Speaker 1: It looks like something else, so it looks like we're
Speaker 1: fighting about money, but in actual fact, what we're fighting
Speaker 1: about a lot of the time is we've lost our
Speaker 1: way with each other.
Speaker 2: So we just don't know how to connect.
Speaker 1: And I think as you go through marriage, the challenge
Speaker 1: is how do you stay connected by continually getting to
Speaker 1: know who your partner is as they continue to grow,
Speaker 1: change and evolve.
Speaker 3: Welcome to separate bathrooms. We would like to acknowledge the
Speaker 3: traditional custodians of the land on which we records podcast,
Speaker 3: the Gadigel people of the EU nation. We pay our
Speaker 3: respects to elders past and presence. Welcome to separate bathroom.
Speaker 3: Tim cam Dado, this is my wife Ali Dado, and
Speaker 3: we've got a great start to the year.
Speaker 4: We do, we do, We've We're excited to have this
Speaker 4: couple on. It's slightly unusual in a sense. These two
Speaker 4: they work together their relationship therapists, they're psychologists, they've built
Speaker 4: a business together. So that's going to be really interesting
Speaker 4: to talk to them about how they work together in
Speaker 4: that sense and where their work takes them, you know,
Speaker 4: do they take it home with them and is there
Speaker 4: of a conflict within their space of their work.
Speaker 3: Yes, and I'm actually looking forward to some I don't know,
Speaker 3: I want to say hacks, but I don't like that term.
Speaker 3: But you know, some advice and some tips on how
Speaker 3: to better navigate the relationship. Yeah. Absolutely, and I think
Speaker 3: this is a perfect way to begin. Twenty twenty three.
Speaker 4: Kerry and Adrian Lumbiu. They run a business called Motivating Marriages,
Speaker 4: and it exists to see couples not just survive their relationships,
Speaker 4: but to thrive in it and be all the more
Speaker 4: better for haven for having chosen love. Isn't that sweet?
Speaker 3: It's great of that. Let's bring them into the bathroom.
Speaker 3: Kerry an Adrian. Welcome Adrian and Kerrie to the bathroom.
Speaker 5: Thanks guys, look.
Speaker 3: At you You're a vision, you two. How are you.
Speaker 5: Well? Thank you?
Speaker 4: Are you are the both of you talking to us
Speaker 4: from your home or from your business home office home office?
Speaker 4: Very good. Obviously you two work together. This is what
Speaker 4: we're curious about and to hear all about the work
Speaker 4: that both of you actually do. But we whenever we
Speaker 4: get couples on, we always love to get their love
Speaker 4: story first, of course, because it's our favorite thing. So
Speaker 4: how did you two actually meet.
Speaker 6: Do you want me to go, Well, it depends which
Speaker 6: part of the story, So we want their truth.
Speaker 4: The truth.
Speaker 1: We actually officially met in prison, so that's how we met,
Speaker 1: and that's always a really great story to tell people
Speaker 1: who don't know that we're actually psychologists. It's nice to
Speaker 1: see their faces. Yeah.
Speaker 5: The real story, well that is the real The real
Speaker 5: story is that we actually well I saw Kerry three
Speaker 5: times actually, and one was when we were both at
Speaker 5: the same UNI, but we're in different courses. But we
Speaker 5: had I guess a crossover in one of the subjects there,
Speaker 5: and I saw her sort of sitting outside one of
Speaker 5: the electure holes. She grabbed my attention. You know, I
Speaker 5: don't think she saw me though, So that was the
Speaker 5: first thing. Then second, we met at the same job
Speaker 5: interview in one of the prisons. We're going for the
Speaker 5: same position in one of the prisons there, So we
Speaker 5: met in the do you want to tell the story?
Speaker 1: Yeah, we met in the interview process. And so I
Speaker 1: was sitting there preparing for my interview and this very
Speaker 1: polite gentleman comes up to offer me a glass of
Speaker 1: water while he was getting himself one, and I flatly
Speaker 1: refused because he was the competition.
Speaker 3: I'm getting that I thought it was nice, was something
Speaker 3: that was something diabolical in the water.
Speaker 5: And I can assure you there was not just good
Speaker 5: intentions there. So she refused. But anyway, so I ended
Speaker 5: up getting the job. Though. I'll just tell you.
Speaker 1: Guys that say, I just have to say that is
Speaker 1: no indication if it's a better psychologist, that too, no competition.
Speaker 5: But then officially, yeah, we met in one of the
Speaker 5: prisons that we both worked at, were colleagues, they're both
Speaker 5: psychologists in one of those Sydney prisons, and yeah, we
Speaker 5: just sort of met there and the rest is history,
Speaker 5: as they say.
Speaker 3: We met.
Speaker 1: Really, yeah, we worked close together, and probably one of
Speaker 1: the things that attracted us opposed to each other about
Speaker 1: each other was just how we both really loved justice,
Speaker 1: not just justice for the clients that we were working with,
Speaker 1: but the injustice of the system that we were working
Speaker 1: in was something that was really challenging for both of us,
Speaker 1: and our hearts and our minds met over that, really,
Speaker 1: and that's been something that has been just a bit
Speaker 1: of a solid rock throughout our life. We're pretty big
Speaker 1: justice seekers, and we like to do things right, and
Speaker 1: we like people to be honored and respected and valued,
Speaker 1: and when we see that not happening, that's something that
Speaker 1: we always come back to in a line on So
Speaker 1: it's nice to have that.
Speaker 4: That's a really powerful connection to have. Actually, Yes, when
Speaker 4: your values match on such a deep level like that,
Speaker 4: that's a that's a great connection to have. So, yeah,
Speaker 4: I can understand why you were both so attracted to
Speaker 4: each other from from that perspective alone, so not to
Speaker 4: as a very good looking So.
Speaker 3: So, als do you want to ask? Do you want
Speaker 3: to ask? So? I thought I thought you might have
Speaker 3: answered this question already. But so when you did see
Speaker 3: each other, was it love at first sight?
Speaker 5: I definitely noticed Carrie it's a uni because she had
Speaker 5: jet black hair, if you could believe that looking at
Speaker 5: it now, and jet black hair, and so I really
Speaker 5: caught my attention. I thought she looks very nice. But
Speaker 5: I didn't approach her or anything like that, but she
Speaker 5: definitely sort of stuck in my mind. And then when
Speaker 5: we met at the prison, the prior actual prison, Yeah,
Speaker 5: we like the stuff we were talking about before. It
Speaker 5: was very quick attraction because we found that we could
Speaker 5: just talk to each other, we could talk about meaningful
Speaker 5: things connect emotionally on certain topics that carry has just
Speaker 5: talked about. So it was quite easy, wasn't that.
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 5: It was yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Do you think that's an actual thing? Love at first sight?
Speaker 4: About asking you to relationship experts, Well.
Speaker 2: There's definitely components.
Speaker 1: I mean, science has shown us like the importance of
Speaker 1: the Limerens effect, so things like that chemical attraction lust
Speaker 1: is what people call it generally, and that's very real.
Speaker 1: So like we instinctively like the smells of certain types
Speaker 1: of people, and we instinctively feel opposed to the smells
Speaker 1: of certain.
Speaker 2: Types of people as well, And similarly.
Speaker 1: Like we like the look of and types of people
Speaker 1: and other people we don't like the look of. That
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean it's going to lead to really long lasting,
Speaker 1: healthy love relationships, but definitely we I would agree that
Speaker 1: attraction at first sight is official and absolutely often say
Speaker 1: to my clients, you know, the limeerates is what brings
Speaker 1: us together, attracts us first, but love is what actually
Speaker 1: keeps us together.
Speaker 5: Yeah, So when you say love it first time, maybe
Speaker 5: it's limerates at first time. Maybe I don't know. But
Speaker 5: after the limits effectsor of dies down, then you can
Speaker 5: actually really work out whether are you really connected emotionally?
Speaker 4: Yeah? Right, what is that work? I've never heard that
Speaker 4: limerates limerates effect. I like that word. It's kind of
Speaker 4: sounds like angelic, you know what I mean. It's got
Speaker 4: kind of this ethereal quality to it.
Speaker 3: I like, is it the E n C part of it,
Speaker 3: like phosphorescence or.
Speaker 4: Yeah? I think that might be it classier version of lust.
Speaker 3: Most about last year okay, yeah, a lot to try.
Speaker 4: So you dated for how long before the proposals?
Speaker 1: I think we're only dating about eleven months, but then
Speaker 1: we were friends probably about seven months.
Speaker 4: Beforehand yep, yep, and Adrian had that proposal go.
Speaker 5: So we it was very clear that we were going
Speaker 5: to I was going to pop the question, so to speak.
Speaker 5: And we'd gone and designed the ring together. So we've
Speaker 5: done all that stuff.
Speaker 4: Together, okay.
Speaker 5: And Carrie's Carrie's various stuarts. She can read she can
Speaker 5: read you just by looking at you, to put it
Speaker 5: that way. And I had to try my real best
Speaker 5: how to support well, to think about how to surprise her.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 5: And so we're going on this drive holiday up to
Speaker 5: Brisbane I think it was Brisbane And at the beginning
Speaker 5: of the troop, I sort of said to look, Darla,
Speaker 5: know that you really wanted, you know, to get engaged
Speaker 5: on this trip, but the ring's not ready. And I
Speaker 5: called the guy and it's just not ready. Lo and behold. However, however,
Speaker 5: I'd already organized with the guy I haven't done before
Speaker 5: we left, so I actually had it. I called her
Speaker 5: and then when I ended up proposing on a you know,
Speaker 5: were caravan just by the water, you know, this dingy
Speaker 5: caravan park one night, and I surprised hers, so she
Speaker 5: thought it was a joke at first, but that.
Speaker 2: Wasn't It was a very good trick.
Speaker 1: We liked to joke with each other quite a lot,
Speaker 1: so it was quite quite well done. And when I
Speaker 1: got the ring, it was dark when he proposed, so
Speaker 1: I didn't know if it was real, and.
Speaker 2: I'm like, did you get this out on one of
Speaker 2: those bubble gum machines?
Speaker 4: Like is it really?
Speaker 5: So?
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then I was pretty horrified because I saw
Speaker 1: the size of the ring and I'm not a jewelry person,
Speaker 1: and it's actually not that big.
Speaker 2: But when I saw it, I was like, oh, cheer,
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: It was lovely, lovely I'm sorry because it was too
Speaker 3: big or too small, too big.
Speaker 1: But it's not actually that big, like it's actually I'm
Speaker 1: just not a fl That was a.
Speaker 2: Bit sparkly, but I've got it now. That's fine.
Speaker 3: You've been you've been working together for how many years?
Speaker 1: Well, we've worked together for probably about eighteen maybe not
Speaker 1: even eighteen months, so we didn't actually stay in the
Speaker 1: prison system.
Speaker 2: For too much longer.
Speaker 1: So there was a lot going on there and we decided,
Speaker 1: for circumstances there, decided to leave the prison system. So
Speaker 1: we went off into different jobs for a short period
Speaker 1: of time. I went off to the Independent Commission against
Speaker 1: Corruption to do some investigations work, and Adrian went off
Speaker 1: to the New South Wales on Budsman and did some investigations.
Speaker 1: So we had probably about maybe six probably about twelve
Speaker 1: months working separately before we then came back and started
Speaker 1: working together in private practice after we got married.
Speaker 3: And how has that been? Are they highs and lows
Speaker 3: to it? And how do you sort of navigate your
Speaker 3: world doing that working together?
Speaker 5: We went very well together. Yeah, I'm really happy to say, yeah,
Speaker 5: very well. We've got we've got the same types of
Speaker 5: goals business wise, and Carrie carry's She comes up with
Speaker 5: a lot of ideas and she's the ideas person.
Speaker 2: The executioner.
Speaker 3: So you have yours.
Speaker 2: Clearly defined.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's actually one of the things that we
Speaker 1: know about happy couples is they have really clearly defined
Speaker 1: roles in their relationship, not specifically gender roles, but just
Speaker 1: this is what I'm this is what you're good at.
Speaker 1: Let's work towards our strengths. And that's something that we do,
Speaker 1: both personally and professionally quite a lot.
Speaker 3: Do we do that?
Speaker 4: Well, you are really good at taking out the rubbish.
Speaker 3: And barbecuing, and I'm really.
Speaker 4: Good at cleaning the stove top. That's yeah, it's little things.
Speaker 4: Sometimes I think we still get a bit stuck with
Speaker 4: thinking is he going to do it? Is she going
Speaker 4: to do it? We probably have a bit of that,
Speaker 4: but I think that we're fairly defined.
Speaker 3: In our role defined.
Speaker 4: I think fairly well we have been. I think it's
Speaker 4: changed in the last couple of years though, since I've
Speaker 4: been so much busier. You had to sort of do
Speaker 4: more than you normally would.
Speaker 3: We started writing a script together a couple of years ago,
Speaker 3: and that was an interesting flipping and flopping of like
Speaker 3: how do we do that? Do you guys share an office?
Speaker 3: I mean, do you actually share a physical space or
Speaker 3: in different rooms?
Speaker 2: We're in different rooms.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's one of the things people think,
Speaker 1: like how do you work together? And we spend a
Speaker 1: lot of time together personally as well, like two peas
Speaker 1: in a pod. And I said, well, actually, we don't
Speaker 1: really spend a lot of time together at work, Like
Speaker 1: the role of us, like ologists, is actually really quite autonomous.
Speaker 1: You're in your room with your door closed with your
Speaker 1: clients for like eight hours a day.
Speaker 2: So it's actually nice to have lunch together. I quite enjoyed.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's we don't actually spend heaps of time together.
Speaker 1: I think the biggest challenge we had have had running
Speaker 1: businesses together, because we've got a couple of businesses, was
Speaker 1: very early on in our marriage were quite perfectionistic. So
Speaker 1: we decided we were going to do everything, so book
Speaker 1: the clientcy and do the accounts, do the clinical work.
Speaker 1: And at one point, I'm sure our neighbors.
Speaker 2: Would have thought to you, their marriage is we're going
Speaker 2: to last very long.
Speaker 1: When we were sitting downstairs trying to do the accounts
Speaker 1: because I think we could have killed each other.
Speaker 2: And it came to a blow.
Speaker 1: We're Adrian just looked at me and said, Kerry, one
Speaker 1: of two things has got to happen. You've either got
Speaker 1: to do this by yourself or I've got to do
Speaker 1: it by myself. But we can't do it together anymore.
Speaker 1: And I said, yep, you're right. You take it, and
Speaker 1: so from that point on.
Speaker 2: We divide and conquer a lot of things.
Speaker 4: Are you able to turn off this sort of psychologist's
Speaker 4: mind when you meet people or have dinner with friends,
Speaker 4: or is your minds always kind of analyzing, you know,
Speaker 4: the relationship because you're sitting there.
Speaker 5: It's hard. It's hard to switch off.
Speaker 3: Lucky you're psychoanalyzing us right now, that's off.
Speaker 5: Now. We I have a very very strict rule that
Speaker 5: you know, when we're driving home from the office and
Speaker 5: we're about to yeah home, so we drive home and
Speaker 5: car and we're allowed to speak about anything about work
Speaker 5: and that drive home. As soon as we pull into
Speaker 5: our eyes that's it. Stop.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I like that, but it is sometimes hard.
Speaker 1: Yeah, switch you try to keep it switched off everywhere.
Speaker 1: But I think when you've been doing the job for
Speaker 1: like twenty odd years. As is the case for anybody,
Speaker 1: it's hard to sort of separate. And I think we're
Speaker 1: so immersed in our work as well, both personally and professionally.
Speaker 1: Like it was a big step from going just into
Speaker 1: from being individual psychologists into being a couple, a couple
Speaker 1: that is a couple of therapists, you know, So that
Speaker 1: was quite a big step and for us, so I think,
Speaker 1: you know, honesty and transparency and living truth is very important.
Speaker 1: So we weren't going to go and become couples therapists
Speaker 1: if we couldn't live that out ourselves. So we live
Speaker 1: out what we teach and what we do in therapy
Speaker 1: in our life. So it does sometimes feel like the
Speaker 1: lines are a little bit hard to manage, but we
Speaker 1: do really try. We have no interest in analyzing our
Speaker 1: friends and family.
Speaker 4: What about what about celebrities though? Do you ever kind
Speaker 4: of read about a couple and then just look at
Speaker 4: each other and go it?
Speaker 2: We just don't.
Speaker 1: We don't and we don't watch any reality TV and.
Speaker 3: You don't even watch maths. I'm sure there would be
Speaker 3: like a circus for you guys, wouldn't it, You be right?
Speaker 2: Accuse me, I just look at people what's happening to
Speaker 2: their hearts. It just it kills me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I actually I'm in the same place where
Speaker 3: you are. I look at that show and just go,
Speaker 3: oh my god, just that person's really out there looking
Speaker 3: for love. And you've got some dude who's coming from
Speaker 3: some other country and he's just ready a role, you know,
Speaker 3: and move on, get a little famous or something. And
Speaker 3: at the same time.
Speaker 5: When you when you're when you consider the pain and
Speaker 5: suffering people have gone through in the in their childhoods
Speaker 5: and maybe even traumas and everything like that, you sort
Speaker 5: of understand why they are the way they are, and
Speaker 5: the vulnerabil has come out relationships and they you know,
Speaker 5: if you if you're already vulnerable inside, you can become hurt.
Speaker 5: You can get hurt. So you just trying to protect yourself,
Speaker 5: and you know, you can you can see that being
Speaker 5: played out in relationships and even on TV and reality
Speaker 5: to TV and you know, and everything like that. You
Speaker 5: can see it and it is painful to see that
Speaker 5: and that people are suffering. But so that's why we
Speaker 5: try to try not to do that.
Speaker 3: Is that usually the case that people where that today's
Speaker 3: problems come from it is usually from a childhood wound.
Speaker 1: It's really interesting, Like I think it's definitely the word
Speaker 1: attachment now this their big buzzword on social media, and
Speaker 1: it's really exciting that people are starting to learn about
Speaker 1: attachment theory. But attachment theory underpins most of what we
Speaker 1: do in psychology, and in a nutshell, it is about
Speaker 1: how when we come into the world do we attach
Speaker 1: to our primary care gives, so mum and dad, and
Speaker 1: how are not only our physical needs met but also
Speaker 1: our emotional needs to connection and understanding and support and
Speaker 1: compassion and love and safety. And so the research really
Speaker 1: tells us that what happens to us in early childhood,
Speaker 1: particularly the first three years of our life, which most
Speaker 1: of us don't remember, will begin to replicate itself in
Speaker 1: our adult romantic relationships. So if we have unfortunately an
Speaker 1: insecure attachment with our primary caregivers for one reason or another,
Speaker 1: through neglect, abuse, or various other things, then we're likely
Speaker 1: to then develop an insecure attachment style in our adult
Speaker 1: relationships and even parenting our own children.
Speaker 2: And so I think as psychologists we.
Speaker 1: Just understand that the childhood stuff just underpins a hell
Speaker 1: of a lot of what we go through as adults,
Speaker 1: and in turn, in response to your question, Cam, it
Speaker 1: would definitely be affecting the way that we have relationships,
Speaker 1: the marital relationships.
Speaker 4: Now, what do you find in your practice is the
Speaker 4: biggest relationship Not so much red flag, but what tares
Speaker 4: couples apart the most.
Speaker 5: If you boil it all down, it's emotional disconnection.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 5: If you even say, for example, you know there's been
Speaker 5: distrust or a breach of confidence, affairs, whatever it is,
Speaker 5: and if you track it back often most often it's
Speaker 5: about the couple is emotionally disconnected somewhere down the track.
Speaker 5: And then there's what John Gotman says. I know, you
Speaker 5: guys sort of follow John Gotmin. It's like starts a
Speaker 5: cascade towards separation, breakdown, divorce, et cetera, et cetera. So
Speaker 5: in a nutshell, it's emotional.
Speaker 1: Disconnection, really yeah, And I think it probably sort of
Speaker 1: extending on that. It looks like something else. So it
Speaker 1: looks like we're fighting about in waws, it looks like
Speaker 1: we're fighting about sex, it looks like we're fighting about money.
Speaker 1: But in actual fact, what we're fighting about a lot
Speaker 1: of the time is we've lost our way with each other.
Speaker 1: So we just don't know how to connect. We don't
Speaker 1: know how to have like vulnerable conversations. And I think
Speaker 1: you know, as you go through marriage, the challenge is
Speaker 1: how do you stay connected by continually getting to know
Speaker 1: who your partner is as they continue to grow, change
Speaker 1: and evolve. But I think that's what we forget sometimes
Speaker 1: when we get married. We think, oh, I like this
Speaker 1: person right here, right now, and I like who they
Speaker 1: are and the way they look and the way they think.
Speaker 2: But we're forgetting they're.
Speaker 1: Actually marrying person who is in a constant state of evolution,
Speaker 1: change and growth. And so if we don't continue, as
Speaker 1: doctor Godman says, to date one another and get to
Speaker 1: know one another, we're actually just.
Speaker 2: Going to lose our way.
Speaker 1: And it's not at all uncommon when we see people
Speaker 1: coming into couples therapy that they just they don't know
Speaker 1: who their partner is. They talk about men like chips
Speaker 1: in the night, We don't know each other. Send them
Speaker 1: out on a date night, they look at you and like,
Speaker 1: what are we going to talk about? Because they've got
Speaker 1: nothing to talk about, you know. So, yeah, it looks
Speaker 1: like a lot of other things.
Speaker 5: But underneath it.
Speaker 1: I'd say the primary is should I agree with you
Speaker 1: as emotional disconnection and distance.
Speaker 3: It's full on, isn't it. And I mean, Alie and
Speaker 3: I have been married for thirty one years now and
Speaker 3: we I feel like we've been through a lot of
Speaker 3: variations of what you're talking about. And I know that
Speaker 3: as you're talking about that, my my belly just flips,
Speaker 3: you know, because we are dynamic and we do change
Speaker 3: and and and and it flips because of the fear
Speaker 3: of like that. It comes back to fear, I think,
Speaker 3: fear of I don't know, I'm not quite sure yet,
Speaker 3: but but that stays with me and I and for
Speaker 3: me and hearing things like emotional detachment or you know,
Speaker 3: a lot of a lot of sort of therapized labels.
Speaker 3: They can, they can they throw me off, And I've
Speaker 3: used them, you know, guilty, but I've always used them,
Speaker 3: maybe to keep distance with something or try and understand
Speaker 3: something better. But actually the hard part for me is
Speaker 3: always getting back to what's the what's the actual the
Speaker 3: truth of it without putting a flashy label on it,
Speaker 3: but to get that to the real heart of the feeling,
Speaker 3: and to me, it often comes back down to fear
Speaker 3: of not being seen or just feeling alone.
Speaker 5: Yeah, alone, absolutely, Jamie. What you're talking about there is
Speaker 5: what we call attachment fears. Attachment fears one hundred percent
Speaker 5: agree with that. It is about fear. It's about fear
Speaker 5: of not belonging. It's not the feel about not feeling
Speaker 5: approved of or accepted by one another. Right, and when
Speaker 5: we don't feel that we are accepted and we fear
Speaker 5: that stuff happening, then we go into our you know,
Speaker 5: that sort of very primal self protective mode that we
Speaker 5: taught ourselves when we were you know, as a child.
Speaker 5: We taught ourselves how to survive right in through the
Speaker 5: so called traumas of childhood. And we just go back
Speaker 5: to that. And when that happens and we don't effectively
Speaker 5: work through those things, such as those attachment fears, that
Speaker 5: it can tear the relationship apart. And there's a really
Speaker 5: good sort of model of therapy that I'm not sure
Speaker 5: if you guys have heard it, called e f T
Speaker 5: or emotionally focused therapy by Foodson. She's another clinical psychologist.
Speaker 5: Moment the station, I think, and basically the premise of
Speaker 5: that is is helping couples or individuals to actually identify
Speaker 5: what their fears are from childhood, because that is actually
Speaker 5: what gets triggered off when we have dysfunctional conflict in
Speaker 5: our relationships. We just or we all go back, we
Speaker 5: revert back to our childhood state where we felt safest
Speaker 5: and how we protected ourselves as children. And that's yeah,
Speaker 5: that's right. So I totally agree about that fire.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So how can we be better at noticing when
Speaker 3: Because it's, like I said, it's a dynamic thing, and
Speaker 3: you've noticed we're always changing and moving. How do you
Speaker 3: get better at noticing when things are sliding not in
Speaker 3: the grass?
Speaker 1: Think, I think the thing that's most important to understand
Speaker 1: is that and it's very hard to do in the
Speaker 1: modern days that relationships take time, Like we don't actually
Speaker 1: afford enough time to just sit and get to know
Speaker 1: one another and talk to one another, whether.
Speaker 2: It's as couples or even with our own children.
Speaker 1: You know. And so to give people, I suppose, something
Speaker 1: to strive for, Like the Gotman Institute talks about there's
Speaker 1: a difference between happy couples and unhappy couples of about
Speaker 1: six hours a week, which is less than an hour
Speaker 1: a day. And if you check your social media usage.
Speaker 1: I reckon you can find the time, but it's time
Speaker 1: that you actually have to dedicate to your relationships. So
Speaker 1: that means like chatting with each other each day about
Speaker 1: like how's your day been going? Like what have you
Speaker 1: been stressed about? How can I support you? How can
Speaker 1: I comfort you in the day to day stresses, making
Speaker 1: sure we share like fondness and admiration and affection with
Speaker 1: one another every day, but most importantly late, let's sit
Speaker 1: down once a week. The Gotman Institute talks about having
Speaker 1: a state of the Union conversation, which is like having
Speaker 1: a meeting about your relationship, like what have we done
Speaker 1: well this week?
Speaker 2: How have we managed you know, challenging things this week?
Speaker 1: And then it also provides a really safe space for
Speaker 1: us to say and this is what hasn't been working
Speaker 1: for me or this is my complaint for the week,
Speaker 1: and then gives each other the opportunity to say, like
Speaker 1: what what can I do to make you feel loved
Speaker 1: and supported this week? So like, beautiful conversations like that
Speaker 1: really prevent the slide that you were talking about.
Speaker 3: Cam.
Speaker 1: If you just are very intentional about, you know, making
Speaker 1: sure you connect regularly, that can prevent the slide I
Speaker 1: think from occurring.
Speaker 4: That's great, and it's it's simple like that. That's what
Speaker 4: I love. Okay, could you just you know, I know
Speaker 4: it's hard to sort of put it in a nutshell,
Speaker 4: but could you just explain to the listeners what the
Speaker 4: Gotman Institute is. I know both of you are trained.
Speaker 4: What would you say, Gotman Institute, got therapist, there you go.
Speaker 4: So if you could explain a little bit more about
Speaker 4: what that actually means.
Speaker 1: So the Gotman Institution has been operating for over four
Speaker 1: decades now. Prior to their work and the work of
Speaker 1: doctor su Johnson we reference before. In the study of relationships,
Speaker 1: what we found was that couples, no matter where they
Speaker 1: went to go and get help, their relationships would get worse,
Speaker 1: not better. So even if they went to a therapist
Speaker 1: or their family, their relationships wouldn't get any better. The
Speaker 1: Gotman Institute is fantastic insofar as it's the first bunch
Speaker 1: of people that have actually stopped and paused and looked
Speaker 1: at what it takes to make a relationship work. So
Speaker 1: they've been instrumental in studying couples and doing what we
Speaker 1: call longitudinal research following them up for decades after their
Speaker 1: initial study, and they've looked at couples in their environments.
Speaker 1: So they've actually looked at what it is that they
Speaker 1: do that makes their relationship work. And this has been
Speaker 1: described in their work the seven Principles that make Marriage Work.
Speaker 1: So what we do as Gotman therapists using the Gotman
Speaker 1: Men method is we're teaching couples or unhappy couples, what
Speaker 1: happy couples naturally do. Because we know that there are
Speaker 1: couples that are unhappy. We're staring down the barrel of
Speaker 1: around about a fifty percent of all straight but all
Speaker 1: those ones that are unhappy, there's also a bunch of
Speaker 1: people not quite another fifty percent. I don't think there's
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of people that just innately know how
Speaker 1: to make relationships work. And you would know those people
Speaker 1: when you come across them. They're just those couples that
Speaker 1: everybody actually wants to be. They still hold hands when
Speaker 1: they're like eighty and still look into each other's eyes.
Speaker 1: And so the Gotmin Institute, their method of therapy is
Speaker 1: all about teaching couples what happy couples are doing day
Speaker 1: in day out that make their relationship go.
Speaker 5: The distance.
Speaker 2: Probably not the neatest nutshell, but.
Speaker 4: No, that was great. And can you, Adrian, tell us,
Speaker 4: what are some of the things that a happy couple
Speaker 4: does every day?
Speaker 5: Yeah, so this is what godin calls the masters of
Speaker 5: relationship versus the unfortunate name of the disasters says, masters
Speaker 5: versus disasters relationships.
Speaker 3: You falls that line, right, that's right.
Speaker 5: But they so masters. They first of all, they do
Speaker 5: a lot of what what Gotman calls small things often.
Speaker 5: So it's it's not it's not good enough to go
Speaker 5: through life together not connecting on a daily basis, and
Speaker 5: then having those one or two really big gestures, you know,
Speaker 5: once or twice a year, because they mean nothing if
Speaker 5: you're not connecting constantly. So what Gotman suggests is small
Speaker 5: things often, and these are very very simple things that
Speaker 5: anyone can do in your listeners could start doing the
Speaker 5: right away. One of them is what he calls the
Speaker 5: sixth second kiss. And so that meaning that when you
Speaker 5: are greeting each other, you know, when when you finished
Speaker 5: work or you're saying goodbye in the morning, that you
Speaker 5: actually make physical contact. You kiss bought six seconds. If
Speaker 5: you've ever timed out six second, that's quite a longside
Speaker 5: of that, it's a kiss for But anyway, that's what
Speaker 5: they've sort of found and that creates again an emotional connection.
Speaker 5: Kerry mentioned the state of the Union conversation, So that's
Speaker 5: weakly having this conversation about how our relationship is going,
Speaker 5: what are the pitfalls, what's going well, etc. What are
Speaker 5: your needs and are they being mets and everything like that.
Speaker 5: It's also having and I think this is probably really
Speaker 5: important for it for all of us, is having extremely
Speaker 5: functional conflicts because in relationships, obviously we're not going to
Speaker 5: agree on everything with different people, and in couples therapy
Speaker 5: we don't say you have to agree with each other
Speaker 5: on everything. It's still individuals. But so if conflict is inevitable,
Speaker 5: we need to be able to have conflict that is functional. Right,
Speaker 5: So this is what the masters do, and just in
Speaker 5: a Nutch of how they do it, they when they're
Speaker 5: having conflict, they take care of each other. It's not
Speaker 5: me against you, it's us against the issue. Right. We
Speaker 5: are gentle with each other and soft with each other
Speaker 5: when we're working through the problem. I don't shut you down.
Speaker 5: I listen when you're talking. If you're in pain. Gotlin,
Speaker 5: one of Gotlin sayings is when you're in pain, my
Speaker 5: whole world stops and you're the only one in it.
Speaker 5: Type of thing I seek to understand you. I demonstrate compassion, empathy,
Speaker 5: and validation even if I disagree with you. You know,
Speaker 5: these are the things that anyone can do. Yeah, to
Speaker 5: be difficult, difficult in the heat at the moment, but
Speaker 5: these are some of the things that the Masters are
Speaker 5: doing naturally.
Speaker 4: I remember from reading some of their work, and I've
Speaker 4: mentioned this before on the podcast, but it really hit me.
Speaker 4: Is one of the things I loved them talking about
Speaker 4: is look for the signs of when someone's making a
Speaker 4: bid for connection. And it might not look like, as
Speaker 4: you say, the big grand gestures, but it might just
Speaker 4: be are you hungry? Yeah, do you want a cup
Speaker 4: of tea? You know, it's those little gestures that say
Speaker 4: also saying I love you mean something to me. And
Speaker 4: I just I loved that because it just brings me
Speaker 4: an awareness of of how many times you know you're
Speaker 4: thinking of me, you know, when you give me a
Speaker 4: call or a text or do you know what I mean,
Speaker 4: And it's just like an emoji or an emoji.
Speaker 3: I got mad at her once because she didn't wasn't
Speaker 3: she wasn't re emojiing me when I was like, and
Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm sending you, Yeah, I'm sending all these
Speaker 3: emojis of love, arts and kisses and stuff, and she's
Speaker 3: just sending me these straight words and I'm just going
Speaker 3: what Finally, I said, you got it reaching out by
Speaker 3: a text, you know what, I'm emojis.
Speaker 4: But then what happened was is that I went back
Speaker 4: through all the text messages and lo and behold there
Speaker 4: were emojis. And I was like, a mate, I'm like, well.
Speaker 2: What's this?
Speaker 3: This?
Speaker 4: This, this this and this and this is this. It
Speaker 4: was like we were ships in the night on the emoji.
Speaker 5: Train talking about there. Ali is turning towards bids connect.
Speaker 5: So that whole turning towards is that's essential. The other
Speaker 5: ways you can and they're not preferable. Of course, they're
Speaker 5: turning it away or turning against. So turning away is
Speaker 5: just ignoring the bid. Turning against is actually turning against
Speaker 5: your partner, braiding them or whatnot for making that bid.
Speaker 5: But we want to be turning towards and the masters,
Speaker 5: I think the statistic is the masters turn towards each
Speaker 5: other eighty six percent of the time. That's pretty high,
Speaker 5: pretty high. But the disasters are only turning towards each
Speaker 5: other thirty three percent of the time, So it's a
Speaker 5: big difference. But that's actually what shows that your partner you,
Speaker 5: I'm aware of you on my world and I'm constantly
Speaker 5: seeking you out, and whenever you're making a bid, I'm
Speaker 5: looking to meet that emotionally. And so yeah, so the
Speaker 5: turning towards bids is extremely important.
Speaker 1: It is challenging to do there, and I think again
Speaker 1: that can come back to early life experiences. So what
Speaker 1: we have experienced growing up as bids for connection in
Speaker 1: our own family of origin can result in us sometimes
Speaker 1: missing completely that our partner is actually making a bid
Speaker 1: for connection.
Speaker 2: Perfect example is somebody.
Speaker 1: Might have grown up in an environment where the way
Speaker 1: they connected was by being quite playful and joking all
Speaker 1: of the time, and they might not have been great
Speaker 1: at sitting down and having deep emotional conversations, but that playful,
Speaker 1: joking sort of approach was how they tried to connect
Speaker 1: with family, and so you can then miss that bid
Speaker 1: for connection and just feel irritated with your partners joking
Speaker 1: around but not realize that they're actually attempting to connect
Speaker 1: with you.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's hard, and I think what you were saying,
Speaker 2: Ali was good.
Speaker 1: You need to sort of like look out for the
Speaker 1: bids for connection and in return and respond to them
Speaker 1: turn towards them.
Speaker 3: So I guess that would be alleviated or brought to
Speaker 3: light through one of these States of the Union checks
Speaker 3: that you have. And you're going, you know, you don't
Speaker 3: give me what I'm needing or whatever, and then you go, yeah,
Speaker 3: but this is the way I do it. Question for you,
Speaker 3: Al did you get because Ali brought in the State
Speaker 3: of the Union thing to us, But I'm not sure
Speaker 3: if you've actually pitched it like that. You just said
Speaker 3: we should we should actually sit down at a certain time,
Speaker 3: you know, so it was a weekend thing and we'll
Speaker 3: chat about where we're at. Was that from the Gotman Institute?
Speaker 4: Yea, yeah, I didn't know. I actually didn't know it
Speaker 4: was called the State of the Union. I didn't Actually
Speaker 4: it's a very American thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think
Speaker 4: it was weird because we just kept it to three questions.
Speaker 4: It's like, what went really well this week with you
Speaker 4: and I? What do we what? What do you? And
Speaker 4: it was just the way it was phrase. It wasn't like,
Speaker 4: you know, it wasn't like when were you a dickhead?
Speaker 4: This week we changed it to that, we change it
Speaker 4: it was yeah, it was yeah, what what didn't what
Speaker 4: wasn't working? And what do you And then we finished
Speaker 4: with what do you want more of? What more do
Speaker 4: you want?
Speaker 1: So?
Speaker 4: And I really liked that finishing with that because then
Speaker 4: it's still finished on a still finished on a positive yeah.
Speaker 4: So yeah.
Speaker 1: And then the other thing that is added in the
Speaker 1: State of the Union that's really important and grossly underestimated
Speaker 1: how important this is is sharing fondness and admiration and appreciations.
Speaker 1: Like actually, and this is one of the big things
Speaker 1: that we have to teach people is it's not enough
Speaker 1: to think nice thoughts about your partner, Like as we
Speaker 1: are all inherently actually quite insecure. So if I'm not
Speaker 1: hearing from you that you approve of me, that you
Speaker 1: like me, that you appreciate me, that you value me,
Speaker 1: I start to doubt whether or not those things are true.
Speaker 1: And so that's something we do a lot of when
Speaker 1: we're dating. We tell each other what we like about
Speaker 1: each other a lot. But that's one of the things
Speaker 1: that masters do when we encourage that. In the State
Speaker 1: of the Union as well, Like started off with not
Speaker 1: only what did we do well as a couple, but hey,
Speaker 1: I've been looking at you and here's a situation. I
Speaker 1: saw you get down and play with our little daughter
Speaker 1: when she fell over and hurt her knee, and I
Speaker 1: just looked at how comforted she was by your beautiful
Speaker 1: hug and I'm so glad that you're her dad. Like,
Speaker 1: it's those sorts of things that you actually have to
Speaker 1: say out loud to people because that really really strengthens
Speaker 1: the relationship.
Speaker 3: Yeah, what do you say to cynics? You must come
Speaker 3: up against people in therapy who come in like the
Speaker 3: husband or the partner's been dragged in by the other person,
Speaker 3: and they just going, I just don't that's not necessary.
Speaker 3: What do I have to say that? What you know?
Speaker 3: And are they like the hard the hard edge, the
Speaker 3: hard shell people? And then you bust through them and
Speaker 3: then they yeah, minutes they're crumbled. But how do you
Speaker 3: deal with those with those cynics? What what do you do?
Speaker 3: Because I sometimes feel that myself. In fact, as we're talking,
Speaker 3: I'm going, I don't want to have a state of
Speaker 3: the union thing.
Speaker 5: I don't want to have to.
Speaker 3: I can think of a half my golf buddies up
Speaker 3: there on the hill would just be like, just relax,
Speaker 3: have a beer, you know, so what do you? What
Speaker 3: do you? How do you crack that egg?
Speaker 5: Really good question, and then we do come up against that.
Speaker 5: It's not just males, right, it's but it comes look,
Speaker 5: I think I think it comes down to the concept
Speaker 5: of what we call meta emotions meta emotions, and really
Speaker 5: it just means that how well or it does does
Speaker 5: how is the person of the individual and the relationship,
Speaker 5: how much does it place on talking about how we
Speaker 5: feel to each other. It's the importance that we place
Speaker 5: on how much or how we we're talking about how
Speaker 5: we feel about each other talking about how we feel
Speaker 5: to each other. Uh. And a lot of us have
Speaker 5: what we call low metal, meaning that we don't place
Speaker 5: importance on talking about how we feel because of the
Speaker 5: way we're going back to what we talked about, our
Speaker 5: attachment styles, about the way we were taught about or
Speaker 5: not taught about our emotions. So some of us are,
Speaker 5: and your lisses might a lot of your listens will
Speaker 5: probably relate to this that we weren't raised to acknowledge
Speaker 5: that emotions are important. We weren't nurtured in our emotions.
Speaker 5: We were some of us might have even been told
Speaker 5: that our emotions, our emotions are wrong, we shouldn't have them,
Speaker 5: and what we shouldn't feel, that we should feel something else,
Speaker 5: or no, that's not okay, you're a big boy or girl,
Speaker 5: you shouldn't cry, all that sort of stuff. I mean,
Speaker 5: this is this is quite common in people, and so
Speaker 5: when we got into adults and we have our adult relationships,
Speaker 5: we carry that with us. And we've never been able
Speaker 5: to understand what our emotions actually are, and so therefore
Speaker 5: we're uncomfortable we're talking about emotions, especially our negative emotions,
Speaker 5: so we shut them down, all right, And then we
Speaker 5: do we sort of say, well, why do I have
Speaker 5: to say that? Why can't we all just get along?
Speaker 5: Why can't we just that's okay, don't worry, you're too sensitive,
Speaker 5: It's all right, Yeah, there's no problem here. But it
Speaker 5: comes down to how comfortable do we feel in ourselves
Speaker 5: about talking about emotions. And if we assess an individual
Speaker 5: or a couple that are low in matter emotions, we
Speaker 5: do a lot of work to teach them how to
Speaker 5: talk about emotions and teach them about importance of feelings
Speaker 5: and when you actually are able to express your vulnerable
Speaker 5: feelings for each other, your vulnerable emotional needs to each other,
Speaker 5: and the other person actually hears that and validates that
Speaker 5: and says that makes a lot of sense, and I
Speaker 5: want that for you. Then that teaches them and reinforces
Speaker 5: for them that's okay to have emotions. It's okay to
Speaker 5: tell my part. It's safe to tell my part that
Speaker 5: I feel this, even if it's a negative emotion. So yeah,
Speaker 5: so that's quite.
Speaker 3: An adult It's quite an adult thing, though, isn't it, Adrian,
Speaker 3: Because I know for me in my family, we were
Speaker 3: not brought up to be speaking emotions. And I know
Speaker 3: my mum and dad have have railed against me in
Speaker 3: the last twenty five thirty years, you know, God, dam
Speaker 3: you just you talk too much, or you know, it's
Speaker 3: you're you get too emotional or deep or just you
Speaker 3: know that sort of stuff. So it's not really supported
Speaker 3: yet yet it is supported when the byproduct of it
Speaker 3: is comes out, you know, and it's been a better result.
Speaker 3: So though I find having that's been my training, that's
Speaker 3: almost like a default thing. So if I'm not in
Speaker 3: the adult mind, you know, in a grown up cam
Speaker 3: version of me, if I'm back, you know, I saw
Speaker 3: an image of actually I said, it's someone today of
Speaker 3: a grown man sucking on a dummy, and it's like this,
Speaker 3: you know, this childish way of being. If I feel
Speaker 3: like that, I can easily drift back into that attitude
Speaker 3: of we don't need to talk, you know, I'd rather not.
Speaker 3: So that's what I mean. It takes a conscious mind
Speaker 3: and an adult intention to say I want to have
Speaker 3: I know, most of the time, I want to have
Speaker 3: a better relationship, I want to be seen, I want
Speaker 3: to have my needs mat So there's this constant push me,
Speaker 3: pull you. And I'm sure I'm sure there's going to
Speaker 3: be a lot of our listeners. I would hope i'd
Speaker 3: think I'm an island here, but I think a lot
Speaker 3: of people would relate to that. Is that your experience too?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that we just really grossly underestimate how important
Speaker 1: our emotional world. And we live in a culture I think,
Speaker 1: you know, where it's easy to make fun of emotions,
Speaker 1: like I think that's a huge part of it as well.
Speaker 1: But I think that when you get people into couple's
Speaker 1: therapy and you can actually help them very much experience
Speaker 1: emotional connection with a therapist and then with their partner,
Speaker 1: that is transformative. Like I call it magic. Like I'm
Speaker 1: on a high after sessions when I have a session
Speaker 1: of what we call an engaged emotional encounter where I
Speaker 1: talk about two hearts meeting. And often it's not even
Speaker 1: a lot of words that need to be said in
Speaker 1: those moments, but it's like the look in someone's eyes
Speaker 1: when they can look into their partner's eyes and actually
Speaker 1: see and feel their pain. And when we receive that
Speaker 1: sort of care, like we're seen on a very deep level,
Speaker 1: we're known on a very deep level, and our pain
Speaker 1: and hurt makes sense to another person. There is nothing
Speaker 1: like that. The toughest man will crumble under that, the
Speaker 1: hardest woman will crumble under that, and not crumble in
Speaker 1: a bad way, but in a way of like, this
Speaker 1: is what I'm longing for. This is what all human
Speaker 1: beings are longing for, deep emotional connection, fully being seen,
Speaker 1: known and cared for by another human. Yeah, and that
Speaker 1: transforms people.
Speaker 2: And then you see.
Speaker 1: People going, all right, what's the name of that book?
Speaker 1: You're telling me about how can we do this? What
Speaker 1: courses can we come to?
Speaker 2: And they literally.
Speaker 1: Turn turn a corner corner.
Speaker 2: It's just it's magic, funny.
Speaker 4: I love it and I and I just see that
Speaker 4: working across the board, you know, as a parent, to
Speaker 4: the child, as your girlfriend, you know, as your sisters,
Speaker 4: or wherever you're having relationship. As you said, everyone wants
Speaker 4: to be seen and heard. It's particularly in their vulnerable
Speaker 4: emotions and working with kids like I do. I've got
Speaker 4: a there's a there's one girl in my class particularly
Speaker 4: who I who I work with, and she's special needs.
Speaker 4: But at the same time, she's so special because she
Speaker 4: will look at me and she'll she'll go, I am
Speaker 4: feeling really angry right now, and it is building in
Speaker 4: my body and I've got to scream. It's like, all right,
Speaker 4: we're going outside to scream. I'm like, imagine if we
Speaker 4: could all say things like that, so good, so good.
Speaker 4: I know, right she's been taught either by her mum
Speaker 4: or her therapist, god lover, but I just love that.
Speaker 4: I'm like, Wow, if we could all just be that
Speaker 4: expressive from such a young age, you know, we'd be
Speaker 4: we'd be a lot more connected than probably you know,
Speaker 4: a lot of us are not. But yeah, I love it.
Speaker 5: It's the innocence you know, children, isn't it. You know,
Speaker 5: we're corrupted by the world, the world type of thing,
Speaker 5: you know. But I just want to just sort of
Speaker 5: ad to go back to what you said came before
Speaker 5: about that fear. You know, you're mentioning that fear. And
Speaker 5: because of that fear and the hurts from childhood, right,
Speaker 5: we build this shell around us, right, And that's and
Speaker 5: that shell tells us not to be vulnerable, because every
Speaker 5: time I was vulnerable as a child, I was not
Speaker 5: given by in fact, love was taken away from me,
Speaker 5: or I was punished for that, or I was abused
Speaker 5: things like that, right, And so what happens is that
Speaker 5: shell stays with us. And when we get those types
Speaker 5: of people who've been so hurting in therapy, no way
Speaker 5: they're going to just at a whim just say, oh, okay,
Speaker 5: I'm going to be vulnerable now, right, a complete stranger
Speaker 5: in the worst time of my life. Yeah, in my relationship.
Speaker 5: So but what couples therapy is about, it's about showing
Speaker 5: that hurt individual that their partner is their source of
Speaker 5: safety and their source of comfort, right, and it might
Speaker 5: not be that way right at the start of therapy.
Speaker 5: They might have hurt each other so much and there's
Speaker 5: so much distrust and betrayal there. But our job as
Speaker 5: therapist is to be able to create that what you know,
Speaker 5: they would cause we would call secure attachment right between
Speaker 5: the two the two individuals. And once we reach to
Speaker 5: secure attachment, then each party feels able to be vulnerable
Speaker 5: with each other and then meta emotions build and then
Speaker 5: they can emotionally connect reconnect, and that's just blossoms. So
Speaker 5: it is coming right back to that fear stuff of
Speaker 5: childhood and undoing that I guess within the therapeutic situation, and.
Speaker 1: It might if I can just add, because I think
Speaker 1: this would be something really helpful for your listeners to understand,
Speaker 1: is that the fear is really profound, like it's on
Speaker 1: a visceral level, Like it's like a phobia.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 1: Like some people are just so distressed or uncomfortable with
Speaker 1: any feelings of vulnerability that they can actually become completely mute,
Speaker 1: like unable to speak when they get overwhelmed with emotion.
Speaker 1: And that obviously for the person that's trying to connect
Speaker 1: with them is really challenging. But we also really have
Speaker 1: to understand that the person who hasn't been really guided
Speaker 1: on how to get in touch with their emotions, like,
Speaker 1: they're in a lot of distress when they're shout down,
Speaker 1: they're very, very overwhelmed, and they're very uncomfortable. And if
Speaker 1: you can think of your worse fear like mine would
Speaker 1: be walking to the edge of a cliff, like and
Speaker 1: just jumping off. Like that's what we're asking people to
Speaker 1: do when we're asking them to talk about their emotions,
Speaker 1: and we don't give that enough enough credit. How hard
Speaker 1: that is.
Speaker 4: If you're in a relationship with someone who, Okay, you've
Speaker 4: recognized this person is completely shut down to having a
Speaker 4: vulnerable conversation about their feelings because okay, now I understand
Speaker 4: it's about fear. What would I do then? How do
Speaker 4: I support that person to have a conversation about their feelings.
Speaker 2: You're asking the right person, because I'm married to the guys.
Speaker 3: Is it something you guys go through?
Speaker 5: Your friendly neighbor. Psychologists also have problems.
Speaker 3: You're human.
Speaker 5: And we all struggle, right, And no, I'm not comfortable
Speaker 5: with talking about emotions in my personal life. I'm great
Speaker 5: at you know, my therapy stuff because it's other people's emotions,
Speaker 5: but you know, I can guide them through that. But
Speaker 5: just to feel my own that that's that's difficult for me.
Speaker 5: And you know, with through all the stuff that we've learned,
Speaker 5: you know, as professionals, but also growing in our emotional
Speaker 5: connection as a married couple. And Carrie carry is a
Speaker 5: natural at this stuff, right she she really is, and
Speaker 5: she lives and breathes, breathes and stuff. I've learned a
Speaker 5: lot from her, you know, personally, and she's provided me
Speaker 5: with a secure base, you know, emotionally, so that you
Speaker 5: know when I when when when emotions come up for me,
Speaker 5: especially those difficult, painful emotions and negative emotions, when I
Speaker 5: start to feel that my natural interestinct is to withdraw
Speaker 5: into myself and that's because of my stuff, my baggage
Speaker 5: that I'm carrying from childhood and everything like that. But
Speaker 5: what has helped me is that being married to Kerry,
Speaker 5: and she loves to talk about her own emotions in
Speaker 5: a very articulate way. She will encourage me to do that,
Speaker 5: but she does it gentlely, and a gentleness comes this
Speaker 5: realization that oh, okay, well here's someone here's willing to
Speaker 5: see me, hear me, and understand me without judgment, right
Speaker 5: without without any sort of repercussions for feeling the way
Speaker 5: I feel, even if it's a negative emotion, and that
Speaker 5: provides me with a secure base to go okay. So
Speaker 5: emotions are actually okay, you know. And they're not these
Speaker 5: things I should hide away and be ashamed of. They
Speaker 5: are things that are naturally occurring within me and are
Speaker 5: going to be encouraged by the one that I love
Speaker 5: and the one who loves me. And therefore I'm more
Speaker 5: willing to feel able. I feel empowered enough to be
Speaker 5: able to be open about those and to validation and
Speaker 5: compassion and unconditional love. And that's how that works and
Speaker 5: what brings that type of person with their difficulties with
Speaker 5: emotions and difficulties with better emotions out to talk openly
Speaker 5: with people that you trust that you feel secure here.
Speaker 3: I'm glad you said that, Adrian, with people you trust,
Speaker 3: because some of us tend to overshare with people that
Speaker 3: that and you kind of got, why are they telling
Speaker 3: me this? You know they don't know me from Adam.
Speaker 3: I also have that with with my charity, my Men's Team,
Speaker 3: and we have our we have our team, and you
Speaker 3: know will be and this is the this has been
Speaker 3: That tricky thing is to get men to come and
Speaker 3: share what's going on, share their life in that way.
Speaker 3: But I always encourage guys just just do as much
Speaker 3: as you're comfortable with. And it's going to take a
Speaker 3: little time to learn to trust this group. They may
Speaker 3: be friends, but they also may be strangers. But I
Speaker 3: think it's really important to hold in you know, what
Speaker 3: is sacred to you. Until you have that that trust
Speaker 3: in yourself and that it's been it's reflected with the
Speaker 3: people that you're sharing are with.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, coming back to what you were saying, Ali
Speaker 1: about what do you do if you've got a partner
Speaker 1: who withdraws a lot. I think that's probably one of
Speaker 1: the biggest things that we actually see as a problem
Speaker 1: in couples therapy is something that is termed the distance
Speaker 1: of pursuer dynamic. So that's a dynamic where we've got
Speaker 1: one party and in our relationship, that would be me
Speaker 1: who's in pursuit of Let's sit down, let's talk about
Speaker 1: our feelings, let's talk about this issue, let's try and
Speaker 1: sort this out, and then we've got one person who
Speaker 1: is the distancer or with the withdrawer. So any sign
Speaker 1: of conflict, they just retreat and withdraw. And so the
Speaker 1: important thing is not to get caught up in the
Speaker 1: distance of pursuer dynamic, because the more the pursuer pursues,
Speaker 1: the more the distance a distances, and the more the
Speaker 1: distance are distances, the more it initiates or promotes the
Speaker 1: pursuer to get in pursuit. So we've just got to
Speaker 1: recognize that that the dynamic that might be happening in
Speaker 1: our relationship. Adrian was very kind with some of the
Speaker 1: things that he has said about me, and I hope
Speaker 1: that most of it's true, but we've definitely had our
Speaker 1: distance to pursue a dynamic. There's really valid reasons why
Speaker 1: Adrian withdraws and shuts down in conflict that make a
Speaker 1: lot of sense to me. But likewise, there's very valid
Speaker 1: reasons from my early life why I pursue conflict and
Speaker 1: why I don't want to leave things undone. And I
Speaker 1: think that's a very very important thing for people to understand,
Speaker 1: is that there's a reason why, there's a reason behind it.
Speaker 1: And the most beautiful thing that I see really come
Speaker 1: about that when we unpack the distance.
Speaker 2: The pursuer dynamic is.
Speaker 1: The pursuer is actually trying to restore connection, and the
Speaker 1: distance is actually trying to preserve the connection that's there
Speaker 1: without making it get any worse. So it's so beautiful
Speaker 1: when people actually and see we're after the same thing,
Speaker 1: we're just trying to do it in a different way.
Speaker 1: That's a really helpful thing for people to understand. Try
Speaker 1: not to get caught up in the dynamic that exists there,
Speaker 1: and remember that you're trying to go for the same goal,
Speaker 1: which is that connection.
Speaker 4: I've never heard that described.
Speaker 3: Like that, and I've never so just as a just
Speaker 3: as on a work level, do you use those terms
Speaker 3: like this? It's a pursuer dynamic with your clients, do
Speaker 3: you is that? And that doesn't that doesn't push them
Speaker 3: away going off this is too bloody weird.
Speaker 5: But by the time you're introducing those terms, you know,
Speaker 5: you've got pretty good the poor with them, and the
Speaker 5: process in which we take them through is very gentle,
Speaker 5: you know. And it's it's not blaming you don't You
Speaker 5: don't point things at anyone.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's important.
Speaker 5: Non it's confrontational in the sense that we do have
Speaker 5: to elicit emotions out of people and help them through those,
Speaker 5: but non confrontational so far as it's non blaming. So
Speaker 5: when we reach that time where we're talking about those
Speaker 5: types of terms, so for example, they already know what
Speaker 5: that means, the background about we've developed a very good
Speaker 5: before and whatnot, so they.
Speaker 2: Usually and it's quite validating for them.
Speaker 1: I think it's really so many people are like, oh,
Speaker 1: so this is a thing.
Speaker 5: I'm like, yep, right.
Speaker 3: The way I understand it now is exactly what I
Speaker 3: was sort of referring to with my mum and dad before,
Speaker 3: just going, here's me pursuing an emotional connection and then distancing,
Speaker 3: going we want to keep our connection, so don't rattle
Speaker 3: the cat.
Speaker 2: Just nice, we don't want to have problems.
Speaker 4: And what I what I was just going to say too,
Speaker 4: just as you were speaking, is that what I also
Speaker 4: love about the work that you both do and the
Speaker 4: therapy work, is you actually don't necessarily need to have
Speaker 4: two the partners in there together. You can actually change
Speaker 4: their relationship just by one person. And I think that's
Speaker 4: sometimes what people forget that they go, I can't get
Speaker 4: my partner to come with me to relationship therapy and
Speaker 4: while while it may fast track it and be better,
Speaker 4: just you can actually make a difference in the relationship. Yeah,
Speaker 4: once you discover the needs of yourself and perhaps the
Speaker 4: needs of your partner through doing the work with you guys.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I think that. Yeah, we've got
Speaker 1: two businesses, so Motivating Minds we do a lot of
Speaker 1: individual therapy and they're Motivating Marriages, which is our sister
Speaker 1: company that grew out, and Motivating Minds is where we
Speaker 1: do all our couple and parenting work. And so definitely,
Speaker 1: if people are aware that they're struggling into personally so
Speaker 1: with relationships, be it with their partner, their children, colleagues, friendships,
Speaker 1: they can definitely see an individual psychologist and do some
Speaker 1: phenomenal work and learning about themselves and relationships and develop
Speaker 1: the skills they need to become more interpersonally affective in
Speaker 1: their relationship.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Great, Oh we could talk forever. This is so interesting,
Speaker 4: but we do need to get to that. We do
Speaker 4: need to get to the shower.
Speaker 6: Honey, you're ready for the shower, you too, So we
Speaker 6: do we do something called a two minute shower, and
Speaker 6: this is where we just ask you a series of
Speaker 6: questions and so keep your answers short one word.
Speaker 4: But if you need a few more words, we allow
Speaker 4: that as well. So we will ask the same question
Speaker 4: to both of you.
Speaker 3: Who's funnier?
Speaker 5: Oh, that's a hard one. We both think we're.
Speaker 2: We're both equally.
Speaker 4: It's a tie.
Speaker 3: Okay, we're having a long a bit of a longer shower.
Speaker 3: How important is humor in a relationship?
Speaker 2: Massively important?
Speaker 4: Yeah, a great agreat. What is your partner's basic philosophy
Speaker 4: in life?
Speaker 5: Carrie's is to love pretty much, love everyone, forgive people
Speaker 5: and see people for who they are, not just for good,
Speaker 5: but also they're not so great as well, and to
Speaker 5: exit accepting Yeah, and sums you want?
Speaker 1: Yeah, agents I think would be if you're going to
Speaker 1: do something, do it right and do it well. Yeah.
Speaker 3: What what what do you miss when you're not together?
Speaker 5: I'm carry Carry is a very big presence, but you
Speaker 5: wouldn't know that outside of the home. But she's really
Speaker 5: big present in our in our marriage, and when she's
Speaker 5: not there, it's just I just miss you. He's just
Speaker 5: not there, And yeah, just missed a lot about her, actually, yeah.
Speaker 1: Probably miss the comfort and safety of Adrian. He's very
Speaker 1: stable and very comfortable and safe. World feels safe with him.
Speaker 5: Yes.
Speaker 4: Nice. What the world needs more of is.
Speaker 1: People really seeing and knowing one another on a deep
Speaker 1: empathic level.
Speaker 5: That's pretty much.
Speaker 3: Just ask another question just as on that, what what
Speaker 3: part does technology and do you see a part for
Speaker 3: phones and things like that in that getting to know
Speaker 3: each other really well?
Speaker 5: It's definitely a distraction, huge distraction. And when one of
Speaker 5: the workshops we run the Seven Principles for Making Marriage
Speaker 5: Work and actually has a section on the to help
Speaker 5: couples to water against that because it is a problem.
Speaker 3: Is that chapter call put a bloody phone down.
Speaker 2: And I think it creates such a false illusion.
Speaker 1: I think that's my heartache when it comes to anything
Speaker 1: social media, like, there's just such a false illusion. Even
Speaker 1: the stories you hear of people's heartaches usually has like
Speaker 1: this filter around it, whereas you know, at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, we're all just quite vulnerable and messy
Speaker 1: and we've got heartache, we've got pain, and it would
Speaker 1: be nice to just be real about that.
Speaker 3: There's a song in that. I'm going to write that down.
Speaker 4: I'll ask still ask the last question you can ask you, Okay,
Speaker 4: last question describe each other in one word, Oh, you
Speaker 4: can take more, It's okay.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's denacious is one that comes to mind really
Speaker 5: extremely care of go for So you want something, you'll
Speaker 5: just go for it. There's no stopping it. One word.
Speaker 2: It has to be too beautiful heart Ah.
Speaker 4: I love that. Thank you so much Adrian and Kerrie
Speaker 4: for your time. That was so so interesting and you've
Speaker 4: clearly got a lot of knowledge and clearly the kindness
Speaker 4: of who you both are come shining through and the
Speaker 4: way you talk, the way you talk about your clients
Speaker 4: and the work that you do. So thank you so
Speaker 4: much for this chat.
Speaker 2: Thanks pleasure, Thank you for having it.
Speaker 5: Thank you.
Speaker 3: That was fantastic.
Speaker 4: Did it sounded like you had a lot of personal
Speaker 4: a lot of personal things sort of get.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I'm back on the therapy train.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: So I'm actually diving into some things.
Speaker 4: And okay, that's where some of those questions were coming from, right.
Speaker 3: They're just things of things have sort of just a
Speaker 3: bit up for me in that way, and so it
Speaker 3: was just lovely to speak. And one of the things
Speaker 3: that's been I guess pointed out to me is after
Speaker 3: doing therapy for many years is how much I hide
Speaker 3: behind labels.
Speaker 4: And oh, okay, that makes sense when you're asking those questions.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's like, well, what does that actually mean?
Speaker 3: You know, I'm like, oh, well this and this, and
Speaker 3: therapist is like yeah, but that seems like a bit
Speaker 3: of gobbledy goop and I'm like, oh shit, right. So
Speaker 3: it's really been great for me to get to the
Speaker 3: true kernel of what it is that I'm feeling. And
Speaker 3: that's when I that's when I said, you know about fear,
Speaker 3: going wow, I still live with a whole lot of fear,
Speaker 3: so I'm unraveling that for myself. So but when she
Speaker 3: talked when they mentioned the distance pursuer dynamic, oh god,
Speaker 3: need another I don't need another label to describe something,
Speaker 3: right though, what she was what they were actually describing,
Speaker 3: was quite brilliant in that, you know, chasing someone's running
Speaker 3: away from someone who's trying to actually pursue depth. And
Speaker 3: I think we can have a long chat about this afterwards,
Speaker 3: because I reckon we're prime candidates in our own way
Speaker 3: for it, which is great. I'll do't mind opening up
Speaker 3: that that can of worms with you, because at the
Speaker 3: end of the day, what I do know from our
Speaker 3: work together and our therapy and our chats that we
Speaker 3: always are way closer as a result. It's worth it.
Speaker 3: It's worth it the pain of going I have to
Speaker 3: talk about this, Yes we do.
Speaker 4: It's always worse afterwards. And I love the thing, you know,
Speaker 4: just those small things that they said about, you know,
Speaker 4: what difference can we make in our relationships?
Speaker 5: Now?
Speaker 4: It was small things often six second kiss.
Speaker 3: Which we did the other day. Yes, I know, and
Speaker 3: I haven't spoken about it. Is my gotman, honey. It
Speaker 3: was so sweet and I.
Speaker 4: Loved it and how are you? And functional conflict as well,
Speaker 4: all of those I know that's another label, but they
Speaker 4: did explain it. No, they explained it really well, just
Speaker 4: just the gentleness of understanding conflict and where it comes from.
Speaker 4: And so it's to me that was like I don't
Speaker 4: call names, you know what I mean, Like, it was
Speaker 4: just being able to have conflict but make it functional
Speaker 4: so you don't end up more torn apart than where
Speaker 4: you started. So that's the way I took it though.
Speaker 4: They just there was just a simplicity to how they
Speaker 4: were talking about relationships and therapy and it was just
Speaker 4: really beautiful.
Speaker 3: I agree, And the fact that they said that humor
Speaker 3: is a big part of it, and I often will
Speaker 3: lead into a joke to not feel what's actually going
Speaker 3: on though. The humor is a good thing. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 3: as long as it's not a power leak.
Speaker 4: Yeah you know, or used to push away correct Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's good. What a great way to start
Speaker 3: the year. Yes, for those of us desiring relationship, for
Speaker 3: those dealing with the end of a relationship, what great
Speaker 3: information to have at the beginning of the year when
Speaker 3: you're setting goals.
Speaker 4: Or and again if you're single or you know, wh
Speaker 4: where can you use it with yours at work, or
Speaker 4: your or your best friend or you just need to
Speaker 4: be a lover? Yeah yeah, so it fits in everywhere.
Speaker 3: I hope you enjoyed it. Listener. I hope you enjoyed
Speaker 3: this episode. And because I certainly didn't, got lot out
Speaker 3: of it. I think that we are we listen and
Speaker 3: more six second kisses, more small things often, and more
Speaker 3: State of the Union speeches or not speeches conversations.
Speaker 4: That's right, Barack Obama, here we come.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So until next time on separate bathrooms, please please
Speaker 3: be kind to each other and be safe.
Speaker 4: Thanks for listening.