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Speaker 1: Approach production.

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Speaker 2: For the record. I'm don't trying to make you uncomfortable

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Speaker 2: for the record. You ain't trying to grow downy stuff

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Speaker 2: for your for the record, laugh on me going all

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Speaker 2: the way way for the record. Ain't trying to link,

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Speaker 2: No trying to waste for the record, for the record,

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Speaker 2: for the for the record, for the right, for the

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Speaker 2: ready record.

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Speaker 1: For the record.

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Speaker 2: I don't try and make you uncomfortable.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back, another fantastic episode coming up today. Guys, this

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Speaker 3: gentleman thirty years as a crime journalist. This man has

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Speaker 3: ventured into some places that people would never dream of.

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Speaker 3: He has walked beside some of the most notorious crime

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Speaker 3: figures in this country and also overseas a wealth of

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Speaker 3: knowledge and experience beyond. But first of all, I want

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Speaker 3: to take a moment to say thank you to every

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Speaker 3: one of you people out there who continue to download.

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Speaker 3: I cannot tell you how awesome it is almost coming

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Speaker 3: up to that six million after this season. Six million

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Speaker 3: downloads over four and a half years. What a journey

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Speaker 3: it's been. Two hundred and twenty plus guests. Thank you,

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Speaker 3: every one of my guests. Thank you to the sponsors

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Speaker 3: in the past sideway surf that was with us for years,

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Speaker 3: and to anybody else who has got on board. Without

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Speaker 3: further ado, I'm going to introduce today's guests because we've

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Speaker 3: got a lot to talk about.

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Speaker 1: Adam shand welcome to the clink. Thank you, bred mate.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna be honest with you.

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Speaker 3: Out of all my guess, I've had many from all

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Speaker 3: walks of lives along the similar lines of yourself that

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Speaker 3: you've walked close to and been in the company of

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Speaker 3: some notorious gang members, some very influential people in the

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Speaker 3: world of the underworld. But I have never had somebody

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Speaker 3: with the experience like yourself thirty years of journalism in

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Speaker 3: criminality and meeting people like myself who have lived that

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Speaker 3: life for many, many years. Not that I live that

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Speaker 3: life anymore, but definitely was in very, very deep with

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Speaker 3: it for well well over half my life. So today

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Speaker 3: is going to be a very interesting and informative one

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Speaker 3: and I cannot wait to start to dissect it all

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Speaker 3: because it really is something that I don't know anybody

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Speaker 3: else could actually sit down with and have these type

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Speaker 3: of conversations.

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Speaker 4: The amazing thing for me is that if you told

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Speaker 4: me twenty years ago whenever I was around the motorcycle

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Speaker 4: club scene that I've been sitting here being interviewed by

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Speaker 4: a former member who actually was from that scene, you know,

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Speaker 4: because it was so hard to get people to talk

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Speaker 4: and there was such a mistrust of the media.

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Speaker 1: We were just a rung below the police, really, And so.

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Speaker 4: I think it's gratifying because back in the day everyone

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Speaker 4: was saying, oh, I should go and write a book

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Speaker 4: about my experiences in clubs or in crime, and say, well,

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Speaker 4: I said, well, listen, there's just not enough publishers to

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Speaker 4: publish all these things, and people don't really read books anymore,

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Speaker 4: to be honest. You go into the bookstore, there's hardly

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Speaker 4: any true crime books. Really, it's all crime fiction. But

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Speaker 4: I think to get people's voices out there and to

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Speaker 4: humanize them, I think that's what the Clink has done,

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Speaker 4: you know, let people in an unfiltered way, because for years,

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Speaker 4: people like me crime journalists were like the gatekeepers, and

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Speaker 4: we were shaping how the public would see. And often

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Speaker 4: you would see that the so called crime journalists were

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Speaker 4: actually just police journalists because they were staying very close

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Speaker 4: to their police contacts, getting feeds, staying very close to

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Speaker 4: the political contacts and he's straying away from that. And

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Speaker 4: I've had a decision very early on that I wasn't

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Speaker 4: going to do that and that it was much better

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Speaker 4: to go to the source. My man was a psychiatrist, right,

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Speaker 4: and he always used to tell me we grew up

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Speaker 4: with all kinds of p He used to go to

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Speaker 4: the jails and meet people and assess their fitness to

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Speaker 4: plea and all this type of stuff, and he said,

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Speaker 4: understanding people is more valuable than judgment. And that's kind

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Speaker 4: of been my way through this. And so it's really

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Speaker 4: a pleasure, and I really salute your success in what

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Speaker 4: you've done.

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Speaker 1: Adam.

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Speaker 3: Thank you first of all for that wonderful wording, because

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Speaker 3: it is something that I take a lot of pride in.

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Speaker 3: You know, you very much hit the nail on the head.

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Speaker 3: And I am old school. So there is still a

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Speaker 3: lot that we don't talk about. And that's just how

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Speaker 3: it is. You don't go through these walks in life

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Speaker 3: and think that you're going to go through and disclose

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Speaker 3: the ater's 's because it just doesn't work like that,

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Speaker 3: really it is. There'll be things that will go to

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Speaker 3: the grave of myself and many other members, especially long

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Speaker 3: term members in clubs or anybody that's held positions in clubs.

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Speaker 3: I don't believe that it's ever something that gets discussed

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Speaker 3: entirety outside of the four walls of the club.

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Speaker 1: It's a club life.

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Speaker 3: And respect that and hence me comfortably still being able

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Speaker 3: to respectfully walk around today. And I take that with

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Speaker 3: a lot of honor and gratitudes. But in saying that

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Speaker 3: as well, we do open up a forum. We've opened

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Speaker 3: up a platform by providing The Clink and other podcasts

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Speaker 3: out there for men like myself who most definitely at

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Speaker 3: forty nine years of age, spent well over half my

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Speaker 3: life in and around club life.

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Speaker 1: Jail and.

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Speaker 3: Have realized the realities of the system. And you know,

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Speaker 3: like I to this day, have nothing but utmost respect

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Speaker 3: and love for all brothers that I have a cross

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Speaker 3: path with, well ninety percent of them. There's always a

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Speaker 3: few you won't call a brother ever again, but you know,

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Speaker 3: majority are great men, you know, And I grew up

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Speaker 3: in an era where the men were real men. You

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Speaker 3: didn't just get given a patch, You had to earn

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Speaker 3: the patch, and the club was always bigger than you,

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Speaker 3: and that was something that was always drummed into us

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Speaker 3: as nominees or probates or prospects, whichever you prefer to

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Speaker 3: look at.

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Speaker 1: Never forget that, you know.

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Speaker 3: But at the same time, you see how the government

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Speaker 3: and the system and the world that we live in

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Speaker 3: has changed. And look, to be honest with you, I

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Speaker 3: don't feel that I would fit in today with just

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Speaker 3: the way. Not that I'm bagging or saying anything negative

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Speaker 3: about anybody out there.

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Speaker 1: That's their choice in their life.

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Speaker 3: But I'm old fashioned, and those old fashioned morals and

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Speaker 3: ways tend to drift a little bit from what they

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Speaker 3: should be today. I feel therefore I probably wouldn't be

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Speaker 3: right candidate.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, Look, I think my experience in Clubland, if

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Speaker 4: you like, was that there was a changing of the

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Speaker 4: guard taking place. There was the old school bikers who

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Speaker 4: came from the sixties seventies, and they were really about

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Speaker 4: the brotherhood and about riding motorcycles and that staunchness, you know.

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Speaker 4: And I think as the world has changed, you know,

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Speaker 4: the crime world has changed. I mean back in the day,

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Speaker 4: you know, drugs weren't dominating so much, and there.

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Speaker 1: Was a hierarchy.

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Speaker 4: There were people who were enabling everything from sly grogging

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Speaker 4: to tobacco to girls, to whatever it was, and there

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Speaker 4: was a hierarchy and people work within in structures, whereas

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Speaker 4: with drugs, I think it's every bloke has got a

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Speaker 4: supply as a boss, you know, and there's a lot

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Speaker 4: of people who were using their own product and it

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Speaker 4: gets very hazy, you know. But I guess what I

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Speaker 4: saw looking at the motorcycle club scene. I don't call

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Speaker 4: them gangs by the way they get the most immotive

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Speaker 4: word to use.

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Speaker 1: It lumps them all in.

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Speaker 4: The same category stereotyping, and it doesn't help the understanding

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Speaker 4: at all. So I was comming clubs and some definitely

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Speaker 4: have changed towards that, but I did see them as

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Speaker 4: a former participatory democracy, and I was really entranced by

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Speaker 4: the stories that I was being told about. You know

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Speaker 4: why people joined, and it wasn't because they wanted to.

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Speaker 1: Be a criminal.

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Speaker 4: I mean, they wanted to be rebellious, they wanted to

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Speaker 4: wrap up against the fabric of society, if you like,

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Speaker 4: for various reasons, but also because they found a true fellowship.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think the older guys, just touching on that

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Speaker 3: to Adam is the fact that we were the one percent,

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Speaker 3: We were the shit. We were the you know, and

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Speaker 3: it's very real now having these opportunities to open up

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Speaker 3: and have these conversations, is a lot of men that

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Speaker 3: were a part of club life were broken and hurt

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Speaker 3: men or traumatized men that literally we're just looking for love,

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Speaker 3: I guess brotherhood.

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Speaker 1: And that's not weak in saying that.

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Speaker 3: You know, I had the honor of coming into club

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Speaker 3: life the old school way, you know, and I'd been

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Speaker 3: around it since I was a teenager. But then when

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Speaker 3: the time come naturally, I drifted to doing my my apprenticeship.

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Speaker 1: If you will, and earning my colors. It meant family.

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Speaker 3: I didn't have family, you know, It meant brotherhood, it

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Speaker 3: meant camaraderie. It was really really thick with that many

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Speaker 3: years ago. I don't look, I'm not involved with it now,

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Speaker 3: so I don't comment. But I don't believe that the

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Speaker 3: structure is the same as what it once was. And

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Speaker 3: if it was, then I would probably still be there,

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Speaker 3: you know, if that's how it was. But we see

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Speaker 3: things and we have our reasons and beliefs and morals

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Speaker 3: about certain aspects of things that happen in and around

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Speaker 3: and you know, the perspective from the journalists that put

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Speaker 3: out the stories im and they just fucking love me.

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Speaker 3: They got oh yeah, and you've got to google my

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Speaker 3: name to read the shit that they've written over the

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Speaker 3: last five years or something that I've been fighting that,

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Speaker 3: Please God, in the next week and a half, I'll

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Speaker 3: have an answer to and no case to answer. But

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Speaker 3: that aside is being you know, you don't have to

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Speaker 3: be Einstein to work out the motive behind it was

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Speaker 3: to you know, chip chip and watch something fall apart

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Speaker 3: for them to get what they wanted, and there was

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Speaker 3: nothing to be got. So at the end of the day,

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Speaker 3: it's just how the system is and how the system works.

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Speaker 3: But on that yeah, I feel that, you know, you

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Speaker 3: can't go labeling everybody in a club a bad person.

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Speaker 1: It's not that way at all.

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Speaker 3: And you of all people have truly gotten to be

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Speaker 3: close to club life and some very very powerful people

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Speaker 3: both in underworld end also club life, And I mean,

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Speaker 3: there's no real difference. Suppose both same similar structures and

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Speaker 3: hierarchy and what have you. Obviously certain aspects of it

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Speaker 3: do certain things that are unethically correct.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but you know, I mean I think I did

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Speaker 4: see a distinct difference between clubs and say the underworld

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Speaker 4: that i'd been immersed in with Carl Williams and Andrew

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Speaker 4: Venyuman and Tony Mockbell and those of the guys who

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Speaker 4: they were there solely for profit and to build their

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Speaker 4: influence and their.

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Speaker 1: Base and so forth.

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Speaker 4: Whereas if I was going to become a crook, I

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Speaker 4: wouldn't necessarily join a motorcycle club because you have a

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Speaker 4: very obvious place of association. You wear a uniform, everyone

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Speaker 4: can see, you make a loud noise. You are going

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Speaker 4: to attract plenty of attention, and they do.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: I think when you look at today's scene now there's

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Speaker 4: like forty plus clubs in Australia, I think, and you

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Speaker 4: really only hear of like four or five, you know,

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Speaker 4: And I think, you know, and in some cases it's

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Speaker 4: quite justified they've gone into crime and so forth, but

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Speaker 4: you've also got equally. One of my favorite clubs actually

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Speaker 4: is a single chapter club an Adelaide called the Descendants.

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Speaker 4: It was started by a couple of New Zealanders in

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Speaker 4: the seventies, two brothers, Perry and Tom Mack.

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Speaker 3: Yes, they reported, aren't they they're five o ones they're

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Speaker 3: about to become They got deported they did.

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Speaker 4: In fact, you can hear Tom's last interview in Australia

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Speaker 4: on my show Real Crime with Adam Shann coming up

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Speaker 4: and the fight that he put up. But that club,

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Speaker 4: that was a really good example because they come from Auckland,

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Speaker 4: tough town, you know. And Tommy used to say that

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Speaker 4: he never won a fight until he got to Australia

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Speaker 4: because back then there were the parting all the Mary's

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Speaker 4: and the tough guys over there, and it was hairless.

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Speaker 4: But and they'd read the Hunter s. Thompson of Bikey's,

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Speaker 4: Hell's Angel and Rebel without a Cause, and they started

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Speaker 4: to adopt the kind of dress and the modes of

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Speaker 4: the sort of outlaws one percentage whatever, and you know,

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Speaker 4: like the Hell's Angels in the sixties, they drifted towards

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Speaker 4: heroin trafficking and the police went through the club like

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Speaker 4: a doos assaults and they all went through jail, a.

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Speaker 1: Bunch of them. When they came out, they got like,

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Speaker 1: this is for the birds.

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Speaker 4: You know, we joined to enjoy the motorcycle and the

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Speaker 4: camaraderie around that, and here we are acting like crooks.

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Speaker 4: So they went back to the motorcycle, got into speedway,

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Speaker 4: and it was all about that, and the criminal element

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Speaker 4: kind of filtered out of the club over time, yet

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Speaker 4: they're still regarded as one percent, never take a backwards step,

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Speaker 4: very staunch. And I really enjoyed their company because they

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Speaker 4: were real men, you know, and they welcome me and

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Speaker 4: I used to love going their club, you know.

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Speaker 1: And you'd also have other people going there as well.

254
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Speaker 4: You'd have bandits, you'd have angels, you know, all kinds

255
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Speaker 4: of people dropping because they were like on neutral ground

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Speaker 4: and they were older guy gypsy jokers in particular.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the amount of.

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Speaker 4: Super high quality conversations at two or three or four

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Speaker 4: in the morning, when you got a skin full of piss,

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Speaker 4: you know, you go like, yeah, actually I remember some

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Speaker 4: of them really vividly, you know. And there was one

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Speaker 4: story that had various versions of why, you know, when

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Speaker 4: we join a club, it was usually like, you know,

264
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Speaker 4: dad was absent or in jail or abusive or had

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Speaker 4: step father. One of my favorites was like, there was

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Speaker 4: one guy who used to say, my stepfather used to

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Speaker 4: bash my mother, you know, all the time, and I'd

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Speaker 4: cop it. If I said a word, I'd just cop

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Speaker 4: it as well. He's a big guy. So one Christmas

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Speaker 4: days he's had a crack at mum. So I've gone

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Speaker 4: on the garden. She'd got a spade and cracked him

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Speaker 4: across the head. Went to juvenile Justice, met people who

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Speaker 4: were connected with clubs and so forth, and found a

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Speaker 4: place where they could belong and actually, for better or worse,

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Speaker 4: have someone who actually influenced them on their ethics and values,

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Speaker 4: you know, because young men totally need that. And I

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Speaker 4: know your story, and you know you needed that the

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Speaker 4: abuse that you suffered, and you know, I was so

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Speaker 4: lucky to grow up in a really nice family in Sydney.

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Speaker 5: We never had to worry about that. Everything was you know,

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Speaker 5: private schools at the rest of it, you know. And

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Speaker 5: and I guess early on I started to look at

283
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Speaker 5: the other side. I went to My first job out

284
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Speaker 5: of school was to go and work in the mines

285
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Speaker 5: in the Northern Territory and a matter of a bunch

286
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Speaker 5: of guys there who are all kinds of connections, and

287
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Speaker 5: I started to see other ways of living and stopping

288
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Speaker 5: that judgment and seeing how important it was to have

289
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Speaker 5: that fraternity.

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Speaker 1: And I think even today young men are going.

291
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Speaker 4: Off the rails, not just in clubs, we see the

292
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Speaker 4: amount of people who are bashing their wives, who are

293
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Speaker 4: doing stupid things, getting involved in assassin for higher type stuff,

294
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Speaker 4: and you know, you go like, what are you doing?

295
00:15:29,441 --> 00:15:31,881
Speaker 4: You know, for five K or something, You're going to

296
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Speaker 4: knock some poor bastard life.

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Speaker 1: Life is worth nothing these days.

298
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Speaker 3: And it's I look, I'd be very careful about my

299
00:15:40,241 --> 00:15:44,121
Speaker 3: choice of words here, obviously, but I feel the way

300
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Speaker 3: things are happening, and what is happening.

301
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Speaker 1: I get it.

302
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Speaker 3: I not even nor stupid to what's what's happening below

303
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Speaker 3: the mainstream. But the brazenness and the fact that you know,

304
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Speaker 3: innocent people, women, children, just man, that's let's go back

305
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Speaker 3: to the days where if there was issues, we'd all

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Speaker 3: sit at the table. You'd have you know, your present,

307
00:16:08,961 --> 00:16:10,921
Speaker 3: your sergeant, whatever, We'd nut out a plan.

308
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Speaker 1: Whoever was in the wrong, we'd come to a solution,

309
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Speaker 1: rather than clubs go to war.

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Speaker 3: Certain factors play out because of circumstances. Might be money

311
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Speaker 3: issues could be whatever it might be. Today it's just

312
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Speaker 3: not a there's a stack who wants it. And it

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00:16:31,721 --> 00:16:33,641
Speaker 3: might be like you said, five grand could be ten,

314
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Speaker 3: could be twenty third. Back in the day, you'd want

315
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Speaker 3: to have at least half a mil before you even

316
00:16:37,881 --> 00:16:40,761
Speaker 3: started talking. What's the value of life? I mean, we

317
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Speaker 3: just see what happened in Sydney this week, you know.

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Speaker 3: Innocent people again taken out obviously, and I once again

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Speaker 3: be very careful about how I put this out there.

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Speaker 3: But really, you get that close to someone you're supposed

321
00:16:54,041 --> 00:16:55,721
Speaker 3: to put to sleep and then all of a sudden,

322
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Speaker 3: once again, second time around, you can't get the job done.

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Speaker 1: Wow, that's a little bit well. I would hate to

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Speaker 1: have been the bloke that paid them to do it.

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Speaker 4: I hate to bring up the Sydney Melbourne rivalry, but

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Speaker 4: our assassin's down here have always been a lot more

327
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Speaker 4: jacked up, a lot more professional.

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Speaker 1: Oh they're very quick and very efficient.

329
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Speaker 4: There's only ever been in my knowledge one innocent Byastownder

330
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Speaker 4: that ever copped anything. Was unfortunately a little boy during

331
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Speaker 4: the painters and dockers wore down here. But otherwise they

332
00:17:22,961 --> 00:17:25,521
Speaker 4: do get the job done. I remember, oh, Billy Longley,

333
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Speaker 4: Billy the text them Longley, one of the painters and

334
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Speaker 4: dockers of the you know, and he was talking about

335
00:17:29,681 --> 00:17:32,281
Speaker 4: Carl Williams team when they were knocking off the Morans,

336
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Speaker 4: and the fact that they were getting people at the

337
00:17:34,120 --> 00:17:36,721
Speaker 4: football or getting people in their cars and different homes

338
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Speaker 4: and whatever. And he said, you know, these things send

339
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Speaker 4: a very strong message that these people are very serious

340
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Speaker 4: and you can be got anywhere you like. Absolutely, you're vulnerable.

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Speaker 1: Yep. Yeah, And so.

342
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Speaker 4: I think people have to be very very careful not

343
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Speaker 4: to get involved in stinks, you know. I remember one

344
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:57,640
Speaker 4: thing I was a part of for on the sidelines

345
00:17:57,681 --> 00:18:00,321
Speaker 4: of there was a dispute between two clubs about the

346
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Speaker 4: positioning of tattoo parlors.

347
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Speaker 1: And it came down to it like they.

348
00:18:05,201 --> 00:18:08,360
Speaker 4: Had the street directory out and they said, you can't

349
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Speaker 4: be east of this certain road.

350
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Speaker 1: You've got to be over there.

351
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Speaker 4: And there was argibarji, there was some money changed hands,

352
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Speaker 4: but they sorted it out.

353
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Speaker 1: That's that was what I was saying, Yeah, go to

354
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Speaker 1: the tail, that's right.

355
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Speaker 4: Yeah, And I thought that was a really interesting and

356
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Speaker 4: people I just don't believe that it happens like that,

357
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Speaker 4: So it's interesting. I think it has changed a lot.

358
00:18:28,721 --> 00:18:30,761
Speaker 4: I think there are still clubs out there who have

359
00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,801
Speaker 4: those rules. Granted they're probably the older blokes who are

360
00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:35,880
Speaker 4: hanging on the old cave men who were still in

361
00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:38,880
Speaker 4: the clubs because you know, and their life members or

362
00:18:38,921 --> 00:18:41,321
Speaker 4: whatever else. But some clubs are I remember speaking to

363
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:45,120
Speaker 4: one very senior president who said, Mate, my club's changed

364
00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:45,600
Speaker 4: so much.

365
00:18:46,001 --> 00:18:47,480
Speaker 1: I can't pronounce half the names.

366
00:18:47,721 --> 00:18:50,080
Speaker 4: I don't know what to put on the barbie anymore,

367
00:18:49,761 --> 00:18:52,761
Speaker 4: that drink, you know that. You know, they often don't

368
00:18:52,761 --> 00:18:54,361
Speaker 4: know how to ride their bikes, you know, this sort

369
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:56,840
Speaker 4: of stuff. So it's in a state of flux. But

370
00:18:56,921 --> 00:18:58,720
Speaker 4: the biggest thing I think is to deal with the

371
00:18:58,801 --> 00:19:03,161
Speaker 4: fear that the public has because media and police see,

372
00:19:03,201 --> 00:19:06,921
Speaker 4: police always want bigger and more powers and they never

373
00:19:06,921 --> 00:19:10,001
Speaker 4: give them back. Right, So whenever the politicians spark up

374
00:19:10,041 --> 00:19:13,600
Speaker 4: with like a moral panic type situation, bikis are.

375
00:19:13,481 --> 00:19:16,201
Speaker 1: Coming over the hill, they're getting bigger, they get they're

376
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,200
Speaker 1: not getting any bigger than the ever were, you know.

377
00:19:18,801 --> 00:19:21,761
Speaker 4: And my minentary to the whole thing was in South

378
00:19:21,761 --> 00:19:24,681
Speaker 4: Australia when the government there decided to bring in anti

379
00:19:24,681 --> 00:19:29,681
Speaker 4: association laws because the presumption was the clubs only exist

380
00:19:29,921 --> 00:19:32,241
Speaker 4: to commit crime. There was none of this tough stuff

381
00:19:32,241 --> 00:19:34,440
Speaker 4: we've been talking about. It's all about that. So if

382
00:19:34,521 --> 00:19:36,801
Speaker 4: you can stop them talking to each other, you'll stop

383
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,920
Speaker 4: the crime, which was just patently false and we had

384
00:19:40,001 --> 00:19:44,761
Speaker 4: the parallel with the consorting laws in the fifties and sixties, which.

385
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:46,521
Speaker 1: Where cops got too much power.

386
00:19:46,521 --> 00:19:49,640
Speaker 4: You get people like Roger Rogerson and others down here

387
00:19:49,721 --> 00:19:52,841
Speaker 4: who suddenly became really powerful because they could consort this

388
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,360
Speaker 4: one and use the other one as an informer. So

389
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,201
Speaker 4: you had to start to work with the fuzz to survive.

390
00:19:58,761 --> 00:20:02,920
Speaker 4: So I thought this would work, and it didn't. I mean,

391
00:20:02,961 --> 00:20:04,561
Speaker 4: the clubs that I was hanging around with, they had

392
00:20:04,561 --> 00:20:06,840
Speaker 4: a queue up the street of young men who wanted

393
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:07,281
Speaker 4: to join.

394
00:20:07,681 --> 00:20:10,120
Speaker 1: And the more that you know, the media parodied this

395
00:20:10,241 --> 00:20:13,561
Speaker 1: line about oh, you know, the new mafia on wheels,

396
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:14,721
Speaker 1: and la la la.

397
00:20:14,921 --> 00:20:17,201
Speaker 4: It just made it more and more attractive and actually

398
00:20:17,241 --> 00:20:20,440
Speaker 4: drought them together. Because what I saw was amazing was

399
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:24,120
Speaker 4: these clubs that were supposedly, you know, at each other's throats,

400
00:20:24,120 --> 00:20:27,600
Speaker 4: we're very happy to sit down in the United Motorcycle Councils,

401
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:28,401
Speaker 4: you remember those.

402
00:20:28,281 --> 00:20:31,721
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely well. I technically that was two thousand and nine.

403
00:20:31,761 --> 00:20:34,000
Speaker 3: I think it was two thousand and eight. Two thousand

404
00:20:34,001 --> 00:20:35,801
Speaker 3: and nine they started to bring those laws in and

405
00:20:35,801 --> 00:20:40,440
Speaker 3: then obviously in Queensland after the Broadbeach incident that then

406
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,041
Speaker 3: forced the hand and you know, we had, for example,

407
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:45,801
Speaker 3: the Finkx up here that I think were the first

408
00:20:45,801 --> 00:20:49,761
Speaker 3: club to engage in law to be able to prevent

409
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,480
Speaker 3: that ruling, which then, you know, as we both know,

410
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:57,241
Speaker 3: change the whole demographic of things once that all sort

411
00:20:57,241 --> 00:20:59,521
Speaker 3: of fell into place, well it didn't.

412
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Speaker 1: It was funny because here all these so called outlaws in.

413
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,600
Speaker 4: The High Court, they go to them, many of them

414
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,960
Speaker 4: are very even out laws anymore, you know, you go

415
00:21:09,001 --> 00:21:11,161
Speaker 4: to the High Court, and actually because I just felt

416
00:21:11,201 --> 00:21:15,001
Speaker 4: that those laws were repugnant to anybody who'd had a

417
00:21:15,001 --> 00:21:18,240
Speaker 4: criminal record, you know, that they could now suddenly no

418
00:21:18,321 --> 00:21:20,801
Speaker 4: longer associate with people on license premises and so and

419
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,401
Speaker 4: so forth, you know, and it was just not right.

420
00:21:23,521 --> 00:21:24,921
Speaker 1: So that was my starting point.

421
00:21:24,961 --> 00:21:26,360
Speaker 4: I think it's always like there was a bit of

422
00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:28,080
Speaker 4: a misnoment that I was like, oh, I was soft

423
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:31,080
Speaker 4: on bikers and I was deluded in La la la.

424
00:21:31,241 --> 00:21:32,721
Speaker 4: But you know, I was saying that that's not it's

425
00:21:32,721 --> 00:21:36,041
Speaker 4: not what that's about. It's about saying, understand the nature

426
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,680
Speaker 4: of crime and will this actually do any good? Because

427
00:21:39,721 --> 00:21:42,720
Speaker 4: my argument always was that yes, it's attractive to suddenly

428
00:21:42,761 --> 00:21:47,880
Speaker 4: have biker squads, you know, these dedicated teams, which you know,

429
00:21:47,921 --> 00:21:50,161
Speaker 4: would go after biker that's fine, you know, but when

430
00:21:50,201 --> 00:21:53,241
Speaker 4: you look at the actual offenses people were being charged with,

431
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,880
Speaker 4: usually it was stuff that really an old sergeant on

432
00:21:56,921 --> 00:21:59,400
Speaker 4: a bicycle could have done back in the day, you know,

433
00:21:59,801 --> 00:22:01,721
Speaker 4: And it wasn't making much of an impact.

434
00:22:02,120 --> 00:22:04,201
Speaker 1: So it really didn't make much difference.

435
00:22:04,241 --> 00:22:06,880
Speaker 4: And what I was seeing was that, yes, there were

436
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:11,360
Speaker 4: criminals in clubs, and you you knew that, but they

437
00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:13,921
Speaker 4: were often doing business with each other, little cells within

438
00:22:13,961 --> 00:22:17,721
Speaker 4: the club. They were often doing business with other clubs,

439
00:22:17,761 --> 00:22:20,961
Speaker 4: sometimes their rival clubs, even, you know, And that wasn't

440
00:22:20,961 --> 00:22:22,200
Speaker 4: something that everyone was in on.

441
00:22:22,441 --> 00:22:24,201
Speaker 1: In fact, I used to have these conversations with people.

442
00:22:24,201 --> 00:22:26,400
Speaker 4: I'd say, you know, some and so has brought his

443
00:22:26,521 --> 00:22:28,360
Speaker 4: made into the club, and he's doing this, that and

444
00:22:28,441 --> 00:22:30,120
Speaker 4: the other, and you know, we don't like it, and

445
00:22:30,120 --> 00:22:32,281
Speaker 4: we're not making any cash offer, and you know, we're

446
00:22:32,281 --> 00:22:34,120
Speaker 4: going to get rid of these guys this type of stuff.

447
00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:35,160
Speaker 1: So I wasn't universal.

448
00:22:35,241 --> 00:22:37,640
Speaker 4: So the whole thing was just a misnomer and just

449
00:22:37,681 --> 00:22:41,360
Speaker 4: another moral panic in society and an excuse to wind

450
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:43,960
Speaker 4: back civil liberties for everybody. And I just kind of

451
00:22:44,201 --> 00:22:47,241
Speaker 4: went along that path and you mentioned broadbeats. There was

452
00:22:47,241 --> 00:22:50,041
Speaker 4: also the Sydney Airport issue with of sells, angels and

453
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:54,521
Speaker 4: commos back then, and that just became like where there

454
00:22:54,561 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 4: was any doubt, there was no doubt and the public

455
00:22:57,041 --> 00:23:00,041
Speaker 4: was terrified, and you know, and I think it certainly,

456
00:23:00,481 --> 00:23:04,360
Speaker 4: I couldn't believe. After that, I started to see certain

457
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,401
Speaker 4: clubs turn up within the Melbourne Underworld.

458
00:23:06,961 --> 00:23:08,561
Speaker 1: Structure which hadn't been there before.

459
00:23:09,201 --> 00:23:10,761
Speaker 4: And I think we've seen some of that within the

460
00:23:10,761 --> 00:23:14,321
Speaker 4: building industry and heavy vehicle industry and so forth. And

461
00:23:14,360 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 4: I think it's become in some of these unions see

462
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,321
Speaker 4: this is a good way to build their own power

463
00:23:19,321 --> 00:23:21,801
Speaker 4: bases and all that type of stuff. So but it

464
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 4: doesn't do the average you know, outlaw one percent any

465
00:23:26,681 --> 00:23:27,360
Speaker 4: favors at all.

466
00:23:28,921 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 3: I want to just touch on something very important. It

467
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,121
Speaker 3: relates to this. And when we talk of clubs, there's

468
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,080
Speaker 3: always been clubs. Now and I know this is going

469
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,880
Speaker 3: to be so I guess controversial, and listeners are going

470
00:23:39,921 --> 00:23:42,041
Speaker 3: to sort of have their saying comments and what have you.

471
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,001
Speaker 3: But that's okay, this is the clink, so suck it

472
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,480
Speaker 3: up and sound like it changed the fucking channel.

473
00:23:46,921 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 1: But the bottom line is and no one can deny this.

474
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,801
Speaker 3: We outlaw one percenters right literally, I mean not just

475
00:23:53,921 --> 00:24:01,201
Speaker 3: use the term outlaws, but legally completely zero tolerance. Yet

476
00:24:01,481 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 3: we well also we we back in the day, we

477
00:24:05,321 --> 00:24:10,001
Speaker 3: would hold I put it down to like an ecosystem

478
00:24:10,041 --> 00:24:15,120
Speaker 3: within the humanity. So for example, the jungle has an ecosystem.

479
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:16,961
Speaker 3: You've got the King of the Jungle, and that works

480
00:24:17,001 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 3: its ways down the ocean. You know, we've got the

481
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,160
Speaker 3: white pointer, and then we work our way down. But

482
00:24:21,241 --> 00:24:22,160
Speaker 3: everything balances.

483
00:24:22,761 --> 00:24:25,161
Speaker 1: Now. I'm sure that you'll agree with this.

484
00:24:25,281 --> 00:24:27,881
Speaker 3: When we talk about our situation today and the youth

485
00:24:27,921 --> 00:24:30,481
Speaker 3: crimeinom everyone goes, oh yeah, they'd feed of this, feed

486
00:24:30,561 --> 00:24:37,281
Speaker 3: again fucking bullshit. Right when clubs were present within communities

487
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 3: or areas or suburbs, there was none of this bullshit

488
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,321
Speaker 3: going on. There was always someone higher to answer to.

489
00:24:44,481 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 3: And if you went in and robbed the fucking dear

490
00:24:46,120 --> 00:24:48,921
Speaker 3: old lady or slaps or raped some young girl or

491
00:24:49,281 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 3: you know four or five outed some bloke and whatever,

492
00:24:52,321 --> 00:24:55,880
Speaker 3: there were consequences that you would answer to. And parents

493
00:24:55,921 --> 00:24:58,120
Speaker 3: that had kids that were out of line, single parents

494
00:24:58,120 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 3: would knock on the clubhouse door and say, oh, look

495
00:25:00,001 --> 00:25:03,721
Speaker 3: at he Gan sim You know my son Barry, Barry's

496
00:25:03,801 --> 00:25:05,400
Speaker 3: just really out of here. I think he's out there

497
00:25:05,481 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 3: knocking off cars or whatever. Look, if you boys seen them,

498
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:08,801
Speaker 3: can you pull him up, give him a bit of

499
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:09,801
Speaker 3: a firm talk and.

500
00:25:09,761 --> 00:25:12,281
Speaker 1: Who a scare? Yeah, nowhere is missus Smith.

501
00:25:13,001 --> 00:25:15,041
Speaker 3: You know things like that that people don't say, and

502
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,400
Speaker 3: people go, oh yeah, bullshit. Look at the other side

503
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:23,281
Speaker 3: of this, right, you talk about religion, More fucking pedophiles

504
00:25:23,281 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 3: come out of the Catholic Church than anything else. Okay, corruption,

505
00:25:29,041 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 3: we've got police and political corruption, multi billion dollar fucking

506
00:25:33,561 --> 00:25:37,561
Speaker 3: frauds and corruption of PaperWorks signed under the table and

507
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 3: whichever way you want to start to pull it apart

508
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:41,761
Speaker 3: by the threads, there's a thousand threads there to pull.

509
00:25:42,241 --> 00:25:43,400
Speaker 1: How big do you want the whole?

510
00:25:44,360 --> 00:25:46,761
Speaker 3: I don't see anybody sitting there over the years turn

511
00:25:46,801 --> 00:25:50,521
Speaker 3: around and saying, right, consorting you mister politician, and you,

512
00:25:50,921 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 3: mister priest, and you mister school teacher, that you're a

513
00:25:55,921 --> 00:25:58,041
Speaker 3: you're all under the consorting Act or you know you're

514
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:03,001
Speaker 3: on I don't know, let's call it zero white collar club,

515
00:26:03,961 --> 00:26:05,041
Speaker 3: you know, zero tolerance.

516
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 1: Yes to me, what is the fucking difference? What is

517
00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:09,761
Speaker 1: the difference?

518
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:15,120
Speaker 3: Between you know, a white collared crime that's say, for example,

519
00:26:15,561 --> 00:26:17,721
Speaker 3: massive on fraud or even as we've seen in the

520
00:26:17,761 --> 00:26:21,561
Speaker 3: many years gone by, heavily involved in importation of major

521
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:26,521
Speaker 3: drug syndicates. Police come on, like, how many police over

522
00:26:26,561 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 3: the last twenty odd years thirty odd years have fallen

523
00:26:29,761 --> 00:26:33,120
Speaker 3: to the shit because of their ways and ethics that

524
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,561
Speaker 3: they swore to protect and oh bide by fucking bullshit.

525
00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 3: They see a grab, they take it, you know what

526
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:43,681
Speaker 3: I mean? Like it's one of those things where if

527
00:26:43,721 --> 00:26:46,201
Speaker 3: you're gonna sit there and you're gonna label something, then

528
00:26:46,201 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 3: look at it from the bigger picture. Why just take

529
00:26:48,961 --> 00:26:52,880
Speaker 3: one little spectacle of the bigger scene and say, okay,

530
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:54,120
Speaker 3: well that's the problem.

531
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you're the boogeyman, you know, we just we'll

532
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 1: just target that because they're bad people.

533
00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:02,681
Speaker 3: And all of a sudden, you know, across Australia, as

534
00:27:02,721 --> 00:27:06,801
Speaker 3: we know now, clubhouses insigney you know, like you don't

535
00:27:06,801 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 3: see anybody right on Melbourne, you do. They still have

536
00:27:09,521 --> 00:27:12,521
Speaker 3: it there and Western Australia has always been a zero tolerance.

537
00:27:12,561 --> 00:27:16,521
Speaker 3: South Australia's coming down extremely hard. Like I don't even know, really,

538
00:27:16,521 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 3: I think Melbourne might be the only place so many

539
00:27:18,321 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 3: of an NT. The NT's strict d as in Queensland.

540
00:27:21,120 --> 00:27:23,321
Speaker 3: Obviously he's a no brain and you just can't wear

541
00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:25,360
Speaker 3: colors or anything up here whatsoever.

542
00:27:25,481 --> 00:27:28,400
Speaker 1: So it's just pushed everything underground.

543
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 3: Now, back in the day, you would have structure, we'd

544
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 3: have discipline, we'd have a hierarchy within the system, like

545
00:27:35,201 --> 00:27:37,801
Speaker 3: the army does, like the police do, like anybody else

546
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,880
Speaker 3: with a structured club or outfit has. So there was

547
00:27:40,921 --> 00:27:43,360
Speaker 3: always someone even internally to answer to.

548
00:27:43,761 --> 00:27:44,001
Speaker 1: Fuck.

549
00:27:44,041 --> 00:27:46,441
Speaker 3: I remember doing something that I shouldn't have been doing,

550
00:27:46,481 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 3: and I was a senior member, and I still got

551
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,241
Speaker 3: black eyed by the Nationals for it because I did

552
00:27:51,281 --> 00:27:54,241
Speaker 3: the wrong thing, and it wasn't really the wrong thing

553
00:27:54,281 --> 00:27:56,961
Speaker 3: as in outside of the club, but within club rules

554
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:01,281
Speaker 3: between me and another member, I did something that you

555
00:28:01,961 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 3: just can't do it.

556
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:03,361
Speaker 1: You can't put you in.

557
00:28:03,360 --> 00:28:05,561
Speaker 3: On another member, you know what I mean without it sanction,

558
00:28:05,681 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 3: as simple as that. So long and short of that,

559
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 3: I was reprimanded for it and disciplined. Now, did I

560
00:28:11,721 --> 00:28:13,041
Speaker 3: want to go through that Chigan fact?

561
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 1: No?

562
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:15,721
Speaker 3: Oh, stand there in a circle of my brother's looking

563
00:28:15,801 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 3: to watch them getting black eyed because but you know,

564
00:28:19,201 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 3: I and many others were sometimes not easy to control,

565
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 3: and that's that was club life. You had someone to

566
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:30,161
Speaker 3: answer to. Oh yeah, so you know where we are today.

567
00:28:30,481 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 3: I feel the government has a lot to answer to

568
00:28:32,761 --> 00:28:34,640
Speaker 3: and we're just being dating issues high go out and

569
00:28:34,681 --> 00:28:36,961
Speaker 3: do like you know, you hear about the troubled youth

570
00:28:37,001 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 3: in North Queensland, you know, Townsville. We just did a

571
00:28:39,761 --> 00:28:42,561
Speaker 3: workshop up there, myself and Jeremy Donovan, you know, we

572
00:28:42,681 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 3: volunteered our time for a week, went up there and

573
00:28:44,521 --> 00:28:47,601
Speaker 3: really got into the community to see where the problems were.

574
00:28:47,881 --> 00:28:51,521
Speaker 3: It's not the fucking youth, it's everybody around there that's

575
00:28:51,521 --> 00:28:54,561
Speaker 3: been dating the problems and not really going back and asking.

576
00:28:54,321 --> 00:28:57,641
Speaker 1: What is the problem. Why are our young people rebelling?

577
00:28:57,801 --> 00:29:00,041
Speaker 3: Nothing to do with bike clubs, But yet the media

578
00:29:00,081 --> 00:29:01,881
Speaker 3: will be quick enough to portray oh yeah, they're up

579
00:29:01,881 --> 00:29:04,961
Speaker 3: and coming, you know, young gangs that are actually being

580
00:29:05,121 --> 00:29:07,241
Speaker 3: molded into club life and all this sort of shit.

581
00:29:08,041 --> 00:29:09,161
Speaker 1: It doesn't work like that.

582
00:29:09,561 --> 00:29:11,841
Speaker 3: I'm not saying that there's not outfits out there that

583
00:29:11,961 --> 00:29:16,601
Speaker 3: support clubs. There's always been supporter groups or supporter clubs,

584
00:29:16,601 --> 00:29:17,561
Speaker 3: if you will, gangs.

585
00:29:17,601 --> 00:29:21,401
Speaker 1: I mean, that's life, you know, That's just how it works.

586
00:29:21,481 --> 00:29:23,801
Speaker 3: It's no different to playing in the NRL or the

587
00:29:23,841 --> 00:29:26,681
Speaker 3: AFL and plane you reserve grade, you know, second and

588
00:29:26,721 --> 00:29:28,441
Speaker 3: third tier their structure.

589
00:29:28,641 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: You get what I'm saying. And at the end of it,

590
00:29:31,561 --> 00:29:32,601
Speaker 1: where is the problem?

591
00:29:32,721 --> 00:29:36,801
Speaker 3: The problem starts with us, Us as the adults, us

592
00:29:36,841 --> 00:29:42,241
Speaker 3: as the people in general that have a swaying decision

593
00:29:42,321 --> 00:29:47,281
Speaker 3: or making through parliamentary situation or maybe authority with law.

594
00:29:49,001 --> 00:29:50,961
Speaker 3: There's not going to be a solution, and it's only

595
00:29:51,001 --> 00:29:54,441
Speaker 3: getting worse. And I know that. Like I said, people

596
00:29:54,481 --> 00:29:55,881
Speaker 3: are going to sort of come at me for this,

597
00:29:56,041 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 3: But why hide the fucking clubs. Let the clubs be.

598
00:29:59,881 --> 00:30:01,401
Speaker 3: There's always going to be good and bad. There's always

599
00:30:01,401 --> 00:30:02,881
Speaker 3: going to be opposite. We're going to be corrupt, there's

600
00:30:02,881 --> 00:30:04,641
Speaker 3: always going to be politicians. There's always going to be

601
00:30:04,681 --> 00:30:08,321
Speaker 3: pre They're going to be pedophiles. That's just life. It's

602
00:30:08,361 --> 00:30:11,121
Speaker 3: been that way for how many centuries. There's always been

603
00:30:11,961 --> 00:30:13,321
Speaker 3: the pickpocket and the bootlegger.

604
00:30:13,521 --> 00:30:17,321
Speaker 4: There was graffiti on the walls of Pompeii five hundred BC,

605
00:30:17,521 --> 00:30:21,401
Speaker 4: goodness bemoaning the youth of today, young men out of control.

606
00:30:21,561 --> 00:30:24,561
Speaker 4: So I said before, it's like you just society always

607
00:30:24,601 --> 00:30:28,441
Speaker 4: loves a boogeyman. You know, whether it's the latest ethnic arrivals,

608
00:30:28,561 --> 00:30:30,561
Speaker 4: or it's bikers, or it's whoever it is. You know,

609
00:30:30,881 --> 00:30:33,041
Speaker 4: it's always easier to say, let's not look at the

610
00:30:33,121 --> 00:30:34,841
Speaker 4: roots of our problem. Let's just blame it on a

611
00:30:34,841 --> 00:30:38,561
Speaker 4: particular group in society and we'll legislate to ban them

612
00:30:38,881 --> 00:30:42,801
Speaker 4: while at the same time removing civil liberties and things

613
00:30:42,841 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 4: that I mean we grew up and you talk about

614
00:30:46,121 --> 00:30:48,561
Speaker 4: Lord of the Jungle, ecosystems and things. We grew up

615
00:30:48,721 --> 00:30:51,601
Speaker 4: I guess from the city Osborne in nineteen sixty two, right,

616
00:30:51,801 --> 00:30:55,041
Speaker 4: and so into the era of countercultures. There was all

617
00:30:55,121 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 4: kinds of countercultures going on, and as long as you

618
00:30:57,481 --> 00:31:00,041
Speaker 4: didn't fuck with other people, then you could pursue that

619
00:31:00,121 --> 00:31:01,041
Speaker 4: culture that you liked.

620
00:31:01,041 --> 00:31:03,121
Speaker 1: The bikers is one of those hippies, you name it,

621
00:31:03,121 --> 00:31:03,841
Speaker 1: they're all there.

622
00:31:04,161 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 4: And over time time that's the nab and sort of

623
00:31:06,721 --> 00:31:09,321
Speaker 4: clamped down on some people needed to be clamped down on.

624
00:31:09,361 --> 00:31:12,441
Speaker 4: But to sort of say that the diversity in our

625
00:31:12,481 --> 00:31:17,721
Speaker 4: society with self regulating countercultures is somehow a threat to

626
00:31:17,761 --> 00:31:20,641
Speaker 4: the fabric of society is rubbish and they'll always be there.

627
00:31:20,881 --> 00:31:22,401
Speaker 1: And I mean I saw firsthand.

628
00:31:22,641 --> 00:31:24,201
Speaker 4: Like a very close friend of mine was a sage

629
00:31:24,241 --> 00:31:27,041
Speaker 4: at one of the clubs, and his life man, it

630
00:31:27,121 --> 00:31:30,601
Speaker 4: was like the general manager of a really unruly kind

631
00:31:30,641 --> 00:31:33,081
Speaker 4: of company, and things were going on day and night,

632
00:31:33,121 --> 00:31:34,681
Speaker 4: and I'd stayed his house and I'd be with him

633
00:31:34,681 --> 00:31:36,001
Speaker 4: and see his family and the whole thing.

634
00:31:36,041 --> 00:31:38,361
Speaker 1: And you know, I used to joke with him and

635
00:31:38,361 --> 00:31:38,681
Speaker 1: his wife.

636
00:31:38,721 --> 00:31:40,801
Speaker 4: I'd say, I bet your wife would have rather you

637
00:31:40,841 --> 00:31:43,761
Speaker 4: took up fucking golf than this, you know, or anything else,

638
00:31:43,881 --> 00:31:46,601
Speaker 4: but this, you know, because it was and it was

639
00:31:46,641 --> 00:31:49,961
Speaker 4: financially draining. He was always having to talk to lawyers,

640
00:31:50,081 --> 00:31:51,641
Speaker 4: and you know, they had things like, you know, you

641
00:31:51,721 --> 00:31:53,841
Speaker 4: have someone who'd commit some sort of crime whatever, and

642
00:31:53,881 --> 00:31:56,641
Speaker 4: they'd want to ride back to the clubhouse and take

643
00:31:56,721 --> 00:31:59,081
Speaker 4: refuge there, and they have to say, there's no way

644
00:31:59,081 --> 00:32:01,521
Speaker 4: you're not coming in here. We'll actually give you up

645
00:32:01,761 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 4: because you're bringing heat on everybody now, you know. So

646
00:32:04,841 --> 00:32:07,321
Speaker 4: I think there was a lot of self regulation and

647
00:32:08,001 --> 00:32:11,001
Speaker 4: it worked really well. And you've experienced that and you're

648
00:32:11,001 --> 00:32:13,001
Speaker 4: on the receiving end of the rough justice as well.

649
00:32:13,321 --> 00:32:16,561
Speaker 1: So that's you see from both ends. Look, it's just part.

650
00:32:16,721 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 3: It's part and parcel, and like I said, you know,

651
00:32:18,841 --> 00:32:21,401
Speaker 3: like there is structure and there is discipline. And look, yeah,

652
00:32:21,401 --> 00:32:23,801
Speaker 3: everyone's can say they're all criminals and they're all drugs

653
00:32:23,801 --> 00:32:27,161
Speaker 3: and this and that. I can tell you now whatever,

654
00:32:27,401 --> 00:32:28,921
Speaker 3: there's good and bad and everything.

655
00:32:28,961 --> 00:32:32,841
Speaker 1: But other clubs or bikeys.

656
00:32:32,361 --> 00:32:35,561
Speaker 3: The ones that are completely deeply the ones you know,

657
00:32:35,761 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 3: organizing everyone, bringing everything, creating this disharmony within the community.

658
00:32:40,481 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 3: There's everyday people out there doing the same shit. You know,

659
00:32:43,041 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 3: just because you're a patch doesn't make it any different.

660
00:32:46,401 --> 00:32:49,481
Speaker 3: I just stepping away from here for a moment. There's

661
00:32:49,521 --> 00:32:52,001
Speaker 3: something that I wanted to touch on, which I think is

662
00:32:52,041 --> 00:32:57,641
Speaker 3: a really really big thing. Sunny Barger. I seen that

663
00:32:57,721 --> 00:33:03,041
Speaker 3: you got to go to America to be beside literally

664
00:33:03,161 --> 00:33:06,121
Speaker 3: the og of outlaw world.

665
00:33:07,401 --> 00:33:11,041
Speaker 1: I mean, really, who was there before him?

666
00:33:11,081 --> 00:33:13,881
Speaker 3: There was very few that were a true one percenter

667
00:33:14,121 --> 00:33:18,401
Speaker 3: and you know, lived by the meaning of and you

668
00:33:18,401 --> 00:33:21,801
Speaker 3: know today obviously being around one of the world the

669
00:33:21,801 --> 00:33:28,801
Speaker 3: biggest international motorcycle club in the world. Wow, Like, you know,

670
00:33:28,841 --> 00:33:33,161
Speaker 3: as somebody that's lived and breathed the life for this

671
00:33:33,321 --> 00:33:35,761
Speaker 3: is pretty pretty amazing that you were even able to

672
00:33:35,801 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 3: get close to a man like that on that scale.

673
00:33:39,281 --> 00:33:42,241
Speaker 1: How was that yeah, that was That's quite a moment.

674
00:33:42,881 --> 00:33:45,161
Speaker 4: Well, how it happened was that I was doing all

675
00:33:45,201 --> 00:33:48,321
Speaker 4: these stories in Australia and I'd met various bells, angels

676
00:33:48,321 --> 00:33:50,841
Speaker 4: and other clubs and things, and I was going to

677
00:33:50,841 --> 00:33:52,641
Speaker 4: America because my kids were living in America.

678
00:33:52,361 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 1: At the time in California.

679
00:33:53,721 --> 00:33:56,441
Speaker 4: I thought I'd try to go to Phoenix, Arizona, and

680
00:33:56,641 --> 00:33:58,041
Speaker 4: while I was there and catch up with him.

681
00:33:58,201 --> 00:34:00,761
Speaker 1: And it took I don't know, six weeks or something,

682
00:34:00,961 --> 00:34:01,521
Speaker 1: and it went.

683
00:34:01,401 --> 00:34:04,281
Speaker 4: Through this process of referral and I finally got to

684
00:34:04,281 --> 00:34:06,881
Speaker 4: speak to his lawyer, who wasn't a biker, but he

685
00:34:06,921 --> 00:34:09,401
Speaker 4: looked like one. He had a pink beard and he

686
00:34:09,481 --> 00:34:15,881
Speaker 4: had this mohawk and he was you know thewks. Yeah,

687
00:34:16,041 --> 00:34:20,601
Speaker 4: just looked like and anyway, so they were curious enough

688
00:34:20,641 --> 00:34:22,401
Speaker 4: to kind of, you know, let me come and spend

689
00:34:22,401 --> 00:34:24,281
Speaker 4: a day or two with him, and you know, we

690
00:34:24,321 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 4: went for a ride on his bike there and he said,

691
00:34:26,681 --> 00:34:29,081
Speaker 4: you know, this is really bad for my reputation having

692
00:34:29,081 --> 00:34:30,281
Speaker 4: you in the back of my Bike's supposed to be

693
00:34:30,281 --> 00:34:33,801
Speaker 4: a beautiful girl, not some lumpy Australian journo. And he

694
00:34:33,881 --> 00:34:36,721
Speaker 4: talked all about that freedom that people had brought into

695
00:34:36,761 --> 00:34:39,961
Speaker 4: the clubs and that camaraderie that people had had coming

696
00:34:39,961 --> 00:34:42,481
Speaker 4: out of the armed forces, people with the Air Force,

697
00:34:42,481 --> 00:34:45,081
Speaker 4: and they'd ridden Harley's and you know, at that time

698
00:34:45,081 --> 00:34:47,761
Speaker 4: they were paving all the roads of southern California and

699
00:34:47,801 --> 00:34:50,721
Speaker 4: suddenly had this freedom after the war, and also the

700
00:34:50,841 --> 00:34:55,121
Speaker 4: drift towards crime that occurred when they started to do runs.

701
00:34:55,201 --> 00:34:57,281
Speaker 4: In fact, what happened was they started to hang out

702
00:34:57,321 --> 00:35:01,081
Speaker 4: with the psychedelic crew Ken Kesey and authors like that,

703
00:35:01,241 --> 00:35:04,361
Speaker 4: you know, and initially that's how they turned onto drugs.

704
00:35:04,601 --> 00:35:06,961
Speaker 4: So that's scene, and pretty soon they realized that this

705
00:35:07,081 --> 00:35:09,761
Speaker 4: was exploding across California and the states, and so they

706
00:35:09,841 --> 00:35:12,921
Speaker 4: started to runs down to Mexico to pick up drugs

707
00:35:12,921 --> 00:35:15,561
Speaker 4: and so forth, and you know, pretty soon the fear

708
00:35:15,641 --> 00:35:17,881
Speaker 4: fact exactly what happened to here, some sort of moral

709
00:35:17,921 --> 00:35:23,521
Speaker 4: panic happened, and they actually enacted RICO, the racketeering influenced

710
00:35:24,081 --> 00:35:27,841
Speaker 4: blah blah blah legislation to stop the Hell's Angels.

711
00:35:27,921 --> 00:35:29,681
Speaker 1: It didn't work. They were the only ones to actually

712
00:35:29,761 --> 00:35:30,121
Speaker 1: beat it.

713
00:35:30,201 --> 00:35:33,121
Speaker 3: You know, it's pretty amazing, actually, isn't it. How they

714
00:35:33,241 --> 00:35:36,641
Speaker 3: actually did that. Very very smart, amazing smart.

715
00:35:36,961 --> 00:35:39,401
Speaker 4: Yeah, but again, it comes back to the same point

716
00:35:39,681 --> 00:35:43,441
Speaker 4: that you didn't join these clubs to simply commit crime.

717
00:35:43,961 --> 00:35:45,761
Speaker 4: Like I said, you wouldn't have done that. I mean,

718
00:35:45,961 --> 00:35:48,281
Speaker 4: you would have gone into the Philly mob or the

719
00:35:49,001 --> 00:35:51,081
Speaker 4: Collabrium or whatever. You wouldn't go into the club to

720
00:35:51,081 --> 00:35:53,841
Speaker 4: do this because you know, a you've got to share

721
00:35:53,841 --> 00:35:56,161
Speaker 4: it with a lot of people if that was the case,

722
00:35:56,681 --> 00:35:59,321
Speaker 4: and you're going to run a ground eventually, you know.

723
00:35:59,361 --> 00:36:01,761
Speaker 4: So I found that really instructive, and it's sort of

724
00:36:02,001 --> 00:36:05,001
Speaker 4: I could see the same cycles repeating from the fifties

725
00:36:05,481 --> 00:36:10,281
Speaker 4: onwards right until today, and it really told me, you know.

726
00:36:10,721 --> 00:36:13,161
Speaker 4: And Barger was at that time was saying that Phoenix,

727
00:36:13,241 --> 00:36:17,801
Speaker 4: Arizona had to have this massive economic explosion and all

728
00:36:17,881 --> 00:36:20,361
Speaker 4: the area was now being populated by these new settlers

729
00:36:20,401 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 4: and so forth, and he wanted to go further into

730
00:36:23,081 --> 00:36:25,121
Speaker 4: horse country, as he called it, you know, get away

731
00:36:25,161 --> 00:36:27,401
Speaker 4: from the cluster of you know.

732
00:36:27,561 --> 00:36:30,561
Speaker 1: I mean, at that stage there was all these nuveau reached.

733
00:36:30,281 --> 00:36:33,281
Speaker 4: People driving their Bentleys and their big Cadillacs, and you know,

734
00:36:33,321 --> 00:36:36,041
Speaker 4: he just hated it, you know, and that's what he

735
00:36:36,081 --> 00:36:37,441
Speaker 4: wanted to I'm not sure he ever did that, but

736
00:36:37,721 --> 00:36:40,401
Speaker 4: you know, it was always that freedom seeking element. And

737
00:36:40,441 --> 00:36:44,401
Speaker 4: I think as life becomes so much more constrained and

738
00:36:44,521 --> 00:36:47,601
Speaker 4: money becomes everything and at the cost of living is high,

739
00:36:47,681 --> 00:36:52,441
Speaker 4: people just you know, they forget the essence of being free.

740
00:36:52,841 --> 00:36:54,561
Speaker 4: And I think that's what really attracted me. I mean,

741
00:36:54,561 --> 00:36:56,881
Speaker 4: I was I was an African correspondent and roamed all

742
00:36:56,881 --> 00:36:59,761
Speaker 4: over Africa in the nineties and it's really experienced some

743
00:36:59,881 --> 00:37:02,401
Speaker 4: of the same notions, you know, that I experienced in

744
00:37:02,441 --> 00:37:03,321
Speaker 4: the bike world.

745
00:37:03,081 --> 00:37:04,241
Speaker 1: So I could identify with that.

746
00:37:04,641 --> 00:37:06,761
Speaker 4: So really he set me up for coming back to

747
00:37:06,801 --> 00:37:11,681
Speaker 4: Australia and having these really important conversations that weren't popular. Breath,

748
00:37:11,721 --> 00:37:13,601
Speaker 4: they weren't popular. I wrote a book on out law

749
00:37:13,601 --> 00:37:15,641
Speaker 4: its actually I'm going to he sit in here. I mean,

750
00:37:15,881 --> 00:37:19,521
Speaker 4: this book sold about two copies. Really, I'm serious, because

751
00:37:19,521 --> 00:37:23,001
Speaker 4: it didn't stoke the stereotype, you know, but I was

752
00:37:23,001 --> 00:37:25,161
Speaker 4: happy because it reflected my experience.

753
00:37:25,521 --> 00:37:28,601
Speaker 1: I had to have a bit of guilt to myself.

754
00:37:29,081 --> 00:37:29,321
Speaker 1: You know.

755
00:37:29,361 --> 00:37:33,881
Speaker 3: Back in the day, there was this university whatever you call,

756
00:37:34,041 --> 00:37:36,601
Speaker 3: somebody who'd gone through criminology in that and he was

757
00:37:37,201 --> 00:37:40,841
Speaker 3: the go to guy on outlaw clubs and he was

758
00:37:40,881 --> 00:37:42,921
Speaker 3: in Sydney for many, many years I think the Daily

759
00:37:42,961 --> 00:37:45,361
Speaker 3: Telegraph used to just grab him all the time, and

760
00:37:45,761 --> 00:37:48,681
Speaker 3: he'd always have his two cents worth in doctor somebody

761
00:37:48,921 --> 00:37:52,721
Speaker 3: I think he is today or but the shit that

762
00:37:52,881 --> 00:37:55,241
Speaker 3: used to come out like any time that there was

763
00:37:55,281 --> 00:37:58,241
Speaker 3: an incident or something. I mean, obviously things were a

764
00:37:58,241 --> 00:38:01,961
Speaker 3: lot different back then. Weren't as in your face today,

765
00:38:01,961 --> 00:38:04,361
Speaker 3: that's for sure, But if anything did kick off, it

766
00:38:04,401 --> 00:38:04,841
Speaker 3: was like a wow.

767
00:38:05,241 --> 00:38:07,361
Speaker 1: Back then. Today it's just expected every day there's going

768
00:38:07,401 --> 00:38:07,841
Speaker 1: to be something.

769
00:38:07,961 --> 00:38:10,481
Speaker 3: There's today that someone's going to pass through a shooting

770
00:38:10,561 --> 00:38:12,921
Speaker 3: or a stabbing, or it's going to happen. It's inevitable.

771
00:38:13,521 --> 00:38:16,601
Speaker 3: Back then it was wow, shit, that's a big thing.

772
00:38:16,801 --> 00:38:18,681
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, you know. But yet little did they

773
00:38:18,721 --> 00:38:23,921
Speaker 3: know how much underneath, beyond everybody's knowledge, things were happening.

774
00:38:24,001 --> 00:38:27,161
Speaker 3: It was just done very discreetly in a much different way.

775
00:38:27,201 --> 00:38:30,441
Speaker 3: But this this spokesperson, you know, and I think that

776
00:38:30,481 --> 00:38:32,481
Speaker 3: he wrote a few books, to be honest with you.

777
00:38:32,841 --> 00:38:36,281
Speaker 3: He was an author as well about the outlaw world.

778
00:38:36,321 --> 00:38:39,121
Speaker 3: He just they would go to him and have him

779
00:38:39,161 --> 00:38:41,401
Speaker 3: on the news and have him in the papers, and

780
00:38:41,601 --> 00:38:44,681
Speaker 3: he knew everything. He knew everything about every club and

781
00:38:44,721 --> 00:38:46,641
Speaker 3: how it worked in the inside, it's just to sit

782
00:38:46,721 --> 00:38:54,641
Speaker 3: there and game right really like it's the media is

783
00:38:54,841 --> 00:38:58,001
Speaker 3: just a fearmonger, like it really is, you know, like

784
00:38:58,721 --> 00:39:01,361
Speaker 3: I can't go into too much detail, but even in

785
00:39:01,681 --> 00:39:04,641
Speaker 3: this matter that I've been fighting for the last five years,

786
00:39:05,081 --> 00:39:07,041
Speaker 3: the media came in and you know that, as you

787
00:39:07,081 --> 00:39:09,001
Speaker 3: can see on Google you can type it in and

788
00:39:09,041 --> 00:39:10,881
Speaker 3: see there some of the headlines and this and that,

789
00:39:11,841 --> 00:39:14,001
Speaker 3: like really and then all of a sudden they come

790
00:39:14,041 --> 00:39:17,641
Speaker 3: into a committal trial and within two days it went

791
00:39:17,681 --> 00:39:20,561
Speaker 3: for a five day committal trial to media in there

792
00:39:20,601 --> 00:39:23,761
Speaker 3: and plastering my face again. To then there was not

793
00:39:23,921 --> 00:39:27,361
Speaker 3: a word said in any paper, on any news or

794
00:39:27,401 --> 00:39:31,641
Speaker 3: anything because they could obviously see the real story of

795
00:39:31,641 --> 00:39:33,961
Speaker 3: what was going on, and it wasn't anything that there

796
00:39:34,001 --> 00:39:36,041
Speaker 3: was originally portrayed it to be, because the way it

797
00:39:36,081 --> 00:39:40,681
Speaker 3: came out was extremely harsh of what allegedly took place

798
00:39:41,241 --> 00:39:44,521
Speaker 3: and this allegation of what happened on this particular day.

799
00:39:45,041 --> 00:39:47,801
Speaker 3: So you know, initially it was like blah blah blah,

800
00:39:47,801 --> 00:39:51,161
Speaker 3: and everyone was like, oh, fuck, that's bad, that's really bad,

801
00:39:51,241 --> 00:39:55,921
Speaker 3: like this, Well, no, the proof's out there now and

802
00:39:55,961 --> 00:39:57,481
Speaker 3: it's all all been put on the table.

803
00:39:57,681 --> 00:39:57,881
Speaker 1: You know.

804
00:39:58,001 --> 00:40:00,601
Speaker 3: I mean, obviously I can't obviously talk about it because

805
00:40:00,601 --> 00:40:03,841
Speaker 3: of the case being active. But what I can say

806
00:40:03,921 --> 00:40:08,601
Speaker 3: is it wasmpletely reverse what the media portrayed it to be,

807
00:40:09,081 --> 00:40:14,321
Speaker 3: totally completely backflipped, you know, so how much power Yet

808
00:40:14,401 --> 00:40:17,481
Speaker 3: I will get pulled up And it happened to me

809
00:40:17,561 --> 00:40:20,401
Speaker 3: after my matter. I had the Crown reach out to

810
00:40:20,721 --> 00:40:23,641
Speaker 3: my legal team and I put up a post purely

811
00:40:23,761 --> 00:40:28,401
Speaker 3: just in no way identifying or intimidating anybody by any means.

812
00:40:28,481 --> 00:40:30,961
Speaker 3: But it was just a post simply saying, you know,

813
00:40:31,081 --> 00:40:34,001
Speaker 3: being a Crown witness or a witness to something, if

814
00:40:34,001 --> 00:40:36,881
Speaker 3: you're going to lie on oath, has a detrimental effect

815
00:40:36,961 --> 00:40:40,801
Speaker 3: to many people involved, ie families myself, Like I was

816
00:40:40,841 --> 00:40:44,081
Speaker 3: referring to my situation because it was all bullshit and

817
00:40:44,121 --> 00:40:46,241
Speaker 3: it all come out that it was.

818
00:40:46,201 --> 00:40:47,561
Speaker 1: All just bullshit.

819
00:40:48,281 --> 00:40:51,521
Speaker 3: So you know, the effect of the last five years,

820
00:40:51,641 --> 00:40:54,761
Speaker 3: the financial effect, the relationship, all the damage that was done,

821
00:40:55,321 --> 00:40:58,041
Speaker 3: you know now I've got to work back from is huge.

822
00:40:58,121 --> 00:41:01,121
Speaker 3: Because someone decided to lie for what reason, you know what,

823
00:41:01,201 --> 00:41:03,961
Speaker 3: I mean, to save their own ass, but yet they

824
00:41:04,001 --> 00:41:06,481
Speaker 3: thought they were all covered and then a committal it

825
00:41:06,481 --> 00:41:08,481
Speaker 3: all comes out in the wash anyway, you know, like

826
00:41:08,561 --> 00:41:11,041
Speaker 3: the statement comes out that you can't hide from it.

827
00:41:11,041 --> 00:41:15,081
Speaker 1: It's there. But the media wrote that. I mean, I

828
00:41:15,121 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 1: had my.

829
00:41:15,481 --> 00:41:18,121
Speaker 3: Daughter getting attacked, you know, Okay, what sort of my

830
00:41:18,201 --> 00:41:22,001
Speaker 3: father was involved in murder and all this sort of shit, Like, mate,

831
00:41:22,241 --> 00:41:25,081
Speaker 3: don't attack my kids over something that you know nothing about.

832
00:41:25,281 --> 00:41:26,881
Speaker 1: I knew nothing about it, you know.

833
00:41:26,961 --> 00:41:29,681
Speaker 3: But here I am getting dragged into something that you know,

834
00:41:29,721 --> 00:41:32,361
Speaker 3: the media portrayed because of my position at that stage

835
00:41:32,361 --> 00:41:35,201
Speaker 3: within a club that I was somewhat of authority and

836
00:41:35,281 --> 00:41:37,521
Speaker 3: you know, enforced or whatever you want to call it,

837
00:41:38,321 --> 00:41:40,721
Speaker 3: I had to have been involved. Well that's not the

838
00:41:40,721 --> 00:41:44,681
Speaker 3: case at all. So I'm one of many that that's

839
00:41:44,721 --> 00:41:48,361
Speaker 3: happened to, you know, So therefore you are labeled. You

840
00:41:48,401 --> 00:41:51,641
Speaker 3: are one hundred percent labeled, and every headline to this date.

841
00:41:51,681 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 3: I mean, my club life stopped in two thousand and nine,

842
00:41:54,001 --> 00:41:57,081
Speaker 3: twenty ten, just as the laws were changing. I got

843
00:41:57,121 --> 00:42:00,241
Speaker 3: the six years sentence for importation and that was done.

844
00:42:00,441 --> 00:42:02,641
Speaker 3: I've been involved since I was a kid. You know,

845
00:42:02,761 --> 00:42:05,761
Speaker 3: I could see change and I was respectfully enough, that

846
00:42:05,921 --> 00:42:07,761
Speaker 3: was it. I just wanted to do my time and

847
00:42:07,841 --> 00:42:11,921
Speaker 3: get out and be a dad. So when you sit

848
00:42:11,961 --> 00:42:15,281
Speaker 3: there and you think about, you know, those ways that

849
00:42:16,081 --> 00:42:18,801
Speaker 3: the police and the media are able to amp things up.

850
00:42:18,841 --> 00:42:22,761
Speaker 1: The public then get a perception of fear.

851
00:42:23,561 --> 00:42:29,681
Speaker 3: Naturally, all their perception is is scum, fear, bad shit people,

852
00:42:30,121 --> 00:42:33,041
Speaker 3: and it's so far from the truth. And once again,

853
00:42:33,081 --> 00:42:34,881
Speaker 3: you know, you go back to any walk of life,

854
00:42:35,641 --> 00:42:37,521
Speaker 3: it doesn't matter whether you're in a club or not.

855
00:42:37,721 --> 00:42:45,681
Speaker 3: There's those labels attached to every people, just on every level. Yeah,

856
00:42:45,721 --> 00:42:47,881
Speaker 3: where do we start, where do we finish?

857
00:42:48,321 --> 00:42:48,601
Speaker 1: Yeah?

858
00:42:48,721 --> 00:42:51,841
Speaker 4: Yeah, And it's really terrible when it can affect legal

859
00:42:51,881 --> 00:42:55,121
Speaker 4: proceedings and presumptions of innocence of this.

860
00:42:55,081 --> 00:42:55,641
Speaker 1: Type of stuff.

861
00:42:55,641 --> 00:42:57,481
Speaker 4: You know, But I hope it's driven a lot of

862
00:42:57,481 --> 00:42:58,281
Speaker 4: people towards your.

863
00:42:58,161 --> 00:43:01,321
Speaker 3: Podcast where you're guilty, you're guilty to prove in innocent.

864
00:43:01,681 --> 00:43:03,601
Speaker 4: Yeah, I hope it's driven driven a lot of people

865
00:43:03,601 --> 00:43:06,321
Speaker 4: towards your podcast because to write it can be you know,

866
00:43:06,361 --> 00:43:07,961
Speaker 4: it can be not a bad thing either. I mean,

867
00:43:08,001 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 4: chop a read, I mean who I think he never

868
00:43:10,521 --> 00:43:12,441
Speaker 4: told a true story in his whole life. You know,

869
00:43:12,481 --> 00:43:15,321
Speaker 4: he understood that the value of notoriety. And he's a

870
00:43:15,321 --> 00:43:18,161
Speaker 4: guy that was so damaged, you know, I know, I

871
00:43:18,201 --> 00:43:20,721
Speaker 4: know his real deep background. People don't understand who he

872
00:43:20,761 --> 00:43:23,241
Speaker 4: really was. He wasn't anything like he was portrayed. He

873
00:43:23,281 --> 00:43:27,281
Speaker 4: had a really nasty childhood, he had psychological issues, he

874
00:43:27,361 --> 00:43:29,841
Speaker 4: had all kinds of things, and he found a way

875
00:43:29,881 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 4: through telling stories to actually get a career. Twenty three years,

876
00:43:33,481 --> 00:43:37,081
Speaker 4: nine months in jail, right for all stupid things. Nothing

877
00:43:37,121 --> 00:43:39,121
Speaker 4: like being against the stupid things. You don't want to

878
00:43:39,161 --> 00:43:41,361
Speaker 4: go into it. But he found a way beyond that

879
00:43:41,801 --> 00:43:44,241
Speaker 4: by telling stories and giving the public what they.

880
00:43:44,121 --> 00:43:47,001
Speaker 1: Wanted, to the point where this is hilarious.

881
00:43:47,201 --> 00:43:49,841
Speaker 4: When he was dying, rings me out and says, mate,

882
00:43:50,001 --> 00:43:51,401
Speaker 4: I got to make some money for the kids.

883
00:43:51,681 --> 00:43:53,881
Speaker 1: I said, what story are you going to tell now? Mark?

884
00:43:54,201 --> 00:43:56,601
Speaker 1: He said, mate, you know four murders? I said, mean,

885
00:43:56,641 --> 00:43:57,361
Speaker 1: you didn't kill four.

886
00:43:57,481 --> 00:43:59,161
Speaker 4: You know you kill one bloke sending to Turk that

887
00:43:59,241 --> 00:44:01,801
Speaker 4: was self defense, more than four. He says, shut up.

888
00:44:02,081 --> 00:44:04,041
Speaker 4: I said, okay, you want to sell it? Who to

889
00:44:04,241 --> 00:44:06,561
Speaker 4: sixty minutes? I said, okay, how much do you want?

890
00:44:07,001 --> 00:44:09,561
Speaker 4: Quarter million dollars? I said, mate, you are fucking dreaming.

891
00:44:09,761 --> 00:44:12,361
Speaker 4: You're not going to get that. And he said, mate,

892
00:44:12,361 --> 00:44:13,881
Speaker 4: shut up, do it for me. I said, fair enough

893
00:44:13,921 --> 00:44:14,801
Speaker 4: to I aised some favors.

894
00:44:14,801 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 1: I go and blow me down.

895
00:44:16,561 --> 00:44:19,841
Speaker 4: They paid it right, and I said, you realize he's bullshitting?

896
00:44:20,121 --> 00:44:22,041
Speaker 4: Do you realize his bulls? And I said, oh, we'd

897
00:44:22,081 --> 00:44:24,521
Speaker 4: better get you to check some of these yarns. I said, okay,

898
00:44:24,841 --> 00:44:26,641
Speaker 4: check the first one. Reckon he'd killed a bloke in

899
00:44:27,441 --> 00:44:29,841
Speaker 4: D division and Penttridge in company with a guy called

900
00:44:29,841 --> 00:44:33,881
Speaker 4: mad Charlie Haglaji who was his childhood mate. And checked

901
00:44:33,881 --> 00:44:36,641
Speaker 4: the corners file, checked the prison records I could get to.

902
00:44:37,001 --> 00:44:39,841
Speaker 4: I found that Mark and Charlie weren't even in the

903
00:44:39,881 --> 00:44:42,281
Speaker 4: same division. In fact, Charlie wasn't in the jail, and

904
00:44:42,321 --> 00:44:45,881
Speaker 4: the bloke that they'd supposedly kicked to death had hung

905
00:44:45,921 --> 00:44:48,441
Speaker 4: himself flat out in the jail. So go make the

906
00:44:48,481 --> 00:44:51,361
Speaker 4: sixty and said, oh to all bullshit. I said that's

907
00:44:51,441 --> 00:44:53,681
Speaker 4: enough checking. I said, well there's three more. They've gone

908
00:44:53,721 --> 00:44:56,641
Speaker 4: like that's enough. And mate, that was the highest rating

909
00:44:56,761 --> 00:44:58,121
Speaker 4: sixty minutes of the year.

910
00:45:00,721 --> 00:45:02,201
Speaker 1: I actually I remember it.

911
00:45:02,201 --> 00:45:03,961
Speaker 3: They were walking through the scrub and that weren't there

912
00:45:04,001 --> 00:45:06,521
Speaker 3: and he was just kicking time. He was just talking shit.

913
00:45:07,361 --> 00:45:09,321
Speaker 3: What was the name that it was? A female? Wasn't

914
00:45:09,321 --> 00:45:10,281
Speaker 3: it that interviewed him?

915
00:45:10,521 --> 00:45:12,761
Speaker 1: Am I right? Tara Brown it was, wasn't it.

916
00:45:12,921 --> 00:45:16,321
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, and I actually remember that years ago, and

917
00:45:16,801 --> 00:45:18,801
Speaker 3: that's right because he was he was well and truly

918
00:45:18,841 --> 00:45:23,161
Speaker 3: into his deathbed. Yeah, he wanted to just leave a

919
00:45:23,201 --> 00:45:25,321
Speaker 3: little bit there that you know, hadn't been.

920
00:45:25,321 --> 00:45:28,681
Speaker 4: Dug up, so to speak, well thought Robbish, I mean,

921
00:45:28,721 --> 00:45:32,801
Speaker 4: you know, I mean he he had shot Sydney Michael Collins,

922
00:45:32,801 --> 00:45:35,801
Speaker 4: a biker in Tasmania in the guts, you know, for

923
00:45:35,841 --> 00:45:37,481
Speaker 4: nothing at all, just he was in the car and

924
00:45:37,601 --> 00:45:39,081
Speaker 4: we board and he shot him in the starch. I mean,

925
00:45:39,681 --> 00:45:42,601
Speaker 4: stupid stuff Mark did. But the fact that the idea

926
00:45:42,641 --> 00:45:44,321
Speaker 4: that he backed up and killed him after a show

927
00:45:44,401 --> 00:45:47,521
Speaker 4: up and casino in you know, northern New South Wales

928
00:45:47,601 --> 00:45:49,761
Speaker 4: was complete rubbish and I pretty the poor coppers who

929
00:45:49,761 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 4: had to follow it up, you know. But it didn't

930
00:45:51,561 --> 00:45:56,281
Speaker 4: really matter because the truth wasn't important. The impression, the impact,

931
00:45:56,641 --> 00:46:00,401
Speaker 4: you know, the reinforcement of stereotypes was more important than

932
00:46:00,481 --> 00:46:03,361
Speaker 4: the truth, because, let's face it, our meet has become entertainment.

933
00:46:03,481 --> 00:46:05,761
Speaker 4: You know, people switch on to your poet, I guess

934
00:46:05,841 --> 00:46:08,121
Speaker 4: for different reasons, but the game of the mainstream media

935
00:46:08,481 --> 00:46:12,361
Speaker 4: often just for entertainment, and if you're working in that space, Okay.

936
00:46:12,401 --> 00:46:14,841
Speaker 4: I started in newspapers back in nineteen eighty six. When

937
00:46:14,841 --> 00:46:15,601
Speaker 4: you how old were you then?

938
00:46:16,121 --> 00:46:21,281
Speaker 3: Eighty six forty nine, so eighty six, eighty thirty five,

939
00:46:21,361 --> 00:46:23,761
Speaker 3: eighty six, I was ten, was ten? Right?

940
00:46:23,961 --> 00:46:25,801
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, ten ten or eleven?

941
00:46:26,361 --> 00:46:28,481
Speaker 4: Right, So I was trying to make my way at

942
00:46:28,481 --> 00:46:31,521
Speaker 4: that time, and we had to cover everything, right, you

943
00:46:31,561 --> 00:46:34,401
Speaker 4: were the journal of record, and you know, but as

944
00:46:34,441 --> 00:46:36,801
Speaker 4: soon as we get towards the Internet era where all

945
00:46:36,841 --> 00:46:39,561
Speaker 4: the articles are being downloads suddenly matter.

946
00:46:39,641 --> 00:46:39,761
Speaker 3: You know.

947
00:46:39,761 --> 00:46:42,161
Speaker 4: It wasn't just a sales that was now downloads, you know.

948
00:46:42,441 --> 00:46:44,561
Speaker 4: So if your story didn't rate, you didn't get in

949
00:46:44,601 --> 00:46:45,161
Speaker 4: the next time.

950
00:46:45,281 --> 00:46:48,641
Speaker 3: What do you call it today, click clickbait, clickbaiting. Isn't

951
00:46:48,681 --> 00:46:52,081
Speaker 3: it called clickbaiting or something exactly exactly?

952
00:46:52,681 --> 00:46:54,401
Speaker 1: And so you know you've been a victim of it.

953
00:46:54,561 --> 00:46:56,841
Speaker 4: You know, if you've got a decent headline bikey and

954
00:46:56,921 --> 00:46:59,041
Speaker 4: forser murderer.

955
00:46:58,681 --> 00:46:59,321
Speaker 1: Well what's this?

956
00:46:59,961 --> 00:47:02,521
Speaker 4: You know, within five minutes you've forgotten it, You got

957
00:47:02,521 --> 00:47:03,161
Speaker 4: onto the next thing.

958
00:47:03,201 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 1: It doesn't really matter.

959
00:47:04,281 --> 00:47:06,241
Speaker 4: So I'm I wish I could tell people not to

960
00:47:06,241 --> 00:47:08,801
Speaker 4: take it so seriously. But I'll tell you one thing though,

961
00:47:09,121 --> 00:47:11,481
Speaker 4: One thing I did notice in the criminal world also

962
00:47:11,521 --> 00:47:14,921
Speaker 4: in MCS and so forth, was that they needed the police,

963
00:47:14,961 --> 00:47:18,641
Speaker 4: they needed the media because that gave them solidarity. Look

964
00:47:18,681 --> 00:47:21,121
Speaker 4: at those bastards they want to want to bring us down.

965
00:47:21,161 --> 00:47:22,681
Speaker 4: Look at the coppers, you know what I mean. So

966
00:47:22,721 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 4: it actually was a point of solidarity, and they would

967
00:47:25,441 --> 00:47:28,241
Speaker 4: read about themselves relentlessly. In fact, I think the worst

968
00:47:28,241 --> 00:47:30,241
Speaker 4: thing I could have done as a crime jural was

969
00:47:30,241 --> 00:47:33,481
Speaker 4: get their name wrong, you know, it was misspelled or something,

970
00:47:33,721 --> 00:47:36,601
Speaker 4: because people loved the publicity they actually did, you know.

971
00:47:37,681 --> 00:47:39,921
Speaker 3: I remember when I wrote I Come out of Jail

972
00:47:40,161 --> 00:47:43,201
Speaker 3: two thousand and fourteen too. Yeah, I finished my parole

973
00:47:44,201 --> 00:47:46,681
Speaker 3: and fifteen had three years pro and I come out anyway,

974
00:47:46,681 --> 00:47:48,641
Speaker 3: I finished it. And I become the first person in

975
00:47:48,681 --> 00:47:52,001
Speaker 3: the world to cycle across Australia in forty five days

976
00:47:52,041 --> 00:47:54,841
Speaker 3: from east to west and long and short of.

977
00:47:54,761 --> 00:47:57,201
Speaker 1: It all on a bicycle. Yeah, yeah, I cycled. Yep.

978
00:47:57,401 --> 00:47:59,201
Speaker 1: Are you fucking crazy? You do that?

979
00:47:59,281 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 3: Yeah?

980
00:47:59,481 --> 00:48:03,521
Speaker 1: Because I'm fucking crazy, because I know.

981
00:48:03,681 --> 00:48:06,001
Speaker 3: Look, in all honesty, it was to awareness for mental

982
00:48:06,001 --> 00:48:08,481
Speaker 3: health and suicidality, and it was there was a lot

983
00:48:08,521 --> 00:48:10,721
Speaker 3: more purpose behind it. And not only that, I wanted

984
00:48:10,721 --> 00:48:12,721
Speaker 3: my children to be proud of their dad, not to

985
00:48:13,241 --> 00:48:15,121
Speaker 3: you know, as time got on, as we are today,

986
00:48:15,201 --> 00:48:18,361
Speaker 3: google my name and just see blah blah blah blah.

987
00:48:18,441 --> 00:48:21,241
Speaker 3: You know, I wanted them to actually engage. I'm very

988
00:48:21,281 --> 00:48:23,561
Speaker 3: proud of your dad. And I have twenty six year old,

989
00:48:23,561 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 3: eighteen year old, fifteen year olds, so they're not young.

990
00:48:25,681 --> 00:48:28,881
Speaker 3: They're getting older. And as we know, anybody can google

991
00:48:28,921 --> 00:48:31,681
Speaker 3: anything these days. It's all there to be read. How

992
00:48:31,761 --> 00:48:34,721
Speaker 3: you take it is up to you. But the morning

993
00:48:35,241 --> 00:48:39,281
Speaker 3: I was leaving the Gold Coast Bulletin and fuck, I

994
00:48:39,321 --> 00:48:43,241
Speaker 3: can't stand them, and I mean it, I fucking despise

995
00:48:43,361 --> 00:48:47,081
Speaker 3: the Gold Coast Bulletin. They did an interview with me

996
00:48:47,121 --> 00:48:50,881
Speaker 3: about the right now in that ride. They was just

997
00:48:50,961 --> 00:48:53,601
Speaker 3: in that turning point I think of the new laws

998
00:48:53,601 --> 00:48:56,681
Speaker 3: coming in, and they were going on about, you know,

999
00:48:56,721 --> 00:49:00,001
Speaker 3: that Nike bikey style of biker and all this sort

1000
00:49:00,001 --> 00:49:04,161
Speaker 3: of crap like whatever. They asked me a couple of

1001
00:49:04,241 --> 00:49:09,321
Speaker 3: questions about the style of biker coming along now, you know,

1002
00:49:09,441 --> 00:49:11,521
Speaker 3: because you know they're all looking big on the juice

1003
00:49:11,521 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 3: and the big gold chains and said, fuck, you know what,

1004
00:49:15,401 --> 00:49:17,281
Speaker 3: you know, one's bigger than the club sort of thing,

1005
00:49:17,361 --> 00:49:19,161
Speaker 3: and you know, like it doesn't matter how much juice

1006
00:49:19,201 --> 00:49:21,241
Speaker 3: you put in those needles you stick in your ass,

1007
00:49:21,921 --> 00:49:23,761
Speaker 3: your heart's not going to grow any bigger. It was

1008
00:49:23,761 --> 00:49:27,601
Speaker 3: something along those lines, mate, Did they take that out

1009
00:49:27,601 --> 00:49:30,401
Speaker 3: of context? And next minute I'm leaving, I'm reading the

1010
00:49:30,401 --> 00:49:34,201
Speaker 3: paper in the morning expecting this really nice editorial like say,

1011
00:49:34,201 --> 00:49:36,761
Speaker 3: whatever about my past, But what I was actually doing,

1012
00:49:36,841 --> 00:49:38,961
Speaker 3: why I was doing, what I was doing, who I

1013
00:49:39,081 --> 00:49:41,681
Speaker 3: was representing, and what the purpose.

1014
00:49:41,321 --> 00:49:44,361
Speaker 1: Of my journey was was about that big in a

1015
00:49:44,401 --> 00:49:46,121
Speaker 1: two page editorial.

1016
00:49:46,481 --> 00:49:50,681
Speaker 3: The rest was all about clubs, the laws changing, and

1017
00:49:50,801 --> 00:49:55,481
Speaker 3: me stating that I think that the bikes today were

1018
00:49:55,521 --> 00:49:57,841
Speaker 3: weak and they stick steroids in their ass to try

1019
00:49:57,841 --> 00:50:01,361
Speaker 3: and intimidate, like completely reworded and blew it out of

1020
00:50:01,401 --> 00:50:03,721
Speaker 3: proportion to the point where it would have had to

1021
00:50:03,761 --> 00:50:05,121
Speaker 3: have pissed somebody off.

1022
00:50:05,721 --> 00:50:08,681
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking, are you fucking kidding? I'm about to

1023
00:50:08,721 --> 00:50:11,481
Speaker 1: ride four five hundred kilometers with a car.

1024
00:50:11,401 --> 00:50:13,961
Speaker 3: Follow me one other bloke who's just the normal bloke

1025
00:50:14,001 --> 00:50:17,601
Speaker 3: with a caravan, and I am a moving target heading

1026
00:50:17,641 --> 00:50:20,801
Speaker 3: across this country in the most remote parts of this kind. Mate,

1027
00:50:20,841 --> 00:50:23,761
Speaker 3: I could have just something laid in the grass, wouldn't

1028
00:50:23,761 --> 00:50:25,521
Speaker 3: have even known and has put one straight through me

1029
00:50:25,561 --> 00:50:26,441
Speaker 3: and just kept going.

1030
00:50:26,801 --> 00:50:28,201
Speaker 1: No one would have known any different.

1031
00:50:28,521 --> 00:50:31,321
Speaker 3: And I thought to myself at that stage that was

1032
00:50:31,361 --> 00:50:34,081
Speaker 3: for me, that was like fuck this, you know what

1033
00:50:34,161 --> 00:50:36,761
Speaker 3: I mean, the media can truly go fuck themselves. And

1034
00:50:36,801 --> 00:50:40,161
Speaker 3: then you get the ABC, which did some fantastic editorials

1035
00:50:40,201 --> 00:50:43,921
Speaker 3: and supported my right and basically anything I've done, even

1036
00:50:43,921 --> 00:50:44,721
Speaker 3: with the podcast.

1037
00:50:44,801 --> 00:50:45,841
Speaker 1: You know, there's been some.

1038
00:50:45,721 --> 00:50:49,761
Speaker 3: Great reads there that they've really been supportive about, and

1039
00:50:50,281 --> 00:50:53,881
Speaker 3: you appreciate those moments, so like, hey, there's good and

1040
00:50:53,921 --> 00:50:54,961
Speaker 3: bad everywhere, isn't there?

1041
00:50:55,361 --> 00:50:56,081
Speaker 1: Well, there is, you know.

1042
00:50:56,121 --> 00:50:58,441
Speaker 4: And I think that the financial pressures on the media

1043
00:50:59,241 --> 00:51:01,881
Speaker 4: are so great these days that they'll default towards, you know,

1044
00:51:02,201 --> 00:51:04,721
Speaker 4: the old principle of no conflict, no interest sort of thing,

1045
00:51:05,201 --> 00:51:08,561
Speaker 4: and happy stories don't rate, you know, and all this

1046
00:51:08,681 --> 00:51:11,001
Speaker 4: type of stuff, and to be able to stir up conflict,

1047
00:51:11,041 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 4: as I say, is much more commercial. And I guess

1048
00:51:13,561 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 4: over my years of doing this, you know, I guess

1049
00:51:15,441 --> 00:51:16,881
Speaker 4: I've seen that I've been part of it from time

1050
00:51:16,921 --> 00:51:17,241
Speaker 4: to time.

1051
00:51:17,281 --> 00:51:20,041
Speaker 1: But you have your own journey in life, you have

1052
00:51:20,041 --> 00:51:22,201
Speaker 1: your own children, and you want to be proud of

1053
00:51:22,321 --> 00:51:22,921
Speaker 1: what you've done.

1054
00:51:23,521 --> 00:51:26,121
Speaker 4: And I find myself more and more, you know, I

1055
00:51:26,121 --> 00:51:29,681
Speaker 4: want to get away from the stereotypical media stories about

1056
00:51:29,681 --> 00:51:32,401
Speaker 4: crime and get to ones that you know, particularly, I'm

1057
00:51:32,401 --> 00:51:35,241
Speaker 4: really happy when there's no other journalists around what I'm doing,

1058
00:51:35,281 --> 00:51:35,521
Speaker 4: you know.

1059
00:51:35,601 --> 00:51:37,881
Speaker 1: And I found all the time in the clubs there

1060
00:51:37,921 --> 00:51:39,801
Speaker 1: was never any other journalists. They didn't want to be there.

1061
00:51:39,921 --> 00:51:40,961
Speaker 1: It was too hard, you know.

1062
00:51:41,001 --> 00:51:42,761
Speaker 4: And I found it was challenging because you'd be in

1063
00:51:42,761 --> 00:51:45,841
Speaker 4: clubhouses with people at functions and whatnot and all this

1064
00:51:45,881 --> 00:51:49,081
Speaker 4: sort of things, and no matter how much you felt

1065
00:51:49,161 --> 00:51:51,361
Speaker 4: you were welcome, there was always one bloke in the room.

1066
00:51:51,281 --> 00:51:52,641
Speaker 1: Was giving you the dagger eyes.

1067
00:51:52,761 --> 00:51:55,041
Speaker 4: And my attitude was I got and say get I made,

1068
00:51:55,041 --> 00:51:58,921
Speaker 4: I'm Adam Shann let's talk, you know, and usually usually

1069
00:51:59,321 --> 00:52:00,521
Speaker 4: it worked out pretty well.

1070
00:52:00,721 --> 00:52:01,601
Speaker 1: And I just feel like.

1071
00:52:01,521 --> 00:52:03,001
Speaker 4: A lot a lot of journalists don't want to get

1072
00:52:03,001 --> 00:52:05,361
Speaker 4: out into the field anymore. They have to stay in

1073
00:52:05,361 --> 00:52:07,641
Speaker 4: the office and churn it out. So they're going to

1074
00:52:07,641 --> 00:52:10,081
Speaker 4: take an easy, easy grab and just go with that.

1075
00:52:10,561 --> 00:52:13,081
Speaker 4: And it's a real shame because I think, over my

1076
00:52:13,521 --> 00:52:17,681
Speaker 4: I've had a fantastic life, full of adventure, full of intrigue,

1077
00:52:17,721 --> 00:52:21,761
Speaker 4: full of challenges, and hundreds of thousands of high value

1078
00:52:21,801 --> 00:52:24,481
Speaker 4: conversations the people that I respect, and I've got to

1079
00:52:24,681 --> 00:52:27,001
Speaker 4: I've got to cast the characters I drag around behind me,

1080
00:52:27,081 --> 00:52:29,401
Speaker 4: you know. And I've actually got a little posted in

1081
00:52:29,401 --> 00:52:32,201
Speaker 4: the wall it says completion. There's about half a dozen

1082
00:52:32,281 --> 00:52:36,161
Speaker 4: cases missing persons or murders or whatever that I want

1083
00:52:36,161 --> 00:52:38,440
Speaker 4: to keep talking about as much as I possibly can.

1084
00:52:38,681 --> 00:52:40,521
Speaker 4: And the new series Real Crumb, that bit of a

1085
00:52:40,561 --> 00:52:42,841
Speaker 4: plug here, The real series, Real Cryme with Adam Sham

1086
00:52:43,121 --> 00:52:44,960
Speaker 4: is going to go into that sort of stuff. It's

1087
00:52:44,961 --> 00:52:48,201
Speaker 4: not going to be those stereotypical things. And like I've

1088
00:52:48,201 --> 00:52:50,761
Speaker 4: seen so many journalists become. You know, there was a

1089
00:52:50,761 --> 00:52:54,721
Speaker 4: book called dead Man Running about your club. Yes, yes, yes,

1090
00:52:55,081 --> 00:52:58,001
Speaker 4: it was absolute bullshit. It was was absolute bullshit.

1091
00:52:58,721 --> 00:53:02,041
Speaker 3: I just yeah, I shook my head because I was

1092
00:53:02,161 --> 00:53:03,841
Speaker 3: in the club when they brought that out, and I

1093
00:53:03,881 --> 00:53:04,721
Speaker 3: was like, what the fuck?

1094
00:53:04,801 --> 00:53:06,761
Speaker 1: I'd they've even met the bloke and I've been in

1095
00:53:06,801 --> 00:53:10,921
Speaker 1: the club. Whatever happened to him? Fuck the find who's

1096
00:53:10,961 --> 00:53:13,241
Speaker 1: Johnny Utah? No? Hilarious, you know, And.

1097
00:53:13,241 --> 00:53:16,801
Speaker 4: That book sold so many copies, I'm telling you, you know,

1098
00:53:17,281 --> 00:53:19,881
Speaker 4: because it in reinforced the stereotypes.

1099
00:53:19,921 --> 00:53:22,561
Speaker 1: You know, you don't go broke pushing that. But you know,

1100
00:53:22,561 --> 00:53:24,321
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, have you done anything worthwhile?

1101
00:53:24,401 --> 00:53:26,041
Speaker 4: You know, you look at the end of your life

1102
00:53:26,201 --> 00:53:29,161
Speaker 4: and here you're you're forty nine, right, you're actually a

1103
00:53:29,201 --> 00:53:31,561
Speaker 4: young man. You think you're so ancient, Right, you've been

1104
00:53:31,601 --> 00:53:34,721
Speaker 4: through all his experiences in jailor everything else. But your

1105
00:53:34,841 --> 00:53:38,161
Speaker 4: greatest moments could just be ahead right where all this

1106
00:53:38,281 --> 00:53:42,241
Speaker 4: comes together and you're able to not carry the backpack

1107
00:53:42,281 --> 00:53:46,001
Speaker 4: of regret and anger and the stuff that's happened to you.

1108
00:53:46,161 --> 00:53:48,041
Speaker 4: And if you can drop that off, I'm telling you

1109
00:53:48,041 --> 00:53:48,841
Speaker 4: you can do anything.

1110
00:53:49,161 --> 00:53:49,321
Speaker 1: You know.

1111
00:53:49,481 --> 00:53:50,921
Speaker 4: I think that's the why I asked in my life

1112
00:53:50,961 --> 00:53:52,881
Speaker 4: is I've been very lucky to be able to go

1113
00:53:52,921 --> 00:53:56,201
Speaker 4: from one thing. And I'm really grateful to Jay who's

1114
00:53:56,561 --> 00:53:59,641
Speaker 4: helped me get this podcast up as well, because he

1115
00:53:59,721 --> 00:54:04,121
Speaker 4: understands the criminal world and you know, the storytelling aspect

1116
00:54:04,201 --> 00:54:06,641
Speaker 4: of it, and I think it's an am You've done

1117
00:54:06,641 --> 00:54:08,841
Speaker 4: an amazing thing, and I really I'm very proud of you, actually,

1118
00:54:08,841 --> 00:54:10,721
Speaker 4: because I used to get very proud of people I

1119
00:54:10,801 --> 00:54:13,281
Speaker 4: met in the club scene who had the insight, you know,

1120
00:54:13,841 --> 00:54:17,041
Speaker 4: into their lives, you know, and they realized that I've

1121
00:54:17,041 --> 00:54:19,601
Speaker 4: always been told about Oh you've got to be rehabilitated.

1122
00:54:19,721 --> 00:54:21,961
Speaker 1: They go, hang on, I've never been habilitated.

1123
00:54:22,321 --> 00:54:24,721
Speaker 4: I came from a situation where, you know, I never

1124
00:54:24,761 --> 00:54:29,321
Speaker 4: had anything that's resembled a stable, safe home life. I

1125
00:54:29,361 --> 00:54:31,921
Speaker 4: had to fight from day one, you know, I had

1126
00:54:31,921 --> 00:54:32,841
Speaker 4: to suffer all these things.

1127
00:54:32,841 --> 00:54:35,681
Speaker 1: I've never been habilitated. So let's talk about that.

1128
00:54:35,881 --> 00:54:37,761
Speaker 3: And the thing is too, Adam, you know, like I

1129
00:54:37,841 --> 00:54:40,561
Speaker 3: as a father, I've had to learn to be a father.

1130
00:54:40,761 --> 00:54:43,641
Speaker 3: You know, I made mistakes as a father with my

1131
00:54:43,721 --> 00:54:46,921
Speaker 3: oldest son, twenty six year old young man, who's an

1132
00:54:46,961 --> 00:54:50,761
Speaker 3: amazing young man who unfortunately our relationship is quite distant.

1133
00:54:50,961 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 3: And that's okay, that's his choice. It breaks my heart,

1134
00:54:53,481 --> 00:54:55,961
Speaker 3: but I'll never give up and never stop trying. But

1135
00:54:56,081 --> 00:54:58,401
Speaker 3: learning from that was to not make that same mistake

1136
00:54:58,481 --> 00:55:01,041
Speaker 3: with mother three children, you know, and I have been

1137
00:55:01,081 --> 00:55:04,961
Speaker 3: a very present father and vowed to you know, not

1138
00:55:05,161 --> 00:55:08,801
Speaker 3: to go ever back down those roads. I don't need to,

1139
00:55:09,321 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 3: you know, I don't regret it. I don't regret any

1140
00:55:12,041 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 3: part of where I am. I wouldn't be here talking

1141
00:55:14,441 --> 00:55:16,241
Speaker 3: to you if I did like it. Just that's life,

1142
00:55:16,561 --> 00:55:19,201
Speaker 3: you know, They're the cards I was dealt with there

1143
00:55:19,281 --> 00:55:22,761
Speaker 3: wasn't some nice times. There were some really fucking shit times.

1144
00:55:22,801 --> 00:55:25,881
Speaker 3: There were some tough experiences. There was life and death situations,

1145
00:55:27,281 --> 00:55:29,321
Speaker 3: But hey, you know, I've been kissed on the dick

1146
00:55:29,361 --> 00:55:30,961
Speaker 3: a few times, and at the end of the day,

1147
00:55:31,001 --> 00:55:34,281
Speaker 3: I'm I'm okay with who I am. You know, I

1148
00:55:34,321 --> 00:55:36,641
Speaker 3: don't hold any skeletons in my closet. There's always going

1149
00:55:36,681 --> 00:55:38,321
Speaker 3: to be people out there that've got something negative to

1150
00:55:38,361 --> 00:55:40,121
Speaker 3: say about It. Doesn't matter what you do or how

1151
00:55:40,161 --> 00:55:42,281
Speaker 3: good you are, what you try and change about you,

1152
00:55:42,841 --> 00:55:45,161
Speaker 3: Someone's always going to pull you apart and still look

1153
00:55:45,201 --> 00:55:47,241
Speaker 3: at you like you're a piece of shit, or say

1154
00:55:47,281 --> 00:55:49,681
Speaker 3: you're a fucking dog because you talked on a podcast

1155
00:55:49,721 --> 00:55:52,521
Speaker 3: to you a journalist, or like fuck off whatever.

1156
00:55:53,081 --> 00:55:53,361
Speaker 1: Mate.

1157
00:55:53,401 --> 00:55:56,321
Speaker 3: At the end of the day, I'm still who I was.

1158
00:55:56,761 --> 00:55:59,001
Speaker 3: I choose to be a better man. I choose to

1159
00:55:59,041 --> 00:56:01,281
Speaker 3: be a better human. I choose to be compassion I

1160
00:56:01,361 --> 00:56:04,801
Speaker 3: choose to care. I choose to want to live a better, at, cleaner,

1161
00:56:05,161 --> 00:56:07,961
Speaker 3: healthier life for the future of me and my children.

1162
00:56:08,121 --> 00:56:09,801
Speaker 3: Because I can assure you now i'd be still in

1163
00:56:09,881 --> 00:56:12,881
Speaker 3: jail doing life or dead. My children wouldn't be existing,

1164
00:56:13,001 --> 00:56:15,041
Speaker 3: or they wouldn't have a father, the ones that were here.

1165
00:56:15,121 --> 00:56:19,161
Speaker 3: So that's the reality of it, really plain and simple.

1166
00:56:19,881 --> 00:56:24,561
Speaker 3: Now I still have great mates. Well when I say

1167
00:56:24,601 --> 00:56:26,081
Speaker 3: great man, I don't talk to them all the time,

1168
00:56:26,081 --> 00:56:28,601
Speaker 3: but if I've seen them, there'd be no issues. I

1169
00:56:28,641 --> 00:56:30,841
Speaker 3: can still shake hands and have a hug. And you know,

1170
00:56:30,961 --> 00:56:33,881
Speaker 3: if I wanted to have a beer, I'm welcomer. Those

1171
00:56:33,921 --> 00:56:37,361
Speaker 3: things will always be there. If that ever sort of

1172
00:56:37,401 --> 00:56:39,081
Speaker 3: popped up, you know what I mean, or was ever

1173
00:56:39,121 --> 00:56:41,841
Speaker 3: in a position where we were bumped into each other,

1174
00:56:41,841 --> 00:56:45,440
Speaker 3: whatever it might be. But do I choose to live

1175
00:56:45,481 --> 00:56:45,921
Speaker 3: that life?

1176
00:56:45,961 --> 00:56:48,801
Speaker 1: No? And do I want to live a.

1177
00:56:48,681 --> 00:56:50,681
Speaker 3: Good life and a happy life and a life that

1178
00:56:50,761 --> 00:56:52,201
Speaker 3: fulfills me and my family.

1179
00:56:52,481 --> 00:56:53,161
Speaker 1: Absolutely.

1180
00:56:53,241 --> 00:56:56,161
Speaker 3: One thing I've learned and you'll relate to this because

1181
00:56:56,161 --> 00:56:57,561
Speaker 3: you were around.

1182
00:56:57,601 --> 00:56:58,641
Speaker 1: I'd sit there with three.

1183
00:56:58,641 --> 00:57:01,961
Speaker 3: Or four phones at one stage there for all different

1184
00:57:01,961 --> 00:57:04,001
Speaker 3: reasons and purposes. And back in the day, that's do

1185
00:57:04,041 --> 00:57:05,801
Speaker 3: you just sit at a table to talk in your phone?

1186
00:57:05,841 --> 00:57:07,960
Speaker 3: To be just sitting there wanted ring, wonder ring, I'd

1187
00:57:08,001 --> 00:57:10,921
Speaker 3: be on a plane overseas within twenty four hours, like

1188
00:57:11,041 --> 00:57:12,480
Speaker 3: it just I'd be in another state.

1189
00:57:12,521 --> 00:57:16,001
Speaker 1: I'd be nothing, no one by love you. I see

1190
00:57:16,001 --> 00:57:16,641
Speaker 1: when I get home.

1191
00:57:16,721 --> 00:57:21,801
Speaker 3: That's it, bagpack gone, that's it, full stop, nothing more said.

1192
00:57:22,441 --> 00:57:26,681
Speaker 3: So learning to understand yourself, realizing that it's just you.

1193
00:57:27,321 --> 00:57:29,481
Speaker 1: No one gives a fuck the end of the day.

1194
00:57:29,561 --> 00:57:30,561
Speaker 1: You are on your own.

1195
00:57:30,681 --> 00:57:33,721
Speaker 3: No one's coming to savior, and you've got to live

1196
00:57:33,761 --> 00:57:36,921
Speaker 3: with purpose, my purpose, my children and my family and

1197
00:57:37,161 --> 00:57:40,761
Speaker 3: doing what I'm passionate about, which is delivering these podcasts

1198
00:57:40,801 --> 00:57:42,561
Speaker 3: and working very hard in a small business that I'm

1199
00:57:42,561 --> 00:57:45,841
Speaker 3: trying to build as well, and pressure cleaning. There's always

1200
00:57:46,321 --> 00:57:49,721
Speaker 3: room for improvement, but you've just got to try and

1201
00:57:50,361 --> 00:57:55,041
Speaker 3: find that acceptance within yourself. I miss having a brotherhood,

1202
00:57:55,081 --> 00:57:56,481
Speaker 3: But do I miss the politics?

1203
00:57:57,361 --> 00:57:58,721
Speaker 1: Do I miss the target on my back?

1204
00:57:58,841 --> 00:58:00,841
Speaker 3: No? Do I miss my door getting kicked in? Not

1205
00:58:00,961 --> 00:58:02,961
Speaker 3: a minute of it. You know, when all this shit

1206
00:58:03,041 --> 00:58:04,721
Speaker 3: went down, my kids were there. You know, they come

1207
00:58:04,761 --> 00:58:05,561
Speaker 3: in ushah.

1208
00:58:05,761 --> 00:58:08,761
Speaker 1: Fuck. Would I ever wish that upon my children?

1209
00:58:08,801 --> 00:58:13,081
Speaker 3: And I've always been a little bit sort of I

1210
00:58:13,121 --> 00:58:17,201
Speaker 3: found it hard to understand the generational thing within clubs.

1211
00:58:17,681 --> 00:58:22,641
Speaker 3: I get it, but I just wouldn't want my children

1212
00:58:22,881 --> 00:58:25,841
Speaker 3: to go through that life and live that life. And

1213
00:58:25,881 --> 00:58:28,961
Speaker 3: that's not bagging anybody that makes those second or third

1214
00:58:29,001 --> 00:58:32,801
Speaker 3: generational choices. That's the way they choose to live me personally,

1215
00:58:33,321 --> 00:58:35,921
Speaker 3: that was my choice. That wasn't my children's choice. My

1216
00:58:36,041 --> 00:58:40,081
Speaker 3: children's opportunities in this world are fucking so much greater

1217
00:58:40,121 --> 00:58:40,961
Speaker 3: than mine ever were.

1218
00:58:41,521 --> 00:58:43,041
Speaker 1: They've got stability, they've got.

1219
00:58:42,881 --> 00:58:44,681
Speaker 3: A home, they've got mom and dad to their love,

1220
00:58:44,721 --> 00:58:46,881
Speaker 3: they've got three good meals on the table, clothes on

1221
00:58:46,921 --> 00:58:47,321
Speaker 3: their back.

1222
00:58:47,441 --> 00:58:50,881
Speaker 1: You know, they're safe. I didn't have any of that.

1223
00:58:51,841 --> 00:58:53,521
Speaker 3: Mine was to get out there and fair for yourself

1224
00:58:53,521 --> 00:58:54,681
Speaker 3: and hope the fuck you survive.

1225
00:58:55,161 --> 00:58:56,881
Speaker 1: Yeah, you want to live it. You want your kids

1226
00:58:56,921 --> 00:58:58,361
Speaker 1: to live a better life than you did.

1227
00:58:58,401 --> 00:58:58,601
Speaker 6: You know.

1228
00:58:59,001 --> 00:59:01,721
Speaker 4: One of my favorite old time crooks like called Wee

1229
00:59:01,801 --> 00:59:04,241
Speaker 4: Jimmy Lloyd, who was one of the best shoplifters you've

1230
00:59:04,241 --> 00:59:06,961
Speaker 4: ever heard to Britain in the sixties and robbed all

1231
00:59:06,961 --> 00:59:09,361
Speaker 4: the big stores with a bunch of called the Kangaroo Gang. Right,

1232
00:59:09,761 --> 00:59:13,161
Speaker 4: and Wee Jimmy never spent he had his first shilling, right,

1233
00:59:13,401 --> 00:59:15,481
Speaker 4: he saved it all because he was always going to

1234
00:59:15,481 --> 00:59:17,721
Speaker 4: put it into the education of his two sons who

1235
00:59:17,721 --> 00:59:20,281
Speaker 4: are now like investment bankers or something, you know, high

1236
00:59:20,361 --> 00:59:21,041
Speaker 4: flying types.

1237
00:59:21,121 --> 00:59:22,241
Speaker 1: You know, So he.

1238
00:59:22,121 --> 00:59:25,321
Speaker 4: Wasn't trying to create a multi generational Crime dynasty. He

1239
00:59:25,361 --> 00:59:27,921
Speaker 4: was just trying to do better than his father had done,

1240
00:59:27,961 --> 00:59:29,801
Speaker 4: and his kids were going to do better as well.

1241
00:59:30,001 --> 00:59:31,961
Speaker 4: That's what you want, you know. I'm sorry you're blooming

1242
00:59:31,961 --> 00:59:34,241
Speaker 4: with his son. I'd love to see you guys get together.

1243
00:59:34,241 --> 00:59:36,281
Speaker 4: I'm actually bloomed my son at the money. He's thirty two,

1244
00:59:36,761 --> 00:59:39,481
Speaker 4: and you know, he's just a beautiful guy, you know,

1245
00:59:39,761 --> 00:59:41,681
Speaker 4: and he's actually mixed martial arts fighter. So I've got

1246
00:59:41,721 --> 00:59:43,081
Speaker 4: to be careful what I say to him, you nobody,

1247
00:59:43,321 --> 00:59:46,841
Speaker 4: but he's very at of restraint. But to talk about

1248
00:59:46,841 --> 00:59:50,001
Speaker 4: this and life has lived in chapters, particularly as men,

1249
00:59:50,121 --> 00:59:52,201
Speaker 4: you know. And I've seen a lot of people over

1250
00:59:52,321 --> 00:59:55,201
Speaker 4: my time writing crime who've been in the criminal justice system.

1251
00:59:55,401 --> 00:59:57,161
Speaker 4: They get to forty forty five and they go like,

1252
00:59:57,201 --> 00:59:59,161
Speaker 4: what the actual fuck have I been doing?

1253
00:59:59,201 --> 00:59:59,401
Speaker 1: You know?

1254
00:59:59,801 --> 01:00:02,161
Speaker 4: And some of them can make that change, others curve,

1255
01:00:02,521 --> 01:00:05,001
Speaker 4: but there is that moment of like, I don't need

1256
01:00:05,161 --> 01:00:07,841
Speaker 4: to be doing this anymore. And I think, also, you know,

1257
01:00:07,841 --> 01:00:09,641
Speaker 4: I got to be careful with this. But I often

1258
01:00:09,641 --> 01:00:12,201
Speaker 4: hear this sort of this word brother thrown around, and

1259
01:00:12,241 --> 01:00:14,601
Speaker 4: a lot of brotherhood and hugging and all that kind

1260
01:00:14,641 --> 01:00:17,321
Speaker 4: of stuff, and you know, but I've got a very

1261
01:00:17,361 --> 01:00:20,321
Speaker 4: few friends. I've kept my entire life right, very few,

1262
01:00:20,561 --> 01:00:23,761
Speaker 4: you know, and even less than I would share certain

1263
01:00:23,801 --> 01:00:26,201
Speaker 4: secrets with. And the fact is, you're in the dock

1264
01:00:26,241 --> 01:00:28,481
Speaker 4: on your own. And I see some of these big

1265
01:00:28,521 --> 01:00:30,961
Speaker 4: time crooks running around now. And I was talking to

1266
01:00:30,961 --> 01:00:33,281
Speaker 4: someone this morning who's giving me some information. I must

1267
01:00:33,361 --> 01:00:35,641
Speaker 4: be getting old, Brent, because I had a person called

1268
01:00:35,641 --> 01:00:38,161
Speaker 4: me this morning and said, listen, I've got this really

1269
01:00:38,161 --> 01:00:40,321
Speaker 4: hot information about so and so and so. I said,

1270
01:00:40,601 --> 01:00:43,041
Speaker 4: I fucking don't want it. I just don't want it,

1271
01:00:43,121 --> 01:00:44,761
Speaker 4: you know, Are you kidding me?

1272
01:00:45,041 --> 01:00:45,801
Speaker 1: No, I'm not doing that.

1273
01:00:46,481 --> 01:00:49,681
Speaker 4: And anyway, I said, the person that's going to give

1274
01:00:49,761 --> 01:00:50,881
Speaker 4: them up is sitting right next.

1275
01:00:50,761 --> 01:00:55,001
Speaker 1: To him, now, yeah. Yeah, And that's the reality.

1276
01:00:55,321 --> 01:00:59,001
Speaker 4: So I think you've got to allow yourself to develop

1277
01:00:59,041 --> 01:01:01,921
Speaker 4: and mature as men. I think it's really important. I

1278
01:01:01,921 --> 01:01:04,841
Speaker 4: think maturity is such an issue for many young men

1279
01:01:05,041 --> 01:01:08,321
Speaker 4: see him getting all these terrible situations, and I think

1280
01:01:08,361 --> 01:01:10,881
Speaker 4: what you're doing in terms of mentoring and talking about

1281
01:01:10,921 --> 01:01:14,481
Speaker 4: mental health and just having discussions around maleness and the

1282
01:01:14,561 --> 01:01:18,201
Speaker 4: various aspects of that is really valuable. I think I've

1283
01:01:18,241 --> 01:01:20,721
Speaker 4: been doing a kind of PhD in that myself over

1284
01:01:20,761 --> 01:01:24,001
Speaker 4: the years and having these conversations invariably, you know, trying

1285
01:01:24,001 --> 01:01:26,481
Speaker 4: to offer some useful advice from your own experience.

1286
01:01:26,721 --> 01:01:30,201
Speaker 3: You know, I'm really big at I'm on the look,

1287
01:01:30,241 --> 01:01:32,561
Speaker 3: and I constantly say it. People get sick of it,

1288
01:01:32,601 --> 01:01:37,241
Speaker 3: but it is the truth. Lived experience far out weighs

1289
01:01:37,241 --> 01:01:40,601
Speaker 3: a university degree. You know, I've got a university degree

1290
01:01:40,601 --> 01:01:41,681
Speaker 3: of the streets.

1291
01:01:42,001 --> 01:01:45,281
Speaker 1: And I'm grateful for it.

1292
01:01:45,841 --> 01:01:49,401
Speaker 3: You know, I still have traits and bad habits because

1293
01:01:49,401 --> 01:01:51,361
Speaker 3: they're embedded in me. When I say that, you know,

1294
01:01:51,481 --> 01:01:54,121
Speaker 3: like I'll always be the first one somewhere. You know,

1295
01:01:54,161 --> 01:01:56,401
Speaker 3: I'm that punctual that you won't even know that I've

1296
01:01:56,441 --> 01:01:58,241
Speaker 3: been there, and you know you may supposed to meet

1297
01:01:58,241 --> 01:02:00,721
Speaker 3: me at that time. Well I've been there and I've

1298
01:02:00,761 --> 01:02:03,041
Speaker 3: been waiting for you, and I'm watching every point and

1299
01:02:03,121 --> 01:02:06,201
Speaker 3: angle and like just walk into a room reading a

1300
01:02:06,281 --> 01:02:09,881
Speaker 3: room first thing, scanning the room, understanding who's around, what's around,

1301
01:02:09,881 --> 01:02:10,561
Speaker 3: where are you?

1302
01:02:10,561 --> 01:02:11,241
Speaker 1: You know what I mean.

1303
01:02:11,361 --> 01:02:15,081
Speaker 3: These type of things are embedded. But that goes back

1304
01:02:15,121 --> 01:02:17,201
Speaker 3: to beyond anything to do with club lot. That's just

1305
01:02:17,321 --> 01:02:20,281
Speaker 3: childhood coming up on the streets and you know, survival.

1306
01:02:21,041 --> 01:02:22,361
Speaker 1: It's called hypervigilance.

1307
01:02:22,601 --> 01:02:25,241
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I still to this day. I mean, look,

1308
01:02:25,761 --> 01:02:28,641
Speaker 3: I've lived a crazy life. I'm very blessed to be

1309
01:02:28,681 --> 01:02:30,281
Speaker 3: here at forty nine. I didn't think i'd make it

1310
01:02:30,321 --> 01:02:33,361
Speaker 3: this far now far out. If I walk out of

1311
01:02:33,401 --> 01:02:36,401
Speaker 3: this studio and don't get to my car because someone's

1312
01:02:37,481 --> 01:02:39,561
Speaker 3: wants to put me off, or if it's going to happen,

1313
01:02:39,601 --> 01:02:41,881
Speaker 3: it's going to happen, I can't change it.

1314
01:02:41,921 --> 01:02:44,201
Speaker 1: Is that something I wish saw want No way in

1315
01:02:44,241 --> 01:02:44,641
Speaker 1: the world.

1316
01:02:44,761 --> 01:02:46,001
Speaker 3: I'm going to get in my car and have a

1317
01:02:46,001 --> 01:02:48,361
Speaker 3: safet trip home and go see my kids and make

1318
01:02:48,361 --> 01:02:50,121
Speaker 3: sure my new fucking fridge gets delivered.

1319
01:02:50,281 --> 01:02:52,801
Speaker 1: But anyway, that's another story. Because it didn't get delivered.

1320
01:02:52,881 --> 01:02:56,001
Speaker 1: God not delivered today. That's my biggest worry for the day.

1321
01:02:56,521 --> 01:02:59,961
Speaker 4: But see, there's also randomness to life's experiences too. I

1322
01:03:00,041 --> 01:03:02,961
Speaker 4: call it the falling grand piano syndrome. You can think

1323
01:03:03,001 --> 01:03:05,961
Speaker 4: everything's great in your life, everything's cooling, and suddenly a

1324
01:03:06,041 --> 01:03:09,041
Speaker 4: piano falls on your fucking head, you know, and it

1325
01:03:09,081 --> 01:03:11,641
Speaker 4: can happen, you know, so And the other reality is

1326
01:03:11,681 --> 01:03:14,641
Speaker 4: that ninety percent of what you worry about never happens anyway.

1327
01:03:15,041 --> 01:03:17,401
Speaker 4: But there's one certainly in life that does come to

1328
01:03:17,441 --> 01:03:20,201
Speaker 4: an end. So I think you've got to not put

1329
01:03:20,241 --> 01:03:22,681
Speaker 4: off those moments like making it better with your son.

1330
01:03:22,881 --> 01:03:24,601
Speaker 4: I'd love to see that happen, by the way, you know,

1331
01:03:24,641 --> 01:03:25,841
Speaker 4: I'm sure there's a way to do that.

1332
01:03:25,961 --> 01:03:27,801
Speaker 1: You know. Look, I'll never give up.

1333
01:03:27,801 --> 01:03:29,801
Speaker 3: And that's something that you know, I obviously say to

1334
01:03:29,841 --> 01:03:32,001
Speaker 3: a lot of people to in this similar situation, and

1335
01:03:32,041 --> 01:03:34,881
Speaker 3: it's very relevant. Keep sending the messages, keep making the

1336
01:03:34,881 --> 01:03:38,041
Speaker 3: calls that don't get in its, just keep acknowledging, sending

1337
01:03:38,041 --> 01:03:41,041
Speaker 3: that I love you, thinking of you. And look, there's

1338
01:03:41,041 --> 01:03:44,001
Speaker 3: been moments there where he's reached out. It's been beautiful,

1339
01:03:44,041 --> 01:03:46,441
Speaker 3: you know. But then, like I say, he's his own man.

1340
01:03:46,601 --> 01:03:50,041
Speaker 3: I respect that. There's obviously a lot of traumas there

1341
01:03:50,241 --> 01:03:53,001
Speaker 3: of me not being present and making wrong choices and

1342
01:03:54,561 --> 01:03:57,321
Speaker 3: not being a dad as I should have been. And

1343
01:03:57,481 --> 01:03:59,881
Speaker 3: I get it, and I sort of feel he probably,

1344
01:04:00,521 --> 01:04:03,521
Speaker 3: you know, finds it hard looking at his three siblings

1345
01:04:03,841 --> 01:04:05,921
Speaker 3: and how I am with them as opposed to why

1346
01:04:06,041 --> 01:04:07,121
Speaker 3: wasn't I like that with him?

1347
01:04:07,321 --> 01:04:10,201
Speaker 1: And you know, that's just my observation, and I get

1348
01:04:10,241 --> 01:04:10,601
Speaker 1: it and I.

1349
01:04:10,561 --> 01:04:14,521
Speaker 3: Respect it, and he's right, you know, I wasn't well

1350
01:04:14,761 --> 01:04:16,681
Speaker 3: you know, not to justify it. And that was life

1351
01:04:16,801 --> 01:04:19,721
Speaker 3: I needed to learn and unfortunately it cost me dealing

1352
01:04:19,801 --> 01:04:24,041
Speaker 3: in that respect. So we all have to go through

1353
01:04:24,041 --> 01:04:27,641
Speaker 3: things in life to find growth. And I feel that sometimes,

1354
01:04:27,681 --> 01:04:30,521
Speaker 3: you know, whether you want to admit it or not.

1355
01:04:30,601 --> 01:04:33,201
Speaker 3: And people say, you know, God gives the toughest challenge

1356
01:04:33,361 --> 01:04:37,281
Speaker 3: only the strongest people. Well yeah, okay, I can accept

1357
01:04:37,281 --> 01:04:40,361
Speaker 3: that too, But sometimes you do sit back and you go, fuck,

1358
01:04:40,401 --> 01:04:42,681
Speaker 3: when when can I just have a break? When can

1359
01:04:42,721 --> 01:04:45,481
Speaker 3: I breathe and just just enjoy me and enjoy what

1360
01:04:45,521 --> 01:04:47,801
Speaker 3: I have in life and be humble and happy? You know,

1361
01:04:48,721 --> 01:04:50,601
Speaker 3: Like I said, you know, I choose to be the

1362
01:04:50,641 --> 01:04:53,041
Speaker 3: man I am today. I choose to be here right

1363
01:04:53,081 --> 01:04:57,961
Speaker 3: in this moment. I choose to have probably two mates.

1364
01:04:58,641 --> 01:05:01,881
Speaker 3: You know, my phone doesn't ring unless it's for unless

1365
01:05:01,881 --> 01:05:04,681
Speaker 3: it's someone chasing money or for a client for work,

1366
01:05:05,241 --> 01:05:07,561
Speaker 3: it doesn't ring. And it used to bother me because

1367
01:05:07,601 --> 01:05:09,761
Speaker 3: I went from so many years of just you know,

1368
01:05:09,801 --> 01:05:11,961
Speaker 3: every day there was something to do, brother to hang with,

1369
01:05:12,041 --> 01:05:16,201
Speaker 3: you know, whatever. It was always something going on. I

1370
01:05:16,241 --> 01:05:18,641
Speaker 3: wouldn't know what Arthur and Martha are doing if there

1371
01:05:18,681 --> 01:05:22,441
Speaker 3: was no Instagram from on data the next because I

1372
01:05:22,481 --> 01:05:25,601
Speaker 3: don't get in righted anywhere, no one calls, no one

1373
01:05:25,681 --> 01:05:28,281
Speaker 3: checks in. It's like you just get to the point

1374
01:05:28,361 --> 01:05:30,521
Speaker 3: you go, well, you know what matters. What matters is

1375
01:05:31,441 --> 01:05:36,481
Speaker 3: my people, my family, my children, you know. And you

1376
01:05:36,481 --> 01:05:38,521
Speaker 3: would have seen that over your years, the amount of

1377
01:05:38,521 --> 01:05:42,201
Speaker 3: commitment that, oh, for sure gets put into you know,

1378
01:05:42,361 --> 01:05:44,841
Speaker 3: the underworld or that way of life for you know,

1379
01:05:45,041 --> 01:05:45,961
Speaker 3: the club life.

1380
01:05:46,041 --> 01:05:48,641
Speaker 1: It really is. It's it's big.

1381
01:05:48,721 --> 01:05:50,521
Speaker 3: And if you want to live that single life, and

1382
01:05:50,561 --> 01:05:52,481
Speaker 3: if that's the life you choose, then hey, I mean

1383
01:05:52,521 --> 01:05:56,041
Speaker 3: I'm not to judge anybody by any means. That's individually

1384
01:05:56,121 --> 01:06:00,601
Speaker 3: your choice. These are my choices and for me, I'm

1385
01:06:00,641 --> 01:06:01,961
Speaker 3: happy with that right now.

1386
01:06:02,081 --> 01:06:04,761
Speaker 4: So well, and I think also you're touching so many

1387
01:06:04,761 --> 01:06:11,521
Speaker 4: people like I dare say to this, yeah, not like that,

1388
01:06:12,721 --> 01:06:13,801
Speaker 4: touching their hearts, my.

1389
01:06:13,681 --> 01:06:16,761
Speaker 1: Friend, I accept that one. Thank you for correcting.

1390
01:06:18,561 --> 01:06:20,521
Speaker 4: But I mean, dare I say to your son's probably

1391
01:06:20,561 --> 01:06:23,241
Speaker 4: listening to this, you know, if I regret to him,

1392
01:06:23,561 --> 01:06:25,641
Speaker 4: you know, give the old amount of break, you know,

1393
01:06:26,441 --> 01:06:27,561
Speaker 4: you know, give him a break and.

1394
01:06:27,921 --> 01:06:28,961
Speaker 1: Find that common ground.

1395
01:06:29,001 --> 01:06:30,961
Speaker 4: And I think that's what I've always I've loved these

1396
01:06:30,961 --> 01:06:33,361
Speaker 4: conversations over the years of people you know, and you

1397
01:06:33,521 --> 01:06:36,801
Speaker 4: try to play a positive role in people's lives, you know,

1398
01:06:36,881 --> 01:06:39,241
Speaker 4: and particularly those from the underworld. One great story that's

1399
01:06:39,241 --> 01:06:41,681
Speaker 4: coming up in our series. Actually, but I was in

1400
01:06:41,721 --> 01:06:44,441
Speaker 4: an antique store in South normOn. I've actually watching that.

1401
01:06:44,641 --> 01:06:47,161
Speaker 4: I collect vintage watches, you know, I've got each of them.

1402
01:06:47,321 --> 01:06:50,041
Speaker 4: Oh wow, I love them, you know. I mean this

1403
01:06:51,121 --> 01:06:53,241
Speaker 4: antique store and a lady rushes and said you're out,

1404
01:06:53,281 --> 01:06:55,321
Speaker 4: and I said yeah. She said, well, you know, I

1405
01:06:55,401 --> 01:06:57,841
Speaker 4: come from the underworld. I was one of four sisters.

1406
01:06:57,841 --> 01:07:00,241
Speaker 4: Three of them died to heroin. I've been right to

1407
01:07:00,281 --> 01:07:02,641
Speaker 4: the mill. I was almost stabbed to death by my partner.

1408
01:07:02,921 --> 01:07:05,081
Speaker 4: I was a witness protection La la la Lah. I

1409
01:07:05,081 --> 01:07:06,721
Speaker 4: want to tell my story. So as we're telling it,

1410
01:07:06,761 --> 01:07:08,601
Speaker 4: she says, Oh, by the way, my father was a copper.

1411
01:07:09,361 --> 01:07:10,001
Speaker 1: Are you serious.

1412
01:07:10,001 --> 01:07:12,081
Speaker 4: He said, yeah, like mum was with this crook and

1413
01:07:12,561 --> 01:07:14,361
Speaker 4: the copper come to arrest in put him in jail.

1414
01:07:14,601 --> 01:07:15,841
Speaker 1: The copper moved in on my mum.

1415
01:07:15,921 --> 01:07:18,241
Speaker 4: I was the product, and the crook gets out of jail,

1416
01:07:18,441 --> 01:07:21,641
Speaker 4: comes after the copper. He disappears to Western Australia, never

1417
01:07:21,641 --> 01:07:22,441
Speaker 4: to be seen again.

1418
01:07:22,721 --> 01:07:25,721
Speaker 1: I said, has anybody tried to find him? She says no.

1419
01:07:25,761 --> 01:07:27,281
Speaker 1: I said, well, give me five minutes. I call.

1420
01:07:27,321 --> 01:07:29,201
Speaker 4: But my old mates who are in the same era.

1421
01:07:29,441 --> 01:07:30,841
Speaker 4: Of course, we found him in half an hour.

1422
01:07:30,961 --> 01:07:31,161
Speaker 1: You know.

1423
01:07:31,241 --> 01:07:33,161
Speaker 7: I ring up and say, mate, I've just been with

1424
01:07:33,201 --> 01:07:35,081
Speaker 7: your daughter. He's got like, I haven't got to do.

1425
01:07:35,121 --> 01:07:37,361
Speaker 7: I said, yes, you do, Yes you do. I'm not

1426
01:07:37,401 --> 01:07:39,401
Speaker 7: going to go away till you admit it, right, you go. Sure,

1427
01:07:39,521 --> 01:07:41,841
Speaker 7: And he admitted it, and they got and they got reunited.

1428
01:07:42,001 --> 01:07:44,321
Speaker 7: People ask me, like, what are the stories that I

1429
01:07:44,361 --> 01:07:46,441
Speaker 7: love most. Those are the kind of yarns that I

1430
01:07:46,561 --> 01:07:47,081
Speaker 7: like the most.

1431
01:07:47,161 --> 01:07:51,161
Speaker 4: I love that because you've made that singular impact on

1432
01:07:51,161 --> 01:07:52,841
Speaker 4: one person's entire world.

1433
01:07:52,881 --> 01:07:56,401
Speaker 3: And that's a life, that's a life that's life changing.

1434
01:07:56,801 --> 01:08:00,561
Speaker 3: It is, you know, And that's somebody who actually takes

1435
01:08:00,601 --> 01:08:01,441
Speaker 3: pride in the job.

1436
01:08:02,001 --> 01:08:04,361
Speaker 4: Got it out at the moment where a lady who

1437
01:08:04,481 --> 01:08:07,681
Speaker 4: was abused her stepfather for three years from eight till eleven,

1438
01:08:07,881 --> 01:08:10,401
Speaker 4: the mother actually put her in foster care because she

1439
01:08:10,401 --> 01:08:11,441
Speaker 4: wanted to save her marriage.

1440
01:08:11,481 --> 01:08:12,241
Speaker 1: Right, you imagine that.

1441
01:08:12,761 --> 01:08:15,481
Speaker 4: And the guy was he was arrested at the time

1442
01:08:15,521 --> 01:08:18,720
Speaker 4: because the school got involved and they actually questioned him.

1443
01:08:18,801 --> 01:08:19,521
Speaker 1: He was let off.

1444
01:08:19,601 --> 01:08:22,081
Speaker 4: Right, Nothing happens for years and years and years, she's

1445
01:08:22,121 --> 01:08:25,601
Speaker 4: putting her mother in care because you got dementia, goes

1446
01:08:25,601 --> 01:08:28,801
Speaker 4: through the house, finds the entire file, right, and she's

1447
01:08:28,841 --> 01:08:30,121
Speaker 4: called me and said, what do I do it?

1448
01:08:30,121 --> 01:08:31,481
Speaker 1: I said, we go fucking hard.

1449
01:08:31,481 --> 01:08:33,841
Speaker 4: That's what we do, you know, And you know, getting

1450
01:08:33,881 --> 01:08:36,761
Speaker 4: the cops involved, find the offender. He's still around, you know,

1451
01:08:37,001 --> 01:08:39,841
Speaker 4: So these things you can do more than you think.

1452
01:08:40,041 --> 01:08:42,561
Speaker 4: And I think the power of conversation, the power of

1453
01:08:42,601 --> 01:08:45,401
Speaker 4: talking to people, the power of taking action in your

1454
01:08:45,401 --> 01:08:48,401
Speaker 4: life is so profound. And I see a lot of crooks.

1455
01:08:48,881 --> 01:08:52,121
Speaker 4: You talk about people having life of regret in their marked,

1456
01:08:52,401 --> 01:08:54,841
Speaker 4: you know, because of what they've done. You can change it,

1457
01:08:55,041 --> 01:08:58,201
Speaker 4: you know. I've seen some extraordinary transformations.

1458
01:08:58,481 --> 01:08:59,201
Speaker 1: You definitely can.

1459
01:08:59,241 --> 01:09:01,920
Speaker 3: And I think as long as you remain headstrong about

1460
01:09:02,041 --> 01:09:03,841
Speaker 3: what it is that you truly want to do and

1461
01:09:04,201 --> 01:09:07,720
Speaker 3: you don't bullsh it yourself, then you can achieve anything.

1462
01:09:07,841 --> 01:09:12,641
Speaker 3: And look, I I love what I do with this platform,

1463
01:09:13,001 --> 01:09:14,721
Speaker 3: you know, like I keep it as raw as real,

1464
01:09:14,761 --> 01:09:16,561
Speaker 3: and like I say, there's people out there that have

1465
01:09:16,601 --> 01:09:19,361
Speaker 3: got I don't like it. Change the fucking channel, Like

1466
01:09:19,401 --> 01:09:21,041
Speaker 3: you don't have to be here. I'm not asking it

1467
01:09:21,081 --> 01:09:23,680
Speaker 3: to be here. I appreciate everybody that takes an interest.

1468
01:09:24,241 --> 01:09:25,801
Speaker 3: But if you don't like what you hear or you've

1469
01:09:25,801 --> 01:09:28,361
Speaker 3: got something negative say, then fuck off. Like there's other

1470
01:09:28,401 --> 01:09:31,800
Speaker 3: people you might be interested in elsewhere. That's where we're different.

1471
01:09:32,161 --> 01:09:34,001
Speaker 3: I want if they hate it, that have to stay listening.

1472
01:09:34,361 --> 01:09:37,561
Speaker 1: I want to stay listening because you can't be all

1473
01:09:37,601 --> 01:09:39,441
Speaker 1: the time. They end up staying anyway.

1474
01:09:39,481 --> 01:09:42,081
Speaker 3: They don't get addicted, they can't help themselves. They get nay,

1475
01:09:42,161 --> 01:09:44,281
Speaker 3: they want to fucking know what's coming and what's going.

1476
01:09:44,801 --> 01:09:47,041
Speaker 3: It's look at the end of the day that it's

1477
01:09:47,921 --> 01:09:51,800
Speaker 3: people are bad creatures of habit you know. And this

1478
01:09:51,801 --> 01:09:54,881
Speaker 3: this is a cold hard fact, and this is why

1479
01:09:54,961 --> 01:09:56,841
Speaker 3: things happen the way they do. And a lot of

1480
01:09:56,881 --> 01:10:00,321
Speaker 3: the times so easy because people are creatures that have it.

1481
01:10:00,321 --> 01:10:01,201
Speaker 1: It's embedded in it.

1482
01:10:01,321 --> 01:10:03,321
Speaker 3: It's not until you assess it, think about it, or

1483
01:10:03,321 --> 01:10:05,441
Speaker 3: I have had to live differently around that.

1484
01:10:05,841 --> 01:10:08,521
Speaker 1: It's just natural. We just do things habitually.

1485
01:10:09,321 --> 01:10:12,401
Speaker 3: Oh, it's very easy to find what you need to

1486
01:10:12,441 --> 01:10:14,321
Speaker 3: find sometimes because of that reason.

1487
01:10:14,761 --> 01:10:19,841
Speaker 1: But in saying that, make change be the change. You know.

1488
01:10:20,001 --> 01:10:23,281
Speaker 1: If you if you want something to be different, fuck

1489
01:10:23,481 --> 01:10:23,961
Speaker 1: just do it.

1490
01:10:24,641 --> 01:10:29,481
Speaker 4: But also putting yourself in a vulnerable place, parking your ego,

1491
01:10:29,961 --> 01:10:33,161
Speaker 4: learning humility, like I've been with clubbies, Like if someone

1492
01:10:33,161 --> 01:10:35,041
Speaker 4: looked at them wrong way, they're out in the car

1493
01:10:35,121 --> 01:10:37,721
Speaker 4: park having a crack, you know, and they find themselves

1494
01:10:37,881 --> 01:10:39,801
Speaker 4: in custody at the end of the night because they

1495
01:10:39,801 --> 01:10:43,881
Speaker 4: couldn't cop somebody having a negative expression at them. So

1496
01:10:44,321 --> 01:10:47,921
Speaker 4: I think doing media and podcast in particular podcasting, because

1497
01:10:47,921 --> 01:10:51,281
Speaker 4: it is so forward facing into the audience. You know,

1498
01:10:51,401 --> 01:10:54,441
Speaker 4: people will give you that reaction and they will tell

1499
01:10:54,481 --> 01:10:56,680
Speaker 4: you what they think they and you know what type

1500
01:10:56,681 --> 01:10:58,481
Speaker 4: of stuff. And I think it is it is difficult

1501
01:10:58,561 --> 01:11:01,921
Speaker 4: for people to accept that. And the media particularly has

1502
01:11:01,961 --> 01:11:05,041
Speaker 4: traditionally been in an ivory tower, separated from the audio,

1503
01:11:05,721 --> 01:11:07,961
Speaker 4: the authority and get away of all kinds of things

1504
01:11:07,961 --> 01:11:09,721
Speaker 4: where they can't get away with that in this in

1505
01:11:09,761 --> 01:11:11,841
Speaker 4: this sphere. And I think it's a tremendous thing.

1506
01:11:12,361 --> 01:11:14,321
Speaker 1: I must say, I agree with you totally.

1507
01:11:14,321 --> 01:11:17,961
Speaker 3: And I've had some very good conversations in the last

1508
01:11:18,001 --> 01:11:22,521
Speaker 3: couple of seasons with some very high profile people from

1509
01:11:22,601 --> 01:11:24,201
Speaker 3: all walks of life, which I'm sure that.

1510
01:11:24,161 --> 01:11:26,281
Speaker 1: You're aware of, and I've enjoyed every one of them.

1511
01:11:26,401 --> 01:11:30,161
Speaker 3: And you know the reality is when it all comes

1512
01:11:30,201 --> 01:11:33,361
Speaker 3: down to the final point.

1513
01:11:33,841 --> 01:11:35,441
Speaker 1: We're all really the same.

1514
01:11:35,641 --> 01:11:38,361
Speaker 3: We're just trying to do our best, and we're all

1515
01:11:38,441 --> 01:11:40,441
Speaker 3: just trying to you know, as long as you live

1516
01:11:40,481 --> 01:11:43,881
Speaker 3: by some sort of moral code, you know, and you're

1517
01:11:43,921 --> 01:11:48,281
Speaker 3: not some woman bash and pedophile, scumbag, fucking dog, then

1518
01:11:49,361 --> 01:11:51,361
Speaker 3: you're not doing anything wrong, you know what I mean.

1519
01:11:51,521 --> 01:11:57,561
Speaker 3: Like and look, I had a great interview with Gary Jubilant, you.

1520
01:11:57,601 --> 01:11:59,601
Speaker 1: Know what I mean. And you know.

1521
01:11:59,561 --> 01:12:04,281
Speaker 3: We literally eat a two part episode that brought two

1522
01:12:04,361 --> 01:12:06,441
Speaker 3: men to be able to sit at a table at

1523
01:12:06,441 --> 01:12:09,601
Speaker 3: the end of the second episode and realize he was

1524
01:12:09,681 --> 01:12:11,801
Speaker 3: just doing his best at what he was doing. I

1525
01:12:11,881 --> 01:12:13,321
Speaker 3: was doing the best at what I was doing, but

1526
01:12:13,361 --> 01:12:15,081
Speaker 3: we both lost everything in between.

1527
01:12:15,521 --> 01:12:20,321
Speaker 1: Yep, you know, so does that Yeah? Yeah, and yeah

1528
01:12:20,681 --> 01:12:21,321
Speaker 1: it really is.

1529
01:12:22,201 --> 01:12:24,361
Speaker 3: Once you sit down and you start to actually use

1530
01:12:24,401 --> 01:12:27,521
Speaker 3: your brain and have a think, Yeah, life can be

1531
01:12:27,841 --> 01:12:28,201
Speaker 3: That's right.

1532
01:12:28,481 --> 01:12:31,401
Speaker 4: I mean, i'mber doing a show on SBS about bikers

1533
01:12:31,441 --> 01:12:33,361
Speaker 4: back in the day, and we had a bunch of

1534
01:12:33,361 --> 01:12:35,921
Speaker 4: people that I helped come on, plus the head of

1535
01:12:36,361 --> 01:12:39,081
Speaker 4: the biking squads in a couple of states, And I

1536
01:12:39,121 --> 01:12:41,561
Speaker 4: remember the next day we went over night when we

1537
01:12:41,601 --> 01:12:43,481
Speaker 4: had breakfast and they're all chatting to each other at

1538
01:12:43,481 --> 01:12:45,761
Speaker 4: the breakfast buffet, you know, and they were just like

1539
01:12:46,121 --> 01:12:49,201
Speaker 4: your natural enemies here, but and you're now finding that

1540
01:12:49,241 --> 01:12:50,281
Speaker 4: common grant a bit like.

1541
01:12:50,241 --> 01:12:52,521
Speaker 1: The road runner and the coyote. You know, they actually

1542
01:12:52,521 --> 01:12:53,081
Speaker 1: need each other.

1543
01:12:53,641 --> 01:12:53,881
Speaker 3: They do.

1544
01:12:54,401 --> 01:12:56,801
Speaker 1: There's no story without the both of them, No, there's not.

1545
01:12:57,401 --> 01:12:59,441
Speaker 3: And I'll tell you what, Adam, I would love to

1546
01:12:59,481 --> 01:13:01,681
Speaker 3: actually have you on again at some stage and we

1547
01:13:01,841 --> 01:13:04,680
Speaker 3: go into a part two because we could talk for hours.

1548
01:13:05,201 --> 01:13:06,761
Speaker 3: I am going to have to wind it up a

1549
01:13:06,801 --> 01:13:08,921
Speaker 3: little bit now because I have a long trip ahead

1550
01:13:08,921 --> 01:13:10,561
Speaker 3: of me back down the end one into all the

1551
01:13:10,561 --> 01:13:14,241
Speaker 3: wonderful traffic from Brisbane. But mate, I do want to

1552
01:13:14,281 --> 01:13:17,121
Speaker 3: say thank you very much for you coming on this

1553
01:13:17,201 --> 01:13:20,721
Speaker 3: afternoon and the informative chat. I know that there's, like

1554
01:13:20,761 --> 01:13:22,720
Speaker 3: I said, there is a lot more. I really would

1555
01:13:22,721 --> 01:13:25,081
Speaker 3: love to sit down and chat with you further about

1556
01:13:25,121 --> 01:13:27,401
Speaker 3: and maybe we can have an off and off the

1557
01:13:27,841 --> 01:13:30,601
Speaker 3: cuff chat and move into a phase two of the

1558
01:13:30,681 --> 01:13:34,361
Speaker 3: Clink or vice versa. But I'm truly grateful for you

1559
01:13:34,441 --> 01:13:36,801
Speaker 3: taking the time to come on here and give us

1560
01:13:36,801 --> 01:13:38,881
Speaker 3: some sort of insight from a media point of view,

1561
01:13:38,961 --> 01:13:42,401
Speaker 3: from your lived experience of thirty years as a crime reporter.

1562
01:13:42,881 --> 01:13:46,041
Speaker 4: Absolute pleasure, Brent. I'll get you on my show. How'd

1563
01:13:46,041 --> 01:13:47,841
Speaker 4: that be known? Wemendous.

1564
01:13:47,921 --> 01:13:50,641
Speaker 1: We can do that and I would be absolutely honored.

1565
01:13:50,681 --> 01:13:53,881
Speaker 3: So feel free to reach out to our team and yeah,

1566
01:13:54,121 --> 01:13:56,721
Speaker 3: we'll go from there. But from me, mate, I want

1567
01:13:56,761 --> 01:14:00,760
Speaker 3: to say thank you very much, and next time, let's

1568
01:14:00,801 --> 01:14:01,881
Speaker 3: go into a part two and.

1569
01:14:02,641 --> 01:14:05,481
Speaker 1: Divulge a little bit further into the life of the

1570
01:14:05,561 --> 01:14:08,881
Speaker 1: cron Rider. You're wrong, Thanks buddy, Thank you night cheez.

1571
01:14:10,321 --> 01:14:12,521
Speaker 2: For the record, I'm done trying to make y'all comfortable

1572
01:14:13,601 --> 01:14:15,561
Speaker 2: for the record. You ain't trying to grow any stuff

1573
01:14:15,561 --> 01:14:18,601
Speaker 2: for your pride for the record, laugh on me going

1574
01:14:18,641 --> 01:14:21,680
Speaker 2: all the way for the record. Ain't trying to link

1575
01:14:21,721 --> 01:14:22,761
Speaker 2: no time to waste.

1576
01:14:23,481 --> 01:14:29,081
Speaker 6: For the record, for the record, for the for the record,

1577
01:14:30,041 --> 01:14:33,921
Speaker 6: for the record, for the record, for the record.

1578
01:14:45,441 --> 01:14:45,481
Speaker 3: H