1 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: From the Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey. 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: It's Wednesday, November twenty six, twenty twenty five. Labour's likely 3 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 1: to take a light touch on regulating artificial intelligence when 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 1: it unveils a national AI plan next week. That's an 5 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: exclusive by The Australian's Ben Packham today. In a move 6 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: the government's already discussed with unions, the government will likely 7 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: avoid a system like the European Union, where there's a 8 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: sweeping and strict code to apply to AI models. Australia 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: system would likely be more case by case when issues arise. 10 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: That story is live now at the Australian dot Com 11 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: dot U. For one president to call another is a 12 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: big deal. When it's China's Shijinping Ringing Donald J. Trump, 13 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: both men who like to be the most powerful person 14 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: in any inversation, it sends the analysis into overdrive. So 15 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,679 Speaker 1: what did the presidents discuss in their call and what 16 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:19,680 Speaker 1: does it all mean? Greg Sheridan, is here you ready 17 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 1: to talk about China? 18 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, It's like a quiz. 19 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: Every day I bring you up and grill you about 20 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: something else. 21 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 2: Nice variety of subjects. 22 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: That's good to This call will be recorded. Greg Sheridan 23 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: is The Australian's Foreign editor. Greg Donald Trump and Shi 24 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: Jinping have spoken on the phone. Reports are emerging from Washington, 25 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: DC that it was President she who called Donald Trump. 26 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: Does it matter who called who when leaders speak at 27 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: this level, not. 28 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 2: Really, No, No, it doesn't really matter. It's good in 29 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 2: a way that they're speaking. But the danger has always 30 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 2: been that Trump is prone to being flattered, and he 31 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 2: has a weakness for very strong leaders talking to him, 32 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 2: and both Hi Jinping and Vladimir Putin seem to be 33 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:20,359 Speaker 2: pretty good at manipulating him pretty well. You know, in principle, 34 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 2: you've got to be happy that they speak. But the 35 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 2: other concerning thing about this, though, is there seems to 36 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 2: be a lack of transparency. Hi Jinping revealed that they 37 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 2: talked about Taiwan. Trump didn't mention that. I must say 38 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 2: that instinctively makes me a bit worried. 39 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 1: You don't think you just forgot. 40 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 2: No, I certainly don't think he just forgot. There's a 41 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 2: tremendous challenge in reporting Trump because he is really a 42 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 2: mixed grill. He does some good things, some things better 43 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 2: than other people have done in the office, but he 44 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 2: does some terrible things. Two. I mean, I think this 45 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 2: piece deal that he's trying to foist on Ukraine is 46 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 2: a shocking betrayal and very much against America's interests and 47 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,079 Speaker 2: Ukraine's interests and the interests of democracy and so on. Now, 48 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 2: there's always been the worry that Trump might do a 49 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 2: similar deal over Taiwan with Shu Jinping. We're certainly not 50 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 2: at that point yet. But you know, one thing you 51 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 2: can't rely on from Trump at all is clarity or consistency. 52 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: They seemed to have discussed a number of topics in 53 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: this phone call. One of them was Ukraine. What's China's 54 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: skin in that particular game. 55 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 2: Well, China has been absolutely critical in enabling Russia to 56 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 2: prevail in the Ukraine conflict, and America has imposed no 57 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 2: significant cost on China for doing this. So in the 58 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 2: early days of American and European sanctions and Ukraine's much 59 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 2: fiercer than expected military resistance and effort, the Russian economy 60 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 2: was in a lot of trouble, a great deal of trouble. Now, 61 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 2: the thing that sustained it more than anything else was 62 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 2: its Chinese lifeline. It did huge trade with China huge 63 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 2: energy exports. It also imported a great deal of technology 64 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 2: from China, which at the very least was what they 65 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:24,559 Speaker 2: call dual use technology, that is to say, technology which 66 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:28,919 Speaker 2: is ostensibly for peaceful purposes but is easily converted for 67 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 2: military purposes. And China gave cover to Iran in North 68 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 2: Korea to provide military supplies to Russia. And China also 69 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 2: encouraged the Global South to continue trading with Russia. So 70 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 2: China has been Russia's best friend through all this conflict 71 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 2: and has paid really no price. And Russia now looks 72 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 2: as though it's winning, and China would be delighted at that. 73 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 2: And if in the end Trump wants to China to 74 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 2: give a benediction to his coercion of Ukraine into a 75 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 2: one sided peace agreement, that's not something that fills your 76 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 2: heart with joy either. 77 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 1: One of the issues that, as you say, Shijinping said 78 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: that they spoke about was Taiwan. The Chinese kind of 79 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 1: read out of this phone call said that President she 80 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 1: reiterated that Taiwan's return to China was an important component 81 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 1: of the post war international order, and said that mister 82 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: Trump affirmed that the US understands the importance of the 83 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: Taiwan issue to China. Those are platitudes, But what does 84 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: it mean beneath the surface? Do you think there greg 85 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: the fact that this issue was discussed at all in 86 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:43,559 Speaker 1: a conversation, perhaps that was initiated by President she Well, 87 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 1: the truth is clear. 88 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 2: I often have to give you this answer. The truth 89 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 2: is I don't know, but neither does anybody else. Trump 90 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 2: is so waybile, so mercurial, so unpredictable. You know. They're 91 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 2: a very good book by his former national security advisor 92 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 2: John Bolton, in which he says that he expects Trump 93 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 2: to do a deal which sells Taiwan out, because Trump 94 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 2: in private kept saying, look, how tiny the Taiwan market 95 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 2: is compared to the China market. So Trump does see 96 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 2: things very much in me cantillist terms. Now, it's been 97 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:25,840 Speaker 2: an object of American foreign policy forever, since nineteen forty nine, 98 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 2: that Taiwan should not be conquered by mainland China. It 99 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 2: will be a shocking thing in principle if this happened. 100 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 2: There are twenty three twenty four million people in Taiwan. 101 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 2: They live in a twenty four carot democracy, free elections, 102 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 2: free change of power, civil liberties. I think it's the 103 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 2: only Asian country where gay marriage is legal. You know, 104 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 2: it's just a twenty four carot liberal democratic society. It's 105 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 2: been ruled by Beijing four years since eighteen ninety five, 106 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 2: from nineteen forty five to ninee forty nine, who has 107 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 2: never been ruled by the Communist Party, And there is 108 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 2: no justification in international law or geostrategic consideration, anything else 109 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 2: for Beijing to invade Taiwan to take it over. If 110 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 2: Beijing does that and succeeds, I think that's pretty much 111 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 2: the end of the American security order in the Pacific, 112 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 2: diabolical consequences for Australia. It also gives China massive military 113 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 2: power projection capabilities. But what Trump is showing us is 114 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 2: that basically he's unlikely ever to fight for Taiwan. He's 115 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 2: unlikely ever to fight for anything. The sad acronym Taco 116 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 2: Trump always chickens out, it seems, is pretty true. So 117 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 2: people say, but look what he did with Iran. But 118 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 2: in fact, he did one bombing raid with Iran after 119 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 2: Israel had won the war. Now you know, I praised 120 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 2: him for it because it made it more likely that 121 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 2: Iran's nuclear program was severely damaged, but he took no 122 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 2: risk there Israel took all the risk. And Trump always 123 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 2: identifies with a winner. Trump identifies with the strong against 124 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 2: the weak. You know that, I think is why he's 125 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 2: instinctively sympathetic to Russia against Ukraine, and why he's instinctively 126 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 2: sympathetic to China against Taiwan. But having said all of that, 127 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 2: Trump is completely unpredictable, and sometimes when he comes up 128 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 2: with a bad position he changes that after a week 129 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 2: or two as well, because certainly there would be tremendous 130 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 2: hostility within his own party and with an American society 131 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 2: to conceding Taiwan to Beijing. So Trump will treat this 132 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:41,559 Speaker 2: as an ongoing negotiation and an ongoing calculation. He will 133 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 2: be sniffing the wind and looking at what's politically viable. 134 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 2: He's weaker now than he was six months ago. His 135 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 2: magabase is starting to fracture a little bit. The Republicans 136 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 2: were savaged in recent off year elections. Now that is 137 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 2: a real witch's brew, and we just don't know what 138 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 2: it's going to issue in. What he doesn't do is 139 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 2: provide a very stable system of deterrence. The best way 140 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 2: to keep the peace in Taiwan is to convince the 141 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:13,679 Speaker 2: Chinese that the cost of action would be prohibitive. He 142 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 2: doesn't do that, But the Chinaes have to take into 143 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,319 Speaker 2: account the fact that America might react, even though Trump 144 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 2: gives every indication that they won't. Nonetheless, you know, anything 145 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 2: is possible with Trump, and the Chinese have to take 146 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 2: that into account, as does everyone else. 147 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: President g used the call to say something which is 148 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: becoming familiar from China, which is reminding the US that 149 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: China and America forought side by side against fascism and 150 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: militarism during World War Two. Presumably that's code for Japan. 151 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: And of course Japan's new Prime Minister has said some 152 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:57,079 Speaker 1: very strong things about China's potential invasion of Taiwan that 153 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: if that happens, Japan would consider itself obliged to have 154 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: a military response. Is that part of the reason do 155 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: you think greg for President she inviting President Trump for 156 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: a state visit? Is this all about keeping Japan at bay? 157 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 2: Well, China is very hostile to Japan. The mutual antipathy 158 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 2: between China and Japan is absolutely visceral, and it extends 159 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 2: far beyond the two governments. So these two nations really 160 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 2: detest each other and they have a long history of 161 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 2: military conflict. But of course the Chinese Communist Party didn't 162 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 2: do much fighting alongside the Americans against imperial Japan. It 163 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 2: was the Kuomintang, the people who went and set up Taiwan. 164 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 2: They did all the fighting against Japan. The Communist Party 165 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 2: largely sat in the sidelines, and when the Kuomintang was 166 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 2: weakened by their efforts of fighting Japan, they then came 167 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 2: in and drove the Kuomintang out and won the Chinese 168 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 2: Civil War. So this piece of history is kind of 169 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 2: bizarre for China to use that. And since World War Two, 170 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 2: Japan has been an exemplary international citizen and an exemplary 171 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 2: ally of the United States. Now, Japan would only ever 172 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 2: take military action over Taiwan in alliance with the United States. 173 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 2: So what the Japanese Prime Minister was doing, she was 174 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 2: trying to bolster American to terrence by letting the Chinese 175 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:28,319 Speaker 2: know that not only could they face the Americans if 176 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,559 Speaker 2: they tried to invade Taiwan, but they could probably face 177 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 2: America's allies too. Japan in particular, but also potentially South 178 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 2: Korea and Australia and even the Philippines. Now that's an 179 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 2: important strategic move that bolsters de terrence. But if America 180 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 2: itself has lost interest in de terance, of course, Japan 181 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 2: can't de China on its own, neither and Australia. But 182 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 2: the reference to World War II history, you could imagine Trump, 183 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 2: in one of his fits of historical revisionism, deciding that 184 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,079 Speaker 2: really Japan is the villain and China is the friend, 185 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 2: just as he's sort of decided that Ukraine is the villain. 186 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 2: You know, so Russia invades Ukraine without any provocation or 187 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 2: justification whatsoever, slaughters hundreds of thousands of people and Annex's territory, 188 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 2: and Trump blames Ukraine for starting the war. So the 189 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 2: bizarre sort of historical excursion which Beijing is offering here, 190 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 2: you know, we fought together against the invasion of other 191 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 2: countries by imperial Japan. Therefore you should support our invasion 192 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 2: of another country. It's the sort of crackpot formulation which 193 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 2: Trump could possibly find useful. But on the other hand, 194 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 2: it defies history. Really, and the people who set up 195 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 2: tagwe were much better allies of the United States than 196 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 2: the Chinese communists ever were. But you can see what 197 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 2: she is doing. You can see that that might provide 198 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 2: Trump with one of his crazy pretexts for saying, really, 199 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 2: our ally is the villain here, not our enemy coming up? 200 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:09,119 Speaker 1: So what do reciprocal state visits for these two superstar 201 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: show ponies look like? Both these guys love a bit 202 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,199 Speaker 1: of pomp and circumstance and a display of military hardware. 203 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,959 Speaker 1: They'll be swapping state visits in twenty twenty six. Does 204 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 1: that concern you, Greg? Is it a bad look in 205 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: this delicate time for President Trump to be in Beijing 206 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: watching a parade of people go stepping up and down 207 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: and vice versa. 208 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 2: Look, it's not a bad thing to host the China 209 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 2: as president, So people who wanted to tour China are not 210 00:13:55,240 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 2: looking for an endlessly tense one minute to midnight sort 211 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 2: of atmosphere. But the thing is, you want to have 212 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 2: a dialogue with China, which is respectful. Nobody wants to 213 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 2: bring President She to Washington and then beerate him and 214 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 2: humiliate him and everything. An America never does that. Well, 215 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 2: Trump does that sometimes, but America generally doesn't do that. 216 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 2: But at the same time, you've got to keep a 217 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 2: sense of strategic purpose about such a dialogue. Previous presidents 218 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 2: have done this fine. You know, George W. Bush a 219 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 2: host of China's visitors. There was no doubt that George W. 220 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 2: Bush remained very formidable strategically. You know, he didn't give 221 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 2: away the shop for the sake of a visit. But 222 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 2: with Trump, you just don't know. I mean, he is 223 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 2: so besotted by big, powerful leaders. And of course one 224 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 2: of the very ugly things about the Trump presidency is 225 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 2: the number of nations with which he is doing private 226 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 2: business on his own behind for on behalf of his 227 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 2: media empire, so to speak. And the Chinese and the 228 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 2: Russians I would think are both likely to be offering 229 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 2: him great deals. You know, Putin says we can do 230 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 2: great business together. And Trump's appalling peace plan involved America 231 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 2: taking profits from Ukraine's recovery. I mean, it's almost too 232 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 2: grotesque to think about, really, And who knows what private 233 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 2: Trump interests that play there. I mean, in previous negotiations, 234 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 2: Arab nations have invested in the Trump family, bitcoin products 235 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 2: and so forth. Although Trump says he's at arm length 236 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 2: from his family's business, now that does seem to be 237 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 2: part of how you deal with Trump. That doesn't guarantee 238 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 2: you get what you want, but that's part of the equation. 239 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 2: And the Chinese and the Russians they are past masters 240 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 2: at buying people off with that kind of consideration. So 241 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 2: that's pretty worrying as well. I mean, the lack of 242 00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 2: transparency with which everything is conducted under Trump, it gives 243 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 2: rise to this kind of concern. So there's everything to 244 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 2: be worried about in this romance between Trump and Chi Jinping. 245 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 2: But having said all that, it's basically a sensible thing 246 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 2: for the president of China and the President of the 247 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 2: United States to talk. One of the problems with Trump 248 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 2: is that he's either spitting better at you or he's 249 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 2: all over you like a rash, like with the mayor 250 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 2: of New York, the new mayor of New York. Before 251 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 2: he was elected, he was a deranged communist. Now he's 252 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 2: a very impressive man who's going to do a great 253 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 2: job in New York. Well, it's no bad thing for 254 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 2: the president to have a civil relationship with the Mayor 255 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 2: of New York. But what value, then, can you place 256 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 2: on Trump's words. I've always been confused by Trump loyalists 257 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 2: by their ability to just jump on a tram going 258 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 2: in one direction, jump off that, and then jump off 259 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 2: a tram going in the opposite direction without missing a breath. 260 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 2: You know, it's extraordinary. You've got to admire it in 261 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 2: a way. 262 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: Well, we know they all love winners. Great Sheridan, thank 263 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: you very much, don't you. Claire Greek Sheridan is The 264 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,719 Speaker 1: Australian's Foreign editor. You can read all his analysis, plus 265 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,879 Speaker 1: our reporting from around the world, right now at the 266 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 1: Australian dot com dot au