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Speaker 1: This podcast was recorded on the land of the Gatigel

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Speaker 1: people of the Uran nation. Hello and welcome to the

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Speaker 1: Real Story with Joe Hildebrand. I am a Joe Hildebrand

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Speaker 1: be someone who is exactly as handsome and wise as

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Speaker 1: Joe Hildebrand or see all of the above, and a

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Speaker 1: bit schizophrenic. Yes, that is right. We have an absolutely

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Speaker 1: huge show for you. Is Donald Trump snubbing Anthony Albanizi

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Speaker 1: because he doesn't like Kevin? Right?

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's a menaje rettoir of he speaking of hatred.

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Speaker 1: How Glastonbury became the music festival of death? What is

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Speaker 1: going on? And just as an added bonus, we're going

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Speaker 1: to deliver piece in the Middle East. All that more

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Speaker 1: coming up. So first up this week, there was a

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Speaker 1: report by some of my beloved colleagues at Sky News

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Speaker 1: about Donald Trump refusing to meet with Anthony Albanesi, our

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Speaker 1: Prime minister, because he doesn't like Kevin Rudd. And quite frankly,

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Speaker 1: he wouldn't be the first. But let's just unpack this

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Speaker 1: a bit.

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Speaker 3: So.

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Speaker 1: A former polster for Trump, a Republican poster called Brett Buchanan,

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Speaker 1: told Sky News that mister Rudd's role as Australia's representative

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Speaker 1: was a key reason mister Albanezi had been unable to

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Speaker 1: schedule a face to face meeting with the US president.

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Speaker 1: And look, let's face it, Kevin Rudd does have a

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Speaker 1: way of putting people offside. He well, he put all

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Speaker 1: of China off side by saying they were trying to

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Speaker 1: rap first on climate change. Was he wrong? Probably not,

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Speaker 1: But anyway, there are some things you sort of not

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Speaker 1: meant to say, including most of what Kevin Rudd said

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Speaker 1: on Twitter after he was no longer the Prime Minister,

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Speaker 1: and he said that Donald Trump was this kind of

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Speaker 1: terrible threat to democracy, awful person, and plenty of people

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Speaker 1: have said plenty of bad things about Donald Trump in

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Speaker 1: the past. He's not all there either. Then, of course,

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Speaker 1: Kevin Rudd gets made ambassador to the US while Joe

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Speaker 1: Biden is the president, and everyone thinks that Biden is

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Speaker 1: going to win again and that Trump is dead in

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Speaker 1: the water. Unfortunately, history did not follow the script that

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Speaker 1: had been ordained to it and Trump ends up beating

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Speaker 1: Kamala Harris and suddenly all of Kevin Rudd's tweets come

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Speaker 1: back to haunt him, or did they? Because I'm not

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Speaker 1: entirely convinced that Donald Trump A knows or B cares

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Speaker 1: or c isn't willing to forgive the things that Kevin

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Speaker 1: Rudd has previously said about it. Now we know that

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump, despite being a bit bombastic and never afraid

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Speaker 1: to lay into his enemies in all sorts of public fora,

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Speaker 1: I can't believe I used the correct Latin plural for forum.

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Speaker 1: That's just that's a classical education for you, huh. Not

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Speaker 1: bad for boy from Dannel anyway. So Trump has been

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Speaker 1: known to bring his enemies into his fold. One example

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Speaker 1: is his Vice President jd Vance, who was slagging off

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Speaker 1: Trump during his first term and is now the VP.

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Speaker 1: Now the bloke that's going to replace Trump if the

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Speaker 1: President has a heart attack and dies and the job.

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Speaker 1: Even the host of Morning Joe Joe Scarborough, you know,

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Speaker 1: who is basically Joe Biden's press secretary on air, gets

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Speaker 1: invited to Mara Lago to have a bit of a

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Speaker 1: ted a tete with Trump and you know, find out

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Speaker 1: where it all went wrong for him and what part

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Speaker 1: of Middle America Joe Scarborough and other mainstream coast outlets

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Speaker 1: simply weren't getting. So there's that the other thing that

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Speaker 1: is not quite I suppose fitting with the narrative that

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Speaker 1: Trump is refusing to meet with Albo just because he

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Speaker 1: really really really hates right, is that Trump's first meeting

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Speaker 1: with Albo, albeit over the telephone, but a proper official,

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Speaker 1: scheduled telephone hook up between the Oval Office and a

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Speaker 1: secure room in Parliament House or the lodge or wherever

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Speaker 1: it was between the two leaders. That was set up

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Speaker 1: by Rudd. That was set up by the US Embassy,

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Speaker 1: Australia's US embassy in Washington that is run by Kevin Rudd.

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Speaker 1: He set up that phone call, and that phone call

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Speaker 1: is something that takes, you know, weeks of planning. Again,

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Speaker 1: unlike people say, oh, why didn't you know Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: just call you or why didn't you just text Donald Trump?

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Speaker 1: In fact, if you're going to have a phone call

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Speaker 1: with the US president, it's a bit more complicated than that.

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Speaker 1: You have to have a secure line and both both

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Speaker 1: leaders have to be in a secure room. There's obviously

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Speaker 1: all sorts of protocols over who can be in the

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Speaker 1: room with them, who was actually listening, who can hear

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Speaker 1: these things. It's not something you just sort of, you know,

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Speaker 1: fire off, you know, just because you feel like it,

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Speaker 1: Like you know, me back in the day at the

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Speaker 1: pub to all my ex girlfriends. It's it's more you know,

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Speaker 1: I won't say more congenial, but it's more formal than that.

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Speaker 1: So if Donald Trump didn't want to talk to Albo,

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Speaker 1: or doesn't want to talk to Albo because he hates

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Speaker 1: Kevin Rudd, why did he agree to the phone call

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Speaker 1: that was set up by Kevin Rudd so we could

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Speaker 1: talk to Albow. This, of course brings us to the

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Speaker 1: G seven meeting in Canada, World Powerhouse Canada, and people say, well,

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Speaker 1: hang on, why didn't he speak to Albo at the

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Speaker 1: G seven meeting like he was supposed to? And Albo

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Speaker 1: flew literally across the world, like the literally the other

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Speaker 1: side of the world. It is a very very long

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Speaker 1: way to go not to get a meeting. But of

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Speaker 1: course they were going to have a meeting, they had

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Speaker 1: a meeting scheduled. But Trump had to go and or

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Speaker 1: with the Middle East peace crisis, and so he left

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Speaker 1: the G seven, left all the people he was going

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Speaker 1: to have meetings with so we could deal with Israel

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Speaker 1: and Iran bombing the Jesus out of each other and

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Speaker 1: of course, as we later found out, so that the

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Speaker 1: US could basically finish the job by dropping a few

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Speaker 1: bunker busting bombs on Iran itself. So again, if we

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Speaker 1: had to follow that logic, did Trump orchestraate war in

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Speaker 1: the Middle East just so he could get out of

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Speaker 1: meeting Albow because he didn't like Kevin Rudd's mean tweets? Possibly?

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Speaker 1: I mean it's Donald Trump, who knows, But I just

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Speaker 1: don't think so. And of course people say, well, he

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Speaker 1: met with Kiir Starmer, who was the other member of ORCUS.

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Speaker 1: The UK Prime Minister clues in the name a UK

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Speaker 1: US we're the A by the way, in case anyone's wondering,

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Speaker 1: he meets with Key Stamer, but didn't meet with Albert Well.

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Speaker 1: The meeting with Kiir Starmer was the day before that

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Speaker 1: Trump left, and the reason why that meeting was before

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Speaker 1: And this is another criticism, but Albo was only meeting

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump on the sidelines. It wasn't like an official

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Speaker 1: G seven meeting. That's right, because Australia is not in

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Speaker 1: the G seven. The G seven doesn't include Australia. We're

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Speaker 1: not there. Australia was there as a special kind of

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Speaker 1: gift if you like, special special offer one time into

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Speaker 1: financial usail at the invite of Canada. So Canada invites

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Speaker 1: Australia as a special guest to the G seven, even

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Speaker 1: though it's not in the G seven. And this is

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Speaker 1: completely normal. This is what happens. You know, the largest

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Speaker 1: country in the world, India, an absolute nuclear superpower with

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Speaker 1: one and a half billion people. Guess what, it's not

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Speaker 1: in the G seven either, Like and the Albanezi was

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Speaker 1: sitting at the kids table at the G seven dinner

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Speaker 1: with India. Meanwhile, the real powerhouses of the world were

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Speaker 1: sitting at the G seven table, powerhouses like Italy and Canada.

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Speaker 1: Surprise New Zealand was there. But this is the thing.

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Speaker 1: G seven is a sort of arbitrary grouping of nations,

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Speaker 1: European and North American nations who all got together and

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Speaker 1: you know, there's nothing binding about it. It's basically just

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Speaker 1: a chance for a big global talk fest so that

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Speaker 1: people can have these you know, bilateral meetings on the sidelines.

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Speaker 1: And it just so happened that, you know, Albo just

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Speaker 1: copped the day that Donald Trump had to go and

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Speaker 1: deal with Israel bombing Iran and Iran firing missiles at

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Speaker 1: Israel and again if Donald Trump, I mean, that's a

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Speaker 1: bit more than I'm washing my hair that night. Oh sorry,

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Speaker 1: something's just come out. Oh I've got a calendar clash.

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Speaker 1: There's war in the Middle East. So I'm just not

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Speaker 1: entirely sure that Kevin Rudd being mean about Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: in since deleted tweets is the reason why Anthony Albanez

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Speaker 1: hasn't been able to get a face to face meeting

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Speaker 1: with the US President, a meeting that was scheduled and

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Speaker 1: was about to take place again when World War III

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Speaker 1: was about to break out, but didn't, as we're going

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Speaker 1: to find out later in the show. So why is

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Speaker 1: this Republican poster saying that the reason why Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: didn't meet albo is because he hates Kevin Rudd. Maybe

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Speaker 1: because he reads the news, maybe because that's what a

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Speaker 1: whole bunch of other people are saying is the reason.

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Speaker 1: And so when he's asked what the reason is, he

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Speaker 1: gives the reason to the best of his knowledge, just

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Speaker 1: a thought. That's where reading the news will get you anyway.

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you something else that's in the news. Glastonbury. Yes,

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Speaker 1: the Glastonbury Music Festival, that great celebration of peace and

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Speaker 1: love and harmony, the literal harmony and the metaphorical kind

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Speaker 1: of us all living together and one common cause, working

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Speaker 1: with each other, respecting each other, protecting each other, and

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Speaker 1: of course not killing each other, which is kind of

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Speaker 1: like the entry level for peace and love. Again. We'll

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Speaker 1: talk about that with our special guests this week. You know,

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Speaker 1: just not killing someone is enough. That's all you really

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Speaker 1: have to do for peace. Just not kill people or

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Speaker 1: not say that people should be killed. And that's you know,

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Speaker 1: that's kind of the vibe. That's the peace train that

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Speaker 1: Cat Stevens was talking about shortly before he called for

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Speaker 1: a flat bar on Simon Rushdi. But anyway, I'm going

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Speaker 1: a bit off peace, so glass and By music festival,

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Speaker 1: as everyone in the world knows right now, turn into

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Speaker 1: this massive, seething hot bit of hate because a couple

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Speaker 1: of acts said some pretty nasty things about Israel, and

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Speaker 1: one act in particular said that Israeli soldiers should be killed,

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Speaker 1: or at the very least wished them dead. So let's

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Speaker 1: just take a back step. How did we get to this?

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Speaker 1: How did Glastonbury, which has since put out a statement saying,

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Speaker 1: oh no, we don't mean any of this. This is terrible.

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Speaker 1: We condemned these comments. We're all about peace and love.

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Speaker 1: We never knew this would happen. Nobody could know this

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Speaker 1: would happen. Well, Glastonbury, you kinda could have known it

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Speaker 1: was happened because one other acts in question was actually

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Speaker 1: up on a terror charge a month before you had

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Speaker 1: them perform as a headline act at your festival. Now,

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Speaker 1: this is an Irish rap group from Belfast called Kneecap,

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Speaker 1: and they are totally hardcore. You can tell by the

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Speaker 1: name Kneecap. Kneecapping, of course, is what the IRA used

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Speaker 1: to famously do to anyone that it thought was an informant.

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Speaker 1: It would kneecap them, which is take a gun and

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Speaker 1: blow their kneecaps off, pretty painful. Currently interesting fun fact,

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Speaker 1: I was told once many years ago that the best

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Speaker 1: knee reconstruction surgeons in the whole world were in Ireland

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Speaker 1: and Victoria because the worst possible injuries you could get

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Speaker 1: on your knees were from being kneecapped by the IRA

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Speaker 1: or playing AFL never Boy the to Confederate. They didn't

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Speaker 1: have the Internet back then, so but I assume that's true.

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Speaker 1: That just makes sense it feels right anyway.

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Speaker 4: So hardcore Irish language rap group Kneecap totally hardcore and

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Speaker 4: they've got a history of saying, you know, really provocative,

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Speaker 4: you know, hard left, hardcore Kneecappy things like, for example,

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Speaker 4: kill your local Tory MP.

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Speaker 1: The only good toy is a dead toy, so kill

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Speaker 1: your local Tory MP. Don't get much hardcore than that.

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Speaker 1: It's inciting murder. You ain't going to kill people because

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Speaker 1: they're right wings the Tories kill. So funny thing was

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Speaker 1: that when actually confronted with that, because people in the

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Speaker 1: UK were actually killing MPs, MPs were actually being killed

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Speaker 1: and Sidney Kap, should you really be saying all this

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Speaker 1: stuff when MP's are Oh no, we didn't mean that.

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Speaker 1: That's not really true. Sorry, ah no, that was just

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Speaker 1: us was just putting it on. That was just a

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Speaker 1: part of our pisona. That was just part of our act. Anyway.

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Speaker 1: Fast forward to November twenty twenty four, a year and

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Speaker 1: a bit after the October seven terror attacks at another

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Speaker 1: music festival, the Nova Music Festival in southern Israel, where

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Speaker 1: hundreds of people were killed, slaughtered, blown up, massacred, whatever

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Speaker 1: you want to call it, not just killed though also raped,

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Speaker 1: also kidnapped, you know, young people at a music festival

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Speaker 1: celebrating peace. The music resival was actually dedicated to peace,

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Speaker 1: like all music festivals are from woodstock On, just like Glastonbury.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's all about peace, isn't it? And ha

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Speaker 1: Mass comes in and kills, murders, mames, kidnaps, rapes. You

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Speaker 1: know about three about three or four hundred of those

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Speaker 1: little piece nicks celebrating piece at a peaceful music festival.

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Speaker 1: And so what does Kneecap do at another music festival?

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Speaker 1: About a year later? One of their members chants up

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Speaker 1: her Mass, up Hezbela and then drapes himself in the

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Speaker 1: Hesbela flag. So a year after Hamas has killed hundreds

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Speaker 1: of music festival goings goers that Kneecap then rocks up

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Speaker 1: at another music festival and says that they support her

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Speaker 1: Maas and support Hesbler and support and they cover themselves

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Speaker 1: cover one of them covers themselves with the Hesbela flags.

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Speaker 1: That's pretty like that's a bit low. That's a bit harsh,

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Speaker 1: isn't it. I Mean you've said go kill tories. Now

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Speaker 1: you're saying that you're support terrorists who killed festival goers

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Speaker 1: while you're at a festival with festival go okay. So

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Speaker 1: what happens then is that Kneecap gets charged. So in

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Speaker 1: May Kneecap gets charged or this member of Kneecap mo

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Speaker 1: I believe their name is anyway, they get charged with

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Speaker 1: supporting a prescribed terrorist organization because of course Hamas and

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Speaker 1: Hesbler are legal terrorist organizations under UK law, just as

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Speaker 1: they are under Australian law, and to support them, to

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Speaker 1: voice support for them, to promote support for them, champion

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Speaker 1: their cause by saying things like I don't know up hezbela,

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Speaker 1: that's that's an offense. That's supporting terrorism. And so the

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Speaker 1: police have charged this person and charged them in May.

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Speaker 1: Now you can sort of say what you're like about

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Speaker 1: free speech or whether people should be charged for just

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Speaker 1: saying stupid, stu extremist stuff. I think once you're actually

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Speaker 1: encouraging inciting violence, obviously that's a big red line. But

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Speaker 1: the point is that there is no one I was

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Speaker 1: gonna say, there's no one on the planet. Let's just say,

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Speaker 1: let's just take it back a bit. There is no

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Speaker 1: one in the UK music scene who did not know

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Speaker 1: that this guy was charged with supporting terrorism. And yet

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Speaker 1: the Glass and reorganizers, who support peace, love and mung

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Speaker 1: beans and had no idea that these acts would say

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Speaker 1: such outrageous things. They still put Kneecap on the bill

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Speaker 1: as one of their big names, one of the big artists.

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Speaker 1: And it was so known that these guys were at

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Speaker 1: best questionable. And this is all allegedly because he's now

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Speaker 1: been charged, so, you know, despite the fact they were

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Speaker 1: the thousands of witnesses, you know, allegedly allegedly, but this

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Speaker 1: guy had been was charged by police. He actually comes

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Speaker 1: out on stage bragging about the fact that he's on bail.

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Speaker 1: He Glastonbury, I'm a freeman. That's my Northern Irish accent

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Speaker 1: for you. So the idea that Glassenbery was sort of

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Speaker 1: blindsided by this and the organizers who they're not about

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Speaker 1: just making money, by the way, they're not about just

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Speaker 1: creating a bit of controversy or creating a bit of

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Speaker 1: a buzz so they can rake in eight hundred bucks

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Speaker 1: Australian for a general admission ticket from each of the

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Speaker 1: tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands in fact, people who

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Speaker 1: move through. It's not about money or it's about peace

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Speaker 1: it's about bringing people together. So the idea that they

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Speaker 1: were blindsided by this is absolute bollocks. And it's even

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Speaker 1: more bollocks by the fact that the BBC, which live

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Speaker 1: streams Glastonbury, deliberately cut the feed before Kneecap came on

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Speaker 1: because they knew that Kneecap was probably going to say

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Speaker 1: something horrifically incendury, offensive, possibly inciting whatever, whatever. So the BBC,

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Speaker 1: the Glattonbridge Glassenburg's broadcast part knew that these guys were dodgy,

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Speaker 1: we're questionable at best, and that one of them had

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Speaker 1: been charged with support for terror, and that the BBC

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Speaker 1: would be in all sorts if it broadcast that support

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Speaker 1: for terrorism. What the BBC.

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Speaker 3: Didn't know or didn't anticipated, was that me CAP had

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Speaker 3: a warm up act. MECAP had a warm up act

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Speaker 3: called Bob Villain.

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Speaker 1: Get it.

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Speaker 2: It's like Bob Dylan but bad because everyone everyone's really badass.

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Speaker 2: These reporters, these performances are bad. They're like badass hodcol musicians.

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Speaker 2: And Bob Villain is not a person, it is two people.

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Speaker 2: It is a duo comprised of Bobby Villain with a

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Speaker 2: Y and the Bobby and Bobby villain with an I e.

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Speaker 2: In the Bobby, which are both spoiler alert assume names.

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Speaker 1: They're both cover names, stage names, because apparently these guys are.

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Speaker 2: So edgy they can't actually reveal their real names because

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Speaker 2: what they're saying is so edgy and so for real

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Speaker 2: and so had core that if anyone knew their real names,

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Speaker 2: just plit their d or.

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Speaker 1: Whatever, or maybe they just have to face real bil consequences,

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Speaker 1: which has indeed happened. So Bobby villain, Bobby with a

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Speaker 1: why villain I think, gets up on stage and I

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Speaker 1: have to say, it looks like a phenomenal performance. By

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Speaker 1: the way, this guy's very athletic, but you know, also

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Speaker 1: has possibly incited murder. Anyway, he gets up on stage,

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Speaker 1: it says free, Free Palestine, and of course everyone goes

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Speaker 1: really free. Palatine Glassonbury are selling Palestinian flags for ten

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Speaker 1: pounds a pop. They are actually selling so the cool

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Speaker 1: thing to beat a music festival and do now remember

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Speaker 1: the big day out and everyone said, how dare you

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Speaker 1: drape yourself in the Australian flag. That's a hate crime,

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Speaker 1: that means you're a racist, and there was all that,

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Speaker 1: you know, I feel really uncomfortable people having Australian flags.

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Speaker 1: That the big day out and it just was here

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Speaker 1: here at Glassybury they are selling Palestinian flag. So again

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Speaker 1: not about the money, but it just so happens they

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Speaker 1: are selling them because there they must have accessory for

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty five glasso. So this guy comes out and

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Speaker 1: says free, free Palestine, so whatever, fair enough, cool who

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Speaker 1: doesn't want to be free and then says death death

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Speaker 1: to the IDEF and that's of course the Australian Defense Forces.

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Speaker 1: So this is again there's always a line in argument.

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Speaker 1: I'm all in for free speech, but there's always a

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Speaker 1: line where free speech does not mean incitement to violence.

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Speaker 1: So you can't say hey you should go and kill

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Speaker 1: that Jew over there and say hey, it's just free speech.

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Speaker 1: It's just my opinion that you should go into it. Nah,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't work. The old saying goes, free speech does

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Speaker 1: not mean shouting fire in a crowded theater. So if

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Speaker 1: you're doing something that you know is obviously going to

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Speaker 1: cause harm or danger, cause people to be injured or

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Speaker 1: hurt or even worse killed, that's not a free speech argus. Meant,

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Speaker 1: that's just you being a dick and quite possibly a criminal.

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Speaker 1: And so this guy says death death to the IDF

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Speaker 1: and tries to get everyone to know chant along with him,

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Speaker 1: which of course they effortlessly do because they've bought their

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Speaker 1: Palestine flags for ten pounds, so you want to get

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Speaker 1: your money's worth. And away they go, and the uproar

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Speaker 1: obviously has just been enormous, and you know, people are

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Speaker 1: going Philly. The cops are now investigating this guy as well,

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Speaker 1: and of course the UK police, they've got ridiculous hate

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Speaker 1: speech laws there and they may well be warranted in

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Speaker 1: this case, but they're arresting people for tweets and Facebook

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Speaker 1: posts and everything, so of course they're investigating this and

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Speaker 1: we'll see what happens. And then Bobby Villain responds to

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Speaker 1: all this by posting a picture of himself on social

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Speaker 1: media eating an ice cream. So basically, while all the

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Speaker 1: Zionists are out there hating on me or losing their

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Speaker 1: minds whatever, I'm eating a and then he this is

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Speaker 1: the amazing thing puts in brackets vegan clothes, brackets ice cream.

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Speaker 1: So it had to he's not just so right on

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Speaker 1: about Palestine that he wants the Israeli Defense Force personnel

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Speaker 1: to die, but he just wants to ensure that everyone

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Speaker 1: knows that he's a vegan and that it's vegan ice

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Speaker 1: cream because of course, you know, harming animals, that's inhumane.

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Speaker 1: And that's the really kind of galling thing about all

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Speaker 1: of this. People can have their views on, you know,

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Speaker 1: what's going on in the Middle East and whose side

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Speaker 1: they're on, and who's the terrorists and who's the genocidal

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Speaker 1: evil state whatever, whatever, whatever, but it's all fake with

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Speaker 1: these guys. It's actually nothing to do with Palestine. Does

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Speaker 1: this person really think that he's helping the Palestine, the

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Speaker 1: Palestinian people, the Palestinian cause by saying death that's the

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Speaker 1: idea of and getting everyone to channelong. I mean, if anything,

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Speaker 1: he's creating it. If you think about it, to brain cells,

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Speaker 1: he's creating a massive backlash to that cause. And at

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Speaker 1: any rate, you know, these people say, oh, we need

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Speaker 1: to raise awareness. Why aren't peop talk about this? Everyone's

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Speaker 1: talking about it, Dick cared. The whole world's talking about it.

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Speaker 1: They're talking about virtually nothing else. So everyone knows about it,

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Speaker 1: everyone knows which side which people are on. Awareness is

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Speaker 1: not a problem with this issue. I assure you. But again,

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Speaker 1: they don't really care about the issue. They don't care

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Speaker 1: about the suffering of the Palestinian people. They care about

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Speaker 1: telling people how right on they are, how virtuous they are,

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Speaker 1: how much they care, how engaged, how how hard core

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Speaker 1: they are, and in case of Bobby Villain, how vegan

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Speaker 1: they are. And how do we know this? Well, they

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Speaker 1: tell us themselves the old joke, how do you know

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Speaker 1: if someone's vegan? They'll tell you Bobby Villain just told us,

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Speaker 1: he just told us, and to our old friends a kneecap,

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Speaker 1: they told us too, because when they were confronted on

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Speaker 1: their extreme language, but it covering themselves in the hesbula

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Speaker 1: flags saying uphams up hezbla or saying go and kill

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Speaker 1: your Tory and Pete, they say, oh, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: we don't really mean it. It's just an act. It's

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Speaker 1: just part of our persona. Don't you get that, dumb

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Speaker 1: Philisteine don't understand. I'm a performer, I'm an artist. But

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Speaker 1: they're actually telling us this. They don't actually care that much.

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Speaker 1: They're just saying it as part of an act. And

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Speaker 1: that's the same thing with so much of online actives

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Speaker 1: in public actions. All these people who are chouting, jumping

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Speaker 1: on any cause. That's how these people end up, you know,

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Speaker 1: holding protests in support of the Ayatola of her aunt.

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Speaker 1: It's just an act, it's just a show. It's not

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Speaker 1: about the cause. It's not about who's right or wrong

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Speaker 1: or who's suffering. It's all about you, so you can

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Speaker 1: show off just how right on you are, and of

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Speaker 1: course in this case you're totally wrong. Well, as we're

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Speaker 1: very fond of saying here at the Real Story Podcast,

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Speaker 1: world War three again, again again, And strangely, world War

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Speaker 1: three never seems to materialize, doesn't quite eventuate the way

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Speaker 1: so many people seem to say it's about to. And

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Speaker 1: my next guest is a very sage observer of this phenomenon.

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Speaker 1: He just wrote a fantastic piece in the OZ talking

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Speaker 1: about how so many commentators, especially the ones who always

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Speaker 1: think they know better than everybody else, have got the

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Speaker 1: Middle East wrong and have got their predictions that the

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Speaker 1: Iran Israel conflict would lead to this broader regional conflagration

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Speaker 1: and possibly drag in all the superpowers and be the

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Speaker 1: end of life as we know it on Earth. His

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Speaker 1: name is Adam Sloanim. He is the founder and director

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Speaker 1: of the Middle East Policy Forum. And where's a stack

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Speaker 1: of other hats as well that I won't go into.

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Speaker 1: The most important hat, though, is that he's a guest

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Speaker 1: on the real story. Adam, welcome, How are you, Joe?

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Speaker 5: Thank you for having me great.

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Speaker 1: Today, fantastic, great to have you. Le's get right into it.

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Speaker 1: You wrote in your piece recently that commentators, and again

425
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 1: I'm comforted because you're an expert in this area and

426
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,880
Speaker 1: I'm not. But I saw the same thing and thought,

427
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 1: how on earth does this turn into a regional war,

428
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:18,160
Speaker 1: let alone a global one, And that these predictions were

429
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 1: so misguided because people seem to lack a fundamental understanding

430
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: of the power dynamic in the Middle East, the various

431
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,120
Speaker 1: interests of all the sort of countervailing forces. Just take

432
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 1: us through what I suppose the mistakes that other people

433
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: were making and seeing this thing explode, and why, in fact,

434
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: your analysis showed that, you know, Iran Israel, for example,

435
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,400
Speaker 1: would be a very self contained and effective conflict.

436
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,399
Speaker 5: Joe, how much time do we have?

437
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: Thirty seconds?

438
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 4: Go right?

439
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 5: Okay, the three words. There's two sides to this. There's

440
00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,160
Speaker 5: the way we see it and what actually goes on.

441
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 5: The way we see it in the West is and

442
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 5: I use three words, fear, fatalism, and faith. Fear that

443
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 5: conflict cannot be contained, that conflict and kinetic conflict, war

444
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 5: by its very nature, will explode everything around it. That's

445
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 5: one of the really core issues here. The other is

446
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 5: what we call fatalism, that the intractability of much of

447
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 5: the conflict means that it must inherently therefore go on

448
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 5: and on and on and spiral. The third is faith,

449
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 5: which is the Western lens in which we see conflict,

450
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 5: which is that conflict, if it's not mediated, negotiated, and

451
00:27:55,200 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 5: have a process through which compromise can be attained, it

452
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 5: therefore leads to disaster. So when we put that frame

453
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:15,199
Speaker 5: on the Middle East, we get apocalyptic scenarios. The reality

454
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 5: of the Middle East is it's much more nuanced than that,

455
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:25,640
Speaker 5: and there is so much going on at the surface

456
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 5: and behind it that those lenses, those three f's, cannot

457
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 5: take into account some of those realities which need to

458
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:40,239
Speaker 5: be unpacked to get a better understanding. That you know,

459
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 5: sometimes and often wrong, but sometimes correctly, kinetic force military

460
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 5: force will deliver the outcome, and most of the time

461
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 5: it doesn't, but when it does, it's incredibly effective.

462
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: One of the things that Trump, I think is very

463
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 1: conscious or unconsciously doing, is engaging with you know, basically

464
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: madman diplomacy, which is, as of course you would know,

465
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: and we talk about on this podcast, is a strategy

466
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 1: devised by Henry Kissinger and Richard Nixon during the Vietnam era,

467
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: where Kissinger would sort of quietly say, listen, this guy's

468
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 1: off the leash. I don't know what he's going to

469
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: do next, and that would make you know, the Russians,

470
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 1: for example, or the Chinese thing, all right, we better

471
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 1: just step back here, because we don't want this thing

472
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 1: to blow up. How much do you think that's a

473
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: deliberate strategy on the part of Donald Trump and the

474
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 1: fact that he's actually decided, for the first time really

475
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 1: since his presidency, decided to follow through with one of

476
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 1: his sort of bombastic threats and actually drop these bunker

477
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: busters on Iran. I mean, that seems to have been

478
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 1: the kind of circuit breaker in this conflict, doesn't it.

479
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: And it's classic madmen diplomacy. Holy crap, this guy actually

480
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: will do stuff. We'd better pull our heads in go

481
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: back to the negotiating table, agree to the ceasefire, et cetera,

482
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: et cetera.

483
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a good point, and I truly don't know

484
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 5: if President Trump has a strategic bone in right, seriously, seriously,

485
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 5: no idea. But I'm going to take up on the

486
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 5: point that this is not the first time where he

487
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 5: said I'll do it and then done it. So there

488
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 5: are a couple of instances here. Number One, it wasn't

489
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 5: just the bomb, the bombing of the nuclear arsenal, which

490
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 5: was a threat to world peace. Even our foreign minister

491
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 5: has said it very clearly right that a jihadest is

492
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 5: lowest apocalyptic.

493
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: That's right. It's chotological, like these guys are prepping for

494
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 1: the end, literally prepping for the end of the world

495
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 1: and want to get an at on bomb.

496
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 5: That's not one of the lessons of history, especially the

497
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 5: twentieth century, Joe is if they say they're going to

498
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 5: do it, I'll take them at their works like, seriously,

499
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 5: I'll take them at their word. It's it's similar in

500
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 5: that sense to what Hama said. Ham I said, we're

501
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 5: going to kill you, and we're going to do whatever

502
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 5: it takes to do it, and then they went and

503
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,959
Speaker 5: did it. So that's that's that's the first thing. So

504
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 5: he understood that. But let's go back to a couple

505
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 5: of things that he did in contradistinction to Obama's very

506
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 5: infamous red lines. He said, Obama President Obama said if

507
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 5: Syria used chemical weapons, that was a red line, of course,

508
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 5: and there would be a consequence. They used chemical weapons,

509
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 5: nothing happened. So the equation then equals no American deterrence.

510
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 5: That's that's what happens. The prestige that comes with deterance fails.

511
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 1: Right.

512
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 5: Remember in his first term that Trump did two things

513
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 5: in the Middle East that were or three things that

514
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 5: were extremely important. One, he recognized Jerusalem as the capital

515
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 5: of Israel, which everybody said would be a massive war,

516
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 5: there would be conflict, there would be an escatological disaster.

517
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 5: Nothing happened. Two he went he then went and assassinated Salomoni,

518
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,719
Speaker 5: the head of probably the number one and I'm going

519
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 5: to use the word because it is the right word

520
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 5: terrorist in the world, the man who set the whole

521
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 5: Iranian agenda and infrastructure for that ring of fire through

522
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 5: the Middle East to assert shee hegemony. He killed him,

523
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 5: said it, what did it? Third, he then put out

524
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 5: the Abraham Accords, which is and if this war continues,

525
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 5: that legacy and the discussions of peace with Syria, and

526
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 5: by the way, peace in the Middle East just means

527
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 5: absence of war. It doesn't mean wonder and warmth. We've

528
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 5: got to be really careful about this, right. But if

529
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 5: it means absence of kinetic conflict between Israel and Lebanon,

530
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 5: who are desperate to get rid of his Bolla and Syria,

531
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 5: and then the Saudi Arabians join in the custodians of

532
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 5: these Lamic holy sites, the war, this war, let's look

533
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 5: at it as a metaphorical thing, the chrysalis of that conflict.

534
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 5: Out of it will come something I think wonderful, something amazing.

535
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 5: Israel's talent, the Arabian talent and capital, the ability to

536
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 5: put all that together in a region that is fundamentally

537
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 5: always at the lowest level of un human development indexes.

538
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 5: It's time we went past that and we actually liberated

539
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 5: the great strengths and talents and opportunities that come from

540
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 5: that region. Soup has as we say, Trump has four

541
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 5: yea when he said when he said to the ur Aliens,

542
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 5: I'm giving you sixty days just to show you series,

543
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 5: and on the sixty first he rang met Yahoo and

544
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 5: said days up, off you go. They should have realized

545
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,280
Speaker 5: they didn't. He said I'm going to drop the bombs

546
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 5: and they said, no, you won't. He dropped the bombs

547
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 5: and their nuclear infrastructure. No matter what you read, Joe

548
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 5: is essentially finished. It's gone, it's finished.

549
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: That's exactly what right. There was that preliminary intelligence report

550
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 1: that was strategically leaked from the Pentagon that the head

551
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: of the CIA subsequently overruled and so, and yes, you're

552
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 1: absolutely right. In his first term he did that. I

553
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 1: was obviously talking about Trump's second term, where he's made

554
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 1: previous threats to Hama's threats to Russia or whatever and

555
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 1: not followed through. Just to to take you up on

556
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: the you know what the future of the Middle East

557
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: looks like now? And again, this is something that I

558
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 1: think a lot of people who like to talk a

559
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 1: lot but perhaps don't quite understand the situation. I mean,

560
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:11,240
Speaker 1: Hamasa's attack on October seven was very, very clearly strategically

561
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,800
Speaker 1: timed to disrupt negotiations between Israel and Saudi Arabia that

562
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 1: would have brought them closer together. Already there was a

563
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: breakthrough with the Saudis, which is key of course to

564
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 1: the wider region and the other Gulf states, where Israeli

565
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 1: planes for the first time were able to fly over

566
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 1: Saudi airspace, for example, thanks to the Abraham Accords, and

567
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,280
Speaker 1: that was only going to get closer. And of course

568
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 1: Hamas and Iran being she states, were terrified of Israel's

569
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,399
Speaker 1: closer alignment with the rest of the Arab states, which

570
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 1: are all sunny, and so they tried to blow that up.

571
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 1: So again, people who are just instinctively back Iran or

572
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: Hamas or so called Palestine, which has been betrayed by

573
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: both leaderships, you know, actually failed to realize this is

574
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 1: an intro Muslim conflict as much as it is a

575
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: conflict between Israel and Palistine. But where do you see? Uh,

576
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 1: just a quick recap of the entire at least done,

577
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,879
Speaker 1: But where do you where do you see? I mean,

578
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: I think part of the problem is, isn't it that

579
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 1: Netanyahu's political survival relies on him staying on as Prime minister.

580
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 1: The only way he can do that is to form

581
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 1: ongoing coalitions with increasingly sort of right wing, ultraconservative, ultra

582
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: orthodox parties. This means that he's very unlikely to reach

583
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 1: any kind of ongoing cease fire with her mass, particularly

584
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 1: while Harmas have the hostages. It's not really in Hamas's

585
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 1: interests either, because they're I mean, they're all a bit obliterated,

586
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: but you know they have to hang on as well

587
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 1: for their own self interest. How do how does that

588
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 1: Gordian not get cut? How does that? Where's the breakthrough?

589
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 1: Do you think?

590
00:36:55,880 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 5: Okay, let's let's let's take all that and start with

591
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 5: what's just happening today. Trump has told Bibby, you've got

592
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 5: to do a deal with Hamas, right, do the deal. Now.

593
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,240
Speaker 5: I've learned from a very very good friend of mine,

594
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 5: a wonderful man named Peter Lerner in Israel who's the

595
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:21,439
Speaker 5: international director of the Labor Federation the Histordrud, and when

596
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 5: he's serving is in the IDEF he's a spokesperson. What

597
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 5: he has taught me is it doesn't all happen together

598
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,800
Speaker 5: all at once. What's the name of that movie? Everything

599
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 5: everything all together all at once. It doesn't have to be.

600
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:39,880
Speaker 5: It can be sequentially layered. There can be layers to this. Now,

601
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,280
Speaker 5: Harmas is never going to release the hostages a minute

602
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 5: they release the hostages. That's their last bargaining chips staying

603
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 5: in power. And they are not just apocalyptic, the apocalyptic suicidal,

604
00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:00,800
Speaker 5: and they will stay in power to the last death

605
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 5: of every civilian above ground. They don't care about the Gazas,

606
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 5: all right, but we need to knowing that, we need

607
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:14,280
Speaker 5: to treat this in sequence. If there is a cease

608
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 5: fire on the ground, some hostages are released. And that's

609
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 5: the important thing in all of this is we never

610
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 5: lose our humanity about what's happened to Israeli's anti Palestinians.

611
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 5: If there's a cease fire and Israel's got control of

612
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 5: about seventy percent of Gaza, then we can deal with

613
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 5: the issue of the hostages. We can deal with Hamas.

614
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 5: And the one thing that Bibi's not dealing with is

615
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 5: the day after. What does that look like? Now? He

616
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 5: can't deal with that with his current government because of

617
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 5: the nature of that government. But he's a great survivor.

618
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 5: I'm not sure he believes in anything like many politicians.

619
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: No, I don't think he does either.

620
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:06,479
Speaker 5: Right, like many politicians, it's power. So if the deal

621
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 5: is done with the abraham Courts and they're expanded, you

622
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,399
Speaker 5: know as a thing putting on our political hats, Joe,

623
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,720
Speaker 5: and there's a ceasefire in Gaza, so people are stopping dying.

624
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:20,280
Speaker 5: Then you go to election. And if you go to election,

625
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 5: you go to election. And if the Center, if Bennett,

626
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 5: who's the previous Prime minister, comes back to the Center

627
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,800
Speaker 5: and Bibby would align with him, that bib doesn't need

628
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 5: the far right. Yes, they deserve to belong to the

629
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 5: dustbin of history, right good put them there. The ultrue

630
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 5: religious will then be on notice. You either come to

631
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:50,439
Speaker 5: grips with the modernity of modern Israel or you get

632
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 5: cut off right because right now they're being funded to

633
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:58,840
Speaker 5: stay apart from the state. So if the Center and

634
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 5: Bibby would probably with the Center, then we have a

635
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 5: different Israel. We have a different relationship.

636
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: I was going to say, just say, because the reason

637
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,760
Speaker 1: why Nets had to align himself with the ultra orthodox

638
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 1: and far right MPs is because the Center refused to

639
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 1: form government with him. Do you think that would change

640
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: if there was a breakthrough in terms of you know,

641
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 1: a cease fire or the Abraham Accords. Do you think

642
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 1: the Center would come to the party and hold their

643
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 1: nose and and make him Prime Minister again.

644
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 5: I'm not sure you know everyone who talks about Israel,

645
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 5: who lives in Israel is a prophet. Joe, you and

646
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 5: I are not. However, I speak to friends and family

647
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 5: there all the time. The country has not had the

648
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:53,359
Speaker 5: chance two what's the best expression unpacked the trauma of

649
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 5: two years of conflict, and it needs to breathe, It

650
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 5: needs to reassert itself. It needs to come to groups.

651
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 5: Even I spoke to my sister who's just spent two

652
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 5: weeks in her safe room, and good friends of mine

653
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 5: in a bunker that've come out of it, and the

654
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 5: psychological challenges that they're facing just coming back to normal

655
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 5: with their families is significant. So the urgency of finding

656
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 5: a new normal, I think in a society that has

657
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:36,840
Speaker 5: been literally under bombardment for two years, that is Israel

658
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 5: and in Gaza, is so remarkable. I think it overrides

659
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 5: the ideological framework, and in this sense, israelis is different

660
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 5: to what's happening on some of the other borders in Hamas.

661
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 5: The ideological let's call it like it is, the religious

662
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:02,760
Speaker 5: imperative overrides any reason. In coming to a modicum with Israel,

663
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:08,720
Speaker 5: the war would be finished tomorrow, if the hostages are released,

664
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,400
Speaker 5: it's at the end of it. But it can't happen

665
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 5: because for them, there's a religious imperative here that they

666
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 5: are apocalyptically driven to. But coming back to Israel, the

667
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 5: need to find normality is urgent. It's urgent. It's a

668
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 5: very challenged society. I've been there. I saw it after

669
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 5: October seventh. It's got to repair. It's just got to

670
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 5: repair itself. So does that mean that the Center and

671
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 5: BIB will do business together it?

672
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:48,959
Speaker 1: Well?

673
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:49,280
Speaker 5: Could?

674
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 1: You know?

675
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 5: As I said in my article, he and Trump are

676
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 5: chur Chilean in what they've done with this war, twelve

677
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 5: Day war. They've very written by the way of war,

678
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 5: how you do war. It's completely rewritten, more significantly than

679
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 5: the Sixth Day War of nineteen sixty seven. But I'm

680
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 5: reminded of what Stanley Baldwin said about Churchill right in

681
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 5: nineteen thirty.

682
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: Five, Love Us.

683
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 5: Right. They wanted to get rid of Churchill out of

684
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:21,319
Speaker 5: the Parliament. They wanted him out right. He's not had

685
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 5: a great track record. And he turned to them and

686
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 5: he said, if there's going to be a war, and

687
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 5: there is, he's the only man I want to fight it.

688
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 5: Other than that, no issue with you, and that's exactly

689
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 5: what's happened to you.

690
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 1: Well, on that hopefully positive note, we've managed to successfully

691
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 1: negotiate our way through World War three, come out on

692
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 1: the other side and deliver it on a platter piece

693
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 1: in the Middle East. Adam Slodan, thank you so much

694
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 1: for joining us on the real story.

695
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 5: It's been my pleasure in my honor.

696
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: Thanks joke, and that is all we have time for

697
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 1: this week. Of course, you can get on the gram

698
00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 1: at Joe Underscore Hildebrand and slide into my dms. Want

699
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:03,760
Speaker 1: to suggest any topics, ask any questions. You can email

700
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 1: us as well. I think we still have the electronic mail,

701
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:10,280
Speaker 1: don't we millennials still use that. That's the real story.

702
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 1: At novapodcasts dot com dot au. You can go to

703
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,879
Speaker 1: your Apple podcasts app or your Spotify. You can leave

704
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 1: us a review, you can leave us a rating. We've

705
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 1: got a pretty good rating. I think we're up there

706
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 1: four point eight or something. Let's go for four point

707
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 1: nine this week, guys. Come on, and of course you

708
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 1: can read all my rantings in the Daily Telegrapher other

709
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:34,439
Speaker 1: news court Master heads every Monday and Saturday, and if

710
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:36,919
Speaker 1: that's not enough, we're going to come back next week

711
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:38,279
Speaker 1: and do it all over again. See that