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Speaker 1: You can listen to the Front on your smart speaker

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Speaker 1: every morning to hear the latest episode. Just say play

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Speaker 1: the news from the Australian. From the Australian, Here's what's

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Speaker 1: on the Front. I'm Kristin Amiot. It's Thursday, June twentieth.

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Speaker 1: Lisa Wilkinson is headed back to court. Wilkinson claimed the

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Speaker 1: judge in the deformation action brought by Bruce Laman against

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Speaker 1: Wilkinson and her employer Network ten made more than fifty

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Speaker 1: mistakes in his judgment handed down in April. You can

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Speaker 1: read that story right now at the Australian dot com

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Speaker 1: dot au. Anti Semitic attacks are ratcheting up across Melbourne,

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Speaker 1: but local police aren't treating them as related incidents. Victoria

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Speaker 1: Police confirmed no dedicated task force has been established in

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Speaker 1: response to a spate of attacks that have occurred since

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Speaker 1: a deadly invasion of Israel by Hamas on October seven.

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Speaker 1: The revelation comes after Vandal's set fire to the Saint

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Speaker 1: Kilda office of Jewish MP Josh Burns in the early

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Speaker 1: hours of Wednesday morning. Peter Dutton has vowed to establish

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Speaker 1: publicly owned nuclear power reactors at seven sites around the

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Speaker 1: nation if the Coalition wins the next election not too

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Speaker 1: far away. The federal government responded in real time at

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Speaker 1: the Australian's Energy Nation Forum in Sydney, and the position

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Speaker 1: of Treasurer Jim Chalmers couldn't be more clear. In today's episode,

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Speaker 1: we're bringing you excerpts of the fiery and fascinating conversations

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Speaker 1: heard over the course of the day.

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Speaker 2: We know that the government has a renewables only policy

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Speaker 2: which is just not fifth purpose.

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Speaker 1: This is Peter Dutton sending the energy debate nuclear.

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Speaker 2: No other country in the world can keep the lights

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Speaker 2: on twenty four to seven with the renewables only policy.

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Speaker 2: We need to make sure that hospitals can stay on

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Speaker 2: twenty four to seven. We need to make sure that

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Speaker 2: cold rooms can stay on twenty four seven. We need

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Speaker 2: to make sure that our economy can function twenty four

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Speaker 2: to seven, and we can only do that with a

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Speaker 2: strong baseload power.

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Speaker 1: In Sydney on Wednesday, the opposition leader made a major

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Speaker 1: announcement about the coalition's long term energy plans and it's

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Speaker 1: something we can expect to hear a lot about in

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Speaker 1: the run up to the next federal election. Nuclear power.

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Speaker 1: It comes just days after mister Dutton unveiled a radically

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Speaker 1: newsstands on energy policy that could see the government's legislated

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Speaker 1: twenty thirty the emissions productions targets scrapped if his party

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Speaker 1: wins government. Just down the road. At the Australian's Energy

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Speaker 1: Nation Forum in Sydney, Treasurer at Jim Chalmers didn't mince

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Speaker 1: his words.

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Speaker 3: Today we are expecting to hear a bit more about

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Speaker 3: the coalition's nuclear road to nowhere. Nothing could be more

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Speaker 3: economically irrational or fiscally irresponsible. It might be the dumbest

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Speaker 3: policy ever put forward by a major political party. It

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Speaker 3: is the worst combination of economic and ideological stupidity. And

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Speaker 3: to make matters worse, our opponents would tear up the

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Speaker 3: twenty thirty targets that give investors the certainty that they need.

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Speaker 1: The Energy Nation Forum brought together major players and thinkers

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Speaker 1: in the energy sector, from politicians and policy makers to CEOs,

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Speaker 1: regulators and engineers. One of them was Shadow Minister for

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Speaker 1: Climate Change and Energy Ted O'Brien, fresh out of the

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Speaker 1: press conference where the nuclear announcement was.

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Speaker 4: Made, Hello, everybody has a nice fee with you, and

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Speaker 4: sorry my fault. The Diaries changed. It's only because Nick

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Speaker 4: and other Use Cork journalist kept us in questions at

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Speaker 4: a press conference.

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Speaker 1: What the coalition is proposing is this a mix of

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Speaker 1: smaller modular nuclear reactors and full size facilities will be

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Speaker 1: built on the sites of existing power stations from Queensland

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Speaker 1: to New South Wales and Western Australia. Those potential locations

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Speaker 1: are Queensland's Collide Power Station and Tarrong power Station, New

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Speaker 1: South Wales Old Ladell power Station and Mount Piper Power Station,

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Speaker 1: Victoria's Latroe Valley, Western Australia's Collie Power Station and South

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Speaker 1: Australia's Northern Power Station. Mister Dutton stopped short of a

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Speaker 1: commitment to release the financial details of the nuclear power

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Speaker 1: plan before the next election, and O'Brien echoed that.

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Speaker 4: Position they will be released in due course.

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Speaker 1: The Australians Resources reporter Nick Evans pressed O'Brien on.

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Speaker 2: This, will you going to the next election presenting the

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Speaker 2: Australian people with a cost and plan?

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Speaker 1: So Nick, a couple of things.

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Speaker 4: Firstly, you're right, Peter made it very clear today that

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Speaker 4: we're not releasing information today on the costs, on the economics.

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Speaker 4: We contained today's conversation really to be about the locations,

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Speaker 4: the community benefits, the process and so forth. I won't

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Speaker 4: go further than that in this conversation today.

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Speaker 1: One of the government's biggest criticisms of nuclear power is

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Speaker 1: how long it'll take to become operational. Even if the

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Speaker 1: Coalition was to put its nuclear power plan into motion

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Speaker 1: on its first day in government, if it wins the

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Speaker 1: next election, power from those nuclear generators wouldn't be available

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Speaker 1: for about a decade, maybe longer. And that's assuming the

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Speaker 1: legislation sails through Parliament and the Greens are deeply opposed.

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Speaker 1: But as coal fire power stations are retired, the government

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Speaker 1: of the day will be under pressure to keep the

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Speaker 1: lights on in how households and businesses around the country.

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Speaker 1: Here's Nick Evans.

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Speaker 2: What happens in that gap period?

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Speaker 1: How is that covered?

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Speaker 4: Gas? Gas?

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Speaker 1: It's the one thing the two major parties can agree upon.

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Speaker 1: Labor likes gas to prop up renewables, the Coalition likes

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Speaker 1: it to prop up nuclear. Let me unpack a bit

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Speaker 1: of jargon for you energy botens. Talk about base load power.

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Speaker 1: That's the major power stations operating traditionally on fossil fuels

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Speaker 1: like coal and sometimes gas and in future on sources

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Speaker 1: like wind and hydro. Then there's peaking power plants that

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Speaker 1: can be turned on when demand is high, like in

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Speaker 1: winter at five PM, when everybody in the country turns

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Speaker 1: the heater on at the same time. That's why gas

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Speaker 1: is also useful in so called peaking plants that kick

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Speaker 1: in when there's a huge strain on the grid.

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Speaker 4: If you look at the fact that yet ninety percent

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Speaker 4: a base load power exits the greed in ten years,

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Speaker 4: there is Buckley's chance that labor is going to be

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Speaker 4: able to build out its renewables plan in time, so

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Speaker 4: we're running out. So basically we don't support premature closure

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Speaker 4: on base load power stations. But as they do come

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Speaker 4: out of the grid, then we will see zero mission's

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Speaker 4: nuclear energy coming into the grid. So will we need

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Speaker 4: more renewables yes, will we need more gas yes? And

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Speaker 4: as coal comes out, nuclear comes in. The risk is

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Speaker 4: the lights going out. That's the big risk. And as

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Speaker 4: part of that, it's recognizing the importance of a source

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Speaker 4: of twenty four to seven based load power. Coal has

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Speaker 4: done that historically for Australia. As we look to the future,

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Speaker 4: I believe it'll be zero emission's nuclear energy.

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Speaker 2: That does it.

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Speaker 1: O'Brien said it might look like a gamble now, but

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Speaker 1: the vision would come into focus in the coming months.

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Speaker 1: As for our plan, you're also right in saying, Nick,

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Speaker 1: you didn't hear today, and that is because today we

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Speaker 1: haven't released our renewables policy, we haven't released our gas policy,

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Speaker 1: we haven't released other aspects of our policy, and so

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Speaker 1: you'll have to forgive me that we're not revealing all today.

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Speaker 1: We've come out with a large part of our policy

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Speaker 1: with respect twenty four to seven base load power, in

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Speaker 1: particular zero missius nuclear energy, as we have been doing

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Speaker 1: it similar to two years now. We've been very open

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Speaker 1: with the Australian people and we will continue to be open,

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Speaker 1: but we haven't revealed our entire policy today. Coming up,

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Speaker 1: the Minister for Climate Change and Energy, Chris Bowen, sits

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Speaker 1: down with The Australian's chief political correspondent, Jeff Chambers. Subscribers

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Speaker 1: to The Australian get access to special events like this

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Speaker 1: one all year round, as well as breaking news alerts,

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Speaker 1: newsletters and lively commentary and analysis. Check us out at

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Speaker 1: the Australian dot com dot au and we'll be back

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Speaker 1: after this break. Chris Bowen is Labour's most fiery performer.

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Speaker 1: He's a political warrior. Remember in the election of twenty

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Speaker 1: nineteen when he told voters who didn't like Labour's policy

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Speaker 1: not to vote for them. True to form, when he

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Speaker 1: took to the stage at the Australian's Energy Nation Forum

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Speaker 1: in Sydney on Wednesday, Bowen dialed Labour's criticism of the

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Speaker 1: coalition's new nuclear energy policy up to eleven. He was

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Speaker 1: asked by The Australian's chief political correspondent, Jeff Chambers if

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Speaker 1: Labour's missing a trick by breaking from the US and

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Speaker 1: the UK in choosing not to embrace nuclear power.

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Speaker 5: And I hear this said, I'll wrestle worlds doing nuclear well. Actually,

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Speaker 5: the world is adding more renewable capacity every couple of

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Speaker 5: weeks than it is in a year of nuclear capacity.

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Speaker 5: There is absolutely no comparison. All the world is adding

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Speaker 5: many more multiples of renewable capacity than those countries that

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Speaker 5: are adding some nuclear. So it's a first ye to

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Speaker 5: say the world's moving to nuclear. The world is adding many,

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Speaker 5: many more gigawatts of renewable on any time period you

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Speaker 5: choose to mention than nuclear.

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Speaker 1: Bowen clarified that he's not actually opposed to nuclear power

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Speaker 1: in principle. He just doesn't think it's the right fit

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Speaker 1: for Australia's energy transition.

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Speaker 5: That's not a moral or philosophical objection. It is a practical,

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Speaker 5: evidence based rejection for Australia. It is not the right

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Speaker 5: answer for Australia. Obviously, I interact with a lot of

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Speaker 5: ministry or counterparts around the world, even those who are

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Speaker 5: contemplating nuclear so to me, wouldn't be doing it if

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Speaker 5: I had your renewals.

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Speaker 1: On the topic of the day, the coalition's freshly minted

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Speaker 1: nuclear power plan, Bowen didn't hold back.

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Speaker 5: No costings, no modeling, not even a number of megawats

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Speaker 5: or gigwats. And they haven't even confirmed that they will

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Speaker 5: release those things pre election. They say in due course.

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Speaker 5: And when asked will it be pre or post election,

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Speaker 5: they say indue course.

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Speaker 1: Jeff.

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Speaker 5: If with that in opposition, you would tear us apart,

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Speaker 5: and you would be right to Our credibility would be

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Speaker 5: shredded on the front page, not just of your newspaper,

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Speaker 5: but if the others as well.

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Speaker 1: Bowen pointed out that the majority of the possible nuclear

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Speaker 1: sides identified by the opposition. Five of the seven are

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Speaker 1: situated in states where nuclear power is banned. If the

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Speaker 1: coalition is dead set on pushing ahead with the plan,

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Speaker 1: and as it currently stands, a lengthy legal process would

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Speaker 1: be required to overturn those bands, potentially blowing out Dutton's

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Speaker 1: already ambitious timelines. Just as his opposition counterpart arrived at

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Speaker 1: the Energy Nation Forum from a press conference, the Climate

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Speaker 1: Change and Energy Minister dashed out to a presser of

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Speaker 1: his own after his conversation with Jeff Chambers ended. There,

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Speaker 1: he implored Australian voters is to stay the course at

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Speaker 1: the next election.

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Speaker 5: So what we know is that nuclear power is risky.

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Speaker 5: It's risky because it undermines investment in renewable energy. It's

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Speaker 5: risky because it means relying on aging coal fire power

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Speaker 5: stations for longer. It's risky because it would mean relying

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Speaker 5: on coal fire power, which is increasingly unreliable, for longer

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Speaker 5: than we otherwise need to. We know that nuclear is

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Speaker 5: too expensive, too slow to build, and too risky for

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Speaker 5: energy reliability. Now, the alternative is to stick with the

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Speaker 5: plan to get to eighty two percent renewables. To stick

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Speaker 5: with the plan for the cheapest form of energy, which

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Speaker 5: is renewables. Plan for cheaper bills, Not more expensive energy

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Speaker 5: that's slow to build, but renewable energy that can be

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Speaker 5: delivered more quickly and more cheaply than this nuclear fantasy,

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Speaker 5: this scam that mister Dutton is trying to sell to

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Speaker 5: the straighted people.

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Speaker 1: You can read our experts analysis of all the action

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Speaker 1: from the Energy Nation Forum right now at the Australian

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Speaker 1: dot com dot au