1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,240 Speaker 1: We'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: on which this podcast was produced, the Galliger people of 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 1: the Orination. We pay our respects to Elder's past and present. 4 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: This episode contains discussions of domestic violence. If this raises 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: any issues for you, support is available through the links 6 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: and phone numbers in the show notes. 7 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 2: Hi, and here. 8 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:25,319 Speaker 3: I'm taking a short mid season break and we'll be 9 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 3: back soon with even more great interviews for you. In 10 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 3: the meantime, I thought I would take a moment to 11 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 3: reflect on some of the moving conversations I've had with 12 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 3: some incredible frontline workers. In this special episode, you're here 13 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 3: from former police officer Alan Sparks, former firefighter Greg Mullins, 14 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 3: and paramedic Sally Gold. My first guest is Alan Sparks, 15 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 3: with a career spanning over twenty years. As an operational 16 00:00:56,200 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 3: police officer, Alan was no stranger to high pressure situations 17 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 3: for murders, to robberies to rescues. Alan had to confront 18 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:10,960 Speaker 3: intense and difficult cases on a daily basis, but this 19 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 3: took a harsh toll. 20 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 4: Then we went back to the station. We're just having 21 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 4: a cup of tea, and I remember we were standing 22 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 4: in the mill room near the sink, and when the 23 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 4: police issue like an urgent job, you get two distinct 24 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 4: beeps over the radio and then it said any car 25 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 4: in the vicinity of whatever street it was. Boy swept 26 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 4: into a stormwater pipe. And normally that's a job that 27 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 4: uniform would attend, not detectives. It's not a storm or 28 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:46,639 Speaker 4: a drain, which is a large thing you can actually 29 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:50,559 Speaker 4: walk into. This is a narrow pipe. So I remember 30 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 4: Gave and I we just looked at each other and 31 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 4: just threw our cups in the sink, raced downstairs, jumped 32 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 4: in the car, took off up to this street and 33 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 4: we got there and we'd have five absolutely torrential rainfall 34 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 4: at Cops Harbor, so everything was flooded. And we got 35 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:08,799 Speaker 4: to the scene. There were two little boys. They were saturated, 36 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 4: and there was a workman there, an adult male, and 37 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 4: we said to the kids, what's happened. They said, oh, 38 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 4: gives gives disappeared. I said, where's he disappeared? Mate, and 39 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 4: they pointed to this whirlpool and I've gone, oh. 40 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 2: Shit, were they playing in the whirlpool? 41 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, they've been playing on their boogiey boards in the 42 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 4: flooded creek and the whole thing was flooded, and this 43 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 4: whirlpool was massive, was just swirling around, and I thought, great, 44 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 4: what are we going to do? And then the workman said, look, 45 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 4: you can actually get access to look down the drain 46 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 4: across the road. 47 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 5: So we ran across the. 48 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 2: Road and there's just two of you. 49 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, So we lifted up the concrete covers. We took 50 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:52,119 Speaker 4: our guns and handcuffs off through those in the car, 51 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 4: jumped into the into the drain, and we looked down. 52 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:57,239 Speaker 4: We could see what we thought was a little boy's 53 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 4: body down the pipe. And I think the workman he 54 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 4: gave us a rope gave wanted to go down, and 55 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 4: and I said to Gav, look I'll go down. I'll 56 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 4: grab him. I'll give you three tugs and I've got him. 57 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 4: Pulled me back. So I started to go down and 58 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 4: I realized this rope is going to snap and then 59 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 4: I'm down there. So I tugged on the rope gave 60 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 4: pulled me back up to the surface. And I've only 61 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 4: gone down a few meters and by that stage, the 62 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 4: State Emergency Service are there, other cops are there, and 63 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 4: I say this lot of thank God, the professionals here, 64 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 4: they'll take over. And they just gave me a bigger 65 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 4: rope and put me. 66 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 5: Son. 67 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 3: I went, you committed anyway. 68 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 4: And I still remember I'm not a small man. I 69 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 4: think at that stage, I was probably punching one hundred 70 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 4: plus kilos. I'm six foot two, and this water literally 71 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 4: just carried me down. 72 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 5: Like a leaf. I was. I was weightless the power 73 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 5: of this water. 74 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 3: So in fact then that to you, were you thinking, wow, yeah, 75 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 3: I've done to this little boy. 76 00:03:58,120 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 5: Yeah. 77 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 4: And our reasoning was if if we get him out, 78 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 4: if he's dead, we'll we have a chance of reviving him. 79 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 4: If he's alive, we've got to get him out before 80 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 4: it rains again and he. 81 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 5: Gets washed away. 82 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 2: And what was going through your mind. 83 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 5: I'm a very positive person. 84 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 4: I thought, now he's alive, we'll get him out and 85 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 4: we'll get him, get him, get him back home. 86 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 5: It'll be right. So the focus was get to him. 87 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 4: And I had a torch with me, like a maglight, 88 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 4: I think, and there's been an estimate. I went down 89 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 4: eighty meters down the pipe, and by the time we 90 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 4: got to where we thought it was him, the light 91 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 4: shot up was just like it was a branch that 92 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 4: was giving these weird shadows. So what you thought was 93 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 4: the boy, Yeah, this is not good. So I've tugged 94 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,359 Speaker 4: three times on the rope. Thank god, Gavin was in 95 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 4: the drain. He could see what was going on, so 96 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 4: as soon as I tugg him the rope, they stopped 97 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 4: the free flow. So I've stopped and my bulk, I've 98 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 4: actually damned myself in. So suddenly I am I'm engulfed 99 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 4: in water and this water is so powerful. And my 100 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 4: first thought was I hope the guy that tied a 101 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 4: bowline tied a good bowline around my waist, because all 102 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 4: I had was just a rope on my arms. So 103 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 4: then they started to pull me back and I'm not 104 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 4: in a good position here. I thought, I'm going to 105 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 4: die here, I'm going to drown. 106 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,840 Speaker 3: And so you've got this this this backwash just engulfing you. 107 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm pretty well submerged under the water, being pulled 108 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 4: backwards by all the all the se s guys that 109 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 4: cops up on the surface point. 110 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 2: No proper equipment, just a rope around your boy. 111 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, So I remember sort of sometimes I'd like create 112 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 4: a bit of an arch, make an air pocket, grab 113 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 4: a quick breath, get under the water, and go back 114 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 4: under the water again. And then we got back. I've 115 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 4: got back to the surface, thankfully. And then we were 116 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 4: just standing around, going we have to find ways into 117 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 4: this drain. We've got to try and reap frog down 118 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 4: the drain to try and find him. And then a 119 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 4: call came over the radio to say they can hear 120 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 4: a child screaming down the Pacific Highway. Mentally, I'll go on, 121 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 4: that's a long way away. That's a seriously long way away. 122 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 4: And it turns out from where we were it was 123 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 4: about as the craveflis five hundred meters. 124 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 2: It's like a maze down there, right. 125 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, there's this pipe. I mean, I know it went 126 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 4: to a certain direction. But when we got down to 127 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 4: the highway, the Pacific Highways all blocked off. There's people everywhere, 128 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 4: and we jumped out of the car and got to 129 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 4: hear the screams of a child. 130 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 2: What's going through your head when you're hearing the screams? 131 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 4: Confusion, absolute confusion. Like I thought the kid was dead. 132 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 4: I thought we were looking for a body recovery. Yeah, 133 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 4: there's no way this kid can be alive. I thought 134 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 4: he's trapped against a great somewhere is dead. But then 135 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 4: to hear the screams, No, he's actually alive. So my 136 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,840 Speaker 4: brain's going dead alive and he's alive. But Michael mar 137 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 4: the paramedic. Michael was laying on his tummy with his 138 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 4: head down into this manhole, and we ran over and 139 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 4: the water was bubbling up on the manhole. But the 140 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 4: screams are coming up through the water. I'm even more 141 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,840 Speaker 4: confused by this stage, so I called. I said, I 142 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 4: want a scuba tank. I want to regulator because I 143 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 4: had done some scuba diving. I said, there are the 144 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 4: two things I want, And somebody produced a ladder and 145 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 4: plunked it down the manhole, and there's actual TV footage 146 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 4: of Gavin trying to squeeze his way down. 147 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 2: The camera cruiser. 148 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 3: Yeahound up the emergency services. You've got everyone that's now 149 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 3: over watching this. 150 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 4: And at some stage, I don't know when, but I 151 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 4: took my soup pants off and I'm there and boxes 152 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 4: stah my ppees. Anyway, so Gav's we're all there. But 153 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 4: there's these screams, and these these are terrifying screams. A 154 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 4: child screaming for their life. It was terrifying. So they 155 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 4: put another rope around me and don't want that. Gav 156 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 4: went down straight down the ladder. He disappeared under the water. 157 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 4: I followed him down and the water is not clear, 158 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 4: sobu it's floodwater, it's filthy money. Gav disappeared. I went down. 159 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 4: I'm under the water trying to film a way around, 160 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 4: and we both came up in the junction of six 161 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 4: of these pipes which were pouring in. 162 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 2: On top of head torch on is it down there? 163 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 4: No, it's pitched black. We haven't got a torch, we've 164 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 4: got nothing. And we weren't communicating. We just just knew 165 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 4: what we thought we had to do, and that was 166 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 4: to search to try and find which pipe is up? 167 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 2: Followed the voice, right, yeah, yeah. 168 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 4: And we searched a couple of pipes each and then 169 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 4: when I went up, I thought it's this one. I've 170 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 4: got to take a punt. I think it's this one, 171 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 4: because we were conscious if it rains again, we're all dead, 172 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 4: because downpour, we're dead. We're not going to get out. 173 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 2: You're done. 174 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 4: So I said to Gav, look, I think it's this one. 175 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 4: Can you try and find it a way into this pipe? 176 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:57,079 Speaker 4: So I regret that decision in hindsight, but Gav should 177 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 4: have been there with me to rejoice in the success 178 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 4: we eventually had. Gab deserved to be there for that 179 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 4: moment in life. And I've always regretted that I asked 180 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 4: Gab to leave the drain system. 181 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 2: And why did you make that decision? What was going 182 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 2: for you head? Was his safety or. 183 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 4: No is to try and get to this kid as 184 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 4: quickly as we could. If I couldn't get to him, 185 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 4: maybe up some other way. Unbeknownst to us, the council 186 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 4: was bringing down a backo. They were going to dig 187 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 4: up the highway to try and find this kid. That's 188 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 4: how desperate it was. And so Gave went up, and 189 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 4: then Michael Marlin, paramedic, came down and he gave me 190 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 4: a torch, and I think he insisted I put a 191 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 4: rope around my tummy. But this time I'm on my 192 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 4: fingernails and toenails, crawling up this pipe to try and 193 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 4: get to where I think the kid is. 194 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 5: And again these screams are. 195 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 4: Just doing my head and I'm crawling up, literally crawling 196 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 4: in amongst the concrete and the crap that's in a 197 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 4: concrete pipe, and it's. 198 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 5: Shoulder with the part. 199 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 4: I was watching your show the other night where they 200 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 4: did the exercise being in the water pipe. Yeah wow, okay, 201 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 4: I know that's like yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, so I'm 202 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 4: crawling up the pipe. Michael mar is behind me, screaming 203 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 4: at me. If you got him out, I've got him. 204 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 4: Have you got him? 205 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 2: How long have you been down there? 206 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 4: Ah? 207 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 2: You're cold, your well. 208 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 4: I'm freezing him miserable. We're freezing and ol. Hears this 209 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 4: kid screaming. Michael's screaming. So I'm screaming at Michael, like, 210 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 4: shut the f up. I'm trying to call the kid. 211 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 4: It's okay, mate, I'm coming, I'm coming, I'm coming. 212 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 2: Could he hear your voice? Was he responding? 213 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 5: No, he was. 214 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 4: He was just he'd lost it. He was hysterical, he was, 215 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 4: no doubt, hypothermic. He's been in there for forty five minutes, 216 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 4: hanging on for dear life, because he's just hanging on 217 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 4: to a log that's stammed across the pipe. If that 218 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:51,679 Speaker 4: log wasn't there, he was dead because he would have 219 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 4: got washed down to a great there was no way 220 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 4: that he would have survived. So he's been hanging on 221 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 4: there in the pitch dark, with his water just houring 222 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 4: onto his body, screaming and screaming for his life, and suddenly, 223 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 4: no doubt he can see torchlight. But I don't know 224 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 4: whether he understands what it is. And I really wasn't. 225 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 4: I wasn't thinking about does he know? Does he know? 226 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 4: I'm just trying to get to him. I'm absolutely desperate, 227 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 4: and I started to pray, like, please, God, let me 228 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,319 Speaker 4: get to him, Please don't let him get washed away. 229 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 4: And I kept crawling and crawling, crawling, and I can 230 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 4: picture it to this absolute moment in time. My torch 231 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 4: light finally picked up his face. That's all I can 232 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 4: see was just his face and the illumination of the 233 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 4: torch hitting his face. It was like I saw a ghost, 234 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,679 Speaker 4: and it is so vivid in my memory. And I 235 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 4: coaxed him to come towards me because I thought I'm 236 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 4: not going to get to him. 237 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 2: How far were you away from him when you swim? Oh? 238 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:53,199 Speaker 4: And probably ten meters and I was about thirty meters 239 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 4: up the yeah, yeah, So I'd crawl thirty meters on 240 00:11:58,200 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 4: my guts to get to him. 241 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 5: And then he did. 242 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 4: He got washed down to me and I've got hold 243 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 4: of him. And I was like, you've got him, and 244 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 4: out of the blue, I just said, say thank you God. 245 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 4: And I'm not a religious person and I'm a very 246 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 4: spiritual person, but I said, you say thank you God. 247 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 4: And this little boy he just said thank you God. 248 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 4: He started to bail his eyes out, and I did. 249 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 4: I started to bore my eyes out. 250 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 3: So you have this moment where you've got him in 251 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 3: your arms, he's gripping news. He is he calming down 252 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 3: or is he just still? 253 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 4: He had basically just collapsed with exhaustion, with emotion, with 254 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 4: a sense of his I feel safe. Now this man's 255 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 4: got me. I feel safe. And then I somehow pushed 256 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 4: him under me and then he got washed down to 257 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 4: Michael mar the paramedic. Michael's got him, assessed him there, 258 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 4: Michael swam him under the water, got to where the 259 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 4: manhole was. Michael climbed up the ladder then and the 260 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 4: TV foot cameras rolling and they reached down and they 261 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 4: pulled this little kid out out of the drain and 262 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 4: he just comes up like a drowned rat. And they 263 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 4: put him on the ambulance gurn He wraped him up 264 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 4: an emergency blanket. His mom's there, she's been there through 265 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 4: the whole thing. She was hearing her child screaming for 266 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 4: their life. They wrap him up in the blanket. Her 267 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,959 Speaker 4: mum's just hugging him and hugging him. And I get 268 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 4: out of the pipe. I go to the car and 269 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 4: I'm sitting in the passenger seat of this car, and 270 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 4: I was cold. I remember being really cold. 271 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 2: How long have you been down there for? 272 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 5: And I don't know how long. 273 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 2: Had he been down there for. 274 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 4: At least forty five minutes, at least forty five minutes. 275 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 4: And halfway down the pipe, he saw some light and 276 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 4: he reached up and he grabbed hold of a grate 277 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 4: in the side of the road. Because his vision impaired, 278 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 4: his glasses went flying as soon as he got sucked 279 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 4: off the boogie board. Evidently, he tells me that he 280 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 4: could see shapes and he just started to scream and 281 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 4: screen for help, and then the water just washed him 282 00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 4: away another three hundred meters, So he's been washed six 283 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 4: hundred meters down the pipe. 284 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 2: Wow. 285 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 4: And then I'm in the car and just I mean, 286 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 4: like I'm in shock. I remember going back to the 287 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 4: police station. 288 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 5: Dad. 289 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 4: My wife, she was a cop there. She's in her office. 290 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 4: She isn't doing she's in a chop protection unit. So 291 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 4: she's in the in her office and they had for 292 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 4: some reason, I had the radio turned down, so she 293 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 4: didn't know anything was going on. And she saw the 294 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 4: car pull up and she looked out. She saw Gavin 295 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 4: get out in his pants and shirt saturated, holding his 296 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 4: gun on handcuffs. 297 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 5: She's going, oh, it's strange. 298 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 4: Then she saw me get out in my box of shorts, 299 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 4: holding my gun on handcuffs, had a lot of blood 300 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 4: in my back and other stuff. I've just gone, yeah, 301 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 4: from a look like cutting myself on the concrete pipe 302 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 4: because it was so narrow and trying to get it 303 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 4: squeeze myself around. So I went into the crime scene 304 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 4: and I've just jumped straight in the shower just to 305 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 4: wash all this felt filthy and deb found me. I 306 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 4: just just curled up in a ball on the bottom 307 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 4: of the shower. A sist just sobbing my. 308 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 3: Heart straight after the incident, Yeah it's affected you straight away. 309 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, I've had a serious, a serious how'd you say? 310 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 4: Looking at it scientifically, I think I went from being 311 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 4: a sympathetic, nervous state into a massive power, sympathetic. I'm safe, 312 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 4: I'm warm, I'm okay, and my body has just shut down. 313 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 3: My next guest is Greg Mullins, who is widely known 314 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 3: as a legend in the firefighting community. In our interview, 315 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 3: he took me back to the Black Summer of twenty 316 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 3: nineteen and shared the impact of that awful time. 317 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 6: Every state and territory had major fires, so and that 318 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 6: had never happened before. There used to be sequential they 319 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 6: come from the north and we'd share fire fight across borders. 320 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 6: All of a sudden we're in the fight of our 321 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 6: lives and couldn't help each other. The aircraft we needed. 322 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 6: California still had fires and they wouldn't let a lot 323 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 6: of them go because a big aircraft we don't have 324 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 6: any in Australia, or didn't have any in Australia. Then 325 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 6: we had to lease them, and so they were saying, no, 326 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 6: we've got our own problems, you can wait. So the 327 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 6: fires got bigger and bigger. The weather it was the 328 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 6: worst weather ever recorded, so for months and months and months. 329 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 6: There's a whole lot of things that contributed to that, 330 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 6: in the Antarctic and the tropics, and the unusual weather patterns, 331 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 6: but we had drought, so we had strong westerly winds 332 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 6: coming off the desert, off the interior the out back, 333 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 6: hitting the coast, very low humidity, very high temperatures. I 334 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 6: was fighting fires one day twenty first of December twenty nineteen, 335 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:55,479 Speaker 6: it just about reached fifty degrees in western Sydney. I 336 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 6: did a twenty six hour shift and ended up in 337 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 6: bed with the hydration, pretty sick, and you know, we 338 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 6: saved dozens of hams that night, but it nearly didn't 339 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 6: make it home. And so it was horrendous weather. And 340 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 6: as a young firefighter, I remember thinking, oh, you know 341 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 6: the old one hundred degrees fahrenheit, that's thirty eight degrees. 342 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 6: That's about as hot as it would ever get. But 343 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 6: then we were fighting fires regularly in forty five forty seven. 344 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 6: It was just horrendous. And it took off in November 345 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 6: again and I was actually in California at the Kincaid 346 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:34,919 Speaker 6: Fire in Sonoma County. So I went over with the 347 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 6: Climate Council. The ABC Australian Broadcasting Commission tagged along and 348 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 6: I went out to this fire and they did a 349 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 6: little special and it went to where I think it 350 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 6: was the seventh of November. Sorry, I'm a nerder, remember dates. 351 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 6: It's a roundabout then and on the and me saying, well, 352 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 6: look at this fire in California. Here's what's changing with 353 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,239 Speaker 6: climate change. They didn't get big fires like this than 354 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 6: California this time of year, but now they do same 355 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 6: in Australia and this build up, this is the worst 356 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,439 Speaker 6: I've ever seen. And I'm really frightened about what's going 357 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 6: to happen. So the next day after they ran it 358 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 6: across Australia, the fires went wild and lost dozens and 359 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 6: dozens of homes, some lives, and you're. 360 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 3: Back to back at this stage, you know, every man 361 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 3: and his dog is out. Are you undermanned as a 362 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 3: fire service? So all your these resources stretched? 363 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 2: Is it? 364 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 6: Well? It was just relentless and relentlessly and it was 365 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 6: just you know, you're going from August and just. 366 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 2: There was no rest months and months, and. 367 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:41,919 Speaker 6: People who lived in the fire areas and I was 368 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 6: really lucky. I thought, if Sydney gets hit, you know 369 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,479 Speaker 6: that's where the real property losses have traditionally happened, as 370 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,360 Speaker 6: on the outskirts of Sydney and the Blue Mountains near Sydney, 371 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 6: but we were losing hundreds of homes in regional areas 372 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,719 Speaker 6: which had never happened before, and it just showed how 373 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 6: big the fires were. But yeah, people were exhausted and 374 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 6: you couldn't get the interstate assistance because they had their 375 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 6: own fires. You didn't have enough aircraft, you know. I 376 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 6: remember watching a drop on the south coast of New 377 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 6: South Wales, thinking great, and then it was two hours 378 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 6: before the next one because it had to fly back 379 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 6: to Sydney and relaid and come back, and it was 380 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 6: just there was no point, you know, And it was 381 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 6: and the small aircraft couldn't fly because wind was too strong. 382 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 6: So we'd get days of catastrophic fire weather, which was 383 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 6: a new rating we'd brought in because of climate change 384 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 6: because the weather was getting so bad. But most aircraft 385 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 6: couldn't fly in those days because the wind was too 386 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 6: gusty and strong, and there was a bad air crash 387 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 6: a see one thirty hercules went in on one of 388 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 6: these days. 389 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:46,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I heard about that. 390 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 6: It was just, yeah, horrific. So look, it just got 391 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 6: worse and worse and worse and culminated on New Year's 392 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 6: Eve twenty nineteen, the South coast of New South Wales, 393 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 6: which is hundreds of kilometers long, beautiful beaches. Tens of 394 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 6: thousands of people go there for their Christmas holidays. It 395 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 6: was evacuated and there were dozens of huge fires, and 396 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 6: I remember being down there on Newyear's Day. We left 397 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 6: Sydney about four am. Would have been hundreds of fire 398 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 6: trucks heading down there, and we just couldn't do a 399 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 6: thing because we had what we called a pyro convective 400 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 6: storm above us, and that means the fire was so 401 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 6: hot the convection column pushed into the stratosphere and brought 402 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:39,360 Speaker 6: gale storm force winds to the surface this incredibly dry air, 403 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,479 Speaker 6: and huge trees next to us were just getting snapped 404 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,479 Speaker 6: off like toothpicks and thrown around. And I didn't think 405 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 6: it was coming home again, I thought, but you talked 406 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,399 Speaker 6: about the animals and this is I was back to 407 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 6: my psychologist over this one because I couldn't talk about 408 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,120 Speaker 6: I can talk about it now without sort of tearing up, 409 00:20:58,160 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 6: but it took a lot of work to get there. 410 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 6: I remember being on a highway and there's factories burning 411 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 6: and homes burning, and we didn't have any water and 412 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 6: the power had gone and we couldn't get any water. 413 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 6: I saw something over on the side of the highway 414 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 6: through the smoke. What's that And I thought it was 415 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 6: burnt hay bales, And then some of them started to 416 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 6: move and went over closer, and it was a mob 417 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:26,439 Speaker 6: of kangaroos who had been caught in the forest and 418 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:28,959 Speaker 6: just caught fire and come out on the raid and 419 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 6: just died on the raid. And I've never seen that, 420 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 6: because kangaroos know how to get away from fires. And 421 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 6: I just, yeah, i'd cry if I talked about it 422 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 6: for months, and it just said everything to me. I 423 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:49,399 Speaker 6: just thought, my grandkids are going to grow up this. 424 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 6: You know, millions of hectares have been sterilized for decades. 425 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 6: Animals will come back, but nothing like when I was 426 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 6: a kid. My parents took me camping and you'd see 427 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 6: kangaroos and koalas and kidnaps and goannas and well, this 428 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 6: beautiful wildlife it was wiped out. 429 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 3: I had a sense of worthlessness when you just said, 430 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 3: I was stood there. You're looking around, everything around you's 431 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 3: on fire. You can't do your job because you've got 432 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 3: no resources. And I can imagine me being in a 433 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:28,360 Speaker 3: in a war zone, you know, with no weapon. Just wow, 434 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 3: that must be some Yeah, sort of had space to 435 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 3: be in. 436 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 2: What was going for your head? 437 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 6: I'm not good, certainly not good. And look the mental 438 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 6: health issues with firefighters since then, and thinking you're going 439 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 6: to die is you know, as you know, it's not 440 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 6: a good thing, and you do that too many times 441 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 6: and plays with the head a bit. That's an understatement. 442 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 6: But just not being able to help was so destroying. 443 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 6: You know, I'm a five fighter, but I can't fight 444 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 6: your fire. And sorry, I can't help you because I'm 445 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 6: just dodging trees and I don't know if I'm getting 446 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 6: out of here, you know, I don't know if I'm 447 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:10,920 Speaker 6: going home from this. 448 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 5: So and it was just. 449 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 6: It's just like having your legs cut off out from 450 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 6: under you. 451 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 2: You know. 452 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 6: It was just the whole reason for being and he 453 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 6: couldn't do it, and it brought it home to me. 454 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 6: And I've got to say I was so pissed off 455 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 6: with the government that day, and a couple of days 456 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 6: later the Prime Minister had a press conference and so 457 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 6: I'm going to fix it all. I'm going to give 458 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 6: them money for aircraft. I was pretty angry and I don't. 459 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 6: I actually don't talk about that much because I think 460 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 6: it serves no purpose. But the other thing was he 461 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,159 Speaker 6: went overseas on a holiday and didn't tell anyone. You know, 462 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 6: if he told people, fine, but he kept it secret 463 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 6: because he knew he should have been there providing leadership 464 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 6: during a disaster, but he took off. 465 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 3: And so all that also motion, there's anger, resentment, yeah 466 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:00,439 Speaker 3: you know, worth you don't feel like you can do 467 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 3: your job. Well, you can't do your job negative emotions. 468 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 6: Yeah you can't. 469 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 2: But how did you deal with that? Well, you got 470 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 2: to go home and crive. How did you deal with that? 471 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 3: Was was there a look at the moments that you 472 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 3: sort of just broke down and was just. 473 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 6: Like, yeah, well yes, but look in my book, I 474 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 6: talk about it. A day I was going out on 475 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 6: the fire line again. It was that forty nine degree day, 476 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 6: and but two days before I'd been fighting fires down 477 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 6: to the south of Sydney and two young dads were 478 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:38,160 Speaker 6: killed when a tree fell on their truck. And that's 479 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:43,360 Speaker 6: my trigger, you know, the big one. And I went 480 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 6: to a cafe before I was going on shift. I 481 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,360 Speaker 6: thought I'll have breakfast and I walked in I had 482 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:50,439 Speaker 6: the newspaper and I opened it up and there they 483 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 6: are on the front cover, and. 484 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 5: I've the tears started. 485 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 6: I've I've had to pull myself together, people sort of 486 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 6: looking at me because I'm in a uniform and back 487 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 6: in the car, and I thought, okay, deep breaths, deep breaths, right, 488 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 6: all the all the techniques right. So I go to 489 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 6: the counter and autumn at breakfast, and then I just 490 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 6: remember the barista came over to the girl and the 491 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 6: on the cash register. And then the girl said it's fine, 492 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 6: it's taken care of and I said what and she said, 493 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,239 Speaker 6: on a flow, he has paid for your breakfast. And 494 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 6: she said, thank you so much for what you do. 495 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 5: And I just. 496 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 6: And that I just thought of those two young dads 497 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 6: and I just and I lost it and it was 498 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 6: so embarrassing, but I just sat tears and't it. Yeah, 499 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:47,120 Speaker 6: so brought it back. But how nice people are and 500 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 6: how good but these two young blakes, their families would 501 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:50,400 Speaker 6: never see them again. 502 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 3: And also the appreciation that that, yeah, I went of 503 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 3: kindness amongst the chaos. 504 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have to let it out. And 505 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:01,640 Speaker 6: I learned that. 506 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 3: My final guest today is Sally gould Sally is a 507 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 3: paramedic and experienced a lot very early on in her career. 508 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 3: She shared that in her interview with myself. 509 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 7: Yeah, there have been a few times when the scene's 510 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 7: not as been as secure as I'd like it, and 511 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 7: often they come out of nowhere, and again, you think 512 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 7: you're prepared, you think you've done your scanning and you're 513 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,879 Speaker 7: checking your egress points, and then something unexpected will happen 514 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 7: and you just feel like the rug's being pulled out 515 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 7: from under you and you've put yourself in a really 516 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 7: dangerous position. I was working with a partner and we 517 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 7: attended this young female who had her mother on scene. 518 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,479 Speaker 7: And as we entered the property, it just looked fairly benign, 519 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,959 Speaker 7: a tidy ordered house. The people greeted us respectfully. She 520 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 7: was holding her face as if she'd had some sort 521 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 7: of injury underneath it, and I started introduce seeing myself 522 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 7: and my partner and speaking to the patient, and the 523 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,199 Speaker 7: mother just looked a bit unsettled and uneasy, and her 524 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 7: eyes sort of started diving across the room, and obviously 525 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 7: I started tingling, you know, feeling uncomfortable. Something's going on here, 526 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 7: And the next words out of my mouth were going 527 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 7: to be you know, is anyone else home? But before 528 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 7: I could say that, a door opened across the other 529 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 7: side of the room, and a young male who looked 530 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,360 Speaker 7: completely furious, stormed out and then pinned his mother up 531 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 7: against the wall by the throat. And I remember just 532 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 7: freezing in that instance and just thinking, this is not 533 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 7: what I'm here for, This is not what I'm paid for, 534 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 7: this is not in my job. This violent man I 535 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 7: don't know. I don't know anything about him. I don't 536 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 7: know anything about these people, and now I'm in their 537 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 7: house watching this unfold. Thankfully, he wasn't targeting us, and 538 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 7: we made it out safely and okay, and managed to 539 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 7: treat the people and they were also okay in the end. 540 00:27:54,880 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 7: But that feeling of being completely blindsided, out of control, unsafe, 541 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 7: and then for me, when I reflected, it was also 542 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,880 Speaker 7: the concern that, you know, what would I have done? 543 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 7: Would I have been able to defend myself, would I 544 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 7: have was I aware enough of my exits? All those 545 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 7: types of things, And yeah, I think that was a 546 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 7: wake up call. Just you know, the next few weeks months, 547 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 7: I was you know, had my eyes everywhere. I was 548 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 7: asking people who's home. You know, all these types of things, 549 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 7: because it just all these little jobs that don't go 550 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 7: the way you planned, a little reminders that you carry 551 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 7: with you probably for the rest of your career. 552 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 3: And does it change your your approach, that change how 553 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 3: you operate and how you function. 554 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 7: Yeah, I think it. It ups your vigilance for every 555 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 7: job from then on, you know. And that's the beauty 556 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 7: of the way we learn as paramedics in sharing our stories. 557 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 7: You know, you go back to the station, you tell 558 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 7: your mates this happened to us, so that they can 559 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 7: also carry that with them and keep themselves even safer 560 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 7: on the next job. 561 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I suppose as well. 562 00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 3: Looking just hearing that story, you're entering people private spaces, 563 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 3: aren't you. You're intruding into people's personal space. It can 564 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 3: feel like that, right. 565 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 7: And we're also coming on a day that's high stress 566 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 7: for them. It could be the worst day of their life. 567 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 7: And everyone responds so differently to trauma and stress, and 568 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,959 Speaker 7: often for some people them feeling out of control and 569 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 7: scared comes out as anger and violence. And you can't 570 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 7: always predict who's going to act that way. But you know, 571 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 7: parents with young children are a big one. You know, 572 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 7: they panic, they feel out of control, and for some 573 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 7: of them, the only coping mechanism they've got is to 574 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 7: turn that into fear, you know, and anger, and we 575 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 7: often cop the brunt of that, just trying to de 576 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 7: escalate that and care for the child or whoever's injured 577 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 7: and for the people that are there having an emotional response. 578 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 3: To hear more from these three amazing guests. You can 579 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 3: listen to the full episodes now are linked the details 580 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 3: in the show notes. I hope you enjoyed this special 581 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 3: episode of head Game. If you did, please consider leaving 582 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 3: me a review. I'm at Middleton, see you in the 583 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 3: next episode.