1 00:00:03,430 --> 00:00:05,990 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:05,990 --> 00:00:09,830 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. We've talked plenty about the extraordinary housing market with 3 00:00:09,830 --> 00:00:12,780 Sean Aylmer: prices booming over the last 18 months. Great news if you own 4 00:00:12,780 --> 00:00:15,300 Sean Aylmer: a property, but maybe not so good if you're trying 5 00:00:15,300 --> 00:00:18,349 Sean Aylmer: to get into the market. Now, new research shows the 6 00:00:18,380 --> 00:00:21,739 Sean Aylmer: surge in prices may have widened the gender wealth gap, 7 00:00:21,980 --> 00:00:26,390 Sean Aylmer: with women underrepresented in ownership of houses and investment properties. 8 00:00:26,790 --> 00:00:29,740 Sean Aylmer: The report is from CoreLogic. It's released today to coincide 9 00:00:29,740 --> 00:00:33,620 Sean Aylmer: with International Women's Day. Eliza Owen is CoreLogic Australia's head 10 00:00:33,620 --> 00:00:35,610 Sean Aylmer: of research. Eliza, welcome to Fear and Greed. 11 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:36,790 Eliza Owen: Thanks For having me. 12 00:00:37,140 --> 00:00:39,830 Sean Aylmer: So before we get into the report, just how much 13 00:00:39,830 --> 00:00:42,070 Sean Aylmer: have property prices boomed in the last year or so? 14 00:00:42,250 --> 00:00:47,080 Eliza Owen: Over the course of the pandemic, we've seen property prices 15 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:51,050 Eliza Owen: up about 25%. And when we did the analysis for 16 00:00:51,050 --> 00:00:55,860 Eliza Owen: this report, they'd risen about 22.4% through to January. So 17 00:00:55,860 --> 00:01:00,100 Eliza Owen: a new cyclical high, and of course that's far beyond 18 00:01:00,100 --> 00:01:03,610 Eliza Owen: what we've seen in wages, which have come up about 2.3%. 19 00:01:03,610 --> 00:01:08,810 Sean Aylmer: OK. So let's go through some of the findings from 20 00:01:08,810 --> 00:01:12,330 Sean Aylmer: the report. What percentage of residential property in Australia is 21 00:01:12,330 --> 00:01:13,149 Sean Aylmer: owned by women? 22 00:01:13,150 --> 00:01:18,800 Eliza Owen: Of the properties analysed by CoreLogic, we've seen about 26.6% 23 00:01:18,810 --> 00:01:22,200 Eliza Owen: are exclusively owned by women. So that means that we've 24 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:27,360 Eliza Owen: identified the property has at least one owner that is female, 25 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:32,740 Eliza Owen: might have multiple female owners. And that compares to 29.9% 26 00:01:32,740 --> 00:01:37,569 Eliza Owen: of properties that are exclusively owned by men. Now, interestingly, 27 00:01:37,569 --> 00:01:41,069 Eliza Owen: the highest or most frequent kind of ownership that we 28 00:01:41,069 --> 00:01:46,190 Eliza Owen: identified was actually joint between males and females. So that 29 00:01:46,190 --> 00:01:52,720 Eliza Owen: was a ownership rate of 43.5% of properties analysed. So that 30 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,420 Eliza Owen: means when you take into account, I guess at least 31 00:01:55,420 --> 00:01:57,840 Eliza Owen: partial share that women would have in property, that comes 32 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,360 Eliza Owen: out at about 70%. And it is again that little 33 00:02:01,450 --> 00:02:03,760 Eliza Owen: bit higher, about 73% for men. 34 00:02:04,270 --> 00:02:06,810 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Is there a difference in whether they're owning luxury 35 00:02:06,810 --> 00:02:10,360 Sean Aylmer: homes or whether they're owning units or investing, that type of thing? 36 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:13,070 Eliza Owen: Yeah. Good question. So this year we have done a 37 00:02:13,070 --> 00:02:17,660 Eliza Owen: little bit more analysis as to what kinds of properties 38 00:02:17,660 --> 00:02:21,390 Eliza Owen: are owned. So we know that an interesting dimension of 39 00:02:21,910 --> 00:02:25,870 Eliza Owen: the analysis we did this time around was houses versus units. 40 00:02:26,250 --> 00:02:31,000 Eliza Owen: And we found that exclusive ownership of women in houses 41 00:02:31,310 --> 00:02:37,560 Eliza Owen: was about 24%, but it was 28.5% for men across Australia. 42 00:02:38,010 --> 00:02:42,299 Eliza Owen: Now that has important implications for potential wealth gaps as well, 43 00:02:42,300 --> 00:02:45,480 Eliza Owen: because we know that houses tend to accumulate more value 44 00:02:45,750 --> 00:02:49,210 Eliza Owen: over time. We see that houses have had 10- year 45 00:02:49,210 --> 00:02:54,080 Eliza Owen: annualised growth of about 6% over the past decade, compared to 4% 46 00:02:54,700 --> 00:02:58,560 Eliza Owen: in the unit segment. So women do have that relatively 47 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:02,490 Eliza Owen: high level of ownership in the unit segment, but they 48 00:03:02,490 --> 00:03:06,630 Eliza Owen: are underrepresented in houses. That kind of also reflects the 49 00:03:06,630 --> 00:03:10,160 Eliza Owen: areas that they own in as well. We see particularly high 50 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:14,660 Eliza Owen: rates of ownership in the eastern suburbs of Sydney or inner 51 00:03:14,660 --> 00:03:17,340 Eliza Owen: city areas of Sydney and Melbourne, where you tend to 52 00:03:17,340 --> 00:03:21,950 Eliza Owen: get more units stock, and part of the overrepresentation of 53 00:03:21,950 --> 00:03:24,280 Eliza Owen: women in units as opposed to houses could come back 54 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:25,669 Eliza Owen: to affordability as well. 55 00:03:26,130 --> 00:03:28,440 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So if we just unpack that a little bit, 56 00:03:28,770 --> 00:03:31,780 Sean Aylmer: the gender pay gap, presumably plays a role in this. 57 00:03:32,020 --> 00:03:35,700 Sean Aylmer: Whilst the differences between men and women, each percentage point 58 00:03:35,860 --> 00:03:38,750 Sean Aylmer: would be, I'm guessing here, but tens of thousands of 59 00:03:38,750 --> 00:03:42,100 Sean Aylmer: homes. So in actual numbers, it's a big difference between 60 00:03:42,100 --> 00:03:42,560 Sean Aylmer: the two. 61 00:03:43,220 --> 00:03:43,510 Eliza Owen: Yes. 62 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:45,400 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. Is it about the fact that there is a 63 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,740 Sean Aylmer: gender pay gap and women do get paid less than 64 00:03:47,740 --> 00:03:51,030 Sean Aylmer: men? Is it about the fact that women have breaks 65 00:03:51,030 --> 00:03:53,760 Sean Aylmer: from work for children or for whatever other reason more 66 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:55,880 Sean Aylmer: than men do, and as a result, more difficult to 67 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:57,730 Sean Aylmer: save for a deposit? Why is it, do you think? 68 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,150 Eliza Owen: I think it's a combination of factors. One element is that 69 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:06,360 Eliza Owen: we are looking at the property market as a snapshot of ownership, 70 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,900 Eliza Owen: so there's probably a bit of legacy in that, where 71 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:13,410 Eliza Owen: some of these purchases were made when it was more 72 00:04:13,410 --> 00:04:16,349 Eliza Owen: common for men to have more participation in the labour 73 00:04:16,350 --> 00:04:21,720 Eliza Owen: force and probably bought property exclusively, whether they're in a 74 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,589 Eliza Owen: partnership or not. But a lot of this I think 75 00:04:24,589 --> 00:04:30,890 Eliza Owen: does come back to differences in earnings, differences in conditioning, 76 00:04:30,900 --> 00:04:35,050 Eliza Owen: in our attitudes towards property. One of the interesting findings 77 00:04:35,050 --> 00:04:39,770 Eliza Owen: we have from this report is that there's about 150,000 78 00:04:39,770 --> 00:04:44,610 Eliza Owen: additional properties owned by men and about 70% of those 79 00:04:44,610 --> 00:04:49,169 Eliza Owen: are actually investment properties. So this suggests that there may be 80 00:04:49,170 --> 00:04:53,820 Eliza Owen: some kind of higher engagement with men in that financialisation 81 00:04:53,870 --> 00:04:57,099 Eliza Owen: side of things and a kind of empowerment to use 82 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,260 Eliza Owen: housing as a kind of asset and investment vehicle. And 83 00:05:01,260 --> 00:05:04,310 Eliza Owen: then we come back to the pay parity issue where 84 00:05:04,670 --> 00:05:08,270 Eliza Owen: we know for average, full- time ordinary earnings, the gender 85 00:05:08,270 --> 00:05:12,589 Eliza Owen: pay gap is sitting at about 13.5 per cent. But we 86 00:05:12,589 --> 00:05:15,310 Eliza Owen: have to remember that when it comes to women's participation 87 00:05:15,310 --> 00:05:18,460 Eliza Owen: in the labour force, they don't represent a ton of 88 00:05:18,460 --> 00:05:22,490 Eliza Owen: the full- time workforce, whereas they do represent over 60% 89 00:05:22,490 --> 00:05:27,550 Eliza Owen: of the part- time workforce. So the actual total gender 90 00:05:27,550 --> 00:05:31,490 Eliza Owen: pay gap is probably much greater than that. That's going to, 91 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:36,450 Eliza Owen: I guess, harm your ability to earn enough savings to 92 00:05:36,450 --> 00:05:39,219 Eliza Owen: build up a deposit because part- time work is compensated 93 00:05:39,220 --> 00:05:43,500 Eliza Owen: less than full- time work. So that's a consideration as well. 94 00:05:44,070 --> 00:05:47,760 Eliza Owen: One thing I would say though, is that housing, because 95 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,870 Eliza Owen: of how expensive it is. We do find that a 96 00:05:50,870 --> 00:05:54,480 Eliza Owen: lot of it comes back to family wealth for first 97 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,130 Eliza Owen: home buyers in particular, if they're getting access to the 98 00:05:57,130 --> 00:05:59,339 Eliza Owen: bank of mum and dad, for example, the bank of 99 00:05:59,339 --> 00:06:02,080 Eliza Owen: mum and dad is much less likely to discriminate in 100 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,060 Eliza Owen: helping out their kids as to whether they're male or 101 00:06:04,070 --> 00:06:08,260 Eliza Owen: female or whatever gender they are. So in a weird way, 102 00:06:08,260 --> 00:06:12,910 Eliza Owen: I think the reliance on assistance getting into the property 103 00:06:12,910 --> 00:06:17,339 Eliza Owen: market takes a little away from gender parity in the 104 00:06:17,339 --> 00:06:20,610 Eliza Owen: housing market and puts a little more on wealth inequality. 105 00:06:20,950 --> 00:06:22,990 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Eliza, we'll be back in a minute. 106 00:06:27,670 --> 00:06:30,339 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is CoreLogic Australia's head of research 107 00:06:30,570 --> 00:06:34,039 Sean Aylmer: Eliza Owen. Okay. So whichever way you look at it, 108 00:06:34,250 --> 00:06:38,419 Sean Aylmer: men are certainly not underrepresented in these categories. So as 109 00:06:38,420 --> 00:06:43,130 Sean Aylmer: a result, women are, which has this wealth effect that you are talking about. And 110 00:06:43,170 --> 00:06:46,599 Sean Aylmer: of course that has massive flow on ... At the beginning, 111 00:06:46,990 --> 00:06:49,540 Sean Aylmer: it comes down to things like childcare and all those 112 00:06:49,540 --> 00:06:53,430 Sean Aylmer: sorts of things that prevent women from necessarily working as much as they 113 00:06:53,430 --> 00:06:57,180 Sean Aylmer: might right through to retirement, having enough money, having a 114 00:06:57,180 --> 00:06:59,140 Sean Aylmer: house to live in when you do retire, kind of 115 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:01,560 Sean Aylmer: the whole of life process and all this. 116 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:06,719 Eliza Owen: Yeah, that's a really good point. So property, residential real 117 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:11,310 Eliza Owen: estate, it's implicitly become more of a part of our 118 00:07:11,370 --> 00:07:15,520 Eliza Owen: retirement strategy, our long term wealth strategy. We know that 119 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:21,950 Eliza Owen: about 56% of Australian household wealth is held in this $ 9. 120 00:07:22,270 --> 00:07:27,000 Eliza Owen: 8 trillion asset. So I think when you have a 121 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:32,580 Eliza Owen: financial system that relies on home ownership to create comfort 122 00:07:32,580 --> 00:07:37,690 Eliza Owen: in retirement, stability of household wealth, that's a problem when 123 00:07:37,690 --> 00:07:42,370 Eliza Owen: home ownership isn't created equal. So as a result, we 124 00:07:42,370 --> 00:07:46,870 Eliza Owen: need to look at policies that can help women, but 125 00:07:46,890 --> 00:07:53,390 Eliza Owen: also other intersections of that and other minorities into home ownership. Or you 126 00:07:53,390 --> 00:07:56,560 Eliza Owen: have to have some kind of safety net for people 127 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,890 Eliza Owen: who are more vulnerable, because as I'm mentioned, this is 128 00:07:59,890 --> 00:08:03,380 Eliza Owen: a snapshot of ownership that we've looked at. And for 129 00:08:03,380 --> 00:08:08,140 Eliza Owen: some women, maybe older women who are dissolving a relationship 130 00:08:08,140 --> 00:08:11,989 Eliza Owen: or have to leave their domestic situation, we need to 131 00:08:11,990 --> 00:08:13,590 Eliza Owen: cater for them as well, and the fact that they 132 00:08:13,590 --> 00:08:16,620 Eliza Owen: probably haven't got as much in their super as their 133 00:08:16,620 --> 00:08:20,370 Eliza Owen: partner and they may not have the same access to 134 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,700 Eliza Owen: ownership of property at an older age as well. 135 00:08:23,730 --> 00:08:27,080 Sean Aylmer: Some of the anecdotes coming out around that cohort of 136 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:32,860 Sean Aylmer: women are really saddening. Is it improving at all, Eliza? 137 00:08:32,860 --> 00:08:35,100 Sean Aylmer: Or have we stagnated on this? 138 00:08:35,730 --> 00:08:39,830 Eliza Owen: Yeah, I think that some of the anecdotes that I've heard and 139 00:08:40,140 --> 00:08:43,700 Eliza Owen: statistics we've seen is that the women over 50 in 140 00:08:43,700 --> 00:08:48,380 Eliza Owen: Australia are the most rapidly growing cohort of people experiencing 141 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:52,620 Eliza Owen: homelessness in this country. And I think that COVID has 142 00:08:52,620 --> 00:08:59,110 Eliza Owen: been quite disruptive to women and their relationship to work, 143 00:08:59,410 --> 00:09:02,050 Eliza Owen: as well as some of the things that we've heard 144 00:09:02,050 --> 00:09:06,290 Eliza Owen: coming out of the pandemic, like women in domestic abusive 145 00:09:06,290 --> 00:09:10,250 Eliza Owen: situations, being coerced to take money out of their super 146 00:09:10,290 --> 00:09:13,990 Eliza Owen: for the household as well. So I think in that 147 00:09:13,990 --> 00:09:19,750 Eliza Owen: sense, the disruption of COVID has probably disproportionately affected women. 148 00:09:20,420 --> 00:09:23,079 Eliza Owen: But I think that at least we are talking about 149 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:26,309 Eliza Owen: it more. We saw, for example, in the last federal 150 00:09:26,309 --> 00:09:29,260 Eliza Owen: budget, the introduction of the Family Home Guarantee, which is 151 00:09:29,260 --> 00:09:33,920 Eliza Owen: a policy that would disproportionately help women because it is 152 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:37,349 Eliza Owen: a policy targeting single parents and women make up most 153 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:42,990 Eliza Owen: single parent households. And yeah, I think that is probably 154 00:09:42,990 --> 00:09:46,160 Eliza Owen: just the best starting point. In the data that we 155 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,760 Eliza Owen: are seeing in this report as well, we note that 156 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:53,490 Eliza Owen: women have had a bit of an uptick in the 157 00:09:53,550 --> 00:09:56,840 Eliza Owen: purchase of property over time. So if we look at 158 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:01,840 Eliza Owen: these property purchases as a snapshot by gender, looking back, 159 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,750 Eliza Owen: women have gradually seen more participation. And as I say, 160 00:10:05,750 --> 00:10:09,110 Eliza Owen: I think a big part of this discrepancy in ownership 161 00:10:09,110 --> 00:10:11,360 Eliza Owen: is probably a legacy of a time where women did 162 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:15,140 Eliza Owen: have lower participation in the workforce. So this time around, 163 00:10:15,260 --> 00:10:18,400 Eliza Owen: as we see new data come through and new purchases 164 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,710 Eliza Owen: come through with women being more empowered, engaged in the 165 00:10:21,710 --> 00:10:25,939 Eliza Owen: workforce, and financially literate, we'll probably continue to see that 166 00:10:26,020 --> 00:10:28,020 Eliza Owen: disparity narrow over time. 167 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,520 Sean Aylmer: Let's hope so. Now, I can't let you go, Eliza, without asking what you 168 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,949 Sean Aylmer: think will happen in the broader property market over the 169 00:10:34,950 --> 00:10:36,180 Sean Aylmer: next 12 months. What's going to happen? 170 00:10:36,660 --> 00:10:40,600 Eliza Owen: Great question. I think that the biggest kind of immediate 171 00:10:40,660 --> 00:10:43,630 Eliza Owen: headwind for the property market is what we've seen in 172 00:10:43,630 --> 00:10:47,900 Eliza Owen: extreme flooding events across the East Coast. There's definitely going 173 00:10:47,900 --> 00:10:51,569 Eliza Owen: to be some disruption to the Brisbane property market in 174 00:10:51,570 --> 00:10:56,819 Eliza Owen: the short term, and for all those affected areas, a 175 00:10:56,820 --> 00:11:02,280 Eliza Owen: decline in demand, amid low lying areas and any properties 176 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:07,010 Eliza Owen: directly affected. But ultimately I would say in the longer 177 00:11:07,020 --> 00:11:10,000 Eliza Owen: term and the broader picture, we're coming off the back 178 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:14,050 Eliza Owen: of a very large upswing where interest rates are likely 179 00:11:14,050 --> 00:11:18,520 Eliza Owen: to start hiking anywhere between midway through this year and early next 180 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,610 Eliza Owen: year. And I think that would put some downward pressure 181 00:11:21,610 --> 00:11:24,700 Eliza Owen: on demand. We've already seen an easing in growth rates and the 182 00:11:25,420 --> 00:11:29,380 Eliza Owen: first decline in the Sydney housing market through Feb since 183 00:11:29,460 --> 00:11:33,880 Eliza Owen: September 2020. So I think we are likely to see a 184 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:37,349 Eliza Owen: continued easing in growth rates with the potential for a 185 00:11:37,350 --> 00:11:41,320 Eliza Owen: fall in prices, and hopefully that will provide an opportunity 186 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,410 Eliza Owen: for those who have been waiting for those prices to come down 187 00:11:44,020 --> 00:11:44,189 Eliza Owen: a bit. 188 00:11:44,660 --> 00:11:46,470 Sean Aylmer: Eliza, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 189 00:11:46,740 --> 00:11:47,321 Eliza Owen: Thanks for having me. 190 00:11:47,321 --> 00:11:51,860 Sean Aylmer: That was Eliza Owen, CoreLogic Australia's head of research. This is 191 00:11:51,860 --> 00:11:54,459 Sean Aylmer: a Fear and Greed Daily Interview. Join me every morning 192 00:11:54,460 --> 00:11:56,400 Sean Aylmer: for the full Fear and Greed podcast, with all the 193 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,440 Sean Aylmer: business news you need to know. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy 194 00:11:59,440 --> 00:11:59,600 Sean Aylmer: your day.