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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: I've always found trying to understand the mind of a

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Speaker 1: criminal a useful tool in solving crimes. Getting into the

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Speaker 1: mind of a criminal can also prevent crimes before they occur.

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Speaker 1: It's a fascinating part of being a detective. That's why

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Speaker 1: i'd about talking to today's guest Detective Senior Sergeant Chris Blake.

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Speaker 1: Chris is a serving member of the New Zealand Police

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Speaker 1: Force and he is the manager of the Behavioral Science Unit,

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Speaker 1: a unit that was modeled on a similar unit established

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Speaker 1: by the FBI. Chris's role is to ensure his team

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Speaker 1: of psychologists and analysts provide support to investigators to solve

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Speaker 1: and prevent serious crimes. Today we talked about the history

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Speaker 1: of the unit, Chris's own policing career, some interesting cases,

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Speaker 1: and how the skills his unit provide assists investigators. This

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Speaker 1: is real life mind Hunter stuff. You're going to enjoy it.

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Speaker 1: Chris Blake, Welcome to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Well, thanks, Garry, it's a pleasure to be here.

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Speaker 1: Well, I know how hard it can be for a

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Speaker 1: serving police officer to get permission and approval to do

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Speaker 1: anything in the media or come on a podcast like this,

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Speaker 1: so I appreciate you making the effort.

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Speaker 2: No nowhere is at all. Hopefully we can do it.

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Speaker 1: Justice Parameters, Well, I think it's good for people to

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Speaker 1: hear from serving police officer as a public because people's

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Speaker 1: perception of what police are all about and it's very

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Speaker 1: sort of black and white world. Are they the cops

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Speaker 1: are the cops, And it's good to put a human

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Speaker 1: face to what we actually do. Yeah, absolutely, house things

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Speaker 1: in New Zealand, police force because over here across the country,

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Speaker 1: like I'm from New South Wales and we have the

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Speaker 1: state police and the federal police, but we're really struggling

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Speaker 1: to get people to join the police at the moment.

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Speaker 1: Are you experiencing the same thing over in New Zealand?

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Speaker 2: Not that I can gather. I think almost the opposite.

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Speaker 2: They seem to be pumping the wings through the college,

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Speaker 2: so I'm not sure what's behind that. I think there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of people hunting for jobs, and it's a

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Speaker 2: secure job for life if you want it, so it's

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Speaker 2: actually quite attractive at the moment for a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: I think, well, I think in today's day and age,

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Speaker 1: having a secure job is a very good thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, I'm not qualified to do anything else, so

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Speaker 2: I can't afford to lose my job. So I think

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Speaker 2: a lot of people that do leave, Yeah, I find

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Speaker 2: that they do come back eventually.

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Speaker 1: I found that over the years with people I knew

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Speaker 1: that just hit the wall and I'm out of here.

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Speaker 1: I hate this job. There's an easier life. There's a

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Speaker 1: better life out there. If I put it on a

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Speaker 1: percentage basis, I reckon ninety percent. Tried to get back

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Speaker 1: in at some stage.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, unless you find something fantastic that just takes

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Speaker 2: off and that's you. Then year people eventually go, actually,

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Speaker 2: that wasn't that bad.

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Speaker 1: Well, and the beauty of being a cop, and I've

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Speaker 1: had a few New Zealand cops on and so I

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Speaker 1: get the understanding of the way you guys operate, and

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Speaker 1: it's not this similar to how we operate. But the

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Speaker 1: diversity of roles that you can get in policing is

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Speaker 1: it's like a small gas board, isn't it. Oh it is.

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Speaker 2: You could probably think of any job you could do

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Speaker 2: outside and most of them on some way, shape or form,

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Speaker 2: you can probably find inside the police. You know. If

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Speaker 2: you want to be a commercial diver, well there's a

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Speaker 2: dive squad. You want to fly helicopters, well you could

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Speaker 2: get a job on the police helicopter, you know, and

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Speaker 2: everything in between. So it's pretty incredible.

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Speaker 1: No, Well, I'm always like to speak to people that

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Speaker 1: like their job when they're they're police officers. You've found

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Speaker 1: yourself in a I'm slightly jealous because I think it'd

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Speaker 1: be fascinating the role that you've got now heading up

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Speaker 1: the Behavioral Science Unit of New Zealand police. That must

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Speaker 1: have been something that you were very excited about getting

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Speaker 1: that role. Oh yeah, and it.

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Speaker 2: Sort of stumbled into it. It was a job I

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Speaker 2: didn't really want for another ten years. I wanted to

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Speaker 2: enjoy what I was doing, learn a bit more, get

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Speaker 2: some qualifications. It was sort of like that pinnacle goal.

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Speaker 2: And then when they advertised it, I wasn't even going

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Speaker 2: to apply, and my wife suggests that I should, so

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Speaker 2: that I throw my name and the hat and maybe

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Speaker 2: next time they'll take a look at you. And then

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Speaker 2: I got it. So I found myself going, this is insane.

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Speaker 2: How do I do this job? And totally reliant on

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Speaker 2: the staff, the experts there to show me the.

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Speaker 1: Rope because you were a detective before then that I

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Speaker 1: always liked and I work very closely with a psychologist

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Speaker 1: in my time in homicide, doctor Sarah Yull, and I

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Speaker 1: found it fascinating getting a different perspective on the way

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Speaker 1: to approach investigations.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. It is looking from that behavioral angle and

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Speaker 2: the steps that the offender has taken, rather than what

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Speaker 2: as detectives we do, which is considering everything from a

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Speaker 2: physical evidence sort of perspective. Yeah, quite different. But does

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Speaker 2: incorporate a lot of the similar sorts of things. You know,

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Speaker 2: they are informed by the scene examinations and the suspect

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Speaker 2: interviews and all that side of it very much looking

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Speaker 2: at the offender and where they've come from, why they

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Speaker 2: did what they did, how they did it, where they're going.

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Speaker 1: Well, it adds another tool to investigations and for people

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Speaker 1: that don't fully appreciate what the role of that unit

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Speaker 1: you're heading up at the moment, I just this is

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Speaker 1: the description of the role that they play. Help advance

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Speaker 1: police investigations by providing operational psychology advice. Psychological advice, I

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Speaker 1: should say, help police to better understand criminal behavior and

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Speaker 1: the personalities of the people they deal with. Consult the

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Speaker 1: high profile, complex and difficult to solve investigations where circumstances

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Speaker 1: are often distressing, and the material graphic help provide profiles

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Speaker 1: of unidentified offenders, complete indirect personality assessments, and conduct risk

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Speaker 1: assessments across multiple domains. Now, I know we've got a

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Speaker 1: lot of true crime listeners that tune into this, and

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Speaker 1: then people who are fascinated by crime. I think that

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Speaker 1: would be really hitting the mark on the interesting aspect

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Speaker 1: of criminal investigation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And you know, it's come a long way

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Speaker 2: since the nineteen eighties and the days of mind Hunter. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and you know, no longer are we going, you know, hey,

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Speaker 2: that's your guy. But there's now been so much science

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Speaker 2: between now I'm in then Now they can certainly go

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Speaker 2: this is your type of guy, yeah, and this is

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Speaker 2: how to go about looking for him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, we had were very Fortunately. I was so

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Speaker 1: excited as like a little school kid. Doctor Anne Burgess

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Speaker 1: who worked with John Douglas in the establishment of the

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Speaker 1: FBI and the unit they had there tied in with

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Speaker 1: the mind Hunter TV series that portrayed the work that

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Speaker 1: they did, and it was fascinating getting her perspective on

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Speaker 1: how it helped advance criminal investigations. So further on in

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Speaker 1: the podcast, we're going to break it down the type

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Speaker 1: of things that Ken the unit can do. But I

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Speaker 1: just want to talk a little bit about yourself first

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Speaker 1: up and find out Okay, but what made you join

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Speaker 1: the police to start with? You grew up in whereabouts

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Speaker 1: in New Zealand? Did you grow up in?

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Speaker 2: I grew up in Auckland on the North Shore, So

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Speaker 2: that's right. Now I've come a really long way.

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Speaker 1: I think like just keep moving forward there. So what

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Speaker 1: inspired you to join the police.

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Speaker 2: It's a long story and a short one. So I

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Speaker 2: never thought about being a cop. When I was younger,

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Speaker 2: I was pilot and the Air Force ditched our a

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Speaker 2: fighter squadron when I was a young teenager and then, yeah,

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Speaker 2: my maths and physics scores were absolutely hopeless, so I

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Speaker 2: never had an open hell of getting into the Air Force.

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Speaker 1: Just kind of off there. Just say that they scrapped

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Speaker 1: the fire the squadron. That's the only thing that held

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Speaker 1: you back.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was definitely destined for that. Yeah, it wasn't

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Speaker 2: because I was thick, but I ended up joining. A

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Speaker 2: couple of things happened while I was at high school

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Speaker 2: that probably, on reflection, did impact where I end up,

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Speaker 2: and one of those was Columbine in nineteen ninety nine.

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Speaker 2: So I was thirteen when that happened in the States,

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Speaker 2: a world away, but massive impact given the media coverage

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Speaker 2: it had, right, and I just couldn't wrap my head around,

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Speaker 2: you know, there's kids shooting kids, and mum a kid,

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Speaker 2: so a lot of thoughts around that. And then a

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Speaker 2: year two years later, September eleven, so right at the

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Speaker 2: time where I'm thinking, what should I be doing with

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Speaker 2: my life? All my mates want to be engineers and

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Speaker 2: counts and doctors, and they've got this life plan. I'm going, actually,

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Speaker 2: there's more to the world than sitting on earning money.

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Speaker 2: So after my pilot dreams were shot down by my

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Speaker 2: lack of brain, I ended up joining the Army Reserve

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Speaker 2: into the infantry and some awesome stuff in there, you know,

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Speaker 2: just the that mindset of we're just going to do this,

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Speaker 2: synk it through it, no matter what brilliant brilliance training.

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Speaker 2: But it definitely made me think I don't want to

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Speaker 2: be wet, cold, tired and hungry twenty four to seven

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Speaker 2: for the rest of my life. So I ended up

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Speaker 2: going what should I be doing? Full time? And the

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Speaker 2: police then kind of came up as a pretty sound

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Speaker 2: secondary option. So it wasn't until Army it even considered it.

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Speaker 2: There are a few cops in the Army Reserves with

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Speaker 2: me and they talked fondly about it. So I thought,

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Speaker 2: I'll get that a crack for a couple of years

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Speaker 2: and then do something else, And almost twenty years on,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure there.

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Speaker 1: Well, maybe it was destinate choosing that path. What was

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Speaker 1: it about the crimes that you talked of that fascinated

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Speaker 1: you because you would have only been a teenager at

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Speaker 1: that stage. What was it that really resonated with you

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Speaker 1: when you saw the reports of Colombine and ninety eleven?

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Speaker 1: What was it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean I just couldn't. I couldn't really understand it, right,

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Speaker 2: you know, being thirteen and not knowing anything about psychology,

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Speaker 2: let alone grievance and all of that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 2: It just couldn't, for the life of me gather you know,

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Speaker 2: you'd heard about terrorism and these words, and that people

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Speaker 2: shoot people and murderers, but they have two kids walking

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Speaker 2: to a school and do that. It was so bizarre

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Speaker 2: to me. And so you know, every article I could find,

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Speaker 2: I'd be reading about it because I was just interested.

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Speaker 2: And I think it took them a very long time

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Speaker 2: to even unpack a lot of the wires behind that.

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Speaker 2: And as you know, Gary, even if you get all

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Speaker 2: the wires, it still doesn't really make a lot of sense.

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Speaker 1: Nice.

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Speaker 2: You know, when there are people around that have seen

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Speaker 2: things and there's a bit of leakage, and there are

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Speaker 2: people that are friends with these guys, and you just go,

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Speaker 2: how does this happen? I mean, it's not happening all

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Speaker 2: the time.

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Speaker 1: It's quite frightening what's happening. And we had Nathan Brooks

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Speaker 1: on doctor Nathan Brooks who works in your unit and

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Speaker 1: talking about crime, and even Am Burgess talking about where

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Speaker 1: the future of crime could be. And these lone actors

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Speaker 1: are definitely a concern, and it's just it feels volatile.

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Speaker 1: I think all communities are feeling a little bit vulnerable

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Speaker 1: for various reasons. But the ideologies that seem to be

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Speaker 1: getting more extreme and the way that way that people react.

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Speaker 1: Just wind it back a little bit to the Army reserves.

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Speaker 1: You said it was good in that you've got to

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Speaker 1: address problems. Okay, we're going to overcome this, and that

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Speaker 1: I honestly think that the military perceived as sort of

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Speaker 1: concrete thinkers in just a perception of the military that

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Speaker 1: they don't open their minds up to other alternatives. My

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Speaker 1: experience of it, my observations of it, it's so far

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Speaker 1: from the truth. It's not funny.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, i'd agree with that. I think, you know,

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Speaker 2: the tactics involved, they're pretty conferent because they have to be.

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Speaker 2: Everyone's got to know what they're doing. If you're shot

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Speaker 2: at and you're going to react to that. Everyone needs

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Speaker 2: to know what they're supposed to do. But in terms

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Speaker 2: of innovating and overcoming and adapting, Yeah, that's a component

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Speaker 2: to it, right, And that's probably the unseen stuff that

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Speaker 2: people don't really consider. They just see the tactics or

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Speaker 2: that concrete side of it, and that colors the whole

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Speaker 2: idea of it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an interesting view. I even saw it in

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Speaker 1: policing because I spent some time in tactical policing and

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Speaker 1: also criminal investigations, and the criminal investigators were always paying

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Speaker 1: out on the tactical dudes that they're just the knuckle

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Speaker 1: draggers and all that. But I can honestly say when

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Speaker 1: I've worked with them, sometimes you're sitting in the back

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Speaker 1: of a vent or sometimes you do briefing or waiting

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Speaker 1: or waiting for the briefing, and you'd have some quite

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Speaker 1: intellectual conversations. And I think it would surprise people because

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Speaker 1: they just see the blikes running around in the black

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Speaker 1: overalls and helmet on their head and carrying big guns

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Speaker 1: and they think, Okay, these guys are just one dimensional,

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Speaker 1: but it's so far from the truth.

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Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, And like over here, we're our Special Tactics Group,

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Speaker 2: are our full time tactical team. But for years it's

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Speaker 2: slightly changed. Now we've got this new tactical response model

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Speaker 2: where you can be a full time operator but not

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Speaker 2: a the STG. But for so long at the arm

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Speaker 2: Offender Squad and that was of part timers, so you

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Speaker 2: had your day job, so you know, they'd be working

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Speaker 2: with you in the CIB one day and you could

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Speaker 2: be at a job with them and they're in their

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Speaker 2: black gear and yeah, you're so right, like some of

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Speaker 2: the questions in serious crime briefings that coming from those

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Speaker 2: aoskuys sitting there and man, I don't even consider that,

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Speaker 2: And I'm supposed to be running this show. Why do

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Speaker 2: you ask me that I hadn't even thought about that? So, yeah, absolutely,

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Speaker 2: what a diverse group of guys and girls.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, policing the academy, where were you first stationed and

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Speaker 1: your academy experience. And then I think it's always interesting

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Speaker 1: in guests, no matter where their careers progressed in the policing,

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Speaker 1: there's always something that's embedded in their mind from the

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Speaker 1: early times in their policing because it's quite confronting when

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Speaker 1: you walk out of the academy and you wear a

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Speaker 1: new uniform and you're actually a police officer. What were

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Speaker 1: you What were your memories of coming out of the

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Speaker 1: academy and hitting the streets.

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Speaker 2: Just getting thrown into it. Really, my memory is I

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Speaker 2: had no idea what was going on. Leis College was

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Speaker 2: five months and I loved that right coming out of

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Speaker 2: the army. It was like a holiday in terms of

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Speaker 2: the residential accommodation and how the days went, and people

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Speaker 2: that had never experienced that before. It was quite a

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Speaker 2: foreign environment for sure, But for me, I just love

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Speaker 2: every second of it and just the camaraderie of it.

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Speaker 2: It was awesome. But I popped out the end just going, actually,

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Speaker 2: so how do we do this again? Because the way

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Speaker 2: that we were taught was, and no one's fault at all.

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Speaker 2: You've got to be taught some really important stuff at college.

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Speaker 2: You've got to be taught how to affect and arrest

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Speaker 2: legally and I guess look after yourself and your mates,

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Speaker 2: so how to use all those tactical options, and that's

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Speaker 2: probably the core stuff. So you get pumped full of

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Speaker 2: that for five months, you pop out, and then you

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Speaker 2: go you're going to domestics, talking to people that have

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Speaker 2: been married for forty years that have had an argument.

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Speaker 2: You're going what I supposed to do here? So those

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Speaker 2: earlier years coming out were it was just a constant abuse,

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Speaker 2: you know, because I looked ten years old. You know

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Speaker 2: what was this bring your kid to work day?

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Speaker 1: Just constantly Yeah you on the yeah exactly.

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Speaker 2: So just finding your feet, bridging that gap between college

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Speaker 2: and all the really important stuff they have to teach

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Speaker 2: you and baptism. Fire out there on the street, learning

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Speaker 2: by doing, and I guess ballsing a few things up

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Speaker 2: on the way, learning from the people you're dealing with

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Speaker 2: in your colleagues.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you do get thrown in the deep end. And

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Speaker 1: I caution people when they see police make a mistake that,

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Speaker 1: you know, within six months of me being out of

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Speaker 1: the academy, I would as a senior person on the car.

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Speaker 1: So I'm the one making the decisions. And sometimes you're

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Speaker 1: looking at people and they've got a uniform on. Then

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Speaker 1: you think they've got all this experience and they're just yeah,

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Speaker 1: babes in the woods.

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Speaker 2: Really, Oh yeah, I've got so much respect now, you know,

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Speaker 2: Like people hang around for a while and then you move.

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Speaker 2: You know, you might join the CIB or a technical

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Speaker 2: group career. But I look back now and I look

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Speaker 2: at how it's even changed in the nineteen years since

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Speaker 2: I came out of college, and man, I've got so

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Speaker 2: much respect for the guys and girls on the front

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Speaker 2: line now. Just decisions they have to make now I

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Speaker 2: just go far out. Yeah, it's just completely changed. And

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Speaker 2: they're doing it with only a couple of months on

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Speaker 2: the street after college as well. It's incredible.

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Speaker 1: And I think there's more accountability now with social media,

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Speaker 1: Like if we made a mistake. I know, when I

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Speaker 1: went through the early stages of policing, it wasn't held

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Speaker 1: up to public ridicule. It was someone would pull you

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Speaker 1: aside and go, no, that's not how we do this,

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Speaker 1: and you learn on the job. Now if you make

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Speaker 1: a mistake, you become a TikTok sensation and yeah, you're humiliated.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of pressure.

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Speaker 2: Totally, and and I sort of sit on the fence

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Speaker 2: there because I go, you know, we don't want to

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Speaker 2: go the way of Russia. So you know, having intrusive

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Speaker 2: scrutiny and criticism of enforcement as fantastic and we should.

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Speaker 2: But on the other hand, you go. Yeah, like just

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Speaker 2: sick and guessing themselves all the time, because if someone's filming,

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Speaker 2: are they going well, if that little bit got taken

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Speaker 2: out of context, that's going to look bad. Yeah, what

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Speaker 2: a crazy twenty first century world.

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Speaker 1: I don't mind the accountability. Like the police, we need

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Speaker 1: to be accountable, but there also needs to be a

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Speaker 1: level of putting in perspective and understand the context of

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Speaker 1: what's happening, like when they see someone yelling at someone,

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Speaker 1: they don't know what the lead up to that has been.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, there's still as police, we've got to work

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Speaker 1: within the parameters that were allowed to But yeah, accountability, yes,

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Speaker 1: but also let's give a little bit of latitude understanding

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Speaker 1: that people are learning to do their job as well.

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Speaker 2: That's right and perspective, right, Like where I came out

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Speaker 2: of college, you know, there are only a couple of

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Speaker 2: frontline cars out on a night shift. You know, sometimes

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Speaker 2: you just have to get the job done quickly because

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Speaker 2: you've got ten other more important jobs waiting. So you

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Speaker 2: might say something that on reflection, you know, looks bad,

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Speaker 2: but you just kind of move on to the next

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Speaker 2: most important thing. And that that's just stuff that people

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Speaker 2: don't see you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what how long did you stay in uniform before

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Speaker 1: you went into playing clothes?

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Speaker 2: Not very long, so there's only three years for me,

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Speaker 2: And it was around about that time where it was

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Speaker 2: becoming more common to go quicker. But you know, there

368
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Speaker 2: was definitely a list on the whiteboard of the d

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Speaker 2: S and you know, you were ninth cab off the

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Speaker 2: rank and it was going to take you a couple

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Speaker 2: of years to get there. So it was just at

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Speaker 2: the turning point of that. So I was quite lucky

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Speaker 2: I got into that to a playing clothes volume crime

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Speaker 2: drug squad that was not down to me at all.

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Speaker 2: There's a couple of guys there that vouched for me,

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Speaker 2: and I landed that gig. And then there that was

377
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Speaker 2: sort of the stepping stone. Everyone that was on that

378
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Speaker 2: team got sort of encouraged to join the CIB. So

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Speaker 2: I just didn't really have any desire even then, but

380
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Speaker 2: just sort of got swept up in that and went

381
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Speaker 2: along for the ride.

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Speaker 1: And what did you find that something must have triggered

383
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Speaker 1: your interest in working in COB What was it that

384
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Speaker 1: you found interesting about that aspect of pleasing Yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Guess I started to like what I initially didn't. When

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Speaker 2: I was in the uniform. You know, you walk past

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Speaker 2: the interview suite and you'd see the detectives and you'd go,

388
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Speaker 2: that sounds horrible. I don't want to be sitting into

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Speaker 2: your room for hours. Or you'd be standing on a

390
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Speaker 2: corner in a crime scene and the poor detectives are

391
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Speaker 2: in there for days, and you'd go, I love my job,

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Speaker 2: just going job to job, job. And it wasn't until

393
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Speaker 2: on that plane, closed unit, just sitting down talking to

394
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Speaker 2: Irisi arrested and just going, well, there's so much more

395
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Speaker 2: to this, and this isn't black and white, this is gray.

396
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Speaker 2: And I think it was just dealing with people for

397
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Speaker 2: longer periods of time, which, okay, this is actually what

398
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Speaker 2: the CIB is about. We're actually spending more time doing

399
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Speaker 2: the same things so that we get that better chance

400
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Speaker 2: of a good outcome. And I think that's where I

401
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Speaker 2: sort of had that light bulb moment and went, Okay,

402
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Speaker 2: this just makes sense. Now I'm going to get better

403
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Speaker 2: at my job if I go down this pathway, whether

404
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Speaker 2: I circle back to uniform or not. So yeah, it

405
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Speaker 2: was sort of a no brainer.

406
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Speaker 1: We had had a chat a week or so ago

407
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Speaker 1: and you were talking about one case that you got

408
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Speaker 1: called to called out to a murder and you didn't

409
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Speaker 1: have many details and you had to speak to the

410
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Speaker 1: suspect then custody. Tell me what you learned about that

411
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Speaker 1: particular matter, and that sort of change your view on

412
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Speaker 1: what's important in that interview room. You were talking about

413
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Speaker 1: interview rooms. What was that case? What were the circumstances there?

414
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Speaker 1: Because I found that fascinating when you were telling me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so there must have been about around about twenty twelve,

416
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Speaker 2: I think or just after, but a lady called Jasmine

417
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Speaker 2: Cooper got killed up in Tahana, which is a little

418
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Speaker 2: town right at the north northern boundary of Auckland. I

419
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Speaker 2: guess before you head into Northland. And I've just come

420
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Speaker 2: off a advanced interviewing course and that had taught us

421
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Speaker 2: a lot about sort of folks zeroing in on forgetting

422
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Speaker 2: about the wider pressures of homicide investigations and court and

423
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Speaker 2: who's going to be watching and all that kind of stuff,

424
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Speaker 2: and it's focusing it and all an interviewers as a

425
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Speaker 2: conversation with someone else, you don't have to know everything

426
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Speaker 2: before you go into it. And that was another light

427
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 2: bulb moment for me, and I think even to this day,

428
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Speaker 2: you know, by and large, policing hasn't caught up with that.

429
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Speaker 1: You know.

430
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Speaker 2: It's there's so much pressure to do the tick box

431
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Speaker 2: one to twenty steps in a robotic fashion because that's

432
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Speaker 2: the way, that the easiest way to teach it. Yeah,

433
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Speaker 2: and we go, I don't know anything about this. How

434
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Speaker 2: am I gonna get his free recall and write all

435
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Speaker 2: my questions down and make sure I asked them right

436
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:17,760
Speaker 2: that With this one, I couldn't even do a plan

437
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 2: because I don't know anything about it. So I get this.

438
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 2: I'm asleep and I get a call from the DC

439
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:25,280
Speaker 2: here and he just goes, you see, to go up

440
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,399
Speaker 2: to Tihana And I'm like, cool, where's that And he's like,

441
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,639
Speaker 2: it's about an hour and a bit north. The guys

442
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,520
Speaker 2: have locked him up, so he's in the cells. Run assault,

443
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:36,879
Speaker 2: but that's it, and he's been in the cell for

444
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,879
Speaker 2: about an hour. He says, just go up and interview him.

445
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 2: And I'm like, on what, well he's he's killed his

446
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 2: ex partner and I'm going, oh, has he Well, we

447
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 2: don't even know. So we race up there thinking it

448
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,200
Speaker 2: over and get up there and there's nothing to go on,

449
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:55,680
Speaker 2: so we just stuff that, let's just go and then

450
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 2: have a chat to him, because we're gonna have to

451
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,679
Speaker 2: do that anyway. That's exactly what we did, and we

452
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,199
Speaker 2: just talkalked about nothing for a couple of hours in

453
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 2: the interview room because there was nothing I knew about

454
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 2: the case to raise. He denied it all, of course,

455
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,280
Speaker 2: and after a couple of hours he just sits there

456
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:12,879
Speaker 2: and he just goes, well, you know, I guess I

457
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 2: should probably tell you the truth now, and then he

458
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,480
Speaker 2: gives us a blow by blow of the entire incident,

459
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 2: absolute tragic family harm argument that his anger got the

460
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 2: better of him and and he's killed his ex partner

461
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,640
Speaker 2: and gave it an incredible detail. And I walked away

462
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,680
Speaker 2: from that just going, we really need to get better

463
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 2: at trying, you know, rather than just sort of going, oh,

464
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 2: you don't want to make a statement, do you, and

465
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 2: then walking away, which I think there is a little

466
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 2: bit these days because there's so much pressure and a

467
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 2: million things to do, it's just actually going I can

468
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 2: just sit with this person and just chat unless it

469
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:51,680
Speaker 2: goes and if they're going to sit in the room

470
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,400
Speaker 2: with me and chat hey, happy days. Who knows whether

471
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,160
Speaker 2: that's going to lead to getting any kind of truth

472
00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,159
Speaker 2: out of them, but we'll give it a go, and

473
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 2: you just never know where that's going to lead. So

474
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,359
Speaker 2: that taught me that as don't be too quick just

475
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 2: to shoot yourself on the foot and say, I don't

476
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:07,719
Speaker 2: really have much to say here, let's go.

477
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 1: I think a couple of points that you've made there,

478
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 1: just the fact that you prepared to sit down and

479
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 1: chat with someone and get that rapport happening. Get them

480
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 1: to feel comfortable, because someone feels comfortable if you just

481
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 1: especially you're in an interview room, sit down, just have

482
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 1: a conversation. You can talk on the proof of stuff

483
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 1: and all that, let them feel comfortable and you start

484
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 1: to get that relationship that develops relationship. People get shocked

485
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 1: by what do you mean relationship? I think if you're

486
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 1: in a room with someone long enough for a relationship

487
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,679
Speaker 1: of what context of a relationship? Who knows who cares?

488
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 1: But a relationship, a connection occurs. I saw a lot

489
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:51,160
Speaker 1: of cops as you identified there, so they're not going

490
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 1: to talk, not going to try. And I would see

491
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 1: people that I looked up to mentors of mine in

492
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 1: the way that they operated in the interview room. And

493
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 1: I'd like to to think I did it myself throughout

494
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 1: my career or a latter part of my career, where

495
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,680
Speaker 1: I'd go into the interview room and walk out and go, yeah,

496
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,919
Speaker 1: they've confessed, and people think what's gone on in the

497
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 1: interview room? They look like you've done something wrong and

498
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:19,360
Speaker 1: invariably sitting down talking And I also say to people this,

499
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,479
Speaker 1: So I think there's a lot of confessions come on

500
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 1: this basis. Think of the worst thing you've ever done

501
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,679
Speaker 1: and holding that just on your own. You want to

502
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,920
Speaker 1: tell someone, you want to get it off your chest.

503
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 1: Quite often, I found that people made confessions in the

504
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,119
Speaker 1: interview room because they wanted to unburden themselves with what

505
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 1: they were trying to hide. So, yeah, it's amazing what

506
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 1: can come out of the interview room if you're prepared

507
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 1: to sit there.

508
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,439
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and you know there's so much focus on and rightly,

509
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 2: so there's hyper focus on all the safeguards these days,

510
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 2: right and that police have screwed it up for so

511
00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 2: many years and interviewed illegally, appressively, unfeeling. Now we have

512
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 2: a wealth of guidance on how to do it right.

513
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 2: And there's so much of that and that all has

514
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,439
Speaker 2: to be taught that they don't actually teach how to

515
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 2: actually have the conversation like a normal person. Everyone's so

516
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,679
Speaker 2: focused on robotically doing the rights and the room set up,

517
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 2: and I'm going through this list and I've got my

518
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 2: interview plan and this is going to trial, and the

519
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 2: holy hell people are going to watch me, and I

520
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 2: need to make sure that I, you know, the offender

521
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 2: is bad because cops occurred, and there's black and white

522
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,360
Speaker 2: and that's what the jury is going to think, and

523
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 2: all of that stuff just colors the whole interview. And

524
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 2: it's just like, you can do all that stuff and

525
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 2: still just actually have a normal conversation without judgment, and

526
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 2: then the conversation starts flowing. And that's that's what needs

527
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 2: to change in the in the training side of things,

528
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 2: it's just be yourself, be normal, and there's no tricks

529
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 2: involved in it.

530
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 1: It's human nature. It allow human nature. Some of the

531
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 1: preambles we had to read on before the recording. It

532
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 1: evolved over the years because when recording came in, the

533
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,880
Speaker 1: electronic recording of interviews, but sometimes you'd have to you'd

534
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 1: sit there and you'd read out a page verbatim and

535
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 1: you see the person seeing there going what's going on?

536
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 1: And it was hard to explain even what you were

537
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: reading out. There were so many do you agree with this?

538
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: And this? And it was just it was crazy. But yes,

539
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: I think, and I'd like to put everything in front

540
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: of the jury, you know, when it's said and done.

541
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 1: Put it all in front, not this sanitized version of Okay,

542
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 1: this is what said, and I am now going to

543
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: caution you. Yeah, we get that, you've got to put

544
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 1: the caution in and you've got to protect people's rights,

545
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 1: but let people see what actually goes on and then

546
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 1: form their own views from whether it was oppressive like

547
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 1: in New South Wales. You no threat, promise or inducement.

548
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,400
Speaker 1: I understand that, but sitting talking to someone can't really

549
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,880
Speaker 1: fit into the threat, promise or inducement. You're just having

550
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: a conversation with a person. The other point that you

551
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 1: made that the way interviewing is people are taught to interview,

552
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 1: like the list of questions, a series of questions. Mistakes

553
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 1: I've seen made when I'm observing someone doing and I

554
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,359
Speaker 1: probably did it myself. You'll have your twenty questions that

555
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,959
Speaker 1: you want to get out. I'm sitting here asking you

556
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: and I'm just I've asked that question. I've asked that question,

557
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,879
Speaker 1: but you've probably given an ambiguous answer that means nothing

558
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: when it comes to court anyway. You've got to actually

559
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 1: listen to what the person is saying and then expand

560
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 1: on it if you need to expand on it or clarify.

561
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 2: So that's right, and being comfortable like going around in

562
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 2: circles and coming back to things, you know, like that

563
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 2: Peace model of interviewing is fantastic. What a great guy.

564
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 2: And you get the free recall first, then you ask

565
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 2: some questions you want to ask, and then it gets

566
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 2: a bit more adversarial towards the end. But you know,

567
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 2: you can get caught up and the questions you want

568
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 2: to ask and you go, we got that one out,

569
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 2: let's move on to the next. And in person you're

570
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 2: interviewing introduces something from left field. You know, you go, well,

571
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 2: that doesn't compete with my plan. Not shut up enough

572
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 2: about that, I want to do my thing, and actually

573
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 2: you're just killing the conversation. And people just need to

574
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 2: be comfortable going, yeah, I'm going to go wherever you

575
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 2: take me if you want to talk about that one

576
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 2: hundred percent, let's talk about that. Mother doesn't matter. I

577
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 2: can come back to that latter. I joined the police

578
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 2: knowing it's going to be like this, so I shouldn't

579
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 2: bock off, you know, five minutes ago.

580
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 1: And I was given some good advice very early in

581
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 1: that you come into the interview room, you control the

582
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 1: pace of the interview room because you see some interviews

583
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: go off track and it's like the cops are losing

584
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: their way and oh, this is not going the plan.

585
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 1: You see it falling apart. You can stop the interview.

586
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 1: I'm just going to take a break now, step outside

587
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: and have a rethink about what the strategies are that

588
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: you get the approach. But I, from my point of view,

589
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 1: that was one of the most interesting parts of policing.

590
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: I love love the interview room. The pressure was on,

591
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: but I did love the interview room because quite often

592
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 1: you'd be on a lengthy investigation and it was all

593
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,719
Speaker 1: coming to the crunch in the next six or so

594
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 1: hours that you spending the interview room speaking to the person.

595
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: So fascinating area of policing.

596
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent something I still really enjoy. You know,

597
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 2: it's just being able to sit in that room with

598
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 2: someone and just go whatever reasons that we're here talking.

599
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 2: You know, that single reason doesn't color your whole life,

600
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 2: you know. And I'm happy to sit in that room

601
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 2: and get to know somebody and all of the good

602
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 2: parts of their life as well as the reason we

603
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 2: hear and not have fear that I'm going to be

604
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 2: judged harshly by the public for looking like I'm having

605
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 2: a nice conversation with a murderer. Right, we should feel

606
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 2: that pressure there. We're still doing our job, but we

607
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 2: don't be a complete dick to the person we're sitting

608
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 2: across the table from.

609
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 1: Well, I've got it. Well, i'll save it. But I've

610
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: got a quote that I've pulled out of some of

611
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,479
Speaker 1: the material I've got on of what you've said about

612
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 1: the way that you look at policing them the way

613
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 1: it should be approached. It'll touch on what you're talking

614
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 1: about there, because it's it might be considered a fairly

615
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: liberal view of a police officer to say, yeah, oh, well,

616
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 1: I'm not going to judge judge the person, and but

617
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 1: you're doing your job and I think you get better results.

618
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: But we'll explore that a little bit a little bit

619
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 1: further in the in the podcast Criminal Informants. Did you

620
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: get to work with a lot of criminal informants in

621
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: your COB days.

622
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, And it's part of a part of the

623
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 2: business for the CIV right, And most of the time

624
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 2: it just falls naturally out of doing your job, and

625
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 2: it's that having a normal conversation, like we were just

626
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 2: talking about. So if you go to every search warrant

627
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 2: and every person your arrests and you're a complete deck,

628
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 2: they're not going to want to talk to you again. Yeah,

629
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 2: but it's just normal and you do your job, but

630
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 2: you're you're fair and you're reasonable, and then you find

631
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 2: when you run into those people again, which you often.

632
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 1: Do, yeah, invariably.

633
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, you feel like you know them and

634
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 2: they feel like they know you a bit as well.

635
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 2: So then the conversation starts and that's just kind of

636
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 2: like part two of what you'd kept off earlier, and

637
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 2: so naturally a lot of those interactions would develop into

638
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 2: informant relationships. Yeah, and that's the way it's been for

639
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 2: decades usually, that's how it works in the CIBA.

640
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: Had any interesting informants if you've dealt with informants, you

641
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 1: would have had some interesting ones that turn your life

642
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 1: upside down, because it's sort of I describe it as

643
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: almost like a marriage or relationship when you're dealing with

644
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 1: an informant and whatever problems the informant has in their

645
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 1: life apparently you're responsible for and you're getting these late

646
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 1: night calls. Have you experience that without identifying the informant? Oh?

647
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, right, And it's partly because you know

648
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 2: you're rooting for these people, you know, and you feel

649
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 2: really I always used to feel really humble taking those

650
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 2: because I go, man, I've got a simpler existence and

651
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 2: I don't have much to complain about, really, and you're

652
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 2: talking to these people who their lives are so complicated,

653
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 2: and you just I couldn't even function if I was

654
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 2: living your life, and so yeah, and trying to do

655
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 2: right by them. And as a result, Yeah, you're taking

656
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 2: those calls late at night and listening to their whole life,

657
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 2: isn't it. That's what because you're in it. You're in

658
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 2: it with them their whole life. You're not just there

659
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 2: to listen to what they have to say about whatever

660
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 2: it is you might be interested in. You're invested, and

661
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 2: so when they're sick, you're listening to it and you're

662
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 2: trying to talk them through it. If they're fighting with

663
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 2: their partner, you're trying to talk them through it. And yeah,

664
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 2: it's full on.

665
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 1: Okay, Well I get you. You understand that because quite

666
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 1: often and a lot of my investigations involved informants. And yeah,

667
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 1: the defense quite rightly when the matter goes to court,

668
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: the tax of relationship with the informant and you know,

669
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: did you offer a discount their senses? Did you offer

670
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 1: them money, did you do this? Did you do that?

671
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 1: What they didn't understand and what defense never got through. No,

672
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 1: I just treated the person with respect because they were

673
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,399
Speaker 1: confused as to why is this person doing what they're

674
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 1: doing most occasions, in the serious situations, putting their lives

675
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 1: at risk. Why, Well, you haven't actually asked me. If

676
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: you ask me a general question, I'd say, because they

677
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 1: respect what I've done and I've given them respect, and

678
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 1: quite often they haven't had respect their whole life.

679
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 2: So it's absolutely right. And nobody is all bad and

680
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 2: no one's all good. Everyone sits somewhere in the middle.

681
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 2: So because you might cook myth you know, once, that's

682
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 2: not you twenty four to seven, and there's a whole

683
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 2: lot of crime that you don't agree with. And that's

684
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 2: the nuance that I think has missed when people look

685
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 2: objectively and they just go, it's black white. You're either

686
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:55,399
Speaker 2: police or you're not. If you've committed a crime, you're

687
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 2: a criminal. And that's the box you're in. Why would

688
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 2: you talk to anyone? And the police and they can't

689
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,720
Speaker 2: wrap their heads around it, but actually rued as people

690
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 2: and some of us get along.

691
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think the defense in their hard line

692
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 1: of thinking what are you offering this person and just

693
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 1: treating him with respect? One I had that probably and

694
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 1: I say this jokingly, it didn't go too far. It

695
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 1: was all documented the relationship. But I got a phone call.

696
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: I think it was in the weekend. I don't know

697
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,799
Speaker 1: about informants, but they always managed to reach out at

698
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 1: the most inappropriate time. So it's whenever you're just about

699
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 1: to do this or just about to do that, and

700
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 1: then you're going to put your life on hold. But

701
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 1: I've got a call from a hospital and this informant

702
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: had been admitted to hospital and asked, you know Gary

703
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: Jubilan yep and mentioned the name of the person. He's

704
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 1: in hospital. I said, Okay, why are you finding me?

705
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 1: We got you down. He's got you down as next

706
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 1: of kin. Okay, what's up with him in the hospital.

707
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,280
Speaker 1: He had a bag of heroin that he had ingested

708
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 1: that it bursts or whatever. So, yeah, these are the

709
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 1: situations you've got to deal with with informants. But I

710
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,879
Speaker 1: often say to police, cultivate. Now I hate the word

711
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 1: cultivate because it makes like you're manipulating the person. But

712
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: the importance of building relationships with criminal informants will help

713
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: you as a.

714
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 2: Detective, absolutely. And you see that other side of it, then, right,

715
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 2: you actually, unlike the suspect and of you, you see

716
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 2: the other side and their lives and some of the

717
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 2: things that are going on in your life start to

718
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 2: actually make sense, and you go, I actually kind of

719
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 2: get this now. If I had to walk in your shoes,

720
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 2: your whole childhood right through to now, I can understand

721
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 2: why these things are going on for you. And to

722
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 2: get that perspective as only helpful in the context of

723
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:49,439
Speaker 2: the rest of your job.

724
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about the behavioral science unit and a

725
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 1: bit of the history of it. And it was an

726
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 1: interesting history of the notes I've got here who was

727
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,879
Speaker 1: established in nineteen ninety eight, but between nineteen eighty two

728
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 1: and nineteen ninety six there were something like seventy stranger

729
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 1: based sexual assaults of the CURD and that was sort

730
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 1: of the genesis of how the unit evolved. Can you

731
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 1: talk us through that, because I found that fascinating. It'll

732
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 1: give people a real insight into what we're talking about

733
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 1: here and what value a unit like the one you're

734
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: managing brings to an investigation.

735
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So it was around about nineteen

736
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 2: ninety three, and so that our unit didn't exist, of course,

737
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 2: and Counties Manacau dealt with two intruder rapes, nighttime ones

738
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 2: with child victims, and you know, detectives being they're really

739
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 2: intelligent people that they are having two of those in

740
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 2: the space for a couple of weeks when they are

741
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,479
Speaker 2: not things that happen, being really intelligent that when man,

742
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 2: this might actually be linked or could potentially be the

743
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 2: same person. And so they kick off an investigation to

744
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,800
Speaker 2: try and find this unknown offender. And during the course

745
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 2: of that investigation, which was monumental, they reached out to

746
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,839
Speaker 2: reached out offshore to the FBI, who were the only

747
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 2: sort of people doing it at the time. I think

748
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 2: the UK were doing it but had a slightly different

749
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 2: take on it and brought back a bit of that

750
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 2: behavioral analysis to it and came up with this suspect

751
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 2: list of thousands of people. And so the investigation just

752
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 2: had to go around speaking to these thousands of people

753
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 2: and taking blood off them to see a sea food match.

754
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 2: So it wasn't for about eighteen months that they caught

755
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:42,839
Speaker 2: up with Joseph Thompson and so they lock him up

756
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 2: and it turns out that once they do that, he

757
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 2: confesses to a raft of these offenses stretching right back

758
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 2: into the early eighties. So he was operating undetected for

759
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,720
Speaker 2: that length of time, not undetected, and that the crimes

760
00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 2: were reported, but they were dealt with individually. You know, Okay,

761
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 2: rapis happened, I can't find any offenders here, and it

762
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 2: gets filed and then three months later that happens again,

763
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 2: and nobody had linked them all together because everyone's busy.

764
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 1: Right, So when Joseph Thompson was arrested, how many charges

765
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 1: are we talking about here?

766
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 2: From memory? I mean, in terms of the intruder rapes

767
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 2: that he was carrying out. I think it was forty

768
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 2: plus somewhere in that regard. But there was a wealth

769
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 2: of other offending that he was responsible for, you know,

770
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 2: unlawfully on property, burglaries where they maybe couldn't get towards

771
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 2: that sexual evidence threshold. So it would have been in

772
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 2: the hundreds that he was actually ended up convicted of.

773
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and was he the first New Zealand serial rapist?

774
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 1: Had you experienced that type of thing before on that magnitude?

775
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean certainly to that degree. Right, I'm sure

776
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:56,280
Speaker 2: there must have been in the distant past other serial offenders,

777
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 2: but he was the one where you know, you're talking

778
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 2: you know, forty plus, like that's a massive amount, and

779
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 2: over over nearly twenty year period, it was definitely the

780
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 2: biggest first that that New Zealand had ever encountered.

781
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a horrific, horrific crime spray, Isn't it absolutely tragic?

782
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 1: Any anything come out about what may? Evyd? Do you

783
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 1: aware of any of the backstory too?

784
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 2: So him not so much. So he admitted he freely

785
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 2: admitted a lot soon he was arrested, right, So he

786
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 2: was one of those guys who said, look, this is

787
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 2: who I am. I know I've got this problem, this

788
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 2: is what I've done. I know that what I do

789
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 2: is wrong, but I just can't help it. So, you know,

790
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 2: the sexual fantasy element for him was massive, and he

791
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 2: just couldn't overcome those thoughts and just keep them inside.

792
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 2: He had to d Yeah, that's what drove me, have

793
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 2: to act on them. So he knew that there was

794
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 2: something wrong in terms of his thoughts and what he

795
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 2: was doing, but he just couldn't couldn't stop them. But

796
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 2: in terms of his background, you know, he had a

797
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 2: bit of a tragic upbringing, but it was nothing. It

798
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,959
Speaker 2: was nothing startling. It's not the cliche where you think

799
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 2: a sexual offender must have been sexually abused, but there's

800
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 2: always something in their past. There's some sort of trauma

801
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 2: or something tragic, but it's not always sexual. So we

802
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 2: hare Joseph Thompson. And then despite saying off the back

803
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 2: of that, well we're not going to have that again,

804
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 2: we'll make sure that doesn't happen, then it started happening

805
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 2: again and there was another.

806
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 1: Serial cerial rapist here. Yeah.

807
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so when Joseph Thompson's in prison, suddenly there's

808
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 2: are these other offenses happening, and they were happening in

809
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 2: Counties manacau which is South Auckland, and in Auckland City,

810
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 2: and both of those are different policing areas, and they

811
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 2: started off their own separate investigations looking for this person.

812
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,240
Speaker 2: The original boss of the unit I named Chuck Henwood.

813
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 2: He had worked on the Joseph Thompson case, so he

814
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:57,839
Speaker 2: got seconded to the Auckland City second thing and goes, man,

815
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,320
Speaker 2: your files over here in the city are really similar

816
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 2: to this these ones we're dealing with in South Auckland. Again,

817
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 2: realize that they're looking for the same guy again, so

818
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 2: they merge these investigations very similar process. Eventually they pick

819
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 2: up Malcolm Riwa and I remember these names because I

820
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 2: was a kid at the time and they were on

821
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:18,800
Speaker 2: the news, and with Joseph Thompson, I didn't really understand

822
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 2: what was going on, but those two cases were the

823
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 2: genesis of the unit. So after that, the organization when

824
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:30,279
Speaker 2: we can't have this, we can't have serial rapists and

825
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,799
Speaker 2: their crimes not being linked together over decades because we

826
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 2: need to be able to stop this. Districts don't talk

827
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 2: to each other, probably similar to Ossie the different state

828
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 2: police forces don't talk to each other. If you get

829
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 2: a rape case, you're not just going to randomly reach

830
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 2: out to the other end of the country to go, hey,

831
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 2: do you have anything similar? There might be number three hundreds,

832
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 2: two hundred things to do. So they set up the

833
00:42:53,640 --> 00:43:00,720
Speaker 2: unit to track every stranger based sexual offense the country,

834
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 2: to have a one stop shop for it, so that

835
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 2: if a new thing cropped up and it looks similar

836
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 2: to one that was unsolved, we could link them together.

837
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 2: So that was the early genesis of it, and it's

838
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 2: evolved massively since then with psychology and all the rest

839
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:15,399
Speaker 2: of it.

840
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 1: So with that, at the time when they reached out

841
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:23,760
Speaker 1: to the FBI, was it a case of just stain

842
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 1: in contact with the FBI and getting them to have

843
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 1: a look at it that, Okay, we're getting all these rapes.

844
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 1: Do we think they're linked? And the FBI would give

845
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 1: you a way of linking the crimes the methodology of

846
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 1: the way the offender gained entry into the place, I suppose,

847
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 1: or different things, or the nature the way that the

848
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 1: offender treated the victim. Is that the type of thing

849
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 1: that brought them all together.

850
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:52,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, So the FBI would have said, or they did.

851
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 2: You know, it's a exactly what's happened here, like how

852
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 2: have they gotten? What have they actually done? And based

853
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 2: on that they are able to go this is the

854
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 2: type of guy that you're looking for based on our

855
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:06,720
Speaker 2: experience over in North America. So they're able to whittle

856
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 2: it down, not massively, to an age range. And this

857
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 2: is the type of crime you might expect to see

858
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 2: in this person's background. So if he's you know, if

859
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 2: he's breaking a home in the middle of the night

860
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 2: and be able to do that, well, that doesn't just

861
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 2: come out of nowhere. So that's the experience. And how

862
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 2: does how does that person learn they must be familiar

863
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 2: with burglary or some other similar type of offending, so

864
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 2: that that all armed that suspect list that they then

865
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,799
Speaker 2: went through and took the blood the blood's from, But

866
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 2: they then needed to sort of New Zealand a fire,

867
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 2: I guess. So they then said, we've got this knowledge now,

868
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 2: and they started to create their own database of offenders

869
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 2: and there I guess their histories and things, and our

870
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 2: computer system at the time, couldn't you search for that

871
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 2: kind of stuff really well and still come So they

872
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 2: just constructed it behavioral database essentially as opposed to a

873
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 2: criminal history database, and that was the early start of

874
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 2: that work. And then we sort of went away from

875
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 2: the FBI a little bit. As far as I'm aware,

876
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:15,800
Speaker 2: the Canadians sort of overtook because we're far more in

877
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 2: common legally and jurisdiction. Yeah, Canadians, so that RCMP now

878
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 2: have really close relationship with We go over to them

879
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 2: for training and we use their software system, which is

880
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:31,720
Speaker 2: that behavioral database for use today. So now our closest

881
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,280
Speaker 2: relationship overseas is definitely with the Canadians.

882
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:38,719
Speaker 1: Okay, it's interesting how it evolved that around that era

883
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:41,279
Speaker 1: that you're talking with the serial fenders, because it was

884
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 1: something we quite often the different law enforcement agencies operated

885
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:50,799
Speaker 1: in silos, like not communicating and then even then won

886
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 1: like New Zealand Police or New South Wales Police, which

887
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 1: is covering the big area, you don't know what the

888
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 1: local area. What's happening in the local area's command is

889
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 1: how thin because you're not working on it. So making

890
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 1: that link, but I think the beauty of what they

891
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 1: bring and when you look at it, it's not rocket science,

892
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:12,840
Speaker 1: is it. You don't sort of stand back Oh, that's amazing.

893
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 1: It's almost a common common sense approach to the way

894
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 1: that you would look at the crime.

895
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that's what I've found. And it's almost you know,

896
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:26,319
Speaker 2: a lot of the advice given is, you know, a

897
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 2: good detective will already have an inkling and they kind

898
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 2: of stamp on it from the people that have the

899
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 2: signature block that says behavior Science Unit, registered psychologist, And

900
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:40,319
Speaker 2: that is so true. But at the same time, I've

901
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 2: just seen that the people on the team are just incredible.

902
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 2: They can take any case and just go, based on

903
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 2: their own experiences, go this is kind of where you

904
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 2: need to be going, which just saves so much time

905
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:55,840
Speaker 2: rather than going down twenty six paths all at the

906
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 2: same time, and that can really narrow it to just

907
00:46:57,760 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 2: one or two, which is just.

908
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 1: What I don't think people appreciate that haven't worked in

909
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:07,239
Speaker 1: major crime or crimes of this nature. Serial defending how

910
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: much information comes in too. It's almost like you've overwhelmed

911
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 1: with information, So it's about analyzing that information, collating it all.

912
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:17,720
Speaker 1: The start with analyzing it, then pick out what's important

913
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 1: and what's not important.

914
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, and without somebody sort of guiding you you're

915
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 2: going I you know, you're taught that you've got to

916
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:28,439
Speaker 2: keep that open mind and a tunnel vision because we've

917
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 2: been there and had our ass is handed to us

918
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:34,799
Speaker 2: for doing that and rightly so for decades, and so

919
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 2: you can consider it all and it's really helpful to

920
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,319
Speaker 2: have someone go, well, actually, if the offenders done this,

921
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 2: this and this, they can be this type of person.

922
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,959
Speaker 2: That's fantastic. You can focus your resources while still looking

923
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 2: at those other things, but you're not suddenly having to

924
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 2: juggle a million balls all at once.

925
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 1: And that breaking it down simply. I knowed there was

926
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 1: a case I worked on when homicide was homicide and

927
00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 1: Serial Violent Offenders unit that wire and we're doing serial

928
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:03,799
Speaker 1: rapists as well, and there was a rapist that was

929
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:08,880
Speaker 1: operating in the area of Sydney and multiple victims, but

930
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 1: always the offenses were occurring on a Tuesday or Thursday night.

931
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:15,880
Speaker 1: I think it's a long time ago. Looking back at it,

932
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 1: we saw the pattern and then when the person was

933
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 1: actually arrested, it was obvious he was living at home,

934
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 1: but he was telling his partner at the time that

935
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:29,919
Speaker 1: he was at tech on the Tuesday and Thursday nights

936
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,920
Speaker 1: that were the nights that he was going to after

937
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 1: hours study, so that's when he was out and about,

938
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 1: and that's when the offenses were always occurring, from that

939
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:41,759
Speaker 1: six o'clock to nine o'clock time on the Tuesday or

940
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:45,239
Speaker 1: Thursday night. And I look back at that and it's

941
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 1: all these little bits of experience that you gain the

942
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 1: longer you stay in it. And I think it would

943
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 1: have been a smart play when we were appealing to

944
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 1: the public with anyone with information, we know this person

945
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 1: is not at their home between the hours of six

946
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 1: pm nine pm on the Tuesday and Thursday night, if

947
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 1: anyone knows someone blah blah blah. Little things like that

948
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:07,720
Speaker 1: can be very very helpful.

949
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:10,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, And still to this day where we don't

950
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 2: do that, do we not often enough? Anyway? Yeah, absolutely,

951
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 2: if you know when it's happening, there's a reason for it.

952
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 2: They're clearly not otherwise supposed to be. Otherwise they probably

953
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 2: would have been dubbed in by somebody. Yeah, someone thinks

954
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 2: they're somewhere and they're not. So Yeah. Definitely, like getting

955
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 2: that stuff early and being able to put that out

956
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 2: in the media.

957
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:33,919
Speaker 1: What's your thoughts on using the media in investigations because

958
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 1: I know there's different schools of thought with impolicing sometimes

959
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 1: whether the media do I thought during my career and

960
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 1: post career they are always a good tool if they

961
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 1: were used properly. The media the information that you could

962
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 1: put out one hundred.

963
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:53,440
Speaker 2: Percent, Like so many cases, the majority of cases have

964
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 2: a media element to them. There's no SPS crime that

965
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 2: doesn't these days. And I've always yeah, I've always found

966
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 2: to be nothing other than helpful ethical, you know. But

967
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 2: what people kind of get caught up in is I

968
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 2: think a lot of cops think that the journalists are

969
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:14,759
Speaker 2: trying to do their job for them, and like they

970
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 2: have this clash like I've been doing my job because

971
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:21,799
Speaker 2: I'm the detective and you're not. But I don't quite

972
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 2: realize that you have a completely separate job and they

973
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 2: both come with their own legal parameters, pressures, objectives which

974
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:34,920
Speaker 2: are slightly different. But that's okay, and there's so much

975
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,400
Speaker 2: overlap and you can work together. So as long as

976
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:40,840
Speaker 2: there's not that like clash through nothing other than ignorance,

977
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 2: I think then amazing, amazing the media on board for investigations.

978
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 1: I think it needs to be used from policing point

979
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 1: of view and now I've got the opportunity to say

980
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:54,320
Speaker 1: it from the media point of view and the police

981
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:57,279
Speaker 1: point of view. Now working in the media, but from

982
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 1: the place point of view, and I reference Sarah Yule again,

983
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 1: I would often consult her, what's the message I'm going

984
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:06,760
Speaker 1: to put out? Because when I'm looking down the camera

985
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 1: and I'm talking on in the media, there's not one

986
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 1: word that I'm not saying without a purpose to ever

987
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 1: either get a witness to come forward or get a

988
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 1: reaction from the offender. And I think it's sort of

989
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 1: frowned upon in policing, but I think it's something that

990
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 1: we could exploit more really put pressure. And I've used it.

991
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 1: We've organized crime. I've used it in serial offenders, all

992
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 1: sorts of high profile cases where I'm sending the message

993
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 1: out in an organized crime one. We created that the

994
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 1: way that we were discussing the crime. We had multiple

995
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:45,839
Speaker 1: unlimited resources coming after these people, and I know at

996
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:48,720
Speaker 1: panic them. I had solicits contacting me, how many murders

997
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 1: are you going to be charging our client with? We

998
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 1: didn't have any evidence, but and we didn't make an

999
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 1: untrue representation, but we created the thought that time sticking

1000
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:01,799
Speaker 1: away you better get in now, because sooner or later

1001
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 1: we're going to come and knock on your door.

1002
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's and that's the honest true, isn't it?

1003
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:10,280
Speaker 2: Like we don't use that enough in police We don't.

1004
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:13,720
Speaker 2: I think there is that rigidity around. Well, I'm only

1005
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 2: going to tell the media and therefore the public what

1006
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 2: I want out there, and nothing else is fair game.

1007
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,239
Speaker 2: But at some point it's like we'll hang on what's

1008
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 2: the media's role and what could be helpful here? And

1009
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 2: beyond that, like what if we're actually trying to achieve

1010
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 2: we actually want to arrest the people responsible for this.

1011
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 2: They're going to probably watch this too. How else we

1012
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:37,839
Speaker 2: can we use this for advantage low normal people rather

1013
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:40,399
Speaker 2: than standing there like robots and just delivering a couple

1014
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:44,759
Speaker 2: of things. But yeah, that message is massive, right, And

1015
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:47,319
Speaker 2: then they're on the phone straight away and a lot

1016
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 2: of people are panicking. Have got nothing to do with it.

1017
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 1: I did one, and it's on the Willim Tyrill matter.

1018
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:56,520
Speaker 1: You might have heard about that, the young boy that disappeared.

1019
00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 1: It was let it. It was the end of my career.

1020
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 1: I got into trouble, probably aware of that. But when

1021
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 1: I took the investigation over. I made it very clear,

1022
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:09,400
Speaker 1: and I came up with the strategy. I wanted to

1023
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:12,239
Speaker 1: put pressure on people to come forward and had a

1024
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 1: map of where we disappeared from and said this is

1025
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 1: a one square kilometer. Anyone that lives in that one

1026
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 1: square kilometer that has not come forward and spoken to

1027
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 1: police makes me wonder why you haven't come and spoken

1028
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 1: to police. Now what that did? I had some complaints,

1029
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:31,319
Speaker 1: so that was very aggressive that what you're doing. But

1030
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 1: it flushed people out. Obviously we haven't solved it. It

1031
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:36,799
Speaker 1: didn't work, but it was a strategy. It's better than

1032
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:39,440
Speaker 1: sitting there going I don't know what's happened. Like, we

1033
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:43,440
Speaker 1: came up with a strategy and tried to flush people out.

1034
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 2: And that's great. Right, people need a why, They need

1035
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 2: a reason. Yeah, Like so many people sit there knowing

1036
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 2: things about things and they go. But I'm not going

1037
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:53,400
Speaker 2: to be the one to step up and tell the police,

1038
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 2: but I think somebody should. It's not usually the case

1039
00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 2: that there's one hundred people that know and they're all

1040
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 2: just digging their heels and then don't want to talk.

1041
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:04,840
Speaker 2: They do want to offload, and they just need to

1042
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:06,400
Speaker 2: be given the reason to do it so that they

1043
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 2: get is absolute goal. Just if you're within the zone

1044
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:11,000
Speaker 2: and you haven't come and talked about here's that little

1045
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:13,279
Speaker 2: drive to go, well I'm within that zone. Okay, well

1046
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:15,960
Speaker 2: I guess now is the right time. That's brilliant and

1047
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:17,399
Speaker 2: that should be used all the time.

1048
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:22,600
Speaker 1: Another one was with the William Tyrell case, that when

1049
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:25,640
Speaker 1: we're putting out the reward or talking about it, that

1050
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 1: anyone that's watching this, if the person that you're watching

1051
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:35,399
Speaker 1: it with might appear disinterested, overly disinterested, or might overreact

1052
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 1: or just making I'm thinking, if someone's sitting there that's

1053
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:42,160
Speaker 1: involved in it, sitting there with a friend, a family

1054
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:44,839
Speaker 1: member or whatever, and the William Tyrell matter comes up

1055
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:47,960
Speaker 1: on TV, they turned the TV off, or turn the

1056
00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 1: radio down, or close the newspaper. They don't want to

1057
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 1: talk about it, or they're fixated on it. Something like that.

1058
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 1: Little triggers that might flush flush people out. But it's

1059
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 1: something that you're unit was formed on the basis of

1060
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:04,879
Speaker 1: the FBI. Very early in my policing career, I read

1061
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:09,279
Speaker 1: the book by John Douglas Mind Hunter, and it was

1062
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:10,799
Speaker 1: a long time ago that I read it, But what

1063
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:13,359
Speaker 1: really stuck in my mind was the way he would

1064
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 1: strategically use the media to bring information, bring witnesses, ford

1065
00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:20,360
Speaker 1: or flush the offender out. And I think it's a

1066
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 1: strategy that's under used in policing.

1067
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, you want me reach, right, So why wouldn't

1068
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:29,719
Speaker 2: you use every single evenue that you could.

1069
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well it's a tool, it's a tool. It's

1070
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:36,359
Speaker 1: just I want to break down more of the work

1071
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 1: that the unit does. But just before we finish part one,

1072
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 1: what's the makeup of your unit? Just describe the behavioral

1073
00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 1: science unit. How many people are you got working on

1074
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:48,680
Speaker 1: it and how do people access the unit?

1075
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:52,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're really small, so there's only five people on

1076
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 2: the team. There's two registered psychologists and then three behavioral

1077
00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:01,600
Speaker 2: analysts and their work is added into that. The analysts

1078
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 2: are doing that serial sexual offender behavioral capture work and

1079
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:10,919
Speaker 2: are advising major crime investigations. And we're just a support unit,

1080
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:15,279
Speaker 2: so we don't hold cases. We're not investigating ourselves, so

1081
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:19,080
Speaker 2: we don't work on things proactively. Investigation teams have to

1082
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:22,239
Speaker 2: reach out to us. So that's just kind of a

1083
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:25,400
Speaker 2: marketing exercise. You know. We go and talk on training

1084
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:29,959
Speaker 2: courses and sell what we can do and put things

1085
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:32,440
Speaker 2: on the intranet to say what we can do, and

1086
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 2: then you know someone somewhere and most stations know that

1087
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:38,600
Speaker 2: we exist, and often we're just grateful people reach out

1088
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:39,839
Speaker 2: and go, how, I don't know if you can help

1089
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:42,000
Speaker 2: with this, but just thought we'd reach out to you.

1090
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:44,120
Speaker 2: So a lot of that, and then you get a

1091
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 2: lot of repeat customers because if you do a good

1092
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:50,239
Speaker 2: job for somebody, they'll come back for everything, which is great.

1093
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 2: So it very much gets skewed towards areas that have

1094
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 2: maybe used us before. So there's definitely parts of the

1095
00:56:56,120 --> 00:56:57,640
Speaker 2: country that don't use us so much.

1096
00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:01,440
Speaker 1: And I laugh at that because I used to The

1097
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:04,560
Speaker 1: standing joke with Sarah Yule and myself was that I

1098
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:07,840
Speaker 1: thought she was my own private criminal psychologist. It was

1099
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:11,480
Speaker 1: on call twenty four to seven. But yeah, I'm that guy.

1100
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:13,920
Speaker 1: I just and I was quite cranky and jealous when

1101
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 1: she was going to other investigations. I thought I had

1102
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 1: sole access. But we joke on that. But that's very

1103
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 1: much how it played out in New South Wales too,

1104
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 1: and where people got to see the skills that a

1105
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:30,880
Speaker 1: psychologists can bring to the investigation. Okay, I want to

1106
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 1: call in that expertise and what I found from an

1107
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 1: investigator's point of view, and I know others like the

1108
00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:41,800
Speaker 1: others that have used as the resources. It gives you

1109
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:44,800
Speaker 1: a different perspective. You can get that group think in

1110
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 1: a police environment. You're all in the incident room together,

1111
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 1: you're talking, and then a psychologist comes in and looks

1112
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:54,240
Speaker 1: at it a little bit differently from the way a

1113
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:57,440
Speaker 1: police perspective. Do you see that in the work that

1114
00:57:57,480 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 1: you're doing with the unit, Yeah, definitely.

1115
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 2: And a real common one is major crome investigations looking

1116
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 2: for advice on interviewing somebody you know, And that's I

1117
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:13,920
Speaker 2: like those ones because coming from the operational background, I see,

1118
00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 2: you know, that's something that that would be really useful.

1119
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 2: And you get so many where they're like, okay, so

1120
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:21,160
Speaker 2: what we're going to do is we're going to smash

1121
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:23,840
Speaker 2: in their doors at six am with the armed offenders squad,

1122
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 2: going to rip them out of their bed. We're going

1123
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:28,600
Speaker 2: to throw them in the car, get them in the cell. Cool.

1124
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:30,680
Speaker 2: Once we've done that, how do we make them talk

1125
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 2: to us? You got to go, yeah, okay, well just

1126
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:37,480
Speaker 2: throwing this out there, but are you going to lose anything?

1127
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 2: If maybe you don't smash his door in, or are

1128
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 2: you going to lose anything if you actually go see

1129
00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:45,840
Speaker 2: them at three pm? Or let's be really wild, what

1130
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:48,440
Speaker 2: if you ring in and give them a heads up,

1131
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:51,240
Speaker 2: you know, and just throwing out these ideas and sometimes

1132
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:55,880
Speaker 2: they are undoable, right. There are some cases you want

1133
00:58:56,200 --> 00:58:58,960
Speaker 2: the elements of surprise so you don't lose evidence. But

1134
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:01,480
Speaker 2: that is such a ridge way of thinking. You know

1135
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:03,920
Speaker 2: that we have to do it and take them by surprise,

1136
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:05,760
Speaker 2: and you kind of go, okay, but do you have

1137
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:08,240
Speaker 2: all your evidence already? Yep? Are you expecting to find

1138
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:09,600
Speaker 2: any more at this place?

1139
00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 1: Not? Really?

1140
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:14,680
Speaker 2: Okay? Well, hey, you've got so many great options now,

1141
00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:18,440
Speaker 2: or knock that conversation before it even starts.

1142
00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:22,000
Speaker 1: I'm laughing here, Chris, because I'm probably laughing at myself

1143
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 1: because I was probably those cops that we're going to

1144
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:26,880
Speaker 1: smash the door in six am and make a big impact.

1145
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:30,840
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's that's exactly the type of thing I

1146
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 1: think that a unit like yours can bring to investigators,

1147
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 1: just that different perspective because we might have been working

1148
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:39,280
Speaker 1: on for three months and we're so hard. We are

1149
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:41,240
Speaker 1: going to catch these guys and we're going to hit

1150
00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:44,440
Speaker 1: them hard. And then but why won't they talk to us?

1151
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:48,360
Speaker 2: Oh, we're thinking I've done it too earlier, and you

1152
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:51,400
Speaker 2: go really show him. I'm going to really know what

1153
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:53,600
Speaker 2: he's done is wrong because I'm going to go in

1154
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:56,360
Speaker 2: at six am and then you know, man, when he

1155
00:59:56,440 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 2: sits in that cell, he's really going to be steering

1156
00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:02,920
Speaker 2: things over and diferent perspectives. No, he's not. He's been

1157
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 2: in itself so many times. There is nothing you can

1158
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:08,080
Speaker 2: do that he hasn't seen before. In fact, the way

1159
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:10,480
Speaker 2: he is is probably the result of police treating him

1160
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:12,720
Speaker 2: like that for so many years. So why don't we

1161
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:15,760
Speaker 2: just do this a little bit different and I don't know,

1162
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:18,439
Speaker 2: treat them like an ordinary person because that's the way

1163
01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:21,040
Speaker 2: that we should be treating people. And so do we

1164
01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:23,000
Speaker 2: need to do ABC and D. Why don't we just

1165
01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 2: do it this other way instead?

1166
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:27,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's definitely And that's a fascinating part about the

1167
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:31,080
Speaker 1: strategies and the direction you take it. Let's have a

1168
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:34,160
Speaker 1: break now, when we come back, we'll dissect more of

1169
01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:37,000
Speaker 1: what the unit does and try to give people an

1170
01:00:37,080 --> 01:00:40,400
Speaker 1: understanding of how it actually actually works. So if we

1171
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 1: have a break and we'll come back for a part

1172
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:42,480
Speaker 1: two