Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the heart of it.
Speaker 2: We would like to acknowledge the Gadigor people of the
Speaker 2: Eor nation, the traditional custodians of this land, and we
Speaker 2: pay our respects to the elders, both past and present.
Speaker 2: I've got a great chat for you today, especially if
Speaker 2: you're interested in the dating apps.
Speaker 3: Which I think a lot of people are. I mean,
Speaker 3: it's these days. It's as we mentioned, as you listen
Speaker 3: in eight out of ten people are meeting on the apps.
Speaker 3: That's a huge amount.
Speaker 2: Yes, Doctor Lisa Portalain is with us. She's a dating
Speaker 2: app expert. She's the author of the book.
Speaker 1: Ten Ways to Find Love. She has a PhD on
Speaker 1: dating apps and intimacy. I know and she does. She
Speaker 1: brings some deep inside.
Speaker 3: She knows her stuff. One of the things that is
Speaker 3: going to trip you out, and you must listen in
Speaker 3: is a paywall of hotties. It's going to make sense
Speaker 3: when you listen, and it's going to shock the hell
Speaker 3: out of you.
Speaker 1: It's not something the American Republicans have built.
Speaker 3: It is not.
Speaker 1: It's not the war, it is not.
Speaker 3: But AI and the apps have.
Speaker 1: Built a wall. We are talking safety concerns with dating
Speaker 1: apps as well. As swipe fatigue.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's not swiping, it's not cleaning. It's not
Speaker 3: talking about cleaning. Might not go there. It is it
Speaker 3: is swiping on the apps. It's a really interesting chat.
Speaker 3: Please stay tuned and listen in.
Speaker 2: Doctor Lisa Portalan has going to tell us all about
Speaker 2: what she learned.
Speaker 1: Doctor Lisa Portal and welcome, Thank you so much, Thanks,
Speaker 1: thanks for coming in. This is fantastic.
Speaker 3: It's a different it's a different thing to study, isn't
Speaker 3: it like this kind of the dating apps and intimacy?
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't I can't think of anyone else
Speaker 3: that You're our first, Yes, specifically focus in on the
Speaker 3: dating apps. But what a great thing to focus in on,
Speaker 3: because it is here today, like eight out of ten
Speaker 3: people seem to be meeting on the apps. So what
Speaker 3: a great thing to talk about.
Speaker 2: So the question is why why did you why did
Speaker 2: you study right about the dating culture?
Speaker 4: So I started back in twenty eighteen and I was
Speaker 4: working in PR and I was sitting in this big
Speaker 4: office with about, you know, thirty different people, and I
Speaker 4: had been in a relationship for a very long time.
Speaker 4: But all of these people around me, particularly young people,
Speaker 4: were talking about how they had met someone online and
Speaker 4: I got this message and this is what she said.
Speaker 4: And then I met them in person and they weren't like,
Speaker 4: you know, what the online presence was and all this
Speaker 4: sort of stuff, And I thought, this is so curious.
Speaker 4: I thought, you know, back in the day, we were
Speaker 4: all meeting face to face.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're all having affairs in the office. Yes, those
Speaker 1: eighteen people were probably all together. I work in an office.
Speaker 4: Well, I I just thought to myself, Wow, this has
Speaker 4: really changed the way people are dating and meeting and
Speaker 4: falling in love and hookups, and nobody's studying it. Nobody's
Speaker 4: considering how our relationships are put through this digital sieve.
Speaker 4: And I thought, this is incredible that nobody's considering this
Speaker 4: and the wider impact on society and culture and love.
Speaker 4: And so when I proposed it as a PhD, there
Speaker 4: were a lot of people that sort of thought it
Speaker 4: was a bit too fluffy or you know, not something
Speaker 4: that was very cool, the perfect yes, right, And so
Speaker 4: it was hard to convince people that it was going
Speaker 4: to be relevant at some point in time. So but
Speaker 4: fast forward to today, and you know, as you said,
Speaker 4: eight out of ten people are meeting online and it
Speaker 4: has changed the way we conduct our relationships.
Speaker 3: What is the most surprising thing that you discovered, Like
Speaker 3: after your PhD, was there one thing that stood out
Speaker 3: the most that you were shocked by? I think you know,
Speaker 3: my PhD was conducted during COVID, so it was during
Speaker 3: a lockdown period and people had nowhere else to actually meet.
Speaker 3: They were very much they had to be meeting in
Speaker 3: the dating app space, and it was a really difficult
Speaker 3: period of time because people kind of felt like if
Speaker 3: they were single, they felt like they'd missed out. It
Speaker 3: was like the doors of closed, I'm never going to
Speaker 3: meet anyone face to face. I may have missed my
Speaker 3: opportunity of having a long term relationship, marriage, kids, hookups.
Speaker 4: Whatever it might be. They felt like they'd missed the boat,
Speaker 4: and they felt like they had to be in the
Speaker 4: online domain. And that was a really emotional process for
Speaker 4: a lot of people because if you've ever been in
Speaker 4: the online space on dating apps, it's tough. It's a
Speaker 4: tough environment and people will describe it as death by
Speaker 4: one hundred paper cuts sport.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So what is the tough just to describe or
Speaker 2: elaborated on the toughness.
Speaker 5: I think it's a.
Speaker 4: Lot of these microaggressions. There's hundreds of these microaggressions of
Speaker 4: you know, meeting someone online, ghosted online, are having these
Speaker 4: conversations online that are incredibly boring minutia being going face
Speaker 4: to face and discovering that the person is not who
Speaker 4: you thought it was going to be. So it's all
Speaker 4: of these tiny microaggressions that kind of lead up and
Speaker 4: make people feel like I'm actually not going to be
Speaker 4: able to meet anyone in the future, and love has
Speaker 4: sort of passed me by.
Speaker 3: One of my dearest friends has been on the apps,
Speaker 3: tried all of them, the rays, the bumble, the tenders,
Speaker 3: they done it all. And I'm sure you hear this
Speaker 3: all the time because I certainly do too. Is like
Speaker 3: I have to take a break, which she's just I'm
Speaker 3: off all the apps right now because I just need to,
Speaker 3: because it becomes it's not necessarily addiction, but it's that
Speaker 3: fatigue and just that starting over another conversation and starting
Speaker 3: over another one, and then, as you say, the ghosting,
Speaker 3: and then it's just the amount of energy it takes
Speaker 3: to be on there sometimes just feels overwhelming. We never
Speaker 3: did it, We've never done it, So where we don't know,
Speaker 3: you know what, I can empathize it, we can't sort
Speaker 3: of relate in.
Speaker 2: That when your friend says that she's she needs a break,
Speaker 2: is that because she needs a break from actually physically
Speaker 2: dating the people or is it the time spent on
Speaker 2: the phone.
Speaker 3: It's time spent on the phone, it's the ghosting, it's
Speaker 3: the it's the getting. You know, you're going down one
Speaker 3: path with someone and then they say something really gross
Speaker 3: and you're like, Okay, that's the end of that one.
Speaker 3: Back to square one, back to square one.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So this is a really common occurrence. So people
Speaker 4: have a very cyclical experience with dating apps. They will
Speaker 4: download multiple different dating apps Bumble, Tinder, Hinge, and be
Speaker 4: across all of those different platforms. It will be very busy.
Speaker 4: They'll be sending direct messages, chatting all that sort of stuff,
Speaker 4: and then, like you said, there will be all these
Speaker 4: bits and pieces in the mix. Something think really gross
Speaker 4: has been said, someone's ghosted you, someone's not met you
Speaker 4: in person. And then people think, I can't deal with
Speaker 4: this anymore. I'm going off the apps, so I'm going
Speaker 4: to delete all of the apps. And then they'll spend
Speaker 4: a period of time like a bit of a detox
Speaker 4: away from the apps, and it'll be a couple of
Speaker 4: months and they won't meet anyone face to face, and
Speaker 4: then they will cycle back on.
Speaker 6: Right.
Speaker 4: So it's kind of a cyclical process with dating apps,
Speaker 4: and a lot of people would say the longest relationship
Speaker 4: I ended up having was actually with the dating apps
Speaker 4: as opposed to an actual person.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, Well, what.
Speaker 1: Did you have an idea of what the biggest misconception
Speaker 1: is around dating apps?
Speaker 4: M oh? I think the tough one is that people
Speaker 4: go on dating apps for something, whether it is they're
Speaker 4: on the dating apps for a hookup and intimacy, the
Speaker 4: love of their life. It'll vary, right, but they're expecting
Speaker 4: to come to some sort of conclusion from an intimacy perspective.
Speaker 4: But what actually ends up happening is it tends to be,
Speaker 4: as you mentioned, a lot of work, so people will
Speaker 4: describe it as a second job as opposed to actually
Speaker 4: getting to whatever their end goal is, whether it's the
Speaker 4: relationship or the hookup, or it's just a lot of.
Speaker 3: Noise, right, yeah, have or do you feel in what
Speaker 3: way dating apps have changed the way that we define
Speaker 3: love or define attraction.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I often say to people, I think dating apps
Speaker 4: are kind of like the uber eats of relationships. Right,
Speaker 4: you can constantly be consuming on dating apps, and there's
Speaker 4: always someone else on the other side, so you can
Speaker 4: never do tend to completely. You can always keep swiping,
Speaker 4: and there is always the potential of the grass being
Speaker 4: greener or some someone else, which means, I guess it
Speaker 4: translates into a consumption of love and disposability at the
Speaker 4: same time. So a lot of people as a result
Speaker 4: end up tying their bonds loosely because they are expecting
Speaker 4: that they can unravel that bond quickly. And it is
Speaker 4: that sense of the dating apps in terms of this
Speaker 4: constant rollerdex of different partners and relationships and the idea
Speaker 4: that there could be someone else that's a better match
Speaker 4: for you out there.
Speaker 3: You're not painting a pretty picturely, it's just visualizing the
Speaker 3: rollerdecks again. But I've got like twenty other girls I've
Speaker 3: already matched with.
Speaker 2: Now, would you invest in emotionally and take the chance?
Speaker 2: You know when I guess what you're saying when you
Speaker 2: say the grass is greener and statements like that that
Speaker 2: it would it would you protection of your own heart
Speaker 2: would come into it.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, absolutely, and I think it's sort of there is
Speaker 4: an issue in terms of with love, as you would know,
Speaker 4: you have to choose someone. That's really the essence of it.
Speaker 4: At some point in time, you have to choose someone
Speaker 4: and go Okay, might not be my utter perfect match,
Speaker 4: but you have to move You have to work on
Speaker 4: the different elements to keep the relationship going. While as
Speaker 4: dating apps tend to encourage this idea that you can
Speaker 4: just keep moving on to the next person, uh and
Speaker 4: moving through all those different matches, when in reality it
Speaker 4: negates that idea that you have to choose one person
Speaker 4: to build an intimacy.
Speaker 3: Do you find that that's exactly the same across both
Speaker 3: sexes as well.
Speaker 5: Or a.
Speaker 3: Men a little bit more inclined to use it just
Speaker 3: as like a hookupy thing and just like sail through
Speaker 3: where women are a little bit more on the side
Speaker 3: of love.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Look, I think there was a mix in my focus
Speaker 4: groups and interviews, so definitely there were men that were
Speaker 4: looking for hookups, but there were also women that were
Speaker 4: looking for hookups as well and long term relationships. So
Speaker 4: I think it's I think it's a bit of a mix,
Speaker 4: and I think the really interesting thing about my research
Speaker 4: was that while people were still hooking up, there was
Speaker 4: still this idea of the end game and this idea
Speaker 4: of this big love within the mix. Like the majority
Speaker 4: of people in my research thought at some point in time,
Speaker 4: this big love would eventuate for them, which sort of
Speaker 4: like harks back to this idea. You know that, you
Speaker 4: know that narrative and fiction and movies and rom coms
Speaker 4: and all that sort of stuff has created for us.
Speaker 4: The theory is someone out there for us at the end.
Speaker 4: And this was kind of an ongoing theme within my work.
Speaker 2: I just coming back to that that coming you made
Speaker 2: before that in love you end up having to make
Speaker 2: make a choice, and with that choice you have to
Speaker 2: learn acceptance and patience, because if you're on this this
Speaker 2: app or there's all this choice there for you, it's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I just move on. Yeah, it's too hard. I had
Speaker 2: a friend of ours when we're living in the States,
Speaker 2: and he was very picky with I don't I think
Speaker 2: he did the apps, but he was very picky about.
Speaker 1: Who he chose. And he was forty years old at.
Speaker 2: That point, and he he brings someone over and be
Speaker 2: like that she's nice, and he'd be.
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, but she does this and does that. I'm like, dude,
Speaker 1: you never are you ever going to find someone perfect?
Speaker 1: I mean even OL's pretty close to perfect. But you know,
Speaker 1: I'll turn it on myself.
Speaker 6: Actually, Okay, you know maybe, but now there's there's things
Speaker 6: that we have to be patient with, and that's going
Speaker 6: to be more patient with me.
Speaker 2: But yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 4: I don't know if you've ever watched the Netflix series
Speaker 4: around the Indian Matchmaker. I absolutely love it.
Speaker 3: I've seen the trailer for it.
Speaker 4: Yes, Auntie Seima, she's out there matchmaking people and one
Speaker 4: of her golden rules is that seventy percent is close enough.
Speaker 4: So if you meet someone that has seventy percent of
Speaker 4: your requirements, then that's close enough and the rest you
Speaker 4: can build on during the term of your relationship, which
Speaker 4: I think is absolutely fantastic and a great idea on
Speaker 4: what we should base our relationships around. But certainly, you know,
Speaker 4: the era of dating apps means that there is this
Speaker 4: sort of sense, a greater sense of judgment, and a
Speaker 4: lot of my participants would talk about how the dating
Speaker 4: apps had made them more judgmental, and this was because
Speaker 4: you know, obviously, dating apps are based on esthetics, so
Speaker 4: you know, they encourage a real visual economy. So if
Speaker 4: we were to meet face to face, we'd be taking
Speaker 4: on all these different prompts. You know, the tone of
Speaker 4: someone's voice, are they funny, are they smart? All sorts
Speaker 4: of bits and pieces. But on the dating apps, you
Speaker 4: basically you have that visual prompt of their image and
Speaker 4: you either swipe right or left based on that, which
Speaker 4: encourages this judgment in a second, of terms of whether
Speaker 4: or not you're compatible based on appearance. People would also
Speaker 4: talk about, you know, when they were in the DM chat,
Speaker 4: the direct message chat with these people, if they said
Speaker 4: one thing that might give them the equal was a
Speaker 4: little bit odd, they just quickly unmatch them and move
Speaker 4: on because there's this constant stream of individuals that you
Speaker 4: could be connecting with. So there was definitely this sense
Speaker 4: that there was a greater judgment involved. Now on the dating.
Speaker 2: Apps, you mentioned that you've said swiping a few times. Now,
Speaker 2: I imagine with all the choice, there will be a
Speaker 2: lot of a lot of a lot of opportunities to swipe.
Speaker 2: And I was reading your stuff before, I'm talking about
Speaker 2: swipe fatigue. Yes, So you know, how do we how
Speaker 2: do people how do we I'm not doing it?
Speaker 1: How do how do people avoid that?
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a really tricky one, right. So you know,
Speaker 4: we have to keep in mind that dating apps are
Speaker 4: fairly gamer fight, right, so they're there to keep you
Speaker 4: in the mix, and they're not really there as much
Speaker 4: as you know. There are dating apps that are designed
Speaker 4: to be deleted, they're really not like the The main
Speaker 4: aim is to keep you on the dating app, right,
Speaker 4: So people talk about going into infinite swipes, so they'll
Speaker 4: just be this wiping away because it becomes almost like
Speaker 4: a bit of a game to them. And there are
Speaker 4: all these different gamified elements. You know, you can buy
Speaker 4: roses for people, you can boost your profile to more people.
Speaker 4: There's all these different components that sort of gather people
Speaker 4: up in sort of a gaming sort of environment. And
Speaker 4: then on top of that, there's the dopamine hits, which
Speaker 4: I think you mentioned a little bit in terms of
Speaker 4: you know, people feeling that they do match with someone
Speaker 4: and they have a little chat and there's that little
Speaker 4: boost in the ego and the sense of self, and
Speaker 4: there's the dopamine hit from that which people get addicted to.
Speaker 4: And then there's also the drops in terms of the
Speaker 4: not matching or the unmatching, or the comments that are
Speaker 4: just a little bit gross, and so it creates that
Speaker 4: kind of rollercoaster ride that you would experience with any
Speaker 4: kind of addiction. Really, people do become a to the platform.
Speaker 4: So if you have to get away from that infinite swipe,
Speaker 4: you have to go onto the app with a real
Speaker 4: specific purpose and really set up parameters around what exactly
Speaker 4: you're doing here, how long you're going to spend on
Speaker 4: the app, what you're going to accept, and when you're
Speaker 4: going to leave as well.
Speaker 3: Is there one particular app? I mean, I know this
Speaker 3: is I don't know if you're even allowed to say this,
Speaker 3: but is there one that you in your study that
Speaker 3: feels the most clear, genuine, better app to be on.
Speaker 4: I wouldn't say there is. They're all fairly similar. And
Speaker 4: you know, my research in particular focused on Tinder and
Speaker 4: Bumble because Tinder was the first sort of heterosexual dating
Speaker 4: app that was out there, I think back in twenty ten,
Speaker 4: and people sort of when they think of dating apps,
Speaker 4: they gravitate towards Tinder, and Bumble was created not long
Speaker 4: after there, but the focus was obviously on women and
Speaker 4: providing women the opportunity to make the first move. So
Speaker 4: back in the day, Tinder was considered a bit of
Speaker 4: the brow app and Bumble was the feminist app, so
Speaker 4: it was kind of like assessing two different ends of
Speaker 4: the spectrum. But in reality, a lot of the dating
Speaker 4: apps are very similar. The behaviors that go on are
Speaker 4: very similar, and people tend to have profiles on multiple
Speaker 4: different dating apps to kind of, you know, keep their
Speaker 4: options open, so to speak. So I wouldn't say there's
Speaker 4: necessarily any dating apps that are particularly better or worse. Certainly,
Speaker 4: you know, these days we're seeing a growth in subscriptions
Speaker 4: around dating apps as well, so this concept of you know,
Speaker 4: locking up the hotties or putting people behind a paywall
Speaker 4: who are more who would be a better match for
Speaker 4: you as well, So that's all, you know, you've got
Speaker 4: to think about this part.
Speaker 3: I heard you talk about this is a trip, Yes,
Speaker 3: so explain that a little bit more like if we
Speaker 3: just use the basic version and then you're looking because
Speaker 3: people have said why am I matching with people that
Speaker 3: are like I would never in a million years, And
Speaker 3: it's like, where are.
Speaker 1: We locked them up? You got to pay for those?
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and who judges that who decides who's.
Speaker 4: On the probably, well, that's that's exactly it.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: So back in the day it was a different kind
Speaker 4: of ball game in terms of dating apps, and you're
Speaker 4: probably more likely to be able to match with someone
Speaker 4: who is who you're after and sort of meets the
Speaker 4: requirements that you're after. And these days there's a big
Speaker 4: push around the subscriptions and signing up to these premium
Speaker 4: packages to seeing your best matches who can be kind
Speaker 4: of locked up behind this pay wall of sorts. And
Speaker 4: as you raise a very interesting question, who defines who
Speaker 4: the hotties are because we don't all think the same
Speaker 4: people are us exactly right, it is likely an AI
Speaker 4: type of function in terms of, well, Lisa swipes right
Speaker 4: consistently on this type of.
Speaker 1: Person, we're going to lock them away.
Speaker 4: And so that this person is going to be locked
Speaker 4: away and she has to pay her thirty dollars a
Speaker 4: month to be able to see these people.
Speaker 3: That feels like blackmail. It's a kind of blackmail, right,
Speaker 3: Like you pay more and you might get more of
Speaker 3: a chance of meeting your mate.
Speaker 4: That's right, that's so bad. People really object to paying
Speaker 4: for love.
Speaker 2: Yes, but I always thought the whole idea of this,
Speaker 2: which I didn't mind, the idea of this that instead
Speaker 2: of going to your regular pub, you know, where you
Speaker 2: know everyone's going to be, you're going to be introduced
Speaker 2: to a cross section of people that you would never
Speaker 2: come across. Yes, so you know, it'd be like sort
Speaker 2: of dating in New York City, as I imagine that
Speaker 2: to be where you don't know really what anybody does.
Speaker 2: You don't know where they live, what car they drive.
Speaker 2: Most of them don't have a car, you know, but
Speaker 2: it's a pretty wide, very field in that in Manhattan.
Speaker 1: Yes, And.
Speaker 2: That's what I thought the dating apps were all about,
Speaker 2: that you're going to actually meet someone that you ordinarily
Speaker 2: wouldn't come.
Speaker 1: Across in your daily work life or social life. So
Speaker 1: that's that.
Speaker 2: Doesn't what you're suggesting here, That doesn't seem to be
Speaker 2: the case.
Speaker 4: Well, look, I think there are two things can be
Speaker 4: true at the same time, right, And I do think
Speaker 4: that at the end of the day, where I'm always
Speaker 4: i feel like I'm dating apps as big as detract us.
Speaker 4: Sometimes I'm always sort of talking about the negatives. But
Speaker 4: I do think that it does open up a whole
Speaker 4: cross section of people that you wouldn't ordinary meet. So
Speaker 4: you know, if we were back in the day, it
Speaker 4: was sort of you know, a family and friends would
Speaker 4: introduce us to people. We'd meet people through the office,
Speaker 4: so we kind of had a closed circle of who
Speaker 4: we would come into contact with, while as dating apps
Speaker 4: kind of open up that circle so you could meet
Speaker 4: someone in a different city for example. You know, think
Speaker 4: about people that are living in regional places in Australia
Speaker 4: as well, who have you know, a very sort of
Speaker 4: closed circuit of people have an opportunity to meet someone
Speaker 4: you know somewhere else all together. So there are a
Speaker 4: lot of positives in the mix too, and you know
Speaker 4: that can certainly, you know, as as mentioned, eight out
Speaker 4: of ten people are meeting on dating apps these days,
Speaker 4: and there are a lot of relationships and marriages that
Speaker 4: come out of dating apps. But certainly for people, for
Speaker 4: the majority of people, it does feel like they have
Speaker 4: to sift through a lot of these toxic sort of
Speaker 4: issues in the background before or they eventually get to
Speaker 4: someone who is their match.
Speaker 2: Yes, it sounds like sounds like the casting in Los Angeles,
Speaker 2: like because everyone was flocking from all over the world
Speaker 2: to go to Los Angeles to act, but you know,
Speaker 2: it was everyone there, so the casting directors really had
Speaker 2: to be the gatekeeper and the cream would rise, but
Speaker 2: you had to sift through a lot of different different people.
Speaker 3: What are some of the common mistakes that people make
Speaker 3: on dating apps?
Speaker 4: Well, I think one of the really common mistakes is
Speaker 4: not presenting yourself as who you are. So I think,
Speaker 4: you know, definitely the platforms encourage you to put your
Speaker 4: best foot forwards, so you know, you want to put
Speaker 4: the best images of yourself up and the best description
Speaker 4: and all that sort of stuff, because you're conscious that
Speaker 4: you are trading in a visual economy and that's the
Speaker 4: first thing that people are going to see. But one
Speaker 4: of the critical issues around dating apps is obviously around
Speaker 4: authenticity and you know, actually connecting with someone who says
Speaker 4: who they say they are and vice versa yourself at
Speaker 4: the same time. So I guess, you know, putting that
Speaker 4: sort of more authentic self forward is probably the best approach,
Speaker 4: but people feel like they have to put forward a
Speaker 4: pseudo version of Lisa or the best version of Lisa.
Speaker 2: This is tricky because when you say, you know, if
Speaker 2: I'm putting my best foot forward to the app, and
Speaker 2: then I'm being rejected by no one's picking me out,
Speaker 2: no one's swiping, whichever way the tick is. Explain how
Speaker 2: fear of rejection plays a part in the dating apps,
Speaker 2: and what can in your studies and what you found out,
Speaker 2: what can people do in order to just sort of
Speaker 2: deal with that better.
Speaker 4: I think this is a really interesting question because fear
Speaker 4: of rejection came up a lot, and it came up
Speaker 4: a lot in terms of why people were using dating apps.
Speaker 4: So they would say, being rejected on a dating app is,
Speaker 4: you know, one of those many paper cuts that you
Speaker 4: experience on a dating app, But being rejected face to
Speaker 4: face is a completely different ballgame. And I don't feel
Speaker 4: like I can be rejected face to face anymore. So
Speaker 4: there was that was a big, a big pathway in
Speaker 4: terms of why they were using dating apps in particular.
Speaker 4: But certainly I think that people would often talk about
Speaker 4: how dating apps would make them feel, and often they
Speaker 4: would say things like dating apps make me feel really
Speaker 4: shit about myself. Like, prior to this experience, I thought
Speaker 4: I was okay, you know, I thought that I was
Speaker 4: fairly attractive, you know, I had a good job, and funny,
Speaker 4: all these sorts of bits and pieces, and then I
Speaker 4: got on the dating apps and it was crickets and
Speaker 4: you know, I feel pretty low about myself. My self
Speaker 4: esteem has definitely dropped as a result of this experience.
Speaker 4: And this is all part, I guess to some degree
Speaker 4: of that addiction in terms of there are the big
Speaker 4: dopamine hits and then there are lows, and you get
Speaker 4: stuck on this roller coaster of emotions.
Speaker 3: Do you think they're here to stay? I mean, or
Speaker 3: are we ever going to go back to meeting the
Speaker 3: love of your life at a nightclub?
Speaker 4: I do think that they're here to stay.
Speaker 3: I do.
Speaker 4: Did you meet a nightclub?
Speaker 3: Or we did? We did?
Speaker 4: We did? I do think they're here to stay because
Speaker 4: they do open up this cross section of people to you.
Speaker 4: And you know, we all lead such busy lives that
Speaker 4: you know, it's just easy to jump online who you
Speaker 4: can meet. And I do think that we have lost
Speaker 4: to some degree a lot of the soft skills that
Speaker 4: it takes to actually converse with people in public and
Speaker 4: meet to build up an intimacy. Even you know, flirting
Speaker 4: or just striking up a conversation with a stranger are
Speaker 4: all for example, gen z are all things that you
Speaker 4: know they're not familiar with because they have interacted for
Speaker 4: the most part in an online domain, whether it's through
Speaker 4: dating apps, whether it's for friendships, whether it's for gaming,
Speaker 4: the majority of it's happened in that online space, and
Speaker 4: they've kind of lost that those face to face elements,
Speaker 4: which is actually very sad, but I do think that
Speaker 4: they are here to stay moving forward.
Speaker 3: Our nineteen year old is she's not on the dating apps,
Speaker 3: but like when she meets someone, you just get their
Speaker 3: snap from Snapchat. You get their snap and then you
Speaker 3: start conversing. Still, yes, so it's still through text, it's
Speaker 3: still through your phone, so it's not just like let's
Speaker 3: just meet and then they might meet up, but it's
Speaker 3: still yeah, as you were saying, it's still through an
Speaker 3: extra thing in between them, that screen.
Speaker 4: It's still absolutely and whether it's through TikTok or Instagram
Speaker 4: or whatever platform it might be. So that whole sort
Speaker 4: of preliminary discussion is kind of conducted in the online space,
Speaker 4: and certainly it does take out that element of that
Speaker 4: fear of rejection, for example, but there was also a
Speaker 4: bit of a gap for people sometimes in terms of
Speaker 4: you know, they would have been chatting to someone online
Speaker 4: for a period of time and had built up an
Speaker 4: image of what that person would be like, and then
Speaker 4: they would meet them in person and very rarely would
Speaker 4: the person actually match what they had experienced in that
Speaker 4: online space. So there's that gap between you know, our
Speaker 4: digital presence and who we are in real life as well,
Speaker 4: which is difficult to bridge.
Speaker 3: What's the TikTok trend and how that does that shape relationship.
Speaker 4: TikTok okay, So you know, in terms of TikTok, a
Speaker 4: lot of people these days believe it or not get
Speaker 4: their relationship advice from TikTok, which you know is somewhat surreal.
Speaker 4: I think, you know, you would think that, you know,
Speaker 4: you would get your relationship advice from you know, friends
Speaker 4: or parents or relatives or your counselor.
Speaker 3: Or a psychologist or you know, whoever it might be.
Speaker 4: But people do go to TikTok and there's all sorts
Speaker 4: of you know, relationship influences within the mix that apout
Speaker 4: all types of advice. But as you can imagine, with TikTok,
Speaker 4: you've literally got three seconds to grab people. So people
Speaker 4: move on to the next thing on TikTok within three seconds.
Speaker 4: So that sort of thing exasperates the need to say
Speaker 4: something that is in essence clickbait, like something that is
Speaker 4: really out there to grab people quickly. And as we know,
Speaker 4: within the relationship space, it's often very nuanced, so it's
Speaker 4: not as clear as you know, one catchphrase or a
Speaker 4: sentence that's going to resolve an issue or tell you
Speaker 4: how to meet someone. It's often much more complex than that.
Speaker 4: So often these TikTok trends, whether they're beijes flags, red flags,
Speaker 4: you know, the black cattle, labrador energy, or whatever you
Speaker 4: want to call it, they're just these kind of trends
Speaker 4: that people gravitate towards, and I guess to some degree
Speaker 4: can conflate into something that's actually real that they can
Speaker 4: apply in real life, like quickly.
Speaker 1: Yes, and it is.
Speaker 2: I guess there's a dopamine hit off that too.
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely absolutely, But there is there's so much complexity
Speaker 4: in in relationships. It's not as easy as saying it's
Speaker 4: just this one thing that's going to make your relationship work,
Speaker 4: or mean that you're going to meet the love of
Speaker 4: your life. It's actually very complex, which doesn't tend to
Speaker 4: lend itself towards TikTok or Instagram or things that are
Speaker 4: quick and fast and easy to consume.
Speaker 5: I guess yeah, Lisa, and I know you have a partner.
Speaker 2: If by chance, you found yourself out as a single
Speaker 2: person again, would you use a dating app?
Speaker 1: Well, that's a.
Speaker 4: Really good question. I don't know if I would. I
Speaker 4: would probably prefer to meet someone organically and face to face.
Speaker 4: And I think that, you know, through my profession and
Speaker 4: through also my research, I've had so much opportunity to
Speaker 4: talk to people and you know, through focus groups interviews
Speaker 4: about intimacy and relationships, and I think that you know
Speaker 4: the magic of unpicking someone or understanding someone, whether it's
Speaker 4: from a relationship perspective, even a friendship, those sorts of
Speaker 4: skills in the face to face environment, the nuances, the
Speaker 4: depth that you get is so much deeper and richer.
Speaker 4: So I don't think I would.
Speaker 3: If you could create a dating app, what do you
Speaker 3: think it would be like? What would what features would
Speaker 3: you have on it?
Speaker 4: Well, I certainly wouldn't lock up the hotting. So I
Speaker 4: think that people object to paying for love right critically,
Speaker 4: people think that love should be organic. Yeah, that's like
Speaker 4: a primary understanding of what love is, so I wouldn't
Speaker 4: have the subscription based model built in. That's the key part.
Speaker 4: I think that there is something around the static imagery
Speaker 4: that really throws people off. And I think that people
Speaker 4: want to see motion, and they want to see how
Speaker 4: people talk, use their hands, smile, like all those different
Speaker 4: elements that build up what a person is actually like.
Speaker 4: So I think the video content is really instrumental, and
Speaker 4: I do think to some degree that's why people really
Speaker 4: gravitate to TikTok for example. Right, So I would lose
Speaker 4: a lot of the static elements. I think I would
Speaker 4: provide for you know, greater descriptions around people as well,
Speaker 4: and they're a bit more around their character, which I
Speaker 4: think that people don't gravitate towards reading anything anymore these days. Right,
Speaker 4: So it's difficult from that sort of component. But the
Speaker 4: other part is I would try to build in some
Speaker 4: sort of face to face element because I think it's
Speaker 4: really difficult to create that initial intimacy within an online
Speaker 4: environment because there is a gap between who we are
Speaker 4: from a digital perspective and who we are in real life,
Speaker 4: and sometimes those things that in real life, you know,
Speaker 4: the uglier parts of who we are, the things that
Speaker 4: are not so great are actually the bits and pieces
Speaker 4: that end up building up and intimacy.
Speaker 3: Do you see a difference the way generations use the
Speaker 3: app you know, from the twenty year olds to the
Speaker 3: forty fifty, sixty and beyond, are they using them differently?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would say, for example, dating apps really came
Speaker 4: into being for gen Y and gen X, right, and
Speaker 4: certainly gen Y and gen X are probably a generation
Speaker 4: that are you know, into more of who was hot
Speaker 4: and who's not. You know, that's the time that Facebook
Speaker 4: and was really created. While as for example, millennials tend
Speaker 4: to be more values based and less based on those
Speaker 4: sort of visual prompts than Gen X and gen why
Speaker 4: were and as you sort of mentioned, they tend to
Speaker 4: engage a little bit less with dating apps. So dating
Speaker 4: apps have not done a great job with millennials. Millennials
Speaker 4: are more likely to use social media and other platforms
Speaker 4: to connect as opposed to dating apps. I think to
Speaker 4: an older generation, it's a very complex space in terms
Speaker 4: of entering this space after you've been in a long
Speaker 4: term relationship is very difficult, and part of it is
Speaker 4: also around the disposability of it all. So within my
Speaker 4: sort of the older cohort of people. They'd say to me,
Speaker 4: you know, back in the day when I was in
Speaker 4: my twenties, I might go on a date every couple
Speaker 4: of months, and you know, I had more of an
Speaker 4: incentive to kind of make it work. I'd go on
Speaker 4: the second date even if things weren't utterly perfect, because
Speaker 4: I knew that there wasn't going to be someone just
Speaker 4: around the corner. While as now, they're in these platform
Speaker 4: where they can go on a date every week or
Speaker 4: every other day if they want to. So it does
Speaker 4: increase that element of disposability, which I guess is really
Speaker 4: difficult to come to terms with.
Speaker 1: Here's so much pressure.
Speaker 2: I remember we had a friend in the States who
Speaker 2: was she was doing it, and she would go on
Speaker 2: coffee dates and things like that, and she was quite
Speaker 2: let's say, judge, judge, judicious, you know, and she would
Speaker 2: have these quick dates with them, and I just thought
Speaker 2: if I was on the end, if I was on
Speaker 2: the receiving end of that, I know I would be
Speaker 2: able to feel that and that wouldn't be great for me,
Speaker 2: you know, if.
Speaker 1: That was it would be it would be really tricky.
Speaker 3: On the on the flip side of that though, just
Speaker 3: thinking also I think I know, I mean, I know
Speaker 3: who you're talking about. And I think those first dates
Speaker 3: as a female, you're literally checking out. Am I going
Speaker 3: is this person going to murder me? Like she would
Speaker 3: she would tell you know, this is where I'm going
Speaker 3: to be. She'd tell us that I'm going to be here,
Speaker 3: this is what his name is, you know, and like
Speaker 3: we would say, do you want us to be in
Speaker 3: the same coffee shop as you? Just in case? You know,
Speaker 3: so there is there's that for women, that's what's in
Speaker 3: the back of their minds.
Speaker 1: Plus it was America.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: The safety discussion is a really important one, particularly for
Speaker 4: women and more vulnerable groups. And there was a study
Speaker 4: done by i think the Australian Institute of Criminology a
Speaker 4: couple of years ago that demonstrated that three out of
Speaker 4: four people that use dating apps actually have some sort
Speaker 4: of violent abusive experience with the dating apps, whether it
Speaker 4: is you know, receiving disgusting messages, images that are unsolicited,
Speaker 4: down to things that are that are violent face to face,
Speaker 4: and you know, even people within my focus groups and
Speaker 4: my interviews would describe these things, whether it was you know,
Speaker 4: something you know receiving quite a rude message, or you know,
Speaker 4: sitting on the bus and suddenly opening up their phone
Speaker 4: and receiving a dick pick just being like so shocked
Speaker 4: that suddenly this was the image that they had come
Speaker 4: across down to you. You know, I had someone within
Speaker 4: my focus group who was stalked by someone they had
Speaker 4: met on a dating app, who had then gone about
Speaker 4: actually putting together their lives through their Instagram and social
Speaker 4: media profiles and ended up going to their house. So
Speaker 4: there is a massive safety issue for dating apps. And
Speaker 4: dating apps have put in place this voluntary code in
Speaker 4: Australia in terms of doing better to protect vulnerable groups,
Speaker 4: but certainly it continues to be a major issue.
Speaker 2: I was working on a show, a musical theater show,
Speaker 2: and this was back in twenty twelve, and one of
Speaker 2: the guys in the com he was gussing himself up
Speaker 2: after a show and he came running in. He goes, look,
Speaker 2: look look at this. This is I'm going to go
Speaker 2: get I'm getting lucky tonight.
Speaker 1: So how do you how do you do that?
Speaker 2: And he goes, this is is grinder and he's tell
Speaker 2: me about the app, the grinder app, you know, and
Speaker 2: so that was back then, so we've evolved, you know,
Speaker 2: at well past a decade beyond that. Is there a
Speaker 2: difference or did you research a difference between those the
Speaker 2: gay apps and the and the hetero apps.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I did have quite a few people within
Speaker 4: my focus groups and interviews that were men and we're
Speaker 4: queer and we're on grind during Scruff and Tinder, and
Speaker 4: you know, it was very much more transactional and about sex,
Speaker 4: and I think to the point where Tinder was often
Speaker 4: more perceived as the relationship app as opposed, for example, Grinder,
Speaker 4: which is kind of the opposite from a heterosexual perspective
Speaker 4: in terms of tender is a bit more like the
Speaker 4: meat market. But the other thing that came up a
Speaker 4: lot was, I think, and this is a really difficult
Speaker 4: thing to talk about, that sexual racism as well. So
Speaker 4: you know, Asian queer men on dating apps, you know,
Speaker 4: not being able to find any sort of match because
Speaker 4: that there was this real stigma around Asian men. So
Speaker 4: for example, a lot of people back in the day
Speaker 4: would write things like no Asians just a preference on
Speaker 4: their Grinder profile. So there was a real kind of
Speaker 4: stigmatization and sexual racism within the mix that was very
Speaker 4: disturbing to some degree, and to read that if Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 4: absolutely so. There was a lot of different lenses within
Speaker 4: the quick space that could be applied, but definitely, you know,
Speaker 4: it was much more about sex. It was much more
Speaker 4: transactional than it was from a heterosexual perspective.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's more. That's more the understanding anyway of
Speaker 3: those particular apps. From what my understanding is that it
Speaker 3: is that it's transactional, with a consent that it is transactional.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I absolutely agree that that's the case,
Speaker 4: and I think, as you said, there's a consent that
Speaker 4: it is transactional. But I do think that over time
Speaker 4: it can also become a burden in terms of, you know,
Speaker 4: having to participate in this kind of culture of you know,
Speaker 4: consistent transactional sex and wanting perhaps for more as well,
Speaker 4: wanting for different narratives within the mix and not having
Speaker 4: them available because there is very much an idea of
Speaker 4: what you know, a queer man should be doing at
Speaker 4: a certain point as well. Also, it can be Yeah,
Speaker 4: I think it can be quite can become quite a
Speaker 4: burden over time, And.
Speaker 3: Would it be would it be a real negative tool
Speaker 3: in one sense for this is across you know, queer, straight, gay,
Speaker 3: whatever that with the sexual addiction, is that something that
Speaker 3: the apps would feed that in negative way?
Speaker 4: Yeah, So I think it's kind of like any sort
Speaker 4: of addiction, right, you know, and a bit like you know,
Speaker 4: the dopamine hits that we were kind of talking about
Speaker 4: in terms of those easy transactions and just those massive
Speaker 4: sort of ego boosts, however they might be. And definitely
Speaker 4: I think that dating apps can feed into that and
Speaker 4: can provide that, and you know, there's an easy accessibility,
Speaker 4: and you can fall into that trap of just consistently
Speaker 4: just going through a person after person after person, which
Speaker 4: is as you mentioned, or fine when there's consent and
Speaker 4: you know everyone's there to have a good time and
Speaker 4: all that sort of stuff. But I think at some
Speaker 4: point in time it also becomes it can become an
Speaker 4: issue and can become an addiction of sorts as well.
Speaker 3: As you said, like the uber eats of yes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Lisa, what is your what's your go to
Speaker 2: advice for people who are disclose to giving up and
Speaker 2: adopting a dog.
Speaker 1: Instead get the dog?
Speaker 4: No, I think I go to advice would be and
Speaker 4: I always, I always go back to this. I think
Speaker 4: that you know, in contemporary culture, there's a real focus
Speaker 4: around finding the love of your life. Yea, And we
Speaker 4: live in twenty twenty five, and you know, we think
Speaker 4: that we've gone past that, but in reality, there is
Speaker 4: this really prevalent narrative that you haven't made it in
Speaker 4: life if you haven't met the love of your life.
Speaker 4: You know. So people within my research definitely felt like
Speaker 4: if they weren't in a relationship by the time there
Speaker 4: were thirty plus, that their life hadn't started, hadn't officially started, right,
Speaker 4: which is a really odd idea if you think about it.
Speaker 4: And I think we kind of need to peel back
Speaker 4: that narrative as to why people feel like they need
Speaker 4: to find the love of their life, because you can
Speaker 4: be you can feel worthy, and you can be completely
Speaker 4: happy as a single person. And for some people, you
Speaker 4: know that that's wonderful and great and that's how they
Speaker 4: should go forth and prosper sort of things. So I
Speaker 4: do feel like having that pressure that you have to
Speaker 4: meet someone, we really need to sort of roll that
Speaker 4: back and say to people you can be happy independently
Speaker 4: as an individual and living your best life and being worthy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you meet I meet a lot of people single,
Speaker 3: super happy, like not interested, which is good. I'm glad
Speaker 3: when I you know that they feel happy in themselves
Speaker 3: so they don't feel they need that partner.
Speaker 1: That's really good. Do you think about that? And actually
Speaker 1: there is hope for me yet.
Speaker 3: Of me being single. I will be every day every
Speaker 3: I've had a long time with the love of my life.
Speaker 1: Hello, long Lisa.
Speaker 3: This was so interesting. It's really as I said, you know,
Speaker 3: the two of us went total novices to this, so
Speaker 3: to having your insight was really fascinating. I hope. I
Speaker 3: hope that's given you some ideas as well, and to
Speaker 3: sort of think about what you think out there. You
Speaker 3: know of apps and you know, I don't know, to
Speaker 3: try the local pub insteading.
Speaker 1: Face to face. But you need you need confidence, You need.
Speaker 2: A bit of you know, stump up bit of and
Speaker 2: to be able to go, Okay, what am I actually what.
Speaker 1: Am I actually doing?
Speaker 2: And am I ready to be rejected you know by
Speaker 2: this person that I'm about to wander up and say, Hi,
Speaker 2: that's a long Yeah, it is.
Speaker 1: A lot, but I remember I've just had that. I've
Speaker 1: just had a memory, honey.
Speaker 2: And when Lolo was on the apps and the boys
Speaker 2: so our son and his partner, we're.
Speaker 1: All living together.
Speaker 2: It's probably during COVID actually, and Lolo was was. They
Speaker 2: were just on her to get onto the apps, remember
Speaker 2: that they were just the apps you can get and
Speaker 2: then guys would come up and then we'd all be
Speaker 2: crowding around her phone and going which lady is swipe
Speaker 2: yes or no? And I remember you were getting quite
Speaker 2: animated at one point, you know, So I guess the
Speaker 2: only time I've.
Speaker 3: Ever seen one like literally that was the one time
Speaker 3: that time seen.
Speaker 1: At one time in band camp.
Speaker 3: I've never seen anyone. And even then she hit it
Speaker 3: because it was her private things. Yes, of course, it
Speaker 3: was literally five minutes of like wait, wait, let me
Speaker 3: see it. And I was like, oh oh yeah.
Speaker 2: But I do understand the gamification of it. I've just
Speaker 2: learned that word, by the way, Ali taught me that word.
Speaker 2: But but you know, are these scores that come up
Speaker 2: like you've been on here every day like that?
Speaker 1: That's what it does.
Speaker 2: In my meditation app, It'll it'll say you, you know,
Speaker 2: did you meditate today?
Speaker 1: And yes, I did. Okay, move on otherwise you'll lose
Speaker 1: your score. Anyway.
Speaker 4: Luckily there's no scores on the dating apps.
Speaker 3: Oh could you imagine that's we don't want to go there. Yes,
Speaker 3: I think there's enough. It's fraught with enough. Oh, thank you, Lisa,
Speaker 3: thank you for your time. And you're smarts and all.
Speaker 1: In your work, your study. That's yeah, so good.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me.