1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:02,640 Speaker 1: I get a team. Welcome to another installment of the 2 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: You Project. Craig, Anthony Harper, Melissa, Marie Cameron, and Kylie. 3 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: We're not sure what her middle name is, but we'll 4 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: find out. Kylie Moore Gilbert. Welcome to another show. Everyone high, Melissa, Hello, 5 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 1: how are you? Oh bloody good? If the sun's out, 6 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: the birds singing, the bees are buzzing. I just took 7 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: one of the motorbikes out of the garards for a 8 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:26,079 Speaker 1: little bit of stretching of the metaphoric legs, and I 9 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: lifted some heavy shit at the gym. And it's still 10 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: only one five and I'm about to have a scintillating conversation. 11 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 1: So for me, win our chicken dinner. It's been a 12 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: good day, fantastic. 13 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,159 Speaker 2: And have you been enjoying your I think it's the 14 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 2: National Day of Morning or something. That's what they're calling 15 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 2: it today. 16 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: I don't know if that's like, that's a loaded question. 17 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: That's a lot. I feel like I'm not meant to 18 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: enjoy a National Day of Morning, rush, I don't know. 19 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: Let's ask Kylie. She's smarter than us. She will know 20 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: the appropriate answer for that. 21 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 3: Hi, Kylie, Hey, thanks for having me on Craig. 22 00:00:57,680 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, welcome to the You project. What do you do? 23 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: And on our national day of mourning, allegedly our national 24 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: day of mourning other than talking to a buffet end Hampton, 25 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: I mean. 26 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 3: Other than wearing black and shedding tears and lighting candle. 27 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 3: So I'm kind of chilling at home, going to go 28 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 3: on a run this afternoon and maybe spend some time 29 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 3: in my garden. 30 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: Are you Are you an avid gardener or a casual gardener. 31 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 3: I'm a casual gardener. Yes, only when the weather's good. 32 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 3: Do I bother going out there. 33 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 1: I'm a little bit with you. I have the lowest 34 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 1: maintenance garden in the world. I had it built. I'm 35 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: sure you don't get built created, I don't know, planted 36 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: about ten years ago. It's primarily bamboo trees that create 37 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: a screen around my house. And they are about twenty 38 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: meters not twenty meters, twenty feet or six meters higher 39 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: than the top of my house. So I have this beautiful, 40 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: wow green screen. And I live in suburbia, so when 41 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: I look out all the windows in my house, I 42 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: can't see any suburbia, any road, any traffic. I just 43 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: see trees. So I feel like I'm in the middle 44 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: of something not urbanskay bamboo jungle. Are you a an 45 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: avid runner or a casual runner? 46 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 3: I am an avid runner who's sort of casual at 47 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,519 Speaker 3: the moment, trying to get back into avid if that makes. 48 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,119 Speaker 1: Sense there, No, there's a scale. Have you done any 49 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 1: not that it matters. Have you done any runs? Like 50 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: have you ever done a half or a full marathon 51 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:26,079 Speaker 1: or anything like that? 52 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 3: I've done one half before, Yeah, how'd you go? I've 53 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 3: never done a full? Oh not bad, but actually it 54 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 3: was in the UK and it was snowing at the time, 55 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 3: so that really set me back and kind of put 56 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 3: me off doing another one. But I might someday. 57 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: That's yeah, I reckon doing half a marathon in the 58 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: snow is analogous to a full marathon not in the snow. 59 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: So I'll give you an honorary marathon a title. You're welcome. 60 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 3: Thank you. I don't know if I can claim that. 61 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 4: Yes, it was tough. 62 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: Tell people what you do at the moment before we 63 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: go round and round with your story and back and forth. 64 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: But like, what's your job as we sit here at 65 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: the twenty second of September twenty twenty two, what's your job, Kylie, 66 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: what do you do? 67 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 3: I don't have a job at the moment, per se am. 68 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 3: I wrote a book called The Uncaged Sky, and that 69 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 3: came out about five or six months ago. Now, so 70 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 3: my quote unquote job for the past half year has 71 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 3: been promoting the book and I've been doing very speaking 72 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 3: engagements as well, so that's taking up the amount of 73 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 3: my time as well as doing what's of advocacy stuff 74 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 3: as well, human rights and you know, hostage diplomacy, advocacy 75 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 3: behind the scenes. 76 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: That's a job. Well, it's not a job, but it's work. Well, 77 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: if we're being technical, I've had a job for thirty 78 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: two years, so we're both unemployed. How's the book. Has 79 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: the book gone? 80 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's going pretty well. I've had a very positive reception. 81 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 3: A lot of people have given me great feedback on it. 82 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 3: So no, that's all that matters to me really. I 83 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 3: just want to get the message out about what's happening 84 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 3: in Iran and the phenomenon of arbitrary detention that you know, 85 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 3: I got caught up in, and if that's happening, then 86 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 3: I'm happy. 87 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, amazing. All right, Well let's start there. I was 88 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: going to get there eventually, but let's start there. So 89 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 1: your book was called The Uncaged Sky, My eight hundred 90 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: and four Days in an Iranian Prison, which has been 91 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 1: shortlisted for the twenty twenty two Nonfiction Age Book of 92 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: the Year. Congratulations, So you must have done a good job. 93 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: Is it your first book? 94 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 4: Yeah? 95 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 3: My first book? Actually? Yeah, I was writing a book 96 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 3: when I was arrested, can you believe? And that book 97 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 3: has now been canned because it's out of date, which 98 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 3: is very frustrating, one of the unintended consequences of getting 99 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 3: thrown in prison in a foreign country. But that book 100 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 3: was sort of an academic work based on my PhD. 101 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 3: So this is the first non academic piece of writing 102 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 3: I've ever really published. 103 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: Oh wow, wow, Yeah, I've done it the other way around. 104 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:00,559 Speaker 1: I've published only non academic things, and now, two hundred 105 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: and fifteen years of age, I'm writing academic papers, which 106 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: is ridiculous. Can you help? Do you like writing academic stuff? 107 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 1: You know? 108 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 4: I used to like it. 109 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 3: I'm pretty good at it, but now I find it 110 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 3: quite try and boring. Can you believe? 111 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,919 Speaker 1: So? Shit, why don't you just discovered this? Well? 112 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 4: Look, I always. 113 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 3: Thought my research topics were very interesting. And you know, 114 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 3: my research was in political science, mainly focusing on the 115 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 3: Middle East, so a lot of stuff's happening in that space, 116 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 3: and I found the research really interesting. But the actual 117 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:34,359 Speaker 3: writing and the style of writing that you need to 118 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 3: adopt in academia, it's, yeah, it's pretty boring. It's pretty 119 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 3: unreadable to the average person as well. I much prefer, 120 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 3: you know, like my book, something that's a bit more 121 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 3: accessible and easy to read and more fun to write 122 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 3: as well. 123 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: Was it liberating being although I'm sure recounting everything wasn't 124 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: particularly enjoyable at times, but it was liberating and also 125 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 1: therapeutic writing it or was it something else? 126 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 3: Oh, it was definitely therapeutic. It was cathartic. I just 127 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 3: it poured out of me. You know, I actually wrote 128 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:12,599 Speaker 3: twice the amount that's in the book, and I essentially 129 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 3: had to cut it in half, which was a very 130 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 3: torturous process because you know, you're very attached to every 131 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 3: anecdote into every part of the story. But yeah, it 132 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 3: just helped me process everything. It helped me make sense 133 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 3: of what happened to me, and I guess put it 134 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 3: into order in my mind because it was all jumbled 135 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 3: mess before that, so I found it to be a 136 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 3: really therapeutic exercise. Actually, I really enjoyed the writing process. 137 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: So let me guess it started out at about one 138 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: hundred and sixty thousand, and you wound it down to 139 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: bad id. 140 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 3: It was about two hundred and twenty thousand. Oh wow, 141 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 3: and now it's one hundred and forty so it's even 142 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:50,799 Speaker 3: that's a book. 143 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 4: Yes, yes, it's at. 144 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 3: The max of They told me you can't even add 145 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 3: one more page because we don't have enough paper for 146 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 3: the printers. We've already bought the paper and we've got 147 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 3: we've scheduled the max number of pages and you've just 148 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 3: about to exceed it. 149 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 4: So yeah, it was a real wow. 150 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: That is a really big book. One hundred and forty 151 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: thousand words. I'm guessing that is around four hundred and 152 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: fifty pages or something. 153 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 3: I don't even know how many pages. It's probably probably 154 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 3: four hundred odd pages. Maybe that's a lot. 155 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: And how long did that take you to write? 156 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 3: Ten months? Yeah? 157 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: Wow? All right, so let's talk about let me just 158 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: I'm stealing this straight from Mia Friedman. Thank you, Maya 159 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: from No Filter. Let's give her a plug as well. 160 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: Thanks mea thanks Mia. Shout out to Maya. On the 161 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: twelfth of September twenty eighteen, Australian academic Kylie Moore Gilbert 162 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: was rested in Tehran's International Airport in Range. She spent 163 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: eight hundred and four days incarcerated in Tehran's Evan And 164 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: how do I say that? Is a karchak carchack karchak 165 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: prison for espionage, a crime she never committed. She was 166 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 1: in an Australian stuck in a foreign prison with no 167 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: way of getting home. Kylie's story about her imprisonment and 168 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: what happened after she was finally released is unbelievable, except 169 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: it really happened. Do you get bored of telling this story? 170 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: I don't want you to feel like you're in groundhog Day? 171 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: But do you get bored recounting this? 172 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 4: No? 173 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 3: No, I don't get bored. No, I mean it is. 174 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 3: You know, I've done a few interviews for the book, 175 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 3: and sometimes they're a bit groundhog Day. But also if 176 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 3: it's a good interviewer, you know, you guys all think 177 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 3: of new stuff to ask at, new angles and comments 178 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 3: on it, so you know, it is my life, so 179 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 3: to talk about it if it actually happened to you, 180 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 3: then it is if it's just some you know, specialty, 181 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 3: your expertise you've got. 182 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: So that's right, and it's not like you've got to 183 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: It's not like you've got to try and recall data 184 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: from something you read, like you're literally recounting your experience. 185 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: All right, Start wherever you want, and I'll try not 186 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: to interject too much. So how did this end up 187 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: that you were arrested at an international airport and spent 188 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: is what is that sober? Two years in Jaiga? 189 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 3: Two years and three months. Yeah, I went to Iran 190 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 3: for a two and a half week trip. That was, 191 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 3: I guess a business trip proof by my university, and 192 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:18,839 Speaker 3: i'd attended a one week conference there and I was 193 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 3: actually invited to come by an Iranian university to that conference, 194 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,959 Speaker 3: and it was specifically for foreigners. I wasn't a scholar 195 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 3: of Iran. I was studying the Arab states off the 196 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 3: Persian Gulf, you know, particularly Bahrain actually at the time, 197 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 3: and it was sort of relevant to my research, especially 198 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 3: the religious aspect. I needed to learn more about that, 199 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 3: so I thought it would be a good opportunity. And 200 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 3: because of my research project, I met a few people 201 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 3: in Iran who I interviewed for that the research project 202 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 3: was about Bahrain again, not about Iran. And I had 203 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 3: a great time and I did a little bit of 204 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:00,319 Speaker 3: tourism too and met some interesting people and to the 205 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 3: airport to fly back home and was approached by a 206 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 3: group of men and told they have a warrant for 207 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 3: my arrest and that I'm not going to be making 208 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 3: the flight and instead I need to come and be 209 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 3: interrogated by them. 210 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 4: So yeah, it was It was quite a shock. 211 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 3: And I hadn't done anything wrong, so you just you know, yeah, 212 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 3: initially you tell yourself, well, I'm innocent, so they'll figure 213 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 3: that out and they'll let me go. They'll realize it's 214 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 3: a bit a mistake or a misunderstanding. But I came 215 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 3: to understand pretty quickly that that didn't matter. You know, 216 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 3: they didn't care if I was innocent or guilty. I 217 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 3: had some sort of value as a foreigner. It's a 218 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 3: foreign citizen that they saw that they could trade me 219 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 3: for something, some diplomatic leverage. I'm a UK citizen as well, 220 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 3: so either from the UK or Australia, and you know, 221 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 3: I just became a kind of a hostage in a way. 222 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: Is that looking back, is that do you believe that 223 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: that's the reason that they just identified you as potentially 224 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 1: a valuable pawn in a political game. 225 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 3: I don't think that's the initial reason why they picked 226 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 3: me up. What happened was a chap that I had 227 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 3: met in the city of Kom which was where the 228 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 3: conference was being held. He was a Bahraini guy living 229 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 3: in Iran, and I interviewed him about Bahrain. He had 230 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 3: some sort of connection to the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, 231 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 3: which is the militant group that arrested me. They are 232 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 3: kind of a state within a state in Iran. They're 233 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 3: not the government, but they're kind of associated with the government, 234 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 3: and so he had either been working for them as 235 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 3: an informer or might have even been arrested by them, 236 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 3: but he had some link to them, and it was 237 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 3: him that dabbed me in and flagged me as somebody 238 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 3: of interest of somebody suspicious with this IGC Revolutionary Guard Corps, 239 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 3: and that is why they initially picked me up. But 240 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 3: then obviously they once they picked me up, they weren't 241 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 3: going to let me go. And if they knew that 242 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 3: I'd done nothing wrong, why because. 243 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 4: They had value that. 244 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 3: They have a history of arresting foreigners and using them 245 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 3: as a bargaining chip in a transaction with the country 246 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 3: of origin, whether that be US, Canada, UK, Germany, Australia wherever. 247 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 3: They've done it many times before, going back to the 248 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 3: nineteen seventy nine hostage crisis where they took all of 249 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 3: the US embassy staff hostage for more than four hundred days. 250 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 3: So they know what pays dividends for them. If they 251 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:34,719 Speaker 3: catch some sort of genuine spy, great, but if they 252 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 3: catch an innocent person, well that's also great because they 253 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 3: can just trade you for something. So that's how they operate. 254 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 3: And I think they knew that I wasn't. I was 255 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 3: ultimately charged with spying. I think they knew I wasn't 256 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 3: actually a spy, and that was ludicrous a. I think 257 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 3: that was just the sort of you know, narrative that 258 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 3: they were. 259 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: Sin justify it. 260 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 4: Someway, Yeah exactly, yeah, yeah. 261 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:01,559 Speaker 1: What were you at the airport by yourself, Kylie? Or 262 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: were you with someone? 263 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 5: No? 264 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 3: I was by myself. 265 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 1: Oh god, so you couldn't even tell it, like there 266 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,679 Speaker 1: was no one even there that could ring someone and 267 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: go this is what's going. 268 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 3: On nobody, and I was actually, when I was being arrested, 269 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 3: I was looking around frantically trying to catch somebody's eye, 270 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 3: you know, an Iranian foreign tourist, anyone, and nobody would 271 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 3: look at me. Everyone sort of gave us a white 272 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 3: berth and I wanted to scream and shout, but you know, 273 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,439 Speaker 3: I had nobody there, And yeah, it was It was 274 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 3: quite terrifying. 275 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 4: Were you thirty three? 276 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: That's crazy, that's and I mean, I know this is 277 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,199 Speaker 1: dumb because I think I know the answer, But in 278 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 1: that moment where you're bewildered, you're overwhelmed, it's ridiculous, It 279 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: makes no sense, and you're trying to even understand why. 280 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 1: What was going through your head? What was happening emotionally? 281 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 1: Were you angry? Were you terrified? Were you confused? What 282 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: was the dominant kind of on a know state? 283 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 3: I think I was mainly confused. I wasn't terrified of 284 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 3: them yet because I didn't know who they were. I 285 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 3: obviously had heard of the Revolutionary Guards, but these guys 286 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 3: weren't wearing a uniform. There was no badge, no license, nothing. 287 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 3: I had no idea who they were. I assumed there 288 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 3: was some sort of border police or something at the beginning, 289 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 3: and that the whole thing would be cleared up. It 290 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 3: was a misunderstanding, and you know, they'd let me go 291 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 3: and catch my flight. So I was initially just confused 292 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 3: because I didn't speak the language Farsi. Everything was happening 293 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 3: in Farsi around me, and I had no idea. I 294 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 3: couldn't even understand what they were saying, and only one 295 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 3: of them spoke basic English. So even this page they 296 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 3: were brandishing the arrest warrant they were showing me, the 297 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 3: whole thing was in Farsi. I couldn't read it, and 298 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 3: I had no idea what it was. It just looked 299 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 3: like a random print out from a computer. So I 300 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 3: was super confused and just I think in shock, and 301 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 3: I didn't let myself believe that I was actually being arrested. 302 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 3: I thought, okay, that they mean they're going to ask 303 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 3: me a few questions and then the or let me 304 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 3: catch my flight. 305 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, And when do you think or at what stage 306 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: did they realize do you think that you weren't some 307 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: like you said, they weren't going to let you go 308 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: no matter what because you were valuable to them. But 309 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: when do you think they realized that you weren't some 310 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: kind of I don't know, bloody criminal trying to perpetrate 311 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: some injustice or some crime. I should say, Oh, I think. 312 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 3: They knew from the first day or two, you know, 313 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 3: it was clear that there was no evidence of any spying. 314 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 3: I mean they there was no evidence of me trying 315 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 3: to hide anything I was doing either. I had all 316 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 3: my research material, everything, my laptop, my phone. I just 317 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 3: sort of presented it to the want a platter at 318 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 3: the airport when they arrested me. You know what kind 319 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 3: of spy would do that? They'd go and hide there, 320 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 3: you know, listen, definitely fails by school exactly Like I 321 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 3: actually said to them, Look, I'm not stupid. Do you 322 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 3: think I'd be that dumb if I was a spy, 323 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 3: I wouldn't try and like, I don't know, I upload 324 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 3: this stuff to the cloud and just the evidence or 325 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 3: send it to some agent somewhere. You know, I've just 326 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 3: given it all to you straight up. 327 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: So how did they How did they treat you? Where 328 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: did they take you? Did they take you to a 329 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: room at the airport or transfer you out of the airport? 330 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: What happened? 331 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was at a room at the airport for 332 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 3: about six hours or so, being interrogated there, and then 333 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 3: they put me in a blacked out car with a 334 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 3: couple of female guards in between me, and drove me 335 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 3: to a safe house in North Tehran. I was interrogated 336 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 3: overnight there and didn't really sleep until about ten am 337 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 3: when they stopped the next day. And then they put 338 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 3: me in a hotel, initially a hotel that I was 339 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 3: sort of imprisoned inside of and wasn't allowed to leave 340 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 3: the room I was in, and it was under their control, 341 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 3: you know, they had video cameras and things there. So 342 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 3: I was in that hotel for about a week and 343 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 3: they would the interrogators would come each day and interrogate 344 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 3: me all day in the hotel room. And then after 345 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 3: that week they made the decision to throw me in prison, 346 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,120 Speaker 3: and I went to Evan Prison in North Tehran, which 347 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:11,640 Speaker 3: is an infamous prison in Iran for political prisoners. And 348 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 3: I was thrown into the two A unit there, which 349 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 3: is under the control of the Revolutionary Guards and it's 350 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 3: a sort of a max security detention compound inside Evan Prison. 351 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: And so was there a whole lot of internationals at 352 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: that prison, No, very few. 353 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 3: From time to time, foreigners were arrested and then released. 354 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 3: There's a few foreigners, in particular dual nationals so Iranians 355 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 3: who have foreign passports in Evan Prison, and some of 356 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 3: them have been there for a number of years. There's 357 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 3: a handful of Americans. There are a couple of Brits, 358 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 3: some Germans, some Austrians, et cetera. But I never had 359 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 3: anything to do with them because they had been sentenced 360 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 3: years before me, and most of them were men. Actually, 361 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:55,919 Speaker 3: they were all in the public part of the prison, 362 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 3: in the men's ward. A few foreigners came through the 363 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 3: women's unit when I was there. There was a Bahrainy 364 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 3: woman who was actually recruited as a spy and was 365 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 3: one of the most evil people I'd ever met actually 366 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 3: in my whole experience. There was also a couple of Australians. 367 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 3: So I don't know if you remember those two backpackers 368 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,399 Speaker 3: that were arrested for flying a drone in Iran in 369 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 3: twenty nineteen, so they were in the same unit as me, 370 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 3: and I had a couple of encounters with Jolly, the 371 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 3: Aussie female who was in the cell down the hall 372 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 3: from me when I was there. 373 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 4: So there were. 374 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 3: Occasionally foreigners, but I was really the only foreign woman 375 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 3: that was there for any long stretch of time. 376 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: So you've been picked up at the airport, Obviously somebody 377 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 1: back home is waiting at Sydney Airport or wherever. Where 378 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: were you. 379 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 3: Flying to Melbourne? Yeah? 380 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 1: Right, so your family or friends who was waiting at 381 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 1: the other end? And what happened at the other end. 382 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:54,360 Speaker 3: My ex husband was waiting at the other end. I 383 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 3: was actually allowed to message him and my parents on 384 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 3: my own WhatsApp in Iran by my guards, and they 385 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 3: told me to come up with this sort of bogus excuse. 386 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 3: So they said, message your family and tell them that 387 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 3: you've spontaneously decided to stay in Iran for a few 388 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 3: more weeks and you're doing more research and you've got 389 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 3: some research opportunities, and that's why you're not coming home. 390 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 3: But they would have known that was BS because I'd 391 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 3: actually messaged them when I was at the airport before 392 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:26,879 Speaker 3: checking in, saying, Hey, I'm at the airport, I'm about 393 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 3: to come home. So they would have smelled a rat 394 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 3: like right at the beginning, I think, right right? 395 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: And so were any panic buttons pressed back here? Was 396 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: anything activated? Was anyone alerted. Was the government notified or. 397 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, I believe they notified defat in the first day 398 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:50,359 Speaker 3: or two that I'd gone missing. 399 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: Essentially, Wow, so and so so, tell us about before 400 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: you got put in jail, Tell us about so what 401 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: did in the hotels? All day? Every day you're being interrogated, 402 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: What I mean, how much stuff can they ask an 403 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 1: innocent person who's not committing any crimes. They essentially asking 404 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: you the same things one hundred different ways. 405 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 4: Often they were yes. 406 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 3: Basically they got into my emails, my mobile phone, my laptop, 407 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,159 Speaker 3: and you know, I was forced to give them the 408 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,919 Speaker 3: passwords for those, and they went trolled through all of 409 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 3: my thousands of emails and thousands of contacts and bits 410 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,439 Speaker 3: and bobs over the years, and would pull out every 411 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 3: minute thing. You know. Often I have no recollection of 412 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 3: what they were talking about because it had been something 413 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 3: that happened four years earlier. Or I remember even a 414 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 3: couple of people who were c seed on an email 415 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 3: that I received years earlier were suddenly brought up as 416 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 3: being people I knew were acquaintances of mine of interest, 417 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 3: and they'd interrogate me about these people, and I had 418 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 3: no idea even who they were because it was just 419 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 3: a CC on an email, you know, so they went 420 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 3: sort of with a fine who is going through everything? 421 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 4: Photographs I'd had of people? Also, what was I. 422 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 3: Doing in Iran? Where was I going? Who was I 423 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 3: talking to when I was in Iran? 424 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: Too? 425 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,679 Speaker 3: They were very interested in the university sector in Australia 426 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 3: in all my contacts in various universities. They were interested 427 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 3: in UK universities too, and if I knew this person 428 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 3: or that person, this academic, that academic. 429 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,120 Speaker 4: So yeah, it often seemed. 430 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 3: Kind of pointless in arbitrary, but also yes, they would 431 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 3: ask the same questions again and again in different ways 432 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 3: and on different days to see if my answers changed 433 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 3: as well to kind of trip me up there as well. 434 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: Did you go you know I'm smarter than you? Did 435 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: you do you know? I know what you're doing? 436 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 4: Like I knew they were. 437 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: Did you get pissed, Carl? When did the anger come 438 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 1: or didn't it? Oh? 439 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was very angry at many many occasions. You know. 440 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 3: I first got properly angry and upset when I was 441 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 3: thrown in prison because I didn't even know I was 442 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,159 Speaker 3: going to be thrown in prison They're constantly lying to 443 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 3: you know, they were constantly telling me just to answer 444 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 3: all our questions, and we're going to put you on 445 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,239 Speaker 3: a plane back to Australia on the weekend, you know. 446 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 3: So they were lying to me right up until the end. 447 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 3: And when I figured out that I was being admitted 448 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 3: into prison, I mean I had a meltdown. I was 449 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 3: not just angry, but upset, scared, anxious, and I was 450 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 3: thrown in solitary confinement, which was really traumatic and you know, confronting. 451 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 3: And also I had no idea what was happening, because 452 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 3: again I didn't speak the language, so nobody explained to me. 453 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 4: Even where I was. 454 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 3: I didn't even know I was in Evan prison. I 455 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 3: didn't know that the solitary confinement cell was be where 456 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 3: I would have to live for the next month. I 457 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,360 Speaker 3: didn't know why I was there. I knew nothing, and 458 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 3: I couldn't even communicate with my jailers because the prison 459 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:54,959 Speaker 3: guards didn't speak English. So it was just I was 460 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 3: a all of rage and anxiety, and yeah, it was horrific. 461 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: How did you survive that? How do you be in 462 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: another country in a box, locked away? I can't talk 463 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: to people you love they can't talk to you being 464 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: like literally, you know, incarcerated for something you didn't do. 465 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: It's not like you did a bad thing and now 466 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: you're suffering, and oh fuck, I did a bad thing. 467 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: I feel I realized, you know, this is like you 468 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: didn't do anything and you're being punished. How did you manage, 469 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: like tell us about the emotional and the psychological management 470 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 1: that had to happen. 471 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 3: I didn't at all cope at the beginning. I was obviously, 472 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 3: you know, completely frantic and traumatized by solitary confinement. 473 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 4: I think it took me about. 474 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,640 Speaker 3: Two weeks to properly get a lid on my emotional 475 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 3: response and my terror to being in solitary because it's 476 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,439 Speaker 3: psychological torture and they're deliberately putting you in there to 477 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:03,400 Speaker 3: break psychologically, and you do break, and at the beginning, 478 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,479 Speaker 3: your brain doesn't know how to deal with it, because 479 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 3: you've gone from being overstimulated now and you know, today's lifestyle, 480 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:17,120 Speaker 3: to having zero stimulation whatsoever, zero mental stimulation, and your 481 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 3: brain just snaps. I mean you literally bounce off the walls. 482 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 3: I would actually hear other people in solitary throwing themselves 483 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 3: against the walls. Throwing themselves against the doors and screaming 484 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 3: because they just couldn't take the hours and hours and 485 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 3: hours of isolation with no stimulus whatsoever. You know, you 486 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:37,679 Speaker 3: become your own torturer, really, and I went through that phase, 487 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,159 Speaker 3: but luckily it ended for me, and I say it 488 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 3: ends for probably eighty percent of the people because I 489 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 3: spoke to many many other prisoners who've been in solitary too, 490 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 3: and in this extreme solitary situation, and you know, the 491 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 3: human brain finds a way to adapt and survive for 492 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 3: most people, but I would say about twenty percent or 493 00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 3: ten percent never do and are just flipping out out permanently. 494 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,400 Speaker 3: And in that case, often they end up being hospitalized. 495 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 3: And I've heard it as well, but luckily it didn't 496 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 3: happen to me. My brain sort of slowed itself down. 497 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 3: I found ways of just occupying my mind for hours 498 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 3: and hours, and it would sort of be best to 499 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 3: sleep for as long as possible and inhabit like my 500 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 3: memories as much as possible, lie on the ground with 501 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 3: a blanket over my head and just close my eyes 502 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 3: and think through childhood memories and just as best as 503 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 3: possible not notice the passage of time. And stop caring 504 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 3: about time, and stop caring about yesterday and tomorrow and 505 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 3: just focus on the prison routine in the here and now. 506 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 3: That's what sort of got me through in the end. 507 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: Do you think that that's incredible? Do you think that 508 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: because you're an academic and and part of that is 509 00:25:54,680 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: curiosity and learning and being open minded, and like, did 510 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,919 Speaker 1: you get to a point where you started to think, like, 511 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 1: was there a metacognitive breakthrough where you're aware of how 512 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: you're thinking and what's happening in your mind? Did you 513 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 1: find any space between the chaos and you? And did 514 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 1: that help? 515 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,120 Speaker 3: There were many times when I did, but not really 516 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 3: when I was in that extreme solitary confinement situation, I 517 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,439 Speaker 3: was only there for one month. In that it was 518 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 3: a tiny box two and a half by two and 519 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 3: a half meters, no window, no natural light, lights on 520 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 3: twenty four seven, no furniture, no pillow, no sheets, no anything. 521 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 3: I couldn't even bring in food into the room. I 522 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 3: couldn't bring my own toothbrush, nothing, and I was only 523 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,120 Speaker 3: allowed to shower once every three days. 524 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 4: It was extreme deprobation. 525 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 3: And you know, you'd be in there for twenty three 526 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 3: hours a day on your own and that I didn't 527 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 3: find any cognitive peace per se. It was more about 528 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 3: toll rating what was happening to me and stopping it 529 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 3: from breaking me down. Entirely, I think it was you 530 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,640 Speaker 3: were just in extreme survival mode. I don't think any 531 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 3: human would ever become fully comfortable or be able to 532 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 3: fully detach from their fear and negative emotions in such 533 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 3: a place. You know, maybe the Dalai Lama or somebody, 534 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 3: but certainly not me. But when I was look I 535 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 3: spent twelve months in solitary all up, but not in 536 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 3: an extreme solitary like that cell. 537 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:31,640 Speaker 4: When I was alone. 538 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 3: In other cells, you know, which had toilets attached, terrible 539 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 3: filthy squad of toilets, but still you could take yourself 540 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 3: to the toilet when you wanted. And a small television 541 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 3: which would There were only four channels, and they were 542 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,120 Speaker 3: all Iranian soap operas. Again I didn't understand the language, 543 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 3: but at least kind of watching that would often pass 544 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 3: the time, even though I had no idea what was 545 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 3: going on, and that after a while, after a few months, 546 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 3: I got some books, I got some writing materials, and 547 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,400 Speaker 3: they eased up on me a bit. And that's when 548 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 3: I started to use my academic curiosity and intellect to 549 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 3: examine critically what was happening to me and how I 550 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 3: was responding to it, and try and find ways and 551 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,439 Speaker 3: methods of surviving in a more healthy fashion. But in 552 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 3: that first one month that I spent in that extreme 553 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 3: solitary box, no way. I was just just trying to survive. 554 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 3: That was my only instinct. 555 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: Really, And the one hour a day that you weren't 556 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 1: in that box, where were you and what was happening? 557 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,439 Speaker 3: So they took us for half an hour in the 558 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 3: morning and half an hour in the evening to an 559 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 3: area called Tabajori, which was like a balcony about ten 560 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 3: meters in length with fully screened off by corrugated iron, 561 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 3: attached to the women's unit, and we were just I 562 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 3: would be allowed to pace backwards and forwards for half 563 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 3: an hour in the outside fresh air there. Yeah, And. 564 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: How many other people were in this space when you 565 00:28:58,680 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: were there? 566 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 3: Oh? Nobody, because when you're in solitary you can't see anybody, 567 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 3: that's the point. So you're alone there as well. 568 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: And could you see the sky? 569 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 4: Yes? 570 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 3: The sky was really the only free space I could see. 571 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 3: And you know, it's one reason why I called the 572 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 3: book the un Caged Sky, because actually I was in 573 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 3: a few different units with a few different harbory spaces, 574 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 3: and some of them actually had caged the sky, like 575 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 3: they had literally built metal bars above your head, so 576 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 3: that three hundred and sixty degrees of the space had 577 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 3: been caged in. And that was the worst because you 578 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 3: could look you had to look up through bars if 579 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 3: you wanted to watch the birds or the clouds or 580 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 3: look at the sun. But this particular one at the 581 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 3: beginning didn't have a cage, and you know, I would 582 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 3: just spend all my time looking up, following the various 583 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 3: birds in the trees, and you know, just looking at 584 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 3: the trees in the far off distance, and they would 585 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 3: lose their leaves in the autumn and rig grow them 586 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 3: in the spring, and so I'd be watching for buds 587 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 3: for you know, all that tree's got more leaves today, 588 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 3: and you know, observing the natural world, you know, was 589 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 3: how I liked to spend those half hour breaks outside. 590 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 1: And after the initial months, where did you go from there? 591 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 3: I went into a slightly biggest cell about three and 592 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 3: a half meters by one and a half and yet 593 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 3: it had that TV and that squatter toilet by yourself 594 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 3: help by myself. 595 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: Yes, and what were how how long were you in 596 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: there every day? And was there were you allowed in 597 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 1: gen pop or anything or. 598 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 3: Oh, exactly the same, So twenty three hours a day 599 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 3: in the cell, half an hour in the morning, half 600 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 3: an hour in the evening outside. 601 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 4: But I should note I was taken. 602 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 3: For interrogation still, So after the first few days of 603 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 3: kind of breaking me alone in that extreme solitary, they 604 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 3: started to take me for a few hours a day 605 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 3: for interrogation. And even when I moved to that slightly 606 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 3: larger cell with the squatter toilet attached, I was still 607 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 3: at times being taken for interrogation, but much less frequently, 608 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 3: maybe once a week or so. And I used to 609 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 3: like want to be interrogated even though they were really 610 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 3: horrible to me, because it was somebody to talk to 611 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 3: and I wasn't alone, yes, and. 612 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: You could interact and connect in a weird way. And yeah, 613 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: it's probably less painful than just sitting in a. 614 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 3: Box, definitely, Yeah, And they know it. They know that 615 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 3: you want to keep it going as long as possible 616 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 3: because you fear being left alone in that box afterwards, 617 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 3: And they sort of take advantage of that psychology as well. Yeah, 618 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 3: they know exactly what they're doing. 619 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 1: Wow, such evil people in the world. And so at 620 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: what stage in your eight hundred and how it was, 621 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 1: I don't know, in four days, at what stage did 622 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 1: you interact with other inmates where you could eat with 623 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: others and talk with others or did that not happen 624 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 1: or that it happened. 625 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 4: Oh, it happened. 626 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 3: So my first interactions were illicit communications, you know, that 627 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 3: were banned, you know, not allowed. But when I was 628 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 3: in that extreme solitary cell after about two weeks, a 629 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 3: couple of other prisoners across the hall from me had 630 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 3: heard me. They knew I was there, they knew I 631 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 3: was a foreigner. I didn't speak Facy, they'd spoke English 632 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 3: because they were very educated, and they'd heard me constantly 633 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 3: struggling trying to communicate in English with these prison guards, 634 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 3: heard me crying, heard me upset, and they reached out 635 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 3: to me, and they left some dried fruits and nuts 636 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 3: in a bag inside a pot plant that was in 637 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 3: the outdoor exercise area, and a small note for me 638 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 3: that they'd written on a square of toilet paper, basically 639 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 3: saying you're not alone, you know. Wow. Yeah, And they'd 640 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 3: written they'd scratched this stay strong, You're not alone. They 641 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 3: scratched this into the wall with a rock of the 642 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 3: outdoor exercise area too, and you know, it's it's very dangerous. 643 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 3: The guards are aware that they do these things, and 644 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 3: they punish them and they block up the wall again. 645 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 3: And it was very lucky that I found this gift 646 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 3: and this note that they'd left for me, and I 647 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 3: was able to put it in my underwear and take 648 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 3: it back to my cell and read it and eat 649 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 3: the fruits and nuts, and so we established a kind 650 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 3: of a note passing network. And I managed to steal 651 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 3: a pen at one point, and when I was in 652 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 3: the second cell with the bathroom, I hid my stolen 653 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 3: pen in the plumbing of the toilet, which because they 654 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 3: would search your cell every day, but they never went. 655 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 4: Into the plumbing because the toilet was pretty filthy. 656 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 3: I knew the guards wouldn't want to go near it. 657 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 3: So I managed to do that and correspond in English 658 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 3: with the neighboring cell. And later on we discovered we 659 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 3: could speak through in a conditioning vent in the middle 660 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 3: of the night when the guards had retired to their 661 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 3: guard's room, and I managed to sort of snatch ten 662 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 3: minutes every three days on a particular guard shift with 663 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 3: my neighbors English again, and these are the people who 664 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 3: gave me, you know, all the information I had about 665 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 3: where I was, who had arrested me, what would happen 666 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 3: to me, that I would be put on trial, that 667 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 3: I would probably be found guilty and then swapped with Australia, 668 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 3: you know, in a prisoner swap or something, that this 669 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 3: was a pattern of behavior that Iran regularly engaged in. 670 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 3: And also how I should handle the interrogations, what I 671 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 3: should or shouldn't do. You know, they gave me so 672 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 3: much useful information, and you know, as a foreigner with 673 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 3: no context or knowledge of Iran, really, you know, it 674 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 3: saved my life in a way, because you know, I 675 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,840 Speaker 3: might have made a false confession, I might have done anything, 676 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 3: and these guys really kept me on the right track 677 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 3: and also crucially made me understand I'm not alone and 678 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:45,759 Speaker 3: I'm not going through this alone, and there are others too, 679 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 3: and that they care about me and care about what 680 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 3: happens to me, and that I have friends. So that 681 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:52,319 Speaker 3: meant the world to me. 682 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 1: Wow, all that goodness and all that evil in one place. 683 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: Did you get to meet them face to face, Kylie? 684 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 3: Yes, I met well the first two who reached out 685 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 3: to me, one of them, Horda, She was bailed a 686 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 3: few months later, so I never met her face to face. 687 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 3: But Nil Alfar, who was the second inmate in that cell, 688 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 3: she became my roommate about ten months later, along with 689 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 3: her colleague Cepidere. And these two women became my sisters. 690 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 3: You know. I shared a cell with them for ten 691 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 3: or eleven months, and everything we did together, we knew 692 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 3: each other intimately, and they taught me so much, and 693 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 3: they became as close to me, if not closer than 694 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 3: an actual birth sister. So these women were just remarkable. 695 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 3: I had a number of other cell mates before them. 696 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 3: Some were evil, horrible people, and others were lovely and friendly. 697 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 3: And it really is, you know, the solidarity that develops 698 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 3: between fellow prisoners who are all but being put through 699 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,400 Speaker 3: hell and going through a horrific experience. It just is 700 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 3: It means everything to you. It's the difference between becoming 701 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 3: a bus case and finding a way to survive. And 702 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 3: I really credit that human connection and that support and 703 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 3: that sisterhood with getting me through really, isn't it? 704 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 1: Isn't it like when you break everything down and all 705 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 1: the bullshit in society and all the stuff we obsess 706 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,320 Speaker 1: about and focus on, and all the things we want 707 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,359 Speaker 1: and all the stuff that we think that we need, 708 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,640 Speaker 1: and all the problems that we think that we have. 709 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 1: But when you get to the lowest, lowest, lowest common 710 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,320 Speaker 1: denominator of a human in a box with no contact, 711 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: with no support, with no kindness, with no love, with 712 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,720 Speaker 1: no connection with at times I would think no hope 713 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: or seeming like no hope, just a bit of love? 714 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 1: What an incredible like somebody could offer you ten kilos 715 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 1: of gold or a hug, you know, or just like 716 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 1: fuck your gold, just talk to me, just listen to me, 717 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,759 Speaker 1: just be kind to me. Did that must have been 718 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 1: like the greatest gift? 719 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 3: Honestly it was. I mean, the first time someone actually 720 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 3: hugged me probably was several months. I hadn't been touched 721 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:18,239 Speaker 3: by another human being for several months, and just that 722 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 3: basic expression of care of compassion meant the world to me. 723 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 3: It was an incredible hug. And yeah, I mean, we 724 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 3: are group animals, human beings. We need others and this 725 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 3: is why solitary confinement is torture because we're not meant 726 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 3: to be alone for prolonged periods of time. You know, socially, 727 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,319 Speaker 3: we need others around us in order to survive. And 728 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,279 Speaker 3: it's that's why it's so damaging solitary confinement. And we 729 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,759 Speaker 3: need other people to care about us, and we need 730 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,399 Speaker 3: that interaction and that support and that friendship. I think 731 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:55,360 Speaker 3: it's vital. 732 00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,319 Speaker 1: Tell me about We'll give me a snap shot of 733 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,680 Speaker 1: the ten months that you spent in that room with 734 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 1: your sisters. 735 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,239 Speaker 3: Actually, we had a lot of fun. We got up 736 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,239 Speaker 3: to a lot of mischief. We did a lot of naughty, 737 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:11,240 Speaker 3: bad things. 738 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,439 Speaker 1: Thanks God, what naughty things did you do? 739 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 4: Oh? So well. 740 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 3: We went on several hunger strikes together making demands, and 741 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,839 Speaker 3: we organized a joint hunger strack with the men's unit 742 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,239 Speaker 3: because my friend Sipitera, her husband was in the men's 743 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,799 Speaker 3: unit Uman he was his name, and we were able 744 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 3: to pass a note to him during a family meeting 745 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 3: that she had with him and got some recruited some 746 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,200 Speaker 3: of the men who were downstairs to join us, and 747 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,680 Speaker 3: we really freaked out the prison authorities by having about 748 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 3: nine or ten person hunger strike all starting on the 749 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 3: one day when none of us was supposed to be 750 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 3: in contact with one another. So we did stuff like that, 751 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:53,239 Speaker 3: But we also managed to disrupt other prisoners interrogations by 752 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 3: yelling and screaming outside their windows when they were happening. 753 00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 3: We sipeter broke into one of the extreme solitary cells 754 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 3: and managed to go in when one of these prisoners 755 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 3: was in there and give her a hug and sit 756 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:09,360 Speaker 3: on the floor with her for a couple of minutes 757 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 3: before being extracted again. We would pass food and things 758 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:18,680 Speaker 3: to other prisoners. We would bribe some prison guards, sometimes 759 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,319 Speaker 3: with food of our own, to help to get them 760 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,760 Speaker 3: to turn a blind eye to us giving food items 761 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 3: to other prisoners, this kind of thing. You know, we 762 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 3: did a lot of resistance, and we occupied certain areas 763 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,760 Speaker 3: and refused to move, sat down on the ground, refused 764 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:35,880 Speaker 3: to leave until we got dragged away. And you know, 765 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:39,879 Speaker 3: we started resisting essentially and supported one another in these 766 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 3: schemes and these ideas as well. 767 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:48,880 Speaker 1: Amazing, amazing, And so how did how did you get out? Like? 768 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:54,839 Speaker 1: What transpired? What was the situation around that? Oh? 769 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,920 Speaker 3: Gosh, So I was ultimately on trial and convicted and 770 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 3: given a ten year prison sentence for espionage. 771 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:11,359 Speaker 1: I so fucking stupid anyway, I know, I. 772 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 3: Know it would have been funny if it wasn't so upsetting, 773 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,400 Speaker 3: but yeah, So I spent then about seven months in 774 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,120 Speaker 3: solitary following that conviction, and then I was transferred to 775 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,840 Speaker 3: a public prison where I was living amongst you know, 776 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:28,799 Speaker 3: everyday criminals and other women, which was actually great. I 777 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 3: much preferred being there. And at that time the Australian 778 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 3: government had undertaken negotiations with directly with the Revolutionary Guard, 779 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 3: course so not with the Uranian government, but with the 780 00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:42,840 Speaker 3: group that had arrested me, And after a few false 781 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,680 Speaker 3: starts and things falling through, they managed to get a 782 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 3: prisoner swap deal in place involving three convicted terrorists in 783 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:54,799 Speaker 3: Thailand who were also Revolutionary Guard members, and they were 784 00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 3: exchanged for me by the Australian government. 785 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,280 Speaker 1: When did you first have a conversation with an official 786 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:05,640 Speaker 1: from Australia. 787 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:09,839 Speaker 3: Yeah, I had an embassy visit at about the four 788 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 3: month mark. The ambassador came into the prison and I 789 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:16,319 Speaker 3: had a sort of a twenty minute visit with him, 790 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,120 Speaker 3: but I wasn't allowed to discuss anything, certainly not my case. 791 00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:21,319 Speaker 3: So it was sort of a health check or a 792 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,120 Speaker 3: proof of life or something. And I remember he was 793 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,839 Speaker 3: telling me some news from Australia, this kind of thing, 794 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,400 Speaker 3: telling me my family loved me and they cared about me, 795 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 3: and etc. But we weren't really allowed to discuss any 796 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:33,880 Speaker 3: of the particulars of what was happening to me or 797 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:34,360 Speaker 3: my case. 798 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 4: But I got. 799 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,799 Speaker 3: Banned from consular visits after a few months because of 800 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,640 Speaker 3: my resistance, so also got banned from family phone calls 801 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:45,560 Speaker 3: as a punishment. So I was cut off from the 802 00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,719 Speaker 3: Australian authorities for long stretches of time and didn't have 803 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:50,680 Speaker 3: any news or any information whatsoever. 804 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:57,160 Speaker 1: So what was what was the date of your liberation? 805 00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:59,600 Speaker 1: November twenty What date was it? 806 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:01,120 Speaker 3: Twenty fifth of November? 807 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,120 Speaker 1: Tell us about that day. 808 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 3: I had been visited by the Ambassador Lindel Sachs forty 809 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,719 Speaker 3: eight hours earlier in the prison, and she had told 810 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,160 Speaker 3: me we're going to get you out in two days. 811 00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:18,560 Speaker 3: But I didn't allow myself to believe it because it 812 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,160 Speaker 3: had been like this a few times before. I'd been 813 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 3: told something's happening, I'm going to get out and it 814 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,759 Speaker 3: never did, never happen, So I didn't want to give 815 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,680 Speaker 3: myself false hope, but I knew that that was the day, 816 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,480 Speaker 3: and I'd been taken out of the prison a day 817 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:34,880 Speaker 3: earlier as well, to the headquarters of the REV Guards 818 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:40,640 Speaker 3: in downtown Tehran. I'd met the envoy that Australia had 819 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,200 Speaker 3: sent to negotiate my release. He was present there in 820 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,400 Speaker 3: those headquarters, so I understood that something very serious was 821 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,360 Speaker 3: afoot and it was likely or possible I could be released. 822 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:53,520 Speaker 3: But on the day I was supposed to leave at 823 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:55,719 Speaker 3: nine am, and I was still there at midday and 824 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,959 Speaker 3: myself so clearly something was going wrong, and I thought, 825 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,200 Speaker 3: oh God, here we go. It's going to fall through again. 826 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,879 Speaker 3: But eventually, eventually I was taken out of my cell. 827 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:09,880 Speaker 3: I was handcuffed, blindfolded, putting a car, and first forced 828 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,120 Speaker 3: to film a propaganda interview. By that point, I had 829 00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,600 Speaker 3: taught myself Farsi, so I had to speak in Farsi 830 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,959 Speaker 3: to the camera in front of the prison gates, which 831 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,279 Speaker 3: was all ridiculous, and you know, I kind of did 832 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:23,759 Speaker 3: my best to sabotage the interview, but they sort of 833 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:25,920 Speaker 3: forced me to do that before they would let me go. 834 00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:30,200 Speaker 3: And then they dropped me at the Ambassador's residence in Tehran, 835 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:34,279 Speaker 3: and from there me, the ambassador, and the envoy got 836 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,879 Speaker 3: into a car and we drove to the airport and 837 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,960 Speaker 3: I was put on I guess like a private plane 838 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:45,000 Speaker 3: in the rev Guards wing of Mehrabad Airport a few 839 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,120 Speaker 3: hours later and flown from the country. 840 00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:48,440 Speaker 1: Where did you fly to? 841 00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:53,840 Speaker 3: We actually landed in Doha in Qatar, first stayed overnight 842 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,520 Speaker 3: there in the airport, and then the next day continued 843 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:57,320 Speaker 3: on to Australia. 844 00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:00,000 Speaker 1: What was that like getting on that plane flying out 845 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,080 Speaker 1: first time? When you're like clear, you're off the runway, 846 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:04,680 Speaker 1: you're three minutes in the air. 847 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:09,040 Speaker 3: Honestly, I was still on tenterhooks because I just until 848 00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:13,840 Speaker 3: I left Hernian airspace, I just could not fully allow 849 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:15,880 Speaker 3: myself to believe that I was free. 850 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:18,640 Speaker 4: And the Red Guards had actually said. 851 00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:20,359 Speaker 3: To me a couple of times, Oh, we can let 852 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:22,040 Speaker 3: you get on a plane, but we can force it 853 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:23,960 Speaker 3: to turn around in the air and force you to 854 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,319 Speaker 3: land still, and if we want to bring you back, 855 00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:29,440 Speaker 3: we will. And you know, I had all those thoughts 856 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:31,960 Speaker 3: in my head and was still kind of highly strong 857 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 3: and stressed until I'd received word that we'd crossed out 858 00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:37,879 Speaker 3: of Iranian airspace and then I could properly breathe again 859 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,000 Speaker 3: and understand, Yeah, it's really happened. 860 00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:40,480 Speaker 4: You're free. 861 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 2: Wow. 862 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:45,160 Speaker 1: Yeah when you got back to Australia, and maybe you 863 00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:48,239 Speaker 1: still don't feel normal, but I mean, it wasn't that 864 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,520 Speaker 1: long ago. Like it's not like it was twelve years ago. 865 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,320 Speaker 1: I mean it's not even two years yet. Yeah, you 866 00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,640 Speaker 1: got back. It's less than like, what is it now, 867 00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:01,239 Speaker 1: it's about twenty two months or something like that. How 868 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:05,879 Speaker 1: long before you kind of felt safe ish, normal ish 869 00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:11,600 Speaker 1: and I don't know, less anxious or is it still 870 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:12,040 Speaker 1: a work? 871 00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,080 Speaker 3: It's definitely still a journey. I'm on. I don't think 872 00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,799 Speaker 3: I've got to the end of it yet. I was 873 00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,319 Speaker 3: doing really well until the Melbourne lockdowns in twenty twenty one, 874 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,160 Speaker 3: because that just sort of felt like a curtailment of 875 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:28,719 Speaker 3: my freedom again. You know, I wanted to just be 876 00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:30,840 Speaker 3: free to do what I wanted, and you know, a 877 00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:32,759 Speaker 3: lot of my family live in New South Wales. I 878 00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,040 Speaker 3: wanted to be able to see my family cross the border, 879 00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:38,760 Speaker 3: you know, drive to see friends more than five kilometers away, 880 00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:41,440 Speaker 3: and just be out and about enjoying my freedom. And 881 00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:45,040 Speaker 3: that kind of knocked me around a bit those lockdowns, 882 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:47,920 Speaker 3: but yeah, I mean I think it took me some 883 00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,960 Speaker 3: months to feel properly safe. I was very hyper vigilant 884 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:56,680 Speaker 3: and aware of security cameras in particular, but also anyone 885 00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:00,960 Speaker 3: walking past or looking suspicious or might be hanging around 886 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,200 Speaker 3: a bit too much or you know. I was very 887 00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:09,719 Speaker 3: uber vigilant and looking out for threats I guess, and 888 00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:14,279 Speaker 3: not fully settled or feeling safe. And in a way, 889 00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,480 Speaker 3: I still have that tendency a little bit, but it's 890 00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:17,799 Speaker 3: definitely faded over time. 891 00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,279 Speaker 1: Do you have PTSD? Do you think? 892 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:24,040 Speaker 3: No? I don't. 893 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:30,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, great, And so what do you do to what 894 00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:32,440 Speaker 1: do you do for your mental health? I mean we 895 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,359 Speaker 1: all have mental health challenges pretty much everyone, but anxiety 896 00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:41,640 Speaker 1: or overthinking or depression or that rumination do you how 897 00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,000 Speaker 1: do you manage that day to day? 898 00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:46,319 Speaker 4: Yeah? I have some of that. 899 00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,120 Speaker 3: For me, the most effective way of managing that is 900 00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:53,120 Speaker 3: just to be running in nature. I live in a 901 00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:56,440 Speaker 3: very beautiful part of Victoria in the Dandenong Ranges and 902 00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:59,560 Speaker 3: I have a beautiful nature reserved near my house and 903 00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:04,600 Speaker 3: every day, especially during lockdown, I would run. I would 904 00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,520 Speaker 3: see kangaroos every day, I would see lots of beautiful 905 00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,239 Speaker 3: parrots and birds, and I would just be alone in 906 00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:13,560 Speaker 3: the green amidst the trees, running and I found that 907 00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,640 Speaker 3: really really soothing for my mental health, and it just 908 00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:19,680 Speaker 3: allowed me to think, allowed me time to as I 909 00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:23,160 Speaker 3: was running, to process things and just think, and alone 910 00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:25,920 Speaker 3: time me time to just go through thoughts that I 911 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:29,240 Speaker 3: had in my head and make sense of them. So honestly, 912 00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:34,239 Speaker 3: I think that being out in nature and having that, like, yeah, 913 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:36,680 Speaker 3: that time in nature to run and exercise each day 914 00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:39,719 Speaker 3: was what got me through, to be honest. 915 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:42,719 Speaker 1: Think about this. Think about you in a box, in 916 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:46,319 Speaker 1: a concrete box with no windows, with no stimulation, with 917 00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:53,040 Speaker 1: no pillow, no blanket or no sheets, no toilet, in 918 00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:59,359 Speaker 1: the worst environment, under the worst conditions, and then in 919 00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:04,040 Speaker 1: the days running with the kangaroos. I mean, it's the 920 00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:07,759 Speaker 1: opposite end of the scale, right, Yeah. 921 00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,920 Speaker 3: And I'd been craving that, I think, you know, I'd 922 00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:12,200 Speaker 3: been craving trees. 923 00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:13,440 Speaker 4: I've been craving. 924 00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:16,239 Speaker 3: Green because when you're in prison, especially in a big 925 00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,440 Speaker 3: urban city. You know, there's so much smog in Tehran 926 00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:22,040 Speaker 3: that often you wouldn't even see blue sky because there'd 927 00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:23,040 Speaker 3: be so much epollution. 928 00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:28,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, I wanted to be in a forest 929 00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:30,759 Speaker 5: or at a beach, or I wanted to be outside 930 00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:33,960 Speaker 5: somewhere and not just be caged in concrete and. 931 00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:36,839 Speaker 3: Iron bars and you know, rais of wire and this 932 00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:40,080 Speaker 3: kind of thing all the time. So being able to 933 00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:43,600 Speaker 3: just drink in that green and have that nature around 934 00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:46,319 Speaker 3: me just, yeah, it meant the world to me, really 935 00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:47,440 Speaker 3: helped with my recovery. 936 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:52,080 Speaker 1: Is there was there a spiritual kind of component to 937 00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:53,720 Speaker 1: your existence, Kyli? 938 00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:59,919 Speaker 3: Yes, I do think in a way you draw close 939 00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,200 Speaker 3: to God when you go through such an experience. I 940 00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:08,440 Speaker 3: mean I saw both. Most prisoners think about religion obviously 941 00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:11,640 Speaker 3: when they're going through some sort of horrific ordeal. The 942 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:16,200 Speaker 3: ones who came in religious often either they would cling 943 00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:18,799 Speaker 3: to the religion and pray five times a day and 944 00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:21,160 Speaker 3: you know, like we're talking about Muslims here, so you 945 00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:24,319 Speaker 3: know they have set prayers five times a day and 946 00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:29,040 Speaker 3: do all the extra prayers and extra you know, fasting 947 00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:33,319 Speaker 3: on Ramadan and everything, or they would become completely disillusioned 948 00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:35,759 Speaker 3: with it and say, God, where are you? 949 00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:36,600 Speaker 4: How did you let this. 950 00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:40,440 Speaker 3: Happen to me? And you know, let it slide. So 951 00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:45,400 Speaker 3: as a sort of a secular person. I definitely started 952 00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:47,879 Speaker 3: praying more when I was in there than I ever 953 00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:48,799 Speaker 3: would have outside. 954 00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:53,560 Speaker 1: How are you if you crystal bullet or we step 955 00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:56,399 Speaker 1: into an alternate reality and we go, let's say that 956 00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:59,959 Speaker 1: never happened. How do you think you're a different person? 957 00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:03,879 Speaker 1: And too, you know, the Kylie that would have been 958 00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:09,279 Speaker 1: on that alternate path of your life minus this eight 959 00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:12,240 Speaker 1: one hundred and four days of you know, misery. 960 00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:17,720 Speaker 3: It's hard to say. I don't think that the fundamentals 961 00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,279 Speaker 3: of who I am as a person have changed that dramatically. 962 00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:24,279 Speaker 3: I think I've learned more about myself and who I 963 00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,440 Speaker 3: am as a result of this trial. It's a trial 964 00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:29,759 Speaker 3: that I had to go through in my life, and 965 00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:32,040 Speaker 3: there have been blessings that have come out of that too. 966 00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:34,839 Speaker 3: You know, I've learnt so much about myself and about 967 00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:38,000 Speaker 3: human nature and about others and about the people around 968 00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:39,799 Speaker 3: me as well. I mean, who has your back and 969 00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:43,320 Speaker 3: who doesn't. When you go through such a traumatic experience, 970 00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:47,160 Speaker 3: it tells you a lot. So I actually, you know, 971 00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:48,920 Speaker 3: try and look on the bright side and see it 972 00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:51,520 Speaker 3: as a positive thing. And I don't know if I've 973 00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,880 Speaker 3: dramatically changed as a person. I think I'm more confident 974 00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:59,839 Speaker 3: and less tolerant of people's bs, less some caring about 975 00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:03,960 Speaker 3: what people think of me, more strident in expressing my opinions. 976 00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:07,520 Speaker 3: But as a human being, I think I'm essentially the same. 977 00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:13,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, did you have to do? You have to work 978 00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:20,120 Speaker 1: at not being bitter, twisted, angry, residentful, mad, violent at 979 00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:22,160 Speaker 1: the people who did all this bullshit to you? 980 00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:26,040 Speaker 3: Oh? Definitely, And I'd say I probably am all of 981 00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:29,800 Speaker 3: those things that you just said. It's more about trying 982 00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,880 Speaker 3: to find a way, a positive direction to push it 983 00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:36,840 Speaker 3: in rather than just lashing out at everyone around me 984 00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:41,000 Speaker 3: and flailing about, screaming at the unfairness of it all. 985 00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:44,279 Speaker 3: I'm trying to channel because I do have a lot 986 00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:46,960 Speaker 3: of rage inside me. I'm very angry about what happened 987 00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:51,640 Speaker 3: to me and certain individuals, organizations, and actors that were 988 00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:55,280 Speaker 3: involved in it. And I'm trying to channel that anger 989 00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:58,720 Speaker 3: and rage in a positive direction by trying to support 990 00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:02,359 Speaker 3: the family members of others were unjustly held abroad, by 991 00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:05,920 Speaker 3: trying to support the Uranian human rights movement. I'm in 992 00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:07,960 Speaker 3: touch with a lot of the families and even some 993 00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:10,600 Speaker 3: of my former prisoners themselves who have been let out. 994 00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:14,920 Speaker 3: Trying to support them and raising my voice and drawing 995 00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:18,080 Speaker 3: attention to what Iran is doing and the phenomenon of 996 00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:21,600 Speaker 3: arbitrary detention or hostage diplomacy as well. All these things 997 00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:24,400 Speaker 3: are positive ways I can try and channel that anger, 998 00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:28,400 Speaker 3: but I certainly do struggle sometimes with the resentment and 999 00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:31,520 Speaker 3: the just heare the rage at it all? 1000 00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:32,280 Speaker 4: For sure? 1001 00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:37,680 Speaker 1: How dare you be human? And so? How dare you? 1002 00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:38,400 Speaker 3: So? 1003 00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,400 Speaker 1: Is this your mission for now? Your mission is to 1004 00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,400 Speaker 1: bring light to this stuff and to speak to groups 1005 00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:49,120 Speaker 1: and to spread that message and I guess shine a 1006 00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:51,360 Speaker 1: light on all of this bad stuff that's happening. 1007 00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:53,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, i'd say so. 1008 00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:55,640 Speaker 3: I don't know if I have a specific mission, but 1009 00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:57,960 Speaker 3: I certainly feel like this is something that I should 1010 00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:00,520 Speaker 3: be doing. A lot of people have reached out to me, 1011 00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:04,760 Speaker 3: especially on the back of the book. We have several 1012 00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:09,000 Speaker 3: high profile Australians who are hostages abroad in foreign prisons 1013 00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:13,319 Speaker 3: in places like Chinami and mah Iraq, And there are 1014 00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:15,920 Speaker 3: also a lot of foreigners who are in Iran, and 1015 00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:17,840 Speaker 3: a lot of them have reached out to me, to 1016 00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:20,400 Speaker 3: their families, you know, in the UK and the US, 1017 00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:24,600 Speaker 3: in Germany and Austria and France, Belgium. You know, there's 1018 00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:28,399 Speaker 3: a lot and there's a strange community of us too, 1019 00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:32,560 Speaker 3: a strange community of return to hostages and very active 1020 00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:35,319 Speaker 3: campaigning families of current hostages, and we all know each 1021 00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:38,680 Speaker 3: other and swap ideas and talk, and that's really nice 1022 00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:39,120 Speaker 3: as well. 1023 00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:43,279 Speaker 1: You know, I guess having that albeit not a not 1024 00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:45,680 Speaker 1: something anyone wants to have in common, but you have 1025 00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:48,680 Speaker 1: that in common, and so there's a I guess there's 1026 00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:51,440 Speaker 1: a connection that you can have with people who have 1027 00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:53,960 Speaker 1: got family members in that situation or who have been 1028 00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:57,719 Speaker 1: in that situation themselves that you can't have with others. 1029 00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:02,520 Speaker 3: Exactly. No one else understands. You can't. No one else 1030 00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:05,800 Speaker 3: can properly get what we went through in that place 1031 00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:09,640 Speaker 3: unless they've been through it. To no amount of me 1032 00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:12,239 Speaker 3: trying to explain or describe will ever really convey that 1033 00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:15,600 Speaker 3: to someone. But the others who were there with me, 1034 00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:19,360 Speaker 3: or people who've been through this prison system before me, 1035 00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:22,319 Speaker 3: they get it, they understand, and so it's actually really 1036 00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:24,560 Speaker 3: valuable to be able to talk with them as well 1037 00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:26,760 Speaker 3: in terms of healing and processing things. 1038 00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:29,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the best therapy for you. I would think, 1039 00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:32,840 Speaker 1: what about your sisters that you spent your cheeky rubble 1040 00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:36,360 Speaker 1: trouble making sisters that you spent ten months with. Do 1041 00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:37,919 Speaker 1: you ever talk to them? 1042 00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:41,719 Speaker 3: I have spoken to them, yes, but they are still 1043 00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:45,839 Speaker 3: in prison, so wow. A couple of the times they've 1044 00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:48,680 Speaker 3: been out because they got COVID or for some medical reason. 1045 00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,680 Speaker 3: But unfortunately, more than five years after they arrest Sipia 1046 00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:55,279 Speaker 3: and Nilufar and Sipiter's husband to mine and they're in 1047 00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:58,080 Speaker 3: a group of eight, they're all still in prison, and 1048 00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:01,840 Speaker 3: they're innocent, and you know, they're just some of the 1049 00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:05,400 Speaker 3: many thousands of innocent people that are Ryan's imprisoned because 1050 00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:10,480 Speaker 3: of political reasons or because of unfounded espionage allegations or whatever. 1051 00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:13,560 Speaker 3: So it's heartbreaking to me, really, and I think of 1052 00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:14,080 Speaker 3: them often. 1053 00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:18,279 Speaker 1: It is heartbreaking. So the name of your book is 1054 00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:21,200 Speaker 1: The Uncaged Sky, My eight hundred and four Days in 1055 00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:25,800 Speaker 1: an around in prison in all good bookstores and crap 1056 00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:30,800 Speaker 1: ones and online. Is there an audio version, Kylie? 1057 00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:31,719 Speaker 3: There is? 1058 00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:33,600 Speaker 4: Yes, I read it myself. 1059 00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:36,839 Speaker 1: In fact, yeah, I like it when authors do their 1060 00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:39,080 Speaker 1: own books because I kind of feel like I get 1061 00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:43,480 Speaker 1: to know the author. Thank you so much for having 1062 00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:45,839 Speaker 1: to chat with us. I could go on for another hour, 1063 00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:48,120 Speaker 1: because there are so many other things I would like 1064 00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:51,400 Speaker 1: to quiz you on in terms of the psychology and 1065 00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:55,840 Speaker 1: sociology of getting through this and self managing and navigating 1066 00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:59,600 Speaker 1: and moving forwards, but I don't want to take up 1067 00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:03,200 Speaker 1: too much your time. How do people find you or 1068 00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:06,120 Speaker 1: connect with you, or follow you or pay you an 1069 00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,040 Speaker 1: obscene amounts? Come and talk to their group. 1070 00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:13,960 Speaker 3: You can contact me on Twitter or Instagram. It's Twitter 1071 00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:17,600 Speaker 3: is at k Moore Gilbert. Instagram is Kylie Moore Gilbert. 1072 00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:22,520 Speaker 3: I have a publicly available email address on my Twitter account, 1073 00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:25,080 Speaker 3: Kylie MG atprotonmail dot com. 1074 00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:29,440 Speaker 1: Awesome, well we will. We will promote your book ya 1075 00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:32,160 Speaker 1: our when we put out all this to the world 1076 00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:35,799 Speaker 1: once again. Gain everyone the Young Cage sky My eight 1077 00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:38,839 Speaker 1: hundred and four days in an Iranian prison. I'm going 1078 00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:43,960 Speaker 1: to buy the book on What's that thing I have? 1079 00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:48,120 Speaker 1: Melissa Audible, Thank you Audible. I'm going to buy it 1080 00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:50,319 Speaker 1: on Audible when I get off here, and I'm going 1081 00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:54,680 Speaker 1: to start listening today. So we appreciate you, Kylie, Thank 1082 00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:56,759 Speaker 1: you so much. Stay there. We'll say goodbye, affair, but 1083 00:56:56,840 --> 00:56:59,880 Speaker 1: thanks for being on the new project. Where really glad you? 1084 00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:02,719 Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me on Craig. It's been 1085 00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:03,160 Speaker 3: a pleasure. 1086 00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:06,240 Speaker 1: Thank you, Thanks Melissa, thank you both. 1087 00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:08,440 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, what a story. I'm so sorry you 1088 00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:10,439 Speaker 2: had to go through that, but thank you so much 1089 00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:12,080 Speaker 2: for sharing it. Appreciate it. 1090 00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:13,279 Speaker 1: Thanks everyone, Love you,