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Speaker 1: I get a team. Welcome to another installment of the

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Speaker 1: You Project. Craig, Anthony Harper, Melissa, Marie Cameron, and Kylie.

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Speaker 1: We're not sure what her middle name is, but we'll

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Speaker 1: find out. Kylie Moore Gilbert. Welcome to another show. Everyone high, Melissa, Hello,

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Speaker 1: how are you? Oh bloody good? If the sun's out,

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Speaker 1: the birds singing, the bees are buzzing. I just took

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Speaker 1: one of the motorbikes out of the garards for a

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Speaker 1: little bit of stretching of the metaphoric legs, and I

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Speaker 1: lifted some heavy shit at the gym. And it's still

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Speaker 1: only one five and I'm about to have a scintillating conversation.

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Speaker 1: So for me, win our chicken dinner. It's been a

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Speaker 1: good day, fantastic.

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Speaker 2: And have you been enjoying your I think it's the

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Speaker 2: National Day of Morning or something. That's what they're calling

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Speaker 2: it today.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if that's like, that's a loaded question.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot. I feel like I'm not meant to

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Speaker 1: enjoy a National Day of Morning, rush, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Let's ask Kylie. She's smarter than us. She will know

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Speaker 1: the appropriate answer for that.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Kylie, Hey, thanks for having me on Craig.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, welcome to the You project. What do you do?

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Speaker 1: And on our national day of mourning, allegedly our national

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Speaker 1: day of mourning other than talking to a buffet end Hampton,

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Speaker 1: I mean.

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Speaker 2: Other than wearing black and shedding tears and lighting candle.

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Speaker 2: So I'm kind of chilling at home, going to go

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Speaker 2: on a run this afternoon and maybe spend some time

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Speaker 2: in my garden.

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Speaker 1: Are you Are you an avid gardener or a casual gardener.

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Speaker 2: I'm a casual gardener. Yes, only when the weather's good.

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Speaker 2: Do I bother going out there.

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Speaker 1: I'm a little bit with you. I have the lowest

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Speaker 1: maintenance garden in the world. I had it built. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure you don't get built created, I don't know, planted

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Speaker 1: about ten years ago. It's primarily bamboo trees that create

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Speaker 1: a screen around my house. And they are about twenty

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Speaker 1: meters not twenty meters, twenty feet or six meters higher

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Speaker 1: than the top of my house. So I have this beautiful,

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Speaker 1: wow green screen. And I live in suburbia, so when

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Speaker 1: I look out all the windows in my house, I

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Speaker 1: can't see any suburbia, any road, any traffic. I just

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Speaker 1: see trees. So I feel like I'm in the middle

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Speaker 1: of something not urban's okay, bamboo jungle. Are you a

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Speaker 1: an avid runner or a casual runner?

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Speaker 2: I am an avid runner who's sort of casual at

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Speaker 2: the moment, trying to get back into avid if that makes.

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Speaker 1: Sense there, No, there's a scale. Have you done any

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Speaker 1: not that it matters. Have you done any runs? Like,

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Speaker 1: have you ever done a half or a full marathon

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Speaker 1: or anything like that.

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Speaker 2: I've done one half before, Yeah, how'd you go? I've

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Speaker 2: never done a full? Oh not bad, but actually it

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Speaker 2: was in the UK and it was snowing at the time,

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Speaker 2: so that really set me back and kind of put

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Speaker 2: me off doing another one. But I might someday.

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Speaker 1: That's yeah, I reckon doing half a marathon in the

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Speaker 1: snow is analogous to a full marathon not in the snow.

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Speaker 1: So I'll give you an honorary marathon a title. You're welcome.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. I don't know if I can claim that. Yes,

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Speaker 2: it was tough.

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Speaker 1: Tell people what you do at the moment before we

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Speaker 1: go round and round with your story and back and forth.

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Speaker 1: But like, what's your job as we sit here at

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Speaker 1: the twenty second of September twenty twenty two. What's your job, Kylie?

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Speaker 1: What do you do?

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Speaker 2: I don't have a job at the moment, per se am.

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Speaker 2: I wrote a book called The Uncaged Sky, and that

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Speaker 2: came out about five or six months ago now, so

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Speaker 2: my quote unquote job for the past half year has

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Speaker 2: been promoting the book and I've been doing very speaking

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Speaker 2: engagements as well, so that's taking up the amount of

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Speaker 2: my time as well as doing what's of advocacy stuff

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Speaker 2: as well, human rights and you know, hostage diplomacy, advocacy

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Speaker 2: behind the scenes.

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Speaker 1: That's a job. Well, it's not a job, but it's work. Well,

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Speaker 1: if we're being technical, I've had a job for thirty

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Speaker 1: two years, so we're both unemployed. How's the book? Has

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Speaker 1: the book gone?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's going pretty well. I've had a very positive reception.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people have given me great feedback on it.

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Speaker 2: So no, that's all that matters to me really. I

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Speaker 2: just want to get the message out about what's happening

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Speaker 2: in Iran and the phenomenon of arbitrary detention that you know,

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Speaker 2: I got caught up in, and if that's happening, then

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Speaker 2: I'm happy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, amazing. All right, Well let's start there. I was

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Speaker 1: going to get there eventually, but let's start there. So

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Speaker 1: your book was called The Uncaged Sky, My eight hundred

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Speaker 1: and four Days in an Iranian Prison, which has been

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Speaker 1: shortlisted for the twenty twenty two Nonfiction Age Book of

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Speaker 1: the Year. Congratulations, So you must have done a good job.

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Speaker 1: Is it your first book? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: My first book? Actually? Yeah, I was writing a book

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Speaker 2: when I was arrested, can you believe? And that book

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Speaker 2: has now been canned because it's out of date, which

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Speaker 2: is very frustrating, one of the unintended consequences of getting

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Speaker 2: thrown in prison in a foreign country. But that book

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Speaker 2: was sort of an academic work based on my PhD.

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Speaker 2: So this is the first non academic piece of writing

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Speaker 2: I've ever really published.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, wow, Yeah, I've done it the other way around.

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Speaker 1: I've published only non academic things, and now, two hundred

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Speaker 1: and fifteen years of age, I'm writing academic papers, which

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Speaker 1: is ridiculous. Can you help? Do you like writing academic stuff?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 2: I used to like it. I'm pretty good at it,

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Speaker 2: but now I find it quite try and boring. Can

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Speaker 2: you believe?

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Speaker 1: So? Shit, why don't you just discovered this? Well?

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Speaker 2: Look, I always thought my research topics were very interesting,

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Speaker 2: and you know, my research was in political science, mainly

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Speaker 2: focusing on the Middle East, so a lot of stuff's

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Speaker 2: happening in that space, and I found the research really interesting.

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Speaker 2: But the actual writing and the style of writing that

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Speaker 2: you need to adopt in academia, it's, yeah, it's pretty boring.

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Speaker 2: It's pretty unreadable to the average person as well. I

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Speaker 2: much prefer, you know, like my book, something that's a

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Speaker 2: bit more accessible and easy to read and more fun

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Speaker 2: to write as well.

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Speaker 1: Was it liberating being although I'm sure recounting everything wasn't

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Speaker 1: particularly enjoyable at times, but it was liberating and also

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Speaker 1: therapeutic writing it or was it something else?

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Speaker 2: Oh, it was definitely therapeutic. It was cathartic. I just

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Speaker 2: it poured out of me. You know, I actually wrote

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Speaker 2: twice the amount that's in the book, and I essentially

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Speaker 2: had to cut it in half, which was a very

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Speaker 2: torturous process because you know, you're very attached to every

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Speaker 2: anecdote into every part of the story. But yeah, it

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Speaker 2: just helped me process everything. It helped me make sense

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Speaker 2: of what happened to me, and I guess put it

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Speaker 2: into order in my mind because it was all jumbled

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Speaker 2: mess before that. So I found it to be a

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Speaker 2: really therapeutic exercise. Actually, I really enjoyed the writing process.

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Speaker 1: So let me guess it started out at about one

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Speaker 1: hundred and sixty thousand, and you wound it down to

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Speaker 1: bad id.

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Speaker 2: It was about two hundred and twenty thousand. Oh wow,

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Speaker 2: and now it's one hundred and forty so it's even

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Speaker 2: that's a book. Yes, yes, it's at the max of

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Speaker 2: They told me you can't even add one more page

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Speaker 2: because we don't have enough paper for the printers. We've

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Speaker 2: already bought the paper and we've got we've scheduled the

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Speaker 2: max number of pages, and you've just about to exceed it.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, it was a real wow.

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Speaker 1: That is a really big book. One hundred and forty

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Speaker 1: thousand words. I'm guessing that is around four hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty pages or something.

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Speaker 2: I don't even know how many pages. It's probably probably

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Speaker 2: four hundred odd pages. Maybe that's a lot.

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Speaker 1: And how long did that take you to write?

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Speaker 2: Ten months? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Wow? All right, so let's talk about let me just

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Speaker 1: I'm stealing this straight from Mia Friedman. Thank you, Maya

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Speaker 1: from No Filter. Let's give her a plug as well,

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Speaker 1: thanks mea, Thanks Mia. Shout out to Maya. On the

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Speaker 1: twelfth of September twenty eighteen, Australian academic Kylie Moore Gilbert

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Speaker 1: was rested in Tehran's International Airport in Range. She spent

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Speaker 1: eight hundred and four days incarcerated in Tehran's Evan And

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Speaker 1: how do I say? That? Is a karchak carchack karchak

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Speaker 1: prison for espionage, a crime she never committed. She was

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Speaker 1: in an Australian stuck in a foreign prison with no

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Speaker 1: way of getting home. Kylie's story about her imprisonment and

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Speaker 1: what happened after she was finally released is unbelievable, except

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Speaker 1: it really happened. Do you get bored of telling this story?

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Speaker 1: I don't want you to feel like you're in groundhog Day?

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Speaker 1: But do you get bored recounting this?

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Speaker 2: No? No, I don't get bored. No, I mean it is.

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Speaker 2: You know, I've done a few interviews for the book,

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Speaker 2: and sometimes they're a bit groundhog Day. But also if

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Speaker 2: it's a good interviewer, you know, you guys all think

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Speaker 2: of new stuff to ask at, new angles and comments

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Speaker 2: on it, so you know, it is my life, so

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Speaker 2: to talk about it if it actually happened to you,

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Speaker 2: then it is if it's just some you know, specialty,

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Speaker 2: your expertise you've got.

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Speaker 1: So that's right, and it's not like you've got to

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Speaker 1: It's not like you've got to try and recall data

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Speaker 1: from something you read, like you're literally recounting your experience.

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Speaker 1: All right, Start wherever you want, and I'll try not

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Speaker 1: to interject too much. So how did this end up

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Speaker 1: that you were arrested at an international airport and spent

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Speaker 1: is what is that sober? Two years in Jaiga?

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Speaker 2: Two years and three months. Yeah, I went to Iran

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Speaker 2: for a two and a half week trip. That was,

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Speaker 2: I guess a business trip proof by my university, and

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Speaker 2: i'd attended a one week conference there and I was

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Speaker 2: actually invited to come by an Iranian university to that conference,

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Speaker 2: and it was specifically for foreigners. I wasn't a scholar

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Speaker 2: of Iran. I was studying the Arab states off the

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Speaker 2: Persian Gulf, you know, particularly Bahrain actually at the time,

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Speaker 2: and it was sort of relevant to my research, especially

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Speaker 2: the religious aspect. I needed to learn more about that,

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Speaker 2: so I thought it would be a good opportunity. And

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Speaker 2: because of my research project, I met a few people

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Speaker 2: in Iran who I interviewed for that the research project

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Speaker 2: was about Bahrain again, not about Iran. And I had

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Speaker 2: a great time and I did a little bit of

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Speaker 2: tourism too and met some interesting people and to the

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Speaker 2: airport to fly back home and was approached by a

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Speaker 2: group of men and told they have a warrant for

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Speaker 2: my arrest and that I'm not going to be making

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Speaker 2: the flight and instead I need to come and be

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Speaker 2: interrogated by them. So yeah, it was It was quite

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Speaker 2: a shock. And I hadn't done anything wrong, so you

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Speaker 2: just you know, yeah, initially you tell yourself, well, I'm innocent,

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Speaker 2: so they'll figure that out and they'll let me go.

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Speaker 2: They'll realize it's a bit a mistake or a misunderstanding.

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Speaker 2: But I came to understand pretty quickly that that didn't matter.

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Speaker 2: You know, they didn't care if I was innocent or guilty.

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Speaker 2: I had some sort of value as a foreigner. It's

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Speaker 2: a foreign citizen that they saw that they could trade

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Speaker 2: me for something, some diplomatic leverage. I'm a UK citizen

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Speaker 2: as well, so either from the UK or Australia, and

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Speaker 2: you know, I just became a kind of a hostage

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Speaker 2: in a way.

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Speaker 1: Is that looking back, is that do you believe that

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Speaker 1: that's the reason that they just identified you as potentially

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Speaker 1: a valuable pawn in a political game.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that's the initial reason why they picked

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Speaker 2: me up. What happened was a chap that I had

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Speaker 2: met in the city of Kom which was where the

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Speaker 2: conference was being held. He was a Bahraini guy living

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Speaker 2: in Iran, and I interviewed him about Bahrain. He had

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Speaker 2: some sort of connection to the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps,

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Speaker 2: which is the militant group that arrested me. They are

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Speaker 2: kind of a state within a state in Iran. They're

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Speaker 2: not the government, but they're kind of associated with the government,

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Speaker 2: and so he had either been working for them as

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Speaker 2: an informer or might have even been arrested by them,

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Speaker 2: but he had some link to them, and it was

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Speaker 2: him that dabbed me in and flagged me as somebody

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Speaker 2: of interest or somebody suspicious with this IGC Revolutionary Guard Corps,

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Speaker 2: and that is why they initially picked me up. But

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Speaker 2: then obviously they once they picked me up, they weren't

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Speaker 2: going to let me go. And if they knew that

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Speaker 2: I'd done nothing wrong, why Because they had value that.

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Speaker 2: They have a history of arresting foreigners and using them

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Speaker 2: as a bargaining chip in a transaction with the country

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Speaker 2: of origin, whether that be US, Canada, UK, Germany, Australia wherever.

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Speaker 2: They've done it many times before, going back to the

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy nine hostage crisis where they took all of

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Speaker 2: the US embassy staff hostage for more than four hundred days.

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Speaker 2: So they know what pays dividends for them. If they

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Speaker 2: catch some sort of genuine spy, great, but if they

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Speaker 2: catch an innocent person, well that's also great because they

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Speaker 2: can just trade you for something. So that's how they operate.

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Speaker 2: And I think they knew that I wasn't. I was

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Speaker 2: ultimately charged with spying. I think they knew I wasn't

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Speaker 2: actually a spy, and that was ludicrous a. I think

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Speaker 2: that was just the sort of you know, narrative that

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Speaker 2: they were.

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Speaker 1: Sin justify it. Someway, Yeah exactly, yeah, yeah. What were

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Speaker 1: you at the airport by yourself, Kylie? Or were you

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Speaker 1: with someone?

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Speaker 2: No? I was by myself.

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Speaker 1: Oh god, so you couldn't even tell it, like there

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Speaker 1: was no one even there that could ring someone and

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Speaker 1: go this is what's going.

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Speaker 2: On nobody, and I was actually, when I was being arrested,

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Speaker 2: I was looking around frantically trying to catch somebody's eye,

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Speaker 2: you know, an Iranian foreign tourist, anyone, and nobody would

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Speaker 2: look at me. Everyone sort of gave us a white

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Speaker 2: berth and I wanted to scream and shout, but you know,

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Speaker 2: I had nobody there, And yeah, it was It was

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Speaker 2: quite terrifying. Were you thirty three?

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Speaker 1: That's crazy, that's and I mean, I know this is

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Speaker 1: dumb because I think I know the answer, But in

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Speaker 1: that moment where you're bewildered, you're overwhelmed, it's ridiculous, It

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Speaker 1: makes no sense, and you're trying to even understand why.

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Speaker 1: What was going through your head? What was happening emotionally?

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Speaker 1: Were you angry? Were you terrified? Were you confused? What

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Speaker 1: was the dominant kind of on a know state?

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Speaker 2: I think I was mainly confused. I wasn't terrified of

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Speaker 2: them yet because I didn't know who they were. I

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Speaker 2: obviously had heard of the Revolutionary Guards, but these guys

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Speaker 2: weren't wearing a uniform. There was no badge, no license, nothing.

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Speaker 2: I had no idea who they were. I assumed there

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Speaker 2: was some sort of border police or something at the beginning,

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Speaker 2: and that the whole thing would be cleared up. It

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Speaker 2: was a misunderstanding, and you know, they'd let me go

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Speaker 2: and catch my flight. So I was initially just confused

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Speaker 2: because I didn't speak the language Farsi. Everything was happening

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Speaker 2: in Farsi around me, and I had no idea. I

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Speaker 2: couldn't even understand what they were saying, and only one

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Speaker 2: of them spoke basic English. So even this page they

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Speaker 2: were brandishing the arrest warrant they were showing me, the

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Speaker 2: whole thing was in Farsi. I couldn't read it, and

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Speaker 2: I had no idea what it was. It just looked

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Speaker 2: like a random print out from a computer. So I

291
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Speaker 2: was super confused and just I think in shock, and

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Speaker 2: I didn't let myself believe that I was actually being arrested.

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Speaker 2: I thought, okay, that they mean they're going to ask

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Speaker 2: me a few questions and then the or let me

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Speaker 2: catch my flight.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And when do you think or at what stage

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Speaker 1: did they realize do you think that you weren't some

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Speaker 1: like you said, they weren't going to let you go

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Speaker 1: no matter what because you were valuable to them. But

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Speaker 1: when do you think they realized that you weren't some

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Speaker 1: kind of I don't know, bloody criminal trying to perpetrate

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Speaker 1: some injustice or some crime. I should say, Oh, I think.

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Speaker 2: They knew from the first day or two, you know,

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Speaker 2: it was clear that there was no evidence of any spying.

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Speaker 2: I mean they there was no evidence of me trying

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Speaker 2: to hide anything I was doing either. I had all

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Speaker 2: my research material, everything, my laptop, my phone. I just

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Speaker 2: sort of presented it to the want a platter at

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Speaker 2: the airport when they arrested me. You know what kind

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Speaker 2: of spy would do that? They'd go and hide there,

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Speaker 2: you know, listen, definitely fails by school exactly Like I

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Speaker 2: actually said to them, Look, I'm not stupid. Do you

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Speaker 2: think I'd be that dumb if I was a spy,

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't try and like, I don't know, I upload

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Speaker 2: this stuff to the cloud and just the evidence or

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Speaker 2: send it to some agent somewhere. You know, I've just

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Speaker 2: given it all to you straight up.

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Speaker 1: So how did they How did they treat you? Where

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Speaker 1: did they take you? Did they take you to a

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Speaker 1: room at the airport or transfer you out of the airport?

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Speaker 1: What happened?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was at a room at the airport for

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Speaker 2: about six hours or so, being interrogated there, and then

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Speaker 2: they put me in a blacked out car with a

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Speaker 2: couple of female guards in between me, and drove me

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Speaker 2: to a safe house in North Tehran. I was interrogated

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Speaker 2: overnight there and didn't really sleep until about ten am

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Speaker 2: when they stopped the next day. And then they put

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Speaker 2: me in a hotel, initially a hotel that I was

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Speaker 2: sort of imprisoned inside of and wasn't allowed to leave

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Speaker 2: the room I was in, and it was under their control,

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Speaker 2: you know, they had video cameras and things there. So

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Speaker 2: I was in that hotel for about a week and

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Speaker 2: they would the interrogators would come each day and interrogate

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Speaker 2: me all day in the hotel room. And then after

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Speaker 2: that week they made the decision to throw me in prison,

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Speaker 2: and I went to Evan Prison in North Tehran, which

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Speaker 2: is an infamous prison in Iran for political prisoners. And

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Speaker 2: I was thrown into the two A unit there, which

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Speaker 2: is under the control of the Revolutionary Guards and it's

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Speaker 2: a sort of a max security detention compound inside Evan Prison.

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Speaker 1: And so was there a whole lot of internationals at

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Speaker 1: that prison, No, very few.

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Speaker 2: From time to time, foreigners were arrested and then released.

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Speaker 2: There's a few foreigners, in particular dual nationals so Iranians

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Speaker 2: who have foreign passports in Evan Prison, and some of

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Speaker 2: them have been there for a number of years. There's

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Speaker 2: a handful of Americans. There are a couple of Brits,

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Speaker 2: some Germans, some Austrians, et cetera. But I never had

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Speaker 2: anything to do with them because they had been sentenced

351
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Speaker 2: years before me, and most of them were men. Actually,

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Speaker 2: they were all in the public part of the prison,

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Speaker 2: in the men's ward. A few foreigners came through the

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Speaker 2: women's unit when I was there. There was a Bahrainy

355
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Speaker 2: woman who was actually recruited as a spy and was

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Speaker 2: one of the most evil people I'd ever met actually

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Speaker 2: in my whole experience. There was also a couple of Australians.

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Speaker 2: So I don't know if you remember those two backpackers

359
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Speaker 2: that were arrested for flying a drone in Iran in

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Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, so they were in the same unit as me,

361
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Speaker 2: and I had a couple of encounters with Jolly, the

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Speaker 2: Aussie female who was in the cell down the hall

363
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Speaker 2: from me when I was there. So there were occasionally foreigners,

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Speaker 2: but I was really the only foreign woman that was

365
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Speaker 2: there for any long stretch of time.

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Speaker 1: So you've been picked up at the airport, Obviously somebody

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Speaker 1: back home is waiting at Sydney Airport or wherever. Where

368
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Speaker 1: were you.

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Speaker 2: Flying to Melbourne? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Right, so your family or friends who was waiting at

371
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Speaker 1: the other end? And what happened at the other end.

372
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Speaker 2: My ex husband was waiting at the other end. I

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Speaker 2: was actually allowed to message him and my parents on

374
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Speaker 2: my own WhatsApp in Iran by my guards, and they

375
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Speaker 2: told me to come up with this sort of bogus excuse.

376
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Speaker 2: So they said, message your family and tell them that

377
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Speaker 2: you've spontaneously decided to stay in Iran for a few

378
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Speaker 2: more weeks and you're doing more research and you've got

379
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Speaker 2: some research opportunities, and that's why you're not coming home.

380
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,200
Speaker 2: But they would have known that was BS because I'd

381
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Speaker 2: actually messaged them when I was at the airport before

382
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Speaker 2: checking in, saying, Hey, I'm at the airport, I'm about

383
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Speaker 2: to come home. So they would have smelled a rat

384
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Speaker 2: like right at the beginning, I think, right right?

385
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Speaker 1: And so were any panic buttons pressed back here? Was

386
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Speaker 1: anything activated? Was anyone alerted. Was the government notified or.

387
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:48,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe they notified defat in the first day

388
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Speaker 2: or two that I'd gone missing.

389
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Speaker 1: Essentially, Wow, so and so so, tell us about before

390
00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,080
Speaker 1: you got put in jail, Tell us about so what

391
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Speaker 1: did in the hotels? All day? Every day you're being interrogated,

392
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Speaker 1: What I mean, how much stuff can they ask an

393
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Speaker 1: innocent person who's not committing any crimes. They essentially asking

394
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,000
Speaker 1: you the same things one hundred different ways.

395
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Speaker 2: Often they were yes. Basically they got into my emails,

396
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:22,320
Speaker 2: my mobile phone, my laptop, and you know, I was

397
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Speaker 2: forced to give them the passwords for those, and they

398
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,280
Speaker 2: went trolled through all of my thousands of emails and

399
00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,359
Speaker 2: thousands of contacts and bits and bobs over the years,

400
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,960
Speaker 2: and would pull out every minute thing. You know. Often

401
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,359
Speaker 2: I have no recollection of what they were talking about

402
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,240
Speaker 2: because it had been something that happened four years earlier.

403
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:42,920
Speaker 2: Or I remember even a couple of people who were

404
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,960
Speaker 2: c seed on an email that I received years earlier

405
00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,320
Speaker 2: were suddenly brought up as being people I knew were

406
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,880
Speaker 2: acquaintances of mine of interest, and they'd interrogate me about

407
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:54,680
Speaker 2: these people, and I had no idea even who they

408
00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,439
Speaker 2: were because it was just a CC on an email,

409
00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:59,880
Speaker 2: you know, so they went sort of with a fine

410
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:05,200
Speaker 2: who is going through everything? Photographs I'd had of people? Also,

411
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,399
Speaker 2: what was I doing in Iran? Where was I going?

412
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,480
Speaker 2: Who was I talking to when I was in Iran? Too?

413
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,679
Speaker 2: They were very interested in the university sector in Australia

414
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,840
Speaker 2: in all my contacts in various universities. They were interested

415
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,600
Speaker 2: in UK universities too, and if I knew this person

416
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:24,080
Speaker 2: or that person, this academic, that academic. So yeah, it

417
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:28,400
Speaker 2: often seemed kind of pointless in arbitrary, but also yes,

418
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,520
Speaker 2: they would ask the same questions again and again in

419
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,840
Speaker 2: different ways and on different days to see if my

420
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,639
Speaker 2: answers changed as well to kind of trip me up

421
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:36,440
Speaker 2: there as well.

422
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,520
Speaker 1: Did you go you know I'm smarter than you? Did

423
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 1: you do you know? I know what you're doing?

424
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:46,480
Speaker 2: Like I knew they were.

425
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Speaker 1: Did you get pissed, Carl? When did the anger come

426
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:51,399
Speaker 1: or didn't it? Oh?

427
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was very angry at many many occasions. You know.

428
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,920
Speaker 2: I first got properly angry and upset when I was

429
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,320
Speaker 2: thrown in prison because I didn't even know I was

430
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,119
Speaker 2: going to be thrown in prison They're constantly lying to

431
00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,639
Speaker 2: you know, they were constantly telling me just to answer

432
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 2: all our questions, and we're going to put you on

433
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,159
Speaker 2: a plane back to Australia on the weekend, you know.

434
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,959
Speaker 2: So they were lying to me right up until the end.

435
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,000
Speaker 2: And when I figured out that I was being admitted

436
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,320
Speaker 2: into prison, I mean I had a meltdown. I was

437
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 2: not just angry, but upset, scared, anxious, and I was

438
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 2: thrown in solitary confinement, which was really traumatic and you know, confronting.

439
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,000
Speaker 2: And also I had no idea what was happening because

440
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,119
Speaker 2: again I didn't speak the language, so nobody explained to

441
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,280
Speaker 2: me even where I was. I didn't even know I

442
00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:41,120
Speaker 2: was in Evan prison. I didn't know that the solitary

443
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 2: confinement cell was be where I would have to live

444
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,880
Speaker 2: for the next month. I didn't know why I was there.

445
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 2: I knew nothing, and I couldn't even communicate with my

446
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 2: jailers because the prison guards didn't speak English. So it

447
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 2: was just I was a all of rage and anxiety,

448
00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 2: and yeah, it was horrific.

449
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,760
Speaker 1: How did you survive that? How do you be in

450
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,920
Speaker 1: another country in a box, locked away, can't talk to

451
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 1: people you love? They can't talk to you being like literally,

452
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,879
Speaker 1: you know, incarcerated for something you didn't do. It's not

453
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 1: like you did a bad thing and now you're suffering,

454
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:21,440
Speaker 1: and oh fuck, I did a bad thing. I feel

455
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,440
Speaker 1: I realized, you know, this is like you didn't do

456
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,440
Speaker 1: anything and you're being punished. How did you manage, like

457
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,920
Speaker 1: tell us about the emotional and the psychological management that

458
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 1: had to happen.

459
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 2: I didn't at all cope at the beginning. I was obviously,

460
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:46,920
Speaker 2: you know, completely frantic and traumatized by solitary confinement. I

461
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,400
Speaker 2: think it took me about two weeks to properly get

462
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 2: a lid on my emotional response and my terror to

463
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 2: being in solitary because it's psychological torture and they're deliberately

464
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,120
Speaker 2: putting you in there to break psychologically, and you do break,

465
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 2: and at the beginning, your brain doesn't know how to

466
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:08,239
Speaker 2: deal with it, because you've gone from being overstimulated now

467
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 2: and you know, today's lifestyle, to having zero stimulation whatsoever,

468
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 2: zero mental stimulation, and your brain just snaps. I mean,

469
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 2: you literally bounce off the walls. I would actually hear

470
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,680
Speaker 2: other people in solitary throwing themselves against the walls. Throwing

471
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 2: themselves against the doors and screaming because they just couldn't

472
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 2: take the hours and hours and hours of isolation with

473
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 2: no stimulus whatsoever. You know, you become your own torturer, really,

474
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,880
Speaker 2: and I went through that phase, but luckily it ended

475
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 2: for me, and I say it ends for probably eighty

476
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 2: percent of the people because I spoke to many many

477
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 2: other prisoners who've been in solitary too, and in this

478
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:51,680
Speaker 2: extreme solitary situation, and you know, the human brain finds

479
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 2: a way to adapt and survive for most people, but

480
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 2: I would say about twenty percent or ten percent never

481
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 2: do and are just flipping out out permanently. And in

482
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,880
Speaker 2: that case, often they end up being hospitalized. And I've

483
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 2: heard it as well, but luckily it didn't happen to me.

484
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 2: My brain sort of slowed itself down. I found ways

485
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 2: of just occupying my mind for hours and hours, and

486
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 2: it would sort of be best to sleep for as

487
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 2: long as possible and inhabit like my memories as much

488
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,199
Speaker 2: as possible, lie on the ground with a blanket over

489
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 2: my head and just close my eyes and think through

490
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 2: childhood memories and just as best as possible not notice

491
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 2: the passage of time. And stop caring about time, and

492
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 2: stop caring about yesterday and tomorrow and just focus on

493
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 2: the prison routine in the here and now. That's what

494
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 2: sort of got me through in the end.

495
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 1: Do you think that that's incredible? Do you think that

496
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 1: because you're an academic and and part of that is

497
00:25:54,680 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 1: curiosity and learning and being open minded, and like, did

498
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 1: you get to a point where you started to think, like,

499
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 1: was there a metacognitive breakthrough where you're aware of how

500
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 1: you're thinking and what's happening in your mind? Did you

501
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 1: find any space between the chaos and you? And did

502
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 1: that help?

503
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 2: There were many times when I did, but not really

504
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 2: when I was in that extreme solitary confinement situation, I

505
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 2: was only there for one month. In that it was

506
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 2: a tiny box two and a half by two and

507
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 2: a half meters, no window, no natural light, lights on

508
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:37,640
Speaker 2: twenty four seven, no furniture, no pillow, no sheets, no anything.

509
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 2: I couldn't even bring in food into the room. I

510
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 2: couldn't bring my own toothbrush, nothing, and I was only

511
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 2: allowed to shower once every three days. It was extreme deprobation.

512
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,400
Speaker 2: And you know, you'd be in there for twenty three

513
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 2: hours a day on your own and that I didn't

514
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 2: find any cognitive peace per se. It was more about

515
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 2: toll rating what was happening to me and stopping it

516
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 2: from breaking me down. Entirely, I think it was you

517
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,640
Speaker 2: were just in extreme survival mode. I don't think any

518
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 2: human would ever become fully comfortable or be able to

519
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 2: fully detach from their fear and negative emotions in such

520
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 2: a place. You know, maybe the Dalai Lama or somebody,

521
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 2: but certainly not me. But when I was look I

522
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 2: spent twelve months in solitary all up, but not in

523
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 2: an extreme solitary like that cell. When I was alone.

524
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 2: In other cells, you know, which had toilets attached, terrible

525
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 2: filthy squad of toilets, but still you could take yourself

526
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 2: to the toilet when you wanted. And a small television

527
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 2: which would There were only four channels, and they were

528
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 2: all Iranian soap operas. Again I didn't understand the language,

529
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 2: but at least kind of watching that would often pass

530
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 2: the time, even though I had no idea what was

531
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 2: going on, and that after a while, after a few months,

532
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 2: I got some books, I got some writing materials, and

533
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,360
Speaker 2: they eased up on me a bit. And that's when

534
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 2: I started to use my academic curiosity and intellect to

535
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 2: examine critically what was happening to me and how I

536
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 2: was responding to it, and try and find ways and

537
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 2: methods of surviving in a more healthy fashion. But in

538
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 2: that first one month that I spent in that extreme

539
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 2: solitary box, no way. I was just just trying to survive.

540
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 2: That was my only instinct.

541
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 1: Really, And the one hour a day that you weren't

542
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: in that box, where were you and what was happening?

543
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 2: So they took us for half an hour in the

544
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 2: morning and half an hour in the evening to an

545
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,719
Speaker 2: area called Tabajori, which was like a balcony about ten

546
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 2: meters in length with fully screened off by corrugated iron,

547
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 2: attached to the women's unit, and we were just I

548
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 2: would be allowed to pace backwards and forwards for half

549
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 2: an hour in the outside fresh air there. Yeah, And.

550
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: How many other people were in this space when you

551
00:28:58,680 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 1: were there?

552
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 2: Oh? Nobody, because when you're in solitary you can't see anybody,

553
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 2: that's the point. So you're alone there as well.

554
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: And could you see the sky?

555
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 2: Yes? The sky was really the only free space I

556
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 2: could see. And you know, it's one reason why I

557
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 2: called the book the un Caged Sky, because actually I

558
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 2: was in a few different units with a few different

559
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 2: harbory spaces, and some of them actually had caged the sky,

560
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 2: like they had literally built metal bars above your head,

561
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 2: so that three hundred and sixty degrees of the space

562
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 2: had been caged in. And that was the worst because

563
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 2: you could look you had to look up through bars

564
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 2: if you wanted to watch the birds or the clouds

565
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 2: or look at the sun. But this particular one at

566
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 2: the beginning didn't have a cage, and you know, I

567
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 2: would just spend all my time looking up, following the

568
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 2: various birds in the trees, and you know, just looking

569
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 2: at the trees in the far off distance, and they

570
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 2: would lose their leaves in the autumn and rig grow

571
00:29:57,880 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 2: them in the spring, and so I'd be watching for

572
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 2: buds for you know, all that tree's got more leaves today,

573
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 2: and you know, observing the natural world, you know, was

574
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 2: how I liked to spend those half hour breaks outside.

575
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: And after the initial months, where did you go from there?

576
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 2: I went into a slightly biggest cell about three and

577
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 2: a half meters by one and a half and yet

578
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 2: it had that TV and that squatter toilet by yourself

579
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 2: help by myself.

580
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: Yes, and what were how how long were you in

581
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: there every day? And was there were you allowed in

582
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: gen pop or anything or.

583
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 2: Oh, exactly the same, So twenty three hours a day

584
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 2: in the cell, half an hour in the morning, half

585
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 2: an hour in the evening outside. But I should note

586
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 2: I was taken for interrogation still, So after the first

587
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 2: few days of kind of breaking me alone in that

588
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 2: extreme solitary, they started to take me for a few

589
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 2: hours a day for interrogation. And even when I moved

590
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 2: to that slightly larger cell with the squatter toilet attached,

591
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 2: I was still at times being taken for interrogation, but

592
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 2: much less frequently, maybe once a week or so. And

593
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,959
Speaker 2: I used to like want to be interrogated even though

594
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 2: they were really horrible to me, because it was somebody

595
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 2: to talk to and I wasn't alone.

596
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: Yes, and you could interact and connect in a weird way.

597
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's probably less painful than just sitting in a.

598
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 2: Box, definitely, Yeah, And they know it. They know that

599
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 2: you want to keep it going as long as possible

600
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 2: because you fear being left alone in that box afterwards,

601
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 2: And they sort of take advantage of that psychology as well. Yeah,

602
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 2: they know exactly what they're doing.

603
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 1: Wow, such evil people in the world. And so at

604
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: what stage in your eight hundred and how it was,

605
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: I don't in four days. At what stage did you

606
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: interact with other inmates where you could eat with others

607
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: and talk with others or did that not happen or

608
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 1: that it happened.

609
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 2: Oh, it happened. So my first interactions were illicit communications,

610
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 2: you know, that were banned, you know, not allowed. But

611
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 2: when I was in that extreme solitary cell after about

612
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 2: two weeks, a couple of other prisoners across the hall

613
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 2: from me had heard me. They knew I was there,

614
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 2: they knew I was a foreigner. I didn't speak Facy,

615
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 2: they'd spoke English because they were very educated, and they'd

616
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 2: heard me constantly struggling trying to communicate in English with

617
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 2: these prison guards, heard me crying, heard me upset, and

618
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 2: they reached out to me, and they left some dried

619
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 2: fruits and nuts in a bag inside a pot plant

620
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 2: that was in the outdoor exercise area, and a small

621
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 2: note for me that they'd written on a square of

622
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 2: toilet paper, basically saying you're not alone, you know. Wow. Yeah,

623
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 2: And they'd written they'd scratched this stay strong, You're not alone.

624
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 2: They scratched this into the wall with a rock of

625
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 2: the outdoor exercise area too, and you know, it's it's

626
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 2: very dangerous. The guards are aware that they do these things,

627
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 2: and they punish them and they block up the wall again.

628
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 2: And it was very lucky that I found this gift

629
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 2: and this note that they'd left for me, and I

630
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 2: was able to put it in my underwear and take

631
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 2: it back to my cell and read it and eat

632
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 2: the fruits and nuts, and so we established a kind

633
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 2: of a note passing network. And I managed to steal

634
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 2: a pen at one point, and when I was in

635
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 2: the second cell with the bathroom, I hid my stolen

636
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 2: pen in the plumbing of the toilet, which because they

637
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 2: would search your cell every day, but they never went

638
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 2: into the plumbing because the toilet was pretty filthy. I

639
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 2: knew the guards wouldn't want to go near it. So

640
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 2: I managed to do that and correspond in English with

641
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 2: the neighboring cell. And later on we discovered we could

642
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 2: speak through in a conditioning vent in the middle of

643
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 2: the night, when the guards had retired to their guard's

644
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 2: room and I managed to sort of snatch ten minutes

645
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 2: every three days on a particular guard shift with my

646
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 2: neighbors English again, and these are the people who gave me,

647
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 2: you know, all the information I had about where I was,

648
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 2: who had arrested me, what would happen to me, that

649
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 2: I would be put on trial, that I would probably

650
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 2: be found guilty and then swapped with Australia, you know,

651
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 2: in a prisoner swap or something, that this was a

652
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 2: pattern of behavior that Iran regularly engaged in. And also

653
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 2: how I should handle the interrogations, what I should or

654
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 2: shouldn't do. You know, they gave me so much useful information,

655
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 2: and you know, as a foreigner with no context or

656
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 2: knowledge of Iran, really, you know, it saved my life

657
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 2: in a way, because you know, I might have made

658
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 2: a false confession, I might have done anything, and these

659
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,479
Speaker 2: guys really kept me on the right track and also

660
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,800
Speaker 2: crucially made me understand I'm not alone and I'm not

661
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 2: going through this alone, and there are others too, and

662
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 2: that they care about me and care about what happens

663
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 2: to me, and that I have friends. So that meant

664
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:52,279
Speaker 2: the world to me.

665
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 1: Wow, all that goodness and all that evil in one place.

666
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 1: Did you get to meet them face to face? Kyli?

667
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 2: Yes, I met well the first two who reached out

668
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 2: to me. One of them, Horda. She was bailed a

669
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 2: few months later, so I never met her face to face.

670
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 2: But nil Alfa, who was the second inmate in that cell,

671
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 2: she became my roommate about ten months later, along with

672
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 2: her colleague Cepidere. And these two women became my sisters.

673
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 2: You know. I shared a cell with them for ten

674
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 2: or eleven months, and everything we did together, we knew

675
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 2: each other intimately, and they taught me so much, and

676
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 2: they became as close to me, if not closer than

677
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 2: an actual birth sister. So these women were just remarkable.

678
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 2: I had a number of other cell mates before them.

679
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 2: Some were evil, horrible people, and others were lovely and friendly.

680
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 2: And it really is, you know, the solidarity that develops

681
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 2: between fellow prisoners who are all but being put through

682
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,320
Speaker 2: hell and going through a horrific experience. It just is

683
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 2: It means everything to you. It's the difference between becoming

684
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 2: a bus case and finding a way to survive. And

685
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,800
Speaker 2: I really credit that human connection and that support and

686
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:11,800
Speaker 2: that sisterhood with getting me through really, isn't it?

687
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: Isn't it like when you break everything down and all

688
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 1: the bullshit in society and all the stuff we obsess

689
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 1: about and focus on, and all the things we want

690
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 1: and all the stuff that we think that we need,

691
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 1: and all the problems that we think that we have.

692
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,320
Speaker 1: But when you get to the lowest, lowest, lowest common

693
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,840
Speaker 1: denominator of a human in a box with no contact,

694
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 1: with no support, with no kindness, with no love, with

695
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,720
Speaker 1: no connection with at times I would think no hope

696
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: or seeming like no hope, just a bit of love?

697
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 1: What an incredible like somebody could offer you ten kilos

698
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 1: of gold or a hug, you know, or just like

699
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: fuck your gold, just talk to me, just listen to me,

700
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 1: just be kind to me. Did that must have been

701
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 1: like the greatest gift?

702
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 2: Honestly it was. I mean, the first time someone actually

703
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 2: hugged me probably was several months. I hadn't been touched

704
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 2: by another human being for several months, and just that

705
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 2: basic expression of care of compassion meant the world to me.

706
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 2: It was an incredible hug. And yeah, I mean we

707
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 2: are group animals, human beings. We need others and this

708
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 2: is why solitary confinement is torture because we're not meant

709
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 2: to be alone for prolonged periods of time. You know, socially,

710
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 2: we need others around us in order to survive. And

711
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 2: it's that's why it's so damaging solitary confinement. And we

712
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 2: need other people to care about us, and we need

713
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,359
Speaker 2: that interaction and that support and that friendship. I think

714
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:55,320
Speaker 2: it's vital.

715
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 1: Tell me about We'll give me a snap shot of

716
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 1: the ten months that you spent in that room with

717
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:03,320
Speaker 1: your sisters.

718
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 2: Actually, we had a lot of fun. We got up

719
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 2: to a lot of mischief. We did a lot of naughty,

720
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 2: bad things.

721
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 1: Thanks God, what naughty things did you do?

722
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,479
Speaker 2: Oh? So well. We went on several hunger strikes together

723
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 2: making demands, and we organized a joint hunger strack with

724
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 2: the men's unit because my friend Sipitera, her husband was

725
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 2: in the men's unit Uman he was his name, and

726
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 2: we were able to pass a note to him during

727
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,879
Speaker 2: a family meeting that she had with him and got

728
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 2: some recruited some of the men who were downstairs to

729
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 2: join us, and we really freaked out the prison authorities

730
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 2: by having about nine or ten person hunger strike all

731
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 2: starting on the one day when none of us was

732
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 2: supposed to be in contact with one another. So we

733
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 2: did stuff like that, But we also managed to disrupt

734
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 2: other prisoners interrogations by yelling and screaming outside their windows

735
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 2: when they were happening. We sipeter broke into one of

736
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 2: the extreme solitary cells and managed to go in when

737
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,239
Speaker 2: one of these prisoners was in there and give her

738
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 2: a hug and sit on the floor with her for

739
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 2: a couple of minutes before being extracted again. We would

740
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 2: pass food and things to other prisoners. We would bribe

741
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 2: some prison guards, sometimes with food of our own, to

742
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 2: help to get them to turn a blind eye to

743
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 2: us giving food items to other prisoners, this kind of thing.

744
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 2: You know, we did a lot of resistance, and we

745
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 2: occupied certain areas and refused to move, sat down on

746
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 2: the ground, refused to leave until we got dragged away.

747
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 2: And you know, we started resisting essentially and supported one

748
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 2: another in these schemes and these ideas as well.

749
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: Amazing, amazing, And so how did how did you get out?

750
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 2: Like?

751
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 1: What transpired? What was the situation around that? Oh?

752
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,840
Speaker 2: Gosh, So I was ultimately on trial and convicted and

753
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 2: given a ten year prison sentence for espionage.

754
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 1: I so fucking stupid anyway, I know.

755
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,879
Speaker 2: I know it would have been funny if it wasn't

756
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 2: so upsetting, but yeah, So I spent then about seven

757
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 2: months in solitary following that conviction, and then I was

758
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 2: transferred to a public prison where I was living amongst

759
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 2: you know, everyday criminals and other women, which was actually great.

760
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 2: I much preferred being there. And at that time the

761
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 2: Australian government had undertaken negotiations with directly with the Revolutionary Guard,

762
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 2: course so not with the Uranian government, but with the

763
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:42,800
Speaker 2: group that had arrested me, And after a few false

764
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 2: starts and things falling through, they managed to get a

765
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 2: prisoner swap deal in place involving three convicted terrorists in

766
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 2: Thailand who were also Revolutionary Guard members, and they were

767
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 2: exchanged for me by the Australian government.

768
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,240
Speaker 1: When did you first have a conversation with an official

769
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 1: from Australia.

770
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:09,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, I had an embassy visit at about the four

771
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 2: month mark. The ambassador came into the prison and I

772
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 2: had a sort of a twenty minute visit with him,

773
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 2: but I wasn't allowed to discuss anything, certainly not my case.

774
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 2: So it was sort of a health check or a

775
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 2: proof of life or something. And I remember he was

776
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 2: telling me some news from Australia, this kind of thing,

777
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,360
Speaker 2: telling me my family loved me and they cared about me,

778
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 2: and etc. But we weren't really allowed to discuss any

779
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 2: of the particulars of what was happening to me or

780
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 2: my case. But I got banned from consular visits after

781
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 2: a few months because of my resistance, so also got

782
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 2: banned from family phone calls as a punishment. So I

783
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 2: was cut off from the Australian authorities for long stretches

784
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 2: of time and didn't have any news or any information whatsoever.

785
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 1: So what was what was the date of your liberation?

786
00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 1: November twenty What date was it?

787
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 2: Twenty fifth of November?

788
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 1: Tell us about that day.

789
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 2: I had been visited by the Ambassador Lindel Sachs forty

790
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 2: eight hours earlier in the prison, and she had told

791
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 2: me we're going to get you out in two days.

792
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 2: But I didn't allow myself to believe it because it

793
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 2: had been like this a few times before. I'd been

794
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 2: told something's happening, I'm going to get out and it

795
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 2: never did, never happen, So I didn't want to give

796
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 2: myself false hope, but I knew that that was the day,

797
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 2: and I'd been taken out of the prison a day

798
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:34,840
Speaker 2: earlier as well, to the headquarters of the REV Guards

799
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 2: in downtown Tehran. I'd met the envoy that Australia had

800
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 2: sent to negotiate my release. He was present there in

801
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 2: those headquarters, so I understood that something very serious was

802
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,320
Speaker 2: afoot and it was likely or possible I could be released.

803
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 2: But on the day I was supposed to leave at

804
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 2: nine am, and I was still there at midday and

805
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,959
Speaker 2: myself so clearly something was going wrong, and I thought,

806
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 2: oh God, here we go. It's going to fall through again.

807
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,879
Speaker 2: But eventually, eventually I was taken out of my cell.

808
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 2: I was handcuffed, blindfolded, putting a car, and first forced

809
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 2: to film a propaganda interview. By that point, I had

810
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 2: taught myself Farsi, so I had to speak in Farsi

811
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,919
Speaker 2: to the camera in front of the prison gates, which

812
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 2: was all ridiculous, and you know, I kind of did

813
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 2: my best to sabotage the interview, but they sort of

814
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:25,800
Speaker 2: forced me to do that before they would let me go.

815
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 2: And then they dropped me at the Ambassador's residence in Tehran,

816
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 2: and from there me, the ambassador, and the envoy got

817
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 2: into a car and we drove to the airport and

818
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 2: I was put on I guess like a private plane

819
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 2: in the rev Guards wing of Mehrabad Airport a few

820
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 2: hours later and flown from the country.

821
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: Where did you fly to?

822
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:53,800
Speaker 2: We actually landed in Doha in Qatar, first stayed overnight

823
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 2: there in the airport, and then the next day continued

824
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:57,280
Speaker 2: on to Australia.

825
00:43:57,680 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: What was that like getting on that plane flying out

826
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 1: first time? When you're like clear, you're off the runway,

827
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 1: you're three minutes in the air.

828
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 2: Honestly, I was still on tenterhooks because I just until

829
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:13,800
Speaker 2: I left Iranian airspace, I just could not fully allow

830
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:17,399
Speaker 2: myself to believe that I was free. And the Red

831
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 2: Guards had actually said to me a couple of times, Oh,

832
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 2: we can let you get on a plane, but we

833
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:23,320
Speaker 2: can force it to turn around in the air and

834
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 2: force you to land still, and if we want to

835
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 2: bring you back, we will. And you know, I had

836
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 2: all those thoughts in my head and was still kind

837
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 2: of highly strong and stressed until I'd received word that

838
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 2: we'd crossed out of Iranian airspace and then I could

839
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:40,439
Speaker 2: properly breathe again and understand, Yeah, it's really happened. You're free.

840
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah when you got back to Australia, and maybe

841
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 1: you still don't feel normal, but I mean, it wasn't

842
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:50,800
Speaker 1: that long ago. Like it's not like it was twelve

843
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 1: years ago. I mean it's not even two years yet. Yeah,

844
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 1: you got back. It's less than like, what is it now,

845
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 1: it's about twenty two months or something like that. How

846
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:05,839
Speaker 1: long before you kind of felt safe ish, normal ish

847
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 1: and I don't know, less anxious or is it still

848
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 1: a work?

849
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 2: It's definitely still a journey. I'm on. I don't think

850
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:18,759
Speaker 2: I've got to the end of it yet. I was

851
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 2: doing really well until the Melbourne lockdowns in twenty twenty one,

852
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 2: because that just sort of felt like a curtailment of

853
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 2: my freedom again. You know, I wanted to just be

854
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 2: free to do what I wanted, and you know, a

855
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:32,719
Speaker 2: lot of my family live in New South Wales. I

856
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 2: wanted to be able to see my family cross the border,

857
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:38,719
Speaker 2: you know, drive to see friends more than five kilometers away,

858
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 2: and just be out and about enjoying my freedom. And

859
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 2: that kind of knocked me around a bit those lockdowns,

860
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:47,800
Speaker 2: but yeah, I mean I think it took me some

861
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 2: months to feel properly safe. I was very hyper vigilant

862
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 2: and aware of security cameras in particular, but also anyone

863
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:00,920
Speaker 2: walking past or looking suspicious or might be hanging around

864
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 2: a bit too much or you know. I was very

865
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 2: uber vigilant and looking out for threats I guess, and

866
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 2: not fully settled or feeling safe. And in a way,

867
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 2: I still have that tendency a little bit, but it's

868
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 2: definitely faded over time.

869
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,239
Speaker 1: Do you have PTSD? Do you think?

870
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 2: No? I don't.

871
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:30,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, great, And so what do you do to what

872
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 1: do you do for your mental health? I mean we

873
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,279
Speaker 1: all have mental health challenges pretty much everyone, but anxiety

874
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 1: or overthinking or depression or that rumination do you how

875
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 1: do you manage that day to day?

876
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:45,399
Speaker 2: Yeah?

877
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 1: I have some of that.

878
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 2: For me, the most effective way of managing that is

879
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 2: just to be running in nature. I live in a

880
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,320
Speaker 2: very beautiful part of Victoria in the Dandenong Ranges and

881
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 2: I have a beautiful nature reserved near my house and

882
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 2: every day, especially during lockdown, I would run. I would

883
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 2: see kangaroos every day, I would see lots of beautiful

884
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 2: parrots and birds, and I would just be alone in

885
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 2: the green amidst the trees, running and I found that

886
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 2: really really soothing for my mental health, and it just

887
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 2: allowed me to think, allowed me time to as I

888
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 2: was running, to process things and just think, and alone

889
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:25,880
Speaker 2: time me time to just go through thoughts that I

890
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 2: had in my head and make sense of them. So honestly,

891
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 2: I think that being out in nature and having that, like, yeah,

892
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 2: that time in nature to run and exercise each day

893
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 2: was what got me.

894
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 1: Through, to be honest, think about this. Think about you

895
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 1: in a box, in a concrete box with no windows,

896
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 1: with no stimulation, with no pillow, no blanket or no sheets,

897
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 1: no toilet, in the worst environment, under the worst conditions,

898
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 1: and then in the days running with the kangaroos. I mean,

899
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 1: it's the opposite end of the scale, right, Yeah.

900
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 2: And I'd been craving that, I think, you know, I'd

901
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 2: been craving trees. I've been craving green because when you're

902
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 2: in prison, especially in a big urban city. You know,

903
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:20,320
Speaker 2: there's so much smog in Tehran that often you wouldn't

904
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 2: even see blue sky because there'd be so much epollution. Yeah,

905
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:28,320
Speaker 2: you know, I wanted to be in a forest or

906
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:31,240
Speaker 2: at a beach, or I wanted to be outside somewhere

907
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 2: and not just be caged in concrete and iron bars

908
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 2: and you know, rais of wire and this kind of

909
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 2: thing all the time. So being able to just drink

910
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 2: in that green and have that nature around me just, yeah,

911
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 2: it meant the world to me, really helped with my recovery.

912
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 1: Is there was there a spiritual kind of component to

913
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: your existence, Kyli?

914
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:59,919
Speaker 2: Yes, I do think in a way you draw close

915
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 2: to God when you go through such an experience. I

916
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 2: mean I saw both. Most prisoners think about religion obviously

917
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 2: when they're going through some sort of horrific ordeal. The

918
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 2: ones who came in religious often either they would cling

919
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 2: to the religion and pray five times a day and

920
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 2: you know, like we're talking about Muslims here, so you

921
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 2: know they have set prayers five times a day and

922
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 2: do all the extra prayers and extra you know, fasting

923
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:33,279
Speaker 2: on Ramadan and everything, or they would become completely disillusioned

924
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 2: with it and say, God, where are you? How did

925
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:38,799
Speaker 2: you let this happen to me? And you know, let

926
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 2: it slide. So as a sort of a secular person.

927
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 2: I definitely started praying more when I was in there

928
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 2: than I ever would have outside.

929
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 1: How are you if you crystal bullet or we step

930
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:56,279
Speaker 1: into an alternate reality and we go, let's say that

931
00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:59,959
Speaker 1: never happened. How do you think you're a different person?

932
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:03,839
Speaker 1: And too, you know, the Kylie that would have been

933
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:09,279
Speaker 1: on that alternate path of your life minus this eight

934
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 1: one hundred and four days of you know, misery.

935
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 2: It's hard to say. I don't think that the fundamentals

936
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,239
Speaker 2: of who I am as a person have changed that dramatically.

937
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:24,239
Speaker 2: I think I've learned more about myself and who I

938
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 2: am as a result of this trial. It's a trial

939
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 2: that I had to go through in my life, and

940
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 2: there have been blessings that have come out of that too.

941
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:34,840
Speaker 2: You know, I've learnt so much about myself and about

942
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,960
Speaker 2: human nature and about others and about the people around

943
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 2: me as well. I mean, who has your back and

944
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 2: who doesn't. When you go through such a such a

945
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 2: traumatic experience, it tells you a lot. So I actually,

946
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 2: you know, try and look on the bright side and

947
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:50,880
Speaker 2: see it as a positive thing. And I don't know

948
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 2: if I've dramatically changed as a person. I think I'm

949
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 2: more confident and less tolerant of people's bs, less some

950
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 2: caring about what people think of me, more strident in

951
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:06,359
Speaker 2: expressing my opinions. But as a human being, I think

952
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:07,479
Speaker 2: I'm essentially the same.

953
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, did you have to do? You have to work

954
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:20,080
Speaker 1: at not being bitter, twisted, angry, residentful, mad, violent at

955
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 1: the people who did all this bullshit to you.

956
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 2: Oh? Definitely, And I'd say I probably am all of

957
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:29,759
Speaker 2: those things that you just said. It's more about trying

958
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,840
Speaker 2: to find a way, a positive direction to push it

959
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:36,800
Speaker 2: in rather than just lashing out at everyone around me

960
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 2: and flailing about, screaming at the unfairness of it all.

961
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 2: I'm trying to channel because i do have a lot

962
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 2: of rage inside me. I'm very angry about what happened

963
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 2: to me and certain individuals, organizations, and actors that were

964
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:55,240
Speaker 2: involved in it. And I'm trying to channel that anger

965
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 2: and rage in a positive direction by trying to support

966
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:02,319
Speaker 2: the family members of others were unjustly held abroad, by

967
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:05,880
Speaker 2: trying to support the Uranian human rights movement. I'm in

968
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:07,880
Speaker 2: touch with a lot of the families and even some

969
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 2: of my former prisoners themselves who have been let out

970
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:14,879
Speaker 2: trying to support them, and raising my voice and drawing

971
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:18,040
Speaker 2: attention to what Iran is doing and the phenomenon of

972
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 2: arbitrary detention or hostage diplomacy as well. All these things

973
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:24,360
Speaker 2: are positive ways I can try and channel that anger,

974
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:28,320
Speaker 2: but I certainly do struggle sometimes with the resentment and

975
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:31,399
Speaker 2: the just heare the rage at it all?

976
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:34,840
Speaker 1: For sure? How dare you be human?

977
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:35,960
Speaker 2: And so?

978
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 1: How dare you?

979
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:38,320
Speaker 2: So?

980
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,360
Speaker 1: Is this your mission? For now? Your mission is to

981
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,360
Speaker 1: bring light to this stuff and to speak to groups

982
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 1: and to spread that message and I guess shine a

983
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:51,320
Speaker 1: light on all of this bad stuff that's happening.

984
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:54,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, i'd say so. I don't know if I have

985
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 2: a specific mission, but I certainly feel like this is

986
00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:59,439
Speaker 2: something that I should be doing. A lot of people

987
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 2: have reached out to me, especially on the back of

988
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 2: the book. We have several high profile Australians who are

989
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 2: hostages abroad in foreign prisons in places like Chinami and

990
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:14,800
Speaker 2: mah Iraq, And there are also a lot of foreigners

991
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 2: who are in Iran, and a lot of them have

992
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 2: reached out to me, to their families, you know, in

993
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 2: the UK and the US, in Germany and Austria and France, Belgium.

994
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:27,760
Speaker 2: You know, there's a lot and there's a strange community

995
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:30,840
Speaker 2: of us too, a strange community of return to hostages

996
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:34,719
Speaker 2: and very active campaigning families of current hostages, and we

997
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 2: all know each other and swap ideas and talk and

998
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 2: that's really nice as well.

999
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 1: You know, I guess having that albeit not a not

1000
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 1: something anyone wants to have in common, but you have

1001
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 1: that in common, and so there's a I guess there's

1002
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 1: a connection that you can have with people who have

1003
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:53,920
Speaker 1: got family members in that situation or who have been

1004
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 1: in that situation themselves that you can't have with others.

1005
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 2: Exactly. No one else understands.

1006
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't.

1007
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:05,040
Speaker 2: No one else can properly get what we went through

1008
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:08,160
Speaker 2: in that place unless they've been through it. To no

1009
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:11,440
Speaker 2: amount of me trying to explain or describe will ever

1010
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 2: really convey that to someone. But the others who were

1011
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 2: there with me, or people who've been through this prison

1012
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:21,440
Speaker 2: system before me, they get it, they understand, and so

1013
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:23,800
Speaker 2: it's actually really valuable to be able to talk with

1014
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 2: them as well in terms of healing and processing things.

1015
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:29,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the best therapy for you, I would think,

1016
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:32,800
Speaker 1: what about your sisters that you spent your cheeky rubble

1017
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:36,320
Speaker 1: trouble making sisters that you spent ten months with. Do

1018
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:37,839
Speaker 1: you ever talk to them?

1019
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 2: I have spoken to them, yes, but they are still

1020
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:45,759
Speaker 2: in prison, so wow. A couple of the times they've

1021
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:48,680
Speaker 2: been out because they got COVID or for some medical reason.

1022
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 2: But unfortunately, more than five years after they arrest Sipita

1023
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:55,279
Speaker 2: and Nilufar and Sipiter's husband to mine and they're in

1024
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:58,040
Speaker 2: a group of eight, they're all still in prison, and

1025
00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:01,800
Speaker 2: they're innocent, and you know, they're just some of the

1026
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:05,360
Speaker 2: many thousands of innocent people that are Ryan's imprisoned because

1027
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:10,400
Speaker 2: of political reasons or because of unfounded espionage allegations or whatever.

1028
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 2: So it's heartbreaking to me, really, and I think of

1029
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 2: them often.

1030
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:18,239
Speaker 1: It is heartbreaking. So the name of your book is

1031
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 1: The Uncaged Sky, My eight hundred and four Days in

1032
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:25,760
Speaker 1: an around in prison in all good bookstores and crap

1033
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 1: ones and online. Is there an audio version, Kylie?

1034
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 2: There is? Yes, I read it myself.

1035
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:36,839
Speaker 1: In fact, yeah, I like it when authors do their

1036
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:39,040
Speaker 1: own books because I kind of feel like I get

1037
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:43,439
Speaker 1: to know the author. Thank you so much for having

1038
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:45,799
Speaker 1: to chat with us. I could go on for another hour,

1039
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:48,080
Speaker 1: because there are so many other things I would like

1040
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:51,360
Speaker 1: to quiz you on in terms of the psychology and

1041
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:55,800
Speaker 1: sociology of getting through this and self managing and navigating

1042
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:59,560
Speaker 1: and moving forwards, but I don't want to take up

1043
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 1: too much your time. How do people find you or

1044
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 1: connect with you, or follow you or pay you an

1045
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,000
Speaker 1: obscene amounts? Come and talk to their group.

1046
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:13,880
Speaker 2: You can contact me on Twitter or Instagram. It's Twitter

1047
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:17,480
Speaker 2: is at k Moore Gilbert. Instagram is Kylie Moore Gilbert.

1048
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:22,440
Speaker 2: I have a publicly available email address on my Twitter account,

1049
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:24,879
Speaker 2: Kylie MG atprotonmail dot com.

1050
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:29,440
Speaker 1: Awesome, well we will. We will promote your book bya

1051
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 1: our when we put out all this to the world

1052
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 1: once again. Gain everyone the Young Cage sky my eight

1053
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:38,799
Speaker 1: hundred and four days in an Iranian prison. I'm going

1054
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:43,960
Speaker 1: to buy the book on What's that thing I have?

1055
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 1: Melissa Audible, Thank you Audible. I'm going to buy it

1056
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:50,279
Speaker 1: on Audible when I get off here, and I'm going

1057
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 1: to start listening today. So we appreciate you, Kylie, thank

1058
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:56,719
Speaker 1: you so much. Stay there. We'll say goodbye, affair, but

1059
00:56:56,840 --> 00:56:59,840
Speaker 1: thanks for being on the new project. Where really glad you?

1060
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:02,680
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me on Craig. It's been

1061
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:03,160
Speaker 2: a pleasure.

1062
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:07,080
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thanks Melissa, thank you both. Oh my goodness,

1063
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:07,680
Speaker 1: what a story.

1064
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:09,440
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry you had to go through that, but

1065
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:11,759
Speaker 2: thank you so much for sharing it. Appreciate it.

1066
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:13,279
Speaker 1: Thanks everyone, Love you.