it took Colin Mandy in his re examination on

485
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 2: the very last day of the trial to say that

486
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 2: there was it didn't even now offer lip per suction.

487
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 2: But back then there was one of one of their

488
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 2: practitioners who did off a liper section, so he was

489
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 2: trying to sort of to soften soften the lie and

490
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 2: honest mistake. It was honest mistake. Yeah, and she would

491
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 2: have looked at this, but there were just too many

492
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:27,920
Speaker 2: times where you try and take care in it her word,

493
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 2: and then you realize you can't.

494
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 1: In the way she responded when she was called out,

495
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 1: is there still that calmness about her, like it's not

496
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: sort of collapse ahead or no?

497
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,199
Speaker 2: There was no, There wasn't. There was never a collapsed

498
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,120
Speaker 2: head moment. There was never oh my god, I'm done

499
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 2: for just I've lost a point here. I'll keep going,

500
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 2: keep adding.

501
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,879
Speaker 1: A couple of other things, like serving of the food

502
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: gray plates a separate plate for her.

503
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,879
Speaker 2: Did that play out in the trol Yeah, that there

504
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 2: was a lot of discussion about the plates, because she

505
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 2: obviously claimed she never had four gray plates, and Ian

506
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 2: was adamant. Ian was adamant that she had. And the

507
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 2: plates the police found during this search, and I think

508
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 2: there are two black ones, and there are two black

509
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 2: and red ones, and there was one there was one

510
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,440
Speaker 2: that her daughter had made at kindergarten somewhere which was

511
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 2: sort of multicolored one. There weren't many and in fact,

512
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 2: Simon said to the police, he said she never did

513
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 2: have many plates, but those were the only ones the

514
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,640
Speaker 2: police could find when they did their search, and they

515
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 2: matched what Aaron had said she'd put the beef Rington's on,

516
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,400
Speaker 2: not at all what Ian said she put the beef

517
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 2: Wellington on. And Ian just he was a very credible witness,

518
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 2: particularly because you know, he couldn't remember exactly what people

519
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 2: said in the conversation blah blah blah. When he wasn't

520
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 2: entirely sure. He was quite honest about saying, I'm not

521
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 2: entirely sure, but when he was sure, he just had

522
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 2: lock it in a quiet certainty that he just couldn't resist,

523
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 2: And then what they jumping forward a little bit. What

524
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 2: we didn't know until all the pre trial rulings on

525
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 2: admissibility in admissibility of evidence, which were lifted four weeks

526
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 2: after the trial. The jury never got to hear this

527
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 2: during the trial proper. But the minute the lunch was

528
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 2: finished at three o'clock, when Don and Gale and Ian

529
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 2: and Heather drove off and the boys are in the

530
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 2: TV computer room, she took a box of rubbish to

531
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 2: the tip and that happened within fifteen minutes of the

532
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 2: lunch ending.

533
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: And are you privy to the logic of the ruling

534
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 1: of that being excluded.

535
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 2: To believe yes, that has been that's been released, that

536
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 2: they're not trying to hide it. I believe it's because

537
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 2: when the police found out about that trip to the tip,

538
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 2: it was about a week and a week and a

539
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 2: half later, and they couldn't recover what she'd thrown out.

540
00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,040
Speaker 2: So because there was no evidence that it was just

541
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 2: innocuous so it was just food scraps, they said it

542
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 2: to be too prejudicial to put it in, thinking it

543
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 2: might have been something prejudicial.

544
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: Because next time she took something to the tip, it

545
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: was definitely.

546
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 2: It definitely was.

547
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I suppose we do in those protections in place, but.

548
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 2: I wonder, I mean, I suppose that.

549
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: Sorry, I'm trying to be reasonable for you, Greg, I

550
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 1: just wanted to become across race.

551
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 2: I can I can understand that. I can understand the

552
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 2: reasoning behind that I and this is I haven't done

553
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:38,719
Speaker 2: in big legal surveys and forensic examination of the of it,

554
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 2: but just listening to the number of crime cases I've

555
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 2: listened to and followed, the law and judges are very

556
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 2: strong on saying to a jury, you are the arbiters

557
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 2: of fact. You are the ones who decide what is

558
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 2: and is in fact. Let me deal with what law

559
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 2: is and make sure it's a fair trial, but you

560
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 2: decide what's fact. Time and again, you guys, they can

561
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 2: only decide what's fact and what's presented to them. And

562
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 2: a lot of times, like with that trip to the

563
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:12,239
Speaker 2: tip immediately after lunch, why couldn't you say to a

564
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 2: jury it might have been innocuous, we have no evidence,

565
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 2: but it did happen, and let the jury be the

566
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 2: arbitis the fact that you say they are.

567
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: Greg, I'm with you on that. We've got the jury system,

568
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: because we want to rely on being judged by your

569
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 1: peers on the available evidence, and they're put on this

570
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: pedestal to make judgment on another one of their peers,

571
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 1: but they're only provided limited informations.

572
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think if you're you either trust them

573
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 2: that they understand what prejudice and biases and know how

574
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 2: to take that into account, or you don't. And if

575
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 2: you do, I think I think more should be ruled

576
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 2: and admissible than the law currently allows. That's not to

577
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 2: say it should be open slather and everything, but I

578
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 2: think at the moment the pendulums just swung a bit too.

579
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 1: Much, and the judges in their judges summing up, give

580
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 1: the warnings the necessary warnings, and they could explain to

581
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 1: the way the way that you just explain it. But

582
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 1: it's frustrating from a policing point of view watching seeing

583
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: the jury sit there and you can see them literally

584
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: scratch their heads sometimes and there's something missing here. We

585
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 1: know something missing. Why was that just cut off? Or

586
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,959
Speaker 1: why have we been excluded from the court. We're judging

587
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: whether this person is guilty of murder and they've just

588
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: had three hours of v legal argument and we've been excluded.

589
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 1: Shouldn't we be part of that? Shouldn't we?

590
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 2: I think that's it's interesting my reading and my understanding

591
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 2: I could be corrected on this is that the jury

592
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 2: the jury system began hundreds of years ago because you

593
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 2: would be tried not only by your peers and by

594
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 2: your community, but by people who knew you. Yes, And

595
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 2: the irony is now you can only be tried by

596
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 2: jurors who don't know you. Yeah. And and in fact,

597
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 2: if you have any connection with the accused of their relatives,

598
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 2: et cetera, then you've got to excuse yourself from the jury.

599
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 2: If you have any connection with any of the witnesses,

600
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 2: you excuse yourself from the jury. So the jury, who

601
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 2: are not allowed to talk or interact with people, are

602
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 2: meant to judge facts purely on a highly curated set

603
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 2: of evidence which is presented to presented to them. Whereas

604
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 2: the system began with yeah, I know Joe blow over there,

605
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 2: and you know, I know you don't get aware of them,

606
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 2: and I got aware of them. And then you've got

607
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 2: twelve of us here, all have different relationships with them.

608
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 2: Do you reckon.

609
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: Did he punch out John on the pub or not?

610
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: I think the evolution of the jury system. I think

611
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 1: we need to evolve, especially now with you're covering the crimes,

612
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 1: where the warning there you're not to read the afternoon paper,

613
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: you're not to watch the news. Well, now we're gone

614
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: past that. We have gone going to happen. So we

615
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 1: know you're going to look and the moment you walk

616
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: out of this call room, you're going to google how

617
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: this case is going and how has it been reported.

618
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 1: But as a DURA you can only rely on what's

619
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 1: presented in the court. That should be enough of a warning.

620
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: It should be enough.

621
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's I just I guess I'm just coming

622
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 2: up from the point of view, shouldn't shouldn't we start

623
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 2: a conversation about whether the system can be reviewed and

624
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 2: improved a bit. And it's a system that I fully support, yes, completely,

625
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 2: I just think it could be better.

626
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: Well, you talk the pendulum, and sometimes the pendulum have

627
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: swung too far and we need to bring it back

628
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 1: back a bit. But I have long held a bugbear

629
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 1: of the jurors aren't presented with all the facts, and

630
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: if they are to adjudicate on the facts given, provide

631
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,239
Speaker 1: them all the facts. That's right, and then they can

632
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 1: put what weight they think necessary on it. But yeah,

633
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 1: it's an interesting argument or interesting discussion. Her claims of

634
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 1: having diarrhea, this trapter didn't it because we talked briefly

635
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: in in part one that she said the onset of

636
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: diary came in the afternoon, and whereas if it's from

637
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: the ingredients that the others were suffering, the diary that

638
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 1: was eight to ten hours later, and that so then

639
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 1: she's left with this conundrum of yeah, I said I

640
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 1: was sick, but now I'm not that sick, And she

641
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 1: started to give different versions of events of how sick

642
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 1: she was or no, she got really sick. Later talk

643
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 1: us through that, because that was a miscalculation.

644
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 2: On that home. I think it was a miscalculation on

645
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 2: her behalf, because Simon was pretty adamant that, you know,

646
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 2: on the phone the first time they talked, she said

647
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 2: that she initially started feeling a little bit woozy four

648
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 2: thirty ish in the afternoon. Now, even if he's got

649
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,760
Speaker 2: that a little bit wrong, she was an normal gastor

650
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 2: reaction to a lunch at one o'clock would be about that.

651
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 2: And then, as I said, she said to too many

652
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 2: people that she was suffering from diarrhea when she drove

653
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,879
Speaker 2: her son's mate home. That she sort of locked into

654
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,879
Speaker 2: a version of that, even though she was the master

655
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 2: sort of watering things down, you know, when she's in

656
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 2: the backtracking, Yeah, just walking back a little bit, when

657
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 2: she's giving her evidence and building up what she was

658
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 2: saying happened after midnight on Sunday night. That's when three

659
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 2: days later she first used of the word explosive diary,

660
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 2: which was I think to Salianne Atkinson, to the health expert.

661
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 2: And so now she's trying to make it sound like

662
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:37,919
Speaker 2: her strong symptoms didn't happen un till roughly the same time. Yeah,

663
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 2: but you could never get away from the fact that

664
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 2: she told too many people that really by seven o'clock

665
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 2: she was happened happened earlier. So then Colin Mandy's only

666
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 2: answer to that was he'd done, in my mind, a

667
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 2: very good job of he did try and cover that.

668
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 2: He did do uncover up very well. So she was

669
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 2: she was saying, she added, this is now let's go

670
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 2: back to nine o'clock in the morning, nine thirty in

671
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 2: the morning, and she's making the mushroom mixture for the

672
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:07,919
Speaker 2: beef Wellington's a little bit of a tast, a little

673
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,760
Speaker 2: bit of a taste test, and realizes that they'd really

674
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:12,959
Speaker 2: bit bland and don't have any flavor, and that's why

675
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 2: she adds the dried mushrooms from the Asian grosser from

676
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 2: some shop you can't remember. Then comes the issue, well,

677
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 2: most home cooks, if you've started tasting something and you

678
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 2: think it's not doesn't have the right flavor, and you

679
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 2: add something to it, you taste again. Yes, that's what

680
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 2: almost everybody does. If you're not a taster, fine, but

681
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 2: if you are tasting to check the flavor and you

682
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 2: add something, you taste again. The defense couldn't say that

683
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 2: at the beginning because the question people were why isn't

684
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,399
Speaker 2: she dead, you know, or at least in intensive care

685
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 2: if she was tasting, if she was adding death cap

686
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 2: mushrooms to it, So that was skipped over until Colin

687
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 2: Mandy realized at the end of the trial. I think

688
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 2: he realized at the end of the trial. Certain how

689
00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 2: it came out that one explanation for her feeling diarrhea

690
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,839
Speaker 2: at seven o'clock is that she had tasted a bit.

691
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 2: So all of a sudden tasting is mentioned on the

692
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 2: second last day of the trial, just the clock back

693
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,320
Speaker 2: and you go, well, okay, so, but it must have

694
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 2: tasted because she had no liver damage. And this is

695
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 2: where in terms of just just doubt, all you need

696
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 2: is doubt. So the defense colin Man had also accessed

697
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:31,320
Speaker 2: one journal from Germany, and there's there's more research into

698
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 2: death cap mushrooms over in europecause there's more of them.

699
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 2: There's more de cap mushrooms that say there are four stages,

700
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 2: and just because you eat the same thing doesn't mean

701
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 2: everyone ends up with the same stage. You can have

702
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 2: someone just having very small reaction and someone else is

703
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,399
Speaker 2: eating the same thing have a different reaction. And he

704
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 2: was using that to try and cast doubt in the

705
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 2: jury's mind that in fact Erin's claimed diarrhea and there

706
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 2: were just enough medical symptoms when you finally did get

707
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 2: any one of hospital to go where she probably did

708
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 2: suffer something. Maybe it did if you've murdered three people,

709
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,760
Speaker 2: but you must have just tasted a tiny, tiny, tiny

710
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 2: enough amount to feel sick at seven o'clock at night.

711
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:19,839
Speaker 2: But you're now starting to ask people to believe a lot. Yeah,

712
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 2: but again.

713
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 1: It's putting in doubt and also, I think the body

714
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 1: weight of a person and the age of the people

715
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 1: that died, it could react. And if you have the

716
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 1: professor or the expert witness there saying well, it's possible,

717
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: because most things are possible.

718
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 2: And that's what they're very good at asking that question. Yeah,

719
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,240
Speaker 2: not what's most likely, but it is it at all possible?

720
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 2: You've been caught too long. Yeah, I've heard that question

721
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 2: too many times and the answers, well, yes, it's a

722
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 2: hard one to say no too. But you did then

723
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 2: have to go, well, that's weighed up with. So she

724
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 2: tasted enough to realize there wasn't enough flavor added Asian

725
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 2: dried mushrooms, then just tasted a tiny little quarter of

726
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 2: tea spooned luckily apparently nothing else, and that was enough

727
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 2: that you know, when she started to feel simpto that

728
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 2: seven o'clock it was because of that. And you go, okay,

729
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 2: but the difference you still come back to thinking and

730
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 2: I think that what you're putting doubt in someone's mind.

731
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 2: But then you go, three people died, one very very

732
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 2: nearly died, and she was discharged after a couple of hours. Yeah,

733
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 2: and you know that that's not just an incremental difference.

734
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 2: That's a huge, huge and there was a reluctance to

735
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 2: get tested and the reluctance to bring the kids in.

736
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 2: The other thing that I found from your book, from

737
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 2: your Dura, and I think this is the type of

738
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 2: thing that goes through Dura's mind where you're sitting there,

739
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 2: and I think it was just sort of reflection of

740
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 2: what goes on in the dur Dura mind that she's

741
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 2: Aaron was saying that she had a I think it

742
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 2: was a three hour round trip that she had to

743
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 2: take to drop her son somewhere trying and she was

744
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 2: getting around in white pants and like the Duras just

745
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 2: thinking and this I'm sure and it's not legal basis.

746
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 2: I'm sure this is how the Duras process stuff. If

747
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 2: you had diarrhea, would you be wearing white pants?

748
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like little things like that, But these are all

749
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 1: the type of things that grow through the mind. Getting

750
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,959
Speaker 1: rid of the dehydrator. We've talked about that, But what

751
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 1: explanation did she give when she was in the witness

752
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: box for getting rid of the dehydrated.

753
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 2: Sheer panic that she thought if it was left there,

754
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 2: and she thought that Katrina Crypts from Child Protection was

755
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 2: coming around that afternoon, and if she saw that she

756
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 2: had a dehydrator which still had mushroom crumbs on it,

757
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:55,320
Speaker 2: because that's how they found.

758
00:40:55,200 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that she was likely to be blamed for it,

759
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 3: for it and did she and I might have this wrong,

760
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 3: But didn't she allude to or claim that Simon also

761
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 3: accused her at some did you voice.

762
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 2: No, that's that that happened. So what before she gets

763
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 2: rid of the dehydrated Yeah, So that's the other The

764
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:19,360
Speaker 2: other reason is it's a contested reason. When she was

765
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:21,920
Speaker 2: admitted to monashing, the kids were there as well, and

766
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 2: they're just going through through tests. The kids were asking

767
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 2: why they'd been taken out of school. I think you

768
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,760
Speaker 2: know what's all this about, and she was saying, well,

769
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,720
Speaker 2: they think that it's the lunch I did on Saturday

770
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:35,799
Speaker 2: and the mushrooms in it that might have made you know,

771
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 2: Pop and Nanna a bit sick. And the kids were saying,

772
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 2: but why are we here because she took the mushrooms

773
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 2: off the one that we ate, et cetera. And it

774
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 2: started a conversation about mushrooms, and that led to the

775
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 2: description that the kids knew an Aaron knew that when

776
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 2: she first bought the dehydrator. She crushed up dried button

777
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 2: mushrooms and put them in muffins because you know her

778
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 2: do she didn't like mushrooms and she wanted to feed

779
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 2: some good veggies. And the daughter actually really preferred the

780
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 2: mushies with the mushrooms in than the ones without the

781
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:13,439
Speaker 2: mushrooms in. And that of course telling that story. Yeah,

782
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 2: you mentioned the dehydrator that she used to actually put

783
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:22,319
Speaker 2: the mushrooms in the muffins. And according to Aaron, this

784
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 2: was on the Monday afternoon, I think. And that's when

785
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 2: Simon said to her, is that how you poison my

786
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 2: parents with that dehydrator? Right? And that she says, that's

787
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 2: the moment when she realized she was going to get

788
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 2: blamed for everything.

789
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:40,320
Speaker 1: Okay, so again is trying to write off her actions

790
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:44,800
Speaker 1: at the sound very damning towards her. Is I panic

791
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: because Simon was accusing me of.

792
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 2: Killing his mom and dad. Now Simon point blank denied ever,

793
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 2: saying that to her, it comes down to do you

794
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 2: take Aerin at a word. If you do take Aerin

795
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 2: at a word, it's consistent with what she said she did.

796
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 2: She had Simon already blaming her. She was feeling panicked.

797
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 2: She knew child Protection was coming around the next day. Stress,

798
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:07,879
Speaker 2: this is all going to come back at me. I've

799
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,800
Speaker 2: got to hide whatever I can and takes the dehydrated

800
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:11,320
Speaker 2: to the tip.

801
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 1: What about her foraging for mushrooms? When did that break?

802
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 1: When did she acknowledge that she.

803
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 2: Was that happened? It wasn't during the record of you

804
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:25,280
Speaker 2: with the police. It was after the fifth of August.

805
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,840
Speaker 2: By the time they did. It was the autopsies that

806
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 2: sort of showed beyond doubt it was a death cat,

807
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 2: that it was death cap mushrooms that killed Don and Gale.

808
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 2: And the DNA testing on the crumbs from the trays

809
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:42,800
Speaker 2: and the dehydrator showed that there were death cap mushrooms

810
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 2: on the dehydrator. Right, So the combination of scientific evidence

811
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 2: that was beyond doubt as opposed to, you know, there's

812
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 2: a ten percent chance of this. There was no explanation

813
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:59,880
Speaker 2: for that other than she had used forage mushrooms in

814
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 2: those beef Wellington's. Then on top of that, and I

815
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 2: think this was the other thing they finally when they

816
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 2: went through there was an SD card with photos on

817
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 2: it and there was a tablet that she'd used that

818
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 2: had thumbnails of photos from the memory cash from Google photos,

819
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 2: and they showed photos she'd taken of mushrooms on the

820
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:26,280
Speaker 2: dehydrator and some of the particularly some of the photos

821
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 2: were clearly foraged mushrooms. Particularly there was one set that

822
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 2: Dr Tom May, who was a mycologist, again he said

823
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 2: with a very high level of confidence they were death

824
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 2: cap mushrooms. He couldn't say beyond all doubt, but with

825
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 2: a very high level of confidence. And given the crumbs

826
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,800
Speaker 2: and the DNA were there, you sort of go with it.

827
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 2: So over the course between August and November when she

828
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 2: was charged, the evidence that she must have foraged and

829
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 2: death cap mushrooms cannot be cultivated. They can only grow

830
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 2: on roots of oak trees, so you have to go

831
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 2: out to a park somewhere where there's specific So put

832
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 2: all those facts together and you can't keep denying it.

833
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, And did she when she was giving evidence,

834
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 1: did she?

835
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:14,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, she said she had. She She then said she

836
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 2: started foraging mushrooms during COVID, so all of a sudden

837
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 2: it started three years ago. And there are photos of

838
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 2: her on I think the rail trail and again with

839
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 2: the kids were you know, they're on their scooters and

840
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 2: she's picking mushrooms. There's photos of her in her kitchen

841
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 2: in the house before the ones she earned at Lee Gathera,

842
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 2: the one before that, and again there's foraged mushrooms that

843
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 2: she says she just got in the backyard, which are

844
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 2: on the kitchen bench. So all of a sudden, once

845
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:44,759
Speaker 2: that wall came down. Forager. She's a forager. What she

846
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 2: denies ever doing is deliberately foraging death caps. She said,

847
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 2: obviously I must have at some point because they're in

848
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 2: the dehydrator and they're in the beef. Wellington's terrible accident

849
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:56,439
Speaker 2: again put that little bit of doubt.

850
00:45:56,520 --> 00:46:01,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just looking all different parts that the trial

851
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 1: was hinging. It would have been an interesting trial to

852
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 1: listen to because you'd be walking out each day thinking

853
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: we've got her. I'm talking from a police point there,

854
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 1: or she's she came out on top here, creating those doubt.

855
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, several nights when I was talking to my kids

856
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:21,400
Speaker 2: in my life about it, and they were just reading headlines,

857
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 2: and had read headlines for months ago ago. Why is

858
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 2: it taking so long? You shouldn't they lock her up?

859
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 2: And I was going, you know, she might not be

860
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 2: convicted here. Yeah, and they were quite surprised. But the

861
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:36,360
Speaker 2: more I there were several days through the middle and

862
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 2: second part of the trial where I'm going this isn't

863
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:40,839
Speaker 2: necessarily over. There's a there.

864
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 1: The assummation of the case that I look at, like,

865
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 1: we've gone through the trial, she's given evidence.

866
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 2: How long was she in the witness box for about

867
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 2: six or seven days. That's a long time, A long time.

868
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 2: I think she was three days giving her evidence in

869
00:46:56,239 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 2: chief and three or four days in crossmains in the

870
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 2: armor of breaking down a motion anything. Not really it

871
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 2: was a pretty good performance.

872
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, this is a summation of just what we've

873
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 1: talked about, but of the case against Saron. So for

874
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 1: you presenting the prosecution case, Aaron had forage for wild

875
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 1: mushrooms near Mike Parks and trails. She had hydrated deaf

876
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 1: cap mushrooms in her dehydrator. The mushroom mixture in her

877
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: beef Wellington's had included those dehydrated death mushrooms. The beef

878
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 1: Wellington had killed three of her lunch guests and very

879
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 1: nearly killed the fourth that had killed all their livers.

880
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 1: That's the result. By contrast, Aaron had not suffered any

881
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: liver damage at all. So if you're going to summarize

882
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:44,760
Speaker 1: the case, it sort of gets back to the start

883
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 1: of it, doesn't it Your fictional dura and I just

884
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 1: take this quote out of the book because I thought

885
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 1: it was a good way of explaining it. They were

886
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 1: five points I just read out there. The first four

887
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 1: could be explained by a tragic accident or a deliberate

888
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 1: act with murderous intent. The fifth makes a tragic accident

889
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 1: less likely explanation and an active murderous intent a more

890
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 1: likely explanation. So that fifth one, if Aaron had not suffered,

891
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 1: if she got sick and survived, it would be hard

892
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 1: for anyone to convict her.

893
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 2: It's a difficult one, is it? It is?

894
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 1: And the judge was it Justice Bill, Justice Bill in

895
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 1: his summing when we talk about what the role of

896
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 1: the jurors, and this is from the transcripts, if you

897
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 1: find that the accused lied about something, you can use

898
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 1: that fact to help you decide whether or not you

899
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 1: believe the other things the accused has said. That is

900
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:43,360
Speaker 1: not to say that just because you find that she

901
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 1: lied about one matter, you must also find she has

902
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:49,319
Speaker 1: been lying about everything else, But you can use the

903
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 1: fact that she lied to help you determine the truthfulness

904
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 1: of other things that she has said. Do not reason

905
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 1: that just because a person is shown to have told

906
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 1: a lie about something must be guilty. Evidence that she

907
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:05,280
Speaker 1: told these lies is not evidence of guilt. These alleged

908
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 1: lies are only relevant if all in assessing her credibility.

909
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 1: Now there's a lot of warnings.

910
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 2: There isn't it.

911
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 1: There's a lie getting in there and lie through your teeth,

912
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean you're guilty. So that's why it

913
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:19,760
Speaker 1: makes like you and I both understand the court system.

914
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:23,359
Speaker 1: We've seen it enough, being involved in it enough. But

915
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:25,879
Speaker 1: for a dura you'd be sitting there scratching your head

916
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 1: and going, well, we know she told this lie, this lie,

917
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 1: this lie, this lie, But the judge is saying, well,

918
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:32,360
Speaker 1: that doesn't make it guilty.

919
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 2: It's hard and that's what I think makes it such

920
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,600
Speaker 2: a strong conviction with all of those warnings and thinking

921
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 2: we can't take that step, we can't take that step,

922
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 2: we can't take that step. And yet still when you

923
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:49,200
Speaker 2: look at the totality of the evidence, there's no other

924
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 2: reasonable explanation. There's just too many places where the stretch

925
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 2: is too big where you know or maybe that didn't

926
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 2: happen for five percent of this reason, But when you

927
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 2: string twenty of them together and you know that so

928
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:06,840
Speaker 2: many times she's only told the truth when she's had to,

929
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 2: when she's been caught in a lie, and she's lied

930
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:12,880
Speaker 2: so much so that her credibility is if you assume

931
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 2: she has very little credibility left to begin with, then

932
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:19,719
Speaker 2: you look at the whole line. And then I think

933
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:23,240
Speaker 2: for my juror, it was feeding the kids the leftovers

934
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 2: on the Sunday night, Well that's a big gun. That

935
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,879
Speaker 2: for me is yeah, that's a big not take that risk,

936
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 2: cannot be No, yeah, that's not a well there's a

937
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 2: five percent chance maybe you know you right do it?

938
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 2: You don't do it now as soon as you start

939
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:41,759
Speaker 2: taking that out and go, well, she must have known

940
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 2: that those people are uncontaminated. And I think Justice Bill

941
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:46,840
Speaker 2: said that that's the other thing he's looking to do

942
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 2: is you can only convict if it's the only reasonable

943
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 2: explanation for the whole of the evidence. And I believe

944
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 2: that's that's the position the jury reached, having been warned

945
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:02,920
Speaker 2: again and again and again not to leap to that conclusion.

946
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:06,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, they are all the warnings in there. I

947
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:10,000
Speaker 1: always look at people where because that's drummed into you

948
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 1: early throughout your policcing career or investigative career as a detective,

949
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:17,359
Speaker 1: that you know lies that don't make them guilty when

950
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:21,799
Speaker 1: they're self serving lies. I start the former, like, none

951
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 1: of her lies have been detrimental to her. They're all

952
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 1: self serving lies. And when people tell me, oh, look

953
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 1: there might be a mental health issue, but every sort

954
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 1: of thing that's coming out of their mouth is self serving,

955
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 1: I wagh that some people are lives, we've all met them,

956
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:43,360
Speaker 1: like the compulsive liars. But when they're self serving lies,

957
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 1: I start to look at it a little bit differently.

958
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 1: And what I see from all her lies everything was

959
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 1: to distance her from every defense that she's committed.

960
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 2: How long were the jury out? Eight days? I think okay,

961
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 2: which seemed long at the but I'm not sure is

962
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:04,319
Speaker 2: all that long for a nine ten week trial.

963
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:06,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot to a lot of process. Yeah,

964
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 1: they would have known the pressure was on with their decisions.

965
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 1: When they came back. Were you surprised or what were

966
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 1: you thinking?

967
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 2: The result? But when they came back, I was in

968
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 2: the camp of thinking Aaron was guilty. I'm not sure

969
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:27,280
Speaker 2: if I was a juror, I still had that corner

970
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:29,239
Speaker 2: of a doubt that it would only take one or

971
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:31,600
Speaker 2: two of them to go. It's not quite we can't

972
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:36,280
Speaker 2: beyond reasonable. So if you'd asked me the day before,

973
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 2: I would have said maybe seventy thirty being convicted, But

974
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 2: it wouldn't have surprised me. Yeah, having heard the whole

975
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 2: what was the media pack like with it?

976
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:48,839
Speaker 1: Because I know the media pack are always discussing them

977
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 1: having bets on which way it's going to get.

978
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 2: I think more people I don't think there were very

979
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:56,359
Speaker 2: few who thought she was innocent. And again I think

980
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:59,919
Speaker 2: that the minority were still not sure if she'd be convicted. Right.

981
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 2: The majority thought she would be and deserved to be,

982
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 2: but not by huge It wasn't ninety nine percent. It

983
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 2: had been a you know, the defense had done a

984
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 2: very good job of muddying enough moments. But at the

985
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 2: end of the day, you know, as even Colin Mandy

986
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 2: said in the sentencing hearings, you know, it was very

987
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:25,719
Speaker 2: grave offending. But it was a fascinating case to hear

988
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 2: every detail and track the journey of how a jury

989
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 2: deals with, as I said, the curated and limited bits

990
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:41,239
Speaker 2: of evidence they have, but looking in their totality to

991
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:44,160
Speaker 2: reach a conclusion that there was no other reasonable explanation.

992
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:48,759
Speaker 1: We touched on one of the pieces of information the

993
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 1: fact that she went to the tip straight after the lunch.

994
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 1: Also the fact that there was three other charges that

995
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:57,480
Speaker 1: for attempt murder of Simon, her husband.

996
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:00,319
Speaker 2: They were and they were part of the of the

997
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:02,799
Speaker 2: trial right up until I think two days before the trial,

998
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:07,880
Speaker 2: So she was charged with other murders. Yeah, so she

999
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:13,320
Speaker 2: was actually facing seven charges. Justice Bill had i think

1000
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 2: ruled three of those charges anyway, he didn't want three

1001
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:18,280
Speaker 2: of them to proceed. I'm not sure what the legal

1002
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:21,920
Speaker 2: term is. And the prosecution took that to the the

1003
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 2: Court of Appeal in Victoria and they came back with

1004
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 2: quite a lengthy ruling. And in that ruling were descriptions

1005
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 2: of those three insidants. And when you read.

1006
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 1: Them, could you give us just a brief to tell them?

1007
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 1: And we bear in mind that she hasn't been convictioned,

1008
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:43,359
Speaker 1: hasn't been disclaimer, but these were the allegations.

1009
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:46,719
Speaker 2: It started with her suggesting that they go on a

1010
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 2: walk I think to Wilson's promontory and without the kids,

1011
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:54,279
Speaker 2: just to discuss something whatever they co parenting discussion needed

1012
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:58,880
Speaker 2: to happen. She'd packed separate lunch for them, but she

1013
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:02,600
Speaker 2: had one lunch and someone had the other, and he

1014
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 2: started getting very sick that night and ended up I

1015
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:07,480
Speaker 2: think she took him to the hospital. They say it

1016
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:09,719
Speaker 2: in an airbnb and he just got sicker, and about

1017
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 2: two days later she took him to Lean Gath the

1018
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 2: hospital and he was in hospital for days and they

1019
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 2: never could find out what it caused. Was But a

1020
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:23,240
Speaker 2: few months later, because they hadn't got to their lovely

1021
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:26,480
Speaker 2: nature walk to discuss whatever the matter they wanted to discuss,

1022
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 2: she suggested they do it again and she brought you know,

1023
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 2: another prepackaged lunch over, I think the second one. She

1024
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:35,560
Speaker 2: brought it to his house and they were due to

1025
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 2: go the next day or whatever, and the same thing happened.

1026
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:41,160
Speaker 2: He had that he had the food she'd brought over

1027
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:43,640
Speaker 2: that night. The next day he was sick as a

1028
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 2: dog and was in hospital again for a long time.

1029
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:48,080
Speaker 2: I think the second time was the longest. I think

1030
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:49,920
Speaker 2: there was like two or three weeks and it was

1031
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 2: very sick, and again they couldn't the doctors. I should

1032
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:56,320
Speaker 2: have the details in front of me, but the doctors

1033
00:55:56,320 --> 00:56:00,160
Speaker 2: couldn't nail down exactly what had caused the illness us.

1034
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:03,440
Speaker 2: And this I think that would have happened while she

1035
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 2: was moving houses into lean gather. And then the third one,

1036
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:10,239
Speaker 2: they went to Haqua I think the place is called,

1037
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:12,400
Speaker 2: or they were planning a trip there, and again it

1038
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:14,799
Speaker 2: was another you know, let's go away on a just

1039
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:16,919
Speaker 2: you and me, and we'll discuss what has to happen

1040
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:20,440
Speaker 2: with the kids. And the same thing. She brought prepackaged

1041
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 2: food and you know, he had one that was wrapped

1042
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 2: up and he had there was a chicken carry for

1043
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:27,840
Speaker 2: him and a chicken carry for her, but separate things

1044
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:31,880
Speaker 2: and the same thing. So it was three times in

1045
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:34,399
Speaker 2: about over the course of a year, maybe a bit

1046
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:38,919
Speaker 2: longer than a year. And after that third time, which

1047
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:40,880
Speaker 2: again it wasn't just oh sick, I've got to go

1048
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:42,760
Speaker 2: to the toilet for half a day, it was in hospital.

1049
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:46,319
Speaker 2: It was again hospitalized I think the second one who

1050
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 2: was actually in a coma for five or six days.

1051
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:52,280
Speaker 2: It was very serious. So those were the three attempted

1052
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:55,280
Speaker 2: murder charges that the prosecution also wanted to bring against

1053
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:59,400
Speaker 2: erin the circumstantial case of the similarity between oh, you know,

1054
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:02,160
Speaker 2: I've packed your food and I've prepacked mine and he

1055
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:06,600
Speaker 2: gets sick the next day. But medically there was no

1056
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 2: concrete evidence of what had caused his illness and whether

1057
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:12,439
Speaker 2: it was related to that food. Where the failing, that's

1058
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:15,880
Speaker 2: where the failing was. So there was no you couldn't

1059
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:19,560
Speaker 2: point to a doctor saying it was something here, this

1060
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:22,440
Speaker 2: is what did it, and it was in this chicken curry.

1061
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 2: So because of that break in the line of evidence,

1062
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 2: circumstantially you look at it and you go, well, it's

1063
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:31,440
Speaker 2: pretty obvious.

1064
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 1: Well tendency in coincidence. And just to clarify that, the

1065
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 1: DPP dropped those charges against Aaron in regards to Simon.

1066
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:45,120
Speaker 2: So that was a problem. Yeah, and I think the

1067
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:47,439
Speaker 2: prosecution I don't quite understand the law here, but bear

1068
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 2: with me for a second, was saying, because of what

1069
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 2: happened with the beef Wellington lunch on July twenty nine,

1070
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:57,480
Speaker 2: you can use that as evidence for saying she must

1071
00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:00,880
Speaker 2: have poisoned Simon with these three right, But the Court

1072
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 2: of Appeal was saying, you can't present those three on

1073
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:08,200
Speaker 2: the same ticket as evidence for that lunch. Who's if

1074
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 2: she's guilty of that then becomes evidence for the lunch.

1075
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 2: It's it becomes circular, circular argument. You go's a circular argument.

1076
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:16,000
Speaker 2: And so you're needing the result on one to prove

1077
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:17,760
Speaker 2: those three, and yet you want those three to be

1078
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:20,320
Speaker 2: used to prove the other, and you can't do that,

1079
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:23,840
Speaker 2: and they won't. No, not allowed. Okay, So I can

1080
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 2: understand that, really, And so they were separated from the indictment.

1081
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:30,960
Speaker 2: But the jury knew there had been because it had

1082
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:33,680
Speaker 2: been in the press. The jury knew there had been

1083
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:36,880
Speaker 2: three other attempted murder charges. They weren't informed, but they

1084
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:38,520
Speaker 2: were not informed. They were told put it out of

1085
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:40,760
Speaker 2: your mind, and they never knew any details about it.

1086
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:43,440
Speaker 2: So this is this is a hard thing for the juris,

1087
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:46,480
Speaker 2: isn't it? Because you what was that about?

1088
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 1: And I'm sure the conversation is happening in the jury

1089
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:50,959
Speaker 1: room going what was that about?

1090
00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:52,640
Speaker 2: Then we ask you about that? Can you find out

1091
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:55,680
Speaker 2: what was what that was? You know, the prosecution two

1092
00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:57,959
Speaker 2: days away from a trial, now we can't know anything

1093
00:58:57,960 --> 00:58:58,439
Speaker 2: about it.

1094
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:01,720
Speaker 1: That's a complex system, isn't it. It really is so

1095
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:06,400
Speaker 1: come back guilty and she's recently been sentenced. What did

1096
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:08,760
Speaker 1: Patterson get to these her endless crimes?

1097
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:13,960
Speaker 2: The headline sentence was life imprisonment, which was not contested

1098
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:18,160
Speaker 2: by the defense. What was contestant was a non parole period.

1099
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:22,440
Speaker 2: The prosecution was arguing that she should never be released.

1100
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:26,640
Speaker 2: The defense was saying because of the harshness of her

1101
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:31,960
Speaker 2: situation in custody, she's so notorious, because of the massive

1102
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:35,520
Speaker 2: fame of the case, that she's in solitary confinement and

1103
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:38,680
Speaker 2: because of that duress, that there should be some non

1104
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:41,720
Speaker 2: parole period. And in the end, Justice Buell accepted that

1105
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 2: argument and put a non parole period of thirty three years,

1106
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:49,040
Speaker 2: so she'll be in her early eighties when she gets out. Okay,

1107
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:53,440
Speaker 2: Well still yeah, heavy significant sentence. It's a significant sentence.

1108
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:58,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, Greg, I have enjoyed our chat again with the book.

1109
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:01,840
Speaker 2: Is there a TV series in it? Is there a movie? Look,

1110
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:07,560
Speaker 2: I've been concentrating on getting the book finished first. Let's hope.

1111
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:10,720
Speaker 2: I know there is a screen series in development with

1112
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:14,720
Speaker 2: the ABC with another production company. But if any of

1113
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:19,760
Speaker 2: the big streamers and other broadcasters you know, read the

1114
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 2: book and want to develop a series out of it.

1115
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:24,200
Speaker 2: I'm certainly here to help them. Well.

1116
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 1: The Mushroom Murders a fascinating read and a really novel

1117
01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:32,400
Speaker 1: concept looking from a juror's point of view. I obviously

1118
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:35,640
Speaker 1: read a lot of true crime books, and I was

1119
01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:38,440
Speaker 1: sitting down about the start that I've thought, this is

1120
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:41,240
Speaker 1: a novel idea like looking from a juris point of view.

1121
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 1: But it really took you into the case, and it

1122
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:47,760
Speaker 1: took me into the intensity of the trials. Like quite

1123
01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:51,600
Speaker 1: often I say with a murder trial, how exhausting they are,

1124
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 1: because it's an emotional roller case. Do you think you're

1125
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:57,320
Speaker 1: in front, then step back, And it really took us

1126
01:00:57,560 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 1: inside that and give us a bit of an insight

1127
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:00,880
Speaker 1: into what the.

1128
01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:01,800
Speaker 2: Jura is all about.

1129
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:05,080
Speaker 1: So I'm glad you've sort of done a new turn

1130
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:08,120
Speaker 1: in your career or partially, and there you see yourself

1131
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:10,600
Speaker 1: as a writer. Any other cases that you're looking.

1132
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:14,840
Speaker 2: At, I will now I'm going to try and get

1133
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 2: back on the eye catch killers. If you can get

1134
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:23,120
Speaker 2: that is definitely something worth striving for. I'm really glad

1135
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:25,479
Speaker 2: you enjoyed the read, and I have enjoyed the pivot

1136
01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 2: into authorship and hopefully it'll continue.

1137
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:31,040
Speaker 1: It's an interesting way of telling the stories in a book,

1138
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:34,720
Speaker 1: you get so much detail and look, people have enjoyed

1139
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:38,040
Speaker 1: this podcast. What we're talking about. We've literally just scratched

1140
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:40,040
Speaker 1: the surface of what's in the book.

1141
01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:44,040
Speaker 2: So the Mushroom Murders. Thank you Gary, Okay, Thanks Greg,