1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 1: The two nuns. I spoke to one of whom says 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: she saw the young woman in the phone box. The 3 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 1: other says she saw three men around the phone box. 4 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:09,960 Speaker 2: Is there any blood? 5 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: There's blood on a towel, but not a lot of blood. 6 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: But something clearly was wrong. 7 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 2: Post war Australia was a very good because there were 8 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 2: cars and you could drive from A to B as 9 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 2: fast as you can now. Yes, really, and yet no cameras, 10 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 2: no surveillance, no telephone troubles. You can get away with murder, 11 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 2: and many people did. I'm Andrew Rules's Life in Crimes. 12 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 2: We welcome back today Helen Thomas, who's been here before, 13 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,279 Speaker 2: because Helen Thomas has written a book and another updated 14 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 2: book on the Easy streetcase and along the way she 15 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 2: has spent a lot of time researching and writing about, 16 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 2: and thinking about and now podcasting about the Allied and 17 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 2: Linked case. The disappearance of the Californian girl Julie Garcius 18 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:04,679 Speaker 2: Salade eighteen months before the Easy Street murders, Easy Street, Collingwood, 19 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:09,119 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy seven. I think January was it, and the 20 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 2: Julie Garcias sleigh disappearance was from an apartment in North 21 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 2: Melbourne eighteen months earlier. I'm going to say the winter 22 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 2: of nineteen seventy five approximately. If you wanted to know 23 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 2: more about this, and you haven't caught up with it before, 24 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 2: we did an episode a long time ago called The 25 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 2: Californian Girl. Talon Thomas, you are probably the expert on 26 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 2: this case at this point because you have spent serious 27 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 2: time doing proper investigation finding people. You're a veteran reporter. 28 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 2: You've spent decades reporting since we worked together at the 29 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 2: Age decades ago, and you've used a lot of that 30 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 2: street wisdom and know how, sort of that blend of 31 00:01:55,520 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 2: pushiness and charm to get through the door and talk 32 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 2: to people who actually have never spoken publicly before. And 33 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 2: I was absolutely riveted last night when I listened to 34 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:13,799 Speaker 2: one of the episodes of your new podcast, Julie's Gone, 35 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 2: and I heard you unraveling the simple but devastating story 36 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 2: of the Ukrainian nuns who, as young nuns in North 37 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 2: Melbourne saw certain events unfolding on the street. I'm going 38 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 2: to take you to that scene. Who were the nuns 39 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:33,919 Speaker 2: and what did they see? 40 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 1: Well, Andrew, they were women in their thirties early thirties 41 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: at that time, and they were living in a convent 42 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: which was a big, double story, double fronted terrace in 43 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: Canning Street, North Melbourne, directly opposite the cathedral, the Ukrainian 44 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,799 Speaker 1: Catholic Cathedral, which just sits at the top of Canning 45 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: Street there, and two of them saw a young woman 46 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: being dragged out of the phone box which was right 47 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: directly in front of that convent, so sitting on the 48 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: side of the cathedral, this young woman was in the 49 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 1: phone box. At one point three men were standing around her. 50 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: They dragged her out of the phone box and threw 51 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: her into the back seat of a car and sped 52 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: down Canning Street towards Flemington. So in that episode you 53 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: listen to one of the nuns sisters and Novia is 54 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: still living in North Melbourne at the convent at the cathedral, 55 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: and she was able to describe in quite compelling detail 56 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: what she remembers, very vividly. 57 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 2: We're going to flash back from that to sketch it 58 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 2: in for our listeners. The disappearance of Julie garcias Sleigh happened. 59 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 2: Give us a date. 60 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: First of July nineteen seventy five. 61 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 2: Right, and she was living with her sister older sister 62 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 2: in this apartment or flat in Canning Street. Julie had 63 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 2: just arrived not many months before from California, and her 64 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 2: older sister I think, had been here a bit longer. 65 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 2: Julie had got a job at the Australian and Truth 66 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 2: Officers Southbound Press I think it was called, and she 67 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 2: worked in the library there. She was s a clerical 68 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 2: job in the library. 69 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: She was a temp librarian, temp librrian. 70 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 2: And as such, as a temp librarian, she'd come into 71 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 2: sort of daily contact or weekly contact whatever with people 72 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 2: who worked there, including some of the reporters, including a 73 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 2: particular Truth reporter called John Grant, and she got to 74 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,919 Speaker 2: know him slightly. And she also got to know a 75 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 2: couple of guys that John Grant had brought into the 76 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 2: building to look through the newspaper records, the library records, 77 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 2: the old scrap books yeah, used to keep up. 78 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 1: We're not sure exactly how they ended up in the library, 79 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: but you're right. On the afternoon of the day she 80 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: disappeared on July, the first three men came to visit 81 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,119 Speaker 1: her in the library. In the library, including John Grant, 82 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: the reporter, John Grant, and two others, Yeah, two others. 83 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 2: No real doubt that those two others. 84 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: Were John Power John Power a Power. 85 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 2: A notorious criminal then and even. 86 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: More so later, and Reese Tommy Collins. 87 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 2: Reese Tommy Collins, who not as notorious a criminal, but 88 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 2: a professional prize fighter who rubbed shoulders with notorious figures 89 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 2: in the underworld. He was like many prize fighters of 90 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 2: that era. He was no shrinking violet and not lily 91 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 2: white either probably, but a bit of a con man, 92 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 2: pretty good looking, blog da da da, you know, all 93 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 2: of those things. 94 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 1: And they turned up in the library and were talking 95 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: to Julie about soul food restaurants because apparently Tommy was 96 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: interested in the Opening One in Opening One, And this 97 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: was heard by some of the other women in the 98 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: library who were working with Julie, one of whom I 99 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: spoke to in the podcast. And so they were there 100 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: for about ten fifteen minutes, and at the end of 101 00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: that conversation about soul food, they sort of some how 102 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 1: invited themselves around to her apartment later on that night, 103 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:08,359 Speaker 1: and after they left, a couple of the girls you 104 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: know her colleagues, said, oh, do you reckon three blokes 105 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: coming around. No, it'll be fine, said Julie and one of. 106 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 2: Her Californian confidence Yeah or night. 107 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 1: You know what a naive young nineteen year old ten 108 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 1: day shiver twentieth birthday, I guess, you know, maybe she 109 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: thought her sister was going to be home. She didn't 110 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 1: seem worried by it, and when they were trying to 111 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 1: talk to her about it, one of her colleagues said 112 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: she just wasn't concerned. So they got back to work, 113 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,679 Speaker 1: and that night the three men turned up at her apartment. 114 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 2: Let's not put too much spin on it, but one 115 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 2: was a non criminal and a violent one. One, as 116 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 2: I say, a prize fighter who probably had a bit 117 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 2: of criminal history of some sort, and the other one 118 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 2: was died in the will. Crime writer for Truth magazine, 119 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 2: which was a scandal sheet and its crime home reporters 120 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 2: were pretty hard cases, and John Wentz not the only one. 121 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 2: There was Jack Darmdy and others. They are pretty hard 122 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 2: lot and they ran with crooks and that's how they 123 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 2: got stories. So the other women in the library, their 124 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 2: judgment wasn't that far astray really, to put it mildly. 125 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: But Julie wasn't concerned. 126 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 2: She wasn't concerned. So the net result is those three 127 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 2: men end up at her apartment that night. What happened then? 128 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: It's hard to know exactly what happened then, but from 129 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: their accounts, from the three accounts of the men gave, 130 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: you know, initially in nineteen twell two of them gave in. 131 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 2: Nineteen seventy, alleged this is what happened. That's right. 132 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: They went round pizzoon beer and they sat around talking 133 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: for however long, an hour or so, an hour and 134 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: a half. She then decided to make a phone call 135 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: because apparently her sister had asked her to make a 136 00:07:55,520 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: phone call, so she, according to their accounts, left apartment 137 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: to make that phone. 138 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 2: Call at a public telephone box. 139 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: Well, they see exactly, because there was no phone in 140 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: the house. 141 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 2: No, of course, even though some people had private telephones 142 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 2: in that era, many didn't. And if you had a 143 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 2: rented flat, you'd go outside the telephone. 144 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:17,239 Speaker 1: That's right, okay, And so this brings us to where 145 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: the nuns say they saw, Well, the two nuns I 146 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: spoke to, one of whom says she saw a young 147 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: woman in the phone box. The other says she saw 148 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: three men around the phone box. 149 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 2: It's thread that needle. What leads you to the nuns, 150 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 2: and what makes us think the nuns can remember over 151 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 2: forty nine years whatnot they saw a young woman being 152 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:37,839 Speaker 2: pulled from a phone box? 153 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:42,439 Speaker 1: Well, Julie's mother. When I found Julie's mum in California, 154 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: yeh forty eight years later, she told me many things. 155 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: But one of the things she mentioned was that the 156 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: girls had said, her daughters had said that there was 157 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: a Russian woman living on the land opposite their door. 158 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: Her apartment was opposite their apartment, on the same landing, 159 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: and she was a really light sleeper. So Ruth Garcis 160 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: lay her mum. Her question was why didn't they speak 161 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: to her? And why didn't she hear anything? Why didn't 162 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: she see anything? If she's sat a light sleeper, what 163 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:14,319 Speaker 1: was happening? So I thought Russian? Maybe she has some 164 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: connection to the Ukrainian Cathedral. Who was she? 165 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 2: Really? 166 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: I have to start somewhere. 167 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:21,439 Speaker 2: This Ukrainian Cathedral is a matter. 168 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: Of it's two minutes away, one minute away, walk away. 169 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: So I contacted the cathedral and initially they didn't get 170 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: back to then they did, and I was incredibly lucky, 171 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: as you can be as a journalist. I started dealing 172 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: with a woman, an administrator there. She was the executive 173 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 1: assistant to the bishop at the time. She initially said 174 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: to me, look, no, all the priests have died, all 175 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: the clergy have died, so I can't help you. But 176 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: it was one of those, I guess, one of those 177 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: queries that were so unusual that she kept thinking about it. 178 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: And I think she was going to the post office 179 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 1: two days later and she thought, hang on, the priests 180 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: have all died, but there are still a couple of 181 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 1: the nuns who were then still here, still with us. 182 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: So she asked the nun sisters and Novia, and that's 183 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,439 Speaker 1: where we came to the story. So sisters and Avia 184 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: is the one who saw you at the top. 185 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 2: She was in her thirties then, so she's ninety. She's ninety. 186 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 2: And another one too. 187 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: Another one, the mother Superior who's now living in Sydney. 188 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 1: She didn't see anyone in the phone box. She walked 189 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: past with another nun. She walked past three men standing 190 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: around the phone box as she was leading the cathedral 191 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: because she was doing late work in the cathedral. How 192 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: crossed the road? 193 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 2: How are we able to date it? How well? 194 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: The assistant to the bishop got really interested in actually 195 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: hating this, working out who was there at the time, 196 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: and how is it possible that this is the same incident, 197 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 1: And she worked out that it could in fact be 198 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: true because it was the day the bishop at the 199 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: time left Australia and went on. 200 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 2: Okay, so said, he's a fact that can't be negated. 201 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 2: The bishop left on a given day and on the 202 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 2: same day, Julie Garcius Slee goes missing that night, and 203 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 2: we know that date, they can The tricky bit here, 204 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 2: that triangulation, if you like, is that their memory of 205 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 2: the bishop just left so we can't talk to him. 206 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 2: Is that them? 207 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: That's the messing was when the next after the extra fact? 208 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: That's right, So when they saw this happening, the two 209 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 1: nuns upstairs saw it happening. The two nuns downstairs heard 210 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:27,439 Speaker 1: this young girl calling for help and a bit of 211 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 1: a commotion on the street. 212 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 2: And the others saw three men standing. 213 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: Matter of fact, that's right, two nuns walking across the road. 214 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: So the three you've got two different perspectives, but all 215 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: of them heard screaming, and two of them upstairs had 216 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: a very good view onto the street of this young 217 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: girl being dragged. 218 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 2: And read the date. There's no doubt that happened. That happened, 219 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:53,559 Speaker 2: but read the date. Subsequently, they recall clearly that they 220 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 2: would like to have talked to the bishop about it, 221 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 2: because he's just got on flight for Europe, that's right, 222 00:11:59,160 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 2: and so they can't. 223 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 1: And this is really important. 224 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 2: And this is a bit that dates it. 225 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: That's right. And this is really crucial because without the 226 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,439 Speaker 1: bishop there, I mean, not surprisingly, they didn't want to 227 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: go out into the street that night, to go across 228 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: to the cathedral to raise the alarm with the priests, 229 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:16,719 Speaker 1: because they both say, but the two nuns that I 230 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: speak to, sisters is a Novia and sister and Nicia, 231 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 1: who is the mother superior. Both of them say they 232 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: were scared. So they just battened down the hatches in 233 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: a sense. The next morning they went across the road 234 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: talk to the priests, one or two of whom, from 235 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: what I understand, also heard something. I'm not sure that 236 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: they saw anything, but they certainly heard some sort of commotion. 237 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 1: What they say is be very careful from now on. 238 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 2: The priests just said they didn't say lettering the police. No, 239 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 2: of course, these are Ukrainian migrants, yes, there, commander being 240 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 2: Leish's Argentinian margin Argentinian, Argentinian, all of them. O. 241 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 1: Well, the nuns were argent for Argentine. So they're speaking 242 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 1: what they're speaking Ukrainian, Ukrainian and Argentinian, I guess, but Ukrainate. 243 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: So English is their second or third language, you know. 244 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: And politically, let's remember what's happening at the time in 245 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: the seventies in Argentina. It's a tumultuous political scenario. 246 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 2: I've come from a scary place where the people who 247 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 2: pull you out of phone boxes may well be the. 248 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:17,959 Speaker 1: Police, that's right, And so their first instance is to 249 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,559 Speaker 1: talk to the priests. The priests say be careful, but 250 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: the priests don't say, let's go to the police. And 251 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: then new factor in the fact. 252 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 2: That no phones, no phone, no television, so they're not 253 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 2: seeing the news that they're not aware of Julie Garcius, 254 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 2: they're not reading English language newspapers, so they don't really 255 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 2: know anything about Julie Garcius slay their own neighbor, basically disappearing. 256 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: And they didn't recognize her as their own neighbor. And 257 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: so that series of facts that we know to be true. 258 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: What we also know is that when Julie does go 259 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 1: missing and her sister, who had been staying away that night, 260 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 1: she'd gone to visit friends and it stayed over, I 261 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: think in Kenzi comes back early in the afternoon, realizes 262 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,199 Speaker 1: that there's a bit of disarray, shall we say, in 263 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: the apartment. 264 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:08,559 Speaker 2: We'll describe it. What do you do? 265 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,959 Speaker 1: Well, there's some empty beer bottles, some clothing that have 266 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: been cut up, cut up a night he had been 267 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: sort of slit at the top. There are other clothes 268 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: that were folded. 269 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 2: Is there any blood? 270 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: There's blood on a towel, but not a lot of blood. 271 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: But something clearly was wrong. 272 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 2: Cut up clothing. That's strange, isn't it? 273 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: So Gail, her sister, Gail Garcissile, starts ringing people who 274 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: might know, and rings the office at Truth and speaks 275 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: to Jules. Speaks to Jules Satcher, who is the colleague 276 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: that we were mentioning before, and says, is Juliet. 277 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 2: Work and she says no, And colleague in the library. 278 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: In the library, sorry, yep, that's southdown present and you've 279 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 1: found her. Yep, found her. And she remembers very clearly 280 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: Gail calling a couple of times, and each time, getting 281 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: more and more worried and more and more scared about 282 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: what might be going on. 283 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 2: All right, okay, so that sort of nails down there, 284 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 2: isn't it. It's just Fate's a terrible thing. Had you 285 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 2: and another reporter from the age, let's say, been living 286 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 2: in that flat and looked out the window and seen that, 287 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 2: you would have reported it. You would have been good witnesses. 288 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 2: Fluent in English, you would have reported to the police. 289 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 2: And this whole case might have been different from the start. 290 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 2: But it was Argentinian Ukrainian nuns who had no idea 291 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 2: about anything, and we're scared and we're wire not to 292 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 2: do anything except be careful. That's right, And it could 293 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 2: hardly have been worse witnesses in that sense. 294 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: In that sense, but they could have been terrific witnesses 295 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: had the whole scenario had been different and had their 296 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: English been different. But we have to write it was 297 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: too No, it wasn't Julie Goes missing. But over the 298 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: next couple of days the police don't do much. 299 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 2: What's your understanding of what the police did and didn't do? 300 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 2: And how do you know it? How do you know? 301 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: Well, we know that the police eventually went to the 302 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: apartment and did a very good job forensically at some point, 303 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: at some point, but not straight away. But what we 304 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: also know, and I've spoken, there are still a number 305 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: of neighbors who remember no police presence at all. They 306 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: remember hearing some vague story a couple of days later, 307 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: probably a week later, because it was really from what 308 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: I can see, it was about a week before the 309 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: story was reported in the papers. 310 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 2: It was a time leg. 311 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: There was a time lag and for a long for 312 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 1: an truth. 313 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 2: Certainly weren't breaking it. 314 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: And for a number of days I think the police 315 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: and understandably just thought, oh, look she's on the tear whatever. 316 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: They thought she'll come back. I think there was a 317 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: view that she might have even gone home to the 318 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: you know, to California, to the States, but. 319 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 2: The family passenger lists. How ridiculous is that she's not 320 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 2: on a passenger list. She hasn't gone under the States. 321 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 2: I think she's going to hit Chike. 322 00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: Well, days go by, and we have to remember again, 323 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: no missing person's unit, no concept really of missing people. 324 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 2: So it was a good time to get away with murder. 325 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 1: Uh huh. 326 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 2: The post war Australia was a very good because there 327 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 2: were cars, you know, you could drive from me to 328 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 2: be fast as fast as you can now really, and 329 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:21,239 Speaker 2: yet no cameras, no surveillance, no telephone troubles. You can 330 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 2: get away with murder, and many people did. 331 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 1: So, you know, there were probably other people who might 332 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: have heard or seen things on the night, but they 333 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: weren't spoken to. And when the police finally did start investigating, 334 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 1: when her mum came out about a week later, it 335 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: sort of coincides. That's when the reporting starts. That's when 336 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 1: the mainstream media start getting interested in this young American teenager, 337 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: seemed to be twenty year old, was just gone. You know, 338 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 1: Julie's gone. 339 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 2: Julie's gone. It's a riveting mystery. 340 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: And her mother believes that right from the start. They 341 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: were a bit bamboozled by it. But the saddest is 342 00:17:55,920 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: apart from Julie vanishing, is that John Power, who, as 343 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: you say it was well known to the police, was 344 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: under surveillance by police at the time, was under surveillance 345 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: by the armed robbery squad. 346 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 2: That's lucky because you know, they grabbed him soight away, but. 347 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: They lost him for three days, including that day. 348 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 2: Where'd you find that out it was. 349 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: Greater a permission and got access to the part of 350 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: the police file that went to the coroner. 351 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 2: This is magnificent stuff. This is a very good subject 352 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 2: for your excellent new podcast, Julie's Gone, which we are 353 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 2: riding on the coattails off right here. That is a 354 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 2: very significant thing that the police were watching him for 355 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 2: whatever reason, to do with robberies, probably, and they lose 356 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 2: him for three days because he probably knew he's under surveillance, 357 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 2: but he also knew how to evade it. What they 358 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 2: call a good crook, meaning he's a very bad man 359 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 2: who was a very good crook. He knew how to 360 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 2: dodge and duck and weave. That is very interesting. What 361 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 2: would push him to evade police surveillance or do tricky 362 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 2: things in the middle of the night, Well, getting rid 363 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 2: of a body, you would think. 364 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: But it's not clear what happened even now, fifty years 365 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: fifty later. 366 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 2: We've been through this before, but it's worth going through 367 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,640 Speaker 2: the basics. That her mother, the missing girl's mother, missus Garcius, 368 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 2: comes across from California to Victoria. 369 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 1: She comes across within a week, she's there within certainly 370 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: she's there with I think she's here by the eighth 371 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 1: of July, and. 372 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 2: She's fairly up and about. She was pretty active in 373 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 2: trying to find things out. At some point later on 374 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 2: she got into pantry, did she not and spoke to Power. 375 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: That was a couple of years later, So she stayed. 376 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:43,120 Speaker 1: I think she stayed in Melbourne initially for a couple 377 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 1: of weeks and then went took her daughter Gail home, 378 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 1: because you can imagine how upset and distraught gar was. 379 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: And then in nineteen seventies seven, yeah, she did. Gail 380 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: particularly got it in her mind that Julie was still alive. 381 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 1: She rang the hotel that Julie had worked at before 382 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 1: she took the job at the Southdown Press and asked 383 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,160 Speaker 1: to speak to her, and somebody on the who answered 384 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 1: the phone said, yeah, hang on, I'll go get it. 385 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 1: So put the phone down and it went away, and eventually, 386 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 1: of course the line went dead. But she was convinced 387 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 1: thinking of wanting to that her sister had somehows. 388 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 2: Her problem is she feels massive guilt because she wasn't 389 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:24,919 Speaker 2: there that night and she probably should. 390 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: Have right well, whether she should have been, I mean, 391 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 1: I don't know whether Julie told her she was bringing. 392 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: This is what we can't establish. But she goes to 393 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 1: her mum and says, look, we really have to go home. 394 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: Julie is still there. 395 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 2: I'm not saying she should have been, but she would 396 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 2: undoubtedly feel she would undo given what happened. 397 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: So anyway, they come back again in nineteen seventy seven, 398 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: but Gail is so again distraught and upset. She doesn't 399 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 1: stay long. But in that particular visit. Then that's the 400 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 1: second and the final time they come to Australia. You 401 00:20:55,520 --> 00:21:01,360 Speaker 1: can understand why Ruth Garcislai, Julie's mum go into Pentridge 402 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: and speaks to John Power and basically says to him, look, John, 403 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: you're the father of three daughters. I'm the mother of 404 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: three daughters. Please tell me where is my daughter? And 405 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 1: he puts his hand up to one ear and goes 406 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: under his throat like in a slitting motion, and then 407 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: points to the ceiling and says, go higher. And I 408 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: remember this. Your Ruth says, go higher, John, what do 409 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 1: you mean you know? Give me a clue. What are 410 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: you saying? And he does it again, go higher, Go higher. 411 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: So for the next however, many forty five forty six 412 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: years she lives with that, not knowing what he means, 413 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 1: and we still don't know what he meant. 414 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 2: Have you got any guests? No? 415 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: When she told me, I did think, I wonder whether 416 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: it relates in any way to the Beach Inquiry, because 417 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 1: later that year, in nineteen seventy five, he did give 418 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: evidence to the Beach Inquiry. I mean, the obvious inference 419 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: is Julie's dead. 420 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe these are two separate, two separate messages. One 421 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 2: is she's dead, the second is full stop, and the 422 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 2: second one is go hight. Does that mean she's been 423 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 2: taken up into the hills to get rid of her 424 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 2: like King Lake? You know, I don't know. I mean 425 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 2: that they're not necessarily all part of one's sentence, one 426 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:24,920 Speaker 2: mind sentenced. 427 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: Or could you ask someone Hi, I don't know. I 428 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 1: don't know. I don't pretend to know. And it's a 429 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: particularly cruel things I think to have said to her. 430 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 1: If he was trying to give her a message, it 431 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 1: was no good. It's lost to her and it's lost 432 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: to us now you know, so many decades later, but 433 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 1: it is. 434 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 2: John Joseph Power. You can tell from his name. He 435 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,880 Speaker 2: was one of that old so many crooks in those days, 436 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 2: that sort of Irish Australian pedigree. They've been brought up 437 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 2: around the inner suburbs under the some of the Catholic Church, 438 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 2: or if not the farm, at least part of it. 439 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,400 Speaker 2: And we forget easily that in those days that people 440 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 2: referred to God and Heaven and Hell routinely. It was 441 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 2: part of the conversation, it was part of their mental furniture. 442 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 2: And maybe he meant she's in heaven, maybe because that's 443 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 2: not something people would say now, but it was certainly 444 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 2: something people used to say. Then. Yeap, where's Grandpa always 445 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 2: in heaven and day he's looking down on us? Or 446 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 2: something that sort of died in a generation, but it 447 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 2: hadn't died in the seventies, because we're talking about power 448 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 2: would have been born in the thirties, thirties or forties, 449 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 2: so his childhood was either depression times or wartime. Now 450 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 2: it's a long time ago now, a different era and 451 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 2: a different frame of reference, a different idiom. Maybe that's 452 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 2: what he means, she's dead and in. 453 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 1: Heaven, but she never unraveled it. And it's hard, you know, 454 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: we can no. 455 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,160 Speaker 2: We can guess all we like, we can have a guess, 456 00:23:58,200 --> 00:23:59,919 Speaker 2: but it was a. 457 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: Particularly cruel is the word that comes to Marke to 458 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: say to a mother, But what a mum? Imagine doing that? 459 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,159 Speaker 1: Imagine going into Penridge on your own to see a 460 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: guy like John Power, who the police have said to her. 461 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,159 Speaker 1: I think in her first visit had made it very 462 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: clear that he was a guy they didn't want to 463 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: tangle with. I think one of the detectives at the 464 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: time said he's not the sort of person you want 465 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: to meet in a dark lane at night, and that 466 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 1: also said to her that he had been stalking her daughter. 467 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 1: And when she told me that story when we did 468 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: the original interview, stalking stalking was the word she used. 469 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 1: She said, I don't know how they knew that, and 470 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 1: I didn't know, but now we do know because he 471 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 1: was under surveillance, so they had obviously some idea of 472 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:45,360 Speaker 1: what he'd been doing. 473 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 2: And he climpsed if he's been going into the truth 474 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 2: with Tommy Collins to look at the files that do 475 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 2: with the leaching query whatever, blah blah blah. He spotted 476 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 2: her and there she is some kissed, some panned, mini 477 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 2: skirted girl from Californi. And he's a reptile. He's a 478 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,679 Speaker 2: Devietnam And Tommy, a very violent. 479 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: Collins, was the man who took Julie out the night 480 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: before she went missing to see I think he wanted 481 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: to show her a club that he was interested in buying, 482 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,439 Speaker 1: and then dropped her at home later that night. 483 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 2: So when you look at it, given the difference in ages, 484 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 2: and that strikes me as a false front. I mean, 485 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 2: why show a teenage girl a club are you interested 486 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 2: in buying? Why I ask her about Salford? What the 487 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 2: hell would she know really about setting up a restaurant. 488 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 2: She's a girl, she's a kid from just out of 489 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:36,160 Speaker 2: high school for goodness sake. Clearly they're sharks circling a lamb. 490 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 2: And I don't know how shark circle lambs. Yes, and 491 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 2: I don't know Poppy Wolf's. 492 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: How that particular wolf was introduced to Julie in the 493 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: first instance. I don't know how Tommy Collins came to 494 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: ask her out. 495 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 2: Well, they see that they are going into the truth 496 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:57,880 Speaker 2: Southbound Press Library and there she is. And who took 497 00:25:57,920 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 2: him in there? John Grant? Not that that makes it, 498 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 2: John Green, it's fault. 499 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,919 Speaker 1: Well, we don't know that either, And I could never 500 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: establish it. 501 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 2: It's not his fault, but I just. 502 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: Couldn't establish that initial link to Tommy. How did she 503 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: meet Tommy in the first instance, I don't know, but 504 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: that's what happened, and the three men ended up in 505 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,360 Speaker 1: that apartment and all these things followed, and she's never 506 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,440 Speaker 1: been seen since, and nor has a body ever been recovered. 507 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 2: It is a truly shocking story and a tantalizing mystery, 508 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 2: which of course we've always linked up with Easy Street, 509 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 2: which is something we can't say a lot about because 510 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 2: of the fact that a man who was a young 511 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 2: man in nineteen seventy seven has been arrested in Rome 512 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 2: and has been brought back to Australia and is currently 513 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 2: in custody pending trial, So we can't say a lot 514 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 2: about it. But of course the link that the police 515 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 2: were examined at the time was, and we've been through 516 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 2: this so many times, was that John Grant, who was 517 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 2: the truth Crime reporter the Julie Garcia slay one of 518 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 2: the three at the apartment. He also, by chance was 519 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 2: next door to the Easy Street house on the night 520 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 2: that the two suits were murdered in nineteen seventy seven. 521 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 2: It would appear to be, and the police concluded this 522 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 2: would appear to be just a massive coincidence, which it happens. 523 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 1: It does happen, and we have to say here, John 524 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: Grant has absolutely been cleared through DNA testing of the 525 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:35,399 Speaker 1: Easy Street Terrible brutal double and he's No one has 526 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,160 Speaker 1: ever been charged for Julie's disappearance and indeed her murder, 527 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: because in twenty eighteen, the the Victorian Coroner decided she 528 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 1: had been murdered by personal persons unknown. There is a 529 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: somewhat positive thing that has eventuated. Julie's mum, Ruth Garcia Sila, 530 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one years ago, started a scholarship in her 531 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: name at a university not far from her home in California, 532 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: because Julie was a really gifted pianist, So this is 533 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: a scholarship for piano players basically. And the interesting thing 534 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: was she told them that it was for her daughter, 535 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,919 Speaker 1: but they didn't know why. So I spoke to the lecturer, 536 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: who's you know, with Ruth organizing the scholarship every year, 537 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 1: and until Ruth sort of asked her to speak to 538 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: me for the podcast, she didn't really understand what had 539 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 1: happened to Julie, so in a good way. Julie's name, 540 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: you know, still lives and as far as her mother's concerned, 541 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: her greatest fear was has always been that we'd all 542 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: just forgotten about it, the police and Victoria Police in Australia, 543 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 1: had just forgotten about her daughter, and that we'd never 544 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: really known about her daughter. But now, even as hard 545 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: as it was to talk about this again, this, you know, 546 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: decades and decades later, this gives her some i think, 547 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: reassuring that her daughter is going to be remembered. 548 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 2: How old is she now? 549 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 1: Ninety three? 550 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 2: She's still with us, yes, but in very very poor 551 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 2: poor health. Remarkable story of mother's love, probably hanging on 552 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 2: to in the hope that, you know, something breaks through well, 553 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 2: which reminds you of the Beaumonts, you know exactly, Nancy 554 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 2: Beaumont and her husband a bit separated, Jim Beaumont. They 555 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 2: lived two huge ages and it seemed to be that 556 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 2: they wanted to hang on and hang on and hang on, 557 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 2: hoping that you know, they'd find. 558 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: Out and something I mean, in a sense, it's hard 559 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: to think of anything much worse than not knowing where 560 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 1: a loved one is the worst not knowing what has 561 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: happened the worst and fearing the worst. And I mean 562 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 1: Ruth has said to me a number of times, all 563 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 1: she's ever really wanted to do is bring Julie home 564 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: and very Julie before she of course goes. Now I 565 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: think she, having heard the podcast, now, I think she 566 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: believes that might be too difficult because she's in poor health. 567 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 1: But she hopes that one day at least we'll find 568 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 1: out where Julie is has been put or buried, and 569 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: that maybe something can be done to bless that ground, 570 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: to mark that ground. 571 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 2: There's a faint chance. I don't know how, but there's 572 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 2: a faint chance. I don't see how anybody living could 573 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 2: know unless John Joseph Power told somebody who told somebody else, 574 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 2: which is highly unlostly, unless somebody sort of stumbles over 575 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 2: something somewhere. But if it's up to Bush in a 576 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 2: mindshaft or something, well that's probably not going to happen. 577 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: That's right. And in the meantime, late last year, there 578 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: was a park laid at Saint John's Luther and Chapel 579 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,959 Speaker 1: in Southgate here in Melbourne. In fact, Andrew just literally 580 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: two minutes across from your office, so if anyone does 581 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: want to pay respects to Julie to go, you could 582 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: go there. And it's a beautiful little chapel and a 583 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: little Japanese maple was also planned. I just saw it 584 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: this morning. Actually it's looking little winterry at the moment, 585 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: but there are little buds on it, so come spring 586 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: it'll look very pretty. 587 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 2: That's probably the right way to end our episode on 588 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 2: the disappearance of Julie Garcia Sala. It's based heavily on 589 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 2: your new podcast, Julie's Gone How Many episodes seven seven 590 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 2: and episode two I think is the one that produces 591 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 2: the nuns, but there are all the others which I'm 592 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 2: going to go home and listen to. Thank you, Andrew, 593 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 2: thanks for listening. Life and Crimes is a Sunday Herald 594 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 2: Sun production for True Crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton. 595 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 2: For my columns, features and more, go to Heroldsun dot 596 00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 2: com dot Au forward slash Andrew rule one word. For 597 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 2: advertising inquiries, go to news Podcasts sold at news dot 598 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 2: com dot au. That is all one word news podcasts sold. 599 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 2: And if you want further information about this episode, links 600 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 2: are in the description