WEBVTT - Episode 10: Mothers 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:04.720 Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains coarse 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:08.840 language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:42.200 you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian. The Dark 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:46.839 Lake Lake Ainsworth, with its eerie looking water stained dark 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:50.320 by tammins from the leaves of the tea trees ringing 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:54.880 the shoreline. It lies just north of Lennox Head's caravan 0:00:55.000 --> 0:00:58.200 park and a short walk from the perfect waves crashing 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:02.240 onto the beach. I've seen a photograph of Bromman sitting 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:05.679 on the grass near here. It was a family outing 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:09.880 with friends. The lake is now an even more popular 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:13.480 place or a picnic and a barbecue. It's a great 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:17.760 swimming hole and for hundreds, probably thousands of years, Indigenous 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:23.400 tribes revered this place for its therapeutic qualities. After childbirth, 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:28.200 Indigenous women bathed here. They believed that the unique qualities 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:31.880 of the fresh water helped prevent infection and helped recover 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:35.720 from it. In the ninth episode, Maddie Walsh talked about 0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:38.000 the possibilities of a search here. 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:43.319 And the police aren't doing anything, so might just have 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:43.920 to be asked. 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:49.000 I don't have a sonar thingy we won't be able 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:49.840 to see anything. 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:53.320 Scooba diving wise, we can do it. 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:54.640 It's entirely possible. 0:01:56.040 --> 0:02:02.080 Mary's offered to help. Oh amazing, and listeners with expertise 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:07.040 in underwater search emailed me and contacted Maddie to volunteer 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:11.480 their help and their equipment. Chris Darcy, who is an 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:15.919 experienced operator of side scan SONA and regularly undertakes on 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:20.079 water searches, offered to come from Sydney with three other volunteers. 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:26.240 Then former Australian Navy Captain Ashley McDonald, a highly trained diver, 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:29.480 got in touch to volunteer to dive on any items 0:02:29.480 --> 0:02:34.200 of interest that might be identified by SONA. With Murray Nolan, 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:38.040 we held a hastily organized zoom call to talk about 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:41.360 what might be possible, at least for starters. 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:43.240 Murray, can you. 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:47.600 Explain the area that you reckon needs to be targeted, 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:51.120 how we'd get access to it, and why you want 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:53.880 to focus on that above everything else. 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:57.320 The life was pretty accessible back in the day, and 0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:00.680 I've got the opinion that he would have dropped her 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:02.920 off on the western side of the lake. A lot 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:05.720 of people say the eastern side was more accessible. I 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:07.760 doubt where we went down the eastern side of the lake. 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:11.200 He could have because it was more accessible, but of 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:13.520 the opinion he went down the western side of the lake. 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:16.880 It meant he would have had to carry her and 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:22.040 whatever he had, probably for about twenty meters, maybe a 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:25.720 bit less. In the last thirty one years, I've planned 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:28.920 it out. They're still planning it out. There's a lot 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:30.680 of more trees on and vegetation there now. 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:35.240 And would you mind just briefly telling Murray about your 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:37.280 expertise and then we can get started. 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:41.960 In that experience, we did lots of searchers, so different 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:46.000 types of searches on the bottom projects, but also searches 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:49.040 in zero visibility on the hulls of ships and so forward. 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:51.760 So a lot of experience and trying to find stuff 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:55.360 when you can't see anything. In more recent times, working 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:59.320 in the maritime industry more generally in Australia, following podcast 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:01.280 with interests and I thought if there was anything I 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:03.480 could do to help with this latest turn of events, 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:04.480 I put my name forward. 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:09.040 That's great thinking back in the eighties and nineties, it's 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:11.320 a windsurf across the lake, go back and forth, back 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:14.880 and forth. There were days when it was pressable to 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:16.680 take off from the western side of the lake. So 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:18.760 I'm saying that he wouldn't have much of a problem. 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:21.800 To carry everything he had to carry down on that 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:22.800 western side of the lake. 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:25.800 Does it drop off or is it still reasonably show 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:30.640 it drops off? Yeah, okay, so it changes in different places. 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:34.479 It's undulating, so it goes up and down, up and down. 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:37.080 For some strange reason, I could stand up in different 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:38.120 places in the middle of the lake. 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:43.520 Here is Chris. He's president of Search Dog Sydney, the 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:47.440 name of his group. Before the core, Chris and Ash 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:50.320 had been reading a scientific study of the lake from 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:55.480 nineteen ninety six. That study looked into the lake's physical, hydraulic, 0:04:55.600 --> 0:05:00.719 and sedimentary processes, among other things. Maddie found it on line. 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:03.839 It did show on the hydrology report that there was 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:07.120 a sandbar from one of another word, yes, exactly cut 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:11.400 across it. I'll work it on that deep area. 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:14.560 And I was at the opinion that John's dragged her out, 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:17.720 And I'm sort of thinking that he's actually grabbed the 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:19.240 nose of the board or the leg rape of the 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:22.320 board and dragged her out so far. And then when 0:05:22.320 --> 0:05:25.040 he hasn't had footing, he would have just give him 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:26.920 her a shove and tipped her house on. Well, the opinion, 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:28.479 she's not that far off the shore. 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:31.600 I'll get the mapping and all of that done and 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:33.400 then we can go from there. You can tell me 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:35.839 if it's covering the area that you've got in mind. 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:39.799 Beautiful, Yes, If she's not there, she could be anywhere 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:41.240 really in that lake somewhere. 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:43.560 I don't only have a picture of how many branches 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:46.440 or logs would have fallen into the water and sunk 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:47.640 to the bottom. 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:50.640 The vegetation around it is only just tea tree like 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:54.600 paper back trees, so they ain't growing real high. They 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:57.640 hang in there. So I've never hit any card in 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:00.000 the lake. It's, you know, like a big tree bread. 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:02.720 There's seats of little branches. 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:06.000 And in your memory, has the lake ever try it 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:09.320 out significantly so that the areas that we might serve 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:10.560 a bit have been exposed. 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:13.800 The level of the lake doesn't bury that much in 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:18.480 dry times. It seems to be fed from underground water. 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:21.320 There's all these little two tree lakes and they all 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:24.480 feed into Lake Ainsworth, and so the level of the 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:26.760 water stays the same most of the time, unless it's 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:27.359 really raining. 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:32.520 It's very very helpful if we want to interrogate items 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:35.760 of interest as we go, how to diver and stand 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:37.560 by and go right over. We just found something, let's 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:39.560 go back over it, drop a shot and go down 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:41.360 and have a look, come back up and then go again. 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:45.279 As soon as we spot an object. I think we 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:46.599 should have all of it straight away. 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:53.520 Yeah, what is your recollection of the bag that was 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:56.159 utilized back in the day that you believe was utilized. 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:58.640 Did you ever see that bag? Did you ever see 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:00.880 other bags on different days? 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:04.279 Well, they had multiple bags, but was that that transition 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:07.240 period where people going into polypant bags or zippers on them. 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:11.200 Maury's view about the lake is not just based on 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:14.640 the fact that Judy Singh witnessed the surfboard in the 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:19.240 car late at night. It's also that he was driving 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:23.360 north along Granite Street from his house and that was 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:25.240 a bit of a tell, along with the fact that 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:29.920 the lake is secluded. It's easy to access if you 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:30.800 know your way around. 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:33.160 He used to go to the lake only you take 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:35.800 the kids down the lake someday afternoons, we're all getting 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:38.080 above due down the lake. It's like a bit of 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:39.080 a ritual sort of thing. 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:44.760 In nineteen ninety three, when Bromwin disappeared, the beach facing 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:48.520 caravan park of Lennox Head was mostly for permanent van 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:52.520 owners who lived there. John and his second wife we've 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:56.040 called her D were caravan park residents for a short 0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:59.600 time while they were building in Sandstone Crescent. But that 0:07:59.720 --> 0:08:02.640 was the first house, the one that came before the 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:06.080 one John built higher up the street, the one in 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:08.880 which Bronwan was last seen by John. 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:13.160 Back in those days, there wasn't that many tourists at 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:14.720 that end of the park. There was a lot of 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:18.239 residents there. We would have been pretty isolated there. 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:20.520 Well, that allows me a good search area. 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:24.560 That's Murray's sailings. You're good to interrogate things as we 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:27.560 find them if it's a fairly clean butter. 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:31.600 So actually mark the spots as we're going. I'll be 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:34.160 try and get there early on Friday afternoon so I 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:35.600 can have a look at the place and. 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:38.160 And get a feel for it. 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:41.120 Just finalize any mapping that needs to be done prior 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:42.240 to the Saturday morning. 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:45.960 Okay, I'll come down Friday afternoon as well with a 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:49.199 colleague called Sean, who probably put a drone up. He's 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:51.720 already checked open skies and it should be fine for 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:57.360 drone flying. Maddie Walsh will come into Brisbane and drive 0:08:57.400 --> 0:09:01.000 down with us too, and food beverages are on me 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:02.160 for the weekend. 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:04.600 So I'm looking forward to seeing how all you guys 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:05.000 on the weekend. 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:06.360 It'll be good Rave. 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:09.280 Yeah, it's always nice to have local knowledge. It makes 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:11.000 a hell of a difference when you're doing something, so 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:11.760 appreciate it. 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:16.560 Later in this episode, you'll hear more about the Dark 0:09:16.640 --> 0:09:19.720 Lake and our visit to Lennox Head to comb some 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:22.480 of the lake bed with the help of Sona and 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:28.440 some brilliant volunteers Chris Darcy, his wife Adele, their assistant Jody, 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:34.880 Captain Ash McDonald, Murray Nolan, Maddie Walsh, Deb Hall and others, 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:38.760 even Scruffy who came to help. But first I want 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:42.520 to bring everyone up to speed. As you know, this 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:46.600 is episode ten of Bromwin and when the podcast investigation 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:49.560 started I believe that it would be a total of 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:54.560 six to eight episodes. Something remarkable has happened during the 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:59.479 eight weeks we've been releasing weekly episodes. We've been deluged 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:03.160 with him from from members of the public. We've discovered 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:07.800 more from our own investigations. Friends and acquaintances of Bronwyn 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:11.880 and John have been sharing a lot too, and of 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:16.240 course remarkable witnesses such as Judy Singh have come forward 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:20.720 with what we believe is a crucial observation. Hundreds of 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:25.719 listeners have contacted me, mostly via Bronwyn at the Australian 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:29.640 dot com dot au, with information, and some of it 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:35.120 is we believe very significant. Our Facebook group, the Bromwyn 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:40.439 Podcast Official Discussion Group, has become a lively exercise in crowdsolving, 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:45.440 with listeners constructively putting together maps and timelines to try 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:49.240 to work out what might have happened. I've been helped 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:53.080 by some of their very relevant questions and analysis of 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:57.520 the evidence. As a result, the narrative arc of the 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:02.640 Bromwyn series has changed fununda mentally. In the beginning, I 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:06.840 believe that episode six and seven would have been dedicated 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:11.040 to reconstructing the evidence from the two thousand and two inquest, 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:14.479 which was held in the courthouse in the town of Lismore. 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.280 And we've been to the courthouse, but we haven't yet 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:22.440 touched on the evidence at that inquest. That's because of 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:25.320 all the other material coming in that needs to come 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:29.600 before the inquest. As a result, it is going to 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:35.280 feature in season two of Bromwin. After this the tenth episode, 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:40.480 we are going to pause production for several weeks. Everyone 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:43.200 can catch up while we have a rest and look 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:47.320 at some of the leads we haven't had time to pursue. 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:51.600 We'll come back with more episodes. One of the key 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:56.840 reasons this investigative podcast began was because I believe Bromwin's 0:11:56.840 --> 0:12:01.720 disappearance and alleged murder could still be sold. This belief 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:06.480 has only grown stronger as the series has unfolded. You 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:10.160 can still stay abreast of the latest developments by joining 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:15.880 the Australian subscribers at bronwynpodcast dot com. That's where all 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:22.120 our stories, graphics, maps, timelines, reconstructions and videos sit, and 0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:26.200 our daily news podcast, The Front, will bring any significant 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:30.000 updates as soon as they happen. You can find The 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:33.760 Front wherever you listen. And if you know something, no 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:37.760 matter how small it seems, please still contact me by 0:12:37.840 --> 0:13:01.640 email at Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au. 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:09.480 That'll be fine now, a little break for a few 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:13.120 weeks and everyone will see the old May look Out. 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:17.720 You heard this hopeful line in the first episode featuring 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:21.280 some of Bromwin's writing from the weeks before she disappeared, 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:25.240 And it is very likely that Bromwin's reference to a 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:29.040 little break lent credence to John's story that she had 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:33.880 indeed gone away for a break. Bromwin's brother Andy, his 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:38.280 wife Michelle, and Bromwin's cousin Megan Reid say that John 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:41.800 was insistent Bromwyn had said she was going away for 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:44.800 a break of a few days, not a few weeks. 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:48.640 Here's Meghan recalling John having shown her a piece of 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:51.960 paper when he dropped by in Sydney, and it was 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:56.520 during the visit in May. John was showing Megan some 0:13:56.600 --> 0:14:01.440 of Bromwin's writings. Remind me, what was the point of 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:02.600 the piece of paper? 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:06.400 Well, I didn't know. This is the whole thing. I 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:10.000 had no idea. Why show me this piece of paper? 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:13.240 It had members of the family and sort of stuff 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:16.280 going back to our childhood. But that same piece of 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:18.760 paper I've now found out he showed to a whole 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:21.240 lot of other people, claiming that she left that as 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:22.480 a note that she was leaving. 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:25.000 But to me, I didn't say that at all. 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:31.040 Kim Marshall has always had concerns about this too. Kim 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:34.120 was a young woman living at home in Tasmania when 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:39.120 Bromwyn disappeared. Kim remembered a lot of telephone contact with 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:43.120 Bromwin and Kim and their mother Barbara in Tasmania in 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:47.320 the weeks leading up to and during Broman's separation from John. 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:52.640 Here's Kim from the very first episode in this podcast series. 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:54.800 The story that she was writing. 0:14:55.360 --> 0:15:00.800 They've got the wrong idea about what's actually happened. Bromwn 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:06.000 wrote a beautiful story of her history, okay, and then 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:09.680 she says, when I come back, the real Bromwen will 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:13.320 be back, so watch out. And John has used that 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:18.000 paragraph to say that Bromwin has lost her marbles and 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:21.840 has actually decided to act on what she was writing. 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:27.240 And he goes, she's unstable, she's like a mother, blah 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:28.080 blah blah. 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:33.240 Now Bromwin and Kim's Auntie Jan can shed light for 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:36.640 the first time on what Bromwin was talking about when 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:39.920 she wrote a little break for a few weeks and 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:44.720 everyone will see the old me. You are Barbara's younger sister. 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:46.760 Is that right? Yes? 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:51.080 Yeah, Mab was born in thirty nine and I was 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:52.080 born in forty two. 0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:58.760 I telephoned to ask her about your recollections of something 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:02.080 Bromin might have been planning to do around the time 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:03.280 she disappeared. Is that right? 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:09.360 She had rung a couple of times feeling distressed, and 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:13.080 then she rang Mum and asked her for some money. 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:16.400 And it wasn't long after that that she disappeared. 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:22.200 Do you have any letters from your mom or your 0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:23.800 sister which talk about Bromwin. 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:27.840 No, we used to ring all the time. 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:33.640 I want to just focus on whether you heard from 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:39.120 either your mother or from your sister Barb of any 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:44.040 plans by Bromwin to have a break in Tasmania for 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:44.520 a while. 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:46.560 That was a plan. 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:52.600 She didn't eventually come because that's when she disappeared, right, 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:56.400 Mum was waiting for her to ring and tell her 0:16:57.000 --> 0:17:02.160 when she was coming over, and we didn't hear from her. 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:04.480 And how do you remember that? 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:08.760 Because Mum rang and told me she said, ron Wan's 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:11.359 in a spot of trouble and what was going on 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:15.160 and everything was Brd lived with Mum most of her life. 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:18.920 She wanted some money, but Mum said to come over 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:24.359 to her first before she did anything, but then we 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:28.920 never heard from her after that. It was only weeks 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:36.160 after that phone call to mum, my mum. 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:36.520 And is that a fairly clear memory for you? 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:37.960 Yes? 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:40.880 Have you talked to the police before. 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:47.920 No, Nobody's contacted me at all regarding ron Win's disappearance 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:48.520 except you. 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:54.640 One of the things that is written down by Bromwan 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:58.240 in these papers that she wrote before she disappeared was 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:01.760 that she was going to make a break and that 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:04.080 she'd be coming back and should be fine. 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:10.080 Well, that's probably when she was going to Mums to Hobart. 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:15.359 Before she rang mum, she'd spoken to barb a couple 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:19.119 of times regarding what was going on, and Barbara was 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:21.320 quite distressed about it, and. 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:24.520 Then she rang mum and then asked her for some money. 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:28.720 That the plan was, according to my mum, that she 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:31.399 was coming over to Hobart. 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:35.920 Jan told me that Barbara had been visited by Bromwin 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:39.000 and her brother Andy in Tasmania before. 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:42.840 And I know Bronwin and Andrew used to go over 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:45.359 to Hobart because I've got pictures of them here. I 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:47.800 can send them to you if you like. They went 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:51.119 over a few times to visit Barb. I think they 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:51.840 flew over. 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:56.280 How have you become aware of this renewed interest? 0:18:56.800 --> 0:18:58.280 Well, Kim contacted me. 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:03.280 She said she's never going to give up. I don't 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:03.880 really know. 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:10.119 Whether it was investigated enough whatever. John said, they seemed 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:12.760 to have taken to heart and said that's it. 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:16.960 A lot more could have been done. Soon after that, 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:18.280 it just died down. 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:23.240 I spoke to Bromwan's half sister Kim about it. 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:27.879 I actually have been going on about a trip to 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:30.320 Tasmania and no one's ever listened to me. 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:34.159 For people who don't know the potential significance, what do 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:35.359 you believe it could be? 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:37.480 John stole her trip? 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:41.879 So the last paragraph in Bronnie's writing on the notepad 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:44.439 is I will be going away for a while for 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:47.639 a break, and when I come back, watch out the 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:48.280 real broblem. 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:48.720 We're back. 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:53.479 So then I'm thinking nan Ant set airlines, nan making 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:58.119 the phone calls, getting everything in order. Nan is my grandmother. 0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:01.240 My grandmother raised me. So I lived with my nan 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:05.080 and my mum Barbara and then Annie. Jan lived in 0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:09.960 New South Wales because we traveled every holidays to the mainland, 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:13.160 and nan Stone sat next to her chair and that's 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:14.440 where she did her business. 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:17.400 And I remember Nan offering airfares. 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:21.000 Let's do airfares, Let's get you down here, will work 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:24.439 out everything legally that you've got in place, will do it, 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:25.800 but you need to get safe. 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:29.200 And my mom's not alive to tell you, and no 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:32.720 one was interested in listening to her when she tried. 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:35.480 But your Auntie Jan remembers this. 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:40.840 My mom spent years talking and crying and writing letters 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:45.520 and debriefing and reflecting about the fact that Bronwin never 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:46.600 got to Tasmania. 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:48.840 And that's why I. 0:20:48.800 --> 0:20:53.919 Have so many troubles with my brother, because my brother 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:58.359 never listens to me scream about Bronwin was actually coming 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:01.400 for a holiday. That's what I was trying to explain 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:04.760 to him and the police way back in June. 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:05.560 Nineteen ninety three. 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:10.400 And that's why I'm so emotional about everything, because no one. 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:13.639 Ever listened to me, and I was there in the 0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:17.280 rooms listening to all these phone calls, and then no 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:20.560 one ever was interested in mums and my phone bill, 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:23.399 which had all the phone calls that we were making 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:27.600 to bron When every day and of the night, because 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:30.280 we're the ones that hurt John banging on the door. 0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:33.720 We're the ones that heard him saying open the door 0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:34.440 and let me in. 0:21:37.200 --> 0:21:39.719 So I'm sorry heavily, but that's the truth. 0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:46.680 And I've probably got nothing to do with anything. 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:49.680 But I've got Brown's voice being heard now. 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:55.520 The great Russian author Leo Tolstoy's famous book from eighteen 0:21:55.680 --> 0:22:00.959 seventy seven, Anna karen Ina, starts with this sentence, happy 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:06.520 families are all alike. Every unhappy family is unhappy in 0:22:06.600 --> 0:22:11.400 its own way. In Tolstoy's view, a pathway to family 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:18.440 happiness depends on important pillars, stability, respect, health, and unconditional 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:22.600 love being some of the main ones. In this series, 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:26.200 you have heard about a myriad of tensions, hurts, and 0:22:26.280 --> 0:22:31.000 grievances in the Reed family. Given everything that they've been 0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:37.400 through before and since Bromwin's disappearance, it is unsurprising. Remember, 0:22:37.960 --> 0:22:41.800 Bromwin and Andrew did not know until they were twelve 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:45.879 and ten, respectively, that they even had a biological mother 0:22:46.040 --> 0:22:51.400 called Barbara. Andy and Bronwyn's father, Philip is not around 0:22:51.400 --> 0:22:54.520 to say why he didn't tell his children about the 0:22:54.640 --> 0:22:59.560 existence of Barbara when they were little. Andy still calls 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:04.399 his father's second wife Jennifer Mum, because, as he says, 0:23:04.720 --> 0:23:09.160 she raised him. He refers to his biological mother as 0:23:09.200 --> 0:23:14.760 Barbara and sometimes as Mum. After dozens of hours talking 0:23:14.800 --> 0:23:19.919 to Barbara's two surviving children, Andy and Kim, I believe 0:23:19.960 --> 0:23:23.359 that Kim has sought to honor two people in this podcast. 0:23:24.400 --> 0:23:28.960 Kim has honored her half sister Bromwin, and Kim has 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:33.720 also honored her mother, Barbara. Kim tells me that she 0:23:33.960 --> 0:23:37.359 has often felt like the sibling who didn't quite belong 0:23:38.280 --> 0:23:42.520 and that despite Andy having been kind and loving towards 0:23:42.520 --> 0:23:46.639 his mother Barbara and having included her and Kim in 0:23:46.800 --> 0:23:51.879 family events and visits, there's still been a distance, a 0:23:51.960 --> 0:23:55.760 bridge that hasn't been properly built with the foundations. Leo 0:23:55.880 --> 0:23:57.480 Tolstoy was thinking. 0:23:57.160 --> 0:24:01.359 About as far as I knew, if it was Mum, 0:24:01.400 --> 0:24:04.240 and it was only once that Mum was sort of 0:24:04.280 --> 0:24:06.679 allowed or going to agreed to allow. 0:24:06.520 --> 0:24:10.359 Mom back to our lives at me. You actually didn't 0:24:10.400 --> 0:24:13.800 know you had a mum other than Jennifer exactly. 0:24:14.119 --> 0:24:18.800 Yeah, Yeah, I was never told anything really about it. 0:24:20.119 --> 0:24:25.800 You reconnected with your mum when you were still a boy, 0:24:26.480 --> 0:24:27.840 What do you remember being told? 0:24:29.280 --> 0:24:32.399 Well, she wants to get back in touch, and Dad 0:24:32.440 --> 0:24:35.600 thought we were old enough to allow that to happen. 0:24:36.480 --> 0:24:38.199 She was always sort of up and down a bit, 0:24:38.359 --> 0:24:41.600 so you weren't sure which Barbie were going to get. 0:24:42.160 --> 0:24:44.399 In a way, it probably was the start of a 0:24:44.440 --> 0:24:47.640