WEBVTT - Disinformation Wars and a ‘Post Truth’ World

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<v Speaker 1>Like so many stories about misinformation, this one starts with

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<v Speaker 1>a social media post.

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<v Speaker 2>US President Donald Trump posting late last night, Australia is

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<v Speaker 2>making a terrible humanitarian mistake.

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<v Speaker 3>Prime Minister give asylum.

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<v Speaker 4>He was calling on Australia to make sure that the

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<v Speaker 4>team was not forced to go back to Iran, saying

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<v Speaker 4>that they would most likely be killed, a calling on

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<v Speaker 4>Australia's Prime Minister Anthony Albanesi to grant them asylum.

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<v Speaker 1>Not long after that, Donald Trump backtracked and set the

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<v Speaker 1>record straight.

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<v Speaker 5>In a truth social post.

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<v Speaker 4>The President says Albanese is on it. Five players have

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<v Speaker 4>already been taken care of and the rest are on

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<v Speaker 4>their way home.

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<v Speaker 1>But in those few short hours before it was clarified,

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<v Speaker 1>misinformation had already taken hold. Social media posts that accused

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<v Speaker 1>Australia of not helping their running women's soccer team and

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<v Speaker 1>falsely claimed Albanesi lied to Trump about giving them asylum

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<v Speaker 1>were viewed millions of times on x and some mainstream

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<v Speaker 1>media got the story wrong, portraying Trump as the trigger

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<v Speaker 1>for Albow's decision. A key person involved in this the

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<v Speaker 1>President of the United States. He of course, posted on

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<v Speaker 1>truth social Australia is making This is just one example

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<v Speaker 1>of the wave of misinformation we're drowning in as we

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<v Speaker 1>struggle to figure out what's true and what's just been

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<v Speaker 1>made up. I'm Nicole Johnston and you're listening to seven

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<v Speaker 1>AM today, ABC journalist and host of a new doco,

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<v Speaker 1>The Matter of Facts, Hamish McDonald on how do we

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<v Speaker 1>work out what to believe in a post truth world?

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<v Speaker 1>It's Monday, March twenty three. Hamish, we just heard this

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<v Speaker 1>example about Trump and the Iranian women's soccer team. But

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<v Speaker 1>when it comes to misinformation and disinformation, that is probably

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<v Speaker 1>just a drop in the ocean. So what are some

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<v Speaker 1>of the examples that you came across that really shocked you?

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<v Speaker 1>And what is the difference between misinformation and disinformation anyway, So.

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<v Speaker 2>Misinformation broadly, and there are slightly different interpretations of this,

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<v Speaker 2>but broadly misinformation can be false information, but the person

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<v Speaker 2>who's spreading it or share it might think that it's true.

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<v Speaker 2>So this example you just had then of Trump and

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<v Speaker 2>the Iranian women's soccer team, I think that's probably a

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<v Speaker 2>strong example of misinformation. Disinformation is where it's deliberate false information,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe even created knowing that it's false, and then disseminated,

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<v Speaker 2>perhaps for a specific or a vague purpose, sometimes by

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<v Speaker 2>another country that's trying to sow a particular narrative thread

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<v Speaker 2>into another country's information system. Or it might be individuals

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<v Speaker 2>or organizations or lobby groups, or just trolls and bots.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of the time the disinformation is literally being

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<v Speaker 2>made by computers at the moment and then finding its

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<v Speaker 2>way into your social media feed, and there's a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of it. It's everywhere, like stories that we've covered and

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<v Speaker 2>reported on recently, things like the Bondai terror attack. I

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<v Speaker 2>remember in the days after that a colleague coming to

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<v Speaker 2>me and saying, oh, have you seen this photograph of

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<v Speaker 2>the two female police officers standing by and not doing anything? Actually,

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<v Speaker 2>the original wider view of that image shows some very

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<v Speaker 2>compassionate police officers trying to ward off members of the

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<v Speaker 2>public from going near the active shooter situation.

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<v Speaker 1>The later stats from the country's media regulator shows more

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<v Speaker 1>than seventy percent of Australians think that they've come across

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<v Speaker 1>misinformation online. So how savvy do you think we are

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<v Speaker 1>really about trying to work out what's real and what's not.

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<v Speaker 2>The headline news Nikki is that we're not very good.

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<v Speaker 2>What emerged for us as we made this series and

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<v Speaker 2>conducted a series of social experiments with Australians just engaging

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<v Speaker 2>with media and information is that the better that you

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<v Speaker 2>think you are at spotting a fake, the less likely

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<v Speaker 2>you are to actually identify it accurately. And this is

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<v Speaker 2>essentially because our brains are trained to trick us, and

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<v Speaker 2>so if we think that we're onto it, it kind

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<v Speaker 2>of reduces our chances of spotting the fake image.

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<v Speaker 1>What about your mum?

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<v Speaker 2>My wonderful mum was doved in to this TV series

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<v Speaker 2>to see whether or not she could spot a fake

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<v Speaker 2>version of me. And the case here is that I've

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<v Speaker 2>been learning to do Scottish dancing or Highland dancing.

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<v Speaker 4>So you know, I've been.

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<v Speaker 2>Very busy, Yes, always busy. I've been working on this

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<v Speaker 2>as well as other things, but I've also been learning

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<v Speaker 2>some new skills, all right. What was really interesting was

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<v Speaker 2>kind of observing not just the mind game unfold for Mum,

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<v Speaker 2>that kind of quizzical look and that sort of nervousness

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<v Speaker 2>and caution and discomfort that I think we all experience

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<v Speaker 2>when we're not sure whether what we're looking at is

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<v Speaker 2>real or fake?

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<v Speaker 6>Oh my gorgeous.

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<v Speaker 2>But then as it unfolded, as she realized that it

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<v Speaker 2>was a fake and that she was kind of half tricked,

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<v Speaker 2>the emotion that came with that. Do you look out

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<v Speaker 2>very eyed?

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think?

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, well, I do look at things that are and

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<v Speaker 5>I do spot them usually.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my god, it has rattled me.

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<v Speaker 2>It's very clever.

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<v Speaker 3>Love you, Love you too.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think for me that that was quite profound,

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<v Speaker 2>because it is unsettling for us if we have a

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<v Speaker 2>realization that we can't believe the very thing that is

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<v Speaker 2>right in front of our eyes. It's kind of profound

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<v Speaker 2>for that reason, because I think it speaks to the

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<v Speaker 2>the inner the kind of primal instinct that we all have,

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<v Speaker 2>which wants to believe what what we can see and

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<v Speaker 2>feel in touch. And maybe that's no longer the case.

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<v Speaker 1>I've seen you in a photo of a kilt, so

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<v Speaker 1>I can understand why your mum thought you might be

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<v Speaker 1>up for the dancing. But we know, Haimo, that there

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<v Speaker 1>is this sort of growing suspicion around the world about facts,

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<v Speaker 1>definitely about the mainstream media. How dangerous do you think

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<v Speaker 1>that is for our democracy? If people can't even agree

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<v Speaker 1>on what's real anymore.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think for me that's the kind of core

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<v Speaker 2>question underpinning this whole series is what happens to democratic society,

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<v Speaker 2>what happens to community, what happens to our ability to

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<v Speaker 2>solve problems if we can't agree on a set of

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<v Speaker 2>facts to begin with. And I actually think it is

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<v Speaker 2>a really profound challenge for us. Do you remember when

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<v Speaker 2>Trump first got elected and Kellyanne Conway gave that interview

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<v Speaker 2>and she talked about, well, there are alternative facts. That

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<v Speaker 2>was shocking at the time.

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<v Speaker 4>You're saying it's a falsehood, and they're giving Sean Spacer,

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<v Speaker 4>our Press secretary geb alternative facts to that.

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<v Speaker 1>But the point.

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<v Speaker 5>Alternative facts, alternative facts. Four of the five facts he uttered.

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<v Speaker 5>The one thing he got Zeke Miller, four of the

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<v Speaker 5>five facts he uttered, We're just not true. Look, alternative

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<v Speaker 5>facts are not facts, they're falsehoods.

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<v Speaker 2>But that was only what do we say, like six

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<v Speaker 2>to ten years ago, And think about the world we

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<v Speaker 2>exist in now. Almost everyone seems to have their own

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<v Speaker 2>set of facts, and I think we have to consider,

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<v Speaker 2>we have to ask ourselves what happens to functioning democratic,

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<v Speaker 2>enfranchised society where everyone has a stake if everyone's just

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<v Speaker 2>allowed to have their own set of facts, and we

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<v Speaker 2>can't agree on a set of facts to.

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<v Speaker 1>Begin with, coming up what to do when so much

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<v Speaker 1>of what we see is untrue heymish. Let's talk about

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<v Speaker 1>disinformation and how it's being used in war, especially in

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<v Speaker 1>countries like Russia.

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<v Speaker 2>So we traveled to the Poland Belarus border as part

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<v Speaker 2>of this series to look at a concept called hybrid

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<v Speaker 2>warfare grey zone tactics you might have heard of before.

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<v Speaker 2>The accusation that Poland and the European Union level at

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<v Speaker 2>Russia is that they're heavily engaged in grey zone tactics.

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<v Speaker 2>In this instance, the assertion is that Russia and Belarus,

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<v Speaker 2>which is essentially a client state or vassal state of Russia,

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<v Speaker 2>have been deliberately bringing migrants from Africa the Middle East

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<v Speaker 2>to the Polish border, where there's a huge six meters

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<v Speaker 2>high fence and forcing them over.

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<v Speaker 4>It is an abuse of some of the world's most

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<v Speaker 4>vulnerable people, migrants turned into weapons in a political battle.

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<v Speaker 7>We absolutely share the assessment that this is a hybrid

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<v Speaker 7>attack of an authoritarian regime to try to destabilize democratic neighbors,

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<v Speaker 7>and this will not succeed.

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<v Speaker 2>And so this happens at particular times in the electoral cycle.

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<v Speaker 2>And this is coupled with floods of disinformation being sent

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<v Speaker 2>through the domestic social media channels. So in local Polish

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<v Speaker 2>language social media images footage sometimes manipulated posts about all

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<v Speaker 2>of these people coming from the Middle East, Arabs or

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<v Speaker 2>Africans coming. They're gonna build a mosque in your village. Look,

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<v Speaker 2>your government's lost control of the borders.

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<v Speaker 8>On Saturday, thousands of people took part in anti immigration

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<v Speaker 8>marches organized by the Farret Confederation party. The marches took

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<v Speaker 8>place in more than eighty cities across Poland. Demonstrators demanded

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<v Speaker 8>the closure of the border.

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<v Speaker 2>What we found is that not only is this happening

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<v Speaker 2>in the sort of digital sphere, but there's actually real

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<v Speaker 2>humans that are getting caught up in this. So went

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<v Speaker 2>to the Belarus border, walked for hours into this deep

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<v Speaker 2>dense forest.

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<v Speaker 3>They've just received a request for help from two people

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<v Speaker 3>from Afghanistan and they're waiting right now for their individual.

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<v Speaker 2>Needs to find at a pin in a map. Two

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<v Speaker 2>Afghans that had been brought on these cheap visas, with

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<v Speaker 2>these cheap travel packages promised to cheap an easy way

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<v Speaker 2>into Europe, only to then find themselves stuck and stranded

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<v Speaker 2>in this primeval forest in eastern Europe. One of them

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<v Speaker 2>his wound was so thick and deep it looked like

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<v Speaker 2>it was turning septic. It's a very big word, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's probabetical attention. So there's a there's a genuine human

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<v Speaker 2>cost to this. But in terms of the objective, often

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<v Speaker 2>it's deliberately ambiguous. It's not clear necessarily that Russia is

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<v Speaker 2>trying to get one political party or another elected. It's

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<v Speaker 2>to sow confusion, it's to so doubt, it's to undermine

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<v Speaker 2>trust in democratic process and government and institutions. It's designed

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<v Speaker 2>to make people confused and hamish.

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<v Speaker 1>We know that some countries are also using these types

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<v Speaker 1>of disinformation campaigns instead of going to war, for example, China,

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<v Speaker 1>they've really been going to town with all of their

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<v Speaker 1>online messaging regarding Taiwan. So what did you find out there?

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<v Speaker 1>What are they doing, what are they saying and is

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<v Speaker 1>it even working?

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<v Speaker 2>As with all missing disinformation, it's often a bit opaque.

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<v Speaker 2>But I think what you can observe is that there

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<v Speaker 2>are very clearly disinformation campaigns that are run against pro

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<v Speaker 2>independence politicians. So that's very clear. That's overt that's well documented.

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<v Speaker 2>But then there is the more subtle stuff, the sort

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<v Speaker 2>of narratives, the music, the Chinese mainland nationalist ideology that

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<v Speaker 2>is pushed through some of these more subtle media mechanisms.

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<v Speaker 2>It could be a musician, it could be a cartoon.

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<v Speaker 2>I think Taiwan is a fascinating example because the population

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<v Speaker 2>is so aware and are so alive to the threat

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<v Speaker 2>of China that they're quite motivated. They're quite activated on

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<v Speaker 2>these issues in a way that I don't think we

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<v Speaker 2>necessarily are in Australia. So they think about arming themselves

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<v Speaker 2>both physically, you know, with self defense classes against a

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<v Speaker 2>possible mainland Chinese invasion at some point, but they are

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<v Speaker 2>also training themselves in navigating this and disinformation media literacy awareness,

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<v Speaker 2>how do we combat this. They were the first jurisdiction

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<v Speaker 2>in the world to have a disinformation minister.

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<v Speaker 6>Always look at this foreign adversary or attacks were as

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<v Speaker 6>our natural disasters, as ways for conflict to not turn

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<v Speaker 6>into explosion, but rather see them like fire on the ground,

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<v Speaker 6>not to be put out.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think they're really interesting because they're also looking

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<v Speaker 2>at ways that you might be able to use some

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<v Speaker 2>of this technology that's emerging to fight back against this.

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<v Speaker 3>If we have done effecta king, we need to promote

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<v Speaker 3>our affectaking results to people we try to dissemine, add

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<v Speaker 3>those spectacle poles through all the social media where we

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<v Speaker 3>collect those disinformation and rumorous.

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<v Speaker 1>Hamish. It all sounds very overwhelming. We have so much

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<v Speaker 1>information constantly coming at us in all directions. So is

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<v Speaker 1>there anything we can really do about this? Can we

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<v Speaker 1>combat it? Regulate it? Is there any way to hold

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<v Speaker 1>back this tide of information that we're drowning in, especially

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<v Speaker 1>when so much of it is simply not true.

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<v Speaker 2>Certainly regulation is an option, but I think we've seen

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<v Speaker 2>with the under sixteen social media ban that's incredibly difficult

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<v Speaker 2>to do. Not impossible, but very difficult to do. It's

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<v Speaker 2>also complicated territory if you have governments getting into determining

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<v Speaker 2>what is real and fake, what's miss and disinformation. Because

0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:24.240
<v Speaker 2>obviously some of this you know at least that the

0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:29.760
<v Speaker 2>fringes can be somewhat open to interpretation. That said, something

0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:33.400
<v Speaker 2>that really for me is a positive and gives me

0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:37.000
<v Speaker 2>heart in all of this, is that to some extent

0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:41.080
<v Speaker 2>the best responses are individual ones. You can arm yourself.

0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:45.040
<v Speaker 2>You know, in Finland they're teaching miss and disinformation and

0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:49.640
<v Speaker 2>media literacy skills two children from primary school up. So

0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:54.080
<v Speaker 2>everything from like triangulating information. If you read something on

0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:56.800
<v Speaker 2>social media or see something on social media, if that

0:14:56.840 --> 0:15:00.240
<v Speaker 2>makes you feel alarmed or provokes an emotional reaction, and

0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:03.720
<v Speaker 2>learn that that's a red flag for you. That means

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<v Speaker 2>you need to go and find at least two other

0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:10.240
<v Speaker 2>sources of information on that same story, from reliable, trusted

0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:13.960
<v Speaker 2>sources of information and news, and make sure you go

0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:17.120
<v Speaker 2>to their websites, not their social media pages, go to

0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:19.680
<v Speaker 2>the actual source of the information. So these are the

0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:22.240
<v Speaker 2>sorts of things I think we clearly could be teaching

0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:25.560
<v Speaker 2>to children in Australia. And the other thing is we

0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:30.000
<v Speaker 2>meet this fantastic academic Marion Wolf, who's studying the impacts

0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:33.480
<v Speaker 2>of all of this digital consumption on our brain. She says,

0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:36.320
<v Speaker 2>the single greatest act of defiance that you as an

0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:40.120
<v Speaker 2>individual can do in this age of AI and missing

0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:44.760
<v Speaker 2>disinformation is to pick up a physical book. A physical book,

0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:48.840
<v Speaker 2>sit down and read. It can be fiction, can be nonfiction,

0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:51.960
<v Speaker 2>but it is good for your brain. It is good

0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:54.720
<v Speaker 2>for your soul. It is good for your heart to

0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:57.360
<v Speaker 2>pick up a physical book and read it, and that

0:15:58.000 --> 0:15:58.920
<v Speaker 2>is a powerful tool.

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<v Speaker 1>Couldn't agree more, Hamish, thanks so much for joining us.

0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:04.440
<v Speaker 8>It's been great to talk to you.

0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:05.600
<v Speaker 2>Go read your book, Niki.

0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:17.600
<v Speaker 1>Also in the news, one Nation looks to have achieved

0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:21.880
<v Speaker 1>its best electoral result in nearly thirty years, its vote

0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:25.520
<v Speaker 1>surging the South Australian state election. It will take days

0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:28.200
<v Speaker 1>to determine how many seats the party will hold, but

0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:31.920
<v Speaker 1>Pauline Hansen has warned every winning candidate will be a

0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:37.880
<v Speaker 1>political landmine for Premier Peter Malinowskis. Malinowskas claimed Labour's largest

0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:42.359
<v Speaker 1>victory in South Australia's history, while the Liberal Party vote collapsed,

0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:47.320
<v Speaker 1>and Energy Minister Chris Bowen says the federal government is

0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:52.000
<v Speaker 1>not contemplating fuel rationing. Bowen says the Fuel Emergency Act

0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:55.440
<v Speaker 1>is only to be invoked in extreme shortages and has

0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:59.160
<v Speaker 1>never been used. So far, only six of eighty one

0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:02.680
<v Speaker 1>ships carrying fuel to Australia have been canceled, but a

0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:06.760
<v Speaker 1>one hundred percent increase in demand has seen shortages, particularly

0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:11.520
<v Speaker 1>in regional areas. I'm Nicole Johnston. This is seven am.

0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:12.359
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening,