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Speaker 1: This episode contains adult themes and references to violence. This

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Speaker 1: podcast series is brought to you by me Headley Thomas

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Speaker 1: and The Australian. Many listeners will find it extraordinary and

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Speaker 1: unacceptable that, after two very expensive commissions of inquiry, we

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Speaker 1: are at the point in late twenty twenty five where

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Speaker 1: victim survivors of serious crimes like sexual assault in Queensland

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Speaker 1: are left waiting years for DNA evidence that might be

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Speaker 1: crucial to their criminal cases.

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Speaker 2: As a laboratory, your job is to be a service providing.

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Speaker 2: The way you operator is that you have customers who

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Speaker 2: are delivering samples and you need to perform timely analysis,

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Speaker 2: precise analysis to give back to them so that they

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Speaker 2: can do what they need to do with the results

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Speaker 2: in a timely fashion. And none of that is happening

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Speaker 2: in that lab none of it.

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Speaker 1: That is the powerful voice of a courageous victim survivor

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Speaker 1: of a sexual assault in Queensland. As we discuss, we're

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Speaker 1: not going to disclose your name or where you worked,

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Speaker 1: or the company for which you worked, or the town

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Speaker 1: that you grew up in. I'm just going to say

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Speaker 1: that you worked in a mining company in Queensland.

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Speaker 3: Is that good.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's good.

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Speaker 1: Have you worked out pseudonym? What first name you'd like

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Speaker 1: me to call you?

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Speaker 4: We can go with Magda.

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Speaker 3: She is a woman in her thirties.

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Speaker 1: She was working for a mining company during the first

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Speaker 1: half of twenty twenty four when her allegations of sexual

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Speaker 1: assault by a work colleague were made. Magda is in

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Speaker 1: a unique position to talk about the issues confronting the

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Speaker 1: lab because of her own experiences.

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Speaker 2: My career is working in laboratories, so that's what I do.

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Speaker 1: Before the sexual assault that was inflicted upon you. Had

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Speaker 1: you heard about Queensland's DNA lab debacle or about any

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Speaker 1: of the reporting like Shandy story that led us to

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Speaker 1: this place.

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Speaker 2: Honestly, no, You'd see a headline here or there, but

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Speaker 2: none of it grabbed my attention and made me go

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Speaker 2: looking at just wasn't at the forefront for me to investigate.

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Speaker 1: And then you were attacked and you become curious.

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Speaker 3: What was your reaction.

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Speaker 1: When you realized what had been going on in Queensland's

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Speaker 1: leading laboratory that is meant to be helping victims of

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Speaker 1: crime like yourself.

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Speaker 2: I was absolutely gutted, so I started asking questions, what

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Speaker 2: is happening? I couldn't sit with that any longer because

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Speaker 2: I just kept thinking, I am not going to make

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Speaker 2: it to the courtroom. The urgency was just intensifying, and

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Speaker 2: that's when I really started digging into it, because I

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Speaker 2: couldn't understand with the failures in the lab why they

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Speaker 2: weren't outsourcing. How come that had not yet been implemented.

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Speaker 1: After the alleged assault, she underwent a forensic medical examination.

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Speaker 1: Her examination kit was submitted to the Queensland Lab for testing,

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Speaker 1: but even though more than sixteen months have passed since

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Speaker 1: Magda's alleged assault, she was still awaiting the results of

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Speaker 1: her kit testing. When we spoke, Magda shared her experiences

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Speaker 1: in the hope of bringing about change. What's going on

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Speaker 1: as you wait for justice to be started or justice

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Speaker 1: to be delivered.

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Speaker 2: There's obviously the factor of the offender is still out

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Speaker 2: there and he is still working with women, and he's

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Speaker 2: still out there capable of grooming his next potential victim.

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Speaker 4: That itself is urgent.

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Speaker 2: And then the fact that I'm trying so hard to

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Speaker 2: get myself to an externally safe place because my internal

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Speaker 2: state is so shattered, and the very real ideation of

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Speaker 2: suicide was not going away. It was just getting stronger

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Speaker 2: and stronger. It was taking so much strength to fight

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Speaker 2: through that as well as try and process everything else

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Speaker 2: that was going on. So the urgency was just screaming.

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Speaker 3: You were considering taking your own life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, very much so. And it wasn't just a consideration, Headley.

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Speaker 2: I had written literally a contract to myself on how

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Speaker 2: my day would go and how I would carry out

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Speaker 2: what I wanted to carry out. And I had a

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Speaker 2: list of recipients to share letters with just to let

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Speaker 2: them know that I honestly I tried. I really tried

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Speaker 2: to make it to the courtroom, but I couldn't do it.

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Speaker 2: And I'm really sorry that if he does offend, it

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Speaker 2: wasn't for a lack of trying. I'm just exhausted.

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Speaker 3: How did you summon the strength to pull back from that?

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Speaker 5: It took a lot, And I just remember.

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Speaker 2: The one thing that he hasn't taken and that I'm

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Speaker 2: not going to let anyone take from me is the

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Speaker 2: fact that I still have a voice, and I'm going

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Speaker 2: to use that voice no matter how much it shakes,

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Speaker 2: no matter what comes from it, because there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of people who don't have a voice for whatever reason

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Speaker 2: they cannot speak out because they're silenced, or worse, they've

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Speaker 2: been murdered. So I still have a voice and I'm

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Speaker 2: not gonna be silenced any longer. No matter what.

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Speaker 1: Is your decision to talk to me today. Part of

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Speaker 1: that resolve, you have to use your voice. Yes, experiences

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Speaker 1: like Magda's are immensely private.

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Speaker 3: She carefully considered.

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Speaker 1: Whether she wanted to speak with me for the podcast.

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Speaker 1: It can be very difficult and painful to talk about

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Speaker 1: these things, but Magda resolved that it can also be

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Speaker 1: empowering and insightful and help others understand.

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Speaker 3: What is going on and what is going wrong.

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Speaker 1: And Magda shared with me a letter that she wrote

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Speaker 1: about the impact of both her alleged sexual assault and

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Speaker 1: the long lie for DNA testing results.

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Speaker 2: This is not just a letter, It is a glimpse

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Speaker 2: into the aftermath of rape, the silence, the waiting, the

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Speaker 2: delays that wound again and again. When justice depends on

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Speaker 2: a victim's survivor's ability to stay alive, stable, and strong

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Speaker 2: through endless delays and trauma, it is not justice.

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Speaker 5: It is cruelty. When justice is delayed. When DNA is

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Speaker 5: left waiting, your body and voice are held hostage over again.

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Speaker 5: Behind every case number is a human life, a victim,

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Speaker 5: a survivor, a family waiting in pain, waiting and wanting accountability,

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Speaker 5: wanting the cruelty to end. Every day a case is delayed,

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Speaker 5: the burden grows heavier. If we die by suicide, exhaustion

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Speaker 5: or despair, the case collapses. Queensland's DNA lab failures, untested

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Speaker 5: rape kits, unreliable results evidence in Limbo were not just negligence,

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Speaker 5: they were silence. They were complicity, and for many victim

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Speaker 5: survivors that silence has been a near death sentence. This

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Speaker 5: is not failure by accident, It is failure by design.

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Speaker 5: It deepens trauma, it destroys trust.

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Speaker 1: What caused you to write that and what were you

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Speaker 1: thinking as you went through that process?

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Speaker 2: My mind was just screaming. There was so much clutter,

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Speaker 2: so much pain. There's been too inquiries so far and

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Speaker 2: now a third. As victim survivors, we need to be

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Speaker 2: included in this. This reform has to be approached from

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Speaker 2: every single angle because this is not good enough. What

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Speaker 2: has happened and what is currently happening. It needs to

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Speaker 2: be changed.

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Speaker 1: After such a long delay, I asked Magna about the

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Speaker 1: status of her case and whether she had received any

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Speaker 1: results from the forensic testing. Can you just clarify where

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Speaker 1: your case is as you understand it from what you

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Speaker 1: have been.

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Speaker 2: Told Headley, I think that's one of the challenges here.

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Speaker 2: I can't actually clarify because when I speak to the

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Speaker 2: officer in charge, he himself doesn't know. There's just still

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Speaker 2: no results, that is the answer. So I want to

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Speaker 2: know where is my case. Is it in the started case,

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Speaker 2: is it in the not yet started? So I don't

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Speaker 2: know if it's in a queue, I don't know if

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Speaker 2: it's shelved. And I think that's what brings even more

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Speaker 2: distress to this, because there's just no end in sight

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Speaker 2: as to when this is going to come to an end.

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Speaker 1: In my view, some of the most shocking and upsetting

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Speaker 1: findings of doctor Right's review relate to the testing of

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Speaker 1: what Kirsty has called rape kits. This is shorthand for

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Speaker 1: forensic medical examination kits or fm e ks. Kursey Right's

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Speaker 1: findings are so serious that she recommended the lab immediately

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Speaker 1: stopped testing all rape kits due to concerns over the

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Speaker 1: reliability of their results. Here is Kirsty reading the relevant

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Speaker 1: part of her.

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Speaker 6: Report, The DNA review considers all testing of rape kits

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Speaker 6: and any other evidence from sexual offense matters that may

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Speaker 6: contain semen, including underwear clothing betting by Forensic Science Queensland

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Speaker 6: should stop immediately due to the unreliable semen detection methods.

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Speaker 4: It is likely that all rape kits.

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Speaker 6: And evidence suspected of containing semen produced by Forensic Science

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Speaker 6: Queensland using the unreliable methods will require review and where possible, retesting.

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Speaker 1: The three methods used by Forensic Science Queensland to detect

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Speaker 1: seminal fluid were not reliably detecting seamen when it was

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Speaker 1: present on rape kit samples. It led Kirsty to conclude.

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Speaker 6: The unreliable seamen detection methods and the poorly performing seamen

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Speaker 6: DNA extruction methods in combination could be significantly reducing the

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Speaker 6: chance to identify offenders of sexual violence and failing victims

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Speaker 6: of crime.

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Speaker 1: She found that victim survivors in Queensland were waiting for

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Speaker 1: more than twelve months for DNA test results when testing

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Speaker 1: should be completed in two to eight weeks and ideally

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Speaker 1: within five days.

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Speaker 7: The delay is particularly concerning in cases involving sexual violence.

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Speaker 1: This is how the state's Chief Magistrate, Janelle Brassington put

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Speaker 1: it when she wrote to Kirsty.

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Speaker 3: These are her words, it's not her voice.

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Speaker 7: Delay can impact on witness memory, can be a point

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Speaker 7: of anxiety for both victims and defendants of not knowing

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Speaker 7: how their matter is progressing, and it's often of hector

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Speaker 7: and bowel applications, particularly for serious offenses.

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Speaker 1: Kirsty's DNA review report reveals that the situation was so

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Speaker 1: grave by late twenty twenty four that Queensland Police officers

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Speaker 1: took matters into their own hands.

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Speaker 3: They arranged for an.

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Speaker 1: Overseas laboratory to fully test fifteen high priority rape kits

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Speaker 1: from unsolved matters. After the rape kits were sent overseas,

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Speaker 1: the Queensland Lab then contacted the overseas Lab, and the

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Speaker 1: Queensland Lab then asked that the partially tested kits be

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Speaker 1: sent back to Queensland. Incredibly, Queensland Police were kept in

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Speaker 1: the dark about all of that, even though it is

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Speaker 1: the police who were supposed to have formal control over

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Speaker 1: the evidence. Despite its request, the Queensland Lab didn't organize

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Speaker 1: an import permit for the return of the biological samples.

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Speaker 1: In the kits, and that meant the kits couldn't even

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Speaker 1: be returned to Australia. So the kits sat in limbo

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Speaker 1: in the overseas lab for more than three months while

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Speaker 1: back at home victims no doubt anxiously waited and hoped

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Speaker 1: for their testing results. Sorry sagas such as this demonstrate

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Speaker 1: the lab's failure to support police and victims of crime.

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Speaker 1: It also demonstrates an unforgivable breakdown in communication with the

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Speaker 1: lab's partner in solving crime, the police. As Kirsty stated

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Speaker 1: in her final report.

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Speaker 6: Courts Queensland wide relying on DNA evidence are now at

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Speaker 6: a point of critical system failure. There is a two

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Speaker 6: and a half to three year delay in the magistrate's

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Speaker 6: courts for cases awaiting DNA results.

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Speaker 1: The ramifications of delays such as these are debilitating for individuals.

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Speaker 1: As Kirsty reported.

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Speaker 6: A basic analysis of the current forensic science Queensland backlogs

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Speaker 6: and capacity by the DNA Review suggests there is at

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Speaker 6: least six years of work to just clear the backlogs.

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Speaker 6: The backlog is preventing offenders from being arrested, contributing to

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Speaker 6: reoffending across Queensland, preventing justice for victims and preventing unidentified

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Speaker 6: remains from being identified.

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Speaker 1: What is the reason for there being a thousand untested

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Speaker 1: rape kit sitting there?

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Speaker 6: First of all, the lab chose not to outsource samples,

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Speaker 6: so at that stage the backlog was out of control.

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Speaker 6: It was growing by a thousand crime scene samples per

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Speaker 6: month and there was no way the lab was keeping up.

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Speaker 6: For some reason, the lab chose not to use the

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Speaker 6: twenty nine point five million dollars allocated to it at

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Speaker 6: the end of twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 4: If that money had.

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Speaker 6: Been used for rape kits, there would be no rape

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Speaker 6: kit backlog there simply wouldn't be. The second reason is

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Speaker 6: the new rape kits were rolled out August twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 6: The lab wasn't ready for that roll out. They hadn't

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Speaker 6: trained their staff properly, They hadn't implemented and tested their

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Speaker 6: methods properly. They didn't have workflows in place either, so

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Speaker 6: they weren't actually ready to start receiving these new rape kits,

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Speaker 6: but decided to anyway and essentially just put them in

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Speaker 6: the freezer. Le urgent need Headley was to test the

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Speaker 6: rape kits of children. There wasn't an urgent need to

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Speaker 6: buy expensive scientific equipment. The money should not have been

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Speaker 6: redirected away from rape kits and other major crime samples.

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Speaker 1: There is another very sinister aspect to the delay in

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Speaker 1: testing rape kits in sexual assault cases, highlighted in Kirsty's report.

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Speaker 6: Of significant concern is the ongoing risk to child victims

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Speaker 6: and victims with impairment involved in rape or sexual assault allegations.

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Speaker 6: These victims are most likely to know their perpetrators, either

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Speaker 6: as carers or having regular contact with them. Failure to

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Speaker 6: test rape kits for these priority, unresolved cases is likely

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Speaker 6: placing these vulnerable victims at high risk of further rapes

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Speaker 6: or sexual assaults.

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Speaker 1: Kirsty's review found that all of the twenty nine and

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Speaker 1: a half million dollars in funding should have been spent

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Speaker 1: on outsourcing. The external testing of seven hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: rape kits could have occurred in three months for a

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Speaker 1: cost of about four and a half million dollars. It

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Speaker 1: is sobering that the spending of that relatively small amount

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Speaker 1: of money from already approved funds could have completely cleared

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Speaker 1: the rape kit testing backlog. This would have avoided significant

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Speaker 1: ongoing delay and emotional anguish of victim survivors like Magda,

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Speaker 1: as well as the uncertainty faced by accused persons and

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Speaker 1: the prevention of further offenses by those alleged defenders. Kirsty

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Speaker 1: found that the new rape kits were taking longer to process,

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Speaker 1: and that's because Forensic Science Queensland had not properly prepared itself.

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Speaker 1: The lab scrambled to try to catch up and the

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Speaker 1: backlog grew. The delay in the testing was shocking. The

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Speaker 1: new Premier, David Chris Afuley reflected on some of these

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Speaker 1: issues in September twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 8: I think about what would have happened if the tens

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Speaker 8: of millions that had been set aside for outsourcing had

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Speaker 8: actually been spent on what it was asked for and

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Speaker 8: what the approval was given.

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Speaker 4: This lab could be.

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Speaker 8: Today functioning at a much higher standard and we could

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Speaker 8: have dealt with the backlog overseas if the former government

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Speaker 8: had even done what they said they were going to

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Speaker 8: do after denying the problem for a couple of years.

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Speaker 8: The problem is deeper and larger and more tragic than

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Speaker 8: anyone could ever possibly have known.

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Speaker 1: ABCTV's seven point thirty program looked at some of the

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Speaker 1: effects that the testing delays can have on victim survivors,

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Speaker 1: Angela Lynch says the delays have caused some to give

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Speaker 1: up seeking justice.

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Speaker 9: Many of them can't sustain that ability to go through

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Speaker 9: the whole process because it's three hundred days perhaps until

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Speaker 9: you find out the DNA. Then there'll be a period

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Speaker 9: after that for charging, and then there's a whole court

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Speaker 9: process that can take years after that. They can feel

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Speaker 9: pretty worthless. They can feel wide a eyeb Why am

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Speaker 9: I going through this? I can't get on with my life.

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Speaker 1: Magda's comments about her own experiences are very similar.

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Speaker 3: Are you confident that kid has captured the evidence that

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Speaker 3: you need to rely on?

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Speaker 2: I can't see why it shouldn't. I'm going to be

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Speaker 2: very concerned if it hasn't.

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Speaker 1: Before I had interviewed Magda, she listened to the account

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Speaker 1: of a woman we call Olympia. You might remember her

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Speaker 1: candid disclosures about her assault, horrific injuries and their aftermath

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Speaker 1: in episode eight of Shandy's Legacy.

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Speaker 10: What's your impression of the professionalism or not of the

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Speaker 10: Queensland DNA testing laboratory as a result of your own experiences.

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Speaker 11: They made me wait and wait and wait. My mental

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Speaker 11: health was going nuts. I felt suicidal a lot at times.

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Speaker 11: I felt like I didn't want to be alive anymore.

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Speaker 11: I'm disgusted at this lab. Yeah, they treat us people

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Speaker 11: as victims like that. I know they've got so many

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Speaker 11: other victims out there.

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Speaker 4: I get it.

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Speaker 11: I'm not the only victim. And then to be let

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Speaker 11: down and told no DNA, no match.

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Speaker 10: Do you trust their results?

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Speaker 11: No, I don't. I just think that I've been robbed.

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Speaker 11: I've been robbed of my dusters.

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Speaker 1: Magda was encouraged by the strength of Olympia's voice. Magda

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Speaker 1: and I spoke about some of the more practical impacts

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Speaker 1: that the assault and the incredibly lengthy weight for DNA

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Speaker 1: testing results have had on her.

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Speaker 2: I have relocated a second time to avoid triggers, people, places, things,

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Speaker 2: and get the adequate help that I need in a

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Speaker 2: little bit more stability because the delays, they couldn't keep

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Speaker 2: taking precedence over my healing. But I still have quite

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Speaker 2: a distance to go. Profersional life has been very impacted

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Speaker 2: by this. The offender is a former coworker of mine.

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Speaker 2: I really don't know how my professional life looks moving forward.

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Speaker 2: I haven't been able to work since October twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 2: I'm on unpaid sick leave at the moment, and that

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Speaker 2: is a stress in its own To work out what

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Speaker 2: I'm going to do there, I really don't know.

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Speaker 1: So financially it's come of a huge cost professionally in

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Speaker 1: terms of your growth within that company that's been effectively frozen.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, the particular company, I have nothing bad to say

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Speaker 2: about them. They've been incredible with how they've assisted me.

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Speaker 2: I personally, within my own self, I don't see how

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Speaker 2: I could return to the industry or the profession. It

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Speaker 2: just has way too many links and triggers, and I'm

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Speaker 2: not sure how I could return safely.

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Speaker 3: So you'll be looking to retrain somewhere.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, in a new profession that allows me to evolve

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Speaker 2: but doesn't put me back into situations that I feel

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Speaker 2: will bring home. I don't want this to stop my life,

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Speaker 2: but I can't deny the damage that has been done.

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Speaker 1: Vicky Blackburn is in complete agreement with MAGDA about the

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Speaker 1: impact from testing delays. Here's Vicky reading part of a

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Speaker 1: letter that she and Shandy's sister Shanner sent to the

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Speaker 1: DNA Review.

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Speaker 12: A lack of knowledge and information provided to victims through

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Speaker 12: the retesting process could add another level of trauma to victims.

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Speaker 12: This is because not having knowledge of the processes of

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Speaker 12: how the retesting is undertaken can add more anxiety, more mistrust,

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Speaker 12: and more feelings of not being heard or considered.

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Speaker 1: Magda has been a victim twice, first from the alleged

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Speaker 1: sexual assault and then from the labs incompetence and significant failings.

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Speaker 1: What would you say to the people who have responsibility

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Speaker 1: right now?

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Speaker 5: I don't actually have the words for it, because.

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Speaker 2: I just cannot wrap my head around the fact that

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Speaker 2: this is a forensic DNA lab. These samples represent lives

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Speaker 2: that have been impacted by crime. I think I still

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Speaker 2: don't have enough of an understanding to be able to

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Speaker 2: answer that without a whole lot of emotion and anger

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Speaker 2: and the betrayal of what's gone on. That just makes

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Speaker 2: me sick to the core because this is not good enough.

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Speaker 2: What has happened and what is currently happening. It needs

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Speaker 2: to be changed.

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Speaker 1: Where do we go from here and what are the

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Speaker 1: implications for women like Magda?

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Speaker 13: We have to get this system fixed. But most importantly,

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Speaker 13: it's about the victims of Queensland who are waiting way

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Speaker 13: too long to get justice.

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Speaker 1: That was Deb Frecklington, Queensland's new Attorney General, and she

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Speaker 1: was telling me and my colleague Qreena Berger about the

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Speaker 1: challenges facing her and Mick Fuller now and into the future.

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Speaker 1: A major breakthrough since Deb Frecklington and Mick Fuller took

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Speaker 1: charge of the lab after the sudden departure of Lindsay

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Speaker 1: Wilson Wilde, has been an arrangement to deliver hundreds of

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Speaker 1: crime scene samples to the United States, where a lab

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Speaker 1: called Body Technology will test and report back for the Queensland.

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Speaker 3: Criminal justice system.

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Speaker 1: This unusual agreement to send victim's evidence from Australia to

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Speaker 1: the other side of the world will clear some of.

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Speaker 3: The back clog in time.

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Speaker 1: Deb Frecklington and Mick Fuller, the former New South Wales

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Speaker 1: Police Commissioner and now the new Director of Forensic Science Queensland,

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Speaker 1: have to at the body Lab in Virginia.

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Speaker 13: We've been able to visit the lab be there when

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Speaker 13: the first great kits were being opened by their scientists.

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Speaker 13: It was actually heavily quite humbling. You're looking at this

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Speaker 13: Queensland kit that represents a victim and Thankfully, we've got

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Speaker 13: a scientist who is looking at it, going to assess

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Speaker 13: it and get the results back to Queensland so we

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Speaker 13: can get that victim justice that they deserve. We're doing

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Speaker 13: this over a two year period to try to clear

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Speaker 13: that backlog to ensure those rape victims or victims of

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Speaker 13: sexual assault get the cases cleared. And that's what we've

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Speaker 13: got to do, as well as the major crimes, and

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Speaker 13: that hopefully will free up the resources back here in

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Speaker 13: Queensland to continue that hard work. In relation to the.

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Speaker 1: Backlogs, I interviewed one of those survivors who talk to

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Speaker 1: me about the incredible anxiety that could have led to

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Speaker 1: something more drastic arising from huge delay in the testing

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Speaker 1: of the samples from her alleged rape. She's a laboratory

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Speaker 1: employee at the mining site and she told me that

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Speaker 1: you spoke to her, do you recall.

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Speaker 5: Look, I absolutely do.

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Speaker 13: Here is a bright, vivacious young woman who was going

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Speaker 13: about her job with a scientific background. That's the other

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Speaker 13: point of this beautiful girl. She's had to change her

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Speaker 13: entire life, she's moved away. Justice in her mind has

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Speaker 13: not been served and the reason why it is important

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Speaker 13: to listen to those victims is because through their stories,

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Speaker 13: it keeps you going to make sure we can fix

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Speaker 13: the system.

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Speaker 1: My heart breaks for her.

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Speaker 10: Quite frankly.

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Speaker 13: I imagine being at work, how horrific it would be

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Speaker 13: on an isolated mind site to have that happened to

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Speaker 13: you and then have to wait on the evidence.

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Speaker 10: To prove it.

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Speaker 13: It's shocking and it's actually distressing. But what it does

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Speaker 13: is it drives me to know that we've got to

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Speaker 13: keep going until the system is fixed, and that's going

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Speaker 13: to be a long time off.

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Speaker 1: Deb Frecklington lauded doctor Kirsty Wright for having taken time

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Speaker 1: and effort to talk to victims to get their story,

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Speaker 1: and for having used her report to bluntly describe how

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Speaker 1: victims such as Magda have been utterly failed by the lab.

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Speaker 13: There are so many others, Headley, that are out there

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Speaker 13: that don't feel like the justice system has benefited them

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Speaker 13: in any way, shape or for.

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Speaker 14: When Magda spoke with him Headley, she mentioned that the

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Speaker 14: delay in obtaining her DNA results has been retraumatizing for her.

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Speaker 14: Are there any processes in place for liaison officers or

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Speaker 14: people like that to engage with these victims and provide

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Speaker 14: and with updates on the process, because I think the

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Speaker 14: unknown is potentially very traumatic for these.

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Speaker 4: Victims without a doubt.

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Speaker 13: And the other thing I should say is the releasing

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Speaker 13: of the new reviews is also retraumatizing to some of

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Speaker 13: these brave women who did help with the reviews. These

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Speaker 13: people who have been retraumatized, continuing to be retraumatized, need

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Speaker 13: an avenue to be able to have a connection between

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Speaker 13: what is going on and when their matter is going

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Speaker 13: to be looked at through the court system. Now there

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Speaker 13: is a hotline. We put more money into that. We

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Speaker 13: put more money onto actual bodies in these offices to

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Speaker 13: give people access to someone who can listen and can

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Speaker 13: explain the process. Most people are new to it when

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Speaker 13: they've been offended against and they don't understand the process.

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Speaker 13: Add with that a failure of a DNA debacle like

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Speaker 13: we've got that makes it just all the more retraumatizing

445
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 13: for these victims.

446
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 1: I spoke to Magda just the day before this episode

447
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: was coming out, and I wanted to give her a

448
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: heads up first of all that it was about to drop,

449
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: but also to find out how she's going and whether

450
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:19,719
Speaker 1: she's heard anything now. She was cheerful and sounded and

451
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 1: told me like she was going better. But there's still

452
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: a lot of trauma and distress and unbelievably complete uncertainty.

453
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: She still has been told nothing about the status of

454
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: the samples from her alleged rape in terms of the testing.

455
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: Nobody has contacted her. Nobody from the lab, from the

456
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: Queensland Government, from the police have been able to tell

457
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: her where things are at.

458
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 14: I'm just so shocked to hear that, Headley, and quite

459
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 14: frankly appalled. We know, oh the profound effect that the

460
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 14: delay has had on Magda, and she's been so brave

461
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 14: in disclosing that, and it's just unbelievable that she hasn't

462
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 14: been updated. So why is someone like Magda, whose assault

463
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 14: occurred in the early part of twenty twenty four still

464
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 14: waiting for an update all this time later.

465
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 1: It's now a year and a half, that's how long

466
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 1: it has been. The Attorney General told us that she

467
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 1: met with Magda. Magda also met Kirsty Wright, and she

468
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:39,719
Speaker 1: met the victim's commissioner. Given the high level of contact

469
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: that Magda had, you would think that she would have

470
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 1: been told what was going on. What about all the

471
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 1: other people. All the other victims of these sexual assaults

472
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: who haven't had that level of contact, they must all

473
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: be in the same boat. And you can put more

474
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 1: money into victimly, you can set up hotlines. It's not

475
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 1: worth Diddley's squat if people are not proactively contacting victims

476
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: of crime and letting them know what's going on. These

477
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: public servants who are involved in this need to get

478
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: busy and proactively start telling victims where their samples are at.

479
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 1: Are they on the way to the United States? Have

480
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: they been tested? Are they coming back? It can't be

481
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: that hard.

482
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, I agree.

483
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 14: They could make contact with victims directly, or they could

484
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 14: reach out to the officers in charge and let them

485
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 14: know what the current situation is for these samples. The

486
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 14: lab isn't currently testing rape kits. All of the kids

487
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 14: are going over to the Body lab in the States.

488
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 14: Results are coming back from Body, some are here already,

489
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 14: and there are plans for more kids to go over

490
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 14: to Body every month. There's a priority list. There is

491
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 14: information that could be passed on to these victims.

492
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 4: Offenders.

493
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 14: Alleged offenders are also waiting in limbo to know what's

494
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 14: happening with these cases.

495
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: Magda said to me, how hard could it be for

496
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: the government to set up an online notification system password protected,

497
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 1: where people like Magde could put in their case number

498
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 1: or some other identifying feature and receive from that an update.

499
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: It might say something like testing underway, or testing soon

500
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 1: to start, or testing complete notification due something that gives

501
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 1: her an insight into where things are at. Is completely

502
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: unacceptable that after one and a half years, she has

503
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: no idea.

504
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 14: Contacting a thousand people to provide an update on their case,

505
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 14: or setting up a database that tracks a thousand different

506
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 14: crime scene sample tests is not a particularly onerous task.

507
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 1: Many people know about our unconditional admiration for doctor Kirsty Wright.

508
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: Her journey with Shandy's story ard in mid twenty twenty one,

509
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: a millisecond after my Google search for a DNA expert,

510
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 1: doctor Kirsty Wright's name popped up on my laptop screen.

511
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: Kirsty was a bit wary when I first reached out.

512
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 1: I probably was too, we had not worked together before.

513
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: Then she started analyzing hundreds of pages from the laboratory's

514
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: case file of Shandy's case. The more material which I

515
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: sent to her, the more alarmed Kirsty became. The scientific

516
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 1: language in those documents would have been impenetrable for most people,

517
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 1: but for Kirsty was very easy to follow. As she

518
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: poured over those documents in her own time through twenty

519
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: twenty one, she realized that the lab was failing catastrophically

520
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: on multiple levels. Listeners will recall Kirsty's astonishment that the

521
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 1: lab was not even detecting DNA in fresh blood.

522
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 3: At the crime set in.

523
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: Something had to be going badly wrong in the lab.

524
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,320
Speaker 1: We resolved to try to force the then Queensland Labor government,

525
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: led by its Premier Anastasia Palichet, to run an independent

526
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,359
Speaker 1: inquiry into what Kirsty told me back then was a

527
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:22,959
Speaker 1: systemic forensic disaster, the biggest failure by a forensic lab

528
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: in Australia, if not the world. Kirsty told me and

529
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,320
Speaker 1: listeners back in twenty twenty one that thousands of criminals

530
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 1: were not being nabbed and that many would be reoffending

531
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 1: and victims could receive no justice while the failures of

532
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: this government run DNA lab were not being formally addressed.

533
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 1: You and I first started talking in twenty twenty one,

534
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 1: about four years ago, and now we have more evidence

535
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 1: reported by one of the world's leading scientists, doctor Bruce Berdoley,

536
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: commissioned by the new Queensland government to help you get

537
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 1: to the bottom of what's been going on over these

538
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 1: past two years.

539
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 6: He describes it as a lab in constant crisis. Basically

540
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 6: our failure of management, a really toxic culture in the

541
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 6: new lab. The lab wasn't only providing slower service, poorer

542
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 6: quality service, it was providing a lot less service for

543
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 6: the community as well, so it was failing on all fronts.

544
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 6: Scientists raising issues and concerns weren't listened to and were

545
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,800
Speaker 6: sometimes bullied as well. We found that there was a

546
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 6: large group of really ethically motivated and hardworking, benchworking scientists

547
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 6: that really did want the lab to be fixed, and

548
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,760
Speaker 6: we're doing everything that they could to try to raise

549
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 6: issues and solve issues, and they were really distressed coming

550
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 6: to the lab and knowing that the results weren't reliable.

551
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 1: Were you seen by staff in the lab as a

552
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 1: help or a hindrance and you went back for this

553
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: review after those two inquiries and all of the water

554
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,439
Speaker 1: that had flowed under the bridge.

555
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 6: There were definitely staff that were very supportive and absolutely

556
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 6: wanted to work with me and the review team to

557
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 6: help fix the lab. There are other staff that really

558
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 6: weren't sure, and there was a group of staff that

559
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 6: thought that I was some kind of a threat or

560
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 6: some kind of a monster. For a culture to be

561
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 6: fostered where external scrutiny is seen as a threat, I

562
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 6: think that's very, very dangerous. Science is based on scrutiny.

563
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 6: That's the foundation of science, being able to scrutinize each

564
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 6: other's work in a professional way, and I see that's

565
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 6: what I've been doing for the past few years.

566
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 1: Did you identify any scientists who wanted to blow the

567
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: whistle about what was failing over these past.

568
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 6: Couple of years, Absolutely that they felt that there was

569
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 6: no avenue they could go to express that concern.

570
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 1: Now the thresholds rear their ugly head again in your review.

571
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 6: I think that's the worst thing that we found, and

572
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:20,879
Speaker 6: that's something I still just cannot understand. That's what led

573
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 6: to the first inquiry. It was probably one of the

574
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 6: most damning findings from that first inquiry, where the lab

575
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 6: set a threshold that meant that samples below that threshold

576
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 6: should have produced DNA profiles.

577
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 1: You educated me on the critical importance of the threshold

578
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 1: issue when we were doing Shandy Story. Here's a reminder

579
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 1: from episode fifteen of Shandy Story. It was aired in

580
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 1: late twenty twenty one.

581
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:56,240
Speaker 6: They've got an instrument, and his instrument will try to

582
00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 6: detect DNA and then measure DNA in a tube, and

583
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,760
Speaker 6: typically a lab sets a threshold and they say, Okay,

584
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 6: if there's a quantity of DNA below the threshold, we

585
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 6: don't think we're going to get a DNA profile. So

586
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,320
Speaker 6: we're going to stop testing at stage two.

587
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 1: But judges and prosecutors and defense lawyers and victims of

588
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 1: crime and alleged defenders and police don't actually know about

589
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 1: this half way abandonment by the laboratory. At the end

590
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,760
Speaker 1: of stage two, the decision is made in the lab

591
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 1: to cease testing. This is a significant decision with profound

592
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: impacts for cases and particularly for victims of crime. This

593
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:44,439
Speaker 1: is where the threshold levels for the lab's instrumentation come

594
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 1: into focus and where doctor Kirsty writes Newest Discovery is

595
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:50,280
Speaker 1: so revealing.

596
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 6: The threshold used by the DNA lab is astoundingly high.

597
00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 6: This threshold is twice as high as the threshold used

598
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 6: by the New South Wales Forensic Biology Lab.

599
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 4: So that means that the new.

600
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 6: South Wales lab you would only need half the amount

601
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 6: of DNA of prime scene DNA in your tube and

602
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 6: they would decide that they would fully test it. So

603
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 6: the Queensland DNA Lab they require twice as much DNA

604
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 6: to make that decision to fully test that sample.

605
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: Kirsty, in your view, has the Queensland and the biotree

606
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 1: set and an appropriately very high bar for DNA to

607
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: be taken seriously and tested further.

608
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 6: The threshold that they've used is extremely high, and I

609
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 6: don't understand why they would set it so high. You

610
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:52,399
Speaker 6: would have more than enough DNA in that sample if

611
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 6: it was below that threshold. You only really need very

612
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 6: very small amounts of DNA to be able to get

613
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 6: a profile. For some reason, they're using this really sensitive

614
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 6: DNA profiling method, but they're setting this incredibly high threshold

615
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 6: for the crime scene samples to have to exceed to

616
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 6: then fully profile.

617
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: I thought it was one of the most alarming things

618
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,839
Speaker 1: that came out of the whole package, the decision by

619
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 1: lab managers to change the thresholds so that they actually

620
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 1: were able to test fewer samples and get fewer results,

621
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:41,839
Speaker 1: resulting in fewer offenders being identified, and they actually took

622
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 1: that as a win because it meant that they were

623
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 1: achieving their targets in terms of processing. But it was

624
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,800
Speaker 1: a terrible failure because it meant that they were letting

625
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 1: go a lot of people who had raped, who had

626
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 1: seriously assaulted, who had even murdered people, and whose DNA

627
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:05,320
Speaker 1: was left behind in crime scene samples, but the DNA

628
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 1: was not being detected in the lab because the lab's

629
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 1: scientific threshold for the detection of cells had been changed.

630
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 4: That's right, Headley.

631
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 6: The lab implemented a threshold that they knew was too high,

632
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 6: and they knew that it would miss DNA from critical

633
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 6: crime scene samples. Those samples are now being fully tested,

634
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 6: as per one of the recommendations from the Soffronoff.

635
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: Inquiry, and that's a good thing.

636
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 6: Oh absolutely, So it's good that these samples dating back

637
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 6: to twenty eighteen are now being fully tested, and what

638
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:46,240
Speaker 6: we're finding is about twenty percent of those are now

639
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 6: providing usable profiles. They involve sexual assaults on children, where

640
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 6: the first time they were tested, no DNA was detected,

641
00:41:56,239 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 6: and now they're being fully tested. There's semen on on pants,

642
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 6: there's DNA on knives, there's DNA being detected on rape

643
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 6: kit samples. These cases the police have flagged as critical

644
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:16,840
Speaker 6: to identify the offenders or offender and are now providing

645
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 6: useful results. So this threshold is such a key issue

646
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,360
Speaker 6: and it's justice for the victims. They're finally now getting

647
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 6: the results that they should have gotten years ago.

648
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 1: But because of the backlog, it's coming slowly. Yes, it

649
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: is a matter of public record that as a result

650
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 1: of the revelations in the podcast, a top level executive

651
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:05,720
Speaker 1: decision was made by the Queensland Government in mid twenty

652
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 1: twenty two to completely remove those thresholds which Kirsty Wright

653
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 1: had exposed in episode fifteen and in subsequent evidence at

654
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 1: Walter Sofronoff's inquiry in twenty twenty two, the threshold levels

655
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:24,839
Speaker 1: got a lot of attention. The craziness of that threshold

656
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 1: policy was subjected too close scrutiny.

657
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 3: There was a good outcome.

658
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 1: The lab began fully testing all samples and that led

659
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 1: to the DNA of offenders being identified. But in her

660
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 1: most recent review in recent months, Kirsty discovered that the

661
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:48,359
Speaker 1: lab had quietly made another very serious change while under

662
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 1: the direction of doctor Lindsey Wilson Wilde, What is the

663
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 1: current position that you discovered in relation to thresholds Under

664
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 1: the last two years of management.

665
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 6: All samples were fully tested until the nineteenth of November

666
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 6: twenty twenty four, when the new lab introduced a new

667
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 6: DNA testing threshold.

668
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:17,839
Speaker 1: In your view, is that new threshold an appropriate threshold?

669
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 6: Theoretically it looks like it is the correct threshold, But

670
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 6: during the review I dug into it further and I

671
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:29,320
Speaker 6: looked at the experiments that the lab conducted to get

672
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 6: that threshold, and you're not going to believe this. As

673
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 6: part of those experiments, the lab didn't fully test the

674
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 6: samples under the new threshold. So it set this new threshold,

675
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 6: but then never fully tested any samples below the threshold,

676
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:50,359
Speaker 6: just to make sure they wouldn't produce a profile, and

677
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:54,280
Speaker 6: they implemented this threshold. So I started looking for data.

678
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 6: I was curious to see if this new threshold was

679
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 6: actually accurate, was it reliable? And I foun found in

680
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 6: some experimental data that one hundred percent of samples below

681
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 6: the new threshold we're generating profiles.

682
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:16,800
Speaker 1: We're talking about highly educated scientists working in a laboratory

683
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:21,320
Speaker 1: that is suddenly well resourced. A couple of one hundred

684
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:26,319
Speaker 1: million dollars has been pledged because the laboratory has been

685
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 1: through strife and scandal and publicity and inquiry on a

686
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 1: scale that most laboratories would never ever see. And the

687
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:42,360
Speaker 1: threshold was a big part of the problem. How do

688
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 1: you decide to introduce a new threshold with that backdrop

689
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: but not test to see whether samples that are below

690
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:58,320
Speaker 1: that threshold could produce the DNA of an offender.

691
00:45:58,719 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 4: It's unbelievable.

692
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 6: Headly, of everything that I found in the review, was

693
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 6: the most disturbing because this was the most important issue

694
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:10,479
Speaker 6: in the first inquiry. This should have been the one

695
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 6: thing that they did to their absolute best ability, and

696
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 6: it was only half done, or it wasn't done adequately

697
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 6: at all. The team responsible for this new threshold, it's

698
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 6: a new research and innovation team that was put together,

699
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 6: multiple managers within the team total of ten scientific staff,

700
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 6: and it was their job to be able to conduct

701
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 6: these experiments appropriately. And I don't think you even need

702
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 6: to be a scientist to understand that before you introduce

703
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 6: or nominate a threshold, you need to fully test the

704
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 6: samples that fall below the threshold. And headly this came

705
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 6: about because the police flagged to me during the review

706
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:55,359
Speaker 6: that they had a Priority one sample that they sent

707
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 6: to the lab after the new threshold was introduced, and

708
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 6: it came back with no DNA detected. And this was

709
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 6: a particularly brutal and violent crime and the police were

710
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 6: really relying on this DNA sample to help progress their investigation.

711
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 6: So the police, to their credit, took the decision to

712
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:22,280
Speaker 6: ask the lab to fully test this Priority one sample,

713
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:27,320
Speaker 6: and to their surprise, it resulted in a usable sample,

714
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 6: usable profile, which progressed the investigation. So that was my

715
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 6: first flag that something was really really wrong. It was

716
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:39,800
Speaker 6: a flag because the lab reported back to the police

717
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 6: that there was not enough DNA in this sample, so

718
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 6: we're not going to fully test it. So the lab

719
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:48,360
Speaker 6: didn't fully test this Priority one sample because it fell

720
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 6: below the new threshold. It was the police who decided

721
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 6: to tell the lab to fully test the sample. If

722
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 6: it was left up to the lab, this Priority one

723
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:02,280
Speaker 6: sample from this violent would never have been fully tested

724
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 6: and would not have produced.

725
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 4: This usable profile.

726
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 6: So I was really surprised when I started to see

727
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:13,319
Speaker 6: that samples below this threshold started to generate profiles.

728
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 4: So I dug a little bit deeper and what.

729
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 6: I found, Headley, is the instrument the lab users to

730
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:26,920
Speaker 6: measure the DNA for this critical threshold isn't working reliably.

731
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 6: And even more disturbingly, the lab knows this instrument isn't

732
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:35,799
Speaker 6: working reliably, it.

733
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 4: Just gets worse.

734
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 6: So I was just lucky that I had that data

735
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,839
Speaker 6: and I requested it from the lab, and that's when

736
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 6: I did the analysis and found that one hundred percent

737
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 6: of those were generating profiles below the threshold. It was

738
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,839
Speaker 6: quite staggering because if you go back to the first inquiry,

739
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 6: the percentage of samples below the threshold that was generating

740
00:48:57,880 --> 00:48:59,840
Speaker 6: results was ten point six percent.

741
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 4: I'm now talking about one hundred percent.

742
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 1: Do you know whether lab managers were surprised when you

743
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 1: discovered this and showed them the results, or were they

744
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 1: aware of what you had to discover for yourself through

745
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 1: your own detective work in the lab.

746
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 6: The lab knew even before the review that the instrument

747
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 6: they were using to measure the DNA in the samples

748
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:32,240
Speaker 6: wasn't working accurately. They knew that they had the data

749
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 6: that I had prior to the review, so they knew

750
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 6: that the new threshold would mean that there was a

751
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 6: very large number of samples that could provide profiles that

752
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 6: weren't being tested.

753
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 1: They knew, or to put it another way, they knew

754
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:53,319
Speaker 1: that offended DNA was not being detected in a very

755
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:56,400
Speaker 1: large number of samples where it could have been detected.

756
00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 6: Absolutely, they would know that there's a very very high

757
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:05,840
Speaker 6: risk of implementing this new threshold would lead to offenders

758
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:10,320
Speaker 6: not being captured and would lead to miscarriages of justice.

759
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 6: And they actually documented that.

760
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 3: Well, let's go to that.

761
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 1: Can you pass the documents that I've requested from the

762
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: Office of the Attorney General the Recklington. This is an

763
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:29,399
Speaker 1: internal document. It's headed Risk Assessment. It's dated May twenty

764
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 1: twenty four. What it says is that limit of detection,

765
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:40,759
Speaker 1: which is another word for threshold, was approved on the

766
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:44,959
Speaker 1: twenty third of August twenty twenty three, and was also

767
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:50,279
Speaker 1: approved some months later by the Interim Advisory Board for

768
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 1: the lab in February twenty twenty four.

769
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:55,359
Speaker 4: Can I just stop you there.

770
00:50:55,400 --> 00:51:00,120
Speaker 6: That's actually misleading because what I found through obtaining documents

771
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:04,120
Speaker 6: from the Advisory Board is the Advisory Board is actually

772
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:08,799
Speaker 6: asking the laboratory as a priority to complete the experiments,

773
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:13,279
Speaker 6: and the laboratory still have not completed the experiments that

774
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:17,360
Speaker 6: the advisory Board requested, yet went ahead and implemented the

775
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 6: new threshold.

776
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 1: Anyway, what it says on page one of this risk

777
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 1: assessment is that implementation of a limit of detection threshold

778
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 1: in the current environment has the potential to expose forensic

779
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 1: science as Queensland to further negative criticism and media attention.

780
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 1: When you read that paragraph, Kirsty, what did you take

781
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:45,880
Speaker 1: from it?

782
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 4: The risk assessment disturbs me.

783
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:55,360
Speaker 6: This risk assessment is clearly highlighting the lab is nervous

784
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:58,880
Speaker 6: about implementing a new threshold.

785
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 1: They're sitting out plan, weighing the risks correct and they're

786
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 1: identifying whether journalists such as myself are going to stumble

787
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:14,759
Speaker 1: upon this or be lenkes of information that could expose

788
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:19,720
Speaker 1: the laboratory and its management team to sustain criticism. Because

789
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:23,400
Speaker 1: what they're proposing to do is the opposite of what

790
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 1: the lab was meant to do, which was to fully

791
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:27,840
Speaker 1: test samples.

792
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 6: So one of the possible consequences that the lab actually

793
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:37,120
Speaker 6: notes in this risk assessment is missed opportunity to provide

794
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 6: probative evidence to the justice system, and they say this

795
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:43,960
Speaker 6: represents an extreme consequence.

796
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 1: Okay, so they fully understand what they're doing.

797
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 4: Absolutely.

798
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:54,840
Speaker 1: They also highlight as a possible consequence of the implementation

799
00:52:55,040 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 1: of what they're proposing, negative media attention and possible notation

800
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:05,799
Speaker 1: in national media. This represents a major consequence. And the

801
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 1: third thing they highlight is staff may fail to comply

802
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 1: with the change due to lack of understanding or misconceptions

803
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 1: around personal risk or otherwise. I don't know whether I'm

804
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 1: overthinking it, but that point seems to me to be

805
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:27,959
Speaker 1: saying staff who know that this is how the lab

806
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 1: got into so much strife last time, may balk at

807
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 1: going back to a method that is guaranteed to miss

808
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:41,320
Speaker 1: the detection of DNA and to miss the detection of offenders.

809
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 6: The risk assessment is flagging that staff may feel uncomfortable

810
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 6: with not fully testing samples.

811
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:52,960
Speaker 1: But the community wasn't told. The police weren't even duld.

812
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:54,239
Speaker 4: No, absolutely not.

813
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:57,319
Speaker 6: The police had no idea how poorly these experiments were

814
00:53:57,320 --> 00:53:59,799
Speaker 6: being conducted, and they had no idea that the lab

815
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 6: that their instruments weren't working properly. The new threshold was

816
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 6: introduced and the police didn't get any training, any education

817
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 6: about what that new threshold meant. So without education, it's

818
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:17,800
Speaker 6: really difficult for the police to know when they should

819
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 6: request for their samples to be fully tested or not.

820
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 6: They didn't tell the police that they never fully tested

821
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:27,400
Speaker 6: samples below the threshold before it was introduced. The police

822
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 6: were completely kept in the dark about that.

823
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 1: This document produced by the Lab says that it is

824
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 1: expected that any negative media attention will not be sustained.

825
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:44,759
Speaker 6: This is why this issue is so important. It's this

826
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:48,680
Speaker 6: lack of appreciation and understanding about what their purpose is,

827
00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:52,359
Speaker 6: the impacts that this has on police investigations. So this

828
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:57,360
Speaker 6: represents such a betrayal of trust the community and the victims.

829
00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:00,960
Speaker 6: I cannot believe, of all things, the Lab has done

830
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:04,240
Speaker 6: this again, and they've knowingly done it again.

831
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:08,440
Speaker 1: When you dug into it, Kirsty, what were you told

832
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 1: by Lab staff about why they had done it again.

833
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:16,879
Speaker 6: We tried to get to the bottom of that, and

834
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 6: we got a lot of side stepping, got a lot

835
00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:23,360
Speaker 6: of blank looks, and there was almost a belligerent response

836
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:27,839
Speaker 6: when we flagged what these issues were. There was no

837
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:32,800
Speaker 6: real appreciation of why these were such a concern.

838
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 1: What is your understanding of why they went forward with this.

839
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:44,000
Speaker 6: The risk assessment says that implementation of the new threshold

840
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:48,719
Speaker 6: has a potential to significantly reduce backlogs, and at the

841
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:52,359
Speaker 6: time this risk assessment was written in May twenty twenty four,

842
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:54,800
Speaker 6: the backlogs were out of control.

843
00:55:55,080 --> 00:56:00,080
Speaker 1: So once again, senior managers have decided to affect of

844
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 1: the compromise on the potential to solve crimes by ensuring

845
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:11,240
Speaker 1: that fewer DNA crime scene samples are fully tested.

846
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:13,000
Speaker 4: That's exactly right.

847
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 6: It's completely unbelievable, and it shows that this lab hasn't

848
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 6: learned anything. There has to be significant change within this

849
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:26,080
Speaker 6: lab otherwise this will keep on repeating and repeating and repeating.

850
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:29,320
Speaker 6: I can't keep on going in and finding these things.

851
00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:33,720
Speaker 1: The heads must have rolled after you discovered these things

852
00:56:33,719 --> 00:56:34,560
Speaker 1: and reported them.

853
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:38,279
Speaker 6: Heads haven't rolled. So no one's been sacked, but there

854
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:43,759
Speaker 6: hasn't even been any discipline reaction. If those responsible for

855
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:47,960
Speaker 6: the failings and for the deception over the last two

856
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:52,040
Speaker 6: and a half years, if they are not removed from

857
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 6: the laboratory, then the lab will not be fixed.

858
00:56:56,080 --> 00:56:59,719
Speaker 4: I am certain of that. Have you conveyed that, yes

859
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 4: to I've conveyed.

860
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:07,000
Speaker 6: That to the new director, Mick Fuller, and I've also

861
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:11,839
Speaker 6: conveyed that to the Attorney General's office. There's too much

862
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:14,480
Speaker 6: writing on this head leaf. There's no way that the

863
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:19,520
Speaker 6: public will trust this lab again unless people are held accountable,

864
00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:22,320
Speaker 6: unless there's significant change.

865
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:25,880
Speaker 1: It's a betrayal of victims of crime. It's a betrayal

866
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 1: of police in the community. It's a betrayal of taxpayers

867
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:34,480
Speaker 1: who have funded these incredibly expensive reforms.

868
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:38,280
Speaker 6: We want the Queensland community and victims to be able

869
00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 6: to trust that lab again. That's the number one priority.

870
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:44,120
Speaker 6: We need to restore trust in the judicial system again.

871
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:48,360
Speaker 1: Is it possible that the people who are making the

872
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:54,280
Speaker 1: decisions to not discipline those scientists worried that they're just

873
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:57,440
Speaker 1: going to run out of scientists so they just have

874
00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:01,200
Speaker 1: to try to deal with it and a blind eye

875
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:04,320
Speaker 1: to these disgraceful decisions.

876
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:08,400
Speaker 6: It's actually the opposite, because we found there was excellent

877
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 6: benchworking scientists and they're the ones that we need to keep.

878
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:16,720
Speaker 6: And they've expressed real distress that no one's been held

879
00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:19,880
Speaker 6: accountable for what's in our reports and they don't want

880
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:22,640
Speaker 6: to work in a lab with those kinds of people.

881
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 6: We're going to lose the good scientists and a lot

882
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:28,960
Speaker 6: of them, just to keep a very small number of

883
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:30,200
Speaker 6: rotten scientists.

884
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:34,560
Speaker 1: You've talked about this being a failure of management. He

885
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:41,040
Speaker 1: held a comment on Lindsay Wilson Wiles's management performance over

886
00:58:41,080 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 1: these past two years.

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00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:47,200
Speaker 6: As part of my role in the review, I can't

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00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:52,680
Speaker 6: publicly name or criticize any specific scientists. That was a

889
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 6: restriction placed on me, but it actually ended up being

890
00:58:56,840 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 6: a blessing in disguise because it forced me to take

891
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:04,560
Speaker 6: a different approach. It forced me to really dig deep

892
00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:09,600
Speaker 6: into documents, to review a large number of documents. While

893
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:15,760
Speaker 6: these restrictions were imposed on me for possibly one desired outcome,

894
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 6: it had the opposite effect. I found so much more

895
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:21,960
Speaker 6: thanks to these restrictions.

896
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:25,520
Speaker 1: Was the lab just set to be a task or

897
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:31,400
Speaker 1: is it just, in your view, very poor decision making

898
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:32,880
Speaker 1: near the top or at the top?

899
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 4: I think it's a little bit of all of that. Pedley.

900
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 1: Can we turn this thing around? Can this basket case

901
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:43,280
Speaker 1: become a world leading laboratory.

902
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:46,520
Speaker 6: I don't like using the term world leading because we're

903
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:49,360
Speaker 6: not even close to that in our lifetimes. But what

904
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:51,960
Speaker 6: we want is a lab that's going to serve the

905
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:54,160
Speaker 6: needs of the police and the courts and the community

906
00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:57,920
Speaker 6: and the victims because the will is there across the system.

907
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:01,480
Speaker 6: There's a lot of really hard working, dedicated people. If

908
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:04,320
Speaker 6: we don't get good managers in this lab will just

909
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:07,200
Speaker 6: keep on failing and it'll be years and years and

910
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:08,200
Speaker 6: years of failure.

911
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:13,600
Speaker 1: In the course of your new investigations, Kirsty, you dealt

912
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 1: with magistrates and judges. You've got feedback from people working

913
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:21,320
Speaker 1: in the criminal justice system. What are they telling.

914
01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:26,120
Speaker 6: You in all levels of Queensland courts all across Queensland.

915
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:31,600
Speaker 6: There's a high degree of frustration. The Chief Magistrate and

916
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:36,960
Speaker 6: Deputy Chief Magistrate. They've said the delays waiting for DNA

917
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:40,080
Speaker 6: results are now extending two and a half.

918
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:42,560
Speaker 4: To three years. Cases are actually.

919
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:46,880
Speaker 6: Being thrown out because of the DNA delays. We're also

920
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:51,720
Speaker 6: seeing people being released because of uncertainty around the testing

921
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:54,000
Speaker 6: time frames and some of these people could be a

922
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:58,080
Speaker 6: danger to the community as well. It's reducing opportunities to

923
01:00:58,520 --> 01:01:00,760
Speaker 6: remove repeat offenders from the street.

924
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:01,320
Speaker 3: Well.

925
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:05,040
Speaker 1: It's an enormous stress for victims of crime as well.

926
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 6: It's prolonging their initial trauma and introducing new trauma that

927
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:16,120
Speaker 6: uncertainty is just destroying their lives.

928
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:18,120
Speaker 3: This is worse than I was.

929
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:21,600
Speaker 6: I think this is the last chance to fix the lab.

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01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:32,280
Speaker 1: This episode of Shandy's Legacy was investigated and written by

931
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:37,160
Speaker 1: me Headley Thomas and Karina Berger. Audio production for this

932
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:42,440
Speaker 1: podcast series is by Wasabi Audio and original theme music

933
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:46,600
Speaker 1: by Slade Gibson. This podcast series is brought to you

934
01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:51,120
Speaker 1: by me Headley Thomas and the Australian newspaper and digital side.

935
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:54,360
Speaker 1: Visit Shandy dot com dot au.

936
01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:58,760
Speaker 3: That's s h A n d e.

937
01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:04,600
Speaker 1: E dot com dot au for additional documentary material. Anyone

938
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:08,760
Speaker 1: with information about the murder of Shandy Blackburn can contact

939
01:02:08,840 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 1: me confidentially by email by going to Shandy dot com

940
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 1: dot au