WEBVTT - The ‘playbook’ lobbyists use to delay climate action

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<v Speaker 1>When Professor Christian Downey appeared before a Senate inquiry into

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<v Speaker 1>climate and energy misinformation, he warned that Australia is facing

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<v Speaker 1>coordinated campaigns that aim not to debate solutions, but distall them.

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<v Speaker 2>There is a network of organizations that exist to influence

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<v Speaker 2>the public, influence the media, influence political arenas like our Parliament,

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<v Speaker 2>to stop or reverse effective climate action.

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<v Speaker 3>Professor Downey has spent years inside boardrooms and the lobbying

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<v Speaker 3>world studying how these campaigns are built, tracing the billions

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<v Speaker 3>spent on messaging, and outlining what he calls the climate

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<v Speaker 3>Obstruction Playbook, a playbook developed in Washington but now echoed

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<v Speaker 3>here in Australia.

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<v Speaker 2>Short answer is, I think we're scratching the surface as

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<v Speaker 2>much more to research, but there's an overwhelming body of

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<v Speaker 2>empirical evidence now about these actors, about the financial flows.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm Ruby Jones, and you're listening to seven am today.

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<v Speaker 3>Professor at a and u's School of Regular and Global

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<v Speaker 3>Governance and director of the Governing Energy Transition Lab, Christian

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<v Speaker 3>Downey on how the Obstruction Playbook has been so successful

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<v Speaker 3>in stopping action on climate change. It's Thursday, October twenty three,

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<v Speaker 3>so Christian. You've spent a lot of time investigating the

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<v Speaker 3>lobbyists and the tactics that they use behind a lot

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<v Speaker 3>of the misinformation that we see.

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<v Speaker 1>Around climate change. So where did that start for you?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I guess for more than a decade, I've been

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<v Speaker 2>thinking about the politics of climate change. I've been working

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<v Speaker 2>in think chains and government and universities. I think the

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<v Speaker 2>one thing that stood out as I thought more about

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<v Speaker 2>this issue is, you know, because of the path breaking

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<v Speaker 2>work of climate scientists, we have a good understanding of

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<v Speaker 2>why the world is heating up, what the impacts are.

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<v Speaker 4>Because of the work.

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<v Speaker 2>Of engineers and entrepreneurs, we have all those all the

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<v Speaker 2>technologies we need to cut pollution and stabilize our climate.

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<v Speaker 2>And because of the world of economists and public policy experts,

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<v Speaker 2>we know most of the policy solutions, and yet we

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<v Speaker 2>continue to fail to implement ambitious climate policy.

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<v Speaker 4>So is that kind of puzzling question about why are

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<v Speaker 4>we failing? Why aren't we.

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<v Speaker 2>Reducing emissions like scientists are asking. A major fact that's

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<v Speaker 2>become clearer over the years is because of the efforts

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<v Speaker 2>by groups and individuals in society to obstruct actual and

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<v Speaker 2>climate change, that is, to block and to pose policies

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<v Speaker 2>and our failure to understand that and then of course

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<v Speaker 2>to overcome it.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, let's talk a bit more about those people and

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<v Speaker 3>groups and what you've come to learn about them. I

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<v Speaker 3>know that you went to Washington to meet some of

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<v Speaker 3>these people, So when you were there in the room

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<v Speaker 3>with them, tell me what you've learned about who they are,

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<v Speaker 3>how these campaigns are built, how they come about.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So I've spent a number of stints over in the

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<v Speaker 2>US trying to study our climate and energy policy was shaped,

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<v Speaker 2>interviewing senior executives, lobbyists from all the major fossil fuel

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<v Speaker 2>industries countless ours now, you know, waiting in the foyers

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<v Speaker 2>of big office buildings, going through security up into the

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<v Speaker 2>corporate boardrooms, and sitting in the offices of.

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<v Speaker 4>Major coal corporations, executives.

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<v Speaker 2>From oil and gas corporations down in Houston, their lobbyists

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<v Speaker 2>in Washington, d C.

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<v Speaker 4>But I've also spent time with lobbyists in.

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<v Speaker 2>The soul a wind Hydrosector and you know, what you

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<v Speaker 2>really find out is that a lot of these groups

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<v Speaker 2>are engaged.

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<v Speaker 4>So this is part of how policy works in that town.

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<v Speaker 2>There are engaged in sophisticated political campaigns to try and

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<v Speaker 2>shape policy outcomes, to block policy outcomes, often particularly around

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<v Speaker 2>climate change.

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<v Speaker 3>And so being in those rooms and seeing how this

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<v Speaker 3>works behind the scenes, was there anything that you witness

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<v Speaker 3>that really suppose crystallized the playbook that's been created and

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<v Speaker 3>used here?

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>The thing that really I guess crystallized it for me

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<v Speaker 2>was probably over a couple of conversations that when the

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<v Speaker 2>lobbyists I had come to meet described, you know, we

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<v Speaker 2>got a lot of detail how they were plotting strategies.

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<v Speaker 2>Often that involved developing sophisticated public relations campaigns, but they're

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<v Speaker 2>often designed to kill off the next piece of climate legislation.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe it was attempts to limit emissions from coal. Of course,

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<v Speaker 2>this isn't new, you know. We know fossil fuel companies

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<v Speaker 2>around the world have funded multi billion dollar campaigns since

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<v Speaker 2>at least the nineteen eighties to deny the existence of

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<v Speaker 2>climate change. They find a television campaigns, online campaigns, front groups,

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<v Speaker 2>consultancy reports, and many others, and it's worked. And I think,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, through these conversations, it really became apparent to me,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's what me and many other researchers have been

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<v Speaker 2>working on for some time.

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<v Speaker 3>Now, I'm so curious. Tell me more about these campaigns,

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<v Speaker 3>what the strategy is.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, when you're thinking about, for example, the campaigns run

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<v Speaker 2>by corporations, often they have very long time horizons. They're

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<v Speaker 2>thinking what do they want to achieve over the next

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<v Speaker 2>decade and maybe over a decade, it is simply to

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<v Speaker 2>you know, store climate action as long as possible, because

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<v Speaker 2>they want to keep selling oil or gas or coal.

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<v Speaker 2>They're simply just motivated by commercial interests. How those campaigns

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<v Speaker 2>play out, Well, there's a lot to it. There's lobbying,

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<v Speaker 2>there's public relations. There's often litigation. There's campaigns to cast

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<v Speaker 2>doubt on the role of science and scientists. I'll give

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<v Speaker 2>you one example, perhaps on public relations, which is really

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<v Speaker 2>i think a key part of you know, what you

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<v Speaker 2>might call the climate obstruction playbook. So, public relations and

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<v Speaker 2>advertising firms have long been paid to craft political campaigns

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<v Speaker 2>for oil and gas companies, among others. Now these campaigns,

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<v Speaker 2>they involve more than simply running a few television ads

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<v Speaker 2>for a corporate client. Often affirm will do polling, they'll

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<v Speaker 2>do focus groups, they'll do media and social media campaigns.

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<v Speaker 2>Sometimes they'll even undertake astroturfing, and by astroturfing, what I'm

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<v Speaker 2>referring to is creating fake community groups to give the

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<v Speaker 2>impression of widespread support or widespread opposition for an issue.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, so pr companies are being paid to come up

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<v Speaker 3>with these campaigns, But how much is being spent on

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<v Speaker 3>this and what does the money trail look like?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>I think this is one of the fascinating questions, right,

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<v Speaker 2>like if you follow the money of what's actually happening.

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<v Speaker 2>So what we did to try and answer that question

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<v Speaker 2>and follow the money trail was I can't say it

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<v Speaker 2>was the most exciting task all the time, but we

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<v Speaker 2>were looking at their tax records.

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<v Speaker 1>Sounds exciting to me.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a good way to kill a dinner party conversation

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<v Speaker 2>and you start talking about tax records. But what we

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<v Speaker 2>tried to do was look at ninety trade associations. These

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<v Speaker 2>are kind of industry lobby groups, and see go over

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<v Speaker 2>a decade, how much were they spending on politics. So

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<v Speaker 2>the first thing we did was just figure out how

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<v Speaker 2>much money they got. And these are huge sums of money,

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<v Speaker 2>even in the US context. So ninety trade associations working

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<v Speaker 2>on climate issues over a decade had twenty five point

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<v Speaker 2>six billion US just in revenues. Wow, lots of money.

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<v Speaker 2>And then the next question is, you know, are they

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<v Speaker 2>spending all of that on politics?

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<v Speaker 4>How much? Not all of it?

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<v Speaker 2>In fact it's only thirteen percent, but thirteen percent of

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<v Speaker 2>that is three point four billion much of it. In fact,

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<v Speaker 2>two point two billion of that was going to public

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<v Speaker 2>relations advertising campaigns. Another seven hundred and thirty million was

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<v Speaker 2>going to lobbing. Now, this is big in the US,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's not peculiar to the US. Of course, similar

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<v Speaker 2>things happen here too.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. So if those are the sorts of sums that

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<v Speaker 3>we know are being spent in the US, do we

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<v Speaker 3>know how that compares to what might be happening here

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<v Speaker 3>in Australia.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, part of the problem is we just don't have

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<v Speaker 2>as good transparency or disclosure practices here in Australia. So

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<v Speaker 2>we know that groups like say the Minerals Council of Australia,

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<v Speaker 2>which has probably done a lot to what climate policy

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<v Speaker 2>or at least advocate against client policy here in Australia,

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<v Speaker 2>does spend significant sums of money on political campaigns. They

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<v Speaker 2>run television and other campaigns. These things cost a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of money, but we aren't able to follow the money

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<v Speaker 2>trailer the same way that we are in the US,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's.

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<v Speaker 4>One of the issues I think here is just the

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<v Speaker 4>lack of transparency.

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<v Speaker 3>Coming up. How Australia could fix its transparency problem.

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<v Speaker 2>Look, as a social scientist, it's notoriously difficult to try

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<v Speaker 2>and reach very robust conclusions on the effectiveness of one

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<v Speaker 2>particular strategy.

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<v Speaker 4>But I think we can.

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<v Speaker 2>Safely assume that one of the main reasons that we're

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<v Speaker 2>failing to implement perhaps climate policies that are consistent with

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<v Speaker 2>what climate science has been calling for is because of

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<v Speaker 2>the activities of some of these organizations' is not beyond.

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<v Speaker 3>Because you just recently gave evidence to a Senate inquiry

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<v Speaker 3>into climate and energy misinformation. Can you tell me about

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<v Speaker 3>that inquiry and why you decided to speak now?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So in the last couple of months there's a

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<v Speaker 2>cross party inquiries set up. It's called the Senate Select

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<v Speaker 2>Committee on Information, Integrity and Climate Change Energy. But basically

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<v Speaker 2>what they're interested in is looking at how is misinformation

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<v Speaker 2>around climate change effecting Australian politics, affecting public debate.

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<v Speaker 5>So it's a tried and true playbook which has been

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<v Speaker 5>tested overseas, particularly in the US. And is there any

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<v Speaker 5>reason to believe that this isn't now being tested here

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<v Speaker 5>in Australia or do you think that the learnings have

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<v Speaker 5>already come across.

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<v Speaker 4>No.

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<v Speaker 2>I believe those types of campaigns are being run here currently.

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<v Speaker 2>It did have senators from across all parties concerned about

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<v Speaker 2>this issue. You're wanting to know more about it and

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<v Speaker 2>really gathering information about the extent of these campaigns.

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<v Speaker 4>How they're playing out in Australia.

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<v Speaker 2>So we'll expect the committee to report in February and

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<v Speaker 2>hopefully they produce some strong recommendations that the Government decides

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<v Speaker 2>to act on.

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<v Speaker 3>And when we talk about misinformation in climate change and

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<v Speaker 3>the climate wars, and you know the media's role in this,

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<v Speaker 3>this has been going on for a long time.

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<v Speaker 1>So has something changed recently? Is what we're seeing different now?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I don't think anything significantly change. It kind of

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<v Speaker 2>happens with peaks and troughs. Often if there's a big

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<v Speaker 2>climate policy put forward, such as say a carbon price,

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<v Speaker 2>we saw a lot of lobbying in that period. But

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<v Speaker 2>one thing that we have had in the last few

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<v Speaker 2>months is a debate around what Australia's greenhouse gas target is.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, how much should Australia reduce its emissions by.

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<v Speaker 2>So for the last few months we've seen a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of political media attacks on renewable energy and climate action

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<v Speaker 2>here and I think these are straight out of the

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<v Speaker 2>climate obstruction playable. There is a passway for Australia to

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<v Speaker 2>be really ambitious in terms of the target that it sets,

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<v Speaker 2>but it is expensive and it's difficult, and we need

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<v Speaker 2>to make sure that we're very clear eyed in terms

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<v Speaker 2>of the approach that we take. So we saw the

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<v Speaker 2>Business Council Australia, one of the biggest business groups in

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<v Speaker 2>the country, released modeling We want Australia to be ambitious,

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<v Speaker 2>but we need to make sure that we're inherently practical.

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<v Speaker 2>Along the way, it was the Business Council a chief

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<v Speaker 2>executive Brand Black, who also says in action on climate

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<v Speaker 2>change is no longer you know warning the government that

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<v Speaker 2>you know, if you take a particular target, this might

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<v Speaker 2>cost a lot of money. Analysts say if the climate

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<v Speaker 2>target is to reduce emissions by more than sixty percent,

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<v Speaker 2>it will require more than four hundred billion dollars in

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<v Speaker 2>new capital investment. We saw Australian scientists who'd actually prepared

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<v Speaker 2>the nation's first national climate risk assessment showing the devastating

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<v Speaker 2>consequences that we're going to see from climate change and

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<v Speaker 2>are already seeing if you, you.

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<v Speaker 4>Know, have experienced the bushfires or the flooding of recent years.

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<v Speaker 6>The report wardens natural disasters will cost the economy forty

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<v Speaker 6>billion dollars annually by twenty fifty.

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<v Speaker 2>We saw them being you know, a lot of scare

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<v Speaker 2>mongering about them on the front pages of Australian newspapers.

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<v Speaker 6>By the twenty sixties, climate change will allegedly rob us

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<v Speaker 6>of two point seven million work days a year. But

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<v Speaker 6>here's the thing. Governments can't even project next year's budget deficit.

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<v Speaker 2>They so a lot of these kind of examples are

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<v Speaker 2>very much consistent with the empirical evidence that we've gathered

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<v Speaker 2>from around the world about how these groups obstruct climate action.

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<v Speaker 3>And when you read those sorts of reports and the

0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:12.000
<v Speaker 3>media reporting on them, you hear these lines, like the

0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:15.559
<v Speaker 3>one from the Business Council of Australia that we support

0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:22.160
<v Speaker 3>ambitious but quote achievable targets. So what should we be

0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:23.840
<v Speaker 3>taking from that kind of messaging?

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<v Speaker 4>I think The.

0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:27.480
<v Speaker 2>First thing is people should always be wary of information

0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:31.600
<v Speaker 2>that's spread by organizations such as an industry group that

0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:33.800
<v Speaker 2>have a commercial interesting issue. So you know, if you've

0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:36.480
<v Speaker 2>got a gas company out there saying, oh, renewable energy

0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:39.320
<v Speaker 2>is more expensive than gas, well you've got to remember

0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:41.080
<v Speaker 2>that the gas company is going to make more money

0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:44.480
<v Speaker 2>if people believe that. So it's the same for industry

0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:46.559
<v Speaker 2>groups like the Business Council. I think the next time

0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:48.600
<v Speaker 2>you see an industry groups such as them or the

0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:52.560
<v Speaker 2>Minerals Council out there complaining about government regulation or claiming

0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:55.319
<v Speaker 2>we need achievable and issues targets, we've just got to

0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:58.200
<v Speaker 2>remember it's not us they represent, it's the interests of

0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:02.680
<v Speaker 2>their members. Associations have a legitimate role to advocate on

0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:05.960
<v Speaker 2>behalf of corporations, but we should never confuse this with

0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:07.439
<v Speaker 2>what's in the interest of the public.

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<v Speaker 3>And you mentioned this issue around transparency in Australia, Tommy,

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<v Speaker 3>I suppose how you think that issue can be looked

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<v Speaker 3>at and changed.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, research suggests that I guess if you're going to

0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:23.200
<v Speaker 2>combat climate change information, there's a whole range of things

0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:25.640
<v Speaker 2>you could do. In its estimated before the Senate we

0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:28.880
<v Speaker 2>suggested a few things, not an exhaustive list by any means,

0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:33.600
<v Speaker 2>but one is just to enhance individual immunity. Often people

0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:37.000
<v Speaker 2>talk about public inoculation much like a vaccine, right. The

0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:39.760
<v Speaker 2>idea is that you can weaken the impact of misinformation

0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:42.400
<v Speaker 2>if you just make people aware about it, draw their

0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:48.880
<v Speaker 2>attention to who's doing it, what's their financial support. Another thing,

0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:51.280
<v Speaker 2>of course you can do, which we've spoken about, is

0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:54.320
<v Speaker 2>making sure that the government thinks about putting in place

0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:57.000
<v Speaker 2>regulations that forces some of these actors like a trade

0:13:57.000 --> 0:14:01.240
<v Speaker 2>association to disclose, you know, where they're getting their money from,

0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:03.120
<v Speaker 2>what are they spending it on, so we can shine

0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:03.880
<v Speaker 2>a light on some.

0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:05.679
<v Speaker 4>Of these political practices.

0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:09.400
<v Speaker 2>We're also going to, of course, need more systemic changes

0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:12.120
<v Speaker 2>and that often it might involve regulators like the Atriable

0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:15.440
<v Speaker 2>CE or a SIK or others holding organizations to account

0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:17.720
<v Speaker 2>that engage in green washing. So there's a whole range

0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:19.360
<v Speaker 2>of things we can do, and of course at the

0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:23.160
<v Speaker 2>individual level we also we all need busy lives, but

0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:26.480
<v Speaker 2>to the extent we can checking verifying source of something,

0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:29.800
<v Speaker 2>particularly before we go and share it on social media.

0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:33.880
<v Speaker 3>Well, Christian, thank you so much for talking with me.

0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:35.600
<v Speaker 4>A pleasure, thanks for having me.

0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:52.520
<v Speaker 3>Also in the news, the Prime Minister has confirmed the

0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:56.640
<v Speaker 3>government's overhaul of Australia's environment laws will not include a

0:14:56.640 --> 0:15:00.160
<v Speaker 3>climate trigger that could block coal and gas projects. The

0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:03.120
<v Speaker 3>government says the laws will instead force major projects to

0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:06.280
<v Speaker 3>report their carbon emissions, as well as provide plans for

0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:09.080
<v Speaker 3>how they intend to reduce emissions to net zero by

0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:13.240
<v Speaker 3>twenty fifty. The country's biggest polluters are already required to

0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:16.320
<v Speaker 3>report and cut emissions under the safeguard mechanism.

0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:18.240
<v Speaker 1>The new laws would expand that to.

0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:21.520
<v Speaker 3>Include projects expected to emit more than one hundred thousand

0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:27.680
<v Speaker 3>tons annually. And refugee advocates have intensified calls for support

0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:31.360
<v Speaker 3>for Australian visa holders trapped in Gaza due to closed borders,

0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:35.080
<v Speaker 3>and estimated six hundred to seven hundred people in Gaza

0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:39.080
<v Speaker 3>hold Australian visas, according to the Home Affairs Minister, although

0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:41.560
<v Speaker 3>the Home Affairs Department says it's unsure.

0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:43.320
<v Speaker 1>How many of those people are still alive.

0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:46.840
<v Speaker 3>Defat says the Australian government is doing all it can

0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:51.160
<v Speaker 3>to support Australian's permanent residents and their immediate family members

0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:54.600
<v Speaker 3>still in Gaza, who wish to depart, but says exiting

0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:58.840
<v Speaker 3>Gaza remains difficult, and Ruby Jones this is seven AM.

0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:07.600
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening.