Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 2: This week, as we work on new episodes for you,
Speaker 2: we're bringing you some of our favorites from the past year,
Speaker 2: and this episode about Donald Trump's plans to write the
Speaker 2: next chapter in US space flight history is one of them.
Speaker 3: We will pursue our manifest Destiny into the Stars, launching
Speaker 3: American astronauts to plant the stars and stripes on the
Speaker 3: planet Mars.
Speaker 2: Trump says he wants to get the first humans to
Speaker 2: land on Mars before he leaves office.
Speaker 4: My plan, I'll talk to Elin get those rocket ships going,
Speaker 4: because we want to reach Mars before the end of
Speaker 4: my term.
Speaker 1: We want to do it.
Speaker 2: It's an ambitious goal, one that has already reshaped America's
Speaker 2: space program, with billions being redirected towards it. Today, reporter
Speaker 2: at the Wall Street Journal Emily Glazer on what has
Speaker 2: happened behind the scenes at NASA and the role Elon
Speaker 2: Musk played in it all. It's Monday, January five, is
Speaker 2: part one of a two pot interview that we originally
Speaker 2: published in April. Emily, you were watching as Donald Trump
Speaker 2: announced that he wanted to plant a flag on Mars.
Speaker 2: So can you describe to me what it was like
Speaker 2: to hear him say that.
Speaker 1: You know, I was actually at the World Economic Forum
Speaker 1: atop the Swiss Mountains in Davos, Switzerland, And I am
Speaker 1: not saying that as a humble brag. I swear I'm
Speaker 1: saying that because there are a lot of space related
Speaker 1: panels and programming there and different government space officials from
Speaker 1: all over the world, and so it was a really
Speaker 1: interesting place to be, as President Trump was during his inauguration,
Speaker 1: but also to go to these various space events, and
Speaker 1: people were just floored. They were so excited. Multiple different people,
Speaker 1: the head of the European Space Agency and the head
Speaker 1: of the Japanese Space Agency, he both sat on the
Speaker 1: record and interviews that it was akin to when JFK
Speaker 1: talked about getting men on the Moon. I mean, this
Speaker 1: was like a moment, and many in the space community
Speaker 1: were very excited. They also wanted to get in on it.
Speaker 1: I had the head of, you know, the Japanese Space
Speaker 1: Agency talk about all the work Japan was doing in
Speaker 1: researching minerals in Mars, and the European Space Agency was
Speaker 1: talking about all of the collaboration, and then a whole
Speaker 1: bunch of different space companies that were on the ground
Speaker 1: there trying to kind of make a name for themselves.
Speaker 1: So I think that was when we were sort of like, oh,
Speaker 1: now that President Trump is putting it in his inaugural
Speaker 1: address is a very big deal and something that the
Speaker 1: White House may be prioritizing.
Speaker 4: And so when you heard Trump talk about mos, did
Speaker 4: you immediately think about Alon?
Speaker 1: I think about Elon a lot, It's part of my job,
Speaker 1: but absolutely I did. I mean, look, the Wall Street
Speaker 1: Journal first broke the store worry about how Elon Musk
Speaker 1: and Donald Trump had talked about Musk being an advisor
Speaker 1: should Trump win. And so the relationship between Elon Musk
Speaker 1: and Donald Trump has been on my mind for more
Speaker 1: than a year. We wrote the article about Elon giving
Speaker 1: roughly forty five million dollars a month toward reelecting President Trump.
Speaker 1: And part of the reason, you know, why I was
Speaker 1: working on this is the fruits of Elon's labors are
Speaker 1: coming home to roost. And so when I heard that
Speaker 1: in the inaugural address, the first thing that I thought
Speaker 1: of was, Wow, Elon's influence. This is big time.
Speaker 4: And Donald Trump recently announced his pick to take over
Speaker 4: leading the Space Agency NASA, a billionaire entrepreneur named Jared Isaacman.
Speaker 4: So what do we know about him?
Speaker 1: Jared is an astronaut, and so he knows a lot
Speaker 1: about space. He has experience, of course in space actually
Speaker 1: like flying himself. And Elon Musk and to Isaacman have
Speaker 1: known each other for years.
Speaker 5: I mean, I've been a you know, an aviation in
Speaker 5: space enthusiast since Wilson's kindergarten. And you know, I thought,
Speaker 5: you know, becoming an astronaut you a better chance of
Speaker 5: getting struck by lightning. So I had this parallel career
Speaker 5: in aviation.
Speaker 1: Jared was an astronaut on SpaceX flights. The two we
Speaker 1: know have hung out socially, and they've even given to
Speaker 1: charitable causes together. And so far, everybody that I and
Speaker 1: my colleagues have talked to have said that Isaacman, while
Speaker 1: he's not like necessarily a traditional choice, you know, prior
Speaker 1: to Asset administrator, Jim Bridenstein was a congressman beforehand, we've
Speaker 1: largely heard very positive things about Jared. Jared is someone
Speaker 1: who really believes in exploring space, and a number of
Speaker 1: people have actually shared that he is very risk tolerant,
Speaker 1: to the point where we heard that even some people
Speaker 1: at SpaceX have been worried in years past his level
Speaker 1: of risk, more so than the company itself.
Speaker 5: My top agenda, what I'm incredibly passionate about, is the
Speaker 5: competitiveness of our nation. You know, we started leading in
Speaker 5: this new domain. We have to continue to do so.
Speaker 1: So for example, on one mission that he flew, he
Speaker 1: wanted to go at a higher altitude and that worried
Speaker 1: some people within SpaceX, and he kind of pushed for it,
Speaker 1: and they ended up flying at that higher altitude. They
Speaker 1: were worried about kind of like debris space debris, and
Speaker 1: he got his way. And so I found it really
Speaker 1: interesting that he is someone that is open to risks,
Speaker 1: and maybe that's part of what fuels this friendship with
Speaker 1: Elon Musk. But it was very interesting when we learned
Speaker 1: that Elon had actually called Jared on the phone to
Speaker 1: offer him the NASA position.
Speaker 4: And so do we know anymore about that phone call
Speaker 4: between Musk and Asakin and what was said and then
Speaker 4: I suppose what happened immediately afterwards.
Speaker 1: So we know that this phone call happened late last
Speaker 1: year and that Elon called Jared with a request, and
Speaker 1: it was basically, would Jared become the head of NASA,
Speaker 1: and part of Elon's pitch to Jared was that they
Speaker 1: could make NASA great again and work toward their shared
Speaker 1: ambition of getting humans to Mars. Our understanding is that
Speaker 1: that was something that really sat well with Jared, and
Speaker 1: soon after the call, Trump announced that Jared was appointed
Speaker 1: NASA administrator.
Speaker 2: Trump intends to put tech billionaire and entrepreneur Jared Isacman
Speaker 2: in charge of the government space agency.
Speaker 1: Isaac One's appointment could shake up the race for a man.
Speaker 4: Okay, so we have this very risk tolerant billionaire astronaut
Speaker 4: announced as the next head of NASA. We're still waiting
Speaker 4: for his confirmation and for him to begin at that role.
Speaker 4: But tell me about what's been happening behind the scenes
Speaker 4: at NASA since the Trump administration came to power.
Speaker 1: So I've been kind of thinking about this in a
Speaker 1: few different ways. One is that Elon Musk is installing
Speaker 1: loyalists as heads or key roles of crucial agencies that
Speaker 1: impact the ability to get to Mars. Obviously, that phone
Speaker 1: call with Jared is, like, you know, a huge example
Speaker 1: of that. He also has been behind the scenes navigating
Speaker 1: how to change federal spending, so to get to programs
Speaker 1: that are related to Mars. And then he also has
Speaker 1: doge where he has access to you know, technology systems, personnel, budgets,
Speaker 1: and has just tons of information. So there's been a
Speaker 1: lot that Elon has been doing behind the scenes to
Speaker 1: re order a number of NASA's programs. President Trump puts out,
Speaker 1: you know, this announcement that Jared is appointed NASA Administrator
Speaker 1: and then NASA staff on January thirty first got an
Speaker 1: email that we reviewed from the agency's acting administrator, Janet Petro.
Speaker 1: So she's the person who is lee NASA until there
Speaker 1: is a confirmed NASA administrator. And they welcomed a new
Speaker 1: senior advisor and it was a longtime SpaceX executive named
Speaker 1: Michael Altenhoffen who had worked at SpaceX for like fifteen years.
Speaker 1: And while he was at SpaceX, he also became close
Speaker 1: to Isaacman and talks to Isaacman frequently. And he took
Speaker 1: up this position right away ahead of the confirmation hearing.
Speaker 1: And the way that it was described to us is
Speaker 1: that he is basically shadowing the acting administrator. And that's
Speaker 1: just one more person who has ties to Elon Musk,
Speaker 1: who is now already at NASA even before Jared is confirmed.
Speaker 4: So as Musk wants to spait off the timeline to
Speaker 4: get to MAS, what would it take to get there?
Speaker 4: That's off to the break. So Emily, can we talk
Speaker 4: a bit more about Elon Musk and his relationship to MARS.
Speaker 4: I mean, he's spoken about it a lot in the past,
Speaker 4: you know, his vision for humanity to get there, So
Speaker 4: tell me a bit about the backstory here and how
Speaker 4: he's framing this new push.
Speaker 1: So Elon Musk founded SpaceX more than twenty years ago
Speaker 1: in two thousand and two, and the mission was to
Speaker 1: take humanity to other planets. That has totally infused SpaceX's
Speaker 1: culture with that long term goal, and SpaceX was on
Speaker 1: the brink of failure many different times. It completed a
Speaker 1: successful launch of its first rocket in two thousand and eight,
Speaker 1: after having failures beforehand.
Speaker 5: We have the Doctor SpaceX Falcon one launch pulled the
Speaker 5: Falcon How's.
Speaker 1: Clear of the tower, and it eventually developed the Falcon
Speaker 1: nine rocket and that could be partially reused. So this
Speaker 1: was a game changer in the space industry because it
Speaker 1: lowered the cost of launches and it also took the
Speaker 1: market share from incumbent rocket operators, especially a really large
Speaker 1: company like Boeing. Over the years, Elon has talked about
Speaker 1: Mars all the time, and he also talks a lot
Speaker 1: about multiplanetary life.
Speaker 3: Staship is the first rocket that has the potential to
Speaker 3: make life multiplanetary, to make us a multi planet civilization
Speaker 3: for the first time.
Speaker 1: And he envisions a world or universe. I guess I
Speaker 1: should say where there's civilization on Mars. It even got
Speaker 1: to the point where just recently SpaceX brought back these
Speaker 1: astronauts to turn them from space. It was like a
Speaker 1: huge success for SpaceX and something that was seen around
Speaker 1: the world. And Elon Musk had an interview with Fox
Speaker 1: News and as he was being interviewed and asked about
Speaker 1: all of this, he started talking about Mars and just
Speaker 1: didn't want to stop.
Speaker 3: We are going to be able to take Aschronaltz to Mars.
Speaker 3: In fact, we want to take anyone who goes to
Speaker 3: Mars and ultimately build a self sustaining civilization on Mars.
Speaker 3: That is the long term goal of the company, make
Speaker 3: life healthy planetary.
Speaker 4: And I mean, what would it actually take to make
Speaker 4: something like that reality. What is it like on Mars?
Speaker 4: And what would it take to actually set up a
Speaker 4: colony there?
Speaker 1: Ooh, those are big questions. I mean, I will say
Speaker 1: in terms of actually getting to Mars, just to break
Speaker 1: this down a little bit, it can take roughly a
Speaker 1: week to get to the Moon and back. It could
Speaker 1: take an estimated two to three years for a round
Speaker 1: trip between Earth and Mars. So let's just start there. Like,
Speaker 1: this is going to take a very long time. What
Speaker 1: some people had mentioned to me is like the clock
Speaker 1: is ticking because if Musk fields like he has this
Speaker 1: four years while President Trump is in office to try
Speaker 1: to accomplish this goal, that a number of people in
Speaker 1: the space community, both on the commercial side and government
Speaker 1: side across the world were kind of skeptical if that
Speaker 1: could happen. And then let's just talk about the cost.
Speaker 1: I mean, I talk to people that said, even if
Speaker 1: you take all of the various costs of different programs
Speaker 1: that NASA has, and if you redirected everything, so this
Speaker 1: is like tens of billions of dollars, that still wouldn't
Speaker 1: be enough. And so there are also questions of if
Speaker 1: Musk is able to shift some of the federal spending
Speaker 1: toward Mars, would he also have to self fund some
Speaker 1: of it, and we are talking about the richest man
Speaker 1: of the world, so in some ways, the sky's the limit.
Speaker 4: So everything about this seems incredibly ambitious, expensive, time consuming.
Speaker 4: Why do you think it is that Musk wants it
Speaker 4: so much to be able to build a.
Speaker 1: Colony on mass When I have talked to people close
Speaker 1: to Musk, they've told me that his ultimate ambition is
Speaker 1: to get to Mars, and that for his legacy, it's
Speaker 1: not about having power, it's not about having money, it's
Speaker 1: not about having influence. All those things are nice benefits
Speaker 1: that he is enjoying. He wants to be the person
Speaker 1: that can get people to Mars. In terms of why
Speaker 1: he wants to make life multiplanetary, I think that he
Speaker 1: feels like there should be other options besides planet Earth,
Speaker 1: so that in case there are you know, more natural
Speaker 1: disasters or other issues, that there are other options. And
Speaker 1: I think he, along with a lot of people in
Speaker 1: Silicon Valley and elsewhere, hope that they can live a
Speaker 1: really long time, and so I think he's thinking into
Speaker 1: the future, you know, generations of where will humans live
Speaker 1: if Earth continues at the rate that we're going at.
Speaker 2: Listen to part two of our interview with Emily Glazer
Speaker 2: called how a lone Musk will benefit from NASA's Mars
Speaker 2: plans is in your faith.
Speaker 1: Now, there's this program at NASA that is known as Artemis,
Speaker 1: and it's a long range plan to explore the Moon
Speaker 1: and eventually Mars. And one idea that we know Musk
Speaker 1: and government officials have talked about is a scenario where
Speaker 1: SpaceX would give up its Moon focused partamis contracts that
Speaker 1: are worth more than four billion dollars, and that would
Speaker 1: kind of shift the money behind the scenes and also
Speaker 1: frankly benefit SpaceX, which is the private space company that
Speaker 1: Elon Mask runs.