WEBVTT - Australia’s energy debate goes nuclear

0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:08.479
<v Speaker 1>You can listen to the Front on your smart speaker

0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:12.760
<v Speaker 1>every morning to hear the latest episode. Just say play

0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:26.599
<v Speaker 1>the news from the Australian. From the Australian, Here's what's

0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:30.160
<v Speaker 1>on the Front. I'm Kristin Amiot. It's Thursday, June twentieth.

0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:37.960
<v Speaker 1>Lisa Wilkinson is headed back to court. Wilkinson claimed the

0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:41.120
<v Speaker 1>judge in the deformation action brought by Bruce Laman against

0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:44.800
<v Speaker 1>Wilkinson and her employer Network ten made more than fifty

0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:48.360
<v Speaker 1>mistakes in his judgment handed down in April. You can

0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:50.960
<v Speaker 1>read that story right now at the Australian dot com

0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:58.760
<v Speaker 1>dot au. Anti Semitic attacks are ratcheting up across Melbourne,

0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:03.240
<v Speaker 1>but local police aren't treating them as related incidents. Victoria

0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:06.720
<v Speaker 1>Police confirmed no dedicated task force has been established in

0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:09.480
<v Speaker 1>response to a spate of attacks that have occurred since

0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:13.080
<v Speaker 1>a deadly invasion of Israel by Hamas on October seven.

0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:16.640
<v Speaker 1>The revelation comes after Vandal's set fire to the Saint

0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:19.759
<v Speaker 1>Kilda office of Jewish MP Josh Burns in the early

0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:28.280
<v Speaker 1>hours of Wednesday morning. Peter Dutton has vowed to establish

0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:31.840
<v Speaker 1>publicly owned nuclear power reactors at seven sites around the

0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:35.400
<v Speaker 1>nation if the Coalition wins the next election not too

0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:38.319
<v Speaker 1>far away. The federal government responded in real time at

0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:42.480
<v Speaker 1>the Australian's Energy Nation Forum in Sydney, and the position

0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:47.240
<v Speaker 1>of Treasurer Jim Chalmers couldn't be more clear. In today's episode,

0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:50.560
<v Speaker 1>we're bringing you excerpts of the fiery and fascinating conversations

0:01:50.600 --> 0:02:06.560
<v Speaker 1>heard over the course of the day.

0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:11.040
<v Speaker 2>We know that the government has a renewables only policy

0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:12.440
<v Speaker 2>which is just not fifth purpose.

0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:17.240
<v Speaker 1>This is Peter Dutton sending the energy debate nuclear.

0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:19.919
<v Speaker 2>No other country in the world can keep the lights

0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:22.400
<v Speaker 2>on twenty four to seven with the renewables only policy.

0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:26.120
<v Speaker 2>We need to make sure that hospitals can stay on

0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:28.200
<v Speaker 2>twenty four to seven. We need to make sure that

0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:31.040
<v Speaker 2>cold rooms can stay on twenty four seven. We need

0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:33.800
<v Speaker 2>to make sure that our economy can function twenty four

0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:36.240
<v Speaker 2>to seven, and we can only do that with a

0:02:36.280 --> 0:02:37.560
<v Speaker 2>strong baseload power.

0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:41.840
<v Speaker 1>In Sydney on Wednesday, the opposition leader made a major

0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:45.720
<v Speaker 1>announcement about the coalition's long term energy plans and it's

0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:47.800
<v Speaker 1>something we can expect to hear a lot about in

0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:51.160
<v Speaker 1>the run up to the next federal election. Nuclear power.

0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:55.480
<v Speaker 1>It comes just days after mister Dutton unveiled a radically

0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:59.320
<v Speaker 1>newsstands on energy policy that could see the government's legislated

0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:03.080
<v Speaker 1>twenty thirty the emissions productions targets scrapped if his party

0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:07.360
<v Speaker 1>wins government. Just down the road. At the Australian's Energy

0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:11.080
<v Speaker 1>Nation Forum in Sydney, Treasurer at Jim Chalmers didn't mince

0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:11.760
<v Speaker 1>his words.

0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:15.919
<v Speaker 3>Today we are expecting to hear a bit more about

0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:20.640
<v Speaker 3>the coalition's nuclear road to nowhere. Nothing could be more

0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:27.040
<v Speaker 3>economically irrational or fiscally irresponsible. It might be the dumbest

0:03:27.320 --> 0:03:32.040
<v Speaker 3>policy ever put forward by a major political party. It

0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:37.640
<v Speaker 3>is the worst combination of economic and ideological stupidity. And

0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:40.400
<v Speaker 3>to make matters worse, our opponents would tear up the

0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:44.560
<v Speaker 3>twenty thirty targets that give investors the certainty that they need.

0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:48.920
<v Speaker 1>The Energy Nation Forum brought together major players and thinkers

0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:53.400
<v Speaker 1>in the energy sector, from politicians and policy makers to CEOs,

0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:57.360
<v Speaker 1>regulators and engineers. One of them was Shadow Minister for

0:03:57.400 --> 0:04:00.560
<v Speaker 1>Climate Change and Energy Ted O'Brien, fresh out of the

0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:02.960
<v Speaker 1>press conference where the nuclear announcement was.

0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:07.240
<v Speaker 4>Made, Hello, everybody has a nice fee with you, and

0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:10.520
<v Speaker 4>sorry my fault. The Diaries changed. It's only because Nick

0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:13.480
<v Speaker 4>and other Use Cork journalist kept us in questions at

0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:14.240
<v Speaker 4>a press conference.

0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:18.159
<v Speaker 1>What the coalition is proposing is this a mix of

0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:22.320
<v Speaker 1>smaller modular nuclear reactors and full size facilities will be

0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:25.400
<v Speaker 1>built on the sites of existing power stations from Queensland

0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:29.640
<v Speaker 1>to New South Wales and Western Australia. Those potential locations

0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:33.640
<v Speaker 1>are Queensland's Collide Power Station and Tarrong power Station, New

0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:37.080
<v Speaker 1>South Wales Old Ladell power Station and Mount Piper Power Station,

0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:41.760
<v Speaker 1>Victoria's Latroe Valley, Western Australia's Collie Power Station and South

0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:46.760
<v Speaker 1>Australia's Northern Power Station. Mister Dutton stopped short of a

0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:49.839
<v Speaker 1>commitment to release the financial details of the nuclear power

0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:53.240
<v Speaker 1>plan before the next election, and O'Brien echoed that.

0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:55.880
<v Speaker 4>Position they will be released in due course.

0:04:56.480 --> 0:05:00.320
<v Speaker 1>The Australians Resources reporter Nick Evans pressed O'Brien on.

0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:04.160
<v Speaker 2>This, will you going to the next election presenting the

0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:05.839
<v Speaker 2>Australian people with a cost and plan?

0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:07.960
<v Speaker 1>So Nick, a couple of things.

0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:11.840
<v Speaker 4>Firstly, you're right, Peter made it very clear today that

0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:16.400
<v Speaker 4>we're not releasing information today on the costs, on the economics.

0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:22.240
<v Speaker 4>We contained today's conversation really to be about the locations,

0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:25.599
<v Speaker 4>the community benefits, the process and so forth. I won't

0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:28.200
<v Speaker 4>go further than that in this conversation today.

0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:32.599
<v Speaker 1>One of the government's biggest criticisms of nuclear power is

0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:35.839
<v Speaker 1>how long it'll take to become operational. Even if the

0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:38.640
<v Speaker 1>Coalition was to put its nuclear power plan into motion

0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:41.159
<v Speaker 1>on its first day in government, if it wins the

0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:45.279
<v Speaker 1>next election, power from those nuclear generators wouldn't be available

0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:48.839
<v Speaker 1>for about a decade, maybe longer. And that's assuming the

0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:53.160
<v Speaker 1>legislation sails through Parliament and the Greens are deeply opposed.

0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:57.400
<v Speaker 1>But as coal fire power stations are retired, the government

0:05:57.440 --> 0:05:59.200
<v Speaker 1>of the day will be under pressure to keep the

0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:02.200
<v Speaker 1>lights on in how households and businesses around the country.

0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:04.279
<v Speaker 1>Here's Nick Evans.

0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:06.440
<v Speaker 2>What happens in that gap period?

0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:07.440
<v Speaker 1>How is that covered?

0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:10.960
<v Speaker 4>Gas? Gas?

0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:14.479
<v Speaker 1>It's the one thing the two major parties can agree upon.

0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:18.360
<v Speaker 1>Labor likes gas to prop up renewables, the Coalition likes

0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:21.640
<v Speaker 1>it to prop up nuclear. Let me unpack a bit

0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:25.760
<v Speaker 1>of jargon for you energy botens. Talk about base load power.

0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:29.800
<v Speaker 1>That's the major power stations operating traditionally on fossil fuels

0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:33.560
<v Speaker 1>like coal and sometimes gas and in future on sources

0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:37.800
<v Speaker 1>like wind and hydro. Then there's peaking power plants that

0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:40.200
<v Speaker 1>can be turned on when demand is high, like in

0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:42.880
<v Speaker 1>winter at five PM, when everybody in the country turns

0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:45.839
<v Speaker 1>the heater on at the same time. That's why gas

0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:49.200
<v Speaker 1>is also useful in so called peaking plants that kick

0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:52.320
<v Speaker 1>in when there's a huge strain on the grid.

0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:56.080
<v Speaker 4>If you look at the fact that yet ninety percent

0:06:56.880 --> 0:07:00.240
<v Speaker 4>a base load power exits the greed in ten years,

0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:04.240
<v Speaker 4>there is Buckley's chance that labor is going to be

0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:08.240
<v Speaker 4>able to build out its renewables plan in time, so

0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:12.760
<v Speaker 4>we're running out. So basically we don't support premature closure

0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:15.480
<v Speaker 4>on base load power stations. But as they do come

0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:19.080
<v Speaker 4>out of the grid, then we will see zero mission's

0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:23.160
<v Speaker 4>nuclear energy coming into the grid. So will we need

0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:27.280
<v Speaker 4>more renewables yes, will we need more gas yes? And

0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:31.080
<v Speaker 4>as coal comes out, nuclear comes in. The risk is

0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:33.960
<v Speaker 4>the lights going out. That's the big risk. And as

0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:38.640
<v Speaker 4>part of that, it's recognizing the importance of a source

0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:41.720
<v Speaker 4>of twenty four to seven based load power. Coal has

0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:44.920
<v Speaker 4>done that historically for Australia. As we look to the future,

0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:47.480
<v Speaker 4>I believe it'll be zero emission's nuclear energy.

0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:47.680
<v Speaker 2>That does it.

0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:51.080
<v Speaker 1>O'Brien said it might look like a gamble now, but

0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:53.720
<v Speaker 1>the vision would come into focus in the coming months.

0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:57.560
<v Speaker 1>As for our plan, you're also right in saying, Nick,

0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:01.080
<v Speaker 1>you didn't hear today, and that is because today we

0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:05.800
<v Speaker 1>haven't released our renewables policy, we haven't released our gas policy,

0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:09.600
<v Speaker 1>we haven't released other aspects of our policy, and so

0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:13.640
<v Speaker 1>you'll have to forgive me that we're not revealing all today.

0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:17.280
<v Speaker 1>We've come out with a large part of our policy

0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:19.680
<v Speaker 1>with respect twenty four to seven base load power, in

0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:23.240
<v Speaker 1>particular zero missius nuclear energy, as we have been doing

0:08:23.280 --> 0:08:25.520
<v Speaker 1>it similar to two years now. We've been very open

0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:28.600
<v Speaker 1>with the Australian people and we will continue to be open,

0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:33.960
<v Speaker 1>but we haven't revealed our entire policy today. Coming up,

0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:37.000
<v Speaker 1>the Minister for Climate Change and Energy, Chris Bowen, sits

0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:43.560
<v Speaker 1>down with The Australian's chief political correspondent, Jeff Chambers. Subscribers

0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:45.800
<v Speaker 1>to The Australian get access to special events like this

0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:48.640
<v Speaker 1>one all year round, as well as breaking news alerts,

0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:52.480
<v Speaker 1>newsletters and lively commentary and analysis. Check us out at

0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:55.080
<v Speaker 1>the Australian dot com dot au and we'll be back

0:08:55.120 --> 0:09:13.480
<v Speaker 1>after this break. Chris Bowen is Labour's most fiery performer.

0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:17.800
<v Speaker 1>He's a political warrior. Remember in the election of twenty

0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:20.720
<v Speaker 1>nineteen when he told voters who didn't like Labour's policy

0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:23.640
<v Speaker 1>not to vote for them. True to form, when he

0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:26.320
<v Speaker 1>took to the stage at the Australian's Energy Nation Forum

0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:29.960
<v Speaker 1>in Sydney on Wednesday, Bowen dialed Labour's criticism of the

0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:34.320
<v Speaker 1>coalition's new nuclear energy policy up to eleven. He was

0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:37.760
<v Speaker 1>asked by The Australian's chief political correspondent, Jeff Chambers if

0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:40.200
<v Speaker 1>Labour's missing a trick by breaking from the US and

0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:43.320
<v Speaker 1>the UK in choosing not to embrace nuclear power.

0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:47.800
<v Speaker 5>And I hear this said, I'll wrestle worlds doing nuclear well. Actually,

0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:52.560
<v Speaker 5>the world is adding more renewable capacity every couple of

0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:55.839
<v Speaker 5>weeks than it is in a year of nuclear capacity.

0:09:56.320 --> 0:09:59.960
<v Speaker 5>There is absolutely no comparison. All the world is adding

0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:04.960
<v Speaker 5>many more multiples of renewable capacity than those countries that

0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:08.200
<v Speaker 5>are adding some nuclear. So it's a first ye to

0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:11.120
<v Speaker 5>say the world's moving to nuclear. The world is adding many,

0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:14.400
<v Speaker 5>many more gigawatts of renewable on any time period you

0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:17.520
<v Speaker 5>choose to mention than nuclear.

0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:21.640
<v Speaker 1>Bowen clarified that he's not actually opposed to nuclear power

0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:24.240
<v Speaker 1>in principle. He just doesn't think it's the right fit

0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:26.080
<v Speaker 1>for Australia's energy transition.

0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:31.239
<v Speaker 5>That's not a moral or philosophical objection. It is a practical,

0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:36.280
<v Speaker 5>evidence based rejection for Australia. It is not the right

0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:39.280
<v Speaker 5>answer for Australia. Obviously, I interact with a lot of

0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:41.760
<v Speaker 5>ministry or counterparts around the world, even those who are

0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:43.760
<v Speaker 5>contemplating nuclear so to me, wouldn't be doing it if

0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:44.719
<v Speaker 5>I had your renewals.

0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:48.360
<v Speaker 1>On the topic of the day, the coalition's freshly minted

0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:51.640
<v Speaker 1>nuclear power plan, Bowen didn't hold back.

0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:56.360
<v Speaker 5>No costings, no modeling, not even a number of megawats

0:10:56.400 --> 0:10:58.640
<v Speaker 5>or gigwats. And they haven't even confirmed that they will

0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:01.000
<v Speaker 5>release those things pre election. They say in due course.

0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:02.920
<v Speaker 5>And when asked will it be pre or post election,

0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:04.480
<v Speaker 5>they say indue course.

0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:05.160
<v Speaker 1>Jeff.

0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:09.480
<v Speaker 5>If with that in opposition, you would tear us apart,

0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:13.640
<v Speaker 5>and you would be right to Our credibility would be

0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:16.320
<v Speaker 5>shredded on the front page, not just of your newspaper,

0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:18.319
<v Speaker 5>but if the others as well.

0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:25.800
<v Speaker 1>Bowen pointed out that the majority of the possible nuclear

0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:29.319
<v Speaker 1>sides identified by the opposition. Five of the seven are

0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:33.280
<v Speaker 1>situated in states where nuclear power is banned. If the

0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:35.880
<v Speaker 1>coalition is dead set on pushing ahead with the plan,

0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:39.560
<v Speaker 1>and as it currently stands, a lengthy legal process would

0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:43.400
<v Speaker 1>be required to overturn those bands, potentially blowing out Dutton's

0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:49.040
<v Speaker 1>already ambitious timelines. Just as his opposition counterpart arrived at

0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:52.240
<v Speaker 1>the Energy Nation Forum from a press conference, the Climate

0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:54.800
<v Speaker 1>Change and Energy Minister dashed out to a presser of

0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:58.520
<v Speaker 1>his own after his conversation with Jeff Chambers ended. There,

0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:01.439
<v Speaker 1>he implored Australian voters is to stay the course at

0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:02.200
<v Speaker 1>the next election.

0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:07.000
<v Speaker 5>So what we know is that nuclear power is risky.

0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:11.679
<v Speaker 5>It's risky because it undermines investment in renewable energy. It's

0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:14.920
<v Speaker 5>risky because it means relying on aging coal fire power

0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:19.280
<v Speaker 5>stations for longer. It's risky because it would mean relying

0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:24.079
<v Speaker 5>on coal fire power, which is increasingly unreliable, for longer

0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:27.360
<v Speaker 5>than we otherwise need to. We know that nuclear is

0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:31.320
<v Speaker 5>too expensive, too slow to build, and too risky for

0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:35.320
<v Speaker 5>energy reliability. Now, the alternative is to stick with the

0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:38.680
<v Speaker 5>plan to get to eighty two percent renewables. To stick

0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:41.160
<v Speaker 5>with the plan for the cheapest form of energy, which

0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:44.839
<v Speaker 5>is renewables. Plan for cheaper bills, Not more expensive energy

0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:48.160
<v Speaker 5>that's slow to build, but renewable energy that can be

0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:51.880
<v Speaker 5>delivered more quickly and more cheaply than this nuclear fantasy,

0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:55.120
<v Speaker 5>this scam that mister Dutton is trying to sell to

0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:56.000
<v Speaker 5>the straighted people.

0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:06.160
<v Speaker 1>You can read our experts analysis of all the action

0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:09.040
<v Speaker 1>from the Energy Nation Forum right now at the Australian

0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:10.280
<v Speaker 1>dot com dot au