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Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains coarse

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Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to

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Speaker 1: you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian. The Dark

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Speaker 1: Lake Lake Ainsworth, with its eerie looking water stained dark

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Speaker 1: by tammins from the leaves of the tea trees ringing

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Speaker 1: the shoreline. It lies just north of Lennox Head's caravan

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Speaker 1: park and a short walk from the perfect waves crashing

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Speaker 1: onto the beach. I've seen a photograph of Bromman sitting

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Speaker 1: on the grass near here. It was a family outing

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Speaker 1: with friends. The lake is now an even more popular

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Speaker 1: place or a picnic and a barbecue. It's a great

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Speaker 1: swimming hole and for hundreds, probably thousands of years, Indigenous

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Speaker 1: tribes revered this place for its therapeutic qualities. After childbirth,

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Speaker 1: Indigenous women bathed here. They believed that the unique qualities

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Speaker 1: of the fresh water helped prevent infection and helped recover

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Speaker 1: from it. In the ninth episode, Maddie Walsh talked about

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Speaker 1: the possibilities of a search here.

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Speaker 2: And the police aren't doing anything, so might just have

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Speaker 2: to be asked.

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Speaker 3: I don't have a sonar thingy we won't be able

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Speaker 3: to see anything.

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Speaker 4: Scooba diving wise, we can do it.

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Speaker 5: It's entirely possible.

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Speaker 1: Mary's offered to help. Oh amazing, and listeners with expertise

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Speaker 1: in underwater search emailed me and contacted Maddie to volunteer

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Speaker 1: their help and their equipment. Chris Darcy, who is an

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Speaker 1: experienced operator of side scan SONA and regularly undertakes on

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Speaker 1: water searches, offered to come from Sydney with three other volunteers.

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Speaker 1: Then former Australian Navy Captain Ashley McDonald, a highly trained diver,

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Speaker 1: got in touch to volunteer to dive on any items

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Speaker 1: of interest that might be identified by SONA. With Murray Nolan,

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Speaker 1: we held a hastily organized zoom call to talk about

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Speaker 1: what might be possible, at least for starters.

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Speaker 6: Murray, can you.

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Speaker 1: Explain the area that you reckon needs to be targeted,

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Speaker 1: how we'd get access to it, and why you want

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Speaker 1: to focus on that above everything else.

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Speaker 7: The life was pretty accessible back in the day, and

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Speaker 7: I've got the opinion that he would have dropped her

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Speaker 7: off on the western side of the lake. A lot

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Speaker 7: of people say the eastern side was more accessible. I

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Speaker 7: doubt where we went down the eastern side of the lake.

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Speaker 7: He could have because it was more accessible, but of

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Speaker 7: the opinion he went down the western side of the lake.

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Speaker 7: It meant he would have had to carry her and

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Speaker 7: whatever he had, probably for about twenty meters, maybe a

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Speaker 7: bit less. In the last thirty one years, I've planned

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Speaker 7: it out. They're still planning it out. There's a lot

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Speaker 7: of more trees on and vegetation there now.

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Speaker 1: And would you mind just briefly telling Murray about your

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Speaker 1: expertise and then we can get started.

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Speaker 6: In that experience, we did lots of searchers, so different

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Speaker 6: types of searches on the bottom projects, but also searches

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Speaker 6: in zero visibility on the hulls of ships and so forward.

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Speaker 6: So a lot of experience and trying to find stuff

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Speaker 6: when you can't see anything. In more recent times, working

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Speaker 6: in the maritime industry more generally in Australia, following podcast

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Speaker 6: with interests and I thought if there was anything I

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Speaker 6: could do to help with this latest turn of events,

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Speaker 6: I put my name forward.

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Speaker 8: That's great thinking back in the eighties and nineties, it's

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Speaker 8: a windsurf across the lake, go back and forth, back

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Speaker 8: and forth. There were days when it was pressable to

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Speaker 8: take off from the western side of the lake. So

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Speaker 8: I'm saying that he wouldn't have much of a problem.

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Speaker 7: To carry everything he had to carry down on that

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Speaker 7: western side of the lake.

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Speaker 9: Does it drop off or is it still reasonably show

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Speaker 9: it drops off? Yeah, okay, so it changes in different places.

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Speaker 9: It's undulating, so it goes up and down, up and down.

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Speaker 9: For some strange reason, I could stand up in different

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Speaker 9: places in the middle of the lake.

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Speaker 1: Here is Chris. He's president of Search Dog Sydney, the

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Speaker 1: name of his group. Before the core, Chris and Ash

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Speaker 1: had been reading a scientific study of the lake from

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six. That study looked into the lake's physical, hydraulic,

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Speaker 1: and sedimentary processes, among other things. Maddie found it on line.

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Speaker 10: It did show on the hydrology report that there was

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Speaker 10: a sandbar from one of another word, yes, exactly cut

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Speaker 10: across it. I'll work it on that deep area.

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Speaker 7: And I was at the opinion that John's dragged her out,

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Speaker 7: And I'm sort of thinking that he's actually grabbed the

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Speaker 7: nose of the board or the leg rape of the

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Speaker 7: board and dragged her out so far. And then when

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Speaker 7: he hasn't had footing, he would have just give him

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Speaker 7: her a shove and tipped her house on. Well, the opinion,

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Speaker 7: she's not that far off the shore.

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Speaker 10: I'll get the mapping and all of that done and

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Speaker 10: then we can go from there. You can tell me

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Speaker 10: if it's covering the area that you've got in mind.

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Speaker 7: Beautiful, Yes, If she's not there, she could be anywhere

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Speaker 7: really in that lake somewhere.

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Speaker 6: I don't only have a picture of how many branches

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Speaker 6: or logs would have fallen into the water and sunk

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Speaker 6: to the bottom.

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Speaker 7: The vegetation around it is only just tea tree like

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Speaker 7: paper back trees, so they ain't growing real high. They

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Speaker 7: hang in there. So I've never hit any card in

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Speaker 7: the lake. It's, you know, like a big tree bread.

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Speaker 7: There's seats of little branches.

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Speaker 1: And in your memory, has the lake ever try it

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Speaker 1: out significantly so that the areas that we might serve

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Speaker 1: a bit have been exposed.

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Speaker 7: The level of the lake doesn't bury that much in

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Speaker 7: dry times. It seems to be fed from underground water.

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Speaker 7: There's all these little two tree lakes and they all

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Speaker 7: feed into Lake Ainsworth, and so the level of the

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Speaker 7: water stays the same most of the time, unless it's

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Speaker 7: really raining.

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Speaker 6: It's very very helpful if we want to interrogate items

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Speaker 6: of interest as we go, how to diver and stand

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Speaker 6: by and go right over. We just found something, let's

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Speaker 6: go back over it, drop a shot and go down

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Speaker 6: and have a look, come back up and then go again.

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Speaker 7: As soon as we spot an object. I think we

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Speaker 7: should have all of it straight away.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, what is your recollection of the bag that was

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Speaker 10: utilized back in the day that you believe was utilized.

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Speaker 10: Did you ever see that bag? Did you ever see

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Speaker 10: other bags on different days?

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Speaker 7: Well, they had multiple bags, but was that that transition

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Speaker 7: period where people going into polypant bags or zippers on them.

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Speaker 1: Maury's view about the lake is not just based on

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Speaker 1: the fact that Judy Singh witnessed the surfboard in the

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Speaker 1: car late at night. It's also that he was driving

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Speaker 1: north along Granite Street from his house and that was

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Speaker 1: a bit of a tell, along with the fact that

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Speaker 1: the lake is secluded. It's easy to access if you

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Speaker 1: know your way around.

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Speaker 7: He used to go to the lake only you take

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Speaker 7: the kids down the lake someday afternoons, we're all getting

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Speaker 7: above due down the lake. It's like a bit of

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Speaker 7: a ritual sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety three, when Bromwin disappeared, the beach facing

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Speaker 1: caravan park of Lennox Head was mostly for permanent van

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Speaker 1: owners who lived there. John and his second wife we've

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Speaker 1: called her D were caravan park residents for a short

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Speaker 1: time while they were building in Sandstone Crescent. But that

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Speaker 1: was the first house, the one that came before the

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Speaker 1: one John built higher up the street, the one in

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Speaker 1: which Bronwan was last seen by John.

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Speaker 7: Back in those days, there wasn't that many tourists at

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Speaker 7: that end of the park. There was a lot of

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Speaker 7: residents there. We would have been pretty isolated there.

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Speaker 10: Well, that allows me a good search area.

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Speaker 6: That's Murray's sailings. You're good to interrogate things as we

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Speaker 6: find them if it's a fairly clean butter.

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Speaker 10: So actually mark the spots as we're going. I'll be

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Speaker 10: try and get there early on Friday afternoon so I

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Speaker 10: can have a look at the place and.

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Speaker 1: And get a feel for it.

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Speaker 10: Just finalize any mapping that needs to be done prior

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Speaker 10: to the Saturday morning.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I'll come down Friday afternoon as well with a

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Speaker 1: colleague called Sean, who probably put a drone up. He's

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Speaker 1: already checked open skies and it should be fine for

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Speaker 1: drone flying. Maddie Walsh will come into Brisbane and drive

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Speaker 1: down with us too, and food beverages are on me

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Speaker 1: for the weekend.

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Speaker 7: So I'm looking forward to seeing how all you guys

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Speaker 7: on the weekend.

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Speaker 1: It'll be good Rave.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, it's always nice to have local knowledge. It makes

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Speaker 10: a hell of a difference when you're doing something, so

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Speaker 10: appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: Later in this episode, you'll hear more about the Dark

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Speaker 1: Lake and our visit to Lennox Head to comb some

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Speaker 1: of the lake bed with the help of Sona and

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Speaker 1: some brilliant volunteers Chris Darcy, his wife Adele, their assistant Jody,

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Speaker 1: Captain Ash McDonald, Murray Nolan, Maddie Walsh, Deb Hall and others,

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Speaker 1: even Scruffy who came to help. But first I want

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Speaker 1: to bring everyone up to speed. As you know, this

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Speaker 1: is episode ten of Bromwin and when the podcast investigation

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Speaker 1: started I believe that it would be a total of

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Speaker 1: six to eight episodes. Something remarkable has happened during the

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Speaker 1: eight weeks we've been releasing weekly episodes. We've been deluged

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Speaker 1: with him from from members of the public. We've discovered

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Speaker 1: more from our own investigations. Friends and acquaintances of Bronwyn

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Speaker 1: and John have been sharing a lot too, and of

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Speaker 1: course remarkable witnesses such as Judy Singh have come forward

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Speaker 1: with what we believe is a crucial observation. Hundreds of

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Speaker 1: listeners have contacted me, mostly via Bronwyn at the Australian

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Speaker 1: dot com dot au, with information, and some of it

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Speaker 1: is we believe very significant. Our Facebook group, the Bromwyn

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Speaker 1: Podcast Official Discussion Group, has become a lively exercise in crowdsolving,

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Speaker 1: with listeners constructively putting together maps and timelines to try

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Speaker 1: to work out what might have happened. I've been helped

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Speaker 1: by some of their very relevant questions and analysis of

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Speaker 1: the evidence. As a result, the narrative arc of the

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Speaker 1: Bromwyn series has changed fununda mentally. In the beginning, I

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Speaker 1: believe that episode six and seven would have been dedicated

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Speaker 1: to reconstructing the evidence from the two thousand and two inquest,

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Speaker 1: which was held in the courthouse in the town of Lismore.

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Speaker 1: And we've been to the courthouse, but we haven't yet

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Speaker 1: touched on the evidence at that inquest. That's because of

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Speaker 1: all the other material coming in that needs to come

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Speaker 1: before the inquest. As a result, it is going to

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Speaker 1: feature in season two of Bromwin. After this the tenth episode,

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Speaker 1: we are going to pause production for several weeks. Everyone

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Speaker 1: can catch up while we have a rest and look

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Speaker 1: at some of the leads we haven't had time to pursue.

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Speaker 1: We'll come back with more episodes. One of the key

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Speaker 1: reasons this investigative podcast began was because I believe Bromwin's

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Speaker 1: disappearance and alleged murder could still be sold. This belief

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Speaker 1: has only grown stronger as the series has unfolded. You

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Speaker 1: can still stay abreast of the latest developments by joining

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Speaker 1: the Australian subscribers at bronwynpodcast dot com. That's where all

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Speaker 1: our stories, graphics, maps, timelines, reconstructions and videos sit, and

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Speaker 1: our daily news podcast, The Front, will bring any significant

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Speaker 1: updates as soon as they happen. You can find The

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Speaker 1: Front wherever you listen. And if you know something, no

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Speaker 1: matter how small it seems, please still contact me by

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Speaker 1: email at Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.

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Speaker 11: That'll be fine now, a little break for a few

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Speaker 11: weeks and everyone will see the old May look Out.

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Speaker 1: You heard this hopeful line in the first episode featuring

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Speaker 1: some of Bromwin's writing from the weeks before she disappeared,

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Speaker 1: And it is very likely that Bromwin's reference to a

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Speaker 1: little break lent credence to John's story that she had

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Speaker 1: indeed gone away for a break. Bromwin's brother Andy, his

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Speaker 1: wife Michelle, and Bromwin's cousin Megan Reid say that John

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Speaker 1: was insistent Bromwyn had said she was going away for

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Speaker 1: a break of a few days, not a few weeks.

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Speaker 1: Here's Meghan recalling John having shown her a piece of

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Speaker 1: paper when he dropped by in Sydney, and it was

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Speaker 1: during the visit in May. John was showing Megan some

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Speaker 1: of Bromwin's writings. Remind me, what was the point of

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Speaker 1: the piece of paper?

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Speaker 5: Well, I didn't know. This is the whole thing. I

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Speaker 5: had no idea. Why show me this piece of paper?

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Speaker 12: It had members of the family and sort of stuff

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Speaker 12: going back to our childhood. But that same piece of

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Speaker 12: paper I've now found out he showed to a whole

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Speaker 12: lot of other people, claiming that she left that as

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Speaker 12: a note that she was leaving.

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Speaker 13: But to me, I didn't say that at all.

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Speaker 1: Kim Marshall has always had concerns about this too. Kim

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Speaker 1: was a young woman living at home in Tasmania when

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Speaker 1: Bromwyn disappeared. Kim remembered a lot of telephone contact with

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Speaker 1: Bromwin and Kim and their mother Barbara in Tasmania in

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Speaker 1: the weeks leading up to and during Broman's separation from John.

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Speaker 1: Here's Kim from the very first episode in this podcast series.

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Speaker 4: The story that she was writing.

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Speaker 14: They've got the wrong idea about what's actually happened. Bromwn

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Speaker 14: wrote a beautiful story of her history, okay, and then

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Speaker 14: she says, when I come back, the real Bromwen will

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Speaker 14: be back, so watch out. And John has used that

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Speaker 14: paragraph to say that Bromwin has lost her marbles and

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Speaker 14: has actually decided to act on what she was writing.

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Speaker 14: And he goes, she's unstable, she's like a mother, blah

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Speaker 14: blah blah.

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Speaker 1: Now Bromwin and Kim's Auntie Jan can shed light for

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Speaker 1: the first time on what Bromwin was talking about when

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Speaker 1: she wrote a little break for a few weeks and

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Speaker 1: everyone will see the old me. You are Barbara's younger sister.

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Speaker 1: Is that right? Yes?

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Speaker 15: Yeah, Mab was born in thirty nine and I was

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Speaker 15: born in forty two.

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Speaker 1: I telephoned to ask her about your recollections of something

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Speaker 1: Bromin might have been planning to do around the time

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Speaker 1: she disappeared. Is that right?

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Speaker 15: She had rung a couple of times feeling distressed, and

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Speaker 15: then she rang Mum and asked her for some money.

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Speaker 15: And it wasn't long after that that she disappeared.

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Speaker 1: Do you have any letters from your mom or your

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Speaker 1: sister which talk about Bromwin.

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Speaker 2: No, we used to ring all the time.

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Speaker 1: I want to just focus on whether you heard from

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Speaker 1: either your mother or from your sister Barb of any

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Speaker 1: plans by Bromwin to have a break in Tasmania for

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Speaker 1: a while.

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Speaker 2: That was a plan.

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Speaker 15: She didn't eventually come because that's when she disappeared, right,

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Speaker 15: Mum was waiting for her to ring and tell her

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Speaker 15: when she was coming over, and we didn't hear from her.

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Speaker 1: And how do you remember that?

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Speaker 15: Because Mum rang and told me she said, ron Wan's

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Speaker 15: in a spot of trouble and what was going on

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Speaker 15: and everything was Brd lived with Mum most of her life.

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Speaker 15: She wanted some money, but Mum said to come over

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Speaker 15: to her first before she did anything, but then we

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Speaker 15: never heard from her after that. It was only weeks

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Speaker 15: after that phone call to mum, my mum.

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Speaker 1: And is that a fairly clear memory for you?

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Speaker 16: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Have you talked to the police before.

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Speaker 15: No, Nobody's contacted me at all regarding ron Win's disappearance

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Speaker 15: except you.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that is written down by Bromwan

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Speaker 1: in these papers that she wrote before she disappeared was

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Speaker 1: that she was going to make a break and that

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Speaker 1: she'd be coming back and should be fine.

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Speaker 15: Well, that's probably when she was going to Mums to Hobart.

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Speaker 15: Before she rang mum, she'd spoken to barb a couple

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Speaker 15: of times regarding what was going on, and Barbara was

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Speaker 15: quite distressed about it, and.

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Speaker 4: Then she rang mum and then asked her for some money.

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Speaker 15: That the plan was, according to my mum, that she

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Speaker 15: was coming over to Hobart.

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Speaker 1: Jan told me that Barbara had been visited by Bromwin

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Speaker 1: and her brother Andy in Tasmania before.

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Speaker 15: And I know Bronwin and Andrew used to go over

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Speaker 15: to Hobart because I've got pictures of them here. I

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Speaker 15: can send them to you if you like. They went

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Speaker 15: over a few times to visit Barb. I think they

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Speaker 15: flew over.

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Speaker 1: How have you become aware of this renewed interest?

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Speaker 15: Well, Kim contacted me.

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Speaker 2: She said she's never going to give up. I don't

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Speaker 2: really know.

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Speaker 15: Whether it was investigated enough whatever. John said, they seemed

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Speaker 15: to have taken to heart and said that's it.

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Speaker 2: A lot more could have been done. Soon after that,

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Speaker 2: it just died down.

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Speaker 1: I spoke to Bromwan's half sister Kim about it.

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Speaker 17: I actually have been going on about a trip to

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Speaker 17: Tasmania and no one's ever listened to me.

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Speaker 1: For people who don't know the potential significance, what do

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Speaker 1: you believe it could be?

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Speaker 4: John stole her trip?

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Speaker 18: So the last paragraph in Bronnie's writing on the notepad

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Speaker 18: is I will be going away for a while for

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Speaker 18: a break, and when I come back, watch out the

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Speaker 18: real broblem.

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Speaker 4: We're back.

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Speaker 18: So then I'm thinking nan Ant set airlines, nan making

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Speaker 18: the phone calls, getting everything in order. Nan is my grandmother.

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Speaker 18: My grandmother raised me. So I lived with my nan

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Speaker 18: and my mum Barbara and then Annie. Jan lived in

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Speaker 18: New South Wales because we traveled every holidays to the mainland,

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Speaker 18: and nan Stone sat next to her chair and that's

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Speaker 18: where she did her business.

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Speaker 4: And I remember Nan offering airfares.

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Speaker 17: Let's do airfares, Let's get you down here, will work

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Speaker 17: out everything legally that you've got in place, will do it,

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Speaker 17: but you need to get safe.

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Speaker 4: And my mom's not alive to tell you, and no

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Speaker 4: one was interested in listening to her when she tried.

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Speaker 1: But your Auntie Jan remembers this.

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Speaker 18: My mom spent years talking and crying and writing letters

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Speaker 18: and debriefing and reflecting about the fact that Bronwin never

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Speaker 18: got to Tasmania.

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Speaker 4: And that's why I.

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Speaker 17: Have so many troubles with my brother, because my brother

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Speaker 17: never listens to me scream about Bronwin was actually coming

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Speaker 17: for a holiday. That's what I was trying to explain

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Speaker 17: to him and the police way back in June.

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Speaker 4: Nineteen ninety three.

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Speaker 18: And that's why I'm so emotional about everything, because no one.

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Speaker 19: Ever listened to me, and I was there in the

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Speaker 19: rooms listening to all these phone calls, and then no

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Speaker 19: one ever was interested in mums and my phone bill,

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Speaker 19: which had all the phone calls that we were making

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Speaker 19: to bron When every day and of the night, because

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Speaker 19: we're the ones that hurt John banging on the door.

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Speaker 19: We're the ones that heard him saying open the door

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Speaker 19: and let me in.

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Speaker 2: So I'm sorry heavily, but that's the truth.

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Speaker 13: And I've probably got nothing to do with anything.

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Speaker 19: But I've got Brown's voice being heard now.

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Speaker 1: The great Russian author Leo Tolstoy's famous book from eighteen

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Speaker 1: seventy seven, Anna karen Ina, starts with this sentence, happy

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Speaker 1: families are all alike. Every unhappy family is unhappy in

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Speaker 1: its own way. In Tolstoy's view, a pathway to family

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Speaker 1: happiness depends on important pillars, stability, respect, health, and unconditional

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Speaker 1: love being some of the main ones. In this series,

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Speaker 1: you have heard about a myriad of tensions, hurts, and

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Speaker 1: grievances in the Reed family. Given everything that they've been

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Speaker 1: through before and since Bromwin's disappearance, it is unsurprising. Remember,

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Speaker 1: Bromwin and Andrew did not know until they were twelve

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Speaker 1: and ten, respectively, that they even had a biological mother

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Speaker 1: called Barbara. Andy and Bronwyn's father, Philip is not around

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Speaker 1: to say why he didn't tell his children about the

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Speaker 1: existence of Barbara when they were little. Andy still calls

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Speaker 1: his father's second wife Jennifer Mum, because, as he says,

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Speaker 1: she raised him. He refers to his biological mother as

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Speaker 1: Barbara and sometimes as Mum. After dozens of hours talking

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Speaker 1: to Barbara's two surviving children, Andy and Kim, I believe

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Speaker 1: that Kim has sought to honor two people in this podcast.

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Speaker 1: Kim has honored her half sister Bromwin, and Kim has

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Speaker 1: also honored her mother, Barbara. Kim tells me that she

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Speaker 1: has often felt like the sibling who didn't quite belong

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Speaker 1: and that despite Andy having been kind and loving towards

384
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Speaker 1: his mother Barbara and having included her and Kim in

385
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Speaker 1: family events and visits, there's still been a distance, a

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Speaker 1: bridge that hasn't been properly built with the foundations. Leo

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Speaker 1: Tolstoy was thinking.

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Speaker 20: About as far as I knew, if it was Mum,

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Speaker 20: and it was only once that Mum was sort of

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Speaker 20: allowed or going to agreed to allow.

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Speaker 1: Mom back to our lives at me. You actually didn't

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Speaker 1: know you had a mum other than Jennifer exactly.

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Speaker 20: Yeah, Yeah, I was never told anything really about it.

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Speaker 1: You reconnected with your mum when you were still a boy,

395
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Speaker 1: What do you remember being told?

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Speaker 21: Well, she wants to get back in touch, and Dad

397
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Speaker 21: thought we were old enough to allow that to happen.

398
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Speaker 21: She was always sort of up and down a bit,

399
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Speaker 21: so you weren't sure which Barbie were going to get.

400
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Speaker 21: In a way, it probably was the start of a

401
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,640
Speaker 21: bit of a downturn in family life as.

402
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Speaker 1: We knew it later on.

403
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Speaker 22: I think it did play a troll, you know, in

404
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 22: showering of relationships and a bit of presentment.

405
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Speaker 1: I suppose did you and.

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Speaker 23: Bronwin from the time you then learned that you had

407
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Speaker 23: a natural mother called Barbara, become close to her and

408
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Speaker 23: try to develop the rapport that you'd missed out on

409
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Speaker 23: for the previous ten years.

410
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Speaker 20: Not really know on the only days you know, I'm

411
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Speaker 20: sure maybe one digue or every couple of years.

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Speaker 1: She wrote often.

413
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Speaker 20: That was the start of Brian letters and correspondents, but

414
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Speaker 20: not necessarily seeing each other like at every store, holidays

415
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Speaker 20: or anything like that. Once I was short out at

416
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Speaker 20: home and I had my places about a couple of times,

417
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Speaker 20: but come up and.

418
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Speaker 1: Stay for a week or so with me. Things like that.

419
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 1: Barbara did become more involved in the lives of her

420
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Speaker 1: only son and her first daughter, Bronwan, but it was

421
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Speaker 1: impossible to make up for everything that had been missed

422
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 1: in their formative years. In one of my many conversations

423
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Speaker 1: with Kim, she also described having been made to feel

424
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Speaker 1: most voiceless at times in the three decades since Bromlin vanished.

425
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 1: Kim blames some of the police for this, and Kim

426
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Speaker 1: recognizes that there was much less understanding of mental health

427
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 1: challenges more than twenty years ago. She tells me that,

428
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Speaker 1: in her view, Andy and Michelle should have insisted that

429
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Speaker 1: she be involved more in the evidence. Kim says she

430
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Speaker 1: and her mother wanted to be heard at the inquest

431
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 1: in two thousand and two, but they were, in Kim's view,

432
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Speaker 1: deliberately excluded.

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Speaker 18: Mum and I were asked not to come to the inquiry.

434
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Speaker 18: We were asked not to testify as witnesses. Mum and

435
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Speaker 18: I always been kicked out because of the mental health

436
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 18: card and to stay out of it because we would

437
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 18: actually hurt Bromlin's case, and very politely just told to

438
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Speaker 18: go away and keep quiet.

439
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Speaker 4: Am I being ignored because I was young? Am I

440
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 4: being ignored because of the mental health? Am I being

441
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 4: ignored because I'm a female? And they're the questions that

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Speaker 4: I live with every day.

443
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 18: For many, many years, and they're destroying you know, it's

444
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 18: really hard being the little girl.

445
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 17: That grew up always wanting to get more attention over here.

446
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 1: Brother, Well, Kim, I think you've done an enormous amount

447
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 1: of work to put this story and this case and

448
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 1: all of the facts into the public arena, and you're

449
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,880
Speaker 1: pushing to produce all the evidence has made a powerful difference.

450
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 24: It's something my psychologist and I decided that I had

451
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 24: to get done, and I'm glad I'm doing it because

452
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 24: now I feel like I've been heard, even if nothing happens,

453
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 24: even if something comes of it.

454
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 4: So it's really good.

455
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 1: I'm glad it's helping. But sadly, Kim and her brother

456
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: Andy were not on speaking terms as this episode went

457
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: to air. When the detective Sergeant Glen Taylor took a

458
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 1: statement from John Winfield's first wife, Jennifer Mason in December

459
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight, she was living in the Queensland seaside

460
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: town of Caloundra. Earlier in this podcast series, you heard

461
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: a voice actor for Jennifer talk about her unexpected contact

462
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: with John when he suddenly turned up on Monday May seventeenth,

463
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, in the Shire. John had driven from

464
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 1: Lennox through the night with the two girls and he

465
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: needed somewhere for them to stay. Jennifer was out shopping.

466
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 1: She was separating from her second husband, Brad at that time,

467
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: but Brad's mother met John at the front door and

468
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: he asked her to mind his girls. What you haven't

469
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 1: heard about yet was Jennifer's poignant description of her relationship

470
00:28:55,280 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: with John. Here's what she told the detective Glen Taylor.

471
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 1: And remember these aren't Jennifer's words from that late nineteen

472
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: ninety eight statement. It's not her voice.

473
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 25: In approximately December nineteen seventy two, when I was sixteen

474
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 25: years of age, I met a young man named John

475
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 25: Winfield and we formed a relationship. We'd only been going

476
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 25: out for about three months when I fell pregnant. John

477
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 25: Winfield and I married when I was about three months pregnant.

478
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 25: We married at Engerdeine and moved back in together at

479
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 25: my parents' house at Sutherland. At that time, John was

480
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 25: working at an oyster farm in Kernel, and my relationship

481
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 25: with John was very happy. My dad got John a

482
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 25: job as a bricklayer, and John earned fairly good money.

483
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 25: I've been asked by Detective Sergeant Taylor if there were

484
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 25: any incidents of domestic violence in my relationship with John Winfield.

485
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 25: I recalled John like to have everything in the house organized.

486
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 25: He wanted things done on time in his way. He

487
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 25: never allowed me to argue back with him or question

488
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 25: what he had to say.

489
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 2: If I did.

490
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 25: Question him over some issue, he'd get aggressive and angry

491
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 25: with me.

492
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 2: He'd yell at me, and he made him scared of him.

493
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 25: I recall on one occasion when he pushed me back

494
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 25: onto the bed because I answered back to him.

495
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 2: On that time. He scared me a great deal.

496
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 25: He said to me, I'll kill you if you say

497
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 25: that again, and at the time he had his hands

498
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 25: around my throat and was squeezing. I remember I managed

499
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 25: to say go ahead, and to my surprise, he kept

500
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,479
Speaker 25: squeezing me around the throat. I managed to kick him

501
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 25: in the groin and I got away from him and

502
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 25: hid in the outside laundry. I sat there for ages

503
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 25: in the laundry, and I remember I came back inside

504
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 25: later that night and John had cooled down and nothing

505
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 25: more was said. I also recall this night that John

506
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 25: kicked a hole in the lounge with his knee This

507
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 25: was just before he pushed me down on the bed.

508
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 25: It was after this night I didn't back answer John,

509
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 25: and I let him run things the way he wanted.

510
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 25: John was particular over having things clean, in particular my

511
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 25: daughter Jody. We always had to look our best as

512
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 25: if we were on show, especially if his mother came

513
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 25: over to visit. I tried to have the marriage work out,

514
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 25: and I stayed with John for four years, but after

515
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 25: the fourth year I decided to leave. I couldn't communicate

516
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 25: with John anymore. I had to be quiet and be

517
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 25: a wife the way he wanted a wife to be.

518
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 25: I couldn't have opinions of my own, and if I tried,

519
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 25: he'd build up this anger. I'd then become scared and

520
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 25: back off. One morning, after John went to work, I

521
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 25: grabbed some clothes for Jody and myself, and I ran

522
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 25: off to Coffs Harbor. I stayed at my cousin's house

523
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 25: for about a week. At that time, I hadn't made

524
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 25: up my mind to permanently separate from John, but I

525
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 25: needed some time to just think things out. I rang

526
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 25: John up on the telephone to tell him where I was,

527
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 25: and he turned it all around and said that if

528
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 25: I wanted to leave, I should I panicked, thinking that

529
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 25: my marriage was over, so I drove all night back

530
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 25: to Sydney to see him the next day, but he'd

531
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 25: already gone off to work. John's mother was in the house.

532
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 25: I remember John's mother saying something like no woman walks

533
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 25: out on my son. I wanted things to work out

534
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 25: with John, but it seemed like his mother was encouraging

535
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 25: him to end the relationship.

536
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: In my eyes, the relationship was finished. Jennifer knew that

537
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: John's mother would not forgive her. She had significant influence

538
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 1: over her son. This statement by Jennifer cannot have been

539
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 1: easy for her to make, and she would have known

540
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: that it would become available to John, as it did

541
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 1: in the lead up to the two thousand and two

542
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: inquest in Lismore. When the police brief of evidence was

543
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 1: turned over to John and his lawyer, Jennifer's statement became

544
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: known to her daughter Jody. I've been told that it

545
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 1: put a great deal of strain on the mother daughter relationship,

546
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: which was already troubled. Remained fiercely loyal to her father John.

547
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 25: John ended up setting me up in a flat at Cronulla.

548
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 25: I was well provided for and Jody had the best

549
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 25: of everything. John, however, didn't approve of the way I'd

550
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 25: started to live my single life.

551
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 1: In her statement, she described becoming lonely and depressed and

552
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: spending time at the club to try to meet people,

553
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: and although she arranged a babysitter, Jennifer said she felt

554
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: hassled and judged over her mothering of her daughter. Jennifer

555
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 1: and Jody moved into a granny flat. Although the flat

556
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 1: was well maintained, Jennifer said that John's mother and father

557
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: did not look kindly on the situation.

558
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 25: I recall John's parents turned up one day with John

559
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 25: and they picked.

560
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 2: Up Jody and walked out the door.

561
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 25: Grandma Winfield said, when you get your act together, you

562
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 25: can have her back. At that time, I decided not

563
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 25: to try to get Jody back from John. I blame

564
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 25: myself now, but at the time I didn't understand the

565
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 25: laws properly, and I was depressed and having problems with

566
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 25: my life. And after this John and myself initiated divorce proceedings.

567
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,359
Speaker 25: John offered me twenty thousand dollars so he could keep

568
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,320
Speaker 25: custody of Jody. I told him to stick his twenty

569
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 25: thousand dollars and take good care of Jody, and that's

570
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 25: how John ended up having custody of her. The way

571
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 25: I was at the time, I was mentally depressed and

572
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 25: I'd become suicidal. It took some time to get over

573
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 25: my problems at that time. From that time, Jody lived

574
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 25: with John and John's parents, and I'd see Jody at

575
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 25: different stages during the year. John wouldn't allow me to

576
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,280
Speaker 25: visit Jody at school and they constantly pushed me away

577
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 25: from her.

578
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 2: I used to sit outside the school.

579
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 25: Watching Jody play at lunchtime in the school grounds.

580
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 1: Bridgeta was Romwin's good friend. They went to school together

581
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 1: and they went dancing at the local club and they

582
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 1: were offered at the beach. Family helped Bromman with accommodation

583
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 1: when things were tough at home with her stepmother. Bridgeta

584
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: went to Bromwin's first wedding to Gary Beard. She made

585
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 1: the wedding dress for Bromwin. When Broman's first marriage failed

586
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,399
Speaker 1: and Bromin was a single mother of Crystal, John came

587
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:22,439
Speaker 1: on the scene, and Bridgeton noted John's possessiveness. Back then,

588
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: before John and Bromwin had moved to Lennox Head, a

589
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: ten hour drive from the Shire, but Bridgeta told me

590
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 1: something else when I spoke to her. It was something

591
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 1: she remembered Brown telling Bridgeta she mentioned.

592
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 16: To me something that Jodie's mother, which was his partner

593
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 16: before that, she told he had choked her. And I went,

594
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 16: what you're joking? And I said, why would anyone put

595
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 16: up with.

596
00:35:58,320 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 26: Bro?

597
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 4: Sometimes you've got a up with something and oh, it's

598
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 4: not too good.

599
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 1: In a previous episode, you heard that Jennifer confirmed she

600
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: was fond of Bronwin and they became friends. They shared

601
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 1: some confidences, They stayed in touch because they had Jody's

602
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 1: best interest at heart, and they were able to connect

603
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: well despite Jennifer having once been married to John, John's

604
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 1: first wife told bron yes, and she had choked her

605
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 1: and this is what Broman told you.

606
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, told me that this What can you say when

607
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 4: you hear things like that? So it sounds like he

608
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,720
Speaker 4: did have a bit of great history of it. Then choked.

609
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 4: You can't scream, can you? These things go through my

610
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,399
Speaker 4: head only because of what she said about Jody's nun.

611
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: Michelle and her husband Andy been aware since the inquest

612
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 1: in two thousand and two that Bromwin had confided to

613
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 1: friends in Lenox, including Denise Barnard, that John had put

614
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 1: his hands around her throat and squeezed.

615
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 27: She was scared how much went on and physical abuse.

616
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 27: All that we know is since the statements have come out,

617
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 27: been manhandled his hands around their throat in a choking

618
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 27: one of the things that we've thought about it might

619
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 27: have happened to Bromwin.

620
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 1: I've talked to somebody who said that Jenny would not

621
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 1: be comfortable speaking to me about John or Bromwin. In

622
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 1: the podcast, one of Jenny's very good friends in Caloundra

623
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 1: from the nineteen nineties, Dona Cioleppis, spoke.

624
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,720
Speaker 28: To me she came into the church as a single

625
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 28: mum and she had not had much stability.

626
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 1: Really, do you recall anything that she spoke to you

627
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,800
Speaker 1: about in relation to her marriage to John.

628
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 28: She could never do anything right, She was never good enough,

629
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 28: and she could not live.

630
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 29: Up to his expectations of worldwife should be.

631
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 28: She was very vulnerable and very young, and she said

632
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,320
Speaker 28: that she was terrified of his mother.

633
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 4: I mainly recall her telling me about the bullying.

634
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 28: Tactics to p Jody and that they tricked her and

635
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 28: they pretty much.

636
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 6: Stole Jody from her.

637
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 2: This is what she has told me.

638
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 1: It direcked her.

639
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 2: I took her round to muggling immediately.

640
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 1: Donna described Jenny's concerns about Robin's fate and about the

641
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 1: repercussions that Jenny might face two as a result of

642
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:53,479
Speaker 1: giving her statement to the detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor. I've

643
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 1: read Jennifer's statement. She gave that statement to the police

644
00:38:57,960 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety eight.

645
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 2: I remember when she did that.

646
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh really, okay, So were you around her then?

647
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 4: Yes, she was back in touch with Jodie.

648
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,800
Speaker 28: She was terrified of losing her relationship with Jodie.

649
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: Jodie was definitely Dad's girl. It is interesting that John

650
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 1: goes to her house in Sydney now despite them having

651
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,800
Speaker 1: divorced years earlier. In all of that ill Will.

652
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 10: Yeah, she couldn't believe that he came to her house.

653
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: She was stunned by that.

654
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 28: She was very intimidated by him because she just knew

655
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 28: that Bromin would not leave.

656
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: I know she'd loved Broman.

657
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 2: When I saw that you were doing.

658
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 28: Bromman, I was just elated. I've been waiting to hear

659
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 28: something about Jenny. She was the most beautiful, gorgeous girl.

660
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 28: If anyone deserves happiness, it's that girl.

661
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 1: Don hasn't caught up with Jenny for years. She's looking

662
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 1: forward to resuming contact with her.

663
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 4: I would love to see her.

664
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: In episode five, you heard a voice actor read from

665
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 1: an internal police document dated September nineteen ninety three.

666
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 30: It is known the missing person was suffering from a

667
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 30: mental state of confusion. Documents in the handwriting of the

668
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 30: missing person, located at the family home, indicate that she

669
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,399
Speaker 30: may have been suffering from mild depression. It would also

670
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 30: appear that she carries some form of grudge against certain

671
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 30: members of her family over property dealings and her father

672
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 30: over minor things.

673
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:44,800
Speaker 1: This puts a misleading and derogatory slant on what Bromwan

674
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 1: actually wrote. In my view, it depicts Bromwan as mentally

675
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 1: unbalanced and angry at her lot in life. Broman's writing

676
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 1: was reflective. It was positive in the way she was

677
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 1: looking forward to a new chapter in her life and

678
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 1: the lives of her children. Another jotting noted Bromwin's intention

679
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 1: to do a self improvement course over two days in

680
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 1: June at the Lismore Workers Club. The police report, signed

681
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 1: by an officer who has since died, also stated.

682
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 30: Copies of letters forwarded to friends and relatives indicate she

683
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,360
Speaker 30: may have been trying to write the wrongs of the

684
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 30: past and reunite with the grandparents of one of her children,

685
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 30: who she has had no contact with for about five years.

686
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,839
Speaker 1: Here's what Bromwin wrote to Cristel's father, Mark Davis, and

687
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 1: to his parents Cristel's grandparents. Bromin's handwritten letter is dated

688
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 1: early May nineteen ninety three. She did a couple of

689
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 1: versions on May three and on May five. It's not

690
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 1: long before her disappearance, and she wrote it from the

691
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:53,760
Speaker 1: rented place in Byron Street.

692
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 11: Dear Eda Awen markan family. I thought i'd drop you

693
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 11: a note since it costs so much for phone calls,

694
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 11: and with the girls at school, I have the time.

695
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 11: It's so long since we had some form of contact

696
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 11: that I don't know where to start. I've been carrying

697
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 11: around the guilt of not staying in contact for so long.

698
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 11: It's almost overwhelming me as I'm writing. I believe no

699
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 11: child should be deprived of the right to know its

700
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 11: family or its family and have the security of knowing

701
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,760
Speaker 11: there is always someone to listen to them throughout their lives.

702
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 11: I more than anyone, should understand this, as I've always

703
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 11: felt alone and this isn't something that I would wish

704
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 11: upon anyone, especially my own daughter. We have been living

705
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 11: in a lovely small town called Lennox Head for the

706
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 11: past four years, and the people seem to be some

707
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 11: of the nicest people I've met in my life. My husband,

708
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 11: whom I have separated from, was a very quiet and

709
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 11: obsessive man. He was burnt along periods of depression and

710
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 11: sometimes anger. I have a bad habit of picking up

711
00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 11: lame duckson trying to make things better, and now realize

712
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 11: that you must accept people for what they are, and

713
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,799
Speaker 11: if you are unable to, then you don't get involved.

714
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 11: John always tried to be a good father, although most

715
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 11: of his methods I've regard as too extreme, and most

716
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 11: of his methods to make me into the perfect homebody

717
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 11: were unrealistic expectations, so we drifted along in limbo until

718
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 11: I couldn't take it any more. He had little or

719
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 11: no faith in my ability to be a person in

720
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 11: my own right. The constant character assassination that plagued our

721
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 11: arguments every time I would express an idea or an

722
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 11: independent opinion, had me believing I was a rational and

723
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 11: unrealistic His concept on family and marriage were too rigid

724
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:47,799
Speaker 11: for me and the children to grow up in a

725
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 11: stable environment. My only regret is that I'd had no

726
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 11: one to talk to, although I will never regret having

727
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 11: loen in the companionship and love I shared with Jody

728
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 11: John's daughter from a previous marriage.

729
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 1: Bronwyn has crossed out a few sentences in her letter.

730
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:08,359
Speaker 1: One of those says that she has been betrayed once

731
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:13,320
Speaker 1: too often. Another sentence praises her good friends in Lenox,

732
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:17,760
Speaker 1: people she says she has trusted, and although Bromwyn doesn't

733
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:21,439
Speaker 1: name them, I'm going to mention a handful now. It's

734
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 1: not an exhaustive list. Deb Hall, Denise Barnard, the woman

735
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 1: we referred to as Joan although that's not her real name,

736
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 1: and Maria Glewis Scruffy's wife, and Virginia Bevers. Bromwin wrote

737
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 1: that she needed to learn to trust more people like

738
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 1: the friends she had made in Lenox, and as a

739
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 1: reminder to herself, she wrote that she needed to find

740
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 1: photographs of Crystal to send to Edda Alwyn and Mark.

741
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:53,400
Speaker 11: Crystal has grown up into a lovely child, and I

742
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:55,719
Speaker 11: know you would be proud to be her grandparents, and

743
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 11: Mark would love her as well, but I'm not going

744
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 11: to relinquish my custody. All your family will be welcome

745
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 11: to see her and keep regular contact with her. I

746
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 11: will always be open to your suggestions on schooling and

747
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 11: any other ideas you may have, and would welcome Mark

748
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 11: as a friend to confide in with any issues that

749
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,880
Speaker 11: may arise, although the final decision will be mine, because

750
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,279
Speaker 11: if there's one thing I am good at, it as

751
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 11: being a mother. I'm sure there is room for improvement,

752
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 11: but it's what I love best in life, something sadly

753
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 11: lacking in my teenage years.

754
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 1: Bromwin's good friend Bridgeta remembered Crystal's father and his sometimes

755
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: stormy relationship with Bromwin. Did you know Mark Davis?

756
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 13: Yes?

757
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 4: I did know Mark Davis.

758
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 1: He's the father of Crystal.

759
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 4: Yes she is. She tried to kick me out of

760
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 4: his house once and Bromwin jumped in front of me

761
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 4: to save me before he grubt me Because I ricked

762
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 4: a dirty coaster of the wall. I couldn't stand looking

763
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 4: at all these naked women on the wall. He lived

764
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:01,359
Speaker 4: with other guys in a place called the farm. Oh,

765
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 4: pretty much what the Crinola blokes were like in those days?

766
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:06,800
Speaker 1: And what was that?

767
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:08,839
Speaker 2: Oh?

768
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 4: You know, they used to do a bit of the

769
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 4: marijuana and stuff. It wasn't the kind of guy I

770
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 4: would really want to be, which ectould put.

771
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 7: It that way.

772
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 1: Here's Bromwin's cousin, Megan Reid.

773
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:23,840
Speaker 12: When she was with Mark Davis. She was only sixteen

774
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 12: and we used to double date with my boyfriend.

775
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 1: I asked Andy about his sister Bromwin's letter an olive

776
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:38,280
Speaker 1: branch to Crystal's father and his family. When Bromwin reached

777
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 1: out to Mark Davis's family after she'd separated from John,

778
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:48,439
Speaker 1: what do you believe she was seeking to do there?

779
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:56,800
Speaker 31: She went trying to ensure Crystal's well being if anything

780
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:01,360
Speaker 31: ever went wrong. She already asked and comments to Michelle

781
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 31: and made that if anything ever happens to me, he

782
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 31: promised me you look after Crystal. I'm not sure whether

783
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:12,279
Speaker 31: she was one hundred percent beautiful, but she was just

784
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 31: putting steps in place to ensure Crystal's Willpoom.

785
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 1: Madison Walsh and her auntie Megan Reid, explained that there

786
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 1: was another very delicate issue revolving around Crystal. Bromwin had

787
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 1: a boyfriend, Mark Guthrie around the time of her first pregnancy.

788
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 1: For some time, Mark Guthrie and his family believed that

789
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 1: he was Crystal's father.

790
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 3: After Bromwin goes missing, there's a dispute for custody for Crystal.

791
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:51,239
Speaker 3: Mark Guthrie or he was Crystal's father. Brumwan always was like, no,

792
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 3: you're not, You're not, but he.

793
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:53,319
Speaker 2: Thought he was.

794
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 1: But just weeks after Bromwin vanished, Mark Guthrie and his

795
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 1: family pressed on Winfield. The Guthrie family wanted to form

796
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 1: a relationship with Crystal. John wrote to the family and

797
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:12,280
Speaker 1: to their solicitor. I have a copy of the letter.

798
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 1: These are John's words, but it's not John's voice.

799
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 29: One Mark has never personally or in writing approached us

800
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 29: in regard to access to Crystal. Two. We have always

801
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 29: been locatable. We have always been in the telephone book.

802
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 29: Had he really wanted to, Mark could have found us

803
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 29: at any time. Could you emphasize to your clients the

804
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:43,600
Speaker 29: necessity and advantage of getting the facts right. Not only

805
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 29: have you failed to mention the possibility of child support,

806
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 29: something that has been my responsibility for almost eleven years.

807
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 29: But you have failed to consider Crystal's feelings and what

808
00:48:56,239 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 29: she wants to do about this delicate situation. Mark is

809
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:04,880
Speaker 29: a total stranger to Crystal, and with the possibility of

810
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 29: fatherhood not yet really established, you are asking me to

811
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 29: introduce Crystal to a possible impostor. I ask you, is

812
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 29: that really in the best interests of Crystal?

813
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 1: Surely not.

814
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 29: I am not positive that mister Guthrie is Crystal's natural father.

815
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:30,840
Speaker 29: If fatherhood is established, as I have emphasized previously, access

816
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 29: would be no problem as she suffers car sickness. Do

817
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 29: they expect me to pay for airline tickets each school holidays?

818
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 29: I must say that this event has developed into a

819
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 29: horror show. As we all know, there is always a

820
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 29: third corner to any triangle, and his name is Mark Davis.

821
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 29: I am in receipt of Crystal's christening papers and it

822
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:02,320
Speaker 29: shows that she was christened under the name of Davis

823
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 29: at nine months of age. Mark Davis has consented to

824
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:13,239
Speaker 29: have a DNA test to verify the relationship. The gynecologist's

825
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 29: report shows that Christal was born five weeks prematurely, and

826
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 29: also shows Bromwin's date of conception. Mark's naval records show

827
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 29: exactly where he was at the time of conception. I

828
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:32,759
Speaker 29: have a responsibility to Crystal to introduce her to her

829
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:37,520
Speaker 29: real biological father, and I will. The lack of any

830
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:42,320
Speaker 29: offers of financial support in almost eleven years also tells

831
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 29: me that mister Guthrie is not sure of fatherhood. I

832
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:49,720
Speaker 29: hope you have advised your clients that I could quite

833
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:55,240
Speaker 29: easily make a quick exit and go with your requests. Consequently,

834
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:59,360
Speaker 29: that would lead us to the child support agency, and

835
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 29: a deduction from Mark's wages to the tune of one

836
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:07,279
Speaker 29: hundred and forty five dollars per month backdated maintenance to

837
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:12,360
Speaker 29: December nineteen eighty two with an interest adjustment would be

838
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 29: the best part of ten thousand dollars. It is a

839
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 29: gamble I can afford to take, but I am not

840
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 29: so sure about mister Guthrie. Maintenance, if I am correct,

841
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:29,960
Speaker 29: is payable up to the age of sixteen years, so

842
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:32,759
Speaker 29: we could develop into a nice little nest egg for

843
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 29: Crystal in her later years. The truth here is that

844
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 29: I have been Crystal's father for eight years and in ten,

845
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 29: continuing in that role. She also has a very close

846
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 29: relationship with Lauren and Jody, and for that matter, the

847
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:55,520
Speaker 29: rest of my family and Bronwin's family. She loves the

848
00:51:55,560 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 29: school she attends and does very well there, played the

849
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 29: guitar for quite a number of years now and is

850
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 29: classed as an advanced student. She knows that I am

851
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:11,400
Speaker 29: not her real father and has been told by Bronwan

852
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 29: of the existence of a person named Mark Davis. Mister

853
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:20,360
Speaker 29: Guthrie personally has never made any contact with us in

854
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:23,799
Speaker 29: the eight years that I have been involved. Only he

855
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:28,240
Speaker 29: knows why. My advice to him, for what it's worth,

856
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 29: is to agree, like Mark Davis, to a DNA test

857
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:35,560
Speaker 29: to establish.

858
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:37,080
Speaker 1: The validity of his claim.

859
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 29: In his position, I would not enjoy paying maintenance for

860
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:48,959
Speaker 29: a child which was not really mine. Yours, sincerely, John Winfield.

861
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:50,280
Speaker 1: PS.

862
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:54,680
Speaker 29: I hope you have noticed how Crystal's name is really spelt.

863
00:52:55,719 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 29: Surely an assumed father would know something so basic about

864
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 29: his own daughter.

865
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 1: Here's Mattie Walsh with Megan again, and.

866
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 3: Then he did a DNA paternal test, so that basically

867
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 3: ended there. He didn't get custody because he wasn't her father.

868
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:19,440
Speaker 3: So that proved that Mark Davis, the other Mark was

869
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:23,879
Speaker 3: her father, Marcus Christal's actual father, and Crystal found out

870
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:26,479
Speaker 3: about that before Bromin died.

871
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 4: It's written in.

872
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:30,839
Speaker 32: My diary entry that she told her that her real

873
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 32: father was Mark Davis, and in the phone records you

874
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 32: can see she called the.

875
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:40,400
Speaker 13: Davises the whole family.

876
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:43,400
Speaker 4: She wanted them to have contact with Cristel.

877
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 1: Patricia Peterson spoke to the detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor in

878
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:17,239
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight about her longtime connection to Bromwyn and

879
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 1: her family. As a grief counselor, Patricia saw a lot

880
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 1: of family trouble and she tried to help vulnerable people.

881
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,800
Speaker 1: These are her words, but not her voice.

882
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:31,800
Speaker 13: I've known Bromwyn Winfield since she was a small child.

883
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 13: I knew Bromwyn's parents, Jennifer and Philip Bred. Bromwyn had

884
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:38,399
Speaker 13: a daughter named Cristal, who at that time was about

885
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 13: eighteen months old. I remember Bromwin coming to see me

886
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:44,880
Speaker 13: in my role as a grief counselor. Bromwyn told me

887
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 13: the circumstances of her pregnancy with Cristel.

888
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 1: Bromwyn told Patricia that on her birthday she was turning twenty, she.

889
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 13: Got very drunk and in the morning she woke up

890
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:57,000
Speaker 13: in bed with a man.

891
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 1: Bromwyn married Gary Beer, but it was a relatively brief union.

892
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:07,319
Speaker 1: Patricia counseled Bromwin when her connection to John was new.

893
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:11,320
Speaker 13: I also remember Bromwyn telling me during this counseling session

894
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:14,800
Speaker 13: that she had met another man named John. At that stage,

895
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:16,880
Speaker 13: Bromin and John were in a relationship, but they were

896
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 13: not living together. Bromwyn told me that John was making

897
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 13: her life a misery. Although she told me that she

898
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:26,120
Speaker 13: loved John. Bromwin told me that John was hounding her

899
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:28,400
Speaker 13: and was very jealous over the fact that she had

900
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 13: previously been involved with the other men. I advised broman

901
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:36,440
Speaker 13: to think strongly about terminating her relationship with John. Bromwn

902
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 13: told me that John would go over and over the

903
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:41,279
Speaker 13: fact that she had been involved in other relationships with

904
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:43,440
Speaker 13: other men and would have preferred her to be a

905
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:46,760
Speaker 13: virgin when he met her. I formed the opinion, based

906
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 13: on my previous experience as a counselor and through my

907
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 13: life experiences, that John could become violent towards Bromwyn if

908
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:57,240
Speaker 13: she married him. I assessed Bromwin as being a person

909
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:00,200
Speaker 13: who had a desperate need to love and to be loved,

910
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:02,880
Speaker 13: and she was seeking this type of relationship from John.

911
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:07,520
Speaker 13: Even at that stage, I feared for Bromwin's safety and happiness.

912
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:10,400
Speaker 13: Andrew told me that after John had returned to the

913
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,759
Speaker 13: marital home, Bromwyn had gone missing, leaving the children with him.

914
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 13: There is no way that I will ever believe that

915
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:19,280
Speaker 13: Bromwyn left those children with John of her own accord.

916
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 13: And my immediate reaction I expressed to Andrew was that

917
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:25,520
Speaker 13: I felt that John had killed Bromwin and that is

918
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:26,320
Speaker 13: why she's missing.

919
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 1: In episode seven, you heard parts of Crystal's statement to

920
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:37,400
Speaker 1: the police officer Glenn Taylor. Cristel was sixteen and describing

921
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:41,760
Speaker 1: how her father would not ever talk about Bromwin. Cristel

922
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 1: told police in nineteen ninety eight that over the previous

923
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:49,240
Speaker 1: five years.

924
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:51,080
Speaker 26: My mother has gradually been built out of our lives.

925
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:54,560
Speaker 26: My dad never talks about Mum or his past relationship

926
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:57,439
Speaker 26: with her. I have never tried to bring up Mom

927
00:56:57,440 --> 00:56:58,840
Speaker 26: in conversation with my father.

928
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:04,360
Speaker 1: Now let's go back again to Megan Reid, Bromin's good

929
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:09,120
Speaker 1: friend and cousin, and you wrote this, John got rid

930
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 1: of all of Bromlin's personal possessions the week after she

931
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 1: allegedly disappeared, including all photos. There wasn't a trace of

932
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:18,920
Speaker 1: her existence left, so the kids were told to forget

933
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:20,720
Speaker 1: her as she had run off with another man and

934
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 1: didn't love them.

935
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:22,840
Speaker 12: Yes, that's true.

936
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 1: How did you know that? That's what John did?

937
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:33,160
Speaker 12: And also Andrew dropped in there and he saw that

938
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:35,479
Speaker 12: all the picture face had photos of a different woman

939
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:38,920
Speaker 12: in them from what stuff was gone, and no.

940
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 1: Faith, John's not there, but Lauren let you in.

941
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 2: Yes, the kids, that's right.

942
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:52,040
Speaker 1: And it's five years after Bromin's disappeared. Your mind's made up?

943
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:56,200
Speaker 1: Would you have been able to talk to him knowing

944
00:57:56,600 --> 00:58:00,200
Speaker 1: as you did, or suspecting as you did then that

945
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:01,440
Speaker 1: he had killed your sister?

946
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:05,280
Speaker 33: Even though we were suspicious and always had been suspicious,

947
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:07,680
Speaker 33: we just wanted to see the kids, and we.

948
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:11,120
Speaker 27: Just thought, let's just do it, Let's just go for it,

949
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:12,360
Speaker 27: let's see what happens.

950
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:15,360
Speaker 1: How was it possible for you at that time to

951
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:19,320
Speaker 1: be visiting him socially with that suspicion or did you

952
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:21,440
Speaker 1: see there's some kind of intelligence gathering.

953
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:23,320
Speaker 2: I think we were being pretty daring.

954
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:26,920
Speaker 33: Actually, I couldn't believe it. I just thought, why are

955
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:31,000
Speaker 33: two kids being raised in the manner that they're being

956
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:33,480
Speaker 33: forced to forget their mother?

957
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:36,200
Speaker 2: Roman was white.

958
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:40,000
Speaker 34: There was not one photo of their mother. There were

959
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:43,720
Speaker 34: photos of the kids and other family photos, but there

960
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:48,720
Speaker 34: was not one picture of their mom.

961
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:50,320
Speaker 2: Gotten gone.

962
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:54,479
Speaker 33: It was quite daunting just to think that not one

963
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 33: thing was left in the house that had any full

964
00:58:58,280 --> 00:58:59,240
Speaker 33: memory of their mum.

965
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:06,160
Speaker 1: Cristel's father, Mark, passed away in his sleep in twenty eleven,

966
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 1: and Cristel has clung to a belief, a kind of fantasy,

967
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 1: that a woman who came to her father's funeral took

968
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:16,439
Speaker 1: a fond interest in Cristel, who was in her late

969
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 1: twenties when her dad died. In Cristel's mind, this mystery

970
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:25,640
Speaker 1: woman handed the younger woman some photographs. They were images

971
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:29,959
Speaker 1: of her father and her mother. Cristel has asked whether

972
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:34,240
Speaker 1: this woman at her father's funeral was Bronwyin, but nobody

973
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 1: else who went to the service agrees. There is consensus

974
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:42,480
Speaker 1: that it's a story born from grief and wishful thinking,

975
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:47,240
Speaker 1: with no basis in fact. Bronwyn did not attend Cristel's

976
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 1: father's funeral. As this podcast series was unfolding. Mark's brother,

977
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:56,720
Speaker 1: Greg Davis got in touch with me. Greg told me

978
00:59:56,800 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 1: that Mark and Roman's relationship was complicated. The Davis family

979
01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:05,200
Speaker 1: did not have any contact with Bronwan or with Crystal

980
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:09,160
Speaker 1: from when she was two until she turned ten. Here's

981
01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:12,680
Speaker 1: what Greg wrote to me. These are his words and

982
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:17,240
Speaker 1: Greg has kindly agreed to read them. This is Greg's voice.

983
01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:20,880
Speaker 35: My mother Edda Davis received a phone call from Bronwin

984
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:23,960
Speaker 35: in early nineteen ninety three saying she wanted Cristel to

985
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:27,080
Speaker 35: know her grandparents and promptly put Crystal on the phone

986
01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 35: to chat with mum. You can imagine this was very

987
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:33,320
Speaker 35: confusing for a ten year old. Bronwin mentioned to Mum

988
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:35,920
Speaker 35: that she had left her husband I know. She also

989
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:38,440
Speaker 35: wrote a letter to mum which detailed more about her

990
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:41,920
Speaker 35: issues with John. I can't remember the exact order of

991
01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:47,280
Speaker 35: when everything happened, but Bronwen disappeared soon after. My recollection

992
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:51,320
Speaker 35: is that after Bronwyn disappeared, John encouraged a relationship between

993
01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:54,240
Speaker 35: Crystal and my late parents and they were asked to

994
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:58,440
Speaker 35: help support Crystal financially. My parents were living in Guymy

995
01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:01,000
Speaker 35: Bay in the Southern Shire of the time, and John

996
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:03,880
Speaker 35: would put Crystal on a bus to Sydney, traveling solo

997
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:07,360
Speaker 35: from the age of ten for visits. My impression is

998
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:10,160
Speaker 35: that John had semi disowned Crystal, and within a couple

999
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:13,160
Speaker 35: of years Christel was living with other families that Lennox had.

1000
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:17,000
Speaker 35: My parents paid for her education at school and tave

1001
01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:19,360
Speaker 35: and when she was older, bought her a car and

1002
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:24,000
Speaker 35: assisted her in her move to Sydney. My brother and

1003
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:28,200
Speaker 35: my parents had a very close relationship with Crystal. My

1004
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:31,440
Speaker 35: wife and I and our children continue to involve Crystal

1005
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:35,080
Speaker 35: as part of our family. As you've mentioned, she's reluctant

1006
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:38,360
Speaker 35: to get involved publicly, but she's taken an interest behind

1007
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:41,480
Speaker 35: the scenes. We all hope for justice to prevail.

1008
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:47,560
Speaker 1: Greg also shared a photograph from Crystal's Christling showing Mark

1009
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:51,280
Speaker 1: and Bronwyn together. It's one of many photographs at the

1010
01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 1: Bronwyn podcast dot com site. When Cristel was a teenager

1011
01:01:56,720 --> 01:01:59,760
Speaker 1: and yet to finish her high school education, she went

1012
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:04,160
Speaker 1: to live in Kerry McLean's house in Ballina. You'll recall

1013
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:08,600
Speaker 1: Kerry from episode seven and eight. In one of life's

1014
01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:13,640
Speaker 1: great ironies, Crystel's stepfather, John Winfield, had selected Kerry mclan

1015
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:18,800
Speaker 1: to be Cristel's paid career. In John's absence, John and

1016
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:21,960
Speaker 1: his daughter Lauren were moving to Sydney, as John had

1017
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:27,680
Speaker 1: bricklaying workdown there. It was nineteen ninety eight. Kerry recalled

1018
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:28,440
Speaker 1: meeting him.

1019
01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:32,600
Speaker 5: Then he was in a hurry to leave town. She

1020
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:37,959
Speaker 5: didn't speak unkindly about him. He was all she had here.

1021
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:44,280
Speaker 1: But it was a remarkable and perhaps fateful coincidence. John

1022
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:47,320
Speaker 1: did not know that Kerry was good friends at that

1023
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 1: time with Judy's singh who had witnessed John driving along

1024
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:54,440
Speaker 1: Granite Street with what appeared to be a body in

1025
01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:59,280
Speaker 1: the back seat of the Ford Falcon sedan. Kerry McLean's

1026
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:02,400
Speaker 1: efforts to lert me to what Judy saw have led

1027
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:06,120
Speaker 1: to police obtaining fresh and what we believe is compelling

1028
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:09,360
Speaker 1: evidence in this case for the first time in years.

1029
01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:12,480
Speaker 1: When John left Crystal at the home of a woman

1030
01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:16,280
Speaker 1: whom John had never met until his stepdaughter needed somewhere

1031
01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:19,960
Speaker 1: to live, he had no idea of the coincidence nor

1032
01:03:20,040 --> 01:03:24,080
Speaker 1: how it might pan out. While Cristel was living at

1033
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 1: her very welcoming new home in Ballina, Kerry McLain witnessed

1034
01:03:28,720 --> 01:03:33,640
Speaker 1: the teenager's blossoming connection with her grandmother, her biological father

1035
01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:35,240
Speaker 1: Mark's mother Edda.

1036
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:40,280
Speaker 5: But I encouraged the contact with her grandmother when she

1037
01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:45,280
Speaker 5: was here. I'm sure the Grannie that used to call

1038
01:03:45,360 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 5: her was her biological dad's mum. I remember there was

1039
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:57,840
Speaker 5: an uncle, Yeah, so that would have been her dad's brother.

1040
01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:04,800
Speaker 5: So she did have those family connections with the extended family.

1041
01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:07,960
Speaker 5: I don't know about Bronwan's mum.

1042
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:11,880
Speaker 1: Did KRISTI want to talk to you about her mother?

1043
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:17,920
Speaker 5: She talked a little bit. Some kids have disclosed dreadful

1044
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:21,640
Speaker 5: things to me when they're staying here, and I never

1045
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:26,920
Speaker 5: quiz them. But I'm here to listen. She was baffled too.

1046
01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:28,280
Speaker 5: She had no answers.

1047
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:30,560
Speaker 1: Had you met Bromwin?

1048
01:04:31,080 --> 01:04:32,160
Speaker 2: No?

1049
01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:32,600
Speaker 5: No, no?

1050
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:36,200
Speaker 1: And what about Judy? Did she say whether she knew Bromin.

1051
01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:41,000
Speaker 5: I don't think so. But everyone in the street would

1052
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:44,600
Speaker 5: have known, Oh this person has gone missing. She would

1053
01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:46,320
Speaker 5: have known of her.

1054
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:49,760
Speaker 1: When I interviewed Judy Singh, she told me something you

1055
01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:53,880
Speaker 1: haven't heard before. It was about a brief contact Judy

1056
01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:57,800
Speaker 1: had with Broman shortly before the mother of two disappeared.

1057
01:04:58,240 --> 01:05:00,560
Speaker 36: And in fact a few weeks before all that she

1058
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:03,880
Speaker 36: was on my front gutter, and I was concerned about

1059
01:05:03,880 --> 01:05:06,440
Speaker 36: her because there was a colvet there where the water

1060
01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:10,240
Speaker 36: ran down. She was there with her little girl, and

1061
01:05:10,280 --> 01:05:12,320
Speaker 36: I came out and I said, oh, I'm wrong with you,

1062
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:16,320
Speaker 36: all right? She said, no, my husband's changed the locks.

1063
01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:18,800
Speaker 36: I can't get into the house. Do you think you

1064
01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:21,120
Speaker 36: could give me a glass of water? So I went

1065
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:22,680
Speaker 36: back in the house and I got there in a

1066
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:26,000
Speaker 36: little girl's glass of water, and I came out and

1067
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:28,880
Speaker 36: I just thought, I said, please, don't sit there. I've

1068
01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:32,440
Speaker 36: seen a snake go down that colt there in the

1069
01:05:32,680 --> 01:05:34,600
Speaker 36: front of the house. And she got up and she

1070
01:05:34,720 --> 01:05:36,479
Speaker 36: just sort of stood up that she was a little

1071
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:39,600
Speaker 36: bit wonky on her legs. I think she was doing

1072
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:41,680
Speaker 36: it really tough. I said, do you want to come

1073
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:43,720
Speaker 36: inside for a while, and she said no. She was

1074
01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:46,360
Speaker 36: going to try and get into the house somehow. She

1075
01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:48,600
Speaker 36: said that they changed all the locks and there was

1076
01:05:48,640 --> 01:05:51,160
Speaker 36: no way she could get some things out that she wanted.

1077
01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:55,800
Speaker 1: Two days after that interview with Jude, I met her

1078
01:05:55,880 --> 01:06:00,160
Speaker 1: in person near Tweedthead with my colleague Sean Callanan. That

1079
01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:02,880
Speaker 1: was when she looked at a photograph of her old

1080
01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:06,640
Speaker 1: house in Granite Street. She peered at the image to

1081
01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:09,640
Speaker 1: see if the drain was still where she remembered it,

1082
01:06:10,280 --> 01:06:12,320
Speaker 1: where she recalled seeing Bronwyn.

1083
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:17,280
Speaker 37: Yes, she was sitting on these drains here the day

1084
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:21,000
Speaker 37: she came to me and was winning a glass of water.

1085
01:06:21,680 --> 01:06:24,440
Speaker 2: She was sitting there because that was very shrubby.

1086
01:06:24,040 --> 01:06:26,160
Speaker 37: In there, and I said, oh, look I've seen a

1087
01:06:26,200 --> 01:06:27,200
Speaker 37: snape go down there.

1088
01:06:27,240 --> 01:06:28,360
Speaker 2: Please don't sit there.

1089
01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:29,920
Speaker 1: The fence wasn't there then.

1090
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:33,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1091
01:06:33,640 --> 01:06:37,200
Speaker 1: Our new friend, the scuba diver and former Australian Navy

1092
01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:41,000
Speaker 1: Captain Ash McDonald and his wife Allison, drove more than

1093
01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:45,200
Speaker 1: seven hours from the city of Newcastle. They arrived into

1094
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:49,840
Speaker 1: Lennox very late on a Friday night. More volunteers came

1095
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:53,880
Speaker 1: from Western Sydney. Chris Darcy from Search Dog Sydney, his

1096
01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:57,800
Speaker 1: wife Adele, and a volunteer, Jodi, drove in two vehicles

1097
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:01,360
Speaker 1: with trailers, one for the bow and the sonar equipment,

1098
01:07:01,920 --> 01:07:05,240
Speaker 1: the other towing a mobile kennel for the remarkable dogs,

1099
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:09,080
Speaker 1: which are trained to smell human remains, even after decades

1100
01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:14,680
Speaker 1: of concealment. I picked up the indefatigable Madison Walsh at

1101
01:07:14,720 --> 01:07:18,080
Speaker 1: Brisbane Airport on Friday afternoon and we went to Murray

1102
01:07:18,120 --> 01:07:22,320
Speaker 1: Nolan and Deb Hall's house in Sandstone Crescent, Lennox, the

1103
01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:26,160
Speaker 1: house where they've lived for about thirty five years. We

1104
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:29,880
Speaker 1: drove slowly down the adjoining Granite Street and looked up

1105
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:33,000
Speaker 1: at what was once the balcony where Judy sing sat,

1106
01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:37,320
Speaker 1: where she is adamant that she saw John driving his

1107
01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:40,960
Speaker 1: Ford Falcon with what appeared to be a body wrapped

1108
01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:44,640
Speaker 1: in a sheet in the back seat, and where detectives

1109
01:07:44,720 --> 01:07:48,280
Speaker 1: from the Unsolved homicide unit in Sydney have already been

1110
01:07:48,680 --> 01:07:52,560
Speaker 1: with Judy since you heard her revelations. In episode seven,

1111
01:07:53,680 --> 01:07:56,760
Speaker 1: Deb put the kettle on as Murray shared a theory

1112
01:07:56,880 --> 01:08:00,880
Speaker 1: about what he now believes happened when the falcon rolled

1113
01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:04,360
Speaker 1: down the hill from John and Roman's house about ten

1114
01:08:04,520 --> 01:08:10,640
Speaker 1: forty pm on Sunday, May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three. When

1115
01:08:10,680 --> 01:08:13,400
Speaker 1: I met Murray and Deb for the first time in

1116
01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:16,920
Speaker 1: their home way back in February twenty twenty four, for

1117
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:20,720
Speaker 1: one of my very early interviews for this podcast investigation,

1118
01:08:21,400 --> 01:08:24,240
Speaker 1: we had an exchange that you are about to hear.

1119
01:08:25,080 --> 01:08:29,880
Speaker 1: Remember back then, Judy Singh had not come forward at

1120
01:08:29,920 --> 01:08:32,599
Speaker 1: the time that I met Murray and Deb. We would

1121
01:08:32,680 --> 01:08:35,680
Speaker 1: not hear from Judy for another four months.

1122
01:08:36,240 --> 01:08:38,479
Speaker 38: Okay, would have got enough roll up to go down

1123
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:41,200
Speaker 38: the driveway because it's quite a steep, and then be

1124
01:08:41,280 --> 01:08:43,400
Speaker 38: able to swing and then roll down this hill without

1125
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:46,559
Speaker 38: the car being on definitely until he got down around

1126
01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:46,920
Speaker 38: the bottom.

1127
01:08:46,920 --> 01:08:48,200
Speaker 2: Then you'd have to turn it on because it's on

1128
01:08:48,240 --> 01:08:48,639
Speaker 2: the flat.

1129
01:08:49,320 --> 01:08:51,960
Speaker 7: My fear is that the kids were still asleep in

1130
01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:53,120
Speaker 7: the house and he didn't want to waken.

1131
01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:54,479
Speaker 1: What's that in the car?

1132
01:08:56,840 --> 01:09:00,880
Speaker 2: It's looking very very perplextyle this at So.

1133
01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:02,800
Speaker 1: You think he's there? Come back? Yes?

1134
01:09:03,400 --> 01:09:07,080
Speaker 7: Yes, so he's left here twenty to eleven. He's gone

1135
01:09:07,120 --> 01:09:09,040
Speaker 7: to the all night service station in Valen Which is

1136
01:09:09,120 --> 01:09:09,759
Speaker 7: there anymore?

1137
01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:11,000
Speaker 1: Come back?

1138
01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:12,160
Speaker 7: I needver heard him come back?

1139
01:09:12,840 --> 01:09:15,920
Speaker 1: And why do you think that the children would have

1140
01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:18,759
Speaker 1: remained in the house of sleep? Why wouldn't the children

1141
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:21,559
Speaker 1: have gone with him at twenty to eleven. That's just

1142
01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:26,360
Speaker 1: my theory. A lot of water has gone under the

1143
01:09:26,400 --> 01:09:30,280
Speaker 1: bridge in this podcast series since that first interview with

1144
01:09:30,400 --> 01:09:34,280
Speaker 1: Murray and Dare back in February twenty twenty four, on

1145
01:09:34,360 --> 01:09:37,880
Speaker 1: the eve of our lake search. In July, five months later,

1146
01:09:38,320 --> 01:09:40,880
Speaker 1: Murray told me that he had been thinking a lot

1147
01:09:41,000 --> 01:09:45,960
Speaker 1: about the Sunday night in May nineteen ninety three. Murray

1148
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:50,320
Speaker 1: has been considering the possibilities and the timings, including what

1149
01:09:50,439 --> 01:09:55,920
Speaker 1: Judy Singh has revealed she saw closer to midnight. Murray

1150
01:09:56,000 --> 01:09:59,280
Speaker 1: now reckons that the Ford Falcon ran out of fuel

1151
01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:03,360
Speaker 1: and woul start on the slope of the driveway outside

1152
01:10:03,439 --> 01:10:06,559
Speaker 1: the house at Sandstone Crescent when John got into the

1153
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:11,599
Speaker 1: car about ten forty pm that Sunday night. Murray's theory

1154
01:10:11,800 --> 01:10:14,320
Speaker 1: is that John grabbed a can of mower fuel from

1155
01:10:14,360 --> 01:10:17,760
Speaker 1: the garage, reversed the car out and rolled down the

1156
01:10:17,840 --> 01:10:20,360
Speaker 1: hill without lights and power until he got to the

1157
01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:24,639
Speaker 1: flat part at the bottom of Sandstone Crescent. Then, Murray's

1158
01:10:24,640 --> 01:10:28,479
Speaker 1: surmises John emptied the can of fuel and went straight

1159
01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:33,800
Speaker 1: to the Ampole service station in Ballina. Murray's theory could

1160
01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:37,880
Speaker 1: explain the car bottoming out. It might have had weights

1161
01:10:37,920 --> 01:10:42,080
Speaker 1: in the boot bags of cement, for example, or weights

1162
01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:45,559
Speaker 1: from his bench press set. But it might have bottomed

1163
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:49,400
Speaker 1: out because if John did not have fuel and couldn't

1164
01:10:49,400 --> 01:10:53,360
Speaker 1: start the engine, the brakes would have been impaired, in

1165
01:10:53,400 --> 01:10:57,080
Speaker 1: which case did the car roll back down the driveway

1166
01:10:57,240 --> 01:11:01,360
Speaker 1: faster than usual, contributing to the scrape and bottoming out

1167
01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:05,040
Speaker 1: of the towbar on the road. Did the speed of

1168
01:11:05,040 --> 01:11:08,920
Speaker 1: the car in reverse help John clear the driveway and

1169
01:11:08,960 --> 01:11:11,640
Speaker 1: get a little way into Sandstone Crescent so that he

1170
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:14,439
Speaker 1: could then wrench the steering wheel to the left to

1171
01:11:14,520 --> 01:11:19,200
Speaker 1: point the car downhill. The actual receipt for the eleven

1172
01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:22,240
Speaker 1: o six pm purchase has been sent to me by

1173
01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:25,880
Speaker 1: the detective Sergeant Glen Taylor, and it shows that John

1174
01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:30,000
Speaker 1: spent fifty one dollars that night. If it all went

1175
01:11:30,040 --> 01:11:33,120
Speaker 1: on petrol, it would have been about the right amount

1176
01:11:33,160 --> 01:11:36,200
Speaker 1: of money to fill the petrol tank up from empty.

1177
01:11:37,400 --> 01:11:41,320
Speaker 1: We're not calculating something else here. It is not known

1178
01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:45,840
Speaker 1: whether the liquefied petroleum gas pack in the car was

1179
01:11:45,920 --> 01:11:50,080
Speaker 1: operational at the time, so we are not factoring LPG

1180
01:11:50,320 --> 01:11:54,840
Speaker 1: into the purchase. But the LPG tank was still in

1181
01:11:54,880 --> 01:12:00,719
Speaker 1: the boot. The boot is big in Murray's theory. John

1182
01:12:00,920 --> 01:12:04,040
Speaker 1: then comes back from the Ampole service station with a

1183
01:12:04,200 --> 01:12:07,360
Speaker 1: Ford Falcon which has had its petrol tank filled up,

1184
01:12:07,960 --> 01:12:11,040
Speaker 1: and then at home he's done what he's needed to do,

1185
01:12:11,880 --> 01:12:16,120
Speaker 1: perhaps with Bromwyn and the sheets, leaving the children alone

1186
01:12:16,160 --> 01:12:21,000
Speaker 1: again asleep. The car has gone out again and crept

1187
01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:25,559
Speaker 1: slowly along Granite street, its driver, possibly a gas that

1188
01:12:25,680 --> 01:12:29,960
Speaker 1: the interior light was on. We can only speculate about

1189
01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:33,920
Speaker 1: why the light was left on, allowing Judy to see

1190
01:12:34,080 --> 01:12:40,120
Speaker 1: what she insists she saw. Murray's idea is sound, but

1191
01:12:40,280 --> 01:12:44,799
Speaker 1: we're all speculating with others involved in the search. Arriving

1192
01:12:44,840 --> 01:12:48,200
Speaker 1: into Lennox, Maddie and I left Murray and Deb's house

1193
01:12:48,320 --> 01:12:51,240
Speaker 1: and we went into town, pulling up opposite what used

1194
01:12:51,280 --> 01:12:55,440
Speaker 1: to be Eden's Takeaway where Bromwin worked on the Friday

1195
01:12:55,560 --> 01:13:00,360
Speaker 1: night Chris Darcy, his partner Adele, and their friend in Volune. Here,

1196
01:13:00,479 --> 01:13:06,719
Speaker 1: Jodi joined myself, Maddie, Andy Reid, his daughter Caitlin, Deb

1197
01:13:06,840 --> 01:13:11,479
Speaker 1: and Murray for an impromptu dinner of takeaway pizzas. Chris

1198
01:13:11,520 --> 01:13:13,360
Speaker 1: shared some of his search planned.

1199
01:13:14,320 --> 01:13:16,439
Speaker 10: So I went out a look this afternoon, looked at

1200
01:13:16,479 --> 01:13:19,760
Speaker 10: all the silent, did everything around the lake, and I

1201
01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:21,560
Speaker 10: don't think we go in low priority.

1202
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:22,840
Speaker 1: We'll put the market up.

1203
01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:25,639
Speaker 10: We'll have the laptop, we'll have the boat trailer there,

1204
01:13:25,640 --> 01:13:27,240
Speaker 10: we have the dog trailer there. It's just that I

1205
01:13:27,320 --> 01:13:29,960
Speaker 10: was doing a few extra bodies to help us carry

1206
01:13:29,960 --> 01:13:32,639
Speaker 10: the boat pretty much from there to the waterline.

1207
01:13:33,520 --> 01:13:37,360
Speaker 1: Andy mentioned something he'd read on the official Bromwin Facebook

1208
01:13:37,400 --> 01:13:38,880
Speaker 1: discussion group page.

1209
01:13:39,720 --> 01:13:41,920
Speaker 39: They used to dive down the fifteen meters or so

1210
01:13:42,000 --> 01:13:43,840
Speaker 39: at the bottom and said it was quite sheltery and

1211
01:13:43,880 --> 01:13:45,560
Speaker 39: if you tried to stand up on the bottom he

1212
01:13:45,640 --> 01:13:46,960
Speaker 39: had seen nearly up.

1213
01:13:48,600 --> 01:13:50,840
Speaker 10: So this is apparently is in the deepest hole here.

1214
01:13:52,040 --> 01:13:55,280
Speaker 1: Murray pointed to the laptop and the grid search drawn

1215
01:13:55,360 --> 01:13:56,000
Speaker 1: by Chris.

1216
01:13:57,160 --> 01:13:59,640
Speaker 7: There's the old four wheel drive track go back in

1217
01:13:59,720 --> 01:14:02,160
Speaker 7: those they're fishing and going up and down this beach

1218
01:14:02,360 --> 01:14:02,760
Speaker 7: all else.

1219
01:14:04,040 --> 01:14:09,120
Speaker 10: If it was a surfboard bag, then that shouldn't decompose

1220
01:14:09,200 --> 01:14:11,720
Speaker 10: too much. And an example of that is over in

1221
01:14:11,720 --> 01:14:15,639
Speaker 10: the Mediterranean they're still finding shipwrecks that are three hundred

1222
01:14:15,680 --> 01:14:18,760
Speaker 10: years old in the fresher water parts of it that's

1223
01:14:18,800 --> 01:14:21,840
Speaker 10: not even actually rotting the wood with the sona. It

1224
01:14:21,920 --> 01:14:25,920
Speaker 10: comes down directly below the boat and it really picks

1225
01:14:25,960 --> 01:14:29,000
Speaker 10: up this part there right. But then you've got the

1226
01:14:29,040 --> 01:14:33,320
Speaker 10: side view and it then covers that I've got a

1227
01:14:33,400 --> 01:14:35,320
Speaker 10: monitor that you guys can sit there and watch it

1228
01:14:36,080 --> 01:14:38,960
Speaker 10: on vack at base and then we've.

1229
01:14:38,760 --> 01:14:42,679
Speaker 37: Got radio comments between the stress amazing.

1230
01:14:43,600 --> 01:14:46,639
Speaker 1: Well, so the check is incredible. Yeah, yeah, from Blake

1231
01:14:46,640 --> 01:14:50,479
Speaker 1: who's still figuring out Blue too. You're the search leader,

1232
01:14:50,640 --> 01:14:52,000
Speaker 1: and we'll just do what you think.

1233
01:14:53,880 --> 01:14:56,840
Speaker 10: So that's the soda of what a body will look

1234
01:14:56,920 --> 01:15:01,360
Speaker 10: like in the water, because the potential is there that

1235
01:15:01,439 --> 01:15:03,800
Speaker 10: we could locate, But what.

1236
01:15:03,840 --> 01:15:07,679
Speaker 17: Are the os that realistically, after thirty one years we'd

1237
01:15:07,720 --> 01:15:09,120
Speaker 17: get the visual.

1238
01:15:09,120 --> 01:15:12,519
Speaker 1: Like that, No, non oliver. Yeah, what we're looking for

1239
01:15:12,600 --> 01:15:13,280
Speaker 1: now is.

1240
01:15:13,280 --> 01:15:19,759
Speaker 10: Something that is unnatural. If anybody is having any mental

1241
01:15:19,760 --> 01:15:23,760
Speaker 10: health issues after this weekend or at any time, just

1242
01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:25,160
Speaker 10: reach out to us.

1243
01:15:26,120 --> 01:15:29,599
Speaker 1: The next morning we headed for the water, the dark

1244
01:15:29,640 --> 01:15:34,040
Speaker 1: water of Lake Ainsworth. We'll do our search pattern.

1245
01:15:34,400 --> 01:15:36,160
Speaker 10: If we locate something, I'll drop the shot.

1246
01:15:37,200 --> 01:15:40,320
Speaker 1: The shot is simply a weight attached to a line.

1247
01:15:40,760 --> 01:15:42,719
Speaker 1: At the other end of the line, there's a boy

1248
01:15:42,880 --> 01:15:45,679
Speaker 1: designed to float on top of the lake as a marker.

1249
01:15:46,360 --> 01:15:49,479
Speaker 1: The shot is dropped overboard when the sonar detects an

1250
01:15:49,479 --> 01:15:53,120
Speaker 1: item on the lake bed, giving Ash McDonald something to

1251
01:15:53,240 --> 01:15:57,200
Speaker 1: dive on. The shot weight. If it's a nice heavy weight,

1252
01:15:57,400 --> 01:15:58,960
Speaker 1: it's only three and a half helus.

1253
01:15:59,040 --> 01:16:02,400
Speaker 6: It's not enough because on the bottom that's six meters down.

1254
01:16:02,520 --> 01:16:03,479
Speaker 1: It doesn't wait that much.

1255
01:16:03,680 --> 01:16:06,760
Speaker 6: If I'm searching around it, I'll drag it along the bottom.

1256
01:16:07,120 --> 01:16:10,160
Speaker 1: Well, tie all three together that'll be Tinklos should do it.

1257
01:16:11,160 --> 01:16:15,640
Speaker 1: Chris explained that his cadaver dog is specially trained primarily

1258
01:16:15,720 --> 01:16:20,160
Speaker 1: for bones because he does the long underwater for thirty

1259
01:16:20,200 --> 01:16:23,600
Speaker 1: one years. Yeah, thank you off for Sam. If you

1260
01:16:23,720 --> 01:16:26,960
Speaker 1: have that disturbance coming to the surface, then you expect

1261
01:16:27,040 --> 01:16:30,080
Speaker 1: that the dogs will react to it. We behavior, yes

1262
01:16:30,120 --> 01:16:34,320
Speaker 1: in the boat. Yes, Ash brought scuba tanks and other

1263
01:16:34,400 --> 01:16:38,760
Speaker 1: diving equipment from Newcastle. How much air is in there? Ash?

1264
01:16:38,800 --> 01:16:38,880
Speaker 34: Well?

1265
01:16:38,880 --> 01:16:41,679
Speaker 1: How long will that last? Forty minutes to an hour?

1266
01:16:41,800 --> 01:16:42,040
Speaker 1: Thank you?

1267
01:16:42,320 --> 01:16:45,559
Speaker 6: Pen's how nervous I am, how much breeding I do?

1268
01:16:46,920 --> 01:16:49,800
Speaker 1: Andy Reid looked hopeful on the shore of the lake

1269
01:16:49,920 --> 01:16:53,479
Speaker 1: that first morning. There's going to be expectation and then

1270
01:16:53,560 --> 01:16:57,000
Speaker 1: possible age your disappointment. I don't know how you reconcile

1271
01:16:57,040 --> 01:16:57,559
Speaker 1: those things.

1272
01:16:58,400 --> 01:17:01,000
Speaker 22: I know we've always thought that this was a major

1273
01:17:01,080 --> 01:17:04,120
Speaker 22: possibility the late before Judy seeing before any of that,

1274
01:17:05,080 --> 01:17:07,360
Speaker 22: and just trying to stay positive.

1275
01:17:09,160 --> 01:17:12,160
Speaker 1: Maddie Walsh didn't look ready to get into the cold,

1276
01:17:12,240 --> 01:17:15,280
Speaker 1: dark water. You did say you'd died.

1277
01:17:15,680 --> 01:17:18,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, I did bring my swimmers.

1278
01:17:18,479 --> 01:17:22,559
Speaker 3: I've only really snorkeled in my life, but it seems

1279
01:17:22,600 --> 01:17:24,880
Speaker 3: like Ash is the more qualified diver.

1280
01:17:26,160 --> 01:17:30,880
Speaker 1: There. Was apprehension, but also good humor. Kind people were

1281
01:17:30,920 --> 01:17:34,880
Speaker 1: helping us, people from the community. They came down to

1282
01:17:34,960 --> 01:17:44,400
Speaker 1: watch and lend their support. Murray's laugh is contagious. Chris

1283
01:17:44,439 --> 01:17:47,479
Speaker 1: returned from the far northwest corner of the lake with

1284
01:17:47,560 --> 01:17:50,640
Speaker 1: an indication from his sonar of something unusual.

1285
01:17:51,760 --> 01:17:55,040
Speaker 10: He presents us a larger structure and there's no other

1286
01:17:55,080 --> 01:17:57,280
Speaker 10: structure within the lake so far that we've seen that

1287
01:17:58,040 --> 01:17:58,640
Speaker 10: this side of.

1288
01:17:59,280 --> 01:17:59,960
Speaker 1: This would relate.

1289
01:18:00,200 --> 01:18:02,960
Speaker 10: It's about twenty meters off the shore.

1290
01:18:03,800 --> 01:18:06,640
Speaker 22: If we find her, that's what we're ideally here for.

1291
01:18:07,840 --> 01:18:12,839
Speaker 22: You fantastic if we're binding behind her and get some closure.

1292
01:18:13,600 --> 01:18:16,000
Speaker 22: It's very very calm, very peaceful place.

1293
01:18:16,920 --> 01:18:20,559
Speaker 1: It's an airing place too. How do you feel about

1294
01:18:20,840 --> 01:18:24,160
Speaker 1: the possible recrimination that some might have, which is this

1295
01:18:24,200 --> 01:18:28,400
Speaker 1: is a job best left to police, the media, group

1296
01:18:28,479 --> 01:18:32,599
Speaker 1: and private citizens. Volunteers should stayed right away. After thirty

1297
01:18:32,600 --> 01:18:33,440
Speaker 1: one years.

1298
01:18:34,520 --> 01:18:37,679
Speaker 22: We've had no closure, we've had no movement in the case.

1299
01:18:38,600 --> 01:18:41,320
Speaker 1: The police just move so slow. It's just so frustrated,

1300
01:18:42,040 --> 01:18:42,880
Speaker 1: very frustrating.

1301
01:18:43,800 --> 01:18:47,840
Speaker 22: You just can't thank everyone's involvedment enough to give their time.

1302
01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:53,760
Speaker 22: And every weekend un below ash increase and everyone's just

1303
01:18:54,080 --> 01:18:55,799
Speaker 22: amazing amazing effort.

1304
01:18:56,600 --> 01:18:57,320
Speaker 1: Fingers Cross.

1305
01:18:58,439 --> 01:19:02,400
Speaker 10: We need to recover brom create or cause any dammage

1306
01:19:02,520 --> 01:19:05,960
Speaker 10: or to be disrespectful to traditional oness.

1307
01:19:08,240 --> 01:19:12,360
Speaker 1: Hold that up, Ash, it was half a house brick.

1308
01:19:12,280 --> 01:19:13,719
Speaker 16: Is it?

1309
01:19:13,880 --> 01:19:16,479
Speaker 1: Did you feel the brick or did you see it first?

1310
01:19:16,520 --> 01:19:16,600
Speaker 40: Now?

1311
01:19:16,640 --> 01:19:23,080
Speaker 1: I felt it. Imaginations raced anything seemed possible. But Murray

1312
01:19:23,200 --> 01:19:25,879
Speaker 1: was of the view that the half brick was possibly

1313
01:19:26,000 --> 01:19:29,479
Speaker 1: part of a homemade net trap, that it was used

1314
01:19:29,479 --> 01:19:32,040
Speaker 1: as a weight to help catch the abbeys in the lake.

1315
01:19:34,520 --> 01:19:37,719
Speaker 41: The abby traps out and then wave down the bricks

1316
01:19:38,120 --> 01:19:40,280
Speaker 41: and then put.

1317
01:19:40,120 --> 01:19:41,120
Speaker 7: Them in right.

1318
01:19:41,240 --> 01:19:43,640
Speaker 1: That's that's the while I'm thinking of the moment. We

1319
01:19:43,680 --> 01:19:47,320
Speaker 1: took encouragement from the fact that something that small was

1320
01:19:47,400 --> 01:19:51,800
Speaker 1: visible on the sona back on the water. Ash had

1321
01:19:51,840 --> 01:19:54,000
Speaker 1: something else about.

1322
01:19:53,880 --> 01:19:55,880
Speaker 15: Where you meet us from Sean was.

1323
01:19:57,720 --> 01:20:03,639
Speaker 1: Just pieces different. James fell apart in my hands.

1324
01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:04,920
Speaker 6: I don't know what it is.

1325
01:20:05,920 --> 01:20:09,880
Speaker 1: Is the profile consistent with what might be human remains potentially?

1326
01:20:09,960 --> 01:20:14,120
Speaker 10: Yes, Yes, it's spread out over a small area. It's

1327
01:20:14,120 --> 01:20:17,320
Speaker 10: not giving out because of the user. It's been on

1328
01:20:17,360 --> 01:20:19,679
Speaker 10: the bottom of not giving out of her installed profile.

1329
01:20:21,200 --> 01:20:25,920
Speaker 1: Ashley found an aluminum ore on the lake bed well

1330
01:20:26,360 --> 01:20:29,080
Speaker 1: at least you're cleaning up the lake as well, and

1331
01:20:29,200 --> 01:20:39,200
Speaker 1: you get yourself off amazing. Murray talked about the attention

1332
01:20:39,400 --> 01:20:42,559
Speaker 1: that the town has been getting. It's in the news

1333
01:20:42,720 --> 01:20:46,559
Speaker 1: a lot now because of the Bronwin podcast and John

1334
01:20:47,400 --> 01:20:50,200
Speaker 1: and you're going to see him around town. Inevitable. Oh yeah,

1335
01:20:50,200 --> 01:20:50,639
Speaker 1: it's a sport.

1336
01:20:51,920 --> 01:20:53,799
Speaker 7: I'm sure community doesn't quite the focus.

1337
01:20:53,840 --> 01:20:55,200
Speaker 1: And what's happened.

1338
01:20:55,760 --> 01:20:57,000
Speaker 7: We're a pretty poor the sort of town.

1339
01:20:57,000 --> 01:20:59,920
Speaker 41: Everyone who's conscipes themselves and we'll look after one and

1340
01:21:00,320 --> 01:21:03,439
Speaker 41: we're good, look down the good little community and I

1341
01:21:03,520 --> 01:21:06,960
Speaker 41: think we'd rather this didn't happen. We'll come up and say, Murray,

1342
01:21:07,000 --> 01:21:10,120
Speaker 41: you know this podcast is doing a good thing, and

1343
01:21:10,960 --> 01:21:13,639
Speaker 41: the people also saying this isn't a good thing.

1344
01:21:13,800 --> 01:21:18,120
Speaker 7: So yeah, so where do you go? We're stuck in

1345
01:21:18,200 --> 01:21:18,519
Speaker 7: the middle.

1346
01:21:19,880 --> 01:21:23,400
Speaker 1: The hopes of Andy and his daughter Caitlin were raised again.

1347
01:21:24,560 --> 01:21:26,880
Speaker 39: We found a few holes over there and we've dropped

1348
01:21:26,920 --> 01:21:29,800
Speaker 39: the marker in a hole. It's about seven point one.

1349
01:21:29,840 --> 01:21:32,080
Speaker 39: We just do it quite quickly, twenty five meters off

1350
01:21:32,120 --> 01:21:35,040
Speaker 39: the bank. There's something lying on the bottom over there,

1351
01:21:35,720 --> 01:21:40,000
Speaker 39: something to mention. Yeah, that was the quickest, most successible

1352
01:21:40,120 --> 01:21:43,720
Speaker 39: place to get someone out of car and into the water.

1353
01:21:45,400 --> 01:21:48,240
Speaker 1: Although we were there for a job that was at

1354
01:21:48,320 --> 01:21:52,680
Speaker 1: its heart macabre, the vibe through the weekend was positive

1355
01:21:52,960 --> 01:21:59,479
Speaker 1: and happy. Well have you got there? Everything deb Hall

1356
01:21:59,680 --> 01:22:03,519
Speaker 1: organized and impromptu lunch and the day just didn't seem

1357
01:22:03,680 --> 01:22:09,040
Speaker 1: right without Ian Gluis, otherwise known as Scruffy. I might

1358
01:22:09,040 --> 01:22:10,920
Speaker 1: actually ring Scuffy, So if he wants to come down.

1359
01:22:12,240 --> 01:22:16,000
Speaker 1: He got in his car and arrived soon after. I'm

1360
01:22:16,080 --> 01:22:20,200
Speaker 1: getting people saying, can we have Scruffy with his own podcast.

1361
01:22:20,560 --> 01:22:23,439
Speaker 1: I've got this on record now, so the f bombs

1362
01:22:23,680 --> 01:22:24,320
Speaker 1: careful those.

1363
01:22:25,040 --> 01:22:28,080
Speaker 42: I understand you've got a fairly good recording studio up

1364
01:22:28,120 --> 01:22:33,280
Speaker 42: there sorting this out right. Yeah, editing, and it's not

1365
01:22:33,439 --> 01:22:38,080
Speaker 42: that hard to edit out all those expletives deleted.

1366
01:22:38,800 --> 01:22:42,200
Speaker 1: I remember you telling me how you came to the

1367
01:22:42,280 --> 01:22:44,960
Speaker 1: lake one day for the picnic or a day out.

1368
01:22:45,080 --> 01:22:48,800
Speaker 40: Yeah, and you were with Bromwin And there's a photograph

1369
01:22:49,960 --> 01:22:55,360
Speaker 40: was taken there and it's a photograph of Bromwin's sitting

1370
01:22:55,479 --> 01:22:56,280
Speaker 40: down on.

1371
01:22:56,360 --> 01:23:01,240
Speaker 42: A run with my vehicle part behind her there where

1372
01:23:01,280 --> 01:23:02,160
Speaker 42: we were barbecued.

1373
01:23:02,520 --> 01:23:04,679
Speaker 1: And did you get along well with her? Of course?

1374
01:23:04,960 --> 01:23:05,120
Speaker 16: Yeah.

1375
01:23:06,200 --> 01:23:07,519
Speaker 42: I got along well with John.

1376
01:23:08,840 --> 01:23:11,880
Speaker 1: That was until they fell out with each other. After

1377
01:23:12,000 --> 01:23:16,479
Speaker 1: Bromwin disappeared and Scruffy decided that John had killed her.

1378
01:23:17,479 --> 01:23:21,000
Speaker 42: The house was his and his solely place, and then

1379
01:23:21,160 --> 01:23:24,439
Speaker 42: it became her prison. She's the sort of a person

1380
01:23:24,520 --> 01:23:27,680
Speaker 42: who loved being out and with other families.

1381
01:23:27,320 --> 01:23:27,720
Speaker 1: With the kids.

1382
01:23:27,800 --> 01:23:30,599
Speaker 42: The same agent went to the school, knew the teachers.

1383
01:23:31,640 --> 01:23:35,960
Speaker 42: It gradually seeped into the community that Bromwin was not

1384
01:23:36,120 --> 01:23:38,880
Speaker 42: returning and was not on a two week or whatever

1385
01:23:39,040 --> 01:23:43,400
Speaker 42: holiday anywhere with no communication. She wouldn't have left her

1386
01:23:43,520 --> 01:23:48,559
Speaker 42: kids for two days. This is a big external focus

1387
01:23:48,680 --> 01:23:51,240
Speaker 42: on the community. What feedback are you getting as a

1388
01:23:51,280 --> 01:23:56,120
Speaker 42: result of the podcast. It's a good thing for everyone

1389
01:23:56,240 --> 01:24:00,200
Speaker 42: that knew and loved her, and it's not justice when

1390
01:24:00,200 --> 01:24:04,280
Speaker 42: you've got a cold blooded person, which he is cold

1391
01:24:04,320 --> 01:24:07,320
Speaker 42: blooded and getting away with murder.

1392
01:24:09,000 --> 01:24:14,680
Speaker 1: John has always emphatically denied wrongdoing, and Scruffy's opinion is

1393
01:24:14,920 --> 01:24:19,040
Speaker 1: only one of many in this town. On the second

1394
01:24:19,160 --> 01:24:23,240
Speaker 1: day of the search, hopes remained high. Chris records we've

1395
01:24:23,240 --> 01:24:27,080
Speaker 1: done about the lake in terms of scanning on it.

1396
01:24:28,320 --> 01:24:32,160
Speaker 1: Maddie was hopeful and sassy. Can you please hold that

1397
01:24:32,240 --> 01:24:33,720
Speaker 1: beaver one?

1398
01:24:33,760 --> 01:24:34,920
Speaker 2: Am I your assistants?

1399
01:24:35,439 --> 01:24:35,599
Speaker 41: Yes?

1400
01:24:35,720 --> 01:24:38,600
Speaker 5: Literally, yes, I was hoping.

1401
01:24:39,920 --> 01:24:44,880
Speaker 1: Denise Barnard remembered Bromman's birthday party when she turned thirty one,

1402
01:24:45,520 --> 01:24:47,720
Speaker 1: just a few weeks before she disappeared.

1403
01:24:48,880 --> 01:24:51,519
Speaker 12: She talked about Pendragon and how she had the tape

1404
01:24:51,560 --> 01:24:53,080
Speaker 12: and she wanted us to listen to it.

1405
01:24:54,320 --> 01:24:57,000
Speaker 1: Deb told us about having gone to one of the

1406
01:24:57,120 --> 01:25:02,080
Speaker 1: tarot sessions with Bromwin earlier in this episode, you heard

1407
01:25:02,120 --> 01:25:06,080
Speaker 1: about Pendragon, the tarot card reader whose real name was

1408
01:25:06,200 --> 01:25:08,360
Speaker 1: David Addenbrook, that.

1409
01:25:08,479 --> 01:25:10,920
Speaker 38: Was part of the fifty dollars and he charged you'd

1410
01:25:10,960 --> 01:25:13,160
Speaker 38: get a tape call yeah, question, but we.

1411
01:25:13,280 --> 01:25:14,639
Speaker 37: Never got to listen to it that day.

1412
01:25:15,640 --> 01:25:16,720
Speaker 5: Oh, you should listen to it.

1413
01:25:16,800 --> 01:25:17,719
Speaker 37: It'll be really great.

1414
01:25:18,160 --> 01:25:19,080
Speaker 6: This is going to happen.

1415
01:25:20,560 --> 01:25:24,519
Speaker 1: Bronwin believed that there were very good things ahead, and

1416
01:25:24,680 --> 01:25:28,320
Speaker 1: the tarot card reader Pendragon had confirmed this for her.

1417
01:25:29,439 --> 01:25:33,160
Speaker 1: She was excited about a future away from her estranged

1418
01:25:33,240 --> 01:25:38,360
Speaker 1: husband John. Bromwin had no plans to do anything except

1419
01:25:38,479 --> 01:25:42,360
Speaker 1: look after her girls and make more friends in the remarkable,

1420
01:25:42,479 --> 01:25:47,040
Speaker 1: beautiful town, Lennox said, where she is still remembered fondly.

1421
01:25:49,479 --> 01:25:52,080
Speaker 1: We are going to take a break in production now

1422
01:25:52,800 --> 01:25:55,519
Speaker 1: and we'll be back with the rest of Bromwin at

1423
01:25:55,600 --> 01:25:59,519
Speaker 1: least half a dozen more episodes after a pause of

1424
01:25:59,720 --> 01:26:04,120
Speaker 1: some weeks. Thank you for listening to this the tenth

1425
01:26:04,200 --> 01:26:07,120
Speaker 1: episode and all the ones that came before it, and

1426
01:26:07,280 --> 01:26:26,200
Speaker 1: for supporting this investigation of Bronwin's suspected murder. Bronwyn is

1427
01:26:26,280 --> 01:26:30,280
Speaker 1: written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as a podcast

1428
01:26:30,360 --> 01:26:35,200
Speaker 1: production for The Australian. If anyone has information which may

1429
01:26:35,439 --> 01:26:39,920
Speaker 1: help solve this cold case, please contact me confidentially by

1430
01:26:40,080 --> 01:26:45,680
Speaker 1: emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au. You

1431
01:26:45,800 --> 01:26:48,920
Speaker 1: can read more about this case and see a range

1432
01:26:48,960 --> 01:26:54,639
Speaker 1: of photographs and other artwork at the website bronwynpodcast dot com.

1433
01:26:55,400 --> 01:27:00,840
Speaker 43: Our subscribers and registered users here episodes. First production and

1434
01:27:01,240 --> 01:27:07,280
Speaker 43: editorial team for Bromwan includes Claire Harvey, Kristin Amiet, Joshua Burton, Bridget,

1435
01:27:07,400 --> 01:27:13,080
Speaker 43: Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns, Liam Mendez, Sean Callen,

1436
01:27:13,280 --> 01:27:17,799
Speaker 43: Matthew Condon and David Murray. Audio production for this podcast

1437
01:27:17,920 --> 01:27:21,799
Speaker 43: series is by Wasabi Audio and original theme.

1438
01:27:21,680 --> 01:27:26,160
Speaker 1: Music by Slade Gibson. We have been assisted by Madison Walsh,

1439
01:27:26,280 --> 01:27:29,880
Speaker 1: a relation of Bromwin Winfield. We can only do this

1440
01:27:30,120 --> 01:27:33,320
Speaker 1: kind of journalism with the support of our subscribers and

1441
01:27:33,520 --> 01:27:37,360
Speaker 1: our major sponsors like Harvey Norman for all of our

1442
01:27:37,439 --> 01:27:42,800
Speaker 1: exclusive stories, videos, maps, timelines and documents about this podcast

1443
01:27:43,000 --> 01:27:46,719
Speaker 1: and other podcasts including The Teacher's Pet, The Teachers Trial,

1444
01:27:46,880 --> 01:27:51,479
Speaker 1: The Teachers Accuser, Shandy's Story, Shandy's Legacy, and The Night Driver.

1445
01:27:52,040 --> 01:27:56,240
Speaker 1: Go to the Australian dot com dot au and subscribe