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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Mentor. I'm Mark Boris Odette Barry. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to the Mentor.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Now you're the founder of Odette and Co. What do

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Speaker 1: you guys do.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm a publicist, and I guess I'm probably doing

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Speaker 2: things a little bit differently. I actually teach people how

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Speaker 2: to do their own PR as the main bread and

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Speaker 2: butter of our work. So we're a micro PR agency

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Speaker 2: based out of Byron Bay, and we really focus on

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Speaker 2: working with change makers, so people that are really disrupting

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Speaker 2: their industry and trying to focus that energy around making

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Speaker 2: the world a bit of a better place.

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Speaker 1: So you just said use tours really interestingly then, and

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Speaker 1: the two words always confused me. I'm sure a lot

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Speaker 1: of listeners would be not sure where they mean either.

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Speaker 1: So you said publicists and you use the two words PR,

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Speaker 1: which is public relations. Maybe you could just tell me

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Speaker 1: what you mean by a publicist, So, I know, roxy

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Speaker 1: just saying it as a publicist, right, which basically means

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Speaker 1: she will get if I wanted to, she would get

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Speaker 1: me in a paper somewhere or in a radio or

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Speaker 1: something like that. What is actually a publicist do?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such a good question because honestly, like I

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Speaker 2: would say, nine times out of ten, most people don't

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Speaker 2: understand what PR is. Look I think prs are ultimately middleman.

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Speaker 2: It's our gig to help our clients to get visibility,

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Speaker 2: and that's changed a lot over the years, and particularly

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Speaker 2: in the last decade. I think traditionally a publicist's role

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Speaker 2: would be to try and position their client in a

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Speaker 2: positive light in front of the right audiences. So that's

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Speaker 2: like the bread and butter. But I think what how

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Speaker 2: I really feel about it is to I like to

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Speaker 2: use to think about PR as being a vehicle for

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Speaker 2: changing the hearts and minds of people across whatever channel.

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Speaker 1: That is.

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Speaker 2: So traditionally that might have been magazines, newspapers, television. These

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Speaker 2: days that sort of moved into the podcast space, into

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Speaker 2: the influencer landscape, digital media. So our role has really

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Speaker 2: evolved and the space that we operate. But yeah, helping

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Speaker 2: people become visible.

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Speaker 1: What's interesting about that is if you ask, say Cornwell

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Speaker 1: Bank or Telstra how many people they got their PR department,

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Speaker 1: they'll tell you there'll be a heap. The public relations

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Speaker 1: in those environments is a lot different to the sort

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Speaker 1: of public relations and or publicist services that maybe your

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Speaker 1: clients want totally, because PR in those environments is more

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Speaker 1: about governance and protecting the brand as opposed to promoting

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Speaker 1: the brand. Hosing down a problem there could have been

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Speaker 1: a data breach or something like that. Like that's when

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Speaker 1: the public relations teams comes in totally. How do we

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Speaker 1: manage this shitty outcome and make sure there's not too

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Speaker 1: much damage damage control? Yeah, and or making sure nothing

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Speaker 1: goes out that could create damage control. So a lot

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Speaker 1: of times it's about diluting the announcement.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And look, I think there's you know, probably twenty

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Speaker 2: different streams of PR from crisis management to you know,

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Speaker 2: reputation management through to you know internal communications. As being

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Speaker 2: part of that the space that you know, like at UNI,

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Speaker 2: I was learning how to manage an oil spill on

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Speaker 2: behalf of a you know, oil company, and how you

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Speaker 2: would mitigate the reputational damage. That's not the space I

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Speaker 2: work in at all. That's I think I'd be terrible

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Speaker 2: in that domain. I The way that I work with

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Speaker 2: PR is actually you know, much smaller end of town.

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Speaker 2: So those emerging leaders, emerging businesses that really just want

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Speaker 2: to try and get visible, so they're not really having

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Speaker 2: to worry about those negative you know, crises that are

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Speaker 2: popping up from some kind of disaster, tech breach, or

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Speaker 2: whatever it might be. They're really good news stories, so

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Speaker 2: they're a lot easier to put out there. I think

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Speaker 2: once you have a more established name, there's a bit

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Speaker 2: more clout and visibility. There is a lot more complexity

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Speaker 2: to the messages that you're putting out there. You know,

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Speaker 2: you might have hundreds of stakeholders that you have to

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Speaker 2: keep on board or shareholders, so it becomes a lot

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Speaker 2: more complex. I'm down the like good news end of

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Speaker 2: the scale. Just yeah, really helping epic humans get on

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Speaker 2: podcasts like the Mentor, Like lots of my students have

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Speaker 2: come and chatted with you from pitching their own stories

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Speaker 2: and them being the person that can actually put themselves

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Speaker 2: out there and they don't have to pay an arm

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Speaker 2: and a leg for a publicist because we're expensive for

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Speaker 2: a small end of town, Like an early stage business

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Speaker 2: can't always afford to pay for a pr. So I

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Speaker 2: really like to help the smaller businesses.

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Speaker 1: So it's and I've experienced both ends of it in

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Speaker 1: my own life having worked with General Electric for a

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Speaker 1: long time. You know, a global business which you know,

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Speaker 1: you weren't even allowed to use the word general Electric

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Speaker 1: or even the low logo the lozenge that was at

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Speaker 1: the bottom there. We sometimes it would take if we

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Speaker 1: want to announce something. Literally when I had the Indian business,

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Speaker 1: the business in India with g I was a partner

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Speaker 1: with them. For us to use the logo, I think

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Speaker 1: it took four months of approval time and we had

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Speaker 1: to go get the head of India degree. We had

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Speaker 1: to get the head of Japan which is the region

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Speaker 1: regional head degree. Then it had the regional head had

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Speaker 1: to go back to Connecticut to get the head office

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Speaker 1: to agree to use the logo and.

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Speaker 2: On inspiring process and on.

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Speaker 1: Each occasion because I was used to an email, own

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Speaker 1: business and do whatever I want when it's just just Afterwardsard.

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Speaker 1: But the process of getting it done too was you

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Speaker 1: had to not only talk to the head of the country,

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Speaker 1: the head of the region or the head of the

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Speaker 1: world globally I'm talking about you had to get they

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Speaker 1: had to be advised by the head of public relations

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Speaker 1: or corporate relations. They caught it was public relations, and

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Speaker 1: you had to pitch to every single one of them,

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Speaker 1: and it was like such a punishing process. Like in

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Speaker 1: then I felt like giving up a few times. You're

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Speaker 1: so less so to be clear, because I'm more I'm

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Speaker 1: quite interested getting the terminology right. So to be clear,

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Speaker 1: you're not in that territory. You're not in that. That's

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Speaker 1: what I call corporate public relations. When you talk about

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Speaker 1: public relations at the beginning and or publicists, in other words,

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Speaker 1: you're trying to at least get your client, the individual

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Speaker 1: in front of a camera or on a page or

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Speaker 1: in front of a microphone, so that they can actually

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Speaker 1: talk about what they do, what their proposition is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, so helping their Yeah, definitely not in the

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Speaker 2: corporate end of town. I worked in the corporate end

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Speaker 2: of town, not my favorite, and I worked in for

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Speaker 2: government organizations as well and have felt the delight of

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Speaker 2: the many layers of sign off. I think I probably

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Speaker 2: the cowboy territory of small business and the startup landscape. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: helping those people get out there and share their message,

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Speaker 2: and that can be like multi layered. I think there's

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Speaker 2: moments where you can be the story and you know

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Speaker 2: you're doing something but that's really interesting and worthy of

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Speaker 2: a conversation. But the thing that I think I really

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Speaker 2: really like is a thought as a strategy, and that's

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Speaker 2: where people are going out there with their big ideas

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Speaker 2: for change. So it might not be that you have

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Speaker 2: this really cool thing that you're doing in that moment

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Speaker 2: that's going to be worthy, but you can go out

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Speaker 2: there as an expert and comment on what's happening in

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Speaker 2: the football industry or what's happening in the energy industry,

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Speaker 2: and you're there as part of the conversation. And that's

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Speaker 2: a really valuable way for emerging voices to build their brand.

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Speaker 2: So let's say.

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Speaker 1: I've got an idea, and let's say I'm a technology person,

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Speaker 1: a stem as scientist or a technologist, and I've got

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Speaker 1: this idea that's bubbling around in my mind, and I

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Speaker 1: think I can create a device to manage or end

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Speaker 1: or cure something, or identify something, to diagnose something. And

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Speaker 1: let's say it's in a popular territory. Now, concussion, good example.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned that rugby. You mentioned a sport concussion. What

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Speaker 1: do you But I haven't really established it yet. I've

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Speaker 1: sort of got my ideas together. I'm maybe thinking about

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Speaker 1: down the track talking to someone to come and funded

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Speaker 1: for me, you know, speaking to high net worse or

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Speaker 1: venture capitalist, et cetera. But I still really haven't got

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Speaker 1: my pitch ready for them. But I got the idea,

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Speaker 1: and given social media today, would you say to that individual, well,

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Speaker 1: how do you assess whether that individual should start to

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Speaker 1: talk about the problem, not so much the solution, but

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Speaker 1: actually put themselves out there as the expert and accessible

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Speaker 1: expert on that particular issue. At what point do they

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Speaker 1: start doing that or should they wait until they've got

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Speaker 1: the product or you know, how's it all worked? Because

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Speaker 1: I would have thought that's a typical sort of person

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Speaker 1: you should come and see you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Look, I mean lots of people tackle this

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Speaker 2: in different ways. I'm a really big fan of like

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Speaker 2: founder led or expert led pr where that person you know,

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Speaker 2: like Anita Saka who came and chatted. She's someone who's

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Speaker 2: out there always chatting, having conversations, and so it means

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Speaker 2: that has a beautiful halo effect over whatever product book

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Speaker 2: that she launches because she's always part of conversations. So

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Speaker 2: for me, but how do you do that?

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Speaker 1: Though? So if you don't, as I did, so, A

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Speaker 1: good example that was John Simon's when he launched Jolsey Homelanes.

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Speaker 1: He put himself in the conversation about, you know, how

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Speaker 1: banks run fair and the way they treated people relative

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Speaker 1: to borrowing money, how they wold very judgmental, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: And he just put himself in the conversation in the

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Speaker 1: early days we're talking about the nineties, and he became

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Speaker 1: he was an expert. He's an expert. He'd been doing

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Speaker 1: his whole life as a mortgage broker, so he understood

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Speaker 1: the territory. How do you establish yourself one as someone

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Speaker 1: who the media wants to talk to you about the territory?

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Speaker 1: How do you put out you're the expert? You have

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Speaker 1: to go on right an article in the conversation. I mean, like,

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Speaker 1: how does all this stuff work? What would you say to.

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Speaker 2: Somebody, Well, you have to be an academic PhD to

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Speaker 2: get an article with them with the conversation, tell me

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Speaker 2: about that. So you need to be aligned with an

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Speaker 2: academic institution and have a PhD to write for the conversation.

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Speaker 2: That's what they stand for. But in terms of like

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Speaker 2: just that foundational piece where you've got lived or academic

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Speaker 2: or worked experience. So you might have personal exposure to

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Speaker 2: domestic violence, or you might have studied incarceration policy, or

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Speaker 2: you might have worked in a particular industry for ten

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Speaker 2: plus years and you've kind of got some good ideas,

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Speaker 2: you really intimately understand a thing. They're kind of like

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Speaker 2: the three core things that you need to have at

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Speaker 2: least one.

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Speaker 1: You need one of those.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So I don't think that to be an

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Speaker 2: expert you have to go to UNI or have studied

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Speaker 2: a particular thing. I think in an academic institution, I

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Speaker 2: think you can study a thing in life.

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Speaker 1: Does it help if you have got an academic.

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Speaker 2: It depends what the domain is, So, particularly with science technology,

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Speaker 2: there's definitely a lot of value there.

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Speaker 1: Does it make your job easier if the person, for example,

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Speaker 1: has a PhD?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Does it make your job interesting? Conversation I've had

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Speaker 2: with a client recently that I worked with Sophie Walker.

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Speaker 2: She is the podcaster behind Australian birth Stories, and we

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Speaker 2: worked on her book launch last year and she was

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Speaker 2: honestly saying to me, should I go back and do

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Speaker 2: a PhD? She's got sixteen million downloads, four hundred and

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Speaker 2: fifty episodes talking interviewing women about their birth stories. It's like,

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Speaker 2: I really don't think that you can get much more

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Speaker 2: experience and exposure to understanding that intimate detail of birth

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Speaker 2: then talking to four hundred plus women blow by blow

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Speaker 2: of that experience. So there's moments where you definitely and

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Speaker 2: I think it probably more comes down to self doubt

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Speaker 2: and the impost that we all have to navigate through.

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Speaker 2: But you can absolutely have the lived experience and those

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Speaker 2: the intimate understanding of an issue. And that's what it

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Speaker 2: comes down to, like how good is your understanding of

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Speaker 2: an issue? You know, can you speak until the cows

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Speaker 2: come home? Do you have all of the you know,

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Speaker 2: latest data. You don't have to be an academic to

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Speaker 2: collate data if you read the news, if you're reading

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Speaker 2: peer reviewed journals, you know, if you're listening to podcasts

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Speaker 2: and all of those conversations and collating your own fact sheet.

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Speaker 2: And that's something that I urge anyone that's thinking about

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Speaker 2: doing PR to be doing. It's not just good for PR,

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Speaker 2: it's good for business. Like if you're pitching to an

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Speaker 2: investor and you can rattle off who you know, the

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Speaker 2: big names, who the big influencers, who the leading researchers,

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Speaker 2: and who's holding the purse, that's going to make a

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Speaker 2: really big difference in how you operate in business as well.

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Speaker 2: So that foundational piece, I think.

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Speaker 1: So to stop you there from when you say that

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Speaker 1: foundational piece, is that foundational piece in terms of being

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Speaker 1: either having lived or studied either lived experience or studied

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Speaker 1: academic experience and or qualifications. That foundation piece is that

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Speaker 1: about you establishing you the individual, not you, but the

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Speaker 1: point their cred other words, because that's going to send

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Speaker 1: off this person's profile maybe and or whatever this person

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Speaker 1: is saying to a media outlet. At the end of

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Speaker 1: the day, you want to get into a media outlet whatever,

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Speaker 1: there's a podcast where it's channel Today's show, whatever it

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Speaker 1: is news, You've got to because you've got to get

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Speaker 1: past the producer or you've got to get the producer's

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Speaker 1: interest totally.

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Speaker 2: Relative to the show.

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Speaker 1: Your job is to know what they are interested in.

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Speaker 1: But you've got to say with this person got cred,

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Speaker 1: So credit is either one of those PhD lived in experience,

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Speaker 1: lived experience, or whatever the case may be. That's the

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Speaker 1: first thing. So you've got to get cred and relevancy.

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Speaker 1: What about then convincing that the story is a good story,

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Speaker 1: Like in other words, Okay, this person is the real deal,

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Speaker 1: but might be it's a bit boring or how do

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Speaker 1: you work out that and how do you get your

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Speaker 1: client to find that those few threads that will get

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Speaker 1: them excited about putting it on television because at end

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Speaker 1: of the day, for example, television or radio, they were

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Speaker 1: the listeners to like it. You're looking for your content

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Speaker 1: or your client's content.

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Speaker 2: Totally, So how do you do that?

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Speaker 1: What's the deal?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I guess like lots of prs tackle this differently.

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Speaker 2: Some will do the big events and activations and build

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Speaker 2: the wackiest thing ever and then suddenly you've got a

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Speaker 2: story because it's unusual.

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Speaker 1: Richard Brain and stuff. Yeah, take down middle of Martin

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Speaker 1: Place and pointed.

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Speaker 2: In the arm Williams one in Mutton Place as well,

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Speaker 2: like and that they're great, they work. I've worked on

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Speaker 2: campaigns where we've had hundreds of tradees doing workouts in

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Speaker 2: Martin Place, like you know that that is a strategy.

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Speaker 2: But for me, I think human emotion is something that's

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Speaker 2: really helpful for television. So it's Sunrise or Today Show.

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Speaker 2: They're looking for what is the human interest piece? So

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Speaker 2: if you go to them with a really corporate story,

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Speaker 2: it's not going to necessarily translate to their audience. So

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Speaker 2: you have to find a way to make their audience care.

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Speaker 2: So for me, I always am thinking about what's that

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Speaker 2: ven diagram, what's the crossover between what you give a

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Speaker 2: shit about and what they give a shit about? And

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Speaker 2: where do they cross over? Because the media outlet is

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Speaker 2: not going to move closer to you. They know what

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Speaker 2: works for them, what their audience loves. That's exactly. So

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Speaker 2: it's really important, I think for anyone that's going out

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Speaker 2: in and do some pr for themselves is to think, well,

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Speaker 2: what are the things like? The rule of ten is

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Speaker 2: what I live by. So I always say to anyone

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Speaker 2: that is thinking about pitching a story, go and watch

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Speaker 2: that show ten times. Listen to ten episodes of that

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Speaker 2: podcast before you pitch, because you'll understand where you fit

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Speaker 2: in their narrative. You'll know, Okay, they're really interested in

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Speaker 2: business stories. They like, you know, the human interest. They

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Speaker 2: want to hear your fuck ups. They want it, you know,

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Speaker 2: or it'll be the other ones where you have to

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Speaker 2: be really squeaky clean and your CEO magazine or Forbes

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Speaker 2: version is going to be totally different to the Mark

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Speaker 2: Boris Vergin yep.

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Speaker 1: I get that. And because I think this, if you

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Speaker 1: don't mind that we just step through this because I

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Speaker 1: think is really important.

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Speaker 2: Well, this is my favorite topic totally.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure it is. It's one of my favorites too,

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Speaker 1: because most people don't know what they're doing. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: it's not that scientific, but it is a lot of

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Speaker 1: common sense.

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Speaker 2: It's so simple. I honestly feel like rude taking people's

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Speaker 2: money to teach them how to do pr Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But a lot of people don't have common sense words.

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Speaker 1: They're in the weeds, they're very invested in there or

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Speaker 1: you just.

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Speaker 2: Don't know what you don't know right, like it's over

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Speaker 2: there and you kind of have to do a bit

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Speaker 2: of guesswork unless you know someone that can just step

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Speaker 2: you through it. And then it is really it is step.

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Speaker 1: So there are a number of steps. Yeah, but I

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Speaker 1: want to go to the break when it comes straight back.

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Speaker 1: But when we come back, I want to go. I

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Speaker 1: would like to talk to you about beyond establishing credibility,

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Speaker 1: how important is the ability the skill of storytelling and

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Speaker 1: how do you how does one develop that skill? How

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Speaker 1: important is authenticity? And that's a skill to be able

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Speaker 1: to convey authenticity just because you're authentic doesn't mean you

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Speaker 1: can convey it. And and finally, ian at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day, what are the How important is it

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Speaker 1: to play around with sensationalism sensationalizing things in other words,

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Speaker 1: creating a sense of urgency in the way you speak,

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Speaker 1: the way you look, or using data to for example,

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Speaker 1: we only live for four thousand weeks in our life

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Speaker 1: overage statistically, if you're seventy, you've only got six hundred

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Speaker 1: weeks left. Do something about your life and your health.

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Speaker 1: That that type of sensationalism. I don't mean sensationalism. I

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Speaker 1: mean that sort of sense of urgency for fox.

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Speaker 2: Sake, Why does that matter right now?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Correct that type of stuff. But I'll go to

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Speaker 1: the break one to come straight back. I'm straight back

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Speaker 1: here and I'm with Odette end from Odent and Go

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Speaker 1: like as an odeate Barry the founder of Odent and Co.

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Speaker 1: Which is a I don't know what we call it.

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Speaker 1: I don't like call them publicity publicists or PR.

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Speaker 2: But we teach people how to get their own PR.

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Speaker 1: And get on the front foot and get people to

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Speaker 1: notice them. And we will finish you off on some

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Speaker 1: sort of areas around you know, the importance of establishing

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Speaker 1: your credibility, but I do want to talk about what

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Speaker 1: happens after that, In other words, the execution part. Once

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Speaker 1: you can prove your credible to a media outlet, what

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Speaker 1: do you recommend our debt in terms of things like,

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Speaker 1: for example, the ability to tell your story. So no

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Speaker 1: point getting oh wow, it's a great release from my dad.

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Speaker 1: Let's get this person on the you know, the morning show,

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Speaker 1: whichever one it is, and she gets who or she

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Speaker 1: gets on there and they've got nothing. They can't tell

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Speaker 1: a story. How do you train people? How do you

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Speaker 1: what's what's the deal there? How important is that stuff?

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's so important, And it's really like I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, coming back to that rule of ten. That's

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Speaker 2: a big part of it, because every format has a

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Speaker 2: different style. You know, if you were going to do

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Speaker 2: a radio interview for a section, you might have a

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Speaker 2: seven second SoundBite, So you need to have like a

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Speaker 2: ForWord phrase that's going to work. That's going to be memory,

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Speaker 2: and that's going to be sticky versus you know, if

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Speaker 2: you do an hour podcast, you're going to have to

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Speaker 2: be able to carry some time and explain things in detail.

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Speaker 2: If you're on the couch, you're going to need to

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Speaker 2: have a sunny disposition. And you know, so all of

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Speaker 2: those things really come into really understanding each of the

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Speaker 2: different audiences. And I think historically, I think where people

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Speaker 2: make those mistakes with pr that don't understand it, they'll

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Speaker 2: send out a broadcast media release and a broadcast message

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Speaker 2: BCC every email address they can possibly find. And the

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Speaker 2: data says seventy five percent of journalists, produces, editors say

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Speaker 2: only a quarter of what they receive in their inbox

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Speaker 2: is even valid or like applicable to their platform. You know,

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Speaker 2: every producer I talked to was talk about the swamp

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Speaker 2: of their inbox and it's because people are not tailoring

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Speaker 2: their message to that particular.

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Speaker 1: Out spray technique.

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Speaker 2: They're just spray everyone Sprain and Prey. Yes, very impressed.

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Speaker 1: So that's very interesting. So is that where you come

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Speaker 1: in as a teacher or you come in as a

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Speaker 1: person looks after clients. Is it you or you're asking

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Speaker 1: them to work it out themselves? Is it you who says, look,

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Speaker 1: that story is going to be best in this particular

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Speaker 1: media outlet because that's what they're interested in. And this

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Speaker 1: is the producer and I will you a debt, will

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Speaker 1: send it to them, and the fact that you know

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Speaker 1: they know who you are, this might get put to

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Speaker 1: the top. Bole there's one of our debt and codes releases.

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Speaker 1: We'll have a look at that. Or is it you

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Speaker 1: you saying to the client you have to work out

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Speaker 1: who the best media outlet is.

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Speaker 2: It depends how much money people are spending right so down.

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Speaker 1: If you don't lower in the scale, they have to

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Speaker 1: do it themselves. But you teach them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, so money. Work it out well with with

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Speaker 2: hack your own pr that I teach online and that's

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Speaker 2: anyone can sign up anytime. That gives people the skills

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Speaker 2: to go out and go, Okay, this is who my

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Speaker 2: customer is. These are the who this cold as I

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Speaker 2: need to get in front of. Ah, I'm going to

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Speaker 2: go through these particular steps to find the publications that

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Speaker 2: makes sense.

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Speaker 1: These are the places I watch, listen or watch.

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Speaker 2: Exactly and you know, like a super simple basic version

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Speaker 2: of that is go and have a chat to some

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Speaker 2: of your clients and say what do you read, what

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Speaker 2: do you listen to? Like, where do you go to

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Speaker 2: get entertained or find out information about our industry? That

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Speaker 2: very simple step is that first piece, and then go

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Speaker 2: and google the media kits for those publications. So that's

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Speaker 2: that's the DIY. Learn it yourself for us when we're

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Speaker 2: working on behalf of a client. You know, similarly as

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Speaker 2: your producers would put together a prep for any of

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Speaker 2: your guests that you're having on, that's what we do

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Speaker 2: as well. So we will a be matchmaking to make

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Speaker 2: sure that we're only putting them in front of you know,

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Speaker 2: aligned values, met agreeable places that are going to be

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Speaker 2: you know, receptive to their message. And then we put

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Speaker 2: together a backgrounder. So who is Mark? What's he interested in?

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Speaker 2: Here's maybe two podcasts you should listen to get a

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Speaker 2: sense of his flavor. Here's his style. He might not

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Speaker 2: follow the script, you know, he you know, and here's

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Speaker 2: the format. Here's what to expect, here's how to tackle it.

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Speaker 2: Here's how to get at ease as quickly as you can.

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Speaker 2: These are some of the themes he loves talking about.

436
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,120
Speaker 2: You know, that's that's our job. But that's all information

437
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 2: that absolutely anyone can acquire. A go and listen to

438
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 2: my podcast with Jess Smalley. She's given us the background

439
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 2: on you you know, like that's that's my job. I

440
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 2: go out there in industry and I interview every journalist, editor,

441
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 2: producer that I can get in front of to ask

442
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 2: them what do they want, what are you looking for,

443
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 2: what do you need in a pitch, what kind of

444
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 2: talent works for your audience? What topics gets them really excited?

445
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,919
Speaker 2: And then that's something that absolutely anyone can listen to.

446
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 2: So you don't even need to do the course, you know,

447
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,399
Speaker 2: if you've got some initiative and hustle, just go and

448
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 2: have a listen. And and that's you know, in everyone's hands.

449
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 1: How they learn how to tell the story. That's a

450
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 1: skill time, you know, pauses, language, tone, confidence. Yeah, you know,

451
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 1: people get extraordinarily nervous once it came, once the cameras

452
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:27,679
Speaker 1: pointed in their face. It changes the whole world. If

453
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 1: you do courses where you put them in front of

454
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: the camera, show what they look like.

455
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 2: That's not that's not I know some Jess Ridley bt

456
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 2: W Media is incredible at that. She has the full

457
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 2: crew and makes people nervous as all get out and

458
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 2: really like irons out those ticks and quirks that we

459
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 2: do in front of what that we do all the time,

460
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 2: but we notice in front of a camera. That's not

461
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 2: my domain. Like I do a small amount of preparation

462
00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 2: in how to present, but you know, like I maybe

463
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 2: I'm out out of school on this one, but I

464
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:09,880
Speaker 2: don't necessarily think a super squeaky clean media trained spokesperson

465
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 2: is a good thing. I think it's fucking boring if

466
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 2: someone if someone is trying to perfect and you know,

467
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 2: not be themselves, it's not super fun to listen to.

468
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 2: I think the old world of media training was very

469
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 2: much about, you know, making sure you've got the right intonation,

470
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 2: whether your gaze is soft enough, whether you're wearing you know,

471
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 2: the right color. Like I was talking to a client

472
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 2: recently and she was just doing some media training through

473
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,439
Speaker 2: I'm not going to say who, but through a you know,

474
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 2: one of the Big four. And she had the experience

475
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 2: of she is a social enterprise and she works on

476
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 2: supporting refugees to get their first jobs in Australia. And

477
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 2: she she said that she was informed that she shouldn't

478
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 2: wear black interviews because it would it didn't align with

479
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:08,679
Speaker 2: philanthropy and doing that kind of work. And to me,

480
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 2: I just think that is just like the that's too

481
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 2: far into like analyzing minutia. Yeah, like I don't. I

482
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,400
Speaker 2: totally appreciate. Like we have Katrina Blauer from Chattel seven

483
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 2: comes and does sessions with our students and she talks

484
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 2: about like how to you know, minimize distractions, and half

485
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 2: of it's not what you say, it is how you

486
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,919
Speaker 2: present in the flyaway hairs and the matt you know,

487
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,880
Speaker 2: buff so that you're not shining like a disco ball

488
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 2: under the lights. That's like that real TV space of

489
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 2: TV anchors. I don't think that applies in the same

490
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,400
Speaker 2: way to the talent that are interviewed. I think there

491
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,400
Speaker 2: is an expectation of this really crisp and polished anchor,

492
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 2: but I think the talent can be a little bit

493
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 2: more real. So storytelling is really important that you can,

494
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 2: you know, say something that is engaging and add detail

495
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:10,160
Speaker 2: and color in how you present information. But I don't

496
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 2: I don't love like refining yourself to the point of

497
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 2: removing the you from the story.

498
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's sort of interesting. There's a balance. You're right,

499
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 1: you don't have to come because I think if it

500
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 1: comes across as too polished, it can look it can

501
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 1: lose as authenticity. Yeah, I mean in authenticity I think

502
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 1: is this is a big word these days, but can

503
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: you just touch on authenticity? I mean, like, how do

504
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: I show that I'm truly authentic about say the topic

505
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: of oh, domestic violence for example, it's a good example.

506
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm probably hard for me to do that

507
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 1: because I'm a male, But if I'm a female, is

508
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: it important to sort of say that you know someone

509
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 1: who's suffered from that or you've suffered from it from

510
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: it yourself in order to build that empathy factor? Can

511
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: you be seriously able to talk about the topic if

512
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: you haven't really experienced it? Oh?

513
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 2: I mean I think I guess I'm trying to apply

514
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 2: that to a storytelling format. But like, more from an

515
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 2: authentic perspective, I think it's about being honest and like

516
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 2: what you don't know, you ask questions about. And I

517
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 2: think like empathy comes from understanding, right, So you don't

518
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 2: have to have lived experience to be able to experience empathy.

519
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 2: I think that starts with curiosity. So where you don't

520
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 2: know things, you don't have to say, oh, I know

521
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 2: someone who experienced that, because it's potentially taking space away

522
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 2: from that person. I think the best response when someone

523
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 2: shares like you know something that you don't understand or

524
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 2: that might be quite big, is to ask me if

525
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 2: they're comfortable telling you more about it, you know, like

526
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 2: that's a nice safe space to like open an invitation

527
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 2: to learn more. I think the world is so much

528
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 2: better by the stories that we share with one another.

529
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 2: That is how we learn and grow. So, yeah, I

530
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 2: think that's the sort.

531
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: How important is it? How important is it to be really?

532
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: What do you call it? Impactful?

533
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 2: Though?

534
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: Is it important to be impactful when you're out there

535
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 1: trying to promote what you stand for? And it could

536
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: be just a simple product that you know, it helps

537
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 1: you get your kids to school on time or something

538
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: like that. It could be a business product that helps

539
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 1: you get your kids to school on time. But how

540
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 1: important is it to be impactful? Like hit them between

541
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 1: the eyes of something that? Wow? I didn't know that.

542
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I think it's similar to your four thousand Weeks.

543
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 2: Four thousand Weeks.

544
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 1: It's actually a book written called four thousand Weeks.

545
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I've heard you talk about it a couple

546
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 2: of times, and I really feel like I need to

547
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 2: read it. Yeah, I feel like so there's a there's

548
00:30:55,720 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 2: a for all of my anti strategy advice. There is

549
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 2: a really simple formula when it comes to developing key messages,

550
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 2: which can be quite helpful when you want to create

551
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 2: that impact, because I think our brains are wired to

552
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 2: retain information when it spikes emotion, but also when there's

553
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 2: like a simple thing we can hook on too. So

554
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 2: you know, a good example of that is to use

555
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 2: a stat and then have a following a motive statement,

556
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 2: and then you have your product or service as the solution.

557
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 2: So Sophie Walker from Australian Birth Stories, for example, you know,

558
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 2: she's out there trying to help the one in three

559
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 2: women that experience birth trauma in Australia, which is horrific data,

560
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 2: so many you know, incredible mental and physical injuries as

561
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 2: a result of that, and she's using her podcast to

562
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 2: create change in birth trauma. So if you can stack

563
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 2: three things together in that way, it helps people go

564
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 2: it's that sticky thing that they can hook onto. They'll go,

565
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 2: oh god, one in three women, that's terrible, you know,

566
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 2: and that oh well, storyteller stories around birth can create change,

567
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 2: and I'll go and check that out.

568
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: So one of the three things though, the stat, Yeah,

569
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: what's the second thing?

570
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 2: And a motive hook, so using language that like, you know,

571
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 2: talking about the horrors of mental and physical trauma something

572
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 2: in that nature. And then you're using yourself or your

573
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 2: product or your service as the solution.

574
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: So you use the stat which is well, I didn't

575
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: know that. Second one is you've got to use language

576
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 1: as a sort of evocative that.

577
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 2: Makes them feel something.

578
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 1: They go, oh, sure, I didn't you know, like wow.

579
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 1: And then the third thing is there's a solution, yeah,

580
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 1: and then then obviously direct them to.

581
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 2: Where they need to go totally.

582
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: You need tell them where to go. That you have

583
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 1: to you have to have a website or something access,

584
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: give them access.

585
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you can do all manners of that same thing.

586
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 2: You can do that in a you know, ten second bit.

587
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 2: You can tease that into a thirty second version. You

588
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 2: can have a three minute version, so that you can

589
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 2: essentially say the same thing, but you can do it

590
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 2: in different formats.

591
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 1: That's interesting because, like you said something earlier, which is

592
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 1: really important. On radio, you might get seven seconds. How

593
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: do you I mean, politicians do it all the time,

594
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 1: but how do you teach your students.

595
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 2: That no matter you're up there, you've got an objective?

596
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're seven, you might have seven seconds to

597
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 1: say it. And you know as well as anybody, you

598
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: will send the brief into the particularly radio, and radio

599
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 1: will always go off script. They just wander all around

600
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: the joint and you end up talking about rubbish. You

601
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: start in the mialle time. But I go in there

602
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: to talk about Wizard home loans and they want to

603
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 1: talk about rugby league and I just think, oh my god,

604
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: I didn't even get to talk about what I want

605
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: to talk about.

606
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 2: But you built a relationship and you got your name

607
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 2: out there and you were talking about something that matched

608
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 2: that format. If you had a gone there and just

609
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 2: been like Wizard, Wizard, Wizard, Wizard Wizard, everyone's like, oh

610
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 2: my god, that guy is so self promotional. You know.

611
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 2: It doesn't let the radio announcer get in there. But

612
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 2: if you're giving them what they want, it's just so

613
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 2: much more effective. But you have to do it often, Yeah, totally,

614
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 2: you have to.

615
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: It's not just a once only it's one shot go like,

616
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 1: you have to keep going back. How do you then

617
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 1: get yourself in a position that the in for example,

618
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 1: the radio show wants to get you back. So what

619
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 1: is it that you have to build a relationship with

620
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 1: these individuals, these the hosts of the radio show.

621
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 2: Is that how it works absolutely?

622
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 1: I mean free stuff, free content.

623
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, Well, at the cornerstone of PR is relationships.

624
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 2: Like that's what it all comes down to. So you

625
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:48,839
Speaker 2: I always everyone that I teach, whether it's learning how

626
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 2: to do their own PR or with the clients that

627
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 2: I work with, it all comes down to be be

628
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 2: a great person to work with that people enjoy having around.

629
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 2: So be really organized, be really helpful, anticipate their needs

630
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 2: so that you're giving them what they want proactively, be

631
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 2: really curious and engaged with what they're about, and then

632
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 2: you're going to get invited back time and time again.

633
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 2: And be proactive. And also you have to be a hustler,

634
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 2: Like there's just no two ways about it. Like most

635
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 2: times I would suggest it's going to be three or

636
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 2: four rounds of follow ups before the thing converts. So

637
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,320
Speaker 2: you've got to be fearless in the face of rejection

638
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 2: and radio silence. Because often producers, you know, have hundreds

639
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 2: of pictures in their inbox every day, and often the

640
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:43,359
Speaker 2: most persistent and aligned will win, you know, and there'll

641
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 2: be other aligned ones in the inbox that won't follow

642
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 2: up because they're afraid of rejection, and so you've got

643
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 2: to be willing to chase for it.

644
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 1: I like this of hustle. I mean, I actually think

645
00:35:56,080 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 1: PR is about hustle constant. What I mean by hustle consistency,

646
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 1: constantly being consistent with your story, assuming that whatever it

647
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: is you're trying to talk about something that they like

648
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: to talk about or their audience likes to listen to. Take,

649
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: for me, example, in my Homeland business, when the Reserve

650
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: Bank governor was increasing interest rates, I know that the

651
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 1: audience wanted to thought that was unfair. So we would

652
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 1: just continually feed all the media outlets with why we

653
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 1: thought it was unfair and why he did not need

654
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: to do that, and by the way, and not just

655
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 1: saying it for the sake of saying, we honestly believed

656
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 1: it too, and which meant I was good content to

657
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 1: get on there. But like you know, I don't need

658
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 1: to do this sort of stuff in my life, but

659
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:43,240
Speaker 1: I did it because it's.

660
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 2: A good for my business totally.

661
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 1: But you've got to be prepared to do it.

662
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, But I mean, you've seen firsthand the benefits of

663
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 2: building a profile you know both. You know, like in

664
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 2: many different natures, you know, being visible would have a

665
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 2: halo effect on the various that you have. And I

666
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:06,359
Speaker 2: think you know people to your point before you are

667
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 2: wondering about like sensationalism, I think there's like a really

668
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 2: fine line there and probably not so much in the

669
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 2: say something ridiculously audacious to get the headline. But I

670
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 2: think you can say what you want to say in

671
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 2: a more enhanced weals.

672
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, don't be scared to say what needs to be said.

673
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:31,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And I think I think if you particularly

674
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 2: the sorts of people that I want to work with there,

675
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,919
Speaker 2: they are cage rattlers. They they are people that see

676
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,360
Speaker 2: issues in society and they want to create change. So

677
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:46,280
Speaker 2: that is definitely kind of part of them o which

678
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,879
Speaker 2: makes it easier. But I think if you can think

679
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 2: of what's what's the current narrative that's happening, what do

680
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 2: you disagree with about that, that will really help. So

681
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 2: to your point, with the interest rates that you know,

682
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,279
Speaker 2: you could spot that the conversation was heading in a

683
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 2: particular direction, you could come out with the counter narrative

684
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 2: or whatever represented the views of the people that you

685
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 2: wanted to get in front of you.

686
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 1: And finally, then I think this is an important point.

687
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 1: Do you ever explain, or do you explain to your

688
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: students or people who enroll in your courses and all

689
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 1: your clients that one of the things you're going to

690
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 1: trade off for this success in publicity is their private life.

691
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 1: It's a clear trade off because all of a sudden,

692
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 1: if you are successful at it, everybody wants to know. Well,

693
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 1: the moment you put a foot wrong, they'll want to

694
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 1: talk about that too.

695
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. I think you know, the nature of celebrity

696
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 2: is probably a fair bit further down the line from

697
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 2: their startup community building profile around business, so that trade

698
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:02,280
Speaker 2: off of private life is probably a bit further away. Yeah.

699
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 2: And I also think that in the landscape of like

700
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 2: building a visible profile to support your business endeavors is

701
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,879
Speaker 2: probably a little bit different to maybe doing something that's

702
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 2: quite mainstream consumer celebrity media. If that makes sense.

703
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 1: It does. But I was probably more thinking about not

704
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 1: so much the media jumping all over you if you

705
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: make some mistakes, because that is once you get to that.

706
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 1: I'm talking about your competitors or people in your cohort,

707
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 1: people who thinking themselves will look at her she did this,

708
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 1: but she's been talking about that for ages and give

709
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: them the way you know, LinkedIn and all those things work.

710
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: You know, you only have to have a thousand followers

711
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 1: and then you can bring someone down pretty fast.

712
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, but also you can you can like cancel culture.

713
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:56,360
Speaker 2: I think is a massive problem, and I think we

714
00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 2: need to move more towards, you know, having difficult coms

715
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 2: in a really kind and compassionate way. I loved your

716
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 2: conversation with Hannah Ferguson, and I thought that was, you know,

717
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,879
Speaker 2: to that point. But I guess, like my lens would be,

718
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 2: you can change direction on things publicly that you don't

719
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 2: have to hold the course on a particular position just

720
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,879
Speaker 2: because that's where you came from. We're all growing and

721
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 2: learning and becoming wiser and making better choices in our lives,

722
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 2: and some bad choices as well. But I think how

723
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 2: you explain how you changed decision and being public in

724
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 2: what the movements and thought processes were, that's how you

725
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 2: navigate that. I would hate to think that anyone would

726
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 2: become afraid of changing their mind on something because they've

727
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 2: previously taken a stance. You know, we're all changing.

728
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 1: That's very interesting because it's quite complicated. Well, it's not

729
00:40:56,280 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 1: complicated as much as it is can become complex when

730
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: you're building let's call it a brand around yourself. It's

731
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:09,760
Speaker 1: it's not all perfect. I mean, like the best example

732
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 1: is Trump, you know, probably the biggest brand builder of

733
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,760
Speaker 1: a personal brand builder that ever that we've ever knowned.

734
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 1: You know, he went from a TV guy to becoming

735
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 1: the president of the biggest nation in the world at

736
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 1: the time. But look at the downside for him. I mean,

737
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 1: here's the ultimate example of pr for me in public

738
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 1: and publicists and being his own publicist I think, and

739
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 1: maybe the best example of the upsides and the downsides.

740
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 1: And always he sticks to his guns whether you like

741
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:44,720
Speaker 1: him or not. He sticks to his game plan because

742
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 1: he's got an objective he must be president again, and

743
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 1: he just doesn't care abou anything else. And it's quite amazing,

744
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 1: don't I don't know how he sleeps at night with

745
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 1: the stuff that's going on in his life. What would

746
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 1: you be saying to him actually as his publicist or

747
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:04,280
Speaker 1: as his power person.

748
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 2: Oh, I wouldn't be in that game. I don't think

749
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 2: I'd be available for that role.

750
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 1: No, But let's say you had to and you're at

751
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 1: a bigger organization where you're an employee of that organization.

752
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 1: Because I don't mean in terms of his morality or

753
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 1: his ethics or what he believes in. I'm not talking

754
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 1: about that. But would would you say to him, you're

755
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:32,800
Speaker 1: the client, that's the outcome you want to do, stick

756
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 1: to your guns and just keep walking forward and use

757
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: every opportunity as a publicity opportunity. Or would you say

758
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 1: to him, maybe his time today to admit you made

759
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 1: mirrors and say that you want to make change of yourself.

760
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think he's a reasonably unique case

761
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 2: study to talk it to this conversation, I mean, I

762
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,319
Speaker 2: think fascinating. Yeah, I just don't think that he would

763
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 2: listen to anyone. But what would you say? It doesn't

764
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,760
Speaker 2: matter personally. I would say, you have to take account

765
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 2: for all of the wrongdoings and the missteps. And yeah, absolutely,

766
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 2: But again, like me studying like an oil spill at UNI,

767
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:18,360
Speaker 2: he is an spill. Yeah, you know, like my recommendations

768
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 2: would go and fix everything, stop doing that, go and

769
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 2: pay for every bit of damage, apologize, you know like that.

770
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 2: It's a totally different approach. So I don't think you

771
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 2: can always apply that.

772
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 1: Do you think he'd be able to win over his detractives?

773
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 1: So if you did that, my point here is about.

774
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 2: Well, it all comes down to endgame. What are you

775
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:37,720
Speaker 2: trying to achieve?

776
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:39,799
Speaker 1: He wants to win election, he wants more voters, so

777
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 1: he's got his rusted on voters. They'll always vote for

778
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 1: him no matter what. What he wants to do is

779
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 1: cut into you know, the Democrats voting or the swinging

780
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: part of the votes. And I would have thought, I

781
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 1: think that if he did a Bob Hawk, you know,

782
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,239
Speaker 1: and how did I don't know if it's real or not. Really,

783
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 1: it's not here to tell these days, but I knew

784
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 1: him quite well. He started crying and he came up

785
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 1: with this thing about about his transgressions and nowhere near

786
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:15,760
Speaker 1: as his transgressions were, nowhere near as allegedly as highous

787
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 1: is what Trump has done, but no less he Miakoba.

788
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 1: He said, look, I accept what I've done. I'm sorry,

789
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 1: I'll never do it again. I'm as sorry for my wife,

790
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. And I'll think he won a

791
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 1: lot of Australia over and he won the next election.

792
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,320
Speaker 2: I think the biggest factor in there would be time

793
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 2: like how long have you got? Do you know what

794
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 2: I mean? Like, because I feel like if it was

795
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 2: for that impending election, I don't think there's enough time

796
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:45,400
Speaker 2: to change.

797
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:46,399
Speaker 1: Stay the course way.

798
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 2: People, well, yeah, or just get out of the game.

799
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 1: Because at the end of the day, Because someone many

800
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 1: many many many years ago, a guy said to me

801
00:44:55,280 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 1: who was a political advisor for and a speed help

802
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 1: me with pr very very early in the stage of wizard.

803
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 1: He said, Mark, we're building a brand is like building

804
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 1: winning an election. You've got to get people to vote

805
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 1: for you. And he said that's he said, So I'm

806
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 1: going to help you with what I help the people

807
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 1: I help out about winning elections. And he said, it's

808
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 1: just really winning vote by vote by vote by vote

809
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 1: by person by person. And if I think what you're

810
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 1: saying is correct. Today there's an expectation, particularly amongst younger voters,

811
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 1: that you own up for what you've done. Yeah, and

812
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:39,799
Speaker 1: your compenswite and they'll forgive you.

813
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 2: There's a bit of like radical transparency and radical forgiveness

814
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 2: that I think that happens these days. I don't know

815
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 2: whether that applies to Trump, using him as an extreme example,

816
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 2: but I like, I think that it takes careful thought

817
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,840
Speaker 2: to really understand what you're comfortable sharing, right, you know,

818
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 2: because you're not the only stakeholder there. There's people you

819
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 2: may have harmed that come to light through the process.

820
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 2: Or you know, it doesn't have to be of that gravity.

821
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 2: It might just be that you know, you previously were

822
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 2: really pro abortion and you changed your mind on that

823
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 2: that you actually have decided you don't want to stand

824
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 2: for that anymore.

825
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 1: Whatever the well the opposite way, yeah whatever, the issue

826
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 1: is against abortion, but I'm now pro choice.

827
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 2: Yeah cool. And so like something like that, you can

828
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 2: really easily explain through how you have become more exposed information,

829
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 2: you know, the education that you have taken yourself on

830
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,879
Speaker 2: a journey of and how that's informed your worldview. There

831
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 2: will always be people that don't agree with you, and

832
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 2: I just think that it's important to understand that you

833
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 2: you have your space. You don't have to be liked

834
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 2: and loved by everyone. You know, you need to just

835
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 2: find the people that actually matter to you and your couse.

836
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 1: Because it's if I then doll that back this is

837
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 1: the last part, but if I dial that back to

838
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,279
Speaker 1: an individual who's just trying to build their brand on

839
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 1: LinkedIn or through very social media's mediums, and it's getting

840
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 1: a little bit of blowback in things that they might

841
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:16,839
Speaker 1: be saying, both in comments, et cetera. And perhaps they

842
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 1: haven't thought through some of the things that they're standing for.

843
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 1: And now, and as I said, I'm dialing it back,

844
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 1: I agree with you. It's not a big deal. Then

845
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 1: to start saying, well, I've been thinking about some of

846
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 1: these people that have been hitting up with comments against

847
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 1: what I've been talking about, and it doesn't matter what

848
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: it is, and I've been thinking about it, and effectively,

849
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 1: you put yourself in a position to apologize, because I

850
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 1: think authenticity for me is about to say, wow, I

851
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:47,800
Speaker 1: did know about that curiosity and just cop it sweet

852
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 1: and I don't not so much meta coal, but so

853
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 1: oh I'm to blame and you don't have to take

854
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 1: a bullet in the head. But at the same time,

855
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 1: you can be so I didn't realize these things and

856
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:00,080
Speaker 1: I'm actually made me think about it.

857
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, And you see it happen all the time.

858
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 1: That's authenticity to me.

859
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you see that all the time that a crisis,

860
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 2: like a well managed crisis turns in an opportunity for

861
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 2: change where you can like do something really cool like

862
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 2: learn more advocate for a different issue. Yeah, no, I

863
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 2: think that's that.

864
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 1: I think that and I think that's in terms of

865
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 1: knowing all these little things that you tell people about

866
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,320
Speaker 1: who go on to your courses and and I presume

867
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 1: we've got a website. It's it called what is it called,

868
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 1: yeah debt, So I mean someone goes on there, and

869
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 1: these little nuances that we're just talking about now, I

870
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,319
Speaker 1: think they're also important for people to start to recognize too.

871
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 1: It's not just I'm sure you just don't take it through,

872
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 1: you know, session one, Session two, Sessions three, session four.

873
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,919
Speaker 1: There's nuances all the way through these things that where

874
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:48,799
Speaker 1: they get confused, Well, hang on and I did what

875
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 1: exactly what a dead said? But something else has happened,

876
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:54,320
Speaker 1: and and there will always be something else.

877
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:57,280
Speaker 2: That happens, always always.

878
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 1: Just people involved, and there are things you can't account

879
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 1: for totally.

880
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,839
Speaker 2: And that's that's the shit sandwich of PR. Actually. Yeah,

881
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 2: you know, you're in between like a client's expectations and

882
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 2: like deliverables that you cannot guarantee, and journalists, editors, producers

883
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,400
Speaker 2: that may or may not be interested in what you're doing,

884
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:17,759
Speaker 2: and then may portray things in a light that is,

885
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 2: you know, completely outside of your hand. So the biggest

886
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 2: thing I always say to anyone that's coming into PR

887
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:27,240
Speaker 2: is surrender your ego and surrender your sense of control.

888
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 2: So like move with like water through it. Enjoy the process,

889
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 2: enjoy the like the highs and lows of it. But

890
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 2: don't get too attached.

891
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 1: Don't make it personal.

892
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, don't get too attached to exactly how it has

893
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:42,880
Speaker 2: to be, because near enough is actually probably going to

894
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:43,439
Speaker 2: be good enough.

895
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: You know, you said something really interested many of years.

896
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 1: I'll remember you said the shit sandwich. Many years ago

897
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 1: I was saw written on a wall at some James station.

898
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 1: This is how far back Aursole was actually catching the train,

899
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 1: catching it to Greek dancing school. So I was like

900
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:04,879
Speaker 1: fifteen or sixteen, and I remember reading it. I've never

901
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 1: forgotten the phrase I said. When it comes to the

902
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 1: shit sandwich, the more bread you got, the less shit

903
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 1: you eat on that basis allowed to finish.

904
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 2: Off a beautiful image a dead Barry. Thanks very much,

905
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:18,480
Speaker 2: thanks for having me.

906
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 1: You're welcome