1 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the heart of it. 2 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 2: We would like to acknowledge the Gadigor people of the 3 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,159 Speaker 2: Eor nation, the traditional custodians of this land, and we 4 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 2: pay our respects to the elders, both past and present. 5 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 2: I've got a great chat for you today, especially if 6 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 2: you're interested in the dating apps. 7 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 3: Which I think a lot of people are. I mean, 8 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 3: it's these days. It's as we mentioned, as you listen 9 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 3: in eight out of ten people are meeting on the apps. 10 00:00:57,720 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 3: That's a huge amount. 11 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 2: Yes, Doctor Lisa Portalain is with us. She's a dating 12 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 2: app expert. She's the author of the book. 13 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: Ten Ways to Find Love. She has a PhD on 14 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: dating apps and intimacy. I know and she does. She 15 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: brings some deep inside. 16 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 3: She knows her stuff. One of the things that is 17 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 3: going to trip you out, and you must listen in 18 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 3: is a paywall of hotties. It's going to make sense 19 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 3: when you listen, and it's going to shock the hell 20 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 3: out of you. 21 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: It's not something the American Republicans have built. 22 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 3: It is not. 23 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: It's not the war, it is not. 24 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 3: But AI and the apps have. 25 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:44,279 Speaker 1: Built a wall. We are talking safety concerns with dating 26 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: apps as well. As swipe fatigue. 27 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's not swiping, it's not cleaning. It's not 28 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 3: talking about cleaning. Might not go there. It is it 29 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 3: is swiping on the apps. It's a really interesting chat. 30 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 3: Please stay tuned and listen in. 31 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 2: Doctor Lisa Portalan has going to tell us all about 32 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 2: what she learned. 33 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:18,119 Speaker 1: Doctor Lisa Portal and welcome, Thank you so much, Thanks, 34 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:20,519 Speaker 1: thanks for coming in. This is fantastic. 35 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 3: It's a different it's a different thing to study, isn't 36 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,399 Speaker 3: it like this kind of the dating apps and intimacy? 37 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 3: I mean, I don't I can't think of anyone else 38 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:36,959 Speaker 3: that You're our first, Yes, specifically focus in on the 39 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 3: dating apps. But what a great thing to focus in on, 40 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 3: because it is here today, like eight out of ten 41 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 3: people seem to be meeting on the apps. So what 42 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 3: a great thing to talk about. 43 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 2: So the question is why why did you why did 44 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 2: you study right about the dating culture? 45 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 4: So I started back in twenty eighteen and I was 46 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 4: working in PR and I was sitting in this big 47 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 4: office with about, you know, thirty different people, and I 48 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 4: had been in a relationship for a very long time. 49 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 4: But all of these people around me, particularly young people, 50 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 4: were talking about how they had met someone online and 51 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 4: I got this message and this is what she said. 52 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 4: And then I met them in person and they weren't like, 53 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 4: you know, what the online presence was and all this 54 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 4: sort of stuff, And I thought, this is so curious. 55 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:31,639 Speaker 4: I thought, you know, back in the day, we were 56 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 4: all meeting face to face. 57 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, we're all having affairs in the office. Yes, those 58 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: eighteen people were probably all together. I work in an office. 59 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 4: Well, I I just thought to myself, Wow, this has 60 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 4: really changed the way people are dating and meeting and 61 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 4: falling in love and hookups, and nobody's studying it. Nobody's 62 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 4: considering how our relationships are put through this digital sieve. 63 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 4: And I thought, this is incredible that nobody's considering this 64 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 4: and the wider impact on society and culture and love. 65 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 4: And so when I proposed it as a PhD, there 66 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 4: were a lot of people that sort of thought it 67 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 4: was a bit too fluffy or you know, not something 68 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 4: that was very cool, the perfect yes, right, And so 69 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 4: it was hard to convince people that it was going 70 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 4: to be relevant at some point in time. So but 71 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 4: fast forward to today, and you know, as you said, 72 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 4: eight out of ten people are meeting online and it 73 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 4: has changed the way we conduct our relationships. 74 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 3: What is the most surprising thing that you discovered, Like 75 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 3: after your PhD, was there one thing that stood out 76 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 3: the most that you were shocked by? I think you know, 77 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 3: my PhD was conducted during COVID, so it was during 78 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 3: a lockdown period and people had nowhere else to actually meet. 79 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 3: They were very much they had to be meeting in 80 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 3: the dating app space, and it was a really difficult 81 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 3: period of time because people kind of felt like if 82 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 3: they were single, they felt like they'd missed out. It 83 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 3: was like the doors of closed, I'm never going to 84 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 3: meet anyone face to face. I may have missed my 85 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 3: opportunity of having a long term relationship, marriage, kids, hookups. 86 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 4: Whatever it might be. They felt like they'd missed the boat, 87 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 4: and they felt like they had to be in the 88 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 4: online domain. And that was a really emotional process for 89 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,359 Speaker 4: a lot of people because if you've ever been in 90 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 4: the online space on dating apps, it's tough. It's a 91 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 4: tough environment and people will describe it as death by 92 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 4: one hundred paper cuts sport. 93 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, So what is the tough just to describe or 94 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 2: elaborated on the toughness. 95 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 5: I think it's a. 96 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:57,919 Speaker 4: Lot of these microaggressions. There's hundreds of these microaggressions of 97 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 4: you know, meeting someone online, ghosted online, are having these 98 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 4: conversations online that are incredibly boring minutia being going face 99 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,720 Speaker 4: to face and discovering that the person is not who 100 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 4: you thought it was going to be. So it's all 101 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 4: of these tiny microaggressions that kind of lead up and 102 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 4: make people feel like I'm actually not going to be 103 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 4: able to meet anyone in the future, and love has 104 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 4: sort of passed me by. 105 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 3: One of my dearest friends has been on the apps, 106 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 3: tried all of them, the rays, the bumble, the tenders, 107 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 3: they done it all. And I'm sure you hear this 108 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 3: all the time because I certainly do too. Is like 109 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 3: I have to take a break, which she's just I'm 110 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 3: off all the apps right now because I just need to, 111 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 3: because it becomes it's not necessarily addiction, but it's that 112 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 3: fatigue and just that starting over another conversation and starting 113 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 3: over another one, and then, as you say, the ghosting, 114 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 3: and then it's just the amount of energy it takes 115 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 3: to be on there sometimes just feels overwhelming. We never 116 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 3: did it, We've never done it, So where we don't know, 117 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 3: you know what, I can empathize it, we can't sort 118 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 3: of relate in. 119 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 2: That when your friend says that she's she needs a break, 120 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 2: is that because she needs a break from actually physically 121 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 2: dating the people or is it the time spent on 122 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 2: the phone. 123 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 3: It's time spent on the phone, it's the ghosting, it's 124 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 3: the it's the getting. You know, you're going down one 125 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 3: path with someone and then they say something really gross 126 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 3: and you're like, Okay, that's the end of that one. 127 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 3: Back to square one, back to square one. 128 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, So this is a really common occurrence. So people 129 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:43,679 Speaker 4: have a very cyclical experience with dating apps. They will 130 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 4: download multiple different dating apps Bumble, Tinder, Hinge, and be 131 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 4: across all of those different platforms. It will be very busy. 132 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 4: They'll be sending direct messages, chatting all that sort of stuff, 133 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 4: and then, like you said, there will be all these 134 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 4: bits and pieces in the mix. Something think really gross 135 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 4: has been said, someone's ghosted you, someone's not met you 136 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 4: in person. And then people think, I can't deal with 137 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 4: this anymore. I'm going off the apps, so I'm going 138 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 4: to delete all of the apps. And then they'll spend 139 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 4: a period of time like a bit of a detox 140 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 4: away from the apps, and it'll be a couple of 141 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 4: months and they won't meet anyone face to face, and 142 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 4: then they will cycle back on. 143 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 6: Right. 144 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 4: So it's kind of a cyclical process with dating apps, 145 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 4: and a lot of people would say the longest relationship 146 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 4: I ended up having was actually with the dating apps 147 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 4: as opposed to an actual person. 148 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, Well, what. 149 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: Did you have an idea of what the biggest misconception 150 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 1: is around dating apps? 151 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 4: M oh? I think the tough one is that people 152 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 4: go on dating apps for something, whether it is they're 153 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 4: on the dating apps for a hookup and intimacy, the 154 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 4: love of their life. It'll vary, right, but they're expecting 155 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 4: to come to some sort of conclusion from an intimacy perspective. 156 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 4: But what actually ends up happening is it tends to be, 157 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 4: as you mentioned, a lot of work, so people will 158 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 4: describe it as a second job as opposed to actually 159 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 4: getting to whatever their end goal is, whether it's the 160 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 4: relationship or the hookup, or it's just a lot of. 161 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 3: Noise, right, yeah, have or do you feel in what 162 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 3: way dating apps have changed the way that we define 163 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 3: love or define attraction. 164 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, I often say to people, I think dating apps 165 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 4: are kind of like the uber eats of relationships. Right, 166 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 4: you can constantly be consuming on dating apps, and there's 167 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 4: always someone else on the other side, so you can 168 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,839 Speaker 4: never do tend to completely. You can always keep swiping, 169 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 4: and there is always the potential of the grass being 170 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 4: greener or some someone else, which means, I guess it 171 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 4: translates into a consumption of love and disposability at the 172 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 4: same time. So a lot of people as a result 173 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 4: end up tying their bonds loosely because they are expecting 174 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 4: that they can unravel that bond quickly. And it is 175 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:23,199 Speaker 4: that sense of the dating apps in terms of this 176 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 4: constant rollerdex of different partners and relationships and the idea 177 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 4: that there could be someone else that's a better match 178 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 4: for you out there. 179 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:38,079 Speaker 3: You're not painting a pretty picturely, it's just visualizing the 180 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 3: rollerdecks again. But I've got like twenty other girls I've 181 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 3: already matched with. 182 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 2: Now, would you invest in emotionally and take the chance? 183 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 2: You know when I guess what you're saying when you 184 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 2: say the grass is greener and statements like that that 185 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 2: it would it would you protection of your own heart 186 00:10:58,760 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 2: would come into it. 187 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 4: Absolutely, absolutely, and I think it's sort of there is 188 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 4: an issue in terms of with love, as you would know, 189 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 4: you have to choose someone. That's really the essence of it. 190 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 4: At some point in time, you have to choose someone 191 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 4: and go Okay, might not be my utter perfect match, 192 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 4: but you have to move You have to work on 193 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 4: the different elements to keep the relationship going. While as 194 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 4: dating apps tend to encourage this idea that you can 195 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 4: just keep moving on to the next person, uh and 196 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 4: moving through all those different matches, when in reality it 197 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 4: negates that idea that you have to choose one person 198 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:40,319 Speaker 4: to build an intimacy. 199 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 3: Do you find that that's exactly the same across both 200 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 3: sexes as well. 201 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 5: Or a. 202 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 3: Men a little bit more inclined to use it just 203 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 3: as like a hookupy thing and just like sail through 204 00:11:57,800 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 3: where women are a little bit more on the side 205 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 3: of love. 206 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:00,959 Speaker 1: Yeah. 207 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 4: Look, I think there was a mix in my focus 208 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:06,079 Speaker 4: groups and interviews, so definitely there were men that were 209 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 4: looking for hookups, but there were also women that were 210 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 4: looking for hookups as well and long term relationships. So 211 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 4: I think it's I think it's a bit of a mix, 212 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 4: and I think the really interesting thing about my research 213 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 4: was that while people were still hooking up, there was 214 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 4: still this idea of the end game and this idea 215 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 4: of this big love within the mix. Like the majority 216 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 4: of people in my research thought at some point in time, 217 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 4: this big love would eventuate for them, which sort of 218 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 4: like harks back to this idea. You know that, you 219 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 4: know that narrative and fiction and movies and rom coms 220 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 4: and all that sort of stuff has created for us. 221 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 4: The theory is someone out there for us at the end. 222 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 4: And this was kind of an ongoing theme within my work. 223 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 2: I just coming back to that that coming you made 224 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 2: before that in love you end up having to make 225 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:05,079 Speaker 2: make a choice, and with that choice you have to 226 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 2: learn acceptance and patience, because if you're on this this 227 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 2: app or there's all this choice there for you, it's like, yeah, 228 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 2: I just move on. Yeah, it's too hard. I had 229 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:18,679 Speaker 2: a friend of ours when we're living in the States, 230 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,559 Speaker 2: and he was very picky with I don't I think 231 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 2: he did the apps, but he was very picky about. 232 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:27,439 Speaker 1: Who he chose. And he was forty years old at. 233 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 2: That point, and he he brings someone over and be 234 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 2: like that she's nice, and he'd be. 235 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: Like, yeah, but she does this and does that. I'm like, dude, 236 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: you never are you ever going to find someone perfect? 237 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: I mean even OL's pretty close to perfect. But you know, 238 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 1: I'll turn it on myself. 239 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 6: Actually, Okay, you know maybe, but now there's there's things 240 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 6: that we have to be patient with, and that's going 241 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 6: to be more patient with me. 242 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 2: But yeah, absolutely. 243 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 4: I don't know if you've ever watched the Netflix series 244 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 4: around the Indian Matchmaker. I absolutely love it. 245 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 3: I've seen the trailer for it. 246 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 4: Yes, Auntie Seima, she's out there matchmaking people and one 247 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 4: of her golden rules is that seventy percent is close enough. 248 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 4: So if you meet someone that has seventy percent of 249 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 4: your requirements, then that's close enough and the rest you 250 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 4: can build on during the term of your relationship, which 251 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 4: I think is absolutely fantastic and a great idea on 252 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 4: what we should base our relationships around. But certainly, you know, 253 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 4: the era of dating apps means that there is this 254 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 4: sort of sense, a greater sense of judgment, and a 255 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 4: lot of my participants would talk about how the dating 256 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 4: apps had made them more judgmental, and this was because 257 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 4: you know, obviously, dating apps are based on esthetics, so 258 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 4: you know, they encourage a real visual economy. So if 259 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 4: we were to meet face to face, we'd be taking 260 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 4: on all these different prompts. You know, the tone of 261 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 4: someone's voice, are they funny, are they smart? All sorts 262 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 4: of bits and pieces. But on the dating apps, you 263 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 4: basically you have that visual prompt of their image and 264 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 4: you either swipe right or left based on that, which 265 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 4: encourages this judgment in a second, of terms of whether 266 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 4: or not you're compatible based on appearance. People would also 267 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 4: talk about, you know, when they were in the DM chat, 268 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 4: the direct message chat with these people, if they said 269 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 4: one thing that might give them the equal was a 270 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 4: little bit odd, they just quickly unmatch them and move 271 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 4: on because there's this constant stream of individuals that you 272 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 4: could be connecting with. So there was definitely this sense 273 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 4: that there was a greater judgment involved. Now on the dating. 274 00:15:55,400 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 2: Apps, you mentioned that you've said swiping a few times. Now, 275 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 2: I imagine with all the choice, there will be a 276 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 2: lot of a lot of a lot of opportunities to swipe. 277 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 2: And I was reading your stuff before, I'm talking about 278 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 2: swipe fatigue. Yes, So you know, how do we how 279 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 2: do people how do we I'm not doing it? 280 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: How do how do people avoid that? 281 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a really tricky one, right. So you know, 282 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 4: we have to keep in mind that dating apps are 283 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 4: fairly gamer fight, right, so they're there to keep you 284 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 4: in the mix, and they're not really there as much 285 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 4: as you know. There are dating apps that are designed 286 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 4: to be deleted, they're really not like the The main 287 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 4: aim is to keep you on the dating app, right, 288 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 4: So people talk about going into infinite swipes, so they'll 289 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 4: just be this wiping away because it becomes almost like 290 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 4: a bit of a game to them. And there are 291 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 4: all these different gamified elements. You know, you can buy 292 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 4: roses for people, you can boost your profile to more people. 293 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 4: There's all these different components that sort of gather people 294 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:23,719 Speaker 4: up in sort of a gaming sort of environment. And 295 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 4: then on top of that, there's the dopamine hits, which 296 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 4: I think you mentioned a little bit in terms of 297 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,679 Speaker 4: you know, people feeling that they do match with someone 298 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 4: and they have a little chat and there's that little 299 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 4: boost in the ego and the sense of self, and 300 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 4: there's the dopamine hit from that which people get addicted to. 301 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 4: And then there's also the drops in terms of the 302 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 4: not matching or the unmatching, or the comments that are 303 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,400 Speaker 4: just a little bit gross, and so it creates that 304 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 4: kind of rollercoaster ride that you would experience with any 305 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:00,880 Speaker 4: kind of addiction. Really, people do become a to the platform. 306 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 4: So if you have to get away from that infinite swipe, 307 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 4: you have to go onto the app with a real 308 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:12,880 Speaker 4: specific purpose and really set up parameters around what exactly 309 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 4: you're doing here, how long you're going to spend on 310 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 4: the app, what you're going to accept, and when you're 311 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 4: going to leave as well. 312 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 3: Is there one particular app? I mean, I know this 313 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 3: is I don't know if you're even allowed to say this, 314 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,919 Speaker 3: but is there one that you in your study that 315 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 3: feels the most clear, genuine, better app to be on. 316 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 4: I wouldn't say there is. They're all fairly similar. And 317 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,399 Speaker 4: you know, my research in particular focused on Tinder and 318 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 4: Bumble because Tinder was the first sort of heterosexual dating 319 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 4: app that was out there, I think back in twenty ten, 320 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,160 Speaker 4: and people sort of when they think of dating apps, 321 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 4: they gravitate towards Tinder, and Bumble was created not long 322 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,239 Speaker 4: after there, but the focus was obviously on women and 323 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 4: providing women the opportunity to make the first move. So 324 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 4: back in the day, Tinder was considered a bit of 325 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 4: the brow app and Bumble was the feminist app, so 326 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 4: it was kind of like assessing two different ends of 327 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 4: the spectrum. But in reality, a lot of the dating 328 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 4: apps are very similar. The behaviors that go on are 329 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:28,400 Speaker 4: very similar, and people tend to have profiles on multiple 330 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 4: different dating apps to kind of, you know, keep their 331 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 4: options open, so to speak. So I wouldn't say there's 332 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 4: necessarily any dating apps that are particularly better or worse. Certainly, 333 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 4: you know, these days we're seeing a growth in subscriptions 334 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 4: around dating apps as well, so this concept of you know, 335 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 4: locking up the hotties or putting people behind a paywall 336 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 4: who are more who would be a better match for 337 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 4: you as well, So that's all, you know, you've got 338 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 4: to think about this part. 339 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 3: I heard you talk about this is a trip, Yes, 340 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 3: so explain that a little bit more like if we 341 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 3: just use the basic version and then you're looking because 342 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 3: people have said why am I matching with people that 343 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 3: are like I would never in a million years, And 344 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 3: it's like, where are. 345 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: We locked them up? You got to pay for those? 346 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and who judges that who decides who's. 347 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 4: On the probably, well, that's that's exactly it. 348 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 3: Right. 349 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 4: So back in the day it was a different kind 350 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 4: of ball game in terms of dating apps, and you're 351 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 4: probably more likely to be able to match with someone 352 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,479 Speaker 4: who is who you're after and sort of meets the 353 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 4: requirements that you're after. And these days there's a big 354 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 4: push around the subscriptions and signing up to these premium 355 00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 4: packages to seeing your best matches who can be kind 356 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,919 Speaker 4: of locked up behind this pay wall of sorts. And 357 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 4: as you raise a very interesting question, who defines who 358 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 4: the hotties are because we don't all think the same 359 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:15,919 Speaker 4: people are us exactly right, it is likely an AI 360 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,400 Speaker 4: type of function in terms of, well, Lisa swipes right 361 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 4: consistently on this type of. 362 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: Person, we're going to lock them away. 363 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 4: And so that this person is going to be locked 364 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 4: away and she has to pay her thirty dollars a 365 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 4: month to be able to see these people. 366 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 3: That feels like blackmail. It's a kind of blackmail, right, 367 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 3: Like you pay more and you might get more of 368 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 3: a chance of meeting your mate. 369 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 4: That's right, that's so bad. People really object to paying 370 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 4: for love. 371 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 2: Yes, but I always thought the whole idea of this, 372 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 2: which I didn't mind, the idea of this that instead 373 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 2: of going to your regular pub, you know, where you 374 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 2: know everyone's going to be, you're going to be introduced 375 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 2: to a cross section of people that you would never 376 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,120 Speaker 2: come across. Yes, so you know, it'd be like sort 377 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,199 Speaker 2: of dating in New York City, as I imagine that 378 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 2: to be where you don't know really what anybody does. 379 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 2: You don't know where they live, what car they drive. 380 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 2: Most of them don't have a car, you know, but 381 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 2: it's a pretty wide, very field in that in Manhattan. 382 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 1: Yes, And. 383 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 2: That's what I thought the dating apps were all about, 384 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,639 Speaker 2: that you're going to actually meet someone that you ordinarily 385 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 2: wouldn't come. 386 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: Across in your daily work life or social life. So 387 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 1: that's that. 388 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 2: Doesn't what you're suggesting here, That doesn't seem to be 389 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:38,399 Speaker 2: the case. 390 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 4: Well, look, I think there are two things can be 391 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:43,879 Speaker 4: true at the same time, right, And I do think 392 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 4: that at the end of the day, where I'm always 393 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 4: i feel like I'm dating apps as big as detract us. 394 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 4: Sometimes I'm always sort of talking about the negatives. But 395 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 4: I do think that it does open up a whole 396 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,879 Speaker 4: cross section of people that you wouldn't ordinary meet. So 397 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 4: you know, if we were back in the day, it 398 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 4: was sort of you know, a family and friends would 399 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 4: introduce us to people. We'd meet people through the office, 400 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 4: so we kind of had a closed circle of who 401 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 4: we would come into contact with, while as dating apps 402 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 4: kind of open up that circle so you could meet 403 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,959 Speaker 4: someone in a different city for example. You know, think 404 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 4: about people that are living in regional places in Australia 405 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 4: as well, who have you know, a very sort of 406 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 4: closed circuit of people have an opportunity to meet someone 407 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,159 Speaker 4: you know somewhere else all together. So there are a 408 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,679 Speaker 4: lot of positives in the mix too, and you know 409 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 4: that can certainly, you know, as as mentioned, eight out 410 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 4: of ten people are meeting on dating apps these days, 411 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,719 Speaker 4: and there are a lot of relationships and marriages that 412 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 4: come out of dating apps. But certainly for people, for 413 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,919 Speaker 4: the majority of people, it does feel like they have 414 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:57,959 Speaker 4: to sift through a lot of these toxic sort of 415 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,479 Speaker 4: issues in the background before or they eventually get to 416 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 4: someone who is their match. 417 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:08,879 Speaker 2: Yes, it sounds like sounds like the casting in Los Angeles, 418 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 2: like because everyone was flocking from all over the world 419 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 2: to go to Los Angeles to act, but you know, 420 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 2: it was everyone there, so the casting directors really had 421 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 2: to be the gatekeeper and the cream would rise, but 422 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 2: you had to sift through a lot of different different people. 423 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 3: What are some of the common mistakes that people make 424 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 3: on dating apps? 425 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,920 Speaker 4: Well, I think one of the really common mistakes is 426 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 4: not presenting yourself as who you are. So I think, 427 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 4: you know, definitely the platforms encourage you to put your 428 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,880 Speaker 4: best foot forwards, so you know, you want to put 429 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 4: the best images of yourself up and the best description 430 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 4: and all that sort of stuff, because you're conscious that 431 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 4: you are trading in a visual economy and that's the 432 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,880 Speaker 4: first thing that people are going to see. But one 433 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,880 Speaker 4: of the critical issues around dating apps is obviously around 434 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:04,639 Speaker 4: authenticity and you know, actually connecting with someone who says 435 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 4: who they say they are and vice versa yourself at 436 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 4: the same time. So I guess, you know, putting that 437 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 4: sort of more authentic self forward is probably the best approach, 438 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 4: but people feel like they have to put forward a 439 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 4: pseudo version of Lisa or the best version of Lisa. 440 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,400 Speaker 2: This is tricky because when you say, you know, if 441 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 2: I'm putting my best foot forward to the app, and 442 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 2: then I'm being rejected by no one's picking me out, 443 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 2: no one's swiping, whichever way the tick is. Explain how 444 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 2: fear of rejection plays a part in the dating apps, 445 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 2: and what can in your studies and what you found out, 446 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,719 Speaker 2: what can people do in order to just sort of 447 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:55,639 Speaker 2: deal with that better. 448 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 4: I think this is a really interesting question because fear 449 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 4: of rejection came up a lot, and it came up 450 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 4: a lot in terms of why people were using dating apps. 451 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 4: So they would say, being rejected on a dating app is, 452 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,199 Speaker 4: you know, one of those many paper cuts that you 453 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 4: experience on a dating app, But being rejected face to 454 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 4: face is a completely different ballgame. And I don't feel 455 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 4: like I can be rejected face to face anymore. So 456 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 4: there was that was a big, a big pathway in 457 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 4: terms of why they were using dating apps in particular. 458 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:39,959 Speaker 4: But certainly I think that people would often talk about 459 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 4: how dating apps would make them feel, and often they 460 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 4: would say things like dating apps make me feel really 461 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 4: shit about myself. Like, prior to this experience, I thought 462 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,199 Speaker 4: I was okay, you know, I thought that I was 463 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 4: fairly attractive, you know, I had a good job, and funny, 464 00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 4: all these sorts of bits and pieces, and then I 465 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 4: got on the dating apps and it was crickets and 466 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 4: you know, I feel pretty low about myself. My self 467 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 4: esteem has definitely dropped as a result of this experience. 468 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 4: And this is all part, I guess to some degree 469 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 4: of that addiction in terms of there are the big 470 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,120 Speaker 4: dopamine hits and then there are lows, and you get 471 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 4: stuck on this roller coaster of emotions. 472 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 3: Do you think they're here to stay? I mean, or 473 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 3: are we ever going to go back to meeting the 474 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:32,360 Speaker 3: love of your life at a nightclub? 475 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,159 Speaker 4: I do think that they're here to stay. 476 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 3: I do. 477 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:40,640 Speaker 4: Did you meet a nightclub? 478 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,880 Speaker 3: Or we did? We did? 479 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 4: We did? I do think they're here to stay because 480 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 4: they do open up this cross section of people to you. 481 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,159 Speaker 4: And you know, we all lead such busy lives that 482 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 4: you know, it's just easy to jump online who you 483 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,679 Speaker 4: can meet. And I do think that we have lost 484 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,439 Speaker 4: to some degree a lot of the soft skills that 485 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 4: it takes to actually converse with people in public and 486 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 4: meet to build up an intimacy. Even you know, flirting 487 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 4: or just striking up a conversation with a stranger are 488 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:24,239 Speaker 4: all for example, gen z are all things that you 489 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:28,399 Speaker 4: know they're not familiar with because they have interacted for 490 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 4: the most part in an online domain, whether it's through 491 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 4: dating apps, whether it's for friendships, whether it's for gaming, 492 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 4: the majority of it's happened in that online space, and 493 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 4: they've kind of lost that those face to face elements, 494 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 4: which is actually very sad, but I do think that 495 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 4: they are here to stay moving forward. 496 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 3: Our nineteen year old is she's not on the dating apps, 497 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 3: but like when she meets someone, you just get their 498 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 3: snap from Snapchat. You get their snap and then you 499 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 3: start conversing. Still, yes, so it's still through text, it's 500 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 3: still through your phone, so it's not just like let's 501 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 3: just meet and then they might meet up, but it's 502 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 3: still yeah, as you were saying, it's still through an 503 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 3: extra thing in between them, that screen. 504 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 4: It's still absolutely and whether it's through TikTok or Instagram 505 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 4: or whatever platform it might be. So that whole sort 506 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 4: of preliminary discussion is kind of conducted in the online space, 507 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 4: and certainly it does take out that element of that 508 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 4: fear of rejection, for example, but there was also a 509 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 4: bit of a gap for people sometimes in terms of 510 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 4: you know, they would have been chatting to someone online 511 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 4: for a period of time and had built up an 512 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 4: image of what that person would be like, and then 513 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 4: they would meet them in person and very rarely would 514 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 4: the person actually match what they had experienced in that 515 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 4: online space. So there's that gap between you know, our 516 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 4: digital presence and who we are in real life as well, 517 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 4: which is difficult to bridge. 518 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 3: What's the TikTok trend and how that does that shape relationship. 519 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 4: TikTok okay, So you know, in terms of TikTok, a 520 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 4: lot of people these days believe it or not get 521 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 4: their relationship advice from TikTok, which you know is somewhat surreal. 522 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 4: I think, you know, you would think that, you know, 523 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 4: you would get your relationship advice from you know, friends 524 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 4: or parents or relatives or your counselor. 525 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 3: Or a psychologist or you know, whoever it might be. 526 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 4: But people do go to TikTok and there's all sorts 527 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 4: of you know, relationship influences within the mix that apout 528 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 4: all types of advice. But as you can imagine, with TikTok, 529 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 4: you've literally got three seconds to grab people. So people 530 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 4: move on to the next thing on TikTok within three seconds. 531 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 4: So that sort of thing exasperates the need to say 532 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 4: something that is in essence clickbait, like something that is 533 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 4: really out there to grab people quickly. And as we know, 534 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 4: within the relationship space, it's often very nuanced, so it's 535 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 4: not as clear as you know, one catchphrase or a 536 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 4: sentence that's going to resolve an issue or tell you 537 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 4: how to meet someone. It's often much more complex than that. 538 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 4: So often these TikTok trends, whether they're beijes flags, red flags, 539 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 4: you know, the black cattle, labrador energy, or whatever you 540 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 4: want to call it, they're just these kind of trends 541 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 4: that people gravitate towards, and I guess to some degree 542 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 4: can conflate into something that's actually real that they can 543 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 4: apply in real life, like quickly. 544 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: Yes, and it is. 545 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 2: I guess there's a dopamine hit off that too. 546 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely absolutely, But there is there's so much complexity 547 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 4: in in relationships. It's not as easy as saying it's 548 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 4: just this one thing that's going to make your relationship work, 549 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 4: or mean that you're going to meet the love of 550 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 4: your life. It's actually very complex, which doesn't tend to 551 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 4: lend itself towards TikTok or Instagram or things that are 552 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 4: quick and fast and easy to consume. 553 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 5: I guess yeah, Lisa, and I know you have a partner. 554 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 2: If by chance, you found yourself out as a single 555 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 2: person again, would you use a dating app? 556 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 1: Well, that's a. 557 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 4: Really good question. I don't know if I would. I 558 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 4: would probably prefer to meet someone organically and face to face. 559 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 4: And I think that, you know, through my profession and 560 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 4: through also my research, I've had so much opportunity to 561 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 4: talk to people and you know, through focus groups interviews 562 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 4: about intimacy and relationships, and I think that you know 563 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 4: the magic of unpicking someone or understanding someone, whether it's 564 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:16,239 Speaker 4: from a relationship perspective, even a friendship, those sorts of 565 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 4: skills in the face to face environment, the nuances, the 566 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 4: depth that you get is so much deeper and richer. 567 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 4: So I don't think I would. 568 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 3: If you could create a dating app, what do you 569 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 3: think it would be like? What would what features would 570 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 3: you have on it? 571 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 4: Well, I certainly wouldn't lock up the hotting. So I 572 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 4: think that people object to paying for love right critically, 573 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 4: people think that love should be organic. Yeah, that's like 574 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 4: a primary understanding of what love is, so I wouldn't 575 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 4: have the subscription based model built in. That's the key part. 576 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 4: I think that there is something around the static imagery 577 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 4: that really throws people off. And I think that people 578 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 4: want to see motion, and they want to see how 579 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,760 Speaker 4: people talk, use their hands, smile, like all those different 580 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 4: elements that build up what a person is actually like. 581 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 4: So I think the video content is really instrumental, and 582 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,839 Speaker 4: I do think to some degree that's why people really 583 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 4: gravitate to TikTok for example. Right, So I would lose 584 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 4: a lot of the static elements. I think I would 585 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 4: provide for you know, greater descriptions around people as well, 586 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 4: and they're a bit more around their character, which I 587 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 4: think that people don't gravitate towards reading anything anymore these days. Right, 588 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 4: So it's difficult from that sort of component. But the 589 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,840 Speaker 4: other part is I would try to build in some 590 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 4: sort of face to face element because I think it's 591 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 4: really difficult to create that initial intimacy within an online 592 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 4: environment because there is a gap between who we are 593 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 4: from a digital perspective and who we are in real life, 594 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 4: and sometimes those things that in real life, you know, 595 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 4: the uglier parts of who we are, the things that 596 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 4: are not so great are actually the bits and pieces 597 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 4: that end up building up and intimacy. 598 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,520 Speaker 3: Do you see a difference the way generations use the 599 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,760 Speaker 3: app you know, from the twenty year olds to the 600 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,440 Speaker 3: forty fifty, sixty and beyond, are they using them differently? 601 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, I would say, for example, dating apps really came 602 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 4: into being for gen Y and gen X, right, and 603 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 4: certainly gen Y and gen X are probably a generation 604 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 4: that are you know, into more of who was hot 605 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 4: and who's not. You know, that's the time that Facebook 606 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 4: and was really created. While as for example, millennials tend 607 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:58,520 Speaker 4: to be more values based and less based on those 608 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 4: sort of visual prompts than Gen X and gen why 609 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,719 Speaker 4: were and as you sort of mentioned, they tend to 610 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 4: engage a little bit less with dating apps. So dating 611 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 4: apps have not done a great job with millennials. Millennials 612 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 4: are more likely to use social media and other platforms 613 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 4: to connect as opposed to dating apps. I think to 614 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:22,440 Speaker 4: an older generation, it's a very complex space in terms 615 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,399 Speaker 4: of entering this space after you've been in a long 616 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 4: term relationship is very difficult, and part of it is 617 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 4: also around the disposability of it all. So within my 618 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 4: sort of the older cohort of people. They'd say to me, 619 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:41,239 Speaker 4: you know, back in the day when I was in 620 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:44,800 Speaker 4: my twenties, I might go on a date every couple 621 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 4: of months, and you know, I had more of an 622 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 4: incentive to kind of make it work. I'd go on 623 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 4: the second date even if things weren't utterly perfect, because 624 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 4: I knew that there wasn't going to be someone just 625 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 4: around the corner. While as now, they're in these platform 626 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 4: where they can go on a date every week or 627 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,359 Speaker 4: every other day if they want to. So it does 628 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:10,720 Speaker 4: increase that element of disposability, which I guess is really 629 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 4: difficult to come to terms with. 630 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 1: Here's so much pressure. 631 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:16,839 Speaker 2: I remember we had a friend in the States who 632 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 2: was she was doing it, and she would go on 633 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,760 Speaker 2: coffee dates and things like that, and she was quite 634 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:31,120 Speaker 2: let's say, judge, judge, judicious, you know, and she would 635 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 2: have these quick dates with them, and I just thought 636 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 2: if I was on the end, if I was on 637 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,759 Speaker 2: the receiving end of that, I know I would be 638 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,319 Speaker 2: able to feel that and that wouldn't be great for me, 639 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:40,760 Speaker 2: you know, if. 640 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,400 Speaker 1: That was it would be it would be really tricky. 641 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,480 Speaker 3: On the on the flip side of that though, just 642 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:50,319 Speaker 3: thinking also I think I know, I mean, I know 643 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 3: who you're talking about. And I think those first dates 644 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,879 Speaker 3: as a female, you're literally checking out. Am I going 645 00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 3: is this person going to murder me? Like she would 646 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 3: she would tell you know, this is where I'm going 647 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,239 Speaker 3: to be. She'd tell us that I'm going to be here, 648 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 3: this is what his name is, you know, and like 649 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:08,840 Speaker 3: we would say, do you want us to be in 650 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,319 Speaker 3: the same coffee shop as you? Just in case? You know, 651 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,920 Speaker 3: so there is there's that for women, that's what's in 652 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:15,879 Speaker 3: the back of their minds. 653 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:16,840 Speaker 1: Plus it was America. 654 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. 655 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. 656 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 4: The safety discussion is a really important one, particularly for 657 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 4: women and more vulnerable groups. And there was a study 658 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 4: done by i think the Australian Institute of Criminology a 659 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,560 Speaker 4: couple of years ago that demonstrated that three out of 660 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:37,440 Speaker 4: four people that use dating apps actually have some sort 661 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 4: of violent abusive experience with the dating apps, whether it 662 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 4: is you know, receiving disgusting messages, images that are unsolicited, 663 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:52,280 Speaker 4: down to things that are that are violent face to face, 664 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 4: and you know, even people within my focus groups and 665 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:59,880 Speaker 4: my interviews would describe these things, whether it was you know, 666 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:05,160 Speaker 4: something you know receiving quite a rude message, or you know, 667 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,240 Speaker 4: sitting on the bus and suddenly opening up their phone 668 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 4: and receiving a dick pick just being like so shocked 669 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,319 Speaker 4: that suddenly this was the image that they had come 670 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,319 Speaker 4: across down to you. You know, I had someone within 671 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,799 Speaker 4: my focus group who was stalked by someone they had 672 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,240 Speaker 4: met on a dating app, who had then gone about 673 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,720 Speaker 4: actually putting together their lives through their Instagram and social 674 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 4: media profiles and ended up going to their house. So 675 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:37,400 Speaker 4: there is a massive safety issue for dating apps. And 676 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,480 Speaker 4: dating apps have put in place this voluntary code in 677 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 4: Australia in terms of doing better to protect vulnerable groups, 678 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 4: but certainly it continues to be a major issue. 679 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 2: I was working on a show, a musical theater show, 680 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,759 Speaker 2: and this was back in twenty twelve, and one of 681 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 2: the guys in the com he was gussing himself up 682 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,480 Speaker 2: after a show and he came running in. He goes, look, 683 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:08,000 Speaker 2: look look at this. This is I'm going to go 684 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:09,840 Speaker 2: get I'm getting lucky tonight. 685 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:12,400 Speaker 1: So how do you how do you do that? 686 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,879 Speaker 2: And he goes, this is is grinder and he's tell 687 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 2: me about the app, the grinder app, you know, and 688 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 2: so that was back then, so we've evolved, you know, 689 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 2: at well past a decade beyond that. Is there a 690 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:34,440 Speaker 2: difference or did you research a difference between those the 691 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,400 Speaker 2: gay apps and the and the hetero apps. 692 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,879 Speaker 4: Yeah, so I did have quite a few people within 693 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,640 Speaker 4: my focus groups and interviews that were men and we're 694 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 4: queer and we're on grind during Scruff and Tinder, and 695 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:52,200 Speaker 4: you know, it was very much more transactional and about sex, 696 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,560 Speaker 4: and I think to the point where Tinder was often 697 00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:01,719 Speaker 4: more perceived as the relationship app as opposed, for example, Grinder, 698 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,400 Speaker 4: which is kind of the opposite from a heterosexual perspective 699 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,360 Speaker 4: in terms of tender is a bit more like the 700 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 4: meat market. But the other thing that came up a 701 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:15,080 Speaker 4: lot was, I think, and this is a really difficult 702 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 4: thing to talk about, that sexual racism as well. So 703 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 4: you know, Asian queer men on dating apps, you know, 704 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 4: not being able to find any sort of match because 705 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:33,719 Speaker 4: that there was this real stigma around Asian men. So 706 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:35,960 Speaker 4: for example, a lot of people back in the day 707 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:40,520 Speaker 4: would write things like no Asians just a preference on 708 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,759 Speaker 4: their Grinder profile. So there was a real kind of 709 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:49,439 Speaker 4: stigmatization and sexual racism within the mix that was very 710 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:54,640 Speaker 4: disturbing to some degree, and to read that if Yeah, absolutely, 711 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:59,600 Speaker 4: absolutely so. There was a lot of different lenses within 712 00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,600 Speaker 4: the quick space that could be applied, but definitely, you know, 713 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,600 Speaker 4: it was much more about sex. It was much more 714 00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:10,560 Speaker 4: transactional than it was from a heterosexual perspective. 715 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,799 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's more. That's more the understanding anyway of 716 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 3: those particular apps. From what my understanding is that it 717 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:23,880 Speaker 3: is that it's transactional, with a consent that it is transactional. 718 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I absolutely agree that that's the case, 719 00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:29,200 Speaker 4: and I think, as you said, there's a consent that 720 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:31,520 Speaker 4: it is transactional. But I do think that over time 721 00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,719 Speaker 4: it can also become a burden in terms of, you know, 722 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:39,640 Speaker 4: having to participate in this kind of culture of you know, 723 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:46,000 Speaker 4: consistent transactional sex and wanting perhaps for more as well, 724 00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:49,920 Speaker 4: wanting for different narratives within the mix and not having 725 00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:54,279 Speaker 4: them available because there is very much an idea of 726 00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 4: what you know, a queer man should be doing at 727 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:03,000 Speaker 4: a certain point as well. Also, it can be Yeah, 728 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:05,759 Speaker 4: I think it can be quite can become quite a 729 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:07,399 Speaker 4: burden over time, And. 730 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:11,800 Speaker 3: Would it be would it be a real negative tool 731 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:16,520 Speaker 3: in one sense for this is across you know, queer, straight, gay, 732 00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:21,279 Speaker 3: whatever that with the sexual addiction, is that something that 733 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,239 Speaker 3: the apps would feed that in negative way? 734 00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, So I think it's kind of like any sort 735 00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,200 Speaker 4: of addiction, right, you know, and a bit like you know, 736 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,360 Speaker 4: the dopamine hits that we were kind of talking about 737 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:40,120 Speaker 4: in terms of those easy transactions and just those massive 738 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,480 Speaker 4: sort of ego boosts, however they might be. And definitely 739 00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:46,960 Speaker 4: I think that dating apps can feed into that and 740 00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,480 Speaker 4: can provide that, and you know, there's an easy accessibility, 741 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,160 Speaker 4: and you can fall into that trap of just consistently 742 00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:58,680 Speaker 4: just going through a person after person after person, which 743 00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:01,720 Speaker 4: is as you mentioned, or fine when there's consent and 744 00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:03,960 Speaker 4: you know everyone's there to have a good time and 745 00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:05,719 Speaker 4: all that sort of stuff. But I think at some 746 00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:10,000 Speaker 4: point in time it also becomes it can become an 747 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,560 Speaker 4: issue and can become an addiction of sorts as well. 748 00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,160 Speaker 3: As you said, like the uber eats of yes. 749 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:20,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Lisa, what is your what's your go to 750 00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:26,200 Speaker 2: advice for people who are disclose to giving up and 751 00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:27,800 Speaker 2: adopting a dog. 752 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,480 Speaker 1: Instead get the dog? 753 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,560 Speaker 4: No, I think I go to advice would be and 754 00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:40,120 Speaker 4: I always, I always go back to this. I think 755 00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,719 Speaker 4: that you know, in contemporary culture, there's a real focus 756 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,920 Speaker 4: around finding the love of your life. Yea, And we 757 00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:52,000 Speaker 4: live in twenty twenty five, and you know, we think 758 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:55,799 Speaker 4: that we've gone past that, but in reality, there is 759 00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,880 Speaker 4: this really prevalent narrative that you haven't made it in 760 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,920 Speaker 4: life if you haven't met the love of your life. 761 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:07,120 Speaker 4: You know. So people within my research definitely felt like 762 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,359 Speaker 4: if they weren't in a relationship by the time there 763 00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:16,759 Speaker 4: were thirty plus, that their life hadn't started, hadn't officially started, right, 764 00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:20,279 Speaker 4: which is a really odd idea if you think about it. 765 00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:24,080 Speaker 4: And I think we kind of need to peel back 766 00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:27,440 Speaker 4: that narrative as to why people feel like they need 767 00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:30,080 Speaker 4: to find the love of their life, because you can 768 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:34,800 Speaker 4: be you can feel worthy, and you can be completely 769 00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:39,120 Speaker 4: happy as a single person. And for some people, you 770 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:41,680 Speaker 4: know that that's wonderful and great and that's how they 771 00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:44,520 Speaker 4: should go forth and prosper sort of things. So I 772 00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,520 Speaker 4: do feel like having that pressure that you have to 773 00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,840 Speaker 4: meet someone, we really need to sort of roll that 774 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:55,480 Speaker 4: back and say to people you can be happy independently 775 00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:59,000 Speaker 4: as an individual and living your best life and being worthy. 776 00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you meet I meet a lot of people single, 777 00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:06,200 Speaker 3: super happy, like not interested, which is good. I'm glad 778 00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:09,120 Speaker 3: when I you know that they feel happy in themselves 779 00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:10,960 Speaker 3: so they don't feel they need that partner. 780 00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,200 Speaker 1: That's really good. Do you think about that? And actually 781 00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,160 Speaker 1: there is hope for me yet. 782 00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,760 Speaker 3: Of me being single. I will be every day every 783 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:31,080 Speaker 3: I've had a long time with the love of my life. 784 00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:35,200 Speaker 1: Hello, long Lisa. 785 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:39,000 Speaker 3: This was so interesting. It's really as I said, you know, 786 00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:42,560 Speaker 3: the two of us went total novices to this, so 787 00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:47,040 Speaker 3: to having your insight was really fascinating. I hope. I 788 00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,200 Speaker 3: hope that's given you some ideas as well, and to 789 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,239 Speaker 3: sort of think about what you think out there. You 790 00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:57,160 Speaker 3: know of apps and you know, I don't know, to 791 00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:01,360 Speaker 3: try the local pub insteading. 792 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,919 Speaker 1: Face to face. But you need you need confidence, You need. 793 00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:05,160 Speaker 2: A bit of you know, stump up bit of and 794 00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:07,759 Speaker 2: to be able to go, Okay, what am I actually what. 795 00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:08,520 Speaker 1: Am I actually doing? 796 00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:11,200 Speaker 2: And am I ready to be rejected you know by 797 00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:14,160 Speaker 2: this person that I'm about to wander up and say, Hi, 798 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,080 Speaker 2: that's a long Yeah, it is. 799 00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:20,839 Speaker 1: A lot, but I remember I've just had that. I've 800 00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:22,000 Speaker 1: just had a memory, honey. 801 00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:26,000 Speaker 2: And when Lolo was on the apps and the boys 802 00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:28,760 Speaker 2: so our son and his partner, we're. 803 00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:29,200 Speaker 1: All living together. 804 00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:34,319 Speaker 2: It's probably during COVID actually, and Lolo was was. They 805 00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:37,160 Speaker 2: were just on her to get onto the apps, remember 806 00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:39,239 Speaker 2: that they were just the apps you can get and 807 00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:41,120 Speaker 2: then guys would come up and then we'd all be 808 00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:45,040 Speaker 2: crowding around her phone and going which lady is swipe 809 00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:48,360 Speaker 2: yes or no? And I remember you were getting quite 810 00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,719 Speaker 2: animated at one point, you know, So I guess the 811 00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:52,399 Speaker 2: only time I've. 812 00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:55,120 Speaker 3: Ever seen one like literally that was the one time 813 00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:56,440 Speaker 3: that time seen. 814 00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:57,560 Speaker 1: At one time in band camp. 815 00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:01,880 Speaker 3: I've never seen anyone. And even then she hit it 816 00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:04,080 Speaker 3: because it was her private things. Yes, of course, it 817 00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:06,600 Speaker 3: was literally five minutes of like wait, wait, let me 818 00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:09,160 Speaker 3: see it. And I was like, oh oh yeah. 819 00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,759 Speaker 2: But I do understand the gamification of it. I've just 820 00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:14,000 Speaker 2: learned that word, by the way, Ali taught me that word. 821 00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:16,480 Speaker 2: But but you know, are these scores that come up 822 00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:18,319 Speaker 2: like you've been on here every day like that? 823 00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:18,920 Speaker 1: That's what it does. 824 00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,799 Speaker 2: In my meditation app, It'll it'll say you, you know, 825 00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:23,120 Speaker 2: did you meditate today? 826 00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:26,040 Speaker 1: And yes, I did. Okay, move on otherwise you'll lose 827 00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:27,800 Speaker 1: your score. Anyway. 828 00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:30,640 Speaker 4: Luckily there's no scores on the dating apps. 829 00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:34,279 Speaker 3: Oh could you imagine that's we don't want to go there. Yes, 830 00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:38,440 Speaker 3: I think there's enough. It's fraught with enough. Oh, thank you, Lisa, 831 00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:41,399 Speaker 3: thank you for your time. And you're smarts and all. 832 00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,640 Speaker 1: In your work, your study. That's yeah, so good. 833 00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:45,960 Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me.