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Speaker 1: Very hard when you're there to realize that there's something

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Speaker 1: else out there because you're scared, you're terrified of moving

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Speaker 1: on because it's what you know. I'd just say it's

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Speaker 1: okay to when it's okay to have failed. I think

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Speaker 1: one of the major steps is always accepting that shit,

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Speaker 1: you might have failed at something, but that's not the

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Speaker 1: end of it, that's not the end of view. And

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Speaker 1: then the other one is like, it's okay to take

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Speaker 1: the leap and flounder for a bit and to go

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Speaker 1: through a chaotic period where life isn't super stable because

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Speaker 1: I reckon you find something on the other side of it.

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Speaker 1: That's my experience for sure.

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Speaker 2: Kat, thanks for listening to the show. This is Better

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Speaker 2: than Yesterday. Useful tools and useful conversations to help make

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Speaker 2: your day to day better than yesterday every single week

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Speaker 2: since twenty thirteen. My name is Josha Ginsburg. I'm so

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Speaker 2: grateful that you're here as a part of the show,

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Speaker 2: and thank you for those who click on the link

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Speaker 2: in the show notes to leave a book review for

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Speaker 2: the brand new book So What Now What? That is

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Speaker 2: an enormous way that you can help me out. If

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Speaker 2: you've got the new book and you want to help

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Speaker 2: us out here at the show, just click on that link.

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Speaker 2: It gives people the social proof of like, I'm not

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Speaker 2: the first person to think this is okay. I can

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Speaker 2: buy this too. It would be enormously I'll put the

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Speaker 2: link in the show notes. I'll be really great. Also,

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Speaker 2: if you want to check out the live show that

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Speaker 2: we're doing on the seventh of September, we're doing story

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Speaker 2: Club once again. We do it every month. Greteley Jackson,

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Speaker 2: John Glover, Nigel Marsh, Sashi Pereira, Kevin Han and myself.

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Speaker 2: We are bringing true stories based around the theme Pants

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Speaker 2: on Fire. I've read some of the stories and it

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Speaker 2: is going to be enormous. Tickets are on sale, there's

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Speaker 2: a few left, so get on Amongst that, it's part

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Speaker 2: of the Sydney Fringe Comedy and yeah, I'd love you

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Speaker 2: to be there. Come check it out. So I got

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Speaker 2: a question about success, how do you measure success? And

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Speaker 2: for a seemingly similar but actually quite very different question,

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Speaker 2: how do you measure failure? Are these measures based on

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Speaker 2: expectations that others have set for you, maybe expectations whore inherited,

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Speaker 2: or are they ones that you've set for yourself, Do

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Speaker 2: they help you, can they perhaps lead you somewhere that

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Speaker 2: you might not want to be? And what happens when

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Speaker 2: win or lose the thing you were so bent on

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Speaker 2: succeeding in goes away. We're going to cover all of

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Speaker 2: that as so much more today with my guest, former

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Speaker 2: professional football player now journalist and author, Brandon Jack. To

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Speaker 2: say that Brandon was raised in a sporting household, it

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Speaker 2: would be a bit of another statement. He's the son

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Speaker 2: of rugby league legend Gary Jack, the younger brother of

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Speaker 2: the Sydney Swans captain Kiiran Jack. They were playing around

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Speaker 2: the same time, so it's not much of a surprise

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Speaker 2: that Brandon ended up playing in the Sydney Swims himself.

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Speaker 2: There he discovers interesting new relationships to his teammates, to

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Speaker 2: the pressure to succeed, and to alcohol. His career lasted

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Speaker 2: a total of twenty eight games, which is the average

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Speaker 2: career length of somebody in the AFL, and when his

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Speaker 2: career was over, he was left with no lack of

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Speaker 2: things to think about and reflect on. It was a

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Speaker 2: bit of a rocky road, but he wrote about it

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Speaker 2: in his memoir twenty eight. But he's got a new

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Speaker 2: book out. Now it's an even bigger step than that

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Speaker 2: because he's got his debut novel. He's written his debut novel.

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Speaker 2: It's called Pissants, and it is a story that shines

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Speaker 2: a light on footy club culture, on masculinity, and what

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Speaker 2: happens when your dreams don't turn out as you had hope.

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Speaker 2: This is a great conversation. We talk about that very

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Speaker 2: particular male culture that can exist in sport, the factors

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Speaker 2: that contribute to it. We talk about expectation, identity, reinvention, validation.

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Speaker 2: What lessons did he get from being a part of

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Speaker 2: the big game, and what would he say to somebody

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Speaker 2: who needs to find a new path in their own life.

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Speaker 2: It's a great conversation. We're going to get to it

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Speaker 2: right after this break. All right, let's get to the

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Speaker 2: chat Brandon Jack. His new book is called piss Ants.

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Speaker 2: It is extraordinary. I think my favorite part about it

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Speaker 2: is the team and the whole book. The name of

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Speaker 2: the team has redacted. Enjoyed this conversation with Brandon Jack.

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Speaker 2: Look the analogies between sport and life. I mean, that's

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Speaker 2: why we have it, really, isn't it. Regardless, Thanks for

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Speaker 2: coming in brown. Tell you I'm good, mate, I am,

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Speaker 2: I'm good. You know. I think there's a little bit

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Speaker 2: of footy talk that we've started before.

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Speaker 1: This is the already started.

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Speaker 2: Shit, were already, We're already already away. How O were

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Speaker 2: you when you realize that your dad kind of had

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Speaker 2: a different job and it was unlike other dads.

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Speaker 1: I think I always I think like my earliest memories

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Speaker 1: are of dad's jerseys hanging up at home, and I

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Speaker 1: the first thing I had in my family home when

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Speaker 1: you walked in was like Dad's Australian jersey framed and

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Speaker 1: then the New South Wales was one and the Bowmain

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Speaker 1: Tigers one. Like that's all I knew. I think I

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Speaker 1: was a little bit older when I realized that was different.

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Speaker 1: That was pretty special for a period, I think I

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Speaker 1: thought everyone's dad played for Australia. I think I thought

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Speaker 1: like that, you know, your dad didn't, you know, win

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Speaker 1: the Golden Boot one year. There was a wild revelation that.

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Speaker 1: But I also knew that, you know, we'd go to

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Speaker 1: the shops a lot growing up and guys would stop

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Speaker 1: Dad always guys, and you could see the look in

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Speaker 1: their eyes and they just want to chat. To him

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Speaker 1: about Bawmain Tigers in the eighties, and I saw the

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Speaker 1: impact he had on people and that people kind of

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Speaker 1: idolized his success. So it was always there. And it's

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Speaker 1: an odd thing of thinking it's normal while also being

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Speaker 1: like it's pretty special.

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Speaker 2: It's a takes a mindset. I mean, certainly getting ready

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Speaker 2: to interview you. Of course I know who he is.

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Speaker 2: I mean, can rewatch some of that stuff. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 2: you'd be playing a game with three men on the field.

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Speaker 2: With the current way the game's played there, everyone who

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Speaker 2: gets sent off for everything. It was so fucking violent. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I never saw Dad play live.

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Speaker 2: I think he finished.

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Speaker 1: He came back and played one year in Australia after

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Speaker 1: I was born. Because I was born, he went and

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Speaker 1: coached over in England for a bit. So I have

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Speaker 1: no memories of him playing, but I've seen footage and

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Speaker 1: like even the way he used to run at people,

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Speaker 1: he had no care for his own health and well being,

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Speaker 1: and his body would have copped it. He was quite

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Speaker 1: a slender guy as well, he would have copped it.

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Speaker 1: And I always remember people stopping him and just telling me, like,

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Speaker 1: your dad was a hard bastard, Like that's all people

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Speaker 1: used to say to me, and yeah, the different era,

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Speaker 1: and it is kind of like, I think, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if he's suffered any effects of that prolonged I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's obviously a fear that a lot of those guys

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Speaker 1: that generation have about the ongoing effects of concussion or whatever.

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Speaker 1: But I think Dad's been pretty lucky. But yeah, I

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Speaker 1: just remember being told your dad's a hard bastard a

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Speaker 1: lot growing up.

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Speaker 2: That could be a blessing a curse. As a school kid.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it just instilled in me from a young age

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Speaker 1: that if you're successful at sport, then you know, you

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Speaker 1: can get the ad espression in Australia, you can get

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Speaker 1: the admiration of people. And it's a we were just

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Speaker 1: talking before, I think before we started that it's something

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Speaker 1: that gives us a lot of analogies for life, but

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Speaker 1: it gives us people love bonding over sport. It's so interwoven.

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Speaker 2: It's just so I think sport is just so important

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Speaker 2: in Australia when we're living in such a fracturedly a

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Speaker 2: culturally fractured society, you absolutely have to have something that

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Speaker 2: two strangers can talk about. It's so important.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's so funny. So now in the writing

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Speaker 1: world that I exist in, I thought I might get

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Speaker 1: away from For a long time, I really wanted to

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Speaker 1: get away from sports because I did. It's all I

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Speaker 1: knew growing up and had a career that, you know,

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Speaker 1: I kind of wanted to push away from. But even

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Speaker 1: in this writing world, or you meet some big intellects,

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Speaker 1: they just fucking love sport, like they just want to

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Speaker 1: talk about footy, and you realize that you can intellectualize

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Speaker 1: a lot of things in life, but sport. You can

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Speaker 1: do it with sport as well. But to be honest,

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Speaker 1: sometimes people just want a team to go for, want

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Speaker 1: colors to wear, and then they don't care about the

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Speaker 1: beliefs or anything of the other person next to them.

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Speaker 1: For a lot of the time, it's just we're both

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Speaker 1: going for this team who we hope scores more points

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Speaker 1: than that other team, and it's a nice escape from

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Speaker 1: everything else for a couple of hours every.

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Speaker 2: Week, all sports a story. Here's a bunch of guys

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Speaker 2: who may or may not be from this particular geographic area,

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Speaker 2: wearing this particular color clothing. Here's a bunch of other

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Speaker 2: guys wearing a different color clothing that may or may

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Speaker 2: not be from another geographic area, but half of the

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Speaker 2: MCG think it's really important that those guys get that

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Speaker 2: ball through there more than those dudes, and we will

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Speaker 2: share ourselves horse to make.

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Speaker 1: It happen, honestly, being like the MCG when it's packed,

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Speaker 1: I played through a couple of times in front of

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Speaker 1: decent crowds, but going to like Grand Finals and stuff

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Speaker 1: there when it's one hundred thousand people, nothing else gives

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Speaker 1: you that, like my heart starts racing and you feel

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Speaker 1: something in the crowd cheers, the kind of collective consciousness

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Speaker 1: or understanding of what's going on in the game, and

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Speaker 1: it's not scripted, and nothing else. I don't think anything

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Speaker 1: else gives us that level of entertainment.

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Speaker 2: We'd like to think that we're, you know, really smart.

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Speaker 2: We're not. We're hard to gatherers, and we're in and

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Speaker 2: out group.

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Speaker 1: Want to be a ball kicked between sticks because it

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Speaker 1: makes us feel something.

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Speaker 2: It's in and outgroup, all right, it's in a group,

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Speaker 2: in our group, and if our outgroup, if our in

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Speaker 2: group losers, then us and the other people that are

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Speaker 2: wearing our tribal colors gets us sit on the train

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Speaker 2: and go Yeah, that referee, then what do we have.

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Speaker 2: We're together, you know, the stranger and I we belong

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Speaker 2: to each other similarly on the other side. That's what

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Speaker 2: That's what it is, and that's what you know. We're

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Speaker 2: asking these athletes, people like yourself, can you please go

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Speaker 2: out their own risk, your ability to throw your children

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Speaker 2: in the air when you're an older man so I

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Speaker 2: can see an amazing mark or a great tackle. Please.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And coming from a player's point of view, I think,

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Speaker 1: having been in that that's in my early twenties, it's

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Speaker 1: like you will willingly do that. You won't think about

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Speaker 1: anything else in the future because you just like you

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Speaker 1: get a sense of purpose and fulfillment from doing that

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Speaker 1: at that point in time. And it's exciting. It's just

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Speaker 1: it's exciting to be in the middle of a stadium

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Speaker 1: with forty fifty thousand people watching, like you're probably not

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Speaker 1: going to think about life twenty years down the track.

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Speaker 1: It's like, I'm here now and I'm a god. Some

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Speaker 1: people might feel like that. I mean, I didn because

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Speaker 1: I was pretty shit, But some people feel like that's

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Speaker 1: the height.

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Speaker 2: You were less shit than the people that didn't make

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Speaker 2: the team. Come on, man, like the new book, Pisance

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Speaker 2: is about the people that didn't make it. Really, It's

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Speaker 2: about the guys that we all want to be, you know,

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Speaker 2: full forward for whoever, we all want to be the

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Speaker 2: halfback for whoever center for. I'm just trying to always

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Speaker 2: just keep naming sports attack for whoever we want to make.

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Speaker 2: You know, and there's schoolboy, and then I you're pretty good,

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Speaker 2: and then there's club on the side. At what point

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Speaker 2: in your playing career did you start to notice that

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Speaker 2: I'm progressing faster than people I started with.

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Speaker 1: I think even though I came from a pretty you know,

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Speaker 1: notorious sporting family, I always felt out to work really

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Speaker 1: hard and I wasn't like the superstar kid growing up

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Speaker 1: at all. I think because of my last name, people

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Speaker 1: would watch me a bit more and give me more attention.

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Speaker 1: I'd say. I was probably sixteen or seventeen when I

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Speaker 1: switched from rugby league. So dad played rugby league. It's

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Speaker 1: all we did growing up, grew up in Sydney. At fifteen,

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Speaker 1: I switched to Ozzie Rules because my older brother Kieran

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Speaker 1: was playing for the Swans was doing quite well there,

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Speaker 1: so I said, well, shit, if Kieran can do it,

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Speaker 1: I think I can do it too, And then it

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Speaker 1: was really bad at Ossie Rules for a couple of years.

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Speaker 1: Then got put in the Swans Academy when I was

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Speaker 1: quite young, Swans Academy which surrounded me with the most

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Speaker 1: talented kids in Sydney and that really.

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Speaker 2: Far kids from all over the country people. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it fast tracked my development and then you know,

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Speaker 1: by the time I was eighteen was when it was

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Speaker 1: very much like, all right, your chance to get drafted.

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Speaker 2: To the Swans.

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Speaker 1: And even still wasn't one of the better players in

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Speaker 1: the New South Wales team, for example, it was probably

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Speaker 1: one of the bottom players. But I think because of

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Speaker 1: who I was, my name, they saw potential there. So

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Speaker 1: I'm very aware of that.

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Speaker 2: Get nobody's doing this for favors, mate, Yeah, I would

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Speaker 2: challenge you on that, all right. I used to because

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Speaker 2: I know I used to think honestly, I thought they

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Speaker 2: gave me the Australian Idol job as a favor because

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Speaker 2: I did not have the self worth. It was only

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Speaker 2: years later that I realized, oh no, hang on, they

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Speaker 2: could have chosen anyone to do, but they weren't for

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Speaker 2: the person that made the most business sense.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, the business sense was I think they saw

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Speaker 1: the potential I had. I think I had that promise

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Speaker 1: of potential and a work ethic that they saw in

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Speaker 1: Kieran that they saw in me as well.

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Speaker 2: So that's what an academy. Yeah, well I've met some

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Speaker 2: of those kids. There was a sauna place I used

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Speaker 2: to go to in Kujie and I've sat in the

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Speaker 2: Sworna with some guys like seventeen eighteen all living in

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Speaker 2: a sharehouse in Maroona that was owned by the club.

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Speaker 2: What's it like when you're surrounded why people who are

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Speaker 2: all focused on the same thing that you are. What

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Speaker 2: does it give you?

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Speaker 1: Well, this is very much where this book Pissants kind

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Speaker 1: of draws on. It is it's interesting being an eighteen

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Speaker 1: year old. So let's talk say you're a professional level now.

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Speaker 1: So you're eighteen. You've been drafted by the Swans or

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Speaker 1: by football club. At the Swans because it was in

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Speaker 1: Sydney and a lot of guys came from interstate. You'd

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Speaker 1: go into a housing program where there'd be three guys

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Speaker 1: living at a house. You didn't really know each other,

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Speaker 1: and your common threat is footy. Well, what do you

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Speaker 1: think happens when you put a bunch of eighteen year

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Speaker 1: olds in house together with a bit of money and

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Speaker 1: a bit of you know, puff their chests out of it.

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Speaker 1: Because of footy players, we had parties. We didn't really

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Speaker 1: think about much else outside of footy and didn't really

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Speaker 1: didn't really focus on personal development in a way. It

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Speaker 1: was like, you train, you go out for dinner with

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Speaker 1: the boys, you play on Saturday, and then well, let's

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Speaker 1: go out to a nightclub Saturday night because you're young

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Speaker 1: and you can. And from that you get very interesting friendships,

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Speaker 1: ways of bonding that are kind of connected to connected

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Speaker 1: to one the game you play, you spot in the team,

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Speaker 1: and alcohol as well. That was a big thing for

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Speaker 1: me when I was playing footy.

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Speaker 2: How do you feel?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so eighteen to twenty three. I was at

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Speaker 1: the Swans doing that and you how do you feel?

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Speaker 1: No one, no one was asking fucking how do you feel?

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Speaker 1: But our way of almost doing that was to drink

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Speaker 1: a lot together and to and I come with this

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Speaker 1: now from everynewed perspective of being, like, well, that was

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Speaker 1: kind of all we knew. How that was our way

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Speaker 1: of bonding. And you look at it from the outside

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Speaker 1: and say, that's really toxic and it's wrong. Yeah, in

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Speaker 1: a lot of ways it is, but that's all we

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Speaker 1: knew how to do, and if you took that away

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Speaker 1: from us, then it was like we fucking wouldn't talk

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Speaker 1: and it'd be more lonely. So pistance became a kind

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Speaker 1: of study of that in a way of well, let's

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Speaker 1: look at how eighteen to twenty three old blokes bond

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Speaker 1: and make people who wouldn't normally spend time with a

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Speaker 1: group like that. So if you don't really like footy,

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Speaker 1: or you don't really like those guys, or you see

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Speaker 1: them at the pub, you might walk away from them.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, well, let's give you three hundred pages of

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Speaker 1: a book where you have to sit with them and

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Speaker 1: you actually kind of learn a bit about why they're

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Speaker 1: doing the things they're doing. And it's yeah, it's a

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Speaker 1: lot of people have taken that from it. Some people

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Speaker 1: fucking hate it, which is good. I want people to

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Speaker 1: kind of hate what I write sometimes because it means.

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Speaker 2: It's what do they hate about it.

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Speaker 1: Some people just read it as this is a bunch

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Speaker 1: of bad blokes doing bad things and it's immature, which

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Speaker 1: is like, that's fine. If that's what you get from it.

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Speaker 2: Then I hate to break it to them, but people

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Speaker 2: who have that critique might have just never spent time

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Speaker 2: around a bunch of unsupervised, unparented eighteen years away from home. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: these guys exist. Everyone's searching for a father figure everywhere,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's another thing I think somebody said to

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Speaker 1: me after reading the book that they were like, I

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Speaker 1: was looking for a father figure for these guys in

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Speaker 1: the book. And there's one coach who has a few

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Speaker 1: chapters and he's probably the worst father figure you can get.

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Speaker 1: He's a coke addict who's just always searching for cocaine.

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Speaker 1: It's all he's doing the whole book. And he's the

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Speaker 1: assistant coach of this team. So anyone who's looking for guidance,

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Speaker 1: there's nothing really there outside of this team ethos. It's

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Speaker 1: like we care about each other. We're driven to succeed.

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Speaker 1: All his marketing phrases and footy clubs have which doesn't

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Speaker 1: really steer them in the right direction with much.

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Speaker 2: I always think about you're dedicating your entire life to it.

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Speaker 2: As you said, you played league for when you were

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Speaker 2: a kid, and you switch when you were fifteen so easily.

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Speaker 2: Probably eighteen years of your life from when you first

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Speaker 2: got past the ball you could catch and you have

345
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Speaker 2: the coordination to catch a ball easily, eighteen years of

346
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Speaker 2: your life been dedicated to getting really good at this thing,

347
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Speaker 2: and then it's gone. How do you know? How do

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Speaker 2: you look at yourself? What happens to your self identity?

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Speaker 1: It's a I don't think as many the professions, like

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Speaker 1: I think modeling, modeling might be the only comparable one

351
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Speaker 1: where you kind of are used by date is on you,

352
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Speaker 1: and then everything you've kind of spent your life doing

353
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Speaker 1: is then gone, and not even gone, but it's it's

354
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Speaker 1: you can't really go back and do that thing again.

355
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Speaker 1: Like once I was out of the system, I was like, okay,

356
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Speaker 1: I'm out of the system. I'm not going to go

357
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Speaker 1: back and plays rules again. It's tough because your whole

358
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Speaker 1: identity becomes tired up in it. You know, when your

359
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,520
Speaker 1: whole identity is about being the best player you can

360
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Speaker 1: be on that field, and then that's taken away from you.

361
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Speaker 1: I felt this huge sense of I felt like I

362
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Speaker 1: was falling for like three or four years. I really

363
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Speaker 1: I came out and I started going to a UNI

364
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Speaker 1: full time, started playing a bit of music as well,

365
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Speaker 1: and doing a few other things. But I didn't have

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Speaker 1: any sense of what the fuck I was actually doing.

367
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Speaker 1: I was just falling. And then you know, that's when

368
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Speaker 1: alcohol and dry become something that you gravitate towards, not

369
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Speaker 1: because you just want to feel good, and those become

370
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Speaker 1: things that make you feel they just give you an

371
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Speaker 1: instant burst. You're just so sad you need something, and

372
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Speaker 1: it's a lot easier to gravitate towards those things than

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Speaker 1: to pull yourself up and be like, oh shit, I've

374
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Speaker 1: got to face some kind of things here that are

375
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Speaker 1: quite difficult, you know. I've got to go maybe see

376
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Speaker 1: a therapist, and I've got to put some things in

377
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Speaker 1: place in my life that give me a reason to

378
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Speaker 1: get out of bed. And that took me three or

379
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Speaker 1: four years to get to. And I'm my fingers kind

380
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Speaker 1: of on the pulse with myself and I do a

381
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Speaker 1: lot of self reflection, but it's still it took me

382
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Speaker 1: three or four years of feeling shit and depressed to

383
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Speaker 1: then start making those and I'm still making them now.

384
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Speaker 1: I've been out of the system for eight years and

385
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Speaker 1: I'm still see a therapist once a month on antidepressants.

386
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Speaker 1: I started taking those a couple of years ago, but

387
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Speaker 1: it was just a long journey to realize, you know,

388
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Speaker 1: there's some things I need to do to help me

389
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Speaker 1: confront or to deal with this sense of a sense

390
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,520
Speaker 1: of failure that you feel from a career that's over

391
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Speaker 1: so young.

392
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just such a huge risk that we ask,

393
00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,320
Speaker 2: you know, men and women to take for our entertainment,

394
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,840
Speaker 2: not only putting your body on the line. Your career

395
00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,520
Speaker 2: could be over like that. You know, you could blow

396
00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,800
Speaker 2: an emptl and then miss your training window and then

397
00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,560
Speaker 2: never get back to the squad and that's it gone.

398
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,560
Speaker 2: It's interesting the idea that alcohol is used as a

399
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,800
Speaker 2: part of it when you're younger to help the guys.

400
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:37,240
Speaker 2: You know, I get the boys getting it getting again

401
00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,840
Speaker 2: and like it's bonding and as a thing that's always

402
00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,000
Speaker 2: around that can put some distance between you and there

403
00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,359
Speaker 2: is comfort of I'm sitting with someone from Uriepta from

404
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:46,560
Speaker 2: South Australia. I don't know anything about them, but we

405
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:48,880
Speaker 2: both wear the same T shirt when we go to training. Ah,

406
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,320
Speaker 2: let's have a beer. Now we've got something in common.

407
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:53,919
Speaker 2: And if we start to use I mean, like, you know,

408
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:56,120
Speaker 2: let me be really clear. I'm fifteen and a half

409
00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,879
Speaker 2: years sober, so I know exactly how alcohol can be

410
00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:02,320
Speaker 2: a problem when you're using it to get to you

411
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,960
Speaker 2: over the line in a social situation. But if you

412
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:09,560
Speaker 2: never develop the skill because of that, then you just

413
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:10,239
Speaker 2: need more of it.

414
00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:17,840
Speaker 1: That's what it is. It's low as your inhibitions. If

415
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,600
Speaker 1: you're an anxious person and you're with people you don't know,

416
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,240
Speaker 1: it's like and I still feel this today. So I've

417
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,280
Speaker 1: gone back and forth in my life about having problems

418
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Speaker 1: with alcohol. Sometimes I know I'm using it to self medicate.

419
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Speaker 1: There are times when I know, in a social situation,

420
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Speaker 1: I'll have to stop myself from drinking because I know

421
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:35,680
Speaker 1: i'm doing it because I am not developing that skill.

422
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,120
Speaker 1: Like you said, if you're always feeling uncomfortable, then you drink,

423
00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:41,919
Speaker 1: you never learn how to. I can actually be okay

424
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Speaker 1: with the discomfort of not knowing these people. And that's

425
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:47,160
Speaker 1: my other fact that you know, fifteen and a half

426
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:48,280
Speaker 1: years sob. But that's incredible.

427
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:52,680
Speaker 2: That was good to die. Yeah, okay, you know, still

428
00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,080
Speaker 2: well done the choice as well. Look the choices and

429
00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,400
Speaker 2: the things that you mentioned lower and inhibition. But yeah,

430
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,040
Speaker 2: the choices that became really good ideas when I was

431
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,040
Speaker 2: drinking sot to be pretty fucking bad choice, yes, and

432
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,080
Speaker 2: I was. My dopamine system got so just regulated I

433
00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:10,960
Speaker 2: was unable to not do it anymore. And that's the

434
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:12,920
Speaker 2: thing that well, I don't understand about addiction. It's not

435
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,119
Speaker 2: a choice. I'm not choosing to drink. I just can't not.

436
00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:18,560
Speaker 2: The best way to not drink is to not start.

437
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:20,119
Speaker 2: And that's I.

438
00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:23,760
Speaker 1: Think I got to, you know, probably thirty so last

439
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:25,840
Speaker 1: year before I realized like, ah shit, I've used this

440
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:27,639
Speaker 1: as a crux for a lot of my life, and

441
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:29,919
Speaker 1: it would have been quite easy to go through the

442
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:31,880
Speaker 1: rest of my life without realizing that as well.

443
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:32,760
Speaker 2: So it's.

444
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,400
Speaker 1: It's definitely in the fabric of those environments.

445
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,240
Speaker 2: If you're good at the game and going to work

446
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,000
Speaker 2: means let's say it's e MCD, for example, at a minimum,

447
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:49,560
Speaker 2: there's fifty five thousand people screaming your name. That's a

448
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,679
Speaker 2: thing that you remember and it becomes like, oh no,

449
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,360
Speaker 2: this is what it is to be me. Fifty five

450
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,320
Speaker 2: thousand people scream my name, And what do you do

451
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,160
Speaker 2: when that high gone? How do you get that back?

452
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 2: It's a high yeah, man. That's why I'm going to

453
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 2: get running back out there next week. I'm going to

454
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 2: you know, train real hard and I'm going to figure

455
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:09,480
Speaker 2: that out, and I'm going to work on their set

456
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:11,160
Speaker 2: play because i want to hear that sound again.

457
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,400
Speaker 1: That would have been my dad's career. Dad played two

458
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 1: hundred and forty four games and played for Australia and like,

459
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,879
Speaker 1: did everything you can do in rugby league. And then

460
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 1: I think about when I grew up. I at times

461
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,879
Speaker 1: I resented Dad for how kind of how outward he

462
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,080
Speaker 1: was with his career success and how he would have

463
00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 1: his jerseys on display, and I remember for a long

464
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,959
Speaker 1: time kind of being like, well, I was pissed off

465
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:40,880
Speaker 1: at Dad because I felt like he set me up

466
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 1: to feel like a failure because I'd never achieved what

467
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 1: he did. And I was like, I wish you weren't

468
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 1: or were showing your success. But then you know, again,

469
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,359
Speaker 1: the older I've got, the more I'm like, well, Dad

470
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 1: was just fucking proud of his career. And I know

471
00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 1: after Dad finished footy player in the eighties, he then

472
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 1: coached for a bit, he became a real agent. My

473
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:03,440
Speaker 1: memory of my dad is being a real estate agent

474
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,680
Speaker 1: in Blacktown, so not being Gary Jack at the center

475
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,359
Speaker 1: of you grand final. It was him selling houses in

476
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,639
Speaker 1: Blacktown and coming home and talking about commission. He was

477
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 1: scared about losing. I feel for him to have experienced

478
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 1: what he did and then to go the rest of

479
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 1: his life kind of chasing that high. And Dad, oddly,

480
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 1: that wasn't a drinker, Dad, That was I never outside

481
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 1: of having a drink with dinner. Maybe I never went

482
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:32,120
Speaker 1: to the parbor, didn't things like that, But he did,

483
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 1: like talking about his career, and I'm like, yeah, sure,

484
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,119
Speaker 1: you know that was That was him just trying to

485
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 1: feel some joy.

486
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 2: Still, I think it's also your job as a sun

487
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,479
Speaker 2: to go you know, there's also that, but in New

488
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 2: York case, because you did go to pursue that. It's

489
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,159
Speaker 2: in many ways it's It's been documented the challenge of

490
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 2: you know, a sign or a daughter of a successful

491
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:59,440
Speaker 2: person trying to do their thing. It comes with extra scrutiny.

492
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does. And to be honest, the most scrutiny

493
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,120
Speaker 1: I always felt was for myself though it was stigmas real, Yeah,

494
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 1: it was never I could care less if there was

495
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,919
Speaker 1: an article being like only half as good as his

496
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 1: dad or is like I think I'm proud of them.

497
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm they're my family, Like I'm proud of them.

498
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 1: But it was always internally. I think I had this

499
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 1: expectation where it wasn't just sex. Someone wrote that no,

500
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 1: but if maybe, I don't know if they did. The

501
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,679
Speaker 1: stigma came from internally, because I always felt that I

502
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,479
Speaker 1: was never just proud of playing professionally. Yeah, I was like,

503
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,160
Speaker 1: I was like Dad played two hundred and forty games,

504
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 1: Kieran played two hundred and fifty games, like unless I

505
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 1: played two hundred games, Like, I viewed my career as

506
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,880
Speaker 1: a failure. And I'm still reconciling that, Like, it's still

507
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 1: very hard. I played twenty eight professional games, which is

508
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,639
Speaker 1: thereabouts the average career length through an AFL player. But

509
00:24:55,720 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 1: I still very much struggle to not kind of not

510
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,679
Speaker 1: self deprecate about that and not to be like, well,

511
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 1: I was pretty sure I did it before. I'm like,

512
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: I'm a shit player. Like it's just it's a really

513
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 1: easy way to cope with that. Yeah. Yeah, so that

514
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 1: but that was always internal.

515
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,919
Speaker 2: The I mean, it's no comparison at all, but I

516
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 2: I recently would I did the Dancing with the Stars show.

517
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:28,399
Speaker 2: I saw that, yeah, right, And one of the Chris Brown,

518
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,120
Speaker 2: asked me, oh, do you worry about what they say

519
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 2: to you. I'm like, you don't understand. Whatever they say

520
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 2: to me is nothing compared to what I've got in

521
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 2: my head. So I don't care. You literally don't care.

522
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think there's a there's a level you can

523
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,199
Speaker 1: kind of get to, even even now with this, with

524
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 1: this book that's come out. It's quite funny. I have

525
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,199
Speaker 1: a friend, my best friend. I've told him to go

526
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 1: on good Reads every now and then and find me

527
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,159
Speaker 1: like the worst reviews of the book you can find.

528
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: And I'm like, just find me the most abhorrent thing

529
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: people are saying. And some of the ones he sends

530
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,199
Speaker 1: me are like fucking classic. We got one of them

531
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 1: blown up and put on a billboard actually in Paddington

532
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 1: last week. Just it was like essentially it said this

533
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 1: is not literature. In a round about it said this

534
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 1: is not literature. But it was a paragraph long and

535
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 1: I saw it and was like, that's awesome. You put

536
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,399
Speaker 1: it on a billboard. We put it on a billboard. Yeah,

537
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 1: why did you do that? Well, the whole the campaign

538
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,680
Speaker 1: was pissants, It's not for everyone, and then nice yeah

539
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,640
Speaker 1: marketing brain and then that quote, and then we had

540
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,360
Speaker 1: a photo of Aaron Gox, who's a comedian. Goxy looks

541
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 1: like the classic suburban footy player him reading the book,

542
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 1: and then the quote next to it from the person

543
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 1: who hated the book, and it just kind of looked

544
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,159
Speaker 1: quite funny. And it was blown up in Paddington outside

545
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 1: of retail store. So I feel for the I feel

546
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 1: for the women in that store who had to stare

547
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: out at Goxy's thighs all day. It was a fucking

548
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 1: massive postern. It was like eleven meters by three meters.

549
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 2: How did you get your publisher to pay for a billbook?

550
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: A lot of marketing is me reinvesting my advance with

551
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:03,400
Speaker 1: this book. I I I want to be a writer.

552
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: I want to be an author for like long term,

553
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 1: and I'm not financially motivated. I'm motivated about people knowing

554
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: my books out there and reading it. And book marketing

555
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 1: is slender, you know this comme on book marketing is slender.

556
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 2: It is.

557
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,919
Speaker 1: I took my advance and was like, how can I

558
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 1: use this to create more buzz interest in the book?

559
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 1: And I'm happy doing that because that's it's a part

560
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 1: of me is literary wank, like I just love writing

561
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: and want people to read the writing.

562
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:34,879
Speaker 2: But part of me is if you're going to do

563
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,239
Speaker 2: that at least or at least a beanie, but not

564
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 2: roll at the back of your head.

565
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 1: But then the other part of me is like, no,

566
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 1: the book world is a business, and you need to

567
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,679
Speaker 1: have people know your book exists. You need to go

568
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 1: into bookstores and talk to the bookstore owners and sign

569
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: books and do all those things because that then allows

570
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:55,400
Speaker 1: you to write more books in the future. So there's

571
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 1: a split in my brain which which knows that there's both.

572
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 2: With sport in Australia, it's often the lens through which

573
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 2: we view either healthy or unhealthy masculinity. There's been a

574
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 2: lot of many examples of fairly unhealthy displays of masculinity,

575
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 2: and over time, certain clubs, certain codes have come around

576
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 2: and started to put a fair bit more effort into

577
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 2: Like your experience that you're telling me very different to

578
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,439
Speaker 2: the one that I had. The conversation that I had

579
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 2: with those kids that were in the academy in that

580
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 2: sauna m two or three years ago. The kind of

581
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 2: lifestyle they were telling me about did not at all

582
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 2: echo what you just said.

583
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've kind of two responses here to that. One is, yeah,

584
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: I think it has changed a bit.

585
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 2: I think.

586
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: My era was a decade ago, and I think that

587
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: there's been some learnings from that, and when I'm writing

588
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 1: piss Hands about this stuff, I'm kind of about that generation.

589
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: It was probably ten years ago. Is the nickname culture.

590
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: The tall poppy syndrome that exists in the book was

591
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: what I knew about how to bond with bokes, Like

592
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: That's how I knew to do it, and I wanted

593
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: to write it in a way that was also humorous

594
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: because to me it was funny and you want you

595
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: want people to kind of read it and be like,

596
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,239
Speaker 1: ah shit, I get why this might draw people in,

597
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: Like it's I would never normally do this, but it's

598
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 1: kind of funny, and I want to be part of

599
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: this group now in culture out culture. Like you said,

600
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: The second thought I have on that is, if those

601
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 1: guys you're talking to are seventeen eighteen, they're fresh. They're

602
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 1: very fresh. It takes a couple of years to become

603
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: disgruntled piss ants on the outside and I think what

604
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 1: I provide to people is I know guys.

605
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 2: Who still play.

606
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: I know footy culture so well that anytime I see

607
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: like a really kind of you know, washed perspective of it,

608
00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 1: or like a really nice looking view of it, and

609
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm probably too cynical. Sometimes I'm like, there's

610
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: other shit going on there.

611
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 2: So no systems perfect, but that with the people at

612
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 2: least paying attention to what's going on, and they, let's

613
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 2: be honest, it's probably because of the financial risk and

614
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 2: development risk and parents not wanting their kid to get

615
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 2: involved in that kind of.

616
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: Scene, and the way that I think the social media

617
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 1: aspect and media in general is heightened now. I mean,

618
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 1: the backlash that players get for stepping out of line

619
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: is it's a financial risk. And that's my view of

620
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 1: footy clubs as well. Like I was talking about publishing world,

621
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 1: it's their businesses at the end of the day, and

622
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: they have values and standards that they're set at clubs,

623
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 1: but I always view that there's a financial reason beneath those.

624
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: One of the things I least like about the sporting

625
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: world is performative gestures and when I can kind of

626
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: tell that they're taking a stance just because it benefits

627
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: them financially. But and then I on an existential crisis

628
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: about like, well maybe they need to do that in

629
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 1: order to eventually believe it or make change. I don't know,

630
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: I'm probably too cynical about sports. Sometimes that's all right,

631
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: that's okay.

632
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 2: It leaves you to be open to be surprised and

633
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 2: delighted writing this book. I've when I was a long

634
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 2: time ago, I was a roadie. Why we're hearing aids

635
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 2: now one of the reasons, and the shitty covers bands

636
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 2: and we ended up playing it, like you know, football

637
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 2: clubs in Queensland, outskirts of Brisbane, northern New South Wales,

638
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 2: that sort of thing. And it really seemed to me

639
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 2: like there was this culture of dudes who manufactured a

640
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 2: way to keep that peaked in high school feeling forever right,

641
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 2: never go too high. I'm never going to go to

642
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 2: those grades. No, here's why, because this, that and the other.

643
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 2: But never, you know, always be kind of like the

644
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 2: big fella, you know, the big dude around.

645
00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: It's like even you're saying that, guys, I've played local

646
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 1: what you with come to mind? So you're right, you're

647
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 1: full You're right, local footy is its own beasts. And

648
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: I have this, I have this switch in my head

649
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 1: which I become a different person when I go back

650
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: to that local footy tape, and I just I think

651
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: that's why it became so easy to write Pissants and

652
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: all the ways, because I can just I talk different

653
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 1: as well. I kind of I go from being someone

654
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: who might explain things just being someone who will swear

655
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: a lot more or who will just call someone a

656
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: fuck wit like far more easily, and that becomes just

657
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 1: how we talk in that group and the group chats

658
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: we're in, it's the same thing. It's like I feel

659
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 1: like I regress, not regress, I just become a different

660
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: version of myself because that's what is accepted or what

661
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: makes me be accepted in that group. And it's taken

662
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: time to know when to not do that, to stand

663
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 1: up for something, but a lot of the time I

664
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: can feel myself falling back into that group, because, like

665
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: you said, you just want to be a part of something,

666
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: and it's always nicer to feel like you're a part

667
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 1: of something. So whenever I whenever I discuss footy club

668
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: culture and stuff now and writing piss ants about that.

669
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: I want people to understand why someone might be drawn

670
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: into that who otherwise you're like, oh, I thought they

671
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 1: wouldn't be like that. It's alluring.

672
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't want to be you don want to

673
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 2: be on the outer I mean any any like more

674
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 2: women listen to this show than men. Yeah, but I

675
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 2: would encourage them to ask the man in your life

676
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 2: about last time he felt so uncomfortable about something that's

677
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 2: shot up in a group chat, and they'll probably say

678
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 2: it was within the last three hours. Yeah, and that

679
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 2: is as twenty twenty five as it gets. It's and

680
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 2: this is now, and we all know, and I know,

681
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 2: and I sit in some of these groups like that,

682
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 2: I've known you for twenty five years and I don't

683
00:33:59,120 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 2: know what to do now.

684
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 1: You know, there's some olders, there's some I have. I

685
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: just like mute them, or I'll leave the group if

686
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: it's if it's something that's too far, like I know

687
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,359
Speaker 1: when to fucking leave that. But some of them are

688
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 1: just like the ones I'm in were it's I was

689
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,720
Speaker 1: added to a group chat last week with a bunch

690
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 1: of guys I played with at the Swans who so

691
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,240
Speaker 1: we're all like early mid thirties. Now we played together

692
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 1: in our early twenties. They added me to this group

693
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 1: and they're just doing voice memo impressions of our old

694
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 1: coaches from like ten years ago. And it's the same

695
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,839
Speaker 1: jokes we were doing then. And I'd be lying if

696
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 1: I didn't say I was pissing myself while I was

697
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 1: pissing myself listening to these And when one of them,

698
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:42,919
Speaker 1: I could hear one of the guys as a kid.

699
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: Now the kid's like two years old and crying in

700
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 1: the back and he's doing an impression of our old coach,

701
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh man, I was so torn

702
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 1: because I loved it, but I was also like, fuck,

703
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 1: it's been ten years guys.

704
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 2: But look, I'm here for that because as a group

705
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 2: chat with a theme. There's a mate of mine. He's

706
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 2: a stand up and he is involved in a group chat.

707
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 2: It's this legendary stand up comic group chat and it's

708
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 2: international and I'm talking people with Netflix specials' on this

709
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 2: group chat. It consists solely of audio recordings of farts.

710
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 2: That's it.

711
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,879
Speaker 1: Well, okay, there's a there's a thread here because this

712
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 1: group I was added to ten years ago, it was

713
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: that same thing.

714
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 2: That's it.

715
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:24,720
Speaker 1: I think there's a some kind.

716
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 2: Of screenshots men and it's got this name. You're like,

717
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 2: holy fuck, I watched that guy's show and that's it.

718
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 2: That's it's three seconds long. It's genius.

719
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: Is that like the foundation of like mayor WhatsApp groups.

720
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 2: Those men and women in it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that

721
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 2: is a part of masculinity. Parts are funny and sometimes

722
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 2: as a man, I want to find a way that

723
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 2: I can just laugh at a fart with another human.

724
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 2: All right.

725
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 1: When I got added to WhatsApp a messenger group, but

726
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 1: they were literally impersonating our coach from ten years ago,

727
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, that's fucking hilarious.

728
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 2: Mate, Start doing that voice. But start you know, commentating

729
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 2: on news in the day, try and try and start

730
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 2: to steer it like the dealers. We only speak in

731
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 2: these words, but you know, start to steer it in

732
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 2: social commentary and see what happens.

733
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I might try that. There's like six or seven

734
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 1: monologues that we have that just come up again and

735
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 1: again and again, and it's like I would not have

736
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 1: talked to these guys outside of this for ten years.

737
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 1: And that's that's kind of footy friendships post playing together.

738
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: A lot of the time, it's like because you were

739
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,879
Speaker 1: teammates and you were really good mates, but you then

740
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 1: don't need to There's probably three or four guys I

741
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 1: keep in touch with that I played with, but outside that,

742
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: if I saw any of my old teammates that I was,

743
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: you know, played with a fair beer, you'd stop and

744
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 1: have a chat and get a coffee or something or

745
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 1: get a beer. Like it's very easy to slip back

746
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 1: into those friendships.

747
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 2: When it comes to the kind of culture that you

748
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 2: write about in the book, you said it was something

749
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 2: based upon You said it was based on something like

750
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 2: more kind of ten years ago. But is there ways

751
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 2: that you can kind of see little bits of that

752
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 2: popping up in the game that we see.

753
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:15,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, I am at its core. This book,

754
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 1: Pissanz focuses on a group of five players a it's

755
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 1: a professional grade football club. That's just the redacted football

756
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 1: club because I couldn't be fucked thinking of a name

757
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 1: for it. It's just a black bar football club. And

758
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: it's the five guys who are eighteen to twenty three,

759
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 1: is that at their range, who don't ever play in

760
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 1: the senior team. They never play in that team you

761
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 1: watch on TV, and the book follows their journey and

762
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 1: relationships with each other, and they're bonding rituals and the

763
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,760
Speaker 1: anti secut up to during the week to kill time

764
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: to give themselves a sense of purpose because they're not

765
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 1: feeling it from their career. That's a kind of analytical

766
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 1: version of it. At every footy club there is that group,

767
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 1: whether or not they do the things that this specific

768
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 1: group of piss Hans does, maybe in some way, but

769
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 1: there's always a group of five or six disgruntled players

770
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: who are not playing and who are not filled with

771
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 1: potential coming through and the promises that they will one

772
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 1: day to deliver. They're in like no man's land. And

773
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 1: that's probably common to a lot of workplaces, right that

774
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: the people who aren't who never kind of became the star,

775
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 1: but who've been there long enough where there's no value

776
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 1: assigned to them. And it's a I can look at

777
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,280
Speaker 1: any footy club list and probably give you an idea

778
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 1: of who those players might be because and you can

779
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 1: tell by their body language too. Sometimes I'll watch and

780
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: a player will get subbed off in the AFL. They'll

781
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 1: get subbed off at three quarter time, and you see

782
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 1: their body language when they go to the bench in there,

783
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 1: and you know if they've had like eight touches, they're

784
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: not a regular on the team. They're shitty because if

785
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 1: they got twelve, maybe thirteen touches, they could fight for

786
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 1: a spot next week. But eight touches is like, sorry,

787
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 1: you're not getting a game next week. And you can

788
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 1: just tell that that person is sitting there going Monday morning,

789
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 1: I've got to go in get told I didn't do

790
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 1: my job, have to wait around all week to get dropped.

791
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 1: That puts you in a really negative headspace and.

792
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 2: Still being expected to a high five the guy who's right,

793
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 2: it's going to take your spot next week.

794
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, finally, if my my my best mates at

795
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 1: the footy club became the guys who I'd swap spots

796
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,439
Speaker 1: with every week. There was about four of us who

797
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 1: I lived with, one of them Dean Towers, and one

798
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 1: of us had come home from their meeting and be

799
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 1: like the other one'd be like, oh, how'd you go.

800
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,280
Speaker 1: He'd be like, you'll be in this week, mate, don't worry,

801
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 1: you'll be in the team this week. And we're just

802
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:42,359
Speaker 1: chop and change, and oddly our my best mates became

803
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 1: the guys who I probably had every reason to hate

804
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: because we were competing for the same spot, but we

805
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 1: kind of took Soulos in, like we're in this together.

806
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:57,800
Speaker 1: They were the only ones who understood what it was like.

807
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 2: I. Even though he was a doctor, he had no

808
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 2: idea about the industry I worked in, and I lived

809
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 2: on the other side of the country, sometimes the other

810
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 2: side of the world. I'd still call my dad every

811
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 2: own again. He say, how are you going? So I'm

812
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,439
Speaker 2: dealing with this, and you know, he'd have a few words,

813
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 2: and it was always something kind of interesting. Did you

814
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 2: you know, did your brother who'd been in through the system,

815
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 2: you know, would be able to reach out to him

816
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 2: and get some guidance in this time in your life.

817
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:34,280
Speaker 1: It's tough because Kieran was the captain for my entire

818
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: time at the Swans. Kieran was the captain and I

819
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,839
Speaker 1: was kind of after my first three years. I was

820
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 1: never really in contention. And I feel for him having

821
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,240
Speaker 1: to be involved in all those match committee meetings where

822
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 1: they're talking about guys who could be selected, and he

823
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 1: would have seen my name magnet. He would have seen

824
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: it kind of getting pushed further and further to the side.

825
00:40:58,320 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 1: He would call me in.

826
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 2: So there's a whiteboard somewhere and people are shifting names around, Yeah.

827
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:05,359
Speaker 1: And mine would have gradually moved further and further away

828
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: from where you want to be on the whiteboard. Footy

829
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 1: whiteboards are fascinating. You could sit and analyze those for

830
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 1: hours and hours and hours. But mine was moving the

831
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:16,360
Speaker 1: wrong way. And Kieran would call me and be the

832
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 1: older brother that he needed to be, and I think

833
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 1: it would have been extra hard from him almost feeling

834
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 1: like he was involved in those discussions where I was

835
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 1: getting pushed away.

836
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 2: Yeah.

837
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 1: I know that he cared deeply about me in my career,

838
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:35,879
Speaker 1: but he also had his own career as well, and

839
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 1: that would have been bloody hard for him to do both.

840
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: And I admire the fact that he could do both

841
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 1: the way he did, but it would not have been

842
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 1: easy for him, but he did. He sometimes he would

843
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 1: call and just like, let me cry on the phone

844
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 1: if I got dropped. For probably the breaking point in

845
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:59,439
Speaker 1: my professional career was twenty fifteen. I'd played like seven

846
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:01,239
Speaker 1: or eight on nine games in a row, which was

847
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 1: the most I'd ever played in a row, and then

848
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 1: we played a final in Fremantle against Freemantle Ever in

849
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 1: Perth and I played house, played shit ouse and I

850
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 1: got dropped. That week before our next final. Kieran called

851
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 1: me straight after and his ball my eyes out, because

852
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 1: I knew that that was kind of it for me,

853
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 1: like I'd done everything I possibly could and I still

854
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:29,919
Speaker 1: wasn't good enough. And I remember he said that. Kieran

855
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: would always told me that I think he knew I

856
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 1: was not really a footy player at heart. I think

857
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: he knew I was going to go become a writer

858
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 1: or do something else one day, and he always subtly

859
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: reminded me of that. And so, you know, I think

860
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:44,919
Speaker 1: that what you're going to do outside of this world

861
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,280
Speaker 1: is probably going to be your thing more than inside

862
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,880
Speaker 1: this world. I remember him suddenly saying that to me

863
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 1: a few times, and at the time I probably hated

864
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 1: hearing that because I was like, no, I just want

865
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 1: to play footy. But now, yeah, I think I think

866
00:42:57,960 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 1: he understood who I was.

867
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 2: Someone's listening and they find themselves, whether their work life

868
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 2: or home life or whatever, They're like, oh, yeah, I'm

869
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 2: the pissent I'm here. What would you say to them?

870
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 2: What rather than be stuck there and not know what's

871
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 2: going to happen. What's some things that you do with

872
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:18,760
Speaker 2: the hindsight now that you might offer.

873
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 1: It's almost like a there's a there's a chance you

874
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,879
Speaker 1: experienced some kind of Stockholm syndrome where you just want

875
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 1: to stay because you're scared of leaving. But obviously where

876
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,720
Speaker 1: you are is putting you in a really negative space,

877
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 1: and it's making you detest your job and feel really

878
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,399
Speaker 1: negative about your life and go towards these outlets which

879
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 1: are not conducive of a healthy lifestyle. Very hard when

880
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 1: you're there to realize that there's something else out there

881
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 1: because you're scared, you're terrified of moving on because it's

882
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 1: what you know. I'd just say it's okay to when

883
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 1: it's okay to have failed. I think one of the

884
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 1: major steps is always accepting that shit, you might have

885
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 1: failed at something, but that's not the end of it,

886
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,280
Speaker 1: that's not the ind of you. Not everyone has to succeed.

887
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 1: And then the other one is like it's okay to

888
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 1: take the leap and flounder for a bit and to

889
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 1: go through a chaotic period where life isn't super stable

890
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:23,839
Speaker 1: because I reckon you find something on the other side

891
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 1: of it, and I've that's my experience for sure. I

892
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 1: floundered for a long time. Was a university student doing

893
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,840
Speaker 1: copywriting gigs for like fifty bucks, like a couple chrenty

894
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:38,479
Speaker 1: bucks a week at one point, and I was living

895
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:40,839
Speaker 1: off that and some youth allowance I was getting from

896
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 1: the government because I wasn't good with my money from footy.

897
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:49,839
Speaker 1: Then eventually I kind of, you know, things lifted, reconciled

898
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 1: my feelings with my past of footy and could you

899
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 1: start writing things I have?

900
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 2: So what happens when you take the time, yeah, to

901
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:04,840
Speaker 2: face the disgruntlement or resentment or something, to take the

902
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 2: time to be an acceptance of this is where I am.

903
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 2: And then how does that change when you're going to

904
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 2: apply for a job or possibilities that you see for yourself?

905
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 1: For me, for me, so for me, it was accepting

906
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:20,320
Speaker 1: that my career had not gone how I thought, accepting

907
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,240
Speaker 1: that my football career had ended with twenty eight games.

908
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 1: And I think I said earlier that took me two

909
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:31,400
Speaker 1: three years to get through that. And my coping mechanism

910
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 1: initially was to get as far away from foot as

911
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,879
Speaker 1: I had to just say I'm not a former football player.

912
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 2: Look at me. I felt hat and the guitar genuinely.

913
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 1: Anyway, maybe that's a story for a whole nother pod,

914
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 1: but yeah, I got as far away from it as

915
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 1: I could, and then life wasn't enjoyable doing that, though,

916
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 1: because you have this thing in the back of your

917
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: head that's still letting it control you, because it's driving

918
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 1: you away. For me, it was genuinely. When I started,

919
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 1: I saw a few different therapists, and I think it's

920
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 1: a big thing. If you see a therapist then know

921
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 1: that the first one you see might not be the

922
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 1: right one you have couldn't go anymore. You have to

923
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 1: find a connection with one. Otherwise I went in and

924
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 1: would lie to the one I audition process. Yeah, but

925
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 1: eventually I went in and found one who I felt

926
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 1: something from that. And it's been a gradual process of

927
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 1: a couple of years of realizing why I might feel

928
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 1: like a failure and being able to just accept that

929
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,839
Speaker 1: that's there, not trying to fight it away. So coming

930
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 1: to terms with that was a big deal. And then

931
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 1: when I go into a job interviews now, or go

932
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 1: into interviews or things like that, now I have a

933
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:42,479
Speaker 1: sense of I don't. I know who I am enough,

934
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: and I know that you know, I know where I've

935
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 1: ended up as a result where I've been as well,

936
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 1: and that's you can't change that. I can't go back

937
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:53,720
Speaker 1: and change that career. I can't go back and rewrite anything.

938
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 1: And there's no predestined path that you should be on.

939
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 1: And I think for so much of my life I

940
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 1: felt a predestined path, and when I would sway from

941
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 1: that at all, that's not feel like a failure. And

942
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 1: I'd feel like, shit, you didn't play trundred games. You're

943
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 1: on the wrong path. Correct it, corrected, and the anxiety

944
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 1: would come and you'd try and fight it, which makes

945
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:14,760
Speaker 1: it so much worse. So it's been a big practice

946
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:18,360
Speaker 1: of letting go of the idea that you should be somewhere.

947
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:22,879
Speaker 2: So now it's not like your first book was non fiction,

948
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 2: but to go out and now now I'm going to

949
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 2: write a novel, I'm going to write fiction. Now that's

950
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 2: a that's an entirely different tangent. Tell me about how

951
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,759
Speaker 2: are you with the path? Now are you how do

952
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 2: you approach this, you know, adventure that you're on.

953
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:43,279
Speaker 1: It's yeah, I never wrote fiction growing up I was.

954
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 1: I liked writing in school. I had teachers who would

955
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,359
Speaker 1: encourage bit to write, but I was a woeful fiction writer.

956
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 1: I think my teachers would laugh at my fiction writing.

957
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:53,239
Speaker 2: But I was back in the day when I laugh

958
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 2: at dumb kids did anymore? Apparently it's bad for them

959
00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 2: because I'm a shitty sense of self. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

960
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 2: This is while we have a nation of scribs. That's

961
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 2: why everyone's getting a prize. It fucking passed the parcel.

962
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 2: Fuck these.

963
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 1: The journey now is, I think specifically with writing, it's

964
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 1: interesting because I don't think about what to write next

965
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 1: now as well. I trust that while I would love

966
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 1: to be somebody who could write like a Trent Dalton

967
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 1: esque kind of novel, I could sit there and labor

968
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:28,399
Speaker 1: away at trying to do that, but I would get

969
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:30,919
Speaker 1: so shitty at myself that I can't write that way

970
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:33,919
Speaker 1: and I can't create that book, which would then could

971
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 1: make me feel like a failure. I can't do that.

972
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:40,240
Speaker 1: But instead, I've learned as a writer it's whatever instinct comes,

973
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:43,399
Speaker 1: and story comes follow that, and you don't know where

974
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 1: that's going to come from. As a writer, you don't know,

975
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:48,720
Speaker 1: it just comes. Sometimes and I've gotten better at following

976
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,359
Speaker 1: that when it comes. So I think that's a good

977
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 1: analogy for kind of how a treat life at the

978
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,320
Speaker 1: moment where I don't know what the next thing is

979
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 1: necessarily going to be, but I am open to the

980
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 1: idea coming in and then trusting. I got instinct around that,

981
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 1: and with piss Hands, that was the thing. Like I

982
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 1: tried to write a couple of books before that which

983
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 1: were just really bad. So after twenty eight, which was

984
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 1: my memoir, came out, I tried to write some manuscripts.

985
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 1: They were shocking. My publisher almost laughed at me for them,

986
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:21,479
Speaker 1: which was again quite funny. But then one day piss

987
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 1: Ants came and I was like, that's the thing we're

988
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:26,879
Speaker 1: going to do now. They say, it's finding your voice.

989
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's my voice, but it's it's

990
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 1: you know.

991
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 2: But there's really it's not it's you know, it's not

992
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 2: the fifty five thousand people at the MCG. Yeah. But

993
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:39,359
Speaker 2: when and I've had this experience is when you send

994
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:43,319
Speaker 2: someone the idea and they go fuck, yeah, like, oh

995
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 2: there it is. You stay a little straighter, you know. Yeah,

996
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:48,319
Speaker 2: it's that's the feeling like Okay, there's something here. This

997
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:50,319
Speaker 2: is where we go, and it's listening to those things

998
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:52,879
Speaker 2: and being sure to not ignore the science for them.

999
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 2: That is can often illuminate the path. It's when we

1000
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:58,239
Speaker 2: can get Oh no, I know you're just saying that

1001
00:49:58,280 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 2: to be nice to me. As we can we're just ignored.

1002
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, data, there's a there's a big sense of validation

1003
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 1: you can get from writing, and I'm also wary of

1004
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 1: I know when I'm writing to get validation. I did

1005
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 1: this a lot when I started doing some freelance journalism

1006
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 1: stuff and writing short stories. I'd write stuff really quick

1007
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:18,319
Speaker 1: and send it away to get a pat on the

1008
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 1: back from somebody, to get an editor be like, yeah,

1009
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: we'll publish that now. I don't do that now. I

1010
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 1: wait until it's something I really believe in. Yeah. I

1011
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:30,880
Speaker 1: am not going to rush the next book or anything,

1012
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 1: because I don't want to ever write from a place

1013
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 1: of wanting approval just for the sake of approval. I

1014
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 1: like that I write. I sit in my room and

1015
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:42,839
Speaker 1: I write, and I laugh at it and I'm like, huh. Then,

1016
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 1: regardless of what happens, at least I've enjoyed doing it.

1017
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 2: How would you like to see parents go about their

1018
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:50,280
Speaker 2: kids in sport.

1019
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: Again, this is one that I'm always asked if I

1020
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 1: do have kids, would I want them to play sport?

1021
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 1: And fuck yeah, I would like if they if they

1022
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:02,719
Speaker 1: want to play sport. Sport is a great way for

1023
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 1: kids to be in a team environment and to learn

1024
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:08,360
Speaker 1: how to learn resilience, to learn how to cooperate in

1025
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:10,800
Speaker 1: a team, to learn that you win and you lose,

1026
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 1: like sport teaches us lessons that nothing else can at

1027
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 1: such a young age. The thing I felt like I

1028
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 1: missed in my family was I don't think I was

1029
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 1: ever asked in that critical age of you know, your

1030
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 1: teenage years, if I wanted to keep playing. I don't

1031
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:29,920
Speaker 1: think I was ever and I was at times. I

1032
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:33,240
Speaker 1: think it was pretty obvious I didn't. Like I'm pretty

1033
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 1: sure it was obvious that I didn't want to play.

1034
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:40,399
Speaker 1: But I think Mum and dad of that era would

1035
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 1: just like just see it through, just see it through,

1036
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 1: And not that they pushed us by like setting up

1037
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 1: cones in the backyard and be like go on train.

1038
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 1: They just kept taking us to training, and I, as

1039
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:53,840
Speaker 1: a result, was like, well, Mum and Dad are spending

1040
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 1: their time on me. I should pay them back by

1041
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 1: doing it. I just think that I don't know. You've got,

1042
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:03,279
Speaker 1: like I said, you've got young kid get a sense

1043
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 1: of if they're actually enjoying it or not, and asked

1044
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:06,279
Speaker 1: and be like, do you want to keep doing this?

1045
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:13,080
Speaker 2: But it's immensely, immensely beneficial. The part about the sport,

1046
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 2: the lessons of sport I've seen. I missed out on

1047
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:16,279
Speaker 2: them when I was a kik be cause I don't

1048
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 2: really play much, but I've seen them in Georgia immensely.

1049
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:23,320
Speaker 2: They're learning how to win, but learning how to lose.

1050
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:28,719
Speaker 2: When you look at your career and you look at

1051
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:31,880
Speaker 2: the twenty eight games that you play, what do you

1052
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:35,880
Speaker 2: think is the most valuable lesson you've learned about? This

1053
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:39,319
Speaker 2: isn't going the way I want it to. So this is.

1054
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 1: Because at times I've handled feedback and failure really badly.

1055
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 1: There's been times I've handled it really poorly. But I

1056
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: do think I am good at losing, and like I

1057
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 1: can handle losing quite well and getting knocked back. So

1058
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:58,360
Speaker 1: for example, with the writing stuff, it's held me in

1059
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:02,239
Speaker 1: good stead. So when I sent my pub previous manuscripts

1060
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:05,840
Speaker 1: and Literallyane Jane Palferman, who's my publisher, who was a

1061
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 1: formidable force in Australian publishing.

1062
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:09,440
Speaker 2: She's feared by a lot of people.

1063
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 1: I sent her this manuscript and she read it was

1064
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 1: like seventy eighty thousand words and she read it and

1065
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:20,759
Speaker 1: her email almost said like, you know, you can get

1066
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 1: writing lessons like like a nice like a nice ish way,

1067
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:26,759
Speaker 1: because it was a crime book. And she was like,

1068
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:28,320
Speaker 1: if you want to write this kind of book, Brendan,

1069
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 1: you can go and get writing lessons for it, which

1070
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 1: was a big fat no to the manuscript that I

1071
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 1: just spent like six months of my life devoted to,

1072
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:41,120
Speaker 1: like every day. I think some people might be so

1073
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:44,400
Speaker 1: crushed by that they just don't write again. But for me,

1074
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:46,799
Speaker 1: it was like, well, all right, that's not it's what's

1075
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 1: the next thing I can do. I'm not going to stop.

1076
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:52,239
Speaker 1: That's what I've taken from sport and I was. I

1077
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 1: was at various points in my career like that. As

1078
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 1: a player. I was like, well I'll just train harder.

1079
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:00,319
Speaker 1: So that's always been in me. I can handle loss

1080
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 1: and rejection without it being the end of the world.

1081
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:04,760
Speaker 1: It's like, well, it's stuff's in my control.

1082
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:08,319
Speaker 2: What can I do next, and reminding yourself of those

1083
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 2: things that you can control, it gives us that sense

1084
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 2: of it can arrest that free ful feeling.

1085
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:18,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and I think that's something I've gotten better at,

1086
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:21,560
Speaker 1: as well as to even trying to sell a book.

1087
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 1: Now it's like you want everyone to read it, but

1088
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:27,719
Speaker 1: I can't control how many people see the book or

1089
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:30,879
Speaker 1: I can't control that, and I just have to come

1090
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:33,360
Speaker 1: back to saying, well, I wrote the book I wanted

1091
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 1: to write. I controlled that part of it, and now

1092
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:38,279
Speaker 1: you let it out in the world and you do

1093
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:40,279
Speaker 1: some marketing for it. But if people see it, they

1094
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:42,399
Speaker 1: see it. If they don't, it's not a reflection of

1095
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 1: you or the writing. You know's that's really what I

1096
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:48,560
Speaker 1: am reminding myself of at the moment.

1097
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:51,719
Speaker 2: I needed to hear that today because I put it

1098
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 2: on out two weeks ago and I still don't know

1099
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 2: how it's coming. You don't know in book world.

1100
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 3: I know it's crazy, but thank you, welcome, thanks for

1101
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 3: writing book, and thanks for opening the window to a

1102
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:07,480
Speaker 3: part of Australia that is so instinct, so intuitive, so

1103
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 3: intuitively Australian.

1104
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:12,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's guarded for reasons that I read the book,

1105
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:16,319
Speaker 2: but it kind of helps us understand a little better.

1106
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:18,839
Speaker 2: Like when you go to work and you're like, how

1107
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:22,480
Speaker 2: the fuck are you a grown man here saying that here? Like,

1108
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:25,879
Speaker 2: what world did you come from? This world where it's

1109
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 2: been fine the whole time? I don't know, but I

1110
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:30,919
Speaker 2: did my two hour induction video about how to speak

1111
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:33,680
Speaker 2: to people in meetings. I should be fine. I can't

1112
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 2: call you big guys. I can't call him big guys

1113
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:40,360
Speaker 2: in a company he's got big guys.

1114
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 1: Big guys.

1115
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 2: Laughed at it.

1116
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 1: Come on, he laughed at it.

1117
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:44,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's thinking it's funny. It's a thing that I

1118
00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:48,240
Speaker 2: think it might help more people understand that you can't

1119
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:49,799
Speaker 2: take a while to turn a cruise ship man.

1120
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:52,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe that's what the whole fucking book is. It's like,

1121
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:55,839
Speaker 1: this cruise ship has been going the same way it's

1122
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 1: been going for a long time, and we're not just

1123
00:55:57,680 --> 00:55:59,840
Speaker 1: going to go hard ninety degrees other way.

1124
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:03,239
Speaker 2: Those induction videos into suburban football clubs, life will be

1125
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:14,479
Speaker 2: better for them. That was Brandon Jack. The new book

1126
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:17,839
Speaker 2: is called Pissants. It's out right now. His other book,

1127
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 2: twenty eight you can also get. That's his memoir. It's

1128
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:23,800
Speaker 2: a Repper read, thank you so much for listening to

1129
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:26,920
Speaker 2: the show, and thanks for getting around. So what now?

1130
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:29,600
Speaker 2: What the new book that I've written. If you own it,

1131
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 2: please write a review for it. If you don't own it,

1132
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:34,719
Speaker 2: you can buy it and then write a review for it.

1133
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:36,560
Speaker 2: The links to both those things are in the show notes.

1134
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:38,200
Speaker 2: Thanks for being a part of it. I'll be back

1135
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:51,040
Speaker 2: here on Monday.