WEBVTT - Inside the minds of monsters: Chris Blake Pt.1

0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880
<v Speaker 1>The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.039
<v Speaker 1>Detective sy aside of life the average person is never

0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.119
<v Speaker 1>exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040
<v Speaker 1>For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200
<v Speaker 1>That's what I did for a living. I was a

0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560
<v Speaker 1>homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120
<v Speaker 1>I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400
<v Speaker 1>The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760
<v Speaker 1>from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440
<v Speaker 1>and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640
<v Speaker 1>of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640
<v Speaker 1>no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.400
<v Speaker 1>Join me now as I take you into this world.

0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:49.080
<v Speaker 1>I've always found trying to understand the mind of a

0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:52.879
<v Speaker 1>criminal a useful tool in solving crimes. Getting into the

0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:56.160
<v Speaker 1>mind of a criminal can also prevent crimes before they occur.

0:00:56.680 --> 0:00:59.640
<v Speaker 1>It's a fascinating part of being a detective. That's why

0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:04.479
<v Speaker 1>i'd about talking to today's guest Detective Senior Sergeant Chris Blake.

0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:07.600
<v Speaker 1>Chris is a serving member of the New Zealand Police

0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:10.440
<v Speaker 1>Force and he is the manager of the Behavioral Science Unit,

0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:13.680
<v Speaker 1>a unit that was modeled on a similar unit established

0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:17.000
<v Speaker 1>by the FBI. Chris's role is to ensure his team

0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:21.479
<v Speaker 1>of psychologists and analysts provide support to investigators to solve

0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:25.039
<v Speaker 1>and prevent serious crimes. Today we talked about the history

0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:28.920
<v Speaker 1>of the unit, Chris's own policing career, some interesting cases,

0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:33.319
<v Speaker 1>and how the skills his unit provide assists investigators. This

0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:36.240
<v Speaker 1>is real life mind Hunter stuff. You're going to enjoy it.

0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:40.080
<v Speaker 1>Chris Blake, Welcome to I Catch Killers.

0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:42.479
<v Speaker 2>Well, thanks, Garry, it's a pleasure to be here.

0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:44.800
<v Speaker 1>Well, I know how hard it can be for a

0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:49.000
<v Speaker 1>serving police officer to get permission and approval to do

0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:52.120
<v Speaker 1>anything in the media or come on a podcast like this,

0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:55.040
<v Speaker 1>so I appreciate you making the effort.

0:01:55.520 --> 0:01:57.360
<v Speaker 2>No nowhere is at all. Hopefully we can do it.

0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:02.240
<v Speaker 1>Justice Parameters, Well, I think it's good for people to

0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:05.920
<v Speaker 1>hear from serving police officer as a public because people's

0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:08.720
<v Speaker 1>perception of what police are all about and it's very

0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:11.720
<v Speaker 1>sort of black and white world. Are they the cops

0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:14.320
<v Speaker 1>are the cops, And it's good to put a human

0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:18.919
<v Speaker 1>face to what we actually do. Yeah, absolutely, house things

0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:22.760
<v Speaker 1>in New Zealand, police force because over here across the country,

0:02:22.800 --> 0:02:25.320
<v Speaker 1>like I'm from New South Wales and we have the

0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:28.560
<v Speaker 1>state police and the federal police, but we're really struggling

0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:30.600
<v Speaker 1>to get people to join the police at the moment.

0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:33.280
<v Speaker 1>Are you experiencing the same thing over in New Zealand?

0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:36.600
<v Speaker 2>Not that I can gather. I think almost the opposite.

0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:39.880
<v Speaker 2>They seem to be pumping the wings through the college,

0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:43.200
<v Speaker 2>so I'm not sure what's behind that. I think there's

0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:47.440
<v Speaker 2>a lot of people hunting for jobs, and it's a

0:02:47.639 --> 0:02:49.680
<v Speaker 2>secure job for life if you want it, so it's

0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:51.960
<v Speaker 2>actually quite attractive at the moment for a lot of people.

0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:54.560
<v Speaker 1>I think, well, I think in today's day and age,

0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:58.079
<v Speaker 1>having a secure job is a very good thing.

0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:01.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Absolutely, I'm not qualified to do anything else, so

0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:05.120
<v Speaker 2>I can't afford to lose my job. So I think

0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:06.960
<v Speaker 2>a lot of people that do leave, Yeah, I find

0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:08.560
<v Speaker 2>that they do come back eventually.

0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:12.240
<v Speaker 1>I found that over the years with people I knew

0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:14.040
<v Speaker 1>that just hit the wall and I'm out of here.

0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:16.120
<v Speaker 1>I hate this job. There's an easier life. There's a

0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:18.720
<v Speaker 1>better life out there. If I put it on a

0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:21.600
<v Speaker 1>percentage basis, I reckon ninety percent. Tried to get back

0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:22.600
<v Speaker 1>in at some stage.

0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:26.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Absolutely, unless you find something fantastic that just takes

0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:29.560
<v Speaker 2>off and that's you. Then year people eventually go, actually,

0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:30.560
<v Speaker 2>that wasn't that bad.

0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:35.160
<v Speaker 1>Well, and the beauty of being a cop, and I've

0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:37.800
<v Speaker 1>had a few New Zealand cops on and so I

0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:41.000
<v Speaker 1>get the understanding of the way you guys operate, and

0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:44.200
<v Speaker 1>it's not this similar to how we operate. But the

0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:46.920
<v Speaker 1>diversity of roles that you can get in policing is

0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:49.600
<v Speaker 1>it's like a small gas board, isn't it. Oh it is.

0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:52.280
<v Speaker 2>You could probably think of any job you could do

0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:55.120
<v Speaker 2>outside and most of them on some way, shape or form,

0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:58.080
<v Speaker 2>you can probably find inside the police. You know. If

0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:00.400
<v Speaker 2>you want to be a commercial diver, well there's a

0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:03.040
<v Speaker 2>dive squad. You want to fly helicopters, well you could

0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:05.120
<v Speaker 2>get a job on the police helicopter, you know, and

0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:07.720
<v Speaker 2>everything in between. So it's pretty incredible.

0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:11.000
<v Speaker 1>No, Well, I'm always like to speak to people that

0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:14.560
<v Speaker 1>like their job when they're they're police officers. You've found

0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:18.360
<v Speaker 1>yourself in a I'm slightly jealous because I think it'd

0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:20.599
<v Speaker 1>be fascinating the role that you've got now heading up

0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:25.480
<v Speaker 1>the Behavioral Science Unit of New Zealand police. That must

0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:28.359
<v Speaker 1>have been something that you were very excited about getting

0:04:28.360 --> 0:04:30.080
<v Speaker 1>that role. Oh yeah, and it.

0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:33.280
<v Speaker 2>Sort of stumbled into it. It was a job I

0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:36.400
<v Speaker 2>didn't really want for another ten years. I wanted to

0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:38.680
<v Speaker 2>enjoy what I was doing, learn a bit more, get

0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:42.640
<v Speaker 2>some qualifications. It was sort of like that pinnacle goal.

0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:45.400
<v Speaker 2>And then when they advertised it, I wasn't even going

0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:47.720
<v Speaker 2>to apply, and my wife suggests that I should, so

0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:49.640
<v Speaker 2>that I throw my name and the hat and maybe

0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:52.280
<v Speaker 2>next time they'll take a look at you. And then

0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:54.960
<v Speaker 2>I got it. So I found myself going, this is insane.

0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:57.880
<v Speaker 2>How do I do this job? And totally reliant on

0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:01.680
<v Speaker 2>the staff, the experts there to show me the.

0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:05.560
<v Speaker 1>Rope because you were a detective before then that I

0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:09.680
<v Speaker 1>always liked and I work very closely with a psychologist

0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:14.400
<v Speaker 1>in my time in homicide, doctor Sarah Yull, and I

0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:17.800
<v Speaker 1>found it fascinating getting a different perspective on the way

0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:19.240
<v Speaker 1>to approach investigations.

0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:23.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, definitely. It is looking from that behavioral angle and

0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:28.480
<v Speaker 2>the steps that the offender has taken, rather than what

0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:31.640
<v Speaker 2>as detectives we do, which is considering everything from a

0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:36.480
<v Speaker 2>physical evidence sort of perspective. Yeah, quite different. But does

0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:39.120
<v Speaker 2>incorporate a lot of the similar sorts of things. You know,

0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:41.880
<v Speaker 2>they are informed by the scene examinations and the suspect

0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:45.360
<v Speaker 2>interviews and all that side of it very much looking

0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:48.520
<v Speaker 2>at the offender and where they've come from, why they

0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:50.279
<v Speaker 2>did what they did, how they did it, where they're going.

0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:53.840
<v Speaker 1>Well, it adds another tool to investigations and for people

0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:56.880
<v Speaker 1>that don't fully appreciate what the role of that unit

0:05:56.920 --> 0:05:59.839
<v Speaker 1>you're heading up at the moment, I just this is

0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:04.440
<v Speaker 1>the description of the role that they play. Help advance

0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:09.320
<v Speaker 1>police investigations by providing operational psychology advice. Psychological advice, I

0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:12.839
<v Speaker 1>should say, help police to better understand criminal behavior and

0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:15.880
<v Speaker 1>the personalities of the people they deal with. Consult the

0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:20.359
<v Speaker 1>high profile, complex and difficult to solve investigations where circumstances

0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:24.960
<v Speaker 1>are often distressing, and the material graphic help provide profiles

0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:30.120
<v Speaker 1>of unidentified offenders, complete indirect personality assessments, and conduct risk

0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:33.560
<v Speaker 1>assessments across multiple domains. Now, I know we've got a

0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:36.520
<v Speaker 1>lot of true crime listeners that tune into this, and

0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:39.360
<v Speaker 1>then people who are fascinated by crime. I think that

0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:42.839
<v Speaker 1>would be really hitting the mark on the interesting aspect

0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:44.200
<v Speaker 1>of criminal investigation.

0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:48.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely, And you know, it's come a long way

0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:51.640
<v Speaker 2>since the nineteen eighties and the days of mind Hunter. Yeah,

0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:54.360
<v Speaker 2>and you know, no longer are we going, you know, hey,

0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:58.039
<v Speaker 2>that's your guy. But there's now been so much science

0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:00.720
<v Speaker 2>between now I'm in then Now they can certainly go

0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:03.760
<v Speaker 2>this is your type of guy, yeah, and this is

0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:04.960
<v Speaker 2>how to go about looking for him.

0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:07.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Well, we had were very Fortunately. I was so

0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:10.640
<v Speaker 1>excited as like a little school kid. Doctor Anne Burgess

0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:15.160
<v Speaker 1>who worked with John Douglas in the establishment of the

0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:18.320
<v Speaker 1>FBI and the unit they had there tied in with

0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:22.240
<v Speaker 1>the mind Hunter TV series that portrayed the work that

0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:25.520
<v Speaker 1>they did, and it was fascinating getting her perspective on

0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:30.280
<v Speaker 1>how it helped advance criminal investigations. So further on in

0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:32.200
<v Speaker 1>the podcast, we're going to break it down the type

0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:35.480
<v Speaker 1>of things that Ken the unit can do. But I

0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:37.880
<v Speaker 1>just want to talk a little bit about yourself first

0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:40.800
<v Speaker 1>up and find out Okay, but what made you join

0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:43.360
<v Speaker 1>the police to start with? You grew up in whereabouts

0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:44.680
<v Speaker 1>in New Zealand? Did you grow up in?

0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:46.760
<v Speaker 2>I grew up in Auckland on the North Shore, So

0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:49.240
<v Speaker 2>that's right. Now I've come a really long way.

0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:54.680
<v Speaker 1>I think like just keep moving forward there. So what

0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:56.360
<v Speaker 1>inspired you to join the police.

0:07:57.560 --> 0:07:59.440
<v Speaker 2>It's a long story and a short one. So I

0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:01.960
<v Speaker 2>never thought about being a cop. When I was younger,

0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:07.680
<v Speaker 2>I was pilot and the Air Force ditched our a

0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:11.960
<v Speaker 2>fighter squadron when I was a young teenager and then, yeah,

0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:14.480
<v Speaker 2>my maths and physics scores were absolutely hopeless, so I

0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:16.880
<v Speaker 2>never had an open hell of getting into the Air Force.

0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:19.520
<v Speaker 1>Just kind of off there. Just say that they scrapped

0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:21.920
<v Speaker 1>the fire the squadron. That's the only thing that held

0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:22.280
<v Speaker 1>you back.

0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:25.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I was definitely destined for that. Yeah, it wasn't

0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:29.600
<v Speaker 2>because I was thick, but I ended up joining. A

0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:31.320
<v Speaker 2>couple of things happened while I was at high school

0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:35.199
<v Speaker 2>that probably, on reflection, did impact where I end up,

0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:38.320
<v Speaker 2>and one of those was Columbine in nineteen ninety nine.

0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:41.920
<v Speaker 2>So I was thirteen when that happened in the States,

0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:46.280
<v Speaker 2>a world away, but massive impact given the media coverage

0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:48.440
<v Speaker 2>it had, right, and I just couldn't wrap my head around,

0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:51.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, there's kids shooting kids, and mum a kid,

0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:55.360
<v Speaker 2>so a lot of thoughts around that. And then a

0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:59.400
<v Speaker 2>year two years later, September eleven, so right at the

0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:02.040
<v Speaker 2>time where I'm thinking, what should I be doing with

0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:05.079
<v Speaker 2>my life? All my mates want to be engineers and

0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:08.760
<v Speaker 2>counts and doctors, and they've got this life plan. I'm going, actually,

0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:12.000
<v Speaker 2>there's more to the world than sitting on earning money.

0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:15.480
<v Speaker 2>So after my pilot dreams were shot down by my

0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:18.760
<v Speaker 2>lack of brain, I ended up joining the Army Reserve

0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:23.800
<v Speaker 2>into the infantry and some awesome stuff in there, you know,

0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:27.160
<v Speaker 2>just the that mindset of we're just going to do this,

0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:30.520
<v Speaker 2>synk it through it, no matter what brilliant brilliance training.

0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:32.959
<v Speaker 2>But it definitely made me think I don't want to

0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:35.680
<v Speaker 2>be wet, cold, tired and hungry twenty four to seven

0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:38.120
<v Speaker 2>for the rest of my life. So I ended up

0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:40.120
<v Speaker 2>going what should I be doing? Full time? And the

0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:43.920
<v Speaker 2>police then kind of came up as a pretty sound

0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:47.880
<v Speaker 2>secondary option. So it wasn't until Army it even considered it.

0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:49.840
<v Speaker 2>There are a few cops in the Army Reserves with

0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:52.679
<v Speaker 2>me and they talked fondly about it. So I thought,

0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:54.079
<v Speaker 2>I'll get that a crack for a couple of years

0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:56.480
<v Speaker 2>and then do something else, And almost twenty years on,

0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:57.760
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure there.

0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:02.320
<v Speaker 1>Well, maybe it was destinate choosing that path. What was

0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:06.800
<v Speaker 1>it about the crimes that you talked of that fascinated

0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:08.920
<v Speaker 1>you because you would have only been a teenager at

0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:12.600
<v Speaker 1>that stage. What was it that really resonated with you

0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:15.760
<v Speaker 1>when you saw the reports of Colombine and ninety eleven?

0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:16.480
<v Speaker 1>What was it?

0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:19.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? I mean I just couldn't. I couldn't really understand it, right,

0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:23.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, being thirteen and not knowing anything about psychology,

0:10:23.760 --> 0:10:27.199
<v Speaker 2>let alone grievance and all of that sort of stuff.

0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:30.000
<v Speaker 2>It just couldn't, for the life of me gather you know,

0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:34.400
<v Speaker 2>you'd heard about terrorism and these words, and that people

0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:38.720
<v Speaker 2>shoot people and murderers, but they have two kids walking

0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:41.080
<v Speaker 2>to a school and do that. It was so bizarre

0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:44.320
<v Speaker 2>to me. And so you know, every article I could find,

0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:46.480
<v Speaker 2>I'd be reading about it because I was just interested.

0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:48.480
<v Speaker 2>And I think it took them a very long time

0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:51.200
<v Speaker 2>to even unpack a lot of the wires behind that.

0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:55.360
<v Speaker 2>And as you know, Gary, even if you get all

0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:58.440
<v Speaker 2>the wires, it still doesn't really make a lot of sense.

0:10:58.920 --> 0:10:59.280
<v Speaker 1>Nice.

0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:02.720
<v Speaker 2>You know, when there are people around that have seen

0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:05.160
<v Speaker 2>things and there's a bit of leakage, and there are

0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:07.160
<v Speaker 2>people that are friends with these guys, and you just go,

0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:10.280
<v Speaker 2>how does this happen? I mean, it's not happening all

0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:10.720
<v Speaker 2>the time.

0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:16.080
<v Speaker 1>It's quite frightening what's happening. And we had Nathan Brooks

0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:19.440
<v Speaker 1>on doctor Nathan Brooks who works in your unit and

0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:23.840
<v Speaker 1>talking about crime, and even Am Burgess talking about where

0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:28.480
<v Speaker 1>the future of crime could be. And these lone actors

0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:33.280
<v Speaker 1>are definitely a concern, and it's just it feels volatile.

0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:35.920
<v Speaker 1>I think all communities are feeling a little bit vulnerable

0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:39.240
<v Speaker 1>for various reasons. But the ideologies that seem to be

0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:42.520
<v Speaker 1>getting more extreme and the way that way that people react.

0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:46.160
<v Speaker 1>Just wind it back a little bit to the Army reserves.

0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:50.080
<v Speaker 1>You said it was good in that you've got to

0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:52.760
<v Speaker 1>address problems. Okay, we're going to overcome this, and that

0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:57.280
<v Speaker 1>I honestly think that the military perceived as sort of

0:11:57.320 --> 0:12:00.960
<v Speaker 1>concrete thinkers in just a perception of the military that

0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:05.320
<v Speaker 1>they don't open their minds up to other alternatives. My

0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:08.520
<v Speaker 1>experience of it, my observations of it, it's so far

0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:09.840
<v Speaker 1>from the truth. It's not funny.

0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:13.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely, i'd agree with that. I think, you know,

0:12:13.720 --> 0:12:17.560
<v Speaker 2>the tactics involved, they're pretty conferent because they have to be.

0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.360
<v Speaker 2>Everyone's got to know what they're doing. If you're shot

0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:23.679
<v Speaker 2>at and you're going to react to that. Everyone needs

0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:25.760
<v Speaker 2>to know what they're supposed to do. But in terms

0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:31.160
<v Speaker 2>of innovating and overcoming and adapting, Yeah, that's a component

0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:34.440
<v Speaker 2>to it, right, And that's probably the unseen stuff that

0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:37.680
<v Speaker 2>people don't really consider. They just see the tactics or

0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:41.200
<v Speaker 2>that concrete side of it, and that colors the whole

0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:41.800
<v Speaker 2>idea of it.

0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:44.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's an interesting view. I even saw it in

0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:47.880
<v Speaker 1>policing because I spent some time in tactical policing and

0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:52.199
<v Speaker 1>also criminal investigations, and the criminal investigators were always paying

0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:54.480
<v Speaker 1>out on the tactical dudes that they're just the knuckle

0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:57.439
<v Speaker 1>draggers and all that. But I can honestly say when

0:12:57.640 --> 0:12:59.640
<v Speaker 1>I've worked with them, sometimes you're sitting in the back

0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:02.720
<v Speaker 1>of a vent or sometimes you do briefing or waiting

0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:06.120
<v Speaker 1>or waiting for the briefing, and you'd have some quite

0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:09.480
<v Speaker 1>intellectual conversations. And I think it would surprise people because

0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:11.240
<v Speaker 1>they just see the blikes running around in the black

0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:15.480
<v Speaker 1>overalls and helmet on their head and carrying big guns

0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:18.400
<v Speaker 1>and they think, Okay, these guys are just one dimensional,

0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:19.760
<v Speaker 1>but it's so far from the truth.

0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:23.360
<v Speaker 2>Oh absolutely, And like over here, we're our Special Tactics Group,

0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:26.079
<v Speaker 2>are our full time tactical team. But for years it's

0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:28.640
<v Speaker 2>slightly changed. Now we've got this new tactical response model

0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:32.360
<v Speaker 2>where you can be a full time operator but not

0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:34.720
<v Speaker 2>a the STG. But for so long at the arm

0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:38.480
<v Speaker 2>Offender Squad and that was of part timers, so you

0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:41.400
<v Speaker 2>had your day job, so you know, they'd be working

0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:43.960
<v Speaker 2>with you in the CIB one day and you could

0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:45.800
<v Speaker 2>be at a job with them and they're in their

0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:49.240
<v Speaker 2>black gear and yeah, you're so right, like some of

0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:52.880
<v Speaker 2>the questions in serious crime briefings that coming from those

0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:56.760
<v Speaker 2>aoskuys sitting there and man, I don't even consider that,

0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:00.920
<v Speaker 2>And I'm supposed to be running this show. Why do

0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:03.800
<v Speaker 2>you ask me that I hadn't even thought about that? So, yeah, absolutely,

0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:06.400
<v Speaker 2>what a diverse group of guys and girls.

0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:11.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, policing the academy, where were you first stationed and

0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:14.960
<v Speaker 1>your academy experience. And then I think it's always interesting

0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:18.000
<v Speaker 1>in guests, no matter where their careers progressed in the policing,

0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:21.840
<v Speaker 1>there's always something that's embedded in their mind from the

0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:24.520
<v Speaker 1>early times in their policing because it's quite confronting when

0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:26.240
<v Speaker 1>you walk out of the academy and you wear a

0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:29.840
<v Speaker 1>new uniform and you're actually a police officer. What were

0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:32.080
<v Speaker 1>you What were your memories of coming out of the

0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:33.920
<v Speaker 1>academy and hitting the streets.

0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:39.160
<v Speaker 2>Just getting thrown into it. Really, my memory is I

0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:42.880
<v Speaker 2>had no idea what was going on. Leis College was

0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:45.960
<v Speaker 2>five months and I loved that right coming out of

0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:49.400
<v Speaker 2>the army. It was like a holiday in terms of

0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:54.000
<v Speaker 2>the residential accommodation and how the days went, and people

0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:56.640
<v Speaker 2>that had never experienced that before. It was quite a

0:14:56.640 --> 0:14:59.960
<v Speaker 2>foreign environment for sure, But for me, I just love

0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:04.040
<v Speaker 2>every second of it and just the camaraderie of it.

0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:06.840
<v Speaker 2>It was awesome. But I popped out the end just going, actually,

0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:08.840
<v Speaker 2>so how do we do this again? Because the way

0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:11.960
<v Speaker 2>that we were taught was, and no one's fault at all.

0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:14.400
<v Speaker 2>You've got to be taught some really important stuff at college.

0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:16.720
<v Speaker 2>You've got to be taught how to affect and arrest

0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:20.320
<v Speaker 2>legally and I guess look after yourself and your mates,

0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:23.200
<v Speaker 2>so how to use all those tactical options, and that's

0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:25.840
<v Speaker 2>probably the core stuff. So you get pumped full of

0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:27.560
<v Speaker 2>that for five months, you pop out, and then you

0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:31.440
<v Speaker 2>go you're going to domestics, talking to people that have

0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:33.240
<v Speaker 2>been married for forty years that have had an argument.

0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:35.680
<v Speaker 2>You're going what I supposed to do here? So those

0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:40.600
<v Speaker 2>earlier years coming out were it was just a constant abuse,

0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:43.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, because I looked ten years old. You know

0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:46.160
<v Speaker 2>what was this bring your kid to work day?

0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:51.000
<v Speaker 1>Just constantly Yeah you on the yeah exactly.

0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:55.960
<v Speaker 2>So just finding your feet, bridging that gap between college

0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:58.320
<v Speaker 2>and all the really important stuff they have to teach

0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:02.040
<v Speaker 2>you and baptism. Fire out there on the street, learning

0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:04.920
<v Speaker 2>by doing, and I guess ballsing a few things up

0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:07.760
<v Speaker 2>on the way, learning from the people you're dealing with

0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:08.480
<v Speaker 2>in your colleagues.

0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:11.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you do get thrown in the deep end. And

0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:14.280
<v Speaker 1>I caution people when they see police make a mistake that,

0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:17.400
<v Speaker 1>you know, within six months of me being out of

0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:20.400
<v Speaker 1>the academy, I would as a senior person on the car.

0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:24.160
<v Speaker 1>So I'm the one making the decisions. And sometimes you're

0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:26.240
<v Speaker 1>looking at people and they've got a uniform on. Then

0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:29.000
<v Speaker 1>you think they've got all this experience and they're just yeah,

0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:30.320
<v Speaker 1>babes in the woods.

0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:33.560
<v Speaker 2>Really, Oh yeah, I've got so much respect now, you know,

0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:36.000
<v Speaker 2>Like people hang around for a while and then you move.

0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:38.000
<v Speaker 2>You know, you might join the CIB or a technical

0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:39.880
<v Speaker 2>group career. But I look back now and I look

0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:42.440
<v Speaker 2>at how it's even changed in the nineteen years since

0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:44.760
<v Speaker 2>I came out of college, and man, I've got so

0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:47.040
<v Speaker 2>much respect for the guys and girls on the front

0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:49.880
<v Speaker 2>line now. Just decisions they have to make now I

0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:55.160
<v Speaker 2>just go far out. Yeah, it's just completely changed. And

0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:57.360
<v Speaker 2>they're doing it with only a couple of months on

0:16:57.400 --> 0:16:59.760
<v Speaker 2>the street after college as well. It's incredible.

0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:03.040
<v Speaker 1>And I think there's more accountability now with social media,

0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:06.080
<v Speaker 1>Like if we made a mistake. I know, when I

0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:10.480
<v Speaker 1>went through the early stages of policing, it wasn't held

0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:13.399
<v Speaker 1>up to public ridicule. It was someone would pull you

0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:15.320
<v Speaker 1>aside and go, no, that's not how we do this,

0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:18.520
<v Speaker 1>and you learn on the job. Now if you make

0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:23.680
<v Speaker 1>a mistake, you become a TikTok sensation and yeah, you're humiliated.

0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:25.280
<v Speaker 1>There's a lot of pressure.

0:17:25.359 --> 0:17:27.399
<v Speaker 2>Totally, and and I sort of sit on the fence

0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:29.320
<v Speaker 2>there because I go, you know, we don't want to

0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:32.920
<v Speaker 2>go the way of Russia. So you know, having intrusive

0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:37.840
<v Speaker 2>scrutiny and criticism of enforcement as fantastic and we should.

0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:40.919
<v Speaker 2>But on the other hand, you go. Yeah, like just

0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:44.159
<v Speaker 2>sick and guessing themselves all the time, because if someone's filming,

0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:45.920
<v Speaker 2>are they going well, if that little bit got taken

0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:48.800
<v Speaker 2>out of context, that's going to look bad. Yeah, what

0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:51.200
<v Speaker 2>a crazy twenty first century world.

0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:54.640
<v Speaker 1>I don't mind the accountability. Like the police, we need

0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:57.720
<v Speaker 1>to be accountable, but there also needs to be a

0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:01.080
<v Speaker 1>level of putting in perspective and understand the context of

0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:05.080
<v Speaker 1>what's happening, like when they see someone yelling at someone,

0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:07.280
<v Speaker 1>they don't know what the lead up to that has been.

0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:10.880
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, there's still as police, we've got to work

0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:14.680
<v Speaker 1>within the parameters that were allowed to But yeah, accountability, yes,

0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:18.240
<v Speaker 1>but also let's give a little bit of latitude understanding

0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:20.200
<v Speaker 1>that people are learning to do their job as well.

0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:23.320
<v Speaker 2>That's right and perspective, right, Like where I came out

0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:24.879
<v Speaker 2>of college, you know, there are only a couple of

0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:28.160
<v Speaker 2>frontline cars out on a night shift. You know, sometimes

0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:30.440
<v Speaker 2>you just have to get the job done quickly because

0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:33.560
<v Speaker 2>you've got ten other more important jobs waiting. So you

0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:36.480
<v Speaker 2>might say something that on reflection, you know, looks bad,

0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:38.840
<v Speaker 2>but you just kind of move on to the next

0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:41.720
<v Speaker 2>most important thing. And that that's just stuff that people

0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:42.480
<v Speaker 2>don't see you know.

0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:46.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what how long did you stay in uniform before

0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:48.000
<v Speaker 1>you went into playing clothes?

0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:52.600
<v Speaker 2>Not very long, so there's only three years for me,

0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:56.159
<v Speaker 2>And it was around about that time where it was

0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:59.480
<v Speaker 2>becoming more common to go quicker. But you know, there

0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:01.879
<v Speaker 2>was definitely a list on the whiteboard of the d

0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:04.119
<v Speaker 2>S and you know, you were ninth cab off the

0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:05.400
<v Speaker 2>rank and it was going to take you a couple

0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:08.000
<v Speaker 2>of years to get there. So it was just at

0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:10.119
<v Speaker 2>the turning point of that. So I was quite lucky

0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:13.320
<v Speaker 2>I got into that to a playing clothes volume crime

0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:16.200
<v Speaker 2>drug squad that was not down to me at all.

0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:18.840
<v Speaker 2>There's a couple of guys there that vouched for me,

0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:21.240
<v Speaker 2>and I landed that gig. And then there that was

0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:23.280
<v Speaker 2>sort of the stepping stone. Everyone that was on that

0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:27.040
<v Speaker 2>team got sort of encouraged to join the CIB. So

0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:30.119
<v Speaker 2>I just didn't really have any desire even then, but

0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:31.760
<v Speaker 2>just sort of got swept up in that and went

0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:32.520
<v Speaker 2>along for the ride.

0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:35.359
<v Speaker 1>And what did you find that something must have triggered

0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:38.880
<v Speaker 1>your interest in working in COB What was it that

0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:42.520
<v Speaker 1>you found interesting about that aspect of pleasing Yeah, I.

0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:45.199
<v Speaker 2>Guess I started to like what I initially didn't. When

0:19:45.240 --> 0:19:47.760
<v Speaker 2>I was in the uniform. You know, you walk past

0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:50.200
<v Speaker 2>the interview suite and you'd see the detectives and you'd go,

0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:53.440
<v Speaker 2>that sounds horrible. I don't want to be sitting into

0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:56.439
<v Speaker 2>your room for hours. Or you'd be standing on a

0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:59.040
<v Speaker 2>corner in a crime scene and the poor detectives are

0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:02.240
<v Speaker 2>in there for days, and you'd go, I love my job,

0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:05.439
<v Speaker 2>just going job to job, job. And it wasn't until

0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:08.679
<v Speaker 2>on that plane, closed unit, just sitting down talking to

0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:12.320
<v Speaker 2>Irisi arrested and just going, well, there's so much more

0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:15.560
<v Speaker 2>to this, and this isn't black and white, this is gray.

0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:18.600
<v Speaker 2>And I think it was just dealing with people for

0:20:18.760 --> 0:20:22.560
<v Speaker 2>longer periods of time, which, okay, this is actually what

0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:26.520
<v Speaker 2>the CIB is about. We're actually spending more time doing

0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:29.280
<v Speaker 2>the same things so that we get that better chance

0:20:29.320 --> 0:20:31.320
<v Speaker 2>of a good outcome. And I think that's where I

0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:34.480
<v Speaker 2>sort of had that light bulb moment and went, Okay,

0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:36.960
<v Speaker 2>this just makes sense. Now I'm going to get better

0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:39.639
<v Speaker 2>at my job if I go down this pathway, whether

0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:42.119
<v Speaker 2>I circle back to uniform or not. So yeah, it

0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:43.040
<v Speaker 2>was sort of a no brainer.

0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:46.440
<v Speaker 1>We had had a chat a week or so ago

0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:49.840
<v Speaker 1>and you were talking about one case that you got

0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:52.800
<v Speaker 1>called to called out to a murder and you didn't

0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:54.879
<v Speaker 1>have many details and you had to speak to the

0:20:55.040 --> 0:20:58.320
<v Speaker 1>suspect then custody. Tell me what you learned about that

0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:01.159
<v Speaker 1>particular matter, and that sort of change your view on

0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:04.080
<v Speaker 1>what's important in that interview room. You were talking about

0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:07.399
<v Speaker 1>interview rooms. What was that case? What were the circumstances there?

0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:09.720
<v Speaker 1>Because I found that fascinating when you were telling me.

0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:13.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so there must have been about around about twenty twelve,

0:21:13.440 --> 0:21:17.800
<v Speaker 2>I think or just after, but a lady called Jasmine

0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:21.280
<v Speaker 2>Cooper got killed up in Tahana, which is a little

0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:24.800
<v Speaker 2>town right at the north northern boundary of Auckland. I

0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:28.800
<v Speaker 2>guess before you head into Northland. And I've just come

0:21:28.840 --> 0:21:32.600
<v Speaker 2>off a advanced interviewing course and that had taught us

0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:35.719
<v Speaker 2>a lot about sort of folks zeroing in on forgetting

0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:40.720
<v Speaker 2>about the wider pressures of homicide investigations and court and

0:21:40.760 --> 0:21:42.840
<v Speaker 2>who's going to be watching and all that kind of stuff,

0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:45.800
<v Speaker 2>and it's focusing it and all an interviewers as a

0:21:45.800 --> 0:21:49.280
<v Speaker 2>conversation with someone else, you don't have to know everything

0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:52.800
<v Speaker 2>before you go into it. And that was another light

0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:55.600
<v Speaker 2>bulb moment for me, and I think even to this day,

0:21:56.040 --> 0:21:59.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, by and large, policing hasn't caught up with that.

0:21:59.440 --> 0:21:59.560
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:21:59.720 --> 0:22:02.560
<v Speaker 2>It's there's so much pressure to do the tick box

0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:06.080
<v Speaker 2>one to twenty steps in a robotic fashion because that's

0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:09.040
<v Speaker 2>the way, that the easiest way to teach it. Yeah,

0:22:09.119 --> 0:22:11.040
<v Speaker 2>and we go, I don't know anything about this. How

0:22:11.080 --> 0:22:13.560
<v Speaker 2>am I gonna get his free recall and write all

0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:15.400
<v Speaker 2>my questions down and make sure I asked them right

0:22:16.000 --> 0:22:17.760
<v Speaker 2>that With this one, I couldn't even do a plan

0:22:18.000 --> 0:22:20.240
<v Speaker 2>because I don't know anything about it. So I get this.

0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:23.720
<v Speaker 2>I'm asleep and I get a call from the DC

0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:25.280
<v Speaker 2>here and he just goes, you see, to go up

0:22:25.280 --> 0:22:27.399
<v Speaker 2>to Tihana And I'm like, cool, where's that And he's like,

0:22:27.520 --> 0:22:30.639
<v Speaker 2>it's about an hour and a bit north. The guys

0:22:30.640 --> 0:22:34.520
<v Speaker 2>have locked him up, so he's in the cells. Run assault,

0:22:34.880 --> 0:22:36.879
<v Speaker 2>but that's it, and he's been in the cell for

0:22:36.920 --> 0:22:39.879
<v Speaker 2>about an hour. He says, just go up and interview him.

0:22:40.520 --> 0:22:43.560
<v Speaker 2>And I'm like, on what, well he's he's killed his

0:22:43.600 --> 0:22:45.600
<v Speaker 2>ex partner and I'm going, oh, has he Well, we

0:22:45.640 --> 0:22:49.720
<v Speaker 2>don't even know. So we race up there thinking it

0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:53.200
<v Speaker 2>over and get up there and there's nothing to go on,

0:22:53.680 --> 0:22:55.680
<v Speaker 2>so we just stuff that, let's just go and then

0:22:55.720 --> 0:22:56.960
<v Speaker 2>have a chat to him, because we're gonna have to

0:22:56.960 --> 0:22:59.679
<v Speaker 2>do that anyway. That's exactly what we did, and we

0:22:59.760 --> 0:23:02.199
<v Speaker 2>just talkalked about nothing for a couple of hours in

0:23:02.240 --> 0:23:05.000
<v Speaker 2>the interview room because there was nothing I knew about

0:23:05.000 --> 0:23:08.040
<v Speaker 2>the case to raise. He denied it all, of course,

0:23:08.160 --> 0:23:11.280
<v Speaker 2>and after a couple of hours he just sits there

0:23:11.280 --> 0:23:12.879
<v Speaker 2>and he just goes, well, you know, I guess I

0:23:12.920 --> 0:23:15.800
<v Speaker 2>should probably tell you the truth now, and then he

0:23:15.840 --> 0:23:18.480
<v Speaker 2>gives us a blow by blow of the entire incident,

0:23:19.200 --> 0:23:23.760
<v Speaker 2>absolute tragic family harm argument that his anger got the

0:23:23.760 --> 0:23:27.480
<v Speaker 2>better of him and and he's killed his ex partner

0:23:27.600 --> 0:23:30.640
<v Speaker 2>and gave it an incredible detail. And I walked away

0:23:30.640 --> 0:23:33.680
<v Speaker 2>from that just going, we really need to get better

0:23:33.920 --> 0:23:37.520
<v Speaker 2>at trying, you know, rather than just sort of going, oh,

0:23:37.520 --> 0:23:39.080
<v Speaker 2>you don't want to make a statement, do you, and

0:23:39.119 --> 0:23:41.720
<v Speaker 2>then walking away, which I think there is a little

0:23:41.680 --> 0:23:44.040
<v Speaker 2>bit these days because there's so much pressure and a

0:23:44.080 --> 0:23:47.080
<v Speaker 2>million things to do, it's just actually going I can

0:23:47.119 --> 0:23:49.760
<v Speaker 2>just sit with this person and just chat unless it

0:23:49.840 --> 0:23:51.680
<v Speaker 2>goes and if they're going to sit in the room

0:23:51.720 --> 0:23:54.400
<v Speaker 2>with me and chat hey, happy days. Who knows whether

0:23:54.440 --> 0:23:57.160
<v Speaker 2>that's going to lead to getting any kind of truth

0:23:57.160 --> 0:23:59.159
<v Speaker 2>out of them, but we'll give it a go, and

0:23:59.520 --> 0:24:01.040
<v Speaker 2>you just never know where that's going to lead. So

0:24:01.080 --> 0:24:03.359
<v Speaker 2>that taught me that as don't be too quick just

0:24:03.400 --> 0:24:05.760
<v Speaker 2>to shoot yourself on the foot and say, I don't

0:24:05.760 --> 0:24:07.719
<v Speaker 2>really have much to say here, let's go.

0:24:08.200 --> 0:24:11.560
<v Speaker 1>I think a couple of points that you've made there,

0:24:11.640 --> 0:24:13.720
<v Speaker 1>just the fact that you prepared to sit down and

0:24:13.760 --> 0:24:17.320
<v Speaker 1>chat with someone and get that rapport happening. Get them

0:24:17.359 --> 0:24:19.760
<v Speaker 1>to feel comfortable, because someone feels comfortable if you just

0:24:20.200 --> 0:24:23.080
<v Speaker 1>especially you're in an interview room, sit down, just have

0:24:23.200 --> 0:24:25.760
<v Speaker 1>a conversation. You can talk on the proof of stuff

0:24:26.240 --> 0:24:29.240
<v Speaker 1>and all that, let them feel comfortable and you start

0:24:29.280 --> 0:24:33.760
<v Speaker 1>to get that relationship that develops relationship. People get shocked

0:24:33.840 --> 0:24:36.840
<v Speaker 1>by what do you mean relationship? I think if you're

0:24:36.880 --> 0:24:39.440
<v Speaker 1>in a room with someone long enough for a relationship

0:24:39.480 --> 0:24:42.679
<v Speaker 1>of what context of a relationship? Who knows who cares?

0:24:42.960 --> 0:24:47.240
<v Speaker 1>But a relationship, a connection occurs. I saw a lot

0:24:47.240 --> 0:24:51.160
<v Speaker 1>of cops as you identified there, so they're not going

0:24:51.200 --> 0:24:53.920
<v Speaker 1>to talk, not going to try. And I would see

0:24:53.960 --> 0:24:57.040
<v Speaker 1>people that I looked up to mentors of mine in

0:24:57.160 --> 0:24:59.440
<v Speaker 1>the way that they operated in the interview room. And

0:24:59.440 --> 0:25:03.320
<v Speaker 1>I'd like to to think I did it myself throughout

0:25:03.359 --> 0:25:05.600
<v Speaker 1>my career or a latter part of my career, where

0:25:05.640 --> 0:25:08.680
<v Speaker 1>I'd go into the interview room and walk out and go, yeah,

0:25:08.840 --> 0:25:11.919
<v Speaker 1>they've confessed, and people think what's gone on in the

0:25:11.920 --> 0:25:15.080
<v Speaker 1>interview room? They look like you've done something wrong and

0:25:15.480 --> 0:25:19.360
<v Speaker 1>invariably sitting down talking And I also say to people this,

0:25:19.440 --> 0:25:21.479
<v Speaker 1>So I think there's a lot of confessions come on

0:25:21.520 --> 0:25:24.800
<v Speaker 1>this basis. Think of the worst thing you've ever done

0:25:25.320 --> 0:25:27.679
<v Speaker 1>and holding that just on your own. You want to

0:25:27.680 --> 0:25:29.920
<v Speaker 1>tell someone, you want to get it off your chest.

0:25:30.240 --> 0:25:33.240
<v Speaker 1>Quite often, I found that people made confessions in the

0:25:33.760 --> 0:25:37.119
<v Speaker 1>interview room because they wanted to unburden themselves with what

0:25:37.240 --> 0:25:41.119
<v Speaker 1>they were trying to hide. So, yeah, it's amazing what

0:25:41.320 --> 0:25:43.240
<v Speaker 1>can come out of the interview room if you're prepared

0:25:43.240 --> 0:25:43.760
<v Speaker 1>to sit there.

0:25:44.359 --> 0:25:47.439
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, and you know there's so much focus on and rightly,

0:25:47.520 --> 0:25:51.960
<v Speaker 2>so there's hyper focus on all the safeguards these days,

0:25:52.040 --> 0:25:55.679
<v Speaker 2>right and that police have screwed it up for so

0:25:55.800 --> 0:26:01.760
<v Speaker 2>many years and interviewed illegally, appressively, unfeeling. Now we have

0:26:01.800 --> 0:26:05.880
<v Speaker 2>a wealth of guidance on how to do it right.

0:26:06.080 --> 0:26:08.680
<v Speaker 2>And there's so much of that and that all has

0:26:08.720 --> 0:26:12.439
<v Speaker 2>to be taught that they don't actually teach how to

0:26:12.440 --> 0:26:16.919
<v Speaker 2>actually have the conversation like a normal person. Everyone's so

0:26:17.080 --> 0:26:20.679
<v Speaker 2>focused on robotically doing the rights and the room set up,

0:26:20.680 --> 0:26:22.399
<v Speaker 2>and I'm going through this list and I've got my

0:26:22.480 --> 0:26:24.240
<v Speaker 2>interview plan and this is going to trial, and the

0:26:24.320 --> 0:26:26.879
<v Speaker 2>holy hell people are going to watch me, and I

0:26:26.920 --> 0:26:29.720
<v Speaker 2>need to make sure that I, you know, the offender

0:26:29.800 --> 0:26:32.960
<v Speaker 2>is bad because cops occurred, and there's black and white

0:26:33.000 --> 0:26:35.360
<v Speaker 2>and that's what the jury is going to think, and

0:26:36.200 --> 0:26:39.000
<v Speaker 2>all of that stuff just colors the whole interview. And

0:26:39.600 --> 0:26:42.399
<v Speaker 2>it's just like, you can do all that stuff and

0:26:42.520 --> 0:26:47.000
<v Speaker 2>still just actually have a normal conversation without judgment, and

0:26:47.040 --> 0:26:51.720
<v Speaker 2>then the conversation starts flowing. And that's that's what needs

0:26:51.760 --> 0:26:53.960
<v Speaker 2>to change in the in the training side of things,

0:26:54.920 --> 0:26:59.920
<v Speaker 2>it's just be yourself, be normal, and there's no tricks

0:27:00.119 --> 0:27:00.639
<v Speaker 2>involved in it.

0:27:00.960 --> 0:27:04.200
<v Speaker 1>It's human nature. It allow human nature. Some of the

0:27:04.760 --> 0:27:07.359
<v Speaker 1>preambles we had to read on before the recording. It

0:27:07.400 --> 0:27:10.919
<v Speaker 1>evolved over the years because when recording came in, the

0:27:11.040 --> 0:27:14.880
<v Speaker 1>electronic recording of interviews, but sometimes you'd have to you'd

0:27:14.880 --> 0:27:17.720
<v Speaker 1>sit there and you'd read out a page verbatim and

0:27:17.760 --> 0:27:19.720
<v Speaker 1>you see the person seeing there going what's going on?

0:27:19.760 --> 0:27:21.440
<v Speaker 1>And it was hard to explain even what you were

0:27:21.440 --> 0:27:23.520
<v Speaker 1>reading out. There were so many do you agree with this?

0:27:23.600 --> 0:27:27.280
<v Speaker 1>And this? And it was just it was crazy. But yes,

0:27:27.400 --> 0:27:31.040
<v Speaker 1>I think, and I'd like to put everything in front

0:27:31.080 --> 0:27:33.960
<v Speaker 1>of the jury, you know, when it's said and done.

0:27:34.119 --> 0:27:37.720
<v Speaker 1>Put it all in front, not this sanitized version of Okay,

0:27:38.240 --> 0:27:40.359
<v Speaker 1>this is what said, and I am now going to

0:27:40.400 --> 0:27:42.800
<v Speaker 1>caution you. Yeah, we get that, you've got to put

0:27:42.800 --> 0:27:45.240
<v Speaker 1>the caution in and you've got to protect people's rights,

0:27:45.280 --> 0:27:48.040
<v Speaker 1>but let people see what actually goes on and then

0:27:48.119 --> 0:27:51.600
<v Speaker 1>form their own views from whether it was oppressive like

0:27:51.720 --> 0:27:55.520
<v Speaker 1>in New South Wales. You no threat, promise or inducement.

0:27:55.800 --> 0:27:59.400
<v Speaker 1>I understand that, but sitting talking to someone can't really

0:27:59.400 --> 0:28:01.880
<v Speaker 1>fit into the threat, promise or inducement. You're just having

0:28:01.920 --> 0:28:05.080
<v Speaker 1>a conversation with a person. The other point that you

0:28:05.240 --> 0:28:10.119
<v Speaker 1>made that the way interviewing is people are taught to interview,

0:28:10.280 --> 0:28:13.440
<v Speaker 1>like the list of questions, a series of questions. Mistakes

0:28:13.440 --> 0:28:17.159
<v Speaker 1>I've seen made when I'm observing someone doing and I

0:28:17.240 --> 0:28:20.359
<v Speaker 1>probably did it myself. You'll have your twenty questions that

0:28:20.400 --> 0:28:22.959
<v Speaker 1>you want to get out. I'm sitting here asking you

0:28:23.000 --> 0:28:25.760
<v Speaker 1>and I'm just I've asked that question. I've asked that question,

0:28:26.000 --> 0:28:28.879
<v Speaker 1>but you've probably given an ambiguous answer that means nothing

0:28:28.880 --> 0:28:31.280
<v Speaker 1>when it comes to court anyway. You've got to actually

0:28:31.400 --> 0:28:34.920
<v Speaker 1>listen to what the person is saying and then expand

0:28:34.960 --> 0:28:37.359
<v Speaker 1>on it if you need to expand on it or clarify.

0:28:37.640 --> 0:28:41.160
<v Speaker 2>So that's right, and being comfortable like going around in

0:28:41.240 --> 0:28:43.880
<v Speaker 2>circles and coming back to things, you know, like that

0:28:44.240 --> 0:28:47.600
<v Speaker 2>Peace model of interviewing is fantastic. What a great guy.

0:28:47.800 --> 0:28:50.840
<v Speaker 2>And you get the free recall first, then you ask

0:28:50.880 --> 0:28:53.280
<v Speaker 2>some questions you want to ask, and then it gets

0:28:53.320 --> 0:28:56.640
<v Speaker 2>a bit more adversarial towards the end. But you know,

0:28:56.680 --> 0:28:58.520
<v Speaker 2>you can get caught up and the questions you want

0:28:58.560 --> 0:29:00.640
<v Speaker 2>to ask and you go, we got that one out,

0:29:00.680 --> 0:29:03.600
<v Speaker 2>let's move on to the next. And in person you're

0:29:03.640 --> 0:29:08.280
<v Speaker 2>interviewing introduces something from left field. You know, you go, well,

0:29:08.320 --> 0:29:11.000
<v Speaker 2>that doesn't compete with my plan. Not shut up enough

0:29:11.000 --> 0:29:13.400
<v Speaker 2>about that, I want to do my thing, and actually

0:29:13.440 --> 0:29:16.760
<v Speaker 2>you're just killing the conversation. And people just need to

0:29:16.760 --> 0:29:18.560
<v Speaker 2>be comfortable going, yeah, I'm going to go wherever you

0:29:18.640 --> 0:29:20.040
<v Speaker 2>take me if you want to talk about that one

0:29:20.080 --> 0:29:22.880
<v Speaker 2>hundred percent, let's talk about that. Mother doesn't matter. I

0:29:22.880 --> 0:29:26.520
<v Speaker 2>can come back to that latter. I joined the police

0:29:26.600 --> 0:29:28.480
<v Speaker 2>knowing it's going to be like this, so I shouldn't

0:29:28.880 --> 0:29:30.400
<v Speaker 2>bock off, you know, five minutes ago.

0:29:31.280 --> 0:29:34.600
<v Speaker 1>And I was given some good advice very early in

0:29:34.600 --> 0:29:37.920
<v Speaker 1>that you come into the interview room, you control the

0:29:37.960 --> 0:29:40.480
<v Speaker 1>pace of the interview room because you see some interviews

0:29:40.520 --> 0:29:43.680
<v Speaker 1>go off track and it's like the cops are losing

0:29:43.720 --> 0:29:46.440
<v Speaker 1>their way and oh, this is not going the plan.

0:29:46.560 --> 0:29:50.400
<v Speaker 1>You see it falling apart. You can stop the interview.

0:29:50.560 --> 0:29:52.920
<v Speaker 1>I'm just going to take a break now, step outside

0:29:52.960 --> 0:29:55.040
<v Speaker 1>and have a rethink about what the strategies are that

0:29:55.080 --> 0:29:58.880
<v Speaker 1>you get the approach. But I, from my point of view,

0:29:58.960 --> 0:30:01.480
<v Speaker 1>that was one of the most interesting parts of policing.

0:30:01.560 --> 0:30:03.640
<v Speaker 1>I love love the interview room. The pressure was on,

0:30:04.000 --> 0:30:06.280
<v Speaker 1>but I did love the interview room because quite often

0:30:06.320 --> 0:30:09.160
<v Speaker 1>you'd be on a lengthy investigation and it was all

0:30:09.240 --> 0:30:11.719
<v Speaker 1>coming to the crunch in the next six or so

0:30:11.840 --> 0:30:14.560
<v Speaker 1>hours that you spending the interview room speaking to the person.

0:30:14.840 --> 0:30:16.920
<v Speaker 1>So fascinating area of policing.

0:30:17.040 --> 0:30:20.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, one hundred percent something I still really enjoy. You know,

0:30:20.400 --> 0:30:23.200
<v Speaker 2>it's just being able to sit in that room with

0:30:23.280 --> 0:30:26.920
<v Speaker 2>someone and just go whatever reasons that we're here talking.

0:30:27.240 --> 0:30:30.200
<v Speaker 2>You know, that single reason doesn't color your whole life,

0:30:30.320 --> 0:30:32.800
<v Speaker 2>you know. And I'm happy to sit in that room

0:30:32.920 --> 0:30:35.400
<v Speaker 2>and get to know somebody and all of the good

0:30:35.400 --> 0:30:37.120
<v Speaker 2>parts of their life as well as the reason we

0:30:37.280 --> 0:30:39.560
<v Speaker 2>hear and not have fear that I'm going to be

0:30:39.640 --> 0:30:43.200
<v Speaker 2>judged harshly by the public for looking like I'm having

0:30:43.760 --> 0:30:48.440
<v Speaker 2>a nice conversation with a murderer. Right, we should feel

0:30:48.480 --> 0:30:51.320
<v Speaker 2>that pressure there. We're still doing our job, but we

0:30:51.400 --> 0:30:53.760
<v Speaker 2>don't be a complete dick to the person we're sitting

0:30:53.760 --> 0:30:54.720
<v Speaker 2>across the table from.

0:30:54.800 --> 0:30:57.080
<v Speaker 1>Well, I've got it. Well, i'll save it. But I've

0:30:57.080 --> 0:30:58.560
<v Speaker 1>got a quote that I've pulled out of some of

0:30:58.560 --> 0:31:01.479
<v Speaker 1>the material I've got on of what you've said about

0:31:01.600 --> 0:31:03.520
<v Speaker 1>the way that you look at policing them the way

0:31:03.600 --> 0:31:06.480
<v Speaker 1>it should be approached. It'll touch on what you're talking

0:31:06.480 --> 0:31:09.320
<v Speaker 1>about there, because it's it might be considered a fairly

0:31:09.440 --> 0:31:12.640
<v Speaker 1>liberal view of a police officer to say, yeah, oh, well,

0:31:12.680 --> 0:31:15.560
<v Speaker 1>I'm not going to judge judge the person, and but

0:31:16.480 --> 0:31:18.920
<v Speaker 1>you're doing your job and I think you get better results.

0:31:18.920 --> 0:31:20.920
<v Speaker 1>But we'll explore that a little bit a little bit

0:31:20.960 --> 0:31:25.120
<v Speaker 1>further in the in the podcast Criminal Informants. Did you

0:31:25.120 --> 0:31:27.400
<v Speaker 1>get to work with a lot of criminal informants in

0:31:27.440 --> 0:31:29.160
<v Speaker 1>your COB days.

0:31:29.760 --> 0:31:32.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, definitely, And it's part of a part of the

0:31:32.120 --> 0:31:35.840
<v Speaker 2>business for the CIV right, And most of the time

0:31:35.840 --> 0:31:39.280
<v Speaker 2>it just falls naturally out of doing your job, and

0:31:39.360 --> 0:31:41.880
<v Speaker 2>it's that having a normal conversation, like we were just

0:31:41.920 --> 0:31:45.000
<v Speaker 2>talking about. So if you go to every search warrant

0:31:45.040 --> 0:31:47.800
<v Speaker 2>and every person your arrests and you're a complete deck,

0:31:48.520 --> 0:31:50.520
<v Speaker 2>they're not going to want to talk to you again. Yeah,

0:31:50.560 --> 0:31:53.560
<v Speaker 2>but it's just normal and you do your job, but

0:31:53.640 --> 0:31:56.680
<v Speaker 2>you're you're fair and you're reasonable, and then you find

0:31:56.680 --> 0:31:59.800
<v Speaker 2>when you run into those people again, which you often.

0:31:59.520 --> 0:32:01.040
<v Speaker 1>Do, yeah, invariably.

0:32:01.160 --> 0:32:03.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's right, you feel like you know them and

0:32:03.120 --> 0:32:04.680
<v Speaker 2>they feel like they know you a bit as well.

0:32:04.760 --> 0:32:07.160
<v Speaker 2>So then the conversation starts and that's just kind of

0:32:07.200 --> 0:32:10.440
<v Speaker 2>like part two of what you'd kept off earlier, and

0:32:10.520 --> 0:32:13.840
<v Speaker 2>so naturally a lot of those interactions would develop into

0:32:14.840 --> 0:32:18.200
<v Speaker 2>informant relationships. Yeah, and that's the way it's been for

0:32:18.280 --> 0:32:20.560
<v Speaker 2>decades usually, that's how it works in the CIBA.

0:32:20.920 --> 0:32:24.120
<v Speaker 1>Had any interesting informants if you've dealt with informants, you

0:32:24.120 --> 0:32:26.560
<v Speaker 1>would have had some interesting ones that turn your life

0:32:26.640 --> 0:32:30.160
<v Speaker 1>upside down, because it's sort of I describe it as

0:32:30.280 --> 0:32:33.880
<v Speaker 1>almost like a marriage or relationship when you're dealing with

0:32:33.920 --> 0:32:37.720
<v Speaker 1>an informant and whatever problems the informant has in their

0:32:37.760 --> 0:32:41.600
<v Speaker 1>life apparently you're responsible for and you're getting these late

0:32:41.680 --> 0:32:45.720
<v Speaker 1>night calls. Have you experience that without identifying the informant? Oh?

0:32:45.800 --> 0:32:48.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, of course, right, And it's partly because you know

0:32:48.520 --> 0:32:52.520
<v Speaker 2>you're rooting for these people, you know, and you feel

0:32:52.560 --> 0:32:57.680
<v Speaker 2>really I always used to feel really humble taking those

0:32:58.120 --> 0:33:01.000
<v Speaker 2>because I go, man, I've got a simpler existence and

0:33:01.560 --> 0:33:04.120
<v Speaker 2>I don't have much to complain about, really, and you're

0:33:04.160 --> 0:33:07.640
<v Speaker 2>talking to these people who their lives are so complicated,

0:33:07.800 --> 0:33:10.520
<v Speaker 2>and you just I couldn't even function if I was

0:33:10.560 --> 0:33:14.400
<v Speaker 2>living your life, and so yeah, and trying to do

0:33:14.520 --> 0:33:17.040
<v Speaker 2>right by them. And as a result, Yeah, you're taking

0:33:17.120 --> 0:33:22.160
<v Speaker 2>those calls late at night and listening to their whole life,

0:33:22.280 --> 0:33:25.600
<v Speaker 2>isn't it. That's what because you're in it. You're in

0:33:25.640 --> 0:33:28.240
<v Speaker 2>it with them their whole life. You're not just there

0:33:28.320 --> 0:33:30.080
<v Speaker 2>to listen to what they have to say about whatever

0:33:30.120 --> 0:33:33.400
<v Speaker 2>it is you might be interested in. You're invested, and

0:33:33.480 --> 0:33:36.920
<v Speaker 2>so when they're sick, you're listening to it and you're

0:33:36.960 --> 0:33:39.320
<v Speaker 2>trying to talk them through it. If they're fighting with

0:33:39.400 --> 0:33:42.680
<v Speaker 2>their partner, you're trying to talk them through it. And yeah,

0:33:42.680 --> 0:33:43.720
<v Speaker 2>it's full on.

0:33:43.920 --> 0:33:47.200
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Well I get you. You understand that because quite

0:33:47.280 --> 0:33:52.120
<v Speaker 1>often and a lot of my investigations involved informants. And yeah,

0:33:52.160 --> 0:33:55.600
<v Speaker 1>the defense quite rightly when the matter goes to court,

0:33:55.680 --> 0:33:58.760
<v Speaker 1>the tax of relationship with the informant and you know,

0:33:58.840 --> 0:34:01.440
<v Speaker 1>did you offer a discount their senses? Did you offer

0:34:01.440 --> 0:34:03.320
<v Speaker 1>them money, did you do this? Did you do that?

0:34:03.840 --> 0:34:07.440
<v Speaker 1>What they didn't understand and what defense never got through. No,

0:34:07.600 --> 0:34:10.200
<v Speaker 1>I just treated the person with respect because they were

0:34:10.239 --> 0:34:13.399
<v Speaker 1>confused as to why is this person doing what they're

0:34:13.400 --> 0:34:18.280
<v Speaker 1>doing most occasions, in the serious situations, putting their lives

0:34:18.280 --> 0:34:22.040
<v Speaker 1>at risk. Why, Well, you haven't actually asked me. If

0:34:22.040 --> 0:34:24.600
<v Speaker 1>you ask me a general question, I'd say, because they

0:34:24.640 --> 0:34:27.480
<v Speaker 1>respect what I've done and I've given them respect, and

0:34:27.560 --> 0:34:29.520
<v Speaker 1>quite often they haven't had respect their whole life.

0:34:29.560 --> 0:34:33.960
<v Speaker 2>So it's absolutely right. And nobody is all bad and

0:34:34.000 --> 0:34:36.440
<v Speaker 2>no one's all good. Everyone sits somewhere in the middle.

0:34:36.520 --> 0:34:41.640
<v Speaker 2>So because you might cook myth you know, once, that's

0:34:41.680 --> 0:34:43.560
<v Speaker 2>not you twenty four to seven, and there's a whole

0:34:43.560 --> 0:34:45.920
<v Speaker 2>lot of crime that you don't agree with. And that's

0:34:45.960 --> 0:34:48.680
<v Speaker 2>the nuance that I think has missed when people look

0:34:48.800 --> 0:34:51.560
<v Speaker 2>objectively and they just go, it's black white. You're either

0:34:51.600 --> 0:34:55.399
<v Speaker 2>police or you're not. If you've committed a crime, you're

0:34:55.400 --> 0:34:58.080
<v Speaker 2>a criminal. And that's the box you're in. Why would

0:34:58.160 --> 0:35:01.279
<v Speaker 2>you talk to anyone? And the police and they can't

0:35:01.280 --> 0:35:03.720
<v Speaker 2>wrap their heads around it, but actually rued as people

0:35:03.880 --> 0:35:05.080
<v Speaker 2>and some of us get along.

0:35:05.400 --> 0:35:10.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And I think the defense in their hard line

0:35:10.480 --> 0:35:12.920
<v Speaker 1>of thinking what are you offering this person and just

0:35:12.960 --> 0:35:16.560
<v Speaker 1>treating him with respect? One I had that probably and

0:35:16.600 --> 0:35:18.680
<v Speaker 1>I say this jokingly, it didn't go too far. It

0:35:18.719 --> 0:35:21.279
<v Speaker 1>was all documented the relationship. But I got a phone call.

0:35:21.520 --> 0:35:23.640
<v Speaker 1>I think it was in the weekend. I don't know

0:35:23.680 --> 0:35:26.799
<v Speaker 1>about informants, but they always managed to reach out at

0:35:26.800 --> 0:35:29.920
<v Speaker 1>the most inappropriate time. So it's whenever you're just about

0:35:29.960 --> 0:35:31.480
<v Speaker 1>to do this or just about to do that, and

0:35:31.520 --> 0:35:33.480
<v Speaker 1>then you're going to put your life on hold. But

0:35:33.520 --> 0:35:36.759
<v Speaker 1>I've got a call from a hospital and this informant

0:35:36.840 --> 0:35:41.160
<v Speaker 1>had been admitted to hospital and asked, you know Gary

0:35:41.239 --> 0:35:44.080
<v Speaker 1>Jubilan yep and mentioned the name of the person. He's

0:35:44.120 --> 0:35:47.400
<v Speaker 1>in hospital. I said, Okay, why are you finding me?

0:35:47.880 --> 0:35:50.040
<v Speaker 1>We got you down. He's got you down as next

0:35:50.080 --> 0:35:55.400
<v Speaker 1>of kin. Okay, what's up with him in the hospital.

0:35:55.600 --> 0:35:58.280
<v Speaker 1>He had a bag of heroin that he had ingested

0:35:58.280 --> 0:36:03.440
<v Speaker 1>that it bursts or whatever. So, yeah, these are the

0:36:03.480 --> 0:36:08.440
<v Speaker 1>situations you've got to deal with with informants. But I

0:36:08.480 --> 0:36:11.879
<v Speaker 1>often say to police, cultivate. Now I hate the word

0:36:11.960 --> 0:36:15.799
<v Speaker 1>cultivate because it makes like you're manipulating the person. But

0:36:15.880 --> 0:36:19.160
<v Speaker 1>the importance of building relationships with criminal informants will help

0:36:19.200 --> 0:36:19.600
<v Speaker 1>you as a.

0:36:19.560 --> 0:36:23.239
<v Speaker 2>Detective, absolutely. And you see that other side of it, then, right,

0:36:23.360 --> 0:36:27.600
<v Speaker 2>you actually, unlike the suspect and of you, you see

0:36:27.640 --> 0:36:30.080
<v Speaker 2>the other side and their lives and some of the

0:36:30.120 --> 0:36:31.840
<v Speaker 2>things that are going on in your life start to

0:36:31.840 --> 0:36:35.040
<v Speaker 2>actually make sense, and you go, I actually kind of

0:36:35.040 --> 0:36:37.400
<v Speaker 2>get this now. If I had to walk in your shoes,

0:36:37.920 --> 0:36:41.520
<v Speaker 2>your whole childhood right through to now, I can understand

0:36:41.920 --> 0:36:44.840
<v Speaker 2>why these things are going on for you. And to

0:36:44.880 --> 0:36:48.239
<v Speaker 2>get that perspective as only helpful in the context of

0:36:48.600 --> 0:36:49.439
<v Speaker 2>the rest of your job.

0:36:50.520 --> 0:36:55.120
<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's talk about the behavioral science unit and a

0:36:55.239 --> 0:36:57.200
<v Speaker 1>bit of the history of it. And it was an

0:36:57.239 --> 0:37:01.400
<v Speaker 1>interesting history of the notes I've got here who was

0:37:01.600 --> 0:37:05.879
<v Speaker 1>established in nineteen ninety eight, but between nineteen eighty two

0:37:05.880 --> 0:37:10.560
<v Speaker 1>and nineteen ninety six there were something like seventy stranger

0:37:10.640 --> 0:37:13.000
<v Speaker 1>based sexual assaults of the CURD and that was sort

0:37:13.000 --> 0:37:16.400
<v Speaker 1>of the genesis of how the unit evolved. Can you

0:37:16.440 --> 0:37:18.920
<v Speaker 1>talk us through that, because I found that fascinating. It'll

0:37:19.000 --> 0:37:21.840
<v Speaker 1>give people a real insight into what we're talking about

0:37:21.840 --> 0:37:24.160
<v Speaker 1>here and what value a unit like the one you're

0:37:24.160 --> 0:37:26.440
<v Speaker 1>managing brings to an investigation.

0:37:27.280 --> 0:37:31.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So it was around about nineteen

0:37:31.080 --> 0:37:34.600
<v Speaker 2>ninety three, and so that our unit didn't exist, of course,

0:37:34.840 --> 0:37:41.200
<v Speaker 2>and Counties Manacau dealt with two intruder rapes, nighttime ones

0:37:42.320 --> 0:37:45.560
<v Speaker 2>with child victims, and you know, detectives being they're really

0:37:45.560 --> 0:37:48.400
<v Speaker 2>intelligent people that they are having two of those in

0:37:48.440 --> 0:37:50.640
<v Speaker 2>the space for a couple of weeks when they are

0:37:50.680 --> 0:37:53.479
<v Speaker 2>not things that happen, being really intelligent that when man,

0:37:53.520 --> 0:37:56.120
<v Speaker 2>this might actually be linked or could potentially be the

0:37:56.160 --> 0:37:59.000
<v Speaker 2>same person. And so they kick off an investigation to

0:37:59.040 --> 0:38:02.800
<v Speaker 2>try and find this unknown offender. And during the course

0:38:02.840 --> 0:38:07.799
<v Speaker 2>of that investigation, which was monumental, they reached out to

0:38:08.800 --> 0:38:11.839
<v Speaker 2>reached out offshore to the FBI, who were the only

0:38:11.960 --> 0:38:13.640
<v Speaker 2>sort of people doing it at the time. I think

0:38:13.640 --> 0:38:16.480
<v Speaker 2>the UK were doing it but had a slightly different

0:38:16.480 --> 0:38:19.239
<v Speaker 2>take on it and brought back a bit of that

0:38:19.320 --> 0:38:24.440
<v Speaker 2>behavioral analysis to it and came up with this suspect

0:38:24.520 --> 0:38:28.680
<v Speaker 2>list of thousands of people. And so the investigation just

0:38:28.719 --> 0:38:31.640
<v Speaker 2>had to go around speaking to these thousands of people

0:38:31.680 --> 0:38:34.400
<v Speaker 2>and taking blood off them to see a sea food match.

0:38:35.480 --> 0:38:38.040
<v Speaker 2>So it wasn't for about eighteen months that they caught

0:38:38.120 --> 0:38:42.839
<v Speaker 2>up with Joseph Thompson and so they lock him up

0:38:43.000 --> 0:38:46.080
<v Speaker 2>and it turns out that once they do that, he

0:38:46.239 --> 0:38:50.120
<v Speaker 2>confesses to a raft of these offenses stretching right back

0:38:50.120 --> 0:38:54.000
<v Speaker 2>into the early eighties. So he was operating undetected for

0:38:54.040 --> 0:38:56.720
<v Speaker 2>that length of time, not undetected, and that the crimes

0:38:56.719 --> 0:39:00.920
<v Speaker 2>were reported, but they were dealt with individually. You know, Okay,

0:39:01.640 --> 0:39:05.480
<v Speaker 2>rapis happened, I can't find any offenders here, and it

0:39:05.520 --> 0:39:08.640
<v Speaker 2>gets filed and then three months later that happens again,

0:39:08.760 --> 0:39:12.480
<v Speaker 2>and nobody had linked them all together because everyone's busy.

0:39:12.280 --> 0:39:17.040
<v Speaker 1>Right, So when Joseph Thompson was arrested, how many charges

0:39:17.080 --> 0:39:18.120
<v Speaker 1>are we talking about here?

0:39:19.800 --> 0:39:22.920
<v Speaker 2>From memory? I mean, in terms of the intruder rapes

0:39:22.920 --> 0:39:26.040
<v Speaker 2>that he was carrying out. I think it was forty

0:39:26.040 --> 0:39:28.239
<v Speaker 2>plus somewhere in that regard. But there was a wealth

0:39:28.280 --> 0:39:30.520
<v Speaker 2>of other offending that he was responsible for, you know,

0:39:30.600 --> 0:39:34.000
<v Speaker 2>unlawfully on property, burglaries where they maybe couldn't get towards

0:39:34.080 --> 0:39:37.279
<v Speaker 2>that sexual evidence threshold. So it would have been in

0:39:37.280 --> 0:39:40.239
<v Speaker 2>the hundreds that he was actually ended up convicted of.

0:39:40.520 --> 0:39:44.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and was he the first New Zealand serial rapist?

0:39:44.960 --> 0:39:48.520
<v Speaker 1>Had you experienced that type of thing before on that magnitude?

0:39:49.200 --> 0:39:51.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean certainly to that degree. Right, I'm sure

0:39:51.880 --> 0:39:56.280
<v Speaker 2>there must have been in the distant past other serial offenders,

0:39:56.280 --> 0:39:59.200
<v Speaker 2>but he was the one where you know, you're talking

0:39:59.600 --> 0:40:02.239
<v Speaker 2>you know, forty plus, like that's a massive amount, and

0:40:02.440 --> 0:40:05.759
<v Speaker 2>over over nearly twenty year period, it was definitely the

0:40:06.160 --> 0:40:09.120
<v Speaker 2>biggest first that that New Zealand had ever encountered.

0:40:09.320 --> 0:40:13.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's a horrific, horrific crime spray, Isn't it absolutely tragic?

0:40:14.160 --> 0:40:17.600
<v Speaker 1>Any anything come out about what may? Evyd? Do you

0:40:18.040 --> 0:40:20.279
<v Speaker 1>aware of any of the backstory too?

0:40:21.000 --> 0:40:24.200
<v Speaker 2>So him not so much. So he admitted he freely

0:40:24.200 --> 0:40:27.600
<v Speaker 2>admitted a lot soon he was arrested, right, So he

0:40:28.000 --> 0:40:29.799
<v Speaker 2>was one of those guys who said, look, this is

0:40:29.800 --> 0:40:31.640
<v Speaker 2>who I am. I know I've got this problem, this

0:40:31.680 --> 0:40:33.480
<v Speaker 2>is what I've done. I know that what I do

0:40:33.640 --> 0:40:36.799
<v Speaker 2>is wrong, but I just can't help it. So, you know,

0:40:37.080 --> 0:40:40.120
<v Speaker 2>the sexual fantasy element for him was massive, and he

0:40:40.280 --> 0:40:44.200
<v Speaker 2>just couldn't overcome those thoughts and just keep them inside.

0:40:44.280 --> 0:40:46.759
<v Speaker 2>He had to d Yeah, that's what drove me, have

0:40:46.800 --> 0:40:48.520
<v Speaker 2>to act on them. So he knew that there was

0:40:48.520 --> 0:40:51.920
<v Speaker 2>something wrong in terms of his thoughts and what he

0:40:51.960 --> 0:40:54.279
<v Speaker 2>was doing, but he just couldn't couldn't stop them. But

0:40:54.320 --> 0:40:56.040
<v Speaker 2>in terms of his background, you know, he had a

0:40:56.040 --> 0:40:58.719
<v Speaker 2>bit of a tragic upbringing, but it was nothing. It

0:40:58.840 --> 0:41:02.959
<v Speaker 2>was nothing startling. It's not the cliche where you think

0:41:03.239 --> 0:41:06.480
<v Speaker 2>a sexual offender must have been sexually abused, but there's

0:41:06.480 --> 0:41:09.920
<v Speaker 2>always something in their past. There's some sort of trauma

0:41:10.000 --> 0:41:14.480
<v Speaker 2>or something tragic, but it's not always sexual. So we

0:41:14.520 --> 0:41:18.160
<v Speaker 2>hare Joseph Thompson. And then despite saying off the back

0:41:18.200 --> 0:41:19.560
<v Speaker 2>of that, well we're not going to have that again,

0:41:20.040 --> 0:41:22.920
<v Speaker 2>we'll make sure that doesn't happen, then it started happening

0:41:22.960 --> 0:41:24.440
<v Speaker 2>again and there was another.

0:41:24.200 --> 0:41:26.520
<v Speaker 1>Serial cerial rapist here. Yeah.

0:41:26.600 --> 0:41:29.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And so when Joseph Thompson's in prison, suddenly there's

0:41:29.840 --> 0:41:33.680
<v Speaker 2>are these other offenses happening, and they were happening in

0:41:33.719 --> 0:41:37.040
<v Speaker 2>Counties manacau which is South Auckland, and in Auckland City,

0:41:37.719 --> 0:41:40.799
<v Speaker 2>and both of those are different policing areas, and they

0:41:40.840 --> 0:41:44.080
<v Speaker 2>started off their own separate investigations looking for this person.

0:41:45.160 --> 0:41:48.240
<v Speaker 2>The original boss of the unit I named Chuck Henwood.

0:41:48.920 --> 0:41:51.400
<v Speaker 2>He had worked on the Joseph Thompson case, so he

0:41:51.440 --> 0:41:57.839
<v Speaker 2>got seconded to the Auckland City second thing and goes, man,

0:41:57.880 --> 0:42:00.320
<v Speaker 2>your files over here in the city are really similar

0:42:00.560 --> 0:42:03.440
<v Speaker 2>to this these ones we're dealing with in South Auckland. Again,

0:42:04.360 --> 0:42:06.600
<v Speaker 2>realize that they're looking for the same guy again, so

0:42:06.640 --> 0:42:10.520
<v Speaker 2>they merge these investigations very similar process. Eventually they pick

0:42:10.600 --> 0:42:13.960
<v Speaker 2>up Malcolm Riwa and I remember these names because I

0:42:14.000 --> 0:42:15.200
<v Speaker 2>was a kid at the time and they were on

0:42:15.239 --> 0:42:18.800
<v Speaker 2>the news, and with Joseph Thompson, I didn't really understand

0:42:18.880 --> 0:42:22.480
<v Speaker 2>what was going on, but those two cases were the

0:42:22.520 --> 0:42:26.080
<v Speaker 2>genesis of the unit. So after that, the organization when

0:42:26.600 --> 0:42:30.279
<v Speaker 2>we can't have this, we can't have serial rapists and

0:42:30.320 --> 0:42:33.799
<v Speaker 2>their crimes not being linked together over decades because we

0:42:33.840 --> 0:42:37.040
<v Speaker 2>need to be able to stop this. Districts don't talk

0:42:37.080 --> 0:42:39.680
<v Speaker 2>to each other, probably similar to Ossie the different state

0:42:39.680 --> 0:42:43.200
<v Speaker 2>police forces don't talk to each other. If you get

0:42:43.239 --> 0:42:45.640
<v Speaker 2>a rape case, you're not just going to randomly reach

0:42:45.680 --> 0:42:47.640
<v Speaker 2>out to the other end of the country to go, hey,

0:42:47.680 --> 0:42:50.759
<v Speaker 2>do you have anything similar? There might be number three hundreds,

0:42:50.920 --> 0:42:53.520
<v Speaker 2>two hundred things to do. So they set up the

0:42:53.640 --> 0:43:00.720
<v Speaker 2>unit to track every stranger based sexual offense the country,

0:43:01.400 --> 0:43:04.040
<v Speaker 2>to have a one stop shop for it, so that

0:43:04.080 --> 0:43:06.120
<v Speaker 2>if a new thing cropped up and it looks similar

0:43:06.200 --> 0:43:08.560
<v Speaker 2>to one that was unsolved, we could link them together.

0:43:09.640 --> 0:43:11.680
<v Speaker 2>So that was the early genesis of it, and it's

0:43:11.680 --> 0:43:15.120
<v Speaker 2>evolved massively since then with psychology and all the rest

0:43:15.120 --> 0:43:15.399
<v Speaker 2>of it.

0:43:16.719 --> 0:43:19.560
<v Speaker 1>So with that, at the time when they reached out

0:43:19.600 --> 0:43:23.760
<v Speaker 1>to the FBI, was it a case of just stain

0:43:23.840 --> 0:43:26.000
<v Speaker 1>in contact with the FBI and getting them to have

0:43:26.040 --> 0:43:29.080
<v Speaker 1>a look at it that, Okay, we're getting all these rapes.

0:43:29.640 --> 0:43:32.719
<v Speaker 1>Do we think they're linked? And the FBI would give

0:43:32.760 --> 0:43:36.040
<v Speaker 1>you a way of linking the crimes the methodology of

0:43:36.080 --> 0:43:38.880
<v Speaker 1>the way the offender gained entry into the place, I suppose,

0:43:39.440 --> 0:43:43.239
<v Speaker 1>or different things, or the nature the way that the

0:43:43.280 --> 0:43:46.480
<v Speaker 1>offender treated the victim. Is that the type of thing

0:43:46.520 --> 0:43:47.560
<v Speaker 1>that brought them all together.

0:43:48.080 --> 0:43:52.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, definitely, So the FBI would have said, or they did.

0:43:52.480 --> 0:43:55.400
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's a exactly what's happened here, like how

0:43:55.480 --> 0:43:58.520
<v Speaker 2>have they gotten? What have they actually done? And based

0:43:58.560 --> 0:44:00.440
<v Speaker 2>on that they are able to go this is the

0:44:00.480 --> 0:44:02.560
<v Speaker 2>type of guy that you're looking for based on our

0:44:02.640 --> 0:44:06.720
<v Speaker 2>experience over in North America. So they're able to whittle

0:44:06.760 --> 0:44:10.920
<v Speaker 2>it down, not massively, to an age range. And this

0:44:10.960 --> 0:44:13.160
<v Speaker 2>is the type of crime you might expect to see

0:44:13.160 --> 0:44:16.480
<v Speaker 2>in this person's background. So if he's you know, if

0:44:16.480 --> 0:44:18.000
<v Speaker 2>he's breaking a home in the middle of the night

0:44:18.239 --> 0:44:20.319
<v Speaker 2>and be able to do that, well, that doesn't just

0:44:20.360 --> 0:44:23.480
<v Speaker 2>come out of nowhere. So that's the experience. And how

0:44:23.560 --> 0:44:26.000
<v Speaker 2>does how does that person learn they must be familiar

0:44:26.040 --> 0:44:30.360
<v Speaker 2>with burglary or some other similar type of offending, so

0:44:31.120 --> 0:44:34.160
<v Speaker 2>that that all armed that suspect list that they then

0:44:34.200 --> 0:44:37.799
<v Speaker 2>went through and took the blood the blood's from, But

0:44:38.680 --> 0:44:41.080
<v Speaker 2>they then needed to sort of New Zealand a fire,

0:44:41.200 --> 0:44:45.120
<v Speaker 2>I guess. So they then said, we've got this knowledge now,

0:44:45.360 --> 0:44:48.680
<v Speaker 2>and they started to create their own database of offenders

0:44:48.960 --> 0:44:52.880
<v Speaker 2>and there I guess their histories and things, and our

0:44:52.920 --> 0:44:55.960
<v Speaker 2>computer system at the time, couldn't you search for that

0:44:56.080 --> 0:44:58.560
<v Speaker 2>kind of stuff really well and still come So they

0:44:59.080 --> 0:45:03.080
<v Speaker 2>just constructed it behavioral database essentially as opposed to a

0:45:03.120 --> 0:45:06.520
<v Speaker 2>criminal history database, and that was the early start of

0:45:06.520 --> 0:45:09.319
<v Speaker 2>that work. And then we sort of went away from

0:45:09.360 --> 0:45:11.960
<v Speaker 2>the FBI a little bit. As far as I'm aware,

0:45:12.080 --> 0:45:15.800
<v Speaker 2>the Canadians sort of overtook because we're far more in

0:45:15.880 --> 0:45:20.680
<v Speaker 2>common legally and jurisdiction. Yeah, Canadians, so that RCMP now

0:45:20.760 --> 0:45:24.080
<v Speaker 2>have really close relationship with We go over to them

0:45:24.120 --> 0:45:28.080
<v Speaker 2>for training and we use their software system, which is

0:45:28.120 --> 0:45:31.720
<v Speaker 2>that behavioral database for use today. So now our closest

0:45:31.760 --> 0:45:34.280
<v Speaker 2>relationship overseas is definitely with the Canadians.

0:45:34.719 --> 0:45:38.719
<v Speaker 1>Okay, it's interesting how it evolved that around that era

0:45:38.840 --> 0:45:41.279
<v Speaker 1>that you're talking with the serial fenders, because it was

0:45:41.320 --> 0:45:46.040
<v Speaker 1>something we quite often the different law enforcement agencies operated

0:45:46.120 --> 0:45:50.799
<v Speaker 1>in silos, like not communicating and then even then won

0:45:50.920 --> 0:45:54.160
<v Speaker 1>like New Zealand Police or New South Wales Police, which

0:45:54.200 --> 0:45:56.640
<v Speaker 1>is covering the big area, you don't know what the

0:45:56.680 --> 0:45:59.799
<v Speaker 1>local area. What's happening in the local area's command is

0:45:59.800 --> 0:46:03.600
<v Speaker 1>how thin because you're not working on it. So making

0:46:03.680 --> 0:46:06.640
<v Speaker 1>that link, but I think the beauty of what they

0:46:06.680 --> 0:46:09.600
<v Speaker 1>bring and when you look at it, it's not rocket science,

0:46:09.680 --> 0:46:12.840
<v Speaker 1>is it. You don't sort of stand back Oh, that's amazing.

0:46:13.160 --> 0:46:17.480
<v Speaker 1>It's almost a common common sense approach to the way

0:46:17.480 --> 0:46:18.560
<v Speaker 1>that you would look at the crime.

0:46:19.080 --> 0:46:22.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, that's what I've found. And it's almost you know,

0:46:22.560 --> 0:46:26.319
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the advice given is, you know, a

0:46:26.320 --> 0:46:29.560
<v Speaker 2>good detective will already have an inkling and they kind

0:46:29.560 --> 0:46:32.759
<v Speaker 2>of stamp on it from the people that have the

0:46:33.000 --> 0:46:37.279
<v Speaker 2>signature block that says behavior Science Unit, registered psychologist, And

0:46:38.480 --> 0:46:40.319
<v Speaker 2>that is so true. But at the same time, I've

0:46:40.360 --> 0:46:44.680
<v Speaker 2>just seen that the people on the team are just incredible.

0:46:44.760 --> 0:46:47.480
<v Speaker 2>They can take any case and just go, based on

0:46:47.520 --> 0:46:50.120
<v Speaker 2>their own experiences, go this is kind of where you

0:46:50.160 --> 0:46:52.640
<v Speaker 2>need to be going, which just saves so much time

0:46:53.480 --> 0:46:55.840
<v Speaker 2>rather than going down twenty six paths all at the

0:46:55.880 --> 0:46:57.719
<v Speaker 2>same time, and that can really narrow it to just

0:46:57.760 --> 0:46:58.920
<v Speaker 2>one or two, which is just.

0:46:58.880 --> 0:47:03.120
<v Speaker 1>What I don't think people appreciate that haven't worked in

0:47:03.320 --> 0:47:07.239
<v Speaker 1>major crime or crimes of this nature. Serial defending how

0:47:07.320 --> 0:47:11.200
<v Speaker 1>much information comes in too. It's almost like you've overwhelmed

0:47:11.200 --> 0:47:14.880
<v Speaker 1>with information, So it's about analyzing that information, collating it all.

0:47:14.920 --> 0:47:17.720
<v Speaker 1>The start with analyzing it, then pick out what's important

0:47:17.760 --> 0:47:18.680
<v Speaker 1>and what's not important.

0:47:19.239 --> 0:47:22.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, totally, and without somebody sort of guiding you you're

0:47:22.760 --> 0:47:25.040
<v Speaker 2>going I you know, you're taught that you've got to

0:47:25.120 --> 0:47:28.439
<v Speaker 2>keep that open mind and a tunnel vision because we've

0:47:28.480 --> 0:47:32.040
<v Speaker 2>been there and had our ass is handed to us

0:47:32.120 --> 0:47:34.799
<v Speaker 2>for doing that and rightly so for decades, and so

0:47:34.840 --> 0:47:36.920
<v Speaker 2>you can consider it all and it's really helpful to

0:47:36.920 --> 0:47:39.319
<v Speaker 2>have someone go, well, actually, if the offenders done this,

0:47:39.320 --> 0:47:43.040
<v Speaker 2>this and this, they can be this type of person.

0:47:43.880 --> 0:47:46.959
<v Speaker 2>That's fantastic. You can focus your resources while still looking

0:47:46.960 --> 0:47:49.759
<v Speaker 2>at those other things, but you're not suddenly having to

0:47:49.840 --> 0:47:51.520
<v Speaker 2>juggle a million balls all at once.

0:47:51.719 --> 0:47:54.440
<v Speaker 1>And that breaking it down simply. I knowed there was

0:47:54.480 --> 0:47:57.200
<v Speaker 1>a case I worked on when homicide was homicide and

0:47:57.239 --> 0:48:01.160
<v Speaker 1>Serial Violent Offenders unit that wire and we're doing serial

0:48:01.280 --> 0:48:03.799
<v Speaker 1>rapists as well, and there was a rapist that was

0:48:03.840 --> 0:48:08.880
<v Speaker 1>operating in the area of Sydney and multiple victims, but

0:48:09.000 --> 0:48:12.200
<v Speaker 1>always the offenses were occurring on a Tuesday or Thursday night.

0:48:12.239 --> 0:48:15.880
<v Speaker 1>I think it's a long time ago. Looking back at it,

0:48:17.320 --> 0:48:20.520
<v Speaker 1>we saw the pattern and then when the person was

0:48:20.560 --> 0:48:24.120
<v Speaker 1>actually arrested, it was obvious he was living at home,

0:48:24.200 --> 0:48:27.200
<v Speaker 1>but he was telling his partner at the time that

0:48:27.239 --> 0:48:29.919
<v Speaker 1>he was at tech on the Tuesday and Thursday nights

0:48:29.920 --> 0:48:32.920
<v Speaker 1>that were the nights that he was going to after

0:48:33.000 --> 0:48:35.920
<v Speaker 1>hours study, so that's when he was out and about,

0:48:35.960 --> 0:48:38.960
<v Speaker 1>and that's when the offenses were always occurring, from that

0:48:39.040 --> 0:48:41.759
<v Speaker 1>six o'clock to nine o'clock time on the Tuesday or

0:48:41.840 --> 0:48:45.239
<v Speaker 1>Thursday night. And I look back at that and it's

0:48:45.280 --> 0:48:48.040
<v Speaker 1>all these little bits of experience that you gain the

0:48:48.080 --> 0:48:50.799
<v Speaker 1>longer you stay in it. And I think it would

0:48:50.800 --> 0:48:53.160
<v Speaker 1>have been a smart play when we were appealing to

0:48:53.200 --> 0:48:56.520
<v Speaker 1>the public with anyone with information, we know this person

0:48:56.600 --> 0:48:59.239
<v Speaker 1>is not at their home between the hours of six

0:48:59.320 --> 0:49:02.920
<v Speaker 1>pm nine pm on the Tuesday and Thursday night, if

0:49:02.960 --> 0:49:06.160
<v Speaker 1>anyone knows someone blah blah blah. Little things like that

0:49:06.200 --> 0:49:07.720
<v Speaker 1>can be very very helpful.

0:49:08.160 --> 0:49:10.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, definitely, And still to this day where we don't

0:49:10.840 --> 0:49:14.640
<v Speaker 2>do that, do we not often enough? Anyway? Yeah, absolutely,

0:49:14.719 --> 0:49:17.040
<v Speaker 2>if you know when it's happening, there's a reason for it.

0:49:17.120 --> 0:49:20.640
<v Speaker 2>They're clearly not otherwise supposed to be. Otherwise they probably

0:49:20.680 --> 0:49:23.239
<v Speaker 2>would have been dubbed in by somebody. Yeah, someone thinks

0:49:23.239 --> 0:49:26.640
<v Speaker 2>they're somewhere and they're not. So Yeah. Definitely, like getting

0:49:26.640 --> 0:49:29.040
<v Speaker 2>that stuff early and being able to put that out

0:49:29.040 --> 0:49:29.799
<v Speaker 2>in the media.

0:49:29.840 --> 0:49:33.919
<v Speaker 1>What's your thoughts on using the media in investigations because

0:49:33.920 --> 0:49:38.160
<v Speaker 1>I know there's different schools of thought with impolicing sometimes

0:49:38.480 --> 0:49:42.040
<v Speaker 1>whether the media do I thought during my career and

0:49:42.280 --> 0:49:44.640
<v Speaker 1>post career they are always a good tool if they

0:49:44.640 --> 0:49:47.719
<v Speaker 1>were used properly. The media the information that you could

0:49:47.719 --> 0:49:49.160
<v Speaker 1>put out one hundred.

0:49:48.880 --> 0:49:53.440
<v Speaker 2>Percent, Like so many cases, the majority of cases have

0:49:53.640 --> 0:49:56.520
<v Speaker 2>a media element to them. There's no SPS crime that

0:49:56.560 --> 0:49:59.680
<v Speaker 2>doesn't these days. And I've always yeah, I've always found

0:50:00.239 --> 0:50:05.120
<v Speaker 2>to be nothing other than helpful ethical, you know. But

0:50:05.200 --> 0:50:08.000
<v Speaker 2>what people kind of get caught up in is I

0:50:08.040 --> 0:50:11.160
<v Speaker 2>think a lot of cops think that the journalists are

0:50:11.200 --> 0:50:14.759
<v Speaker 2>trying to do their job for them, and like they

0:50:14.760 --> 0:50:18.759
<v Speaker 2>have this clash like I've been doing my job because

0:50:18.760 --> 0:50:21.799
<v Speaker 2>I'm the detective and you're not. But I don't quite

0:50:21.840 --> 0:50:25.600
<v Speaker 2>realize that you have a completely separate job and they

0:50:25.680 --> 0:50:30.600
<v Speaker 2>both come with their own legal parameters, pressures, objectives which

0:50:30.640 --> 0:50:34.920
<v Speaker 2>are slightly different. But that's okay, and there's so much

0:50:34.960 --> 0:50:37.400
<v Speaker 2>overlap and you can work together. So as long as

0:50:37.400 --> 0:50:40.840
<v Speaker 2>there's not that like clash through nothing other than ignorance,

0:50:40.880 --> 0:50:46.440
<v Speaker 2>I think then amazing, amazing the media on board for investigations.

0:50:46.680 --> 0:50:49.600
<v Speaker 1>I think it needs to be used from policing point

0:50:49.600 --> 0:50:52.719
<v Speaker 1>of view and now I've got the opportunity to say

0:50:52.719 --> 0:50:54.320
<v Speaker 1>it from the media point of view and the police

0:50:54.360 --> 0:50:57.279
<v Speaker 1>point of view. Now working in the media, but from

0:50:57.280 --> 0:51:01.520
<v Speaker 1>the place point of view, and I reference Sarah Yule again,

0:51:01.880 --> 0:51:04.440
<v Speaker 1>I would often consult her, what's the message I'm going

0:51:04.480 --> 0:51:06.760
<v Speaker 1>to put out? Because when I'm looking down the camera

0:51:06.920 --> 0:51:10.040
<v Speaker 1>and I'm talking on in the media, there's not one

0:51:10.120 --> 0:51:13.600
<v Speaker 1>word that I'm not saying without a purpose to ever

0:51:13.880 --> 0:51:16.239
<v Speaker 1>either get a witness to come forward or get a

0:51:16.280 --> 0:51:19.920
<v Speaker 1>reaction from the offender. And I think it's sort of

0:51:19.960 --> 0:51:22.080
<v Speaker 1>frowned upon in policing, but I think it's something that

0:51:22.120 --> 0:51:26.040
<v Speaker 1>we could exploit more really put pressure. And I've used it.

0:51:26.080 --> 0:51:30.120
<v Speaker 1>We've organized crime. I've used it in serial offenders, all

0:51:30.400 --> 0:51:33.680
<v Speaker 1>sorts of high profile cases where I'm sending the message

0:51:33.680 --> 0:51:38.520
<v Speaker 1>out in an organized crime one. We created that the

0:51:38.560 --> 0:51:42.040
<v Speaker 1>way that we were discussing the crime. We had multiple

0:51:42.120 --> 0:51:45.839
<v Speaker 1>unlimited resources coming after these people, and I know at

0:51:45.840 --> 0:51:48.720
<v Speaker 1>panic them. I had solicits contacting me, how many murders

0:51:48.760 --> 0:51:51.480
<v Speaker 1>are you going to be charging our client with? We

0:51:51.520 --> 0:51:54.640
<v Speaker 1>didn't have any evidence, but and we didn't make an

0:51:54.680 --> 0:51:58.640
<v Speaker 1>untrue representation, but we created the thought that time sticking

0:51:58.680 --> 0:52:01.799
<v Speaker 1>away you better get in now, because sooner or later

0:52:01.800 --> 0:52:03.120
<v Speaker 1>we're going to come and knock on your door.

0:52:03.840 --> 0:52:06.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and it's and that's the honest true, isn't it?

0:52:06.600 --> 0:52:10.280
<v Speaker 2>Like we don't use that enough in police We don't.

0:52:10.719 --> 0:52:13.720
<v Speaker 2>I think there is that rigidity around. Well, I'm only

0:52:13.760 --> 0:52:17.560
<v Speaker 2>going to tell the media and therefore the public what

0:52:17.640 --> 0:52:20.520
<v Speaker 2>I want out there, and nothing else is fair game.

0:52:20.560 --> 0:52:23.239
<v Speaker 2>But at some point it's like we'll hang on what's

0:52:23.280 --> 0:52:25.640
<v Speaker 2>the media's role and what could be helpful here? And

0:52:25.680 --> 0:52:28.040
<v Speaker 2>beyond that, like what if we're actually trying to achieve

0:52:28.400 --> 0:52:31.560
<v Speaker 2>we actually want to arrest the people responsible for this.

0:52:32.239 --> 0:52:35.000
<v Speaker 2>They're going to probably watch this too. How else we

0:52:35.280 --> 0:52:37.839
<v Speaker 2>can we use this for advantage low normal people rather

0:52:37.880 --> 0:52:40.399
<v Speaker 2>than standing there like robots and just delivering a couple

0:52:40.480 --> 0:52:44.759
<v Speaker 2>of things. But yeah, that message is massive, right, And

0:52:44.840 --> 0:52:47.319
<v Speaker 2>then they're on the phone straight away and a lot

0:52:47.320 --> 0:52:49.200
<v Speaker 2>of people are panicking. Have got nothing to do with it.

0:52:50.040 --> 0:52:54.120
<v Speaker 1>I did one, and it's on the Willim Tyrill matter.

0:52:54.200 --> 0:52:56.520
<v Speaker 1>You might have heard about that, the young boy that disappeared.

0:52:56.520 --> 0:52:58.680
<v Speaker 1>It was let it. It was the end of my career.

0:52:58.920 --> 0:53:02.480
<v Speaker 1>I got into trouble, probably aware of that. But when

0:53:02.760 --> 0:53:06.000
<v Speaker 1>I took the investigation over. I made it very clear,

0:53:06.280 --> 0:53:09.400
<v Speaker 1>and I came up with the strategy. I wanted to

0:53:09.400 --> 0:53:12.239
<v Speaker 1>put pressure on people to come forward and had a

0:53:12.320 --> 0:53:16.160
<v Speaker 1>map of where we disappeared from and said this is

0:53:16.160 --> 0:53:19.000
<v Speaker 1>a one square kilometer. Anyone that lives in that one

0:53:19.239 --> 0:53:21.719
<v Speaker 1>square kilometer that has not come forward and spoken to

0:53:21.760 --> 0:53:24.680
<v Speaker 1>police makes me wonder why you haven't come and spoken

0:53:24.719 --> 0:53:28.400
<v Speaker 1>to police. Now what that did? I had some complaints,

0:53:28.440 --> 0:53:31.319
<v Speaker 1>so that was very aggressive that what you're doing. But

0:53:31.360 --> 0:53:34.200
<v Speaker 1>it flushed people out. Obviously we haven't solved it. It

0:53:34.239 --> 0:53:36.799
<v Speaker 1>didn't work, but it was a strategy. It's better than

0:53:36.840 --> 0:53:39.440
<v Speaker 1>sitting there going I don't know what's happened. Like, we

0:53:39.480 --> 0:53:43.440
<v Speaker 1>came up with a strategy and tried to flush people out.

0:53:43.640 --> 0:53:46.440
<v Speaker 2>And that's great. Right, people need a why, They need

0:53:46.440 --> 0:53:48.719
<v Speaker 2>a reason. Yeah, Like so many people sit there knowing

0:53:48.760 --> 0:53:51.160
<v Speaker 2>things about things and they go. But I'm not going

0:53:51.239 --> 0:53:53.400
<v Speaker 2>to be the one to step up and tell the police,

0:53:53.560 --> 0:53:56.480
<v Speaker 2>but I think somebody should. It's not usually the case

0:53:56.520 --> 0:53:58.600
<v Speaker 2>that there's one hundred people that know and they're all

0:53:58.640 --> 0:54:01.040
<v Speaker 2>just digging their heels and then don't want to talk.

0:54:01.520 --> 0:54:04.840
<v Speaker 2>They do want to offload, and they just need to

0:54:04.840 --> 0:54:06.400
<v Speaker 2>be given the reason to do it so that they

0:54:06.560 --> 0:54:09.080
<v Speaker 2>get is absolute goal. Just if you're within the zone

0:54:09.080 --> 0:54:11.000
<v Speaker 2>and you haven't come and talked about here's that little

0:54:11.080 --> 0:54:13.279
<v Speaker 2>drive to go, well I'm within that zone. Okay, well

0:54:13.320 --> 0:54:15.960
<v Speaker 2>I guess now is the right time. That's brilliant and

0:54:16.000 --> 0:54:17.399
<v Speaker 2>that should be used all the time.

0:54:18.440 --> 0:54:22.600
<v Speaker 1>Another one was with the William Tyrell case, that when

0:54:22.600 --> 0:54:25.640
<v Speaker 1>we're putting out the reward or talking about it, that

0:54:26.480 --> 0:54:29.400
<v Speaker 1>anyone that's watching this, if the person that you're watching

0:54:29.440 --> 0:54:35.399
<v Speaker 1>it with might appear disinterested, overly disinterested, or might overreact

0:54:35.760 --> 0:54:38.600
<v Speaker 1>or just making I'm thinking, if someone's sitting there that's

0:54:38.640 --> 0:54:42.160
<v Speaker 1>involved in it, sitting there with a friend, a family

0:54:42.200 --> 0:54:44.839
<v Speaker 1>member or whatever, and the William Tyrell matter comes up

0:54:44.880 --> 0:54:47.960
<v Speaker 1>on TV, they turned the TV off, or turn the

0:54:48.040 --> 0:54:50.160
<v Speaker 1>radio down, or close the newspaper. They don't want to

0:54:50.160 --> 0:54:53.160
<v Speaker 1>talk about it, or they're fixated on it. Something like that.

0:54:53.480 --> 0:54:57.520
<v Speaker 1>Little triggers that might flush flush people out. But it's

0:54:57.520 --> 0:55:02.000
<v Speaker 1>something that you're unit was formed on the basis of

0:55:02.040 --> 0:55:04.879
<v Speaker 1>the FBI. Very early in my policing career, I read

0:55:04.920 --> 0:55:09.279
<v Speaker 1>the book by John Douglas Mind Hunter, and it was

0:55:09.320 --> 0:55:10.799
<v Speaker 1>a long time ago that I read it, But what

0:55:10.960 --> 0:55:13.359
<v Speaker 1>really stuck in my mind was the way he would

0:55:13.400 --> 0:55:18.160
<v Speaker 1>strategically use the media to bring information, bring witnesses, ford

0:55:18.239 --> 0:55:20.360
<v Speaker 1>or flush the offender out. And I think it's a

0:55:20.400 --> 0:55:23.200
<v Speaker 1>strategy that's under used in policing.

0:55:23.680 --> 0:55:27.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, definitely, you want me reach, right, So why wouldn't

0:55:27.120 --> 0:55:29.719
<v Speaker 2>you use every single evenue that you could.

0:55:30.000 --> 0:55:33.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, well it's a tool, it's a tool. It's

0:55:34.080 --> 0:55:36.359
<v Speaker 1>just I want to break down more of the work

0:55:36.400 --> 0:55:39.160
<v Speaker 1>that the unit does. But just before we finish part one,

0:55:39.320 --> 0:55:43.160
<v Speaker 1>what's the makeup of your unit? Just describe the behavioral

0:55:43.160 --> 0:55:45.200
<v Speaker 1>science unit. How many people are you got working on

0:55:45.239 --> 0:55:48.680
<v Speaker 1>it and how do people access the unit?

0:55:49.080 --> 0:55:52.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we're really small, so there's only five people on

0:55:52.320 --> 0:55:57.120
<v Speaker 2>the team. There's two registered psychologists and then three behavioral

0:55:57.120 --> 0:56:01.600
<v Speaker 2>analysts and their work is added into that. The analysts

0:56:01.640 --> 0:56:05.279
<v Speaker 2>are doing that serial sexual offender behavioral capture work and

0:56:06.239 --> 0:56:10.919
<v Speaker 2>are advising major crime investigations. And we're just a support unit,

0:56:11.000 --> 0:56:15.279
<v Speaker 2>so we don't hold cases. We're not investigating ourselves, so

0:56:15.400 --> 0:56:19.080
<v Speaker 2>we don't work on things proactively. Investigation teams have to

0:56:19.120 --> 0:56:22.239
<v Speaker 2>reach out to us. So that's just kind of a

0:56:22.280 --> 0:56:25.400
<v Speaker 2>marketing exercise. You know. We go and talk on training

0:56:25.440 --> 0:56:29.959
<v Speaker 2>courses and sell what we can do and put things

0:56:30.000 --> 0:56:32.440
<v Speaker 2>on the intranet to say what we can do, and

0:56:32.480 --> 0:56:35.560
<v Speaker 2>then you know someone somewhere and most stations know that

0:56:35.600 --> 0:56:38.600
<v Speaker 2>we exist, and often we're just grateful people reach out

0:56:38.640 --> 0:56:39.839
<v Speaker 2>and go, how, I don't know if you can help

0:56:39.920 --> 0:56:42.000
<v Speaker 2>with this, but just thought we'd reach out to you.

0:56:42.680 --> 0:56:44.120
<v Speaker 2>So a lot of that, and then you get a

0:56:44.160 --> 0:56:46.080
<v Speaker 2>lot of repeat customers because if you do a good

0:56:46.160 --> 0:56:50.239
<v Speaker 2>job for somebody, they'll come back for everything, which is great.

0:56:50.440 --> 0:56:53.160
<v Speaker 2>So it very much gets skewed towards areas that have

0:56:53.239 --> 0:56:56.080
<v Speaker 2>maybe used us before. So there's definitely parts of the

0:56:56.120 --> 0:56:57.640
<v Speaker 2>country that don't use us so much.

0:56:57.840 --> 0:57:01.440
<v Speaker 1>And I laugh at that because I used to The

0:57:01.480 --> 0:57:04.560
<v Speaker 1>standing joke with Sarah Yule and myself was that I

0:57:04.600 --> 0:57:07.840
<v Speaker 1>thought she was my own private criminal psychologist. It was

0:57:07.840 --> 0:57:11.480
<v Speaker 1>on call twenty four to seven. But yeah, I'm that guy.

0:57:11.560 --> 0:57:13.920
<v Speaker 1>I just and I was quite cranky and jealous when

0:57:13.960 --> 0:57:16.520
<v Speaker 1>she was going to other investigations. I thought I had

0:57:16.640 --> 0:57:19.640
<v Speaker 1>sole access. But we joke on that. But that's very

0:57:19.680 --> 0:57:22.640
<v Speaker 1>much how it played out in New South Wales too,

0:57:22.680 --> 0:57:25.760
<v Speaker 1>and where people got to see the skills that a

0:57:25.880 --> 0:57:30.880
<v Speaker 1>psychologists can bring to the investigation. Okay, I want to

0:57:30.920 --> 0:57:35.680
<v Speaker 1>call in that expertise and what I found from an

0:57:35.680 --> 0:57:38.240
<v Speaker 1>investigator's point of view, and I know others like the

0:57:38.320 --> 0:57:41.800
<v Speaker 1>others that have used as the resources. It gives you

0:57:41.840 --> 0:57:44.800
<v Speaker 1>a different perspective. You can get that group think in

0:57:44.800 --> 0:57:47.840
<v Speaker 1>a police environment. You're all in the incident room together,

0:57:47.920 --> 0:57:50.880
<v Speaker 1>you're talking, and then a psychologist comes in and looks

0:57:50.920 --> 0:57:54.240
<v Speaker 1>at it a little bit differently from the way a

0:57:54.240 --> 0:57:57.440
<v Speaker 1>police perspective. Do you see that in the work that

0:57:57.480 --> 0:57:59.800
<v Speaker 1>you're doing with the unit, Yeah, definitely.

0:58:00.240 --> 0:58:05.800
<v Speaker 2>And a real common one is major crome investigations looking

0:58:05.840 --> 0:58:10.000
<v Speaker 2>for advice on interviewing somebody you know, And that's I

0:58:10.120 --> 0:58:13.920
<v Speaker 2>like those ones because coming from the operational background, I see,

0:58:14.240 --> 0:58:16.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, that's something that that would be really useful.

0:58:17.480 --> 0:58:19.480
<v Speaker 2>And you get so many where they're like, okay, so

0:58:19.520 --> 0:58:21.160
<v Speaker 2>what we're going to do is we're going to smash

0:58:21.160 --> 0:58:23.840
<v Speaker 2>in their doors at six am with the armed offenders squad,

0:58:23.920 --> 0:58:26.360
<v Speaker 2>going to rip them out of their bed. We're going

0:58:26.440 --> 0:58:28.600
<v Speaker 2>to throw them in the car, get them in the cell. Cool.

0:58:28.840 --> 0:58:30.680
<v Speaker 2>Once we've done that, how do we make them talk

0:58:30.680 --> 0:58:34.960
<v Speaker 2>to us? You got to go, yeah, okay, well just

0:58:34.960 --> 0:58:37.480
<v Speaker 2>throwing this out there, but are you going to lose anything?

0:58:37.520 --> 0:58:40.200
<v Speaker 2>If maybe you don't smash his door in, or are

0:58:40.200 --> 0:58:42.200
<v Speaker 2>you going to lose anything if you actually go see

0:58:42.240 --> 0:58:45.840
<v Speaker 2>them at three pm? Or let's be really wild, what

0:58:45.960 --> 0:58:48.440
<v Speaker 2>if you ring in and give them a heads up,

0:58:48.640 --> 0:58:51.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, and just throwing out these ideas and sometimes

0:58:51.280 --> 0:58:55.880
<v Speaker 2>they are undoable, right. There are some cases you want

0:58:56.200 --> 0:58:58.960
<v Speaker 2>the elements of surprise so you don't lose evidence. But

0:58:59.040 --> 0:59:01.480
<v Speaker 2>that is such a ridge way of thinking. You know

0:59:01.520 --> 0:59:03.920
<v Speaker 2>that we have to do it and take them by surprise,

0:59:04.040 --> 0:59:05.760
<v Speaker 2>and you kind of go, okay, but do you have

0:59:05.800 --> 0:59:08.240
<v Speaker 2>all your evidence already? Yep? Are you expecting to find

0:59:08.280 --> 0:59:09.600
<v Speaker 2>any more at this place?

0:59:10.360 --> 0:59:10.800
<v Speaker 1>Not? Really?

0:59:11.640 --> 0:59:14.680
<v Speaker 2>Okay? Well, hey, you've got so many great options now,

0:59:15.320 --> 0:59:18.440
<v Speaker 2>or knock that conversation before it even starts.

0:59:19.560 --> 0:59:22.000
<v Speaker 1>I'm laughing here, Chris, because I'm probably laughing at myself

0:59:22.000 --> 0:59:24.160
<v Speaker 1>because I was probably those cops that we're going to

0:59:24.240 --> 0:59:26.880
<v Speaker 1>smash the door in six am and make a big impact.

0:59:27.120 --> 0:59:30.840
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, that's that's exactly the type of thing I

0:59:30.880 --> 0:59:33.840
<v Speaker 1>think that a unit like yours can bring to investigators,

0:59:33.880 --> 0:59:36.840
<v Speaker 1>just that different perspective because we might have been working

0:59:36.880 --> 0:59:39.280
<v Speaker 1>on for three months and we're so hard. We are

0:59:39.360 --> 0:59:41.240
<v Speaker 1>going to catch these guys and we're going to hit

0:59:41.240 --> 0:59:44.440
<v Speaker 1>them hard. And then but why won't they talk to us?

0:59:44.640 --> 0:59:48.360
<v Speaker 2>Oh, we're thinking I've done it too earlier, and you

0:59:48.440 --> 0:59:51.400
<v Speaker 2>go really show him. I'm going to really know what

0:59:51.440 --> 0:59:53.600
<v Speaker 2>he's done is wrong because I'm going to go in

0:59:53.640 --> 0:59:56.360
<v Speaker 2>at six am and then you know, man, when he

0:59:56.440 --> 0:59:58.320
<v Speaker 2>sits in that cell, he's really going to be steering

0:59:58.320 --> 1:00:02.920
<v Speaker 2>things over and diferent perspectives. No, he's not. He's been

1:00:02.960 --> 1:00:05.560
<v Speaker 2>in itself so many times. There is nothing you can

1:00:05.600 --> 1:00:08.080
<v Speaker 2>do that he hasn't seen before. In fact, the way

1:00:08.080 --> 1:00:10.480
<v Speaker 2>he is is probably the result of police treating him

1:00:10.480 --> 1:00:12.720
<v Speaker 2>like that for so many years. So why don't we

1:00:12.800 --> 1:00:15.760
<v Speaker 2>just do this a little bit different and I don't know,

1:00:15.800 --> 1:00:18.439
<v Speaker 2>treat them like an ordinary person because that's the way

1:00:18.480 --> 1:00:21.040
<v Speaker 2>that we should be treating people. And so do we

1:00:21.080 --> 1:00:23.000
<v Speaker 2>need to do ABC and D. Why don't we just

1:00:23.080 --> 1:00:24.160
<v Speaker 2>do it this other way instead?

1:00:24.320 --> 1:00:27.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there's definitely And that's a fascinating part about the

1:00:27.680 --> 1:00:31.080
<v Speaker 1>strategies and the direction you take it. Let's have a

1:00:31.120 --> 1:00:34.160
<v Speaker 1>break now, when we come back, we'll dissect more of

1:00:34.480 --> 1:00:37.000
<v Speaker 1>what the unit does and try to give people an

1:00:37.080 --> 1:00:40.400
<v Speaker 1>understanding of how it actually actually works. So if we

1:00:40.440 --> 1:00:42.280
<v Speaker 1>have a break and we'll come back for a part

1:00:42.320 --> 1:00:42.480
<v Speaker 1>two