Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life the average person is never
Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Part two of my chat with Christy McVie.
Speaker 1: Christy is a retired Western Australian police detective who is
Speaker 1: an author and an expert in child sexual abuse. In
Speaker 1: part one, we spoke about educating parents and adults responsible
Speaker 1: for looking after children that look out for sexual predadice,
Speaker 1: and also how to educate children even from an early age.
Speaker 1: And I learned something there Chrissy about that it can
Speaker 1: start when they're two years old, and just the language
Speaker 1: that you use. When we move on to now that
Speaker 1: we're in that part two, what are the type of
Speaker 1: behaviors we're going to look out for for these people
Speaker 1: that pray on children.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so a lot of the time, like we mentioned,
Speaker 2: they'll be seeking out vulnerable children, but vulnerable parents equals
Speaker 2: vulnerable children. So it can be that they're grooming a
Speaker 2: parent or an adult to trust them. And so you know,
Speaker 2: they gaslight or more so love bond people. So they're
Speaker 2: really really friendly, Like they'll be full of compliments and stuff,
Speaker 2: and they do that to the children as well, but
Speaker 2: they might do that to the parents, and they'll become
Speaker 2: friends with the parents and they'll create this relationship or
Speaker 2: this friendship with the parent. And then as time goes on,
Speaker 2: if it happens, if it happens slowly, and sometimes it
Speaker 2: can happen really fast, if the person's really trusting, then
Speaker 2: they will, you know, find ways to be alone with
Speaker 2: the child. So, hey, let me take Johnny to go fishing.
Speaker 2: Like you know, you've got a busy week, you're tired,
Speaker 2: Like you know, hey, I'm going camping this weekend. You
Speaker 2: want me to take the kids with me and stuff
Speaker 2: like that, and then and these this could be completely innocent,
Speaker 2: but these are the ways that they get children alone.
Speaker 2: So they're going to aim to get the child alone
Speaker 2: in a way that they can groom the child or
Speaker 2: to progress the abuse. And so, you know, some of
Speaker 2: the behaviors I saw or heard was the adult would
Speaker 2: stay up really late every night whilst everyone's asleep, and
Speaker 2: then they were creeping into the child's room. They were
Speaker 2: behind locked doors with children. So you know, I always
Speaker 2: had a rule that there was no lock doors, no
Speaker 2: closed doors in my house. And you know, they're behind
Speaker 2: a door with a child, and you know, I've heard
Speaker 2: victim survivors tell me that, you know, every time they
Speaker 2: were abused, it was when mum was outside washing, like
Speaker 2: hanging out the washing, and they would lock the door
Speaker 2: and they'd be stuck or there was the perception that
Speaker 2: they couldn't get out, the child couldn't get out. And
Speaker 2: one of the other things that I wanted to mention about,
Speaker 2: you know, every time I arrested a child sex offender,
Speaker 2: they had massive pornography collections and I often get asked
Speaker 2: the question, you know, what kind of porn do they watch? Well,
Speaker 2: most people most I say, start off with normal everyday pornography,
Speaker 2: but there is actually a sliding scale of how they
Speaker 2: get down to child sexual abuse material and stuff. And
Speaker 2: so start off with normal porn, then it gets more
Speaker 2: violent or more sadistic. Then it goes into best reality
Speaker 2: and then child exploitation material. But all of these predators
Speaker 2: and pedophiles that I saw over the years, they all
Speaker 2: had massive porn collections or some form of porn addiction,
Speaker 2: and it just goes into that world and best Realities
Speaker 2: comes before child abuse material. And the other thing about
Speaker 2: the porn is that study I was telling you about
Speaker 2: from the Institute of Criminology is that the people that
Speaker 2: identified as abusing children and attracted to children had were
Speaker 2: paying for porn, and they actually identified that they paid
Speaker 2: for porn and they watched more violent beast reality porn
Speaker 2: and child sexual abuse material. So that's a big indicator
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 1: Okay, and I see what you're saying as an indicator,
Speaker 1: because we probably all know people that they're into their
Speaker 1: porn or whatever. But that's yeah, that's an indicator that maybe.
Speaker 2: Along with other things, but it would be something if
Speaker 2: I was in a partnership or if I was with
Speaker 2: someone that had a you know, was staying up late
Speaker 2: watching lots of porn, you know, and.
Speaker 1: Some of these you wouldn't be in a relationship.
Speaker 2: Some people are, yeah, and you know, some of the
Speaker 2: indicators that I hear from you know, victims parents or
Speaker 2: like the non offending parent who you know was like, well,
Speaker 2: we had a normal sex life and everything seemed fine,
Speaker 2: but then they were abusing one of the children. So
Speaker 2: you know, it's these are some of the things that
Speaker 2: you see. And then if they're not in a relationship,
Speaker 2: you know, they're that person that spends all their time
Speaker 2: with children. And I heard an FBI profilest basically say,
Speaker 2: if someone wants to spend more time with your children
Speaker 2: than you do, that's a red flag because children can
Speaker 2: be annoying.
Speaker 1: That's a good simple way of looking at it. But
Speaker 1: I think a common sense approach you certainly it's a
Speaker 1: red flag that you want to look at. What about
Speaker 1: the manipulation the offenders do on your children, because that's
Speaker 1: something you could be looking about for as well. How
Speaker 1: do they manipulate the children.
Speaker 2: Quite often they're playing their manipulation game in twofold, so
Speaker 2: they're manipulating you. But they're manipulating the child. So with you,
Speaker 2: they might be. And I'm thinking about a specific case
Speaker 2: right now where the offender was grooming the child to abuse.
Speaker 2: So was love bombing them, was you know, complementing them,
Speaker 2: giving them gifts, taking them out on special treats, you know,
Speaker 2: or constant constantly grooming that child. But with the adult,
Speaker 2: they were basically creating this disconnect or this yeah, this
Speaker 2: disconnect between the parent and the child. So in order
Speaker 2: to get access to this child, look, let me take
Speaker 2: this child under my wing. And you know, their behaviors
Speaker 2: are out of control, and you know, like I can see,
Speaker 2: you know, so they're like gas lighting the parent into
Speaker 2: believing that this person's this savior for this child and
Speaker 2: is going to help fix this child's behavior and stuff.
Speaker 2: Never mind that the child's behavior is changing because they're
Speaker 2: being abused. You know. One of the things that I
Speaker 2: truly believe is behavior is another form of language. And
Speaker 2: when children show change behavior or show behaviors that aren't
Speaker 2: ideal or are concerning, then we need to ask what
Speaker 2: is happening?
Speaker 1: Okay, little things like that, And it's a complex way
Speaker 1: that they approach. It isn't like distancing the child from
Speaker 1: the side of people, and I can just imagine using
Speaker 1: the scenario of a single mother with children and oh,
Speaker 1: your child, they just need the male role model. Let
Speaker 1: me take them away for the weekend. And yeah, making
Speaker 1: that offer to parents when the manipulation when they're exhausted.
Speaker 1: Kids are hard. We all know that, like raising kids
Speaker 1: are hard. You need a break, you've had a hell
Speaker 1: of a week. Let me let me look after the
Speaker 1: kids to either or I can babysit. But okay, they're
Speaker 1: things again, it doesn't say conclusively that they're they're sex offenders,
Speaker 1: but they're things to look out for. And we want
Speaker 1: to be more aware, don't we. We don't want to
Speaker 1: go through with blinkers on them. Think the world's a
Speaker 1: lovely place and no bad happens.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's not that's not the way it is.
Speaker 1: Well, you come out with your statistics, statistics and that's yeah, well, okay, adolescents, Yes,
Speaker 1: that's the brave new world that Yeah, it's a strange
Speaker 1: world for all of us when we go through those
Speaker 1: adolescent years. But what are the risk factors when we're
Speaker 1: talking about sexual predators or where adolescents can come unstuck
Speaker 1: even with any nude selfies those type of things. What
Speaker 1: do we got to look out and how can we
Speaker 1: help adolescent children?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I guess the first thing that I want
Speaker 2: to say is that when your child goes through adolescents,
Speaker 2: they have like a basically they become aliens, don't they.
Speaker 2: I remember when my child hit around eleven, and I thought,
Speaker 2: what the hell is going on with my child? Where's
Speaker 2: my loving beautiful kid.
Speaker 1: They disappear for about seven or eight years.
Speaker 2: She's come back around already, but they do like they
Speaker 2: have like a brain transplant overnight, and so that can
Speaker 2: really take us out of like all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: the child that tells you everything's no longer telling you anything,
Speaker 2: and you don't actually can't get along with them anymore.
Speaker 2: I mean, my daughter just so happened. It was right
Speaker 2: around the time she had this brain transplant, right around
Speaker 2: the time that I was going through PTSD, you know,
Speaker 2: leaving the police, and she stood me up in the
Speaker 2: hallway one time, like she was so angry because you know,
Speaker 2: she's got all of these homes. She stood me up
Speaker 2: in the hallway we laugh about it now, and she
Speaker 2: was like, I just want to punch you in the
Speaker 2: face like and honestly, if you ever my daughter is
Speaker 2: the most She's a firecracker, no doubt, but she but
Speaker 2: she was so angry at me. This is the thing, Like,
Speaker 2: I'm being honest here because you know my daughter, I
Speaker 2: wrote like a blog post about it. My daughter saw
Speaker 2: porn at ten, right, and she you know, she was
Speaker 2: taught about sex at eight by a friend at school.
Speaker 2: And the thing is is that our kids are learning
Speaker 2: something at such a progressive rate and some of us,
Speaker 2: even myself at the time. And this is why I'm
Speaker 2: being really honest, is that it's okay if you're stumbling
Speaker 2: and you're going, I don't know what I'm doing here,
Speaker 2: because I've done.
Speaker 1: That, all right, Okay, Well that sets the setsus standard
Speaker 1: that no one's perfect on.
Speaker 2: The moment, no one is topic no one. And so
Speaker 2: with regards to teens, one of the things that we
Speaker 2: need to really be mindful is to keep that open
Speaker 2: communication where we can, because I get teens contact me
Speaker 2: and it's so stripped. It's so crazy that they and
Speaker 2: reach out to me online. But it's because I talk
Speaker 2: about sextortion and I talk about image based abuse on
Speaker 2: TikTok and where the teens are and they contact me
Speaker 2: and they're like, I've been sex storted. I don't know
Speaker 2: what to do. And I always say, can you talk
Speaker 2: to a safe adult? Have you got a safe atut
Speaker 2: to talk to? And most of them are like, I'm
Speaker 2: too scared to go to my parents. I'm too scared
Speaker 2: to talk to my parents. So my lesson for that
Speaker 2: is is to talk to your kids and to let
Speaker 2: them know it's okay if they make mistakes, and that
Speaker 2: you're always there no matter what they do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a very important message together across because, yeah,
Speaker 1: in the world that they live in and not have
Speaker 1: that safe place to come and speak to a parent.
Speaker 1: Some of the topics that you've got in your book
Speaker 1: about the adolescence use peer based abuse and prevention. Talk
Speaker 1: to us about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's we've stumbled it or we've spoken about it.
Speaker 2: At thirty to fifty percent of children abuse other children.
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean if something happens in childhood. I do
Speaker 2: want to say this, if your child happens to display
Speaker 2: harmful sexualized behaviors, it's what we the terminology we use.
Speaker 2: We're dealing with children. They're not sex offenders. They're children.
Speaker 2: But if they display harmful sexualized behaviors in childhood, it
Speaker 2: doesn't mean that they're going to be a sex offender
Speaker 2: when they grow up their children. So what we need
Speaker 2: to understand about it is that some things are appropriate
Speaker 2: and age appropriate. Say, for instance, two children they're both
Speaker 2: twelve and they have their first kiss, that's an age
Speaker 2: appropriate thing to happen. Or they're fifteen and they start
Speaker 2: dating they decide to have sex. That's age appropriate because
Speaker 2: there's no power imbalance. They're the same age, and as
Speaker 2: long as there's the same mental capacity and there's no intoxication,
Speaker 2: and there's no coercional or force, then everything's hunky dory.
Speaker 2: But when we're talking about harmful sexualized behaviors, and what
Speaker 2: we usually see is an older child, usually around pubescent age,
Speaker 2: harming a younger child usually and there is stats on
Speaker 2: this from Western Australi three to ten, ten to fifteen.
Speaker 2: So the more likely age that a child will will
Speaker 2: harm another child is between ten and fifteen, and the
Speaker 2: most likely age that a child will be harmed by
Speaker 2: another child is between three and ten.
Speaker 1: Okay, now you talked about their kids, So the person
Speaker 1: of the fends or the inappropriate behavior doesn't necessarily lead
Speaker 1: into what they're going to do in their adulthood. How
Speaker 1: do you protect your child from being a victim but
Speaker 1: also protect your child about respect and everything else that
Speaker 1: goes with it. How does that all tie.
Speaker 2: Up with body safety with all of those lessons that
Speaker 2: we were talking about. If we're talking about it from
Speaker 2: a really young age and we're empowering children to speak
Speaker 2: up and to share that they feel unsafe and uncomfortable with,
Speaker 2: then we're adding on the consent. We're adding on the
Speaker 2: discussion about, you know, and also being okay with no.
Speaker 2: You know some one of the lessons that I teach
Speaker 2: in those body safety cards is there's five types of no.
Speaker 2: You know, there's soft no where you just say no,
Speaker 2: and you know, there's polite no, no, thank you, and
Speaker 2: then the last no is screaming no, stop it, I
Speaker 2: don't like it, or get away.
Speaker 1: From it, say giving it, and the awkwardness of teenage
Speaker 1: sex or no or but you're giving them a scale
Speaker 1: of those, so it's pretty clear when I'm yelling no,
Speaker 1: that means means no yeah.
Speaker 2: And in the book, I say this as well, if
Speaker 2: you've never been taught to say no, which some parents
Speaker 2: say you're not allowed to say no to me. You
Speaker 2: do what I say when I say it. If your
Speaker 2: child has never practiced saying no to anyone, when they
Speaker 2: get to an uncomfortable situation like first time to have sex,
Speaker 2: or they think that they're expected to do something, they
Speaker 2: don't know how to say no.
Speaker 1: That's again making me think, because I know I've been
Speaker 1: through stuff. Teenager, you have no idea what the world's about.
Speaker 1: But yeah, sometimes you fall into a situation where you
Speaker 1: don't know I'm not into this or no.
Speaker 2: And that's the consent discussion, like we've I had a
Speaker 2: seventy something year old grandmother read my book and she
Speaker 2: contacted me via email, this massive email about her life,
Speaker 2: and she said to me, Christy, your consent. I've got grandkids.
Speaker 2: No one has ever spoken to me about consent before.
Speaker 2: And I realized how many times I've been sexually abused
Speaker 2: because I.
Speaker 1: Never actually didn't know how to say no.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's I had a seventy year old another
Speaker 2: seven year old woman during a presentation come up to
Speaker 2: me afterwards and say, I've never told anyone that I
Speaker 2: was sexually abused, And you know, seventy she was abused
Speaker 2: at eight sixty something year being on.
Speaker 1: Too that that long. That's the impact that it has.
Speaker 1: One of the topics that you've got in your book,
Speaker 1: nude culture and teens. I think, yeah, with the advent
Speaker 1: of phones and the internet, social media, what was a
Speaker 1: harmless bit of fun at the party when I was
Speaker 1: growing up with someone that ran through the party naked
Speaker 1: or something people would love and that would be the
Speaker 1: end of it. But it's a completely different environment now
Speaker 1: that kids are operating as teens, aren't they Yeah.
Speaker 2: Very much so. I mean, I've got a teenager and
Speaker 2: she constantly tells me that she doesn't understand because we
Speaker 2: talk about this stuff and I've been open with it.
Speaker 2: She's like, Mum, people just don't get how dangerous it
Speaker 2: is to share nudes. And you know, I don't understand.
Speaker 2: But that's because we've had those conversations. I've encouraged her
Speaker 2: to critically think these things through. Again, like I was saying,
Speaker 2: if we're not having these conversations with our teens, this
Speaker 2: is what they think is normal, and this is what
Speaker 2: they think they need to do to get that boy's
Speaker 2: attention or that girl's attention. I've had twelve year olds
Speaker 2: ask me or come to me after a presentation saying, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm being pressured for dick picks, and you know, like
Speaker 2: it's just become so normalized, and so the nudes and
Speaker 2: the sending of nudes and everything like that is a
Speaker 2: real problem, and our teens think that this is what
Speaker 2: they need to do. When you and I were, you know,
Speaker 2: in school day, you know, my boy my husband, my
Speaker 2: boyfriend asked me out, you know, he got his friend
Speaker 2: to ask me out on you know, the back of
Speaker 2: the bus, sent me a note, and then I said
Speaker 2: yes or no. You know, I don't know if does
Speaker 2: anyone remember when you used to like, go, will you
Speaker 2: go out with me?
Speaker 1: Why? No?
Speaker 2: And you had to circle which one.
Speaker 1: I never went down that, but that's yeah.
Speaker 2: You were probably more charming and like oh no, now I.
Speaker 1: Got more nose and I got yes, but I didn't
Speaker 1: even know how to ask.
Speaker 2: Yeah. But that's right, that's exactly right. And so now
Speaker 2: because they're behind a screen, they feel safe and they
Speaker 2: feel like nothing's going to harm me. But the reality
Speaker 2: is they send a nude to the person they like
Speaker 2: at school, it's going to get shared. And one of
Speaker 2: my colleagues over in Western Australia, Paul luther Land. He's
Speaker 2: a great guy. He said that he he goes and
Speaker 2: like talks to students all day every day and he
Speaker 2: surveys them, right, and he surveys turn up one in
Speaker 2: So when boys get a nude from a girl, one
Speaker 2: in two. Okay, when girls get a dick pic from
Speaker 2: a boy, about one inten will share it. So we've
Speaker 2: got a cultural problem there. We've got to respect problem
Speaker 2: because you know, when you're sending a nude to someone.
Speaker 2: First of all, we need to talk about the fact
Speaker 2: that unsolicited dick pics and unsolicited nudes someone's got to
Speaker 2: if you haven't asked for it, we shouldn't be sending it.
Speaker 1: Well, that's yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. The other thing that we need to talk about
Speaker 2: with our teams and what we need to cover with
Speaker 2: them is that that image, that photo, once someone's screenshots at,
Speaker 2: once someone's got it, it's out of your control and
Speaker 2: it could be out there forever. But the second to
Speaker 2: that is that our young people are being groomed online
Speaker 2: en mass and that is the next problem.
Speaker 1: Okay, we're just back to that first problem. So you've
Speaker 1: got to explain to your teenager the consequences of sending,
Speaker 1: receiving or whatever, and how you handle it if you've
Speaker 1: got nude pictures and of sharing it, all sorts of things.
Speaker 1: Awkward conversation they have with a team. But you've got
Speaker 1: to have that conversation.
Speaker 2: I actually think you need to have that conversation before
Speaker 2: they're a teenager.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that's probably sensible.
Speaker 2: Because by the time they're hitting year seven and they're
Speaker 2: getting into high school, they're being asked for needs, they're
Speaker 2: being shown porn, and you know, they're already it's already
Speaker 2: in their world. And so don't think that waiting until
Speaker 2: high school is where we talk about these conversations. The
Speaker 2: minute you give a smartphone to your child, we should
Speaker 2: be having these conversations.
Speaker 1: That makes sense. That makes sense. So it's too late
Speaker 1: to tell my son he's thirty there, so.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no sending dick pics.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'll get that message out to it. Healthy relationships
Speaker 1: like we talk about it, and yeah, there are healthy relationships,
Speaker 1: but what can how do you educate your children and
Speaker 1: put across the children about Yeah, relationships are beautiful things.
Speaker 1: They should be enjoyed and it's an exciting time in
Speaker 1: your life. What do you have to say to them
Speaker 1: about healthy relationships and respectful relationship.
Speaker 2: Again, I taught this to my daughter in her friendships
Speaker 2: before she got even into high school. You know, when
Speaker 2: a friend would pressure her to do something she didn't
Speaker 2: want to do, I would call it out as what
Speaker 2: it was. That's coercion, you know. I would talk to
Speaker 2: her about love bombing. And when someone is giving you
Speaker 2: lots of things and lots of compliments, and you know,
Speaker 2: gifting you all of these things, well that's actually a
Speaker 2: way to buy your attention and to keep you, you know,
Speaker 2: in their world or and I talked about the fact
Speaker 2: that you know in the book, I talk about the
Speaker 2: fact that most of us learn how to be in
Speaker 2: a relationship from her own parents' relationship or from the
Speaker 2: people around us, those adults, and not all of those
Speaker 2: relationships are healthy and safe. So having those conversations with
Speaker 2: your young person, you might not be able to give it.
Speaker 2: You know, you might be in a dangerous or unsafe relationship,
Speaker 2: but you can also teach that that's not how it's
Speaker 2: meant to be.
Speaker 1: Okay. So if your relationship is not the perfect role
Speaker 1: model for your kids, you sit your kids down and be.
Speaker 2: Honest with yourself and say, look, this is an ideal,
Speaker 2: this is the situation we're in. But I love blah
Speaker 2: blah blah, this is why I'm here. But also, you know,
Speaker 2: you can use their friendships and their early relationships because
Speaker 2: by the time they get to dating, yeah, their first relationship,
Speaker 2: which is around fourteen fifteen, maybe even earlier, maybe later,
Speaker 2: by that stage, they have already got a preconceived idea
Speaker 2: of what a relationship looks like, and they're already starting
Speaker 2: to think. Well, you know, and I've had young girls
Speaker 2: when young people tell me, oh, if he contacts me
Speaker 2: one hundred times a day and to ask me where
Speaker 2: I am all the time, that just means he loves me.
Speaker 1: No stalker.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's but that's what you know what I'm
Speaker 2: talking about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do. But yeah, those type of people they
Speaker 1: scare me as in scare me in the potential consequences
Speaker 1: when they come on that strong. So you're giving them
Speaker 1: life advice about the relationships, what's normal and what to
Speaker 1: look out for.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and just having that language and understanding what's normal
Speaker 2: and not normal, or what's safe and unsafe. You know,
Speaker 2: what safe love is versus what's unsafe love? And there's
Speaker 2: so many resources out there. I list them in the book,
Speaker 2: but you know one eight hundred respect is one of them.
Speaker 2: They've got information about love bombing, they've got information about
Speaker 2: healthy relationships. You know, a partner should never dictate to
Speaker 2: you what you should do. And a lot of teenagers
Speaker 2: get themselves into a relationship with their partners, telling them
Speaker 2: who they can hang out with, who they can see where,
Speaker 2: you know, asking them where they're going what. You know,
Speaker 2: that's the first part of domestic violence, if we're going
Speaker 2: to call it what it is.
Speaker 1: But we know that now as we're old and way
Speaker 1: past those adolescent years. But at the time, you would
Speaker 1: you'd have no idea. You just think, oh, this person
Speaker 1: really loves you, yes.
Speaker 2: And then you're stuck in a relationship that is really
Speaker 2: dangerous and unhealthy. And we see and young people are
Speaker 2: so eager to make other people love them, you know. Remember,
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know if you remember, but my daughter, like,
Speaker 2: she went through this phase where she just wanted people
Speaker 2: to like her and love her. And she's over that now.
Speaker 2: She's like, if they don't like me, blah blah.
Speaker 1: That's that's the thing. Because you say, confused about what
Speaker 1: life's all about. You just want to want to be
Speaker 1: the popular person.
Speaker 2: Or you just want people to like it, and that
Speaker 2: comes from that. And that's if you know, if we
Speaker 2: talk about childhood development, that is normal. You know, your
Speaker 2: children love you, want everything. They listen to you and
Speaker 2: listen to your advice. And then as they get through
Speaker 2: those first those pubescent teenage years, they're going to start
Speaker 2: pulling away. They're going to start looking to their peers
Speaker 2: for advice and for information. And then if we haven't
Speaker 2: done the groundwork first, and then if they don't have
Speaker 2: that relationship with us, we can't correct that or countercorrect
Speaker 2: that when they're going through it. So that's why we
Speaker 2: need to have those conversations and then hopefully we help
Speaker 2: them guide them through there.
Speaker 1: In the relationship. I never thought on my catch killers
Speaker 1: i'd be seeing here getting relationship advice maybe my parents
Speaker 1: should have given me, and my personal life wouldn't be
Speaker 1: as chaotic.
Speaker 2: I don't think i'm the like I'm a I'm not
Speaker 2: a psychologist, but I've just watched a lot of stuff.
Speaker 2: I've watched a lot of people, I've spoken to a
Speaker 2: lot of people, and I just realized that this is
Speaker 2: so important for our kids.
Speaker 1: Yeah, very very important online stuff. Where do we start
Speaker 1: with that? Like it's the brave new world. And when
Speaker 1: we're talking about kids being victims of predators online, what
Speaker 1: are the things we've got to look out for. Because
Speaker 1: we've talked about the things to look out for in
Speaker 1: people that circulate in your environment, but your teenage kids
Speaker 1: are even younger, are sitting there in front of their computter.
Speaker 1: What are the dangers we've been online for kids to
Speaker 1: prevent them from becoming victims of sexual predators.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so let me break it down for you into
Speaker 2: who's out there trying to prey on your children. So
Speaker 2: the first so it comes down to two types of
Speaker 2: predators online. The first one's pedophilical predatory. They're out there
Speaker 2: looking for children's images. They're out there to groom children
Speaker 2: and get those photos in. The second one is financial,
Speaker 2: so they're the sex daughters. They're extorting kids for money
Speaker 2: and that their sole purpose is to get as much
Speaker 2: out of your child as possible or out of your
Speaker 2: family as possible. So when we break that down, then
Speaker 2: there's the types of abuse. So the first one is
Speaker 2: let's start with the financial is sextortion. So it's gotten
Speaker 2: much media and it's I saw the e Safety Commissioner
Speaker 2: yesterday and stopped and said hello to her yesterday and
Speaker 2: she said that sextortion has quadrupled in the last year.
Speaker 2: They're getting so last year they had hundreds of thousands.
Speaker 2: I forgot to look it up before I came, but
Speaker 2: they had hundreds of thousands of reports to that. The
Speaker 2: Australian centered counter child exploitations. So sextortion is out of.
Speaker 1: Cop given an example of sextortion so people understand what
Speaker 1: we're talking about because the consequences of that have been
Speaker 1: really tragic in some of the ones that have hit
Speaker 1: the media.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so sextortion is where a I love the police terminology,
Speaker 2: but it makes me laugh because there's a player. But
Speaker 2: it's basically a person behind a screen who pretends to
Speaker 2: be a young person. So they're usually an adult, usually
Speaker 2: organized crime gang, and they're behind a screen. They're pretending
Speaker 2: to be a love interest to the child. So they
Speaker 2: will if it's a male, so they'll pretend to be
Speaker 2: a hot female basically to explain it in simple terms,
Speaker 2: and they will approach the child and they will say
Speaker 2: to the young fella, hey, you know what you're doing
Speaker 2: blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: And this is found on social media.
Speaker 2: Usually Instagram, Snapchat, Discord, three big top ones. And then
Speaker 2: so what they'll do is they'll pretend to be a female.
Speaker 2: It can happen as quickly as two minutes. So they'll
Speaker 2: go straight into their DMS messaging them, and then they'll
Speaker 2: ask them for they'll share nudes first. To get past
Speaker 2: that child's resistance, they will go straight to sending nudes
Speaker 2: first or a video of them doing you know, inappropriate things.
Speaker 2: The young person. Then, because they've already got the nudes,
Speaker 2: they get asked for nuds back. And because they've already
Speaker 2: got the nudes, they already go, oh, well, they've trusted
Speaker 2: me with their nudes, I can send nudes. And they're
Speaker 2: persistent they will harass that child, So then the child
Speaker 2: will send a nude back or send some nudes back.
Speaker 2: And then once the once this predator has got the nudes,
Speaker 2: then they'll say, I'm going to send this to all
Speaker 2: your family and friends unless you send me one thousand
Speaker 2: dollars or whatever, you know. And they usually use gift
Speaker 2: cards and things like that because they know kids can't
Speaker 2: get cash. Most of the time.
Speaker 1: I can imagine a kid that's been exploited like that,
Speaker 1: how devastating it would be.
Speaker 2: Like I said, it's quadrupled in the last twelve months,
Speaker 2: and they are like they are relentless, and they're even
Speaker 2: goading young people into killing themselves. So, like I said,
Speaker 2: you know, there's a really good Shadows of the Web.
Speaker 2: I think the AFP and ACE, the Australian Centered Counter
Speaker 2: Child Exploitiation, just did a documentary it's on YouTube called
Speaker 2: Shadows of the Web and they're talking about the fact
Speaker 2: that a lot of these these people who are doing
Speaker 2: this are in places like Nigeria or Thailand, you know,
Speaker 2: third world countries. They're just basically call centers of people
Speaker 2: sitting behind computers, targeting children, targeting young people, and then
Speaker 2: you know, taking advantage of them. So that's sextortion in
Speaker 2: a nutshell.
Speaker 1: Okay, how do you educate your kids not to get
Speaker 1: caught up in that?
Speaker 2: Well, part of that is obviously talking honestly about what's
Speaker 2: out there, and you know they're targeting children as young
Speaker 2: as ten, and so if your child's got a smartphone
Speaker 2: or a computer or chances are, chances are they're going
Speaker 2: to get approached. Now you know, we can start by
Speaker 2: building up their confidence, giving them all of those tools
Speaker 2: to you know, it's okay to say no, you don't
Speaker 2: have to do anything you don't want to do. But
Speaker 2: then when they get to that age, we need to say, hey,
Speaker 2: this is what's out there. There's people that will do
Speaker 2: try and harm you on They'll ask for private, you know,
Speaker 2: inappropriate photos and videos. This is how they're going to groomy.
Speaker 2: And like I said earlier, you know, I get young
Speaker 2: people contacting me out of the blue, well from all
Speaker 2: over the world because I talk about this on TikTok
Speaker 2: and they ask me for help, and there is no
Speaker 2: help unfortunately, other than reporting it to you know, the police,
Speaker 2: the ACE in Australia e Safety Commissioner. There is help
Speaker 2: in that way, but these people already have the images
Speaker 2: of videos or photos. There's no way to get them back.
Speaker 2: The best thing you can do in that moment is
Speaker 2: to stop conversing with them, take screenshots of everything, stop
Speaker 2: conversing with them, block and report them on whatever app
Speaker 2: they are on, and get some support from a parent
Speaker 2: or a safe adult. Report it to ACE, because the
Speaker 2: minute you pay them, they're not going to let go.
Speaker 1: Okay, they've got their hook in you and they keep going.
Speaker 1: You talked about building scaffolding protection and all that, and
Speaker 1: when you're talking about that one thing that I'd take
Speaker 1: us back to, you were saying that you've got to
Speaker 1: get that message in across to your children. No matter
Speaker 1: what's happened, you can tell me about it, because I
Speaker 1: would understand if if kids have got to the point
Speaker 1: where they take their own lives on that they're so
Speaker 1: ashamed of what's happened and they haven't felt comfortable coming
Speaker 1: out and talking about it. But it's just so sad
Speaker 1: if these things are happening. So again, no matter what
Speaker 1: you've done, we all make mistakes. Come and come and
Speaker 1: speak to us and reinforce that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and be honest with your kids about that, like
Speaker 2: it's okay if you make mistakes. I made mistakes as
Speaker 2: a teenager. I made mistakes, you know, and also breaking
Speaker 2: it down and saying you're not a bad person if
Speaker 2: you make a mistake. Sometimes we do things that are
Speaker 2: like our behavior is about or not appropriate or not right,
Speaker 2: but you the person are an amazing person and you're
Speaker 2: not a bad person. Because when we pull the behavior
Speaker 2: away from the individual, then it makes it so much
Speaker 2: more easier to understand that what you did was wrong,
Speaker 2: but you are still an amazing here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good way to break it up. It's
Speaker 1: an important message. So okay, sextortion, that's one.
Speaker 2: What about gloomy Okay, So we go into two different
Speaker 2: aspects of this. So the grooming can be where someone's
Speaker 2: just looking. So we've got you know, the dark web
Speaker 2: has a like chat room after chat room of how
Speaker 2: to get images off children. So these people are basically
Speaker 2: training each other on how to do it, and they
Speaker 2: share children's if they get If one predator gets you know,
Speaker 2: images or videos off a child, they'll share their user
Speaker 2: name and say, now your turn, you go and try
Speaker 2: and get some like they're just you know, they're all over.
Speaker 2: And so how they do that is online grooming. They
Speaker 2: have befriend the child if they're under twelve, usually they'll
Speaker 2: befriend the child and pretend to be the same age.
Speaker 2: Over twelve or maybe closer to fourteen, they might pretend
Speaker 2: to be someone just a bit older. So they'll try
Speaker 2: and ment multiple ways. And I'm saying this, one predator
Speaker 2: can have multiple different usernames, different profiles, and they could
Speaker 2: be trying to get this child's images or videos from
Speaker 2: multiple different piles. So their whole purpose is to get
Speaker 2: those images and photos and to basically groom that child
Speaker 2: into a believing they're in a relationship or friendship with
Speaker 2: that person.
Speaker 1: Yeah okay, and other things that with the computer about
Speaker 1: where they're trying to meet with the child, like that
Speaker 1: type of grooming. Because I know the police have been proactive,
Speaker 1: and I love it when they catch these people that
Speaker 1: have been online and thinking they're meeting the child and
Speaker 1: they turn up and there's a big, ugly I know,
Speaker 1: a detective sergeant there.
Speaker 2: I just wish there was more of that, you know that. Sadly,
Speaker 2: I don't know the statistics on this, but it's not
Speaker 2: happening as much as it used to, as in because
Speaker 2: there's so much inappropriate content with children, right, so many
Speaker 2: and one of the types of abuse that we see
Speaker 2: is self produced content. So the child thinks they're talking
Speaker 2: to another child, or they think they're talking to a
Speaker 2: love interest, and they're encouraged to take photos, images, do
Speaker 2: do something sexually explicit online and then the child doesn't
Speaker 2: even know that they're talking to an adult, right, And
Speaker 2: that's self produced content. And the Internet Watch Foundation over
Speaker 2: in the UK, who's a not for profit, They actually
Speaker 2: track all of these. They track these websites and they
Speaker 2: basically take all of get the websites taken down. Their
Speaker 2: hell purpose is to basically scan the Internet and find
Speaker 2: this stuff. Right, And the largest group of abuse happens
Speaker 2: between eleven and thirteen year eleven and thirteen girls. The
Speaker 2: next biggest group is seven to ten girls. And then
Speaker 2: this is self produced content. And then the last group
Speaker 2: is three to six year old girls. Right okay, And
Speaker 2: everyone says to me, how Christy, how three to six
Speaker 2: year olds? Well, three year olds know how to take photos?
Speaker 2: And they if someone's telling them what to do online
Speaker 2: or a six year old, so they basically track it.
Speaker 2: They classify the content that they're seeing ABC one, two,
Speaker 2: three should have say, and they are basically sending it
Speaker 2: off to law enforcement. So self produce content is massive
Speaker 2: because kids are online. They don't realize that they're talking
Speaker 2: to an adult. They're taking their own basically nudes and
Speaker 2: sending it to someone they think they're trusting online or
Speaker 2: because they're coerced or they're bullied or there.
Speaker 1: Well, so all the stuff you're talking it just requires
Speaker 1: that communication between the parent and the child, doesn't it
Speaker 1: look out for this because as a kid, if you
Speaker 1: don't have this conversation, and we don't have the luxury
Speaker 1: of not having these conversations now from it. Just as
Speaker 1: we were told don't talk to strangers back in our day,
Speaker 1: this is a different world and you cannot afford not
Speaker 1: to have these conversations with your children.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the online disinhibition effect, it's an actual thing.
Speaker 2: Talk us through that, Yeah, coined by a psychologist like
Speaker 2: twenty plus years ago. So kids think because they're behind
Speaker 2: this device, they no one knows them. And that's a
Speaker 2: that's part of the the prose of the internet. Because
Speaker 2: for instance, and I had this conversation yesterday, someone said,
Speaker 2: is there any benefits to social media and online for kids?
Speaker 2: And I said, well, think about it from the point
Speaker 2: of view, if you are a person living with a disability,
Speaker 2: you're not disabled online. So there is prose because you
Speaker 2: can be in that space and you can feel that
Speaker 2: no one knows who you are, and so that's the positive.
Speaker 2: But the negative is you're anonymous, so therefore you can
Speaker 2: act and behave however you want, and you know behind
Speaker 2: to be accountability without the accountability. That's another part of
Speaker 2: the online disinhibition effect, Oh my goodness, is because they
Speaker 2: feel like they don't there's no one accountable. I mean, yes,
Speaker 2: police do go and arrest people, but it's not as
Speaker 2: many people as we want because there's just too much
Speaker 2: going online. And then there's the fact that it feels
Speaker 2: like a game. It feels like it's not real life
Speaker 2: when we abuse someone online or we say something or
Speaker 2: we send that nude and adults get caught up in
Speaker 2: this as well. You can just go on any comment
Speaker 2: section on say elbows social media and you see it all.
Speaker 1: No, it's a well, I won't say a new world
Speaker 1: that's been around a long time now, but it's a
Speaker 1: different world that we've got to become accustomed to. Okay,
Speaker 1: let's say that your child has come and spoken to
Speaker 1: you and said that they've been sexually abused or in
Speaker 1: whatever terminology. What's the steps that you should should take.
Speaker 1: How do you break that down? Have you got examples
Speaker 1: or yeah?
Speaker 2: So the first thing we should always do is thank
Speaker 2: you for telling me, or say, you know, thank you
Speaker 2: for telling me, because I think you know, the best
Speaker 2: thing that anyone could ever hear is that it's okay
Speaker 2: to say what you're saying, and it's I know it's
Speaker 2: hard you say. You know, you basically tell them thank you,
Speaker 2: you're so brave, how you know, and just check in
Speaker 2: with them, Are you okay right now? Do I need
Speaker 2: to do anything to make you feel safe right now?
Speaker 2: Because in that moment it took a huge amount of courage.
Speaker 2: There their actual mental and health, well, their well being
Speaker 2: and their health right in that moment is the most
Speaker 2: important thing. If there's a safety risk to the child
Speaker 2: right in that moment, then we need to get police
Speaker 2: onto it straight away. You know, if they're having to
Speaker 2: go home to the perpetrator, or they're about to go
Speaker 2: to the perpetrator's house or whatever, we need police involved
Speaker 2: straight away.
Speaker 1: Okay. So it could be a shared custody scenario, It
Speaker 1: could be a child telling an auntie that she doesn't
Speaker 1: want to go home with all sorts of things. So
Speaker 1: if it gets to that point, you've got to.
Speaker 2: Take immediate action.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there's no excuse for just we'll see how
Speaker 1: this plays out. Okay. The type of things that you
Speaker 1: should ask the child or would you suggest Okay, if
Speaker 1: it's you get a little bit of information and then
Speaker 1: pass it on to the police or pass it on
Speaker 1: to the appropriate authorities. What's your initial conversation. Do you
Speaker 1: go for all the details?
Speaker 2: No, okay, you allow the child to tell you what
Speaker 2: they want to tell you. You know, as long as they
Speaker 2: are able to identify something's happened. You know, you don't
Speaker 2: need to ask all of the questions because the police
Speaker 2: need to ask that. And you know, if the child's
Speaker 2: forthcoming with what they're telling you, then that's fine because
Speaker 2: but don't get into and unfortunately it's really hard for
Speaker 2: parents and people who love children, their child to not
Speaker 2: go what did they do? How much? You know, because
Speaker 2: that's quite traumatizing if you think about, you know, being
Speaker 2: interrogating them about what's.
Speaker 1: Happening, traumatized and also potentially contaminating evidence down the track.
Speaker 1: And like you are specialist in that interviewing children, and
Speaker 1: all different police forces have those skill sets. Yes, but
Speaker 1: it's a specialist skill. It's about not asking leading questions,
Speaker 1: letting the kid tell the story, creating an environment they're
Speaker 1: comfortable in that type of thing. So get the version
Speaker 1: from the child, assess it on the information, the circumstances,
Speaker 1: and then take action.
Speaker 2: Yeah, contact police if it's something that well, you need
Speaker 2: to contact police anyway, come on. But a lot of
Speaker 2: children when they tell someone, they just want to tell someone,
Speaker 2: so they're going to go, Please don't tell anyone, Please
Speaker 2: don't tell police, you know. And as an adults, as
Speaker 2: an individual who you know, we need to make sure
Speaker 2: that children understand they've done nothing wrong.
Speaker 1: That's such an important thing because a lot of a
Speaker 1: lot of the offenders create that belief in the child's
Speaker 1: head that they're complicit in the thing that's being done. Yep.
Speaker 2: And they make children feel like they're either in a
Speaker 2: relationship or that they're special, and they've done all of
Speaker 2: this stuff to make this child completely not complete. It's
Speaker 2: not the word that to make this child believe that
Speaker 2: that if they tell someone, they're going to get in trouble,
Speaker 2: or if they tell someone, the offender is going to
Speaker 2: get in trouble. And you know, children just sometimes and
Speaker 2: this is something this is a hard thing for most
Speaker 2: people to understand, is children do not want their abusers
Speaker 2: to be in trouble. Ultimately, it's only when you become
Speaker 2: an adult and you have adult feels and emotions and
Speaker 2: you realize the damage has done this when you go right,
Speaker 2: I want them to, you know, be responsible for what happened.
Speaker 2: Children just wanted to stop. And so we need to
Speaker 2: handle children with care. We need to make sure that
Speaker 2: they know that it's not their fault, that they didn't
Speaker 2: do anything wrong, that what that adult did is you know,
Speaker 2: they've been the ones who've done something wrong. And I
Speaker 2: had a person on my podcast say to me, she's
Speaker 2: from Tasmania and she said to me, one hundred percent
Speaker 2: of the girls in her family and seventy five percent
Speaker 2: of the boys in her family have been sexually abused.
Speaker 2: And she said, and she was dealing with a cousin
Speaker 2: who was, you know, going through the court process with
Speaker 2: her offender. And she said, has anyone ever said to
Speaker 2: you that you actually did nothing wrong and this is
Speaker 2: not your fault? And she said, no one, And she
Speaker 2: was a thirty year old woman.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes it hard, doesn't it make?
Speaker 2: See so hard? It does because as children we take
Speaker 2: on the burden or children take on the burden of
Speaker 2: the adults. They take on the fact that and there's
Speaker 2: so many barriers to a child saying hey, this is
Speaker 2: happening to me. The grooming is one aspect. The love
Speaker 2: of the offender can be an aspect, The fact that
Speaker 2: there might be violence in the home can be an aspect,
Speaker 2: The fact that they don't know if they're going to
Speaker 2: be safe can be an aspect. All of these aspects.
Speaker 2: But then you go on and take them to the
Speaker 2: police station and then you sit them in a room
Speaker 2: across the table with a camera going, and they don't
Speaker 2: have a safe person in that room. And it's done
Speaker 2: in that way for a specific reason because of the
Speaker 2: Evidence Act and because of how they you know, we
Speaker 2: don't want children to be feel like they have to
Speaker 2: say something or not say something because the adult or
Speaker 2: a family member is in the room. And so they've
Speaker 2: got so many factors that stop them from disclosing. If
Speaker 2: the interviewer and the child don't get along, if the
Speaker 2: interviewer and the child, if the child feels pressured, if
Speaker 2: the child doesn't understand what's happening.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: So there's so many ways and adults struggle with this stuff.
Speaker 2: We need to have a bit more compassion for children to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think, and probably giving the adults an
Speaker 1: understanding of what their child's going to go through, because
Speaker 1: I would imagine then I've had people contact me and
Speaker 1: ask me, what's going to happen. I want to report this,
Speaker 1: what's going to happen with my child? Just talk the
Speaker 1: process through. What happens if a child comes in to
Speaker 1: report being brought in by a parent or a responsible
Speaker 1: adult that there've been a victim of sexual abuse. What's
Speaker 1: the processes that the child goes through.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the initial process is to take the basic details,
Speaker 2: start the investigative process. The child might not get interviewed
Speaker 2: straight away, dependent on the situation. So for instance, if
Speaker 2: the abuser isn't in the home or the child doesn't
Speaker 2: go home to that person, then they might give it
Speaker 2: a day or two to line up their ducks and
Speaker 2: get everything in line. If the child's in immediate danger,
Speaker 2: then they're going to recall people and they're going to
Speaker 2: get someone in to do it straight away, because police
Speaker 2: often work with Department of Child Protection or whatever they're
Speaker 2: called in your state to come up with a safety plan.
Speaker 2: If the child's in a mediate danger, so that's in
Speaker 2: a Priority one perspective. If they're not in immediate danger,
Speaker 2: then it might take a couple of days, but the
Speaker 2: initial investigation starts. It's allocated to a detective because it's
Speaker 2: not something that general duties can obviously investigate in I'm
Speaker 2: pretty sure it would be every state. And then the
Speaker 2: detective then starts the process. The first process or the
Speaker 2: first part of that investigation is to get the child's evidence.
Speaker 2: So that's through a specialist child interviewer or an interview,
Speaker 2: and sometimes you know, if you're in a rural area,
Speaker 2: that might not be straight away, that might be weeks
Speaker 2: from now because you have to either travel, they have
Speaker 2: to travel someone out to you, which used to happen
Speaker 2: a lot with me. And then you know, then once
Speaker 2: that interview's happened, then the actual work starts. So if
Speaker 2: the child discloses, and I'm sad to say not all
Speaker 2: children will disclose the abuse, they might tell that safe adult,
Speaker 2: but then they won't tell the detective or the person
Speaker 2: interviewing them. In those cases, if there's no evidence other evidence,
Speaker 2: then the file or the case will have to be
Speaker 2: filed in sufficient evidence, and then you know that it's
Speaker 2: the child going potentially back into that home where that
Speaker 2: person is. It's the hardest thing. It is the hardest
Speaker 2: thing I have ever had to because a lot of
Speaker 2: the time I would interview kids. Not a lot, but
Speaker 2: quite a lot. But you know, I would interview kids
Speaker 2: and I would know they were abused and they would
Speaker 2: not say anything to me. But through that process I
Speaker 2: did see kids come back and then that when they
Speaker 2: were safe from that abuser, they would come back and
Speaker 2: say something.
Speaker 1: I think even if it doesn't get to that point
Speaker 1: where charges can be laid because the child won't reveal
Speaker 1: at least, and it doesn't work all the time, but
Speaker 1: at least it's put on those as a person, the offender,
Speaker 1: the hole that you've being looked at.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but sadly, I don't think you know, some of
Speaker 2: these people just think, oh, well got away with it,
Speaker 2: and then they ramp it up, or they grew like
Speaker 2: they you know, the child's then silenced more. You know,
Speaker 2: it's just, yeah, there's no Since coming out of the police,
Speaker 2: I thought, you know, when I was in the police,
Speaker 2: I was like, we're doing everything we can, and I'm
Speaker 2: sure you're the same, right, We're doing everything we can
Speaker 2: where this is the way we can have to do it,
Speaker 2: This is all all we can do. Since leaving, I
Speaker 2: see that there's some big holes in the whole process,
Speaker 2: But you know that's the system we've got and that's
Speaker 2: all we've got.
Speaker 1: To use, and it's a system with child abuse. It's
Speaker 1: so it just seems to me to be so under resource.
Speaker 1: That's one consistency I can say confidently across the board.
Speaker 1: Any time I talk to any police officer or form
Speaker 1: of police officer that works in the sexual abuse or
Speaker 1: child abuse areas, they're always overworked and not sufficient resources.
Speaker 2: No, that's right. And yeah it's never enough and there's
Speaker 2: not enough money.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Like I always used to like make the comments when
Speaker 2: I was still in the job, like this is one
Speaker 2: crime type that should have all the money.
Speaker 1: Well, when you look at if we're trying to reduce
Speaker 1: crime and like the impact it has on drug addiction,
Speaker 1: Like how many people find their peace going to drugs
Speaker 1: and dig a little bit deeper what caused them to
Speaker 1: turn the drugs in the first place to master pain
Speaker 1: that they had from when they were sexually abused? So yeah,
Speaker 1: well how about you and I, just two ex cops,
Speaker 1: put it out there to the States politicians if they
Speaker 1: want to have a platform for the next election on
Speaker 1: law and order, you want to reduce crime, reduce child
Speaker 1: sexual abuse? Yes, I think that would be a good
Speaker 1: platform that can be their slogan. Yeah, definitely, what if
Speaker 1: you suspect someone of being a sexual abuser of a child,
Speaker 1: you haven't got the evidence you suspect them, and yeah,
Speaker 1: there's no there's a lot of gray areas there. But
Speaker 1: what sort of advice would you give if someone if
Speaker 1: someone came to you and said, look this person that
Speaker 1: I see hanging around the kids at the local football
Speaker 1: game each week, there's something that doesn't seem quite right.
Speaker 1: Or a child has made a comment, oh, he always
Speaker 1: takes us into the toilets. What do you do with
Speaker 1: that information?
Speaker 2: So, from my experience, the best thing we can do
Speaker 2: is the children with empower empowered children. In fact, they
Speaker 2: went and surveyed or interviewed child sex offenders in a
Speaker 2: Queensland prison and they asked the question, if you weren't
Speaker 2: able to complete the offense or complete the abuse, why
Speaker 2: didn't you? So they asked them, you know, you did
Speaker 2: the grooming, but you didn't finish, like complete the abuse,
Speaker 2: and the child's resistance was the reason. Why. So when
Speaker 2: a child's confident, when they know their rights, when they
Speaker 2: understand that they you know, adults shouldn't act this way
Speaker 2: or other children should n act this way, and they
Speaker 2: offer resistance in the form of no going, you know, leaving,
Speaker 2: you know, don't not putting up with that behavior, telling
Speaker 2: an adult, then a child sex offender can't complete the offense.
Speaker 1: That's huge, and it's a really interesting statistic and it
Speaker 1: winds it right back to where we started. You've got
Speaker 1: to empower the kids very early. And I could imagine
Speaker 1: the way that they approach. It's like strengthening the house
Speaker 1: with all alarms and bars on the window, people, and
Speaker 1: a break into that. To the next house. Yeah, go
Speaker 1: to the next house with a child that has the
Speaker 1: confidence to say no, because most kids don't unless unless
Speaker 1: you give them that power to say no to an adult,
Speaker 1: because we've been taught to be compliant to adults all
Speaker 1: through childhood.
Speaker 2: So okay, So the two things that stop child sex
Speaker 2: offenders offending against a child is the confidence and on
Speaker 2: the noncomplicity of the child and the parent protective parent,
Speaker 2: because a sex offender or someone who wants to abuse
Speaker 2: children will not pick the child that has the parent
Speaker 2: where they will get found out, or they won't pick
Speaker 2: the child that will offer of resistance or won't go
Speaker 2: along with it. They'll pick the next child. Like you
Speaker 2: just said. So in saying that, how do how do
Speaker 2: we do all of this?
Speaker 1: Exactly?
Speaker 2: We create confidence in our children. We talk to them.
Speaker 2: And in those circumstances where you're in a club or
Speaker 2: you're in somewhere that you know, you see something like that,
Speaker 2: First of all, make sure the kids around you know
Speaker 2: that you're the safe adult. You know, hey, if anyone
Speaker 2: ever mistreats you, does anything you don't like, you ever
Speaker 2: feel unsafe, please come and tell me, because you know
Speaker 2: they if they don't know what to do, how can
Speaker 2: they go and do it? And then the second thing
Speaker 2: is to make sure that person knows you watch them.
Speaker 1: Well. I'm just thinking that that scenario, you could walk
Speaker 1: over there because people don't want them. It's a horrible
Speaker 1: allegation if it's an unfounded allegation, but you could be
Speaker 1: walking there with some confidence, say hey, what's going on here?
Speaker 2: Or hey you kids are good?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Like everyone okay here? Oh what are you doing?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Just put the spotlight on them, Just just.
Speaker 2: Watch them a bit, just pay attention, let them know
Speaker 2: that you're paying attention, call out there, and ultimately call
Speaker 2: out there inappropriate behavior. If you ever see it because
Speaker 2: this is the one thing and we we talk I
Speaker 2: talk about this all the time. I had, you know,
Speaker 2: I have people say to me, I don't know how
Speaker 2: to say not to do this, And I'm like, because
Speaker 2: you know, hey, my my the grandfather of my children,
Speaker 2: you know, pat them on the bum all the time.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, okay, and they're like, I don't know
Speaker 2: how to tell them not to do that. Hey, that's
Speaker 2: an inappropriate behavior. Shouldn't do it around kids, you know,
Speaker 2: call out inappropriate behavior when you see it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's I like that that approach, that it's all
Speaker 1: it's a bit awkward, like it's you know, it's just granddad.
Speaker 1: But no, that behavior is not appropriate anymore. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: don't do that.
Speaker 2: And it's and it's you know I always get that.
Speaker 2: Oh but you know how many female sex offenders and
Speaker 2: the criminologists That was on my podcast. She said it's
Speaker 2: actually up around twenty percent, And I was like that,
Speaker 2: you know, that's not one I've heard until recently. And
Speaker 2: and but they do the same things. It's exactly the
Speaker 2: same behavior as exact same things that they do, and
Speaker 2: we should be calling out male female anyone.
Speaker 1: Well, we're starting to see it. It's come out a
Speaker 1: little bit more where women have had inappropriate relationships teenagers
Speaker 1: and different things. We're becoming more aware, but that's what
Speaker 1: it's all about. Like the conversation that we've sat down
Speaker 1: and had over the podcast chat, Now, these are the
Speaker 1: type of things. They're awkward conversations. They're not conversations that
Speaker 1: people tend to just drift towards because you don't want
Speaker 1: to talk about this, and especially if you're sitting around
Speaker 1: in a family environment and rattling off those statistics and
Speaker 1: everyone's sort of looking around looking at each other. But
Speaker 1: I think it's needed to be done, and there's simple
Speaker 1: processes that you're putting in place. And yeah, I think
Speaker 1: it's good on you for getting it out there. Where
Speaker 1: can people get your book? Because I highly recommend it
Speaker 1: and I look at it from a cops point of view,
Speaker 1: How can you prevent crime and preventions better than cure
Speaker 1: and so prevent crime? Where can they get your book?
Speaker 1: Operation Kids Safe?
Speaker 2: It's available on Amazon and Audible. So I did actually
Speaker 2: record it.
Speaker 1: How is that? Yeah?
Speaker 2: That was cool. It was a really cool process. But
Speaker 2: after three days of recording and I think sixteen hours
Speaker 2: for anyone listening and who listens to the audible or
Speaker 2: the s it's on Spotify and Audible. I sound really
Speaker 2: calm at the start, and then my voice gets really
Speaker 2: high at the end.
Speaker 1: Gutsy I with my books, say asked whether I wanted
Speaker 1: to do the audio, and I thought it would be
Speaker 1: pretty pretty easy. But my friend Rob Carlton did it,
Speaker 1: who's an actor, and I'm just so glad I didn't
Speaker 1: do it.
Speaker 2: Really Yeah, look, I think it would have been fine.
Speaker 1: In hindsight, but there was a lot of work that
Speaker 1: goes into it.
Speaker 2: And yeah, yeah, it was fun. Yeah and yeah. So
Speaker 2: and it was actually friends who kept saying, Christy, I
Speaker 2: don't have time to read your book, can can you
Speaker 2: record it?
Speaker 1: It's a good way of taking taking the information in
Speaker 1: So okay, so you can get it in audio and
Speaker 1: through Amazon your podcasts. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So it's called the CAPE podcast, which CAPE stands for
Speaker 2: Child Abuse Prevention and Education. Yeah, it's just on Apple, Spotify,
Speaker 2: all of those.
Speaker 1: And that the risk of getting you in undated with
Speaker 1: people reaching out. Have you got a profile anywhere that
Speaker 1: people can see what you're doing and where you're doing
Speaker 1: your talks or if they want to get you doing
Speaker 1: the talk or whatever.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Perfect, So I'm on TikTok as TikTok cop paid
Speaker 2: you one. I've had that profile for three years and
Speaker 2: yeah and so and funnily enough, well not funny. Sixty
Speaker 2: seven thousand people follow me at the moment on that
Speaker 2: one profile, which is crazy, Like I do not I
Speaker 2: just share when I think about things and when I
Speaker 2: feel like sharing, and you know, people are really grateful
Speaker 2: for what I'm sharing. And then on Instagram, those are
Speaker 2: the two most platforms I use most is Christy mcv
Speaker 2: just my name, okay, And again on Instagram, I share
Speaker 2: more information, free resources, all of that stuff. So yeah,
Speaker 2: the book itself was everything I could think of, and
Speaker 2: in every chapter I give age approp for your guidance
Speaker 2: of what to talk about, how to talk about it,
Speaker 2: et cetera. But on Instagram and that I'm dropping information
Speaker 2: about red flags, you warning, science, behaviors, all of that stuff.
Speaker 1: Well, your passion comes across and I want to congratulate
Speaker 1: you on the fact that clearly you're a passionate police officer.
Speaker 1: And when you leave the cops, I know it's sometimes
Speaker 1: hard to think, how can I do something that gives
Speaker 1: me such purpose in life. But your passion comes across
Speaker 1: in what you're doing now, and I honestly believe in
Speaker 1: the space that you are, you're making a bigger difference
Speaker 1: in what you could have been in the police and
Speaker 1: the police. You're helping people individual cases, but you're getting
Speaker 1: a real strong message across and you should be very
Speaker 1: proud of yourself. And I'm rapped that come on the
Speaker 1: podcast and you've taught me a shitload. So I've got
Speaker 1: to get back to my kids and apologize. So it
Speaker 1: could have been, it could have been a better parent.
Speaker 1: But yeah, if people want to hear more from you,
Speaker 1: it's all there, and get into that book. So thanks
Speaker 1: for coming across. I hope the walk on the Harbor
Speaker 1: Bridge goes well for you, and I hope Sidney puts
Speaker 1: on a sunny day. Thank you cheers. I got to say,
Speaker 1: I think Christy mcveie is making a bigger difference in
Speaker 1: the world of crime outside the cops than she ever
Speaker 1: could inside the cops. She's so informative about child's sexual abuse,
Speaker 1: ways to prevent and stop it, and I'm so happy
Speaker 1: that she's out there doing this work because we're going
Speaker 1: to stop this offense, and people like Christie talking about it.
Speaker 1: Educating people is making a difference