1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:08,520 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:11,720 Sean Aylmer: The acknowledgment last week by the US that huge tariffs 3 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:16,520 Sean Aylmer: against China are unsustainable was a significant de escalation and 4 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:19,319 Sean Aylmer: the trade war started by the Trump administration. But just 5 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:21,400 Sean Aylmer: one hundred days in the White House has seen the 6 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,440 Sean Aylmer: US President shake up global trade and that in turn 7 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:27,240 Sean Aylmer: has had an impact on the election here and in 8 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,960 Sean Aylmer: Canada as well. Joining me now is Professor Tim Harcourt 9 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,199 Sean Aylmer: from the Institute of Public Policy and Governance at UTS 10 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,720 Sean Aylmer: and host of course of the Airport Economist and Footy Nomics. 11 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,199 Sean Aylmer: Tim is also a former Chief Economist at the Australian 12 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,120 Sean Aylmer: Trade Commission. He joins me in the studio this morning. Tim, 13 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:44,400 Sean Aylmer: welcome back to Fear and Greed. 14 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:45,440 Tim Harcourt: Good to be back here. 15 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,440 Sean Aylmer: So Tim, I reckon, you spent most of your life 16 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:52,879 Sean Aylmer: arguing against tariffs. What's a man like you do in 17 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:54,480 Sean Aylmer: a year like twenty twenty five. 18 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:56,960 Tim Harcourt: Isn't it incredible? You know, particularly when I was at 19 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,000 Tim Harcourt: the IC to you and most people were still protectionists, 20 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:02,600 Tim Harcourt: and I'd say, well, you know, tariffs are bad for workers. 21 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,920 Tim Harcourt: You know, exports paid better wages, better health and safety, 22 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:08,800 Tim Harcourt: provide more jobs, you're better off been for an open 23 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:11,440 Tim Harcourt: economy for a country like Australia, And none of them 24 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:13,360 Tim Harcourt: believed me. They called me a free trader and this 25 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,920 Tim Harcourt: and that. Now all of a sudden because Donald Trump 26 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:21,600 Tim Harcourt: has brought in tariffs there against them, so ironically I'm 27 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:24,480 Tim Harcourt: now in favor, but I'm at an unfortunate cost for 28 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:25,240 Tim Harcourt: the world economy. 29 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:31,280 Sean Aylmer: So is there any sense behind Trump's tariff argument. 30 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:34,920 Tim Harcourt: I think the problem for people like you and II 31 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,679 Tim Harcourt: Sean is we try and see it into of economics, 32 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:41,440 Tim Harcourt: into the economic policy, but it's not. It's about power, 33 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,840 Tim Harcourt: and it's about how he negotiates. So as a property developer, 34 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,040 Tim Harcourt: he grabs something, whack it on the table, and then 35 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:50,720 Tim Harcourt: gets you to negotiate it off. And so what I 36 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,480 Tim Harcourt: think he wanted to do was to basically whack on 37 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:55,840 Tim Harcourt: all these tariffs for all sorts of reasons and then 38 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,520 Tim Harcourt: get everyone to come to him to get him off, 39 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,200 Tim Harcourt: you know. And we saw those funny memes of the 40 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:04,480 Tim Harcourt: penguins going to the White House to negotiate the tariffs off. 41 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:06,480 Tim Harcourt: And so I think it's part of I'm going to 42 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,600 Tim Harcourt: make myself the sense of the world trading system instead 43 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:12,200 Tim Harcourt: of the world Trade organization in Geneva. So it's all 44 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:19,000 Tim Harcourt: about negotiating an attactic not really bad economics doesn't work 45 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,040 Tim Harcourt: because in a sense I dare say, where we end 46 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:24,880 Tim Harcourt: up is we will end up when in Australia or 47 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:29,400 Tim Harcourt: have a ten percent tariff, probably China'll have forty fifty 48 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:30,480 Tim Harcourt: sixty percent tariffs. 49 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:33,880 Sean Aylmer: Is there? I mean doesn't work to us in a 50 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:37,240 Sean Aylmer: sense that he starts this incredible and negotiating position and 51 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:40,160 Sean Aylmer: then we all come to something that's a bit fairer. 52 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:42,600 Sean Aylmer: Or are we actually forgetting the wood from the trees 53 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:44,240 Sean Aylmer: here and saying we just shouldn't have tariffs? 54 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,359 Tim Harcourt: Well, you know, a first best world, you wouldn't. A 55 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:52,120 Tim Harcourt: second best world you get them off unilaterally or multilaterally. 56 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,640 Tim Harcourt: And unfortunately, a third best world is when countries do 57 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:59,320 Tim Harcourt: it bilaterally like we're seeing here. I got to say, though, 58 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,280 Tim Harcourt: everyone being very upset about Trump and the United States, 59 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:06,799 Tim Harcourt: China did China started this? Yeah, I mean China put 60 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,760 Tim Harcourt: the tariffs on Australia two hundred and twenty percent on wine, 61 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,600 Tim Harcourt: where you know Trump it's ten percent. Over the fact, 62 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,640 Tim Harcourt: we had the audacity to call for an inquiry into 63 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,400 Tim Harcourt: COVID so that we wouldn't perhaps have another pandemic and 64 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:21,680 Tim Harcourt: we knew how to deal with and they put tariffs 65 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:25,280 Tim Harcourt: on us for geopolitical reasons. And in some ways, you know, 66 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:29,080 Tim Harcourt: Trump saw this as you can use tariffs as a 67 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:34,080 Tim Harcourt: weapon over immigration or fetanoh or whatever you like free speech, 68 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,440 Tim Harcourt: because he saw Jijiping do it to Australia over an 69 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,600 Tim Harcourt: inquiry into COVID. So in some ways China started this 70 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:43,760 Tim Harcourt: and Trump has escalated it. 71 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,960 Sean Aylmer: I mean, we're always seeing embargoes against Russia, against countries 72 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:49,400 Sean Aylmer: in the Middle East, so it's kind of all in 73 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,600 Sean Aylmer: that same sphere. What about the politics of it, particularly 74 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:53,880 Sean Aylmer: for Australia. 75 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:58,080 Tim Harcourt: Well, I think the reason that Anthony Albereesi's in such 76 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,840 Tim Harcourt: a strong position in the election is for three reasons Trump, 77 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:06,720 Tim Harcourt: Trump and Trump, you know, I mean, I mean late 78 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,800 Tim Harcourt: last year the opposition was doing reasonably well and Albo 79 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,680 Tim Harcourt: was you know, he was being prompted by his and 80 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,320 Tim Harcourt: persuaded by his colleagues to put off the election. And 81 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,400 Tim Harcourt: then the psychle On Alfred came in, but he delayed 82 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,799 Tim Harcourt: and is in a much stronger position since Donald Trump 83 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,880 Tim Harcourt: returned to the White House. And you know, we've seen 84 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,960 Tim Harcourt: a similar case with Mark Carney in Canada, I mean 85 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,800 Tim Harcourt: the Liberal Party in Canada under Justin Trudeau had been 86 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:36,080 Tim Harcourt: in for a decade. They are in trouble. Mark Carney, 87 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:40,039 Tim Harcourt: central banker, former central banker, lot you and I hasn't 88 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,640 Tim Harcourt: even got a seat world changer. It's even got a seat. 89 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,360 Tim Harcourt: And he becomes the Prime minister and everything changes. So 90 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:49,920 Tim Harcourt: maybe we should have stayed at the Reserve Bank. Sure 91 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:51,720 Tim Harcourt: we might might have been where he is. 92 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:56,560 Sean Aylmer: You might have been. I'm sure I wasn't. Future made 93 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:00,479 Sean Aylmer: in Australia. That policy, Wow, does it makes. 94 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,520 Tim Harcourt: Sense well in some way. In some ways it does 95 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:05,760 Tim Harcourt: because you don't want to go around jacking tariffs up again. 96 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:10,080 Tim Harcourt: But I think what we learned through COVID is that 97 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:14,760 Tim Harcourt: you can't have everything offshore for geopolitical security reasons. You 98 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,520 Tim Harcourt: don't want to have everything on shore either, so you 99 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:19,919 Tim Harcourt: do need to diversify a bit. And there are things 100 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,680 Tim Harcourt: in manufacturing, and I'm not talking about textile clothing and 101 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,359 Tim Harcourt: footwear and so on, but there are certain things in 102 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,880 Tim Harcourt: manufacturing and Australia does do reasonably well and you can 103 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:35,000 Tim Harcourt: give reasonable support, which is instead of putting up tariffs 104 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:38,640 Tim Harcourt: and putting in foreign investment, restrictions, and I think every 105 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,160 Tim Harcourt: country in the world has something similar. They might not 106 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:43,920 Tim Harcourt: call it exactly the same thing as that catchy future 107 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,679 Tim Harcourt: Made in Australia tagline, but I'm sure they have something 108 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:48,360 Tim Harcourt: reasonably simple. 109 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,360 Sean Aylmer: But it is about That's about picking winners, though, isn't it. 110 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:55,240 Tim Harcourt: It's about providing the right conditions so that winners pick themselves. 111 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,440 Tim Harcourt: But to some extent, yeah, I think it's given assistance 112 00:05:58,480 --> 00:05:59,839 Tim Harcourt: to some in a way. 113 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,080 Sean Aylmer: You could be Mark Garney. I said, is that about 114 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,440 Sean Aylmer: picking winners? And you said, it's providing assistance so those 115 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:05,000 Sean Aylmer: picked themselves. 116 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:06,520 Tim Harcourt: I've learned a bit from him, I think the last 117 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:08,120 Tim Harcourt: few weeks. So with me. 118 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:17,160 Sean Aylmer: Tim will be back in a minute. I'm speaking to 119 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,000 Sean Aylmer: you Professor Tim Harcourt from the University of Technology, Sydney 120 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,440 Sean Aylmer: and host of the Airport Economist. So with all this 121 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:28,479 Sean Aylmer: going on internationally, how important is it for Australia to 122 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:31,400 Sean Aylmer: take the opportunity to do a free trade agreement with 123 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,880 Sean Aylmer: Europe if at all possible, to look to Asia to 124 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,000 Sean Aylmer: improve our relations with them. It's not like we're big 125 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,080 Sean Aylmer: trading partners with the US anyway, I mean, apart from 126 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:44,880 Sean Aylmer: a few products. But is it an opportunity for Australia 127 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:46,200 Sean Aylmer: to reach out to other countries. 128 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:48,520 Tim Harcourt: It's a good point. I mean, with America, it's really 129 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,680 Tim Harcourt: an investment partner and many of our big companies are 130 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,480 Tim Harcourt: based there. With Europe, it's interesting. Europeans were the famous 131 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,880 Tim Harcourt: protectionists when the cost of the Common Agricultural Policy you 132 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:01,360 Tim Harcourt: could send all the cows from France around the world 133 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,719 Tim Harcourt: twice on business class, you know, and we knew it 134 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,520 Tim Harcourt: was inefficient. The Europeans now need friends, you know. They're 135 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,400 Tim Harcourt: now doing deals with Mark Carney, They're now coming back 136 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,040 Tim Harcourt: to the table with Don Farrell. So I think Europe 137 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:16,680 Tim Harcourt: will be more positive now than it used to be. 138 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:19,320 Tim Harcourt: What I'm interested in and the other and easy government's 139 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:21,239 Tim Harcourt: done this to some extent, is to look at Asian, 140 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,280 Tim Harcourt: to look at India, to look at our Northeast Asian friends, 141 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:29,360 Tim Harcourt: you know, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, those places that are 142 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:32,760 Tim Harcourt: hungry for energy. They've got a demand for food and 143 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,040 Tim Harcourt: agriculture and a lot of the things that Australia does 144 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:35,559 Tim Harcourt: very well. 145 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,280 Sean Aylmer: I mean, you are the airport economists, and I know 146 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,600 Sean Aylmer: you've been to some of those countries recently. Are they 147 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,880 Sean Aylmer: interested in Australia. What do they see Australian offer them. 148 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:50,560 Tim Harcourt: I was just in India in Bengalaru, Bangalore and Chennai, 149 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:55,640 Tim Harcourt: and of course they're interested in Australian innovation and India 150 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,840 Tim Harcourt: gives them scales, you know. So I had a small 151 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:04,400 Tim Harcourt: chemicals company called Callington that provides different chemical services for aircraft. 152 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:06,720 Tim Harcourt: They're based in Chennai and they can serve us all 153 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,760 Tim Harcourt: of India and Qatar and the Middle East and be 154 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:15,040 Tim Harcourt: based in that port city. Bangalore, India has an incredible 155 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:21,160 Tim Harcourt: space program and Space Machines is a startup based at 156 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,440 Tim Harcourt: uts actually at Botany, and it basically is like the 157 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,440 Tim Harcourt: NRMA for satellites. So if your satellite breaks down, Space 158 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,200 Tim Harcourt: Machines will come and fix it. So they've got it. 159 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,240 Tim Harcourt: They're based in Bengalaru at the sort of the hub 160 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,079 Tim Harcourt: of Indian space. So I think there's I think there's 161 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,520 Tim Harcourt: opportunities there. And I was also in Taiwan last year 162 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:42,000 Tim Harcourt: and what I noticed was that there's a lot of 163 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:47,600 Tim Harcourt: Taiwanese investment in southern India, in Bengalaru, in semiconductors and 164 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:51,600 Tim Harcourt: in ai because Taiwan is also thinking about this brave 165 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,720 Tim Harcourt: new world and where they want to diversify their their production. 166 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,240 Tim Harcourt: And we heard of course that you know, Apple's moved 167 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,839 Tim Harcourt: sixty percent of its production from China to India. So 168 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,040 Tim Harcourt: obviously India and Taiwan are making a bit of a 169 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,240 Tim Harcourt: play there and that's quite good news for Australia. 170 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,240 Sean Aylmer: Is India as bureaucratic as it used. 171 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,760 Tim Harcourt: To be, not anymore? Not? I mean I went to 172 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:18,800 Tim Harcourt: the Tatar campus in Chennaia, the Tata Consultancy Services and 173 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,679 Tim Harcourt: can you imagine, you know, they now have digital passports 174 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:26,280 Tim Harcourt: in India that you don't use cash, you know, thirty 175 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:28,160 Tim Harcourt: years ago, and I went there on my tiktook. I 176 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:32,400 Tim Harcourt: was pulling I was ripped off in India thirty years ago, 177 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:37,600 Tim Harcourt: probably were, but I was pulling packets of rupees. You 178 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,320 Tim Harcourt: don't use cash in India now, and so you know, 179 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:43,840 Tim Harcourt: a villager, you know, a villager will pay for his 180 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,240 Tim Harcourt: groceries using his phone, you know. So it's quite different. 181 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,199 Tim Harcourt: And Tata's extraordinary because they're you know, famous all over 182 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:52,839 Tim Harcourt: the world and they're working with Australian companies here. And 183 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,560 Tim Harcourt: you go through the usual past, the sacred cows and 184 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:59,040 Tim Harcourt: the tiktooks and all the all the craziness in color 185 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,720 Tim Harcourt: of India and when you hit this space age campus 186 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,280 Tim Harcourt: on the outskirts of Chennai, so quite quite an extraordinary scene, 187 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:07,559 Tim Harcourt: so very different than it used to be India. 188 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,040 Sean Aylmer: What about Indonesia? How big an opportunity is that? So 189 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,440 Sean Aylmer: many people, so many people. It's interesting with Indonesiaca. It's 190 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,319 Sean Aylmer: always very close to us. And when I was at Australia, 191 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:18,240 Sean Aylmer: I found we had more exporters going to do Bai 192 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:23,040 Sean Aylmer: than say Indonesia. And Indonesia's really like your Brazil's, like 193 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,679 Sean Aylmer: the United States. Big domestic market was never seen as 194 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,480 Sean Aylmer: a low cost sort of production place like the rest 195 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:33,320 Sean Aylmer: of parts of Southeast Asia. It was always an internal 196 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:36,720 Sean Aylmer: domestic market and that's what the Indonesian story is. But 197 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:41,000 Sean Aylmer: I think for Australia, ties with defense and education is 198 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,599 Sean Aylmer: pretty good. And you know we have at uts, we 199 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:46,520 Sean Aylmer: have you know, startup programs with Asian that are centered 200 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,920 Sean Aylmer: on Indonesia. So yeah, a big country with an amazing 201 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,320 Sean Aylmer: middle class, you're going to get those opportunities. When's the 202 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:54,760 Sean Aylmer: next book you've had? You said off air, you said, 203 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:57,680 Sean Aylmer: what seven sort of eco trade books? One footy book, 204 00:10:58,120 --> 00:10:58,760 Sean Aylmer: which one's old? 205 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,480 Tim Harcourt: Best foot nomics? Yeah, footy nomics is outpaced all the 206 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:03,200 Tim Harcourt: other trade books, believe it or not. And if it 207 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,080 Tim Harcourt: wasn't for Donald Trump, I don't think i'd be able 208 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,280 Tim Harcourt: to talk try as much in the media. So yeah, 209 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:09,079 Tim Harcourt: I did economics as sport for a bit of a 210 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,720 Tim Harcourt: bit of fun and also been at sports nut like 211 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,040 Tim Harcourt: most Australians. But I found it fascinating. Not only you 212 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,000 Tim Harcourt: know our summer sports like cricket that are so big 213 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,319 Tim Harcourt: in the IPR and there's so much investment in Australia, 214 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:21,679 Tim Harcourt: but the fact that we have four footy codes for 215 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,800 Tim Harcourt: football codes in Australia, you know, with the demand for 216 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:29,200 Tim Harcourt: talent and fans and broadcastings extraordinary. Most countries have just 217 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,160 Tim Harcourt: soccer or maybe soccer and rugby union, but we have 218 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,120 Tim Harcourt: four so makes it quite a Does it work. I 219 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,040 Tim Harcourt: think it does and the consumer wins because you get 220 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:40,520 Tim Harcourt: so much choice, that's true. Tim, Thank you for talking 221 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:41,719 Tim Harcourt: to Fear and Greed. Thank you. 222 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,720 Sean Aylmer: It was Professor Tim Harcourt from the Institute of Public 223 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,360 Sean Aylmer: Policy and Governance at UTS and host of the Airport 224 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:49,840 Sean Aylmer: Economists and Footy Nomics. This is the Fear and Greed 225 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,400 Sean Aylmer: Business Interview. Join us every morning for the full episode 226 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,480 Sean Aylmer: off Fear and Greed. Business news for people who make 227 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,160 Sean Aylmer: their own decisions. I'm Chane Elmer. Enjoy you day.