1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:02,719 Speaker 1: This podcast was recorded on the land of the Gatigel 2 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: people of the Eur Nation. Hello and welcome to the 3 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: Real Story with Joe Hildebrand. Absolutely lovely to have your company. 4 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: Another huge show this week. First up, why one percent 5 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:22,600 Speaker 1: could be make or break for Prime Minister Anthony Albanesi, 6 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: but even more could be zero zero point one percent plus? 7 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 1: What is Grace Thames's real relationship with the Murdoch Media. 8 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: I'll give you the inside story behind that, and what's 9 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,239 Speaker 1: it like to be canceled? Imagine being canceled for something 10 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: that you didn't even know that you'd done. All that 11 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: and more coming up first up, Well, it hasn't been 12 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: a great start to the week for Anthony Albanesi. Australia Day, 13 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: of course, happened over the weekend, and so did a 14 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: news poll that showed that Peter Dutton was starting the 15 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:09,479 Speaker 1: year ahead. The coalition is up fifty one to forty 16 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,960 Speaker 1: nine two party preferred against the Labor Party, and that 17 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: is an increase of one percent from the fifty to 18 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: fifty that Albo managed to close the year at. And 19 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: I can guarantee you there would have been plenty of 20 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 1: people in the government who would have been very relieved 21 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: that it was fifty to fifty and nothing any worse. Well, 22 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: worse has come and now the Coalition has just nosed 23 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:38,040 Speaker 1: in front. But it might not be all bad news 24 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: for Anthony Albanesi and the Labor Party because in the 25 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: same News poll it showed that a majority of Australians 26 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: now expected the Coalition to win the next election. Now 27 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: that is not a majority of Australian saying that they 28 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: are going to vote for the coalition. That is a 29 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: majority of Australiaan saying they think everybody else is. So 30 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: this is a slightly different type of news. Polonzets just 31 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: says how are you going to vote? They're actually asking 32 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: what do you think will happen regardless of how you vote. 33 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: So of course you have cynical Labor voters. Yes they 34 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: are out there saying, oh yeah, look I don't want 35 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: it to happen, but I think that Peter Dutton's going 36 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: to get in. Now this is actually better news for 37 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:28,519 Speaker 1: Labor than people saying that they're just going to vote 38 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: the other way. So actually having people expect the Opposition 39 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: to win is believe it or not, probably what Labor wants. 40 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 1: The last thing that you want going into an election 41 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: is everyone's thinking that you're going to win, so it 42 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: doesn't really matter how you vote. You can sort of 43 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: have your cake and eat it too. You cast a 44 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: protest vote against the government to say that you're so 45 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:53,839 Speaker 1: unhappy with how they're going, and you're going to send 46 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: a message to the lodge and they'll listen, they'll get 47 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: a bit scared and they'll do better next time. Now, 48 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: this is what happened to Jeff Kennett in nineteen ninety nine. 49 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 1: No one thought he was going to lose that election 50 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: as Premier of Victoria after just two terms. He just 51 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: won a second term in what was effectively a landslide. 52 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: And yet because everyone thought he was going to get in, 53 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: there's a massive protest vote and Steve Brax just squeaks 54 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: over the line. Everyone in politics had their heads spin 55 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: at that result and it made them take the prospect 56 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: of a shock loss very very very seriously. Now, if 57 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: that was to happen, that would be unprecedented since the 58 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: Second World War. For the best part of a century, 59 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: every first term Australian government has gotten a second term, 60 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: even when the government has dropped off the head of 61 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: its own prime minister. That happened with Kevin Rudd when 62 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: Julia Gulard got in or be it as minority government, 63 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: and it happened with the Coalition as soon as they 64 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: got in after that, when Tony Abbott got rolled and 65 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: Malcolm Turnbull again just squeaked through, but squeaked through. And 66 00:03:57,920 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: you will have a lot of people I know on 67 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: the say actually we want people to think that Dutton 68 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: could win because if they actually think he's going to 69 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: get in, that's going to make them more likely to 70 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: vote for us. And again, what you don't want is 71 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: that protest vote getting out of control apart from anything else. 72 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: That's why by elections always go against the government, or 73 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: they did until the aston by election. That's another once 74 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: in a century event. But people think, well I can 75 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 1: send the government message but not have to worry about 76 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: actually changing the government. So again I can you know, 77 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: stick the middle finger up to them. But actually I 78 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 1: want him to stay there. I just wanted to pay 79 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: more attention. So having more people think that Peter Dutton 80 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: and the Coalition are going to win the next election 81 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 1: could actually be good for labor because people will actually say, well, 82 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: hang on a minute, do we really want that? Do 83 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: we want those seven nuclear reactors or do we want 84 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 1: to never see the aboriginal torris straight out of the 85 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: flags that a press conference ever again, maybe they will. 86 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: But of course this this was the strategy when everyone 87 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: thought that Peter Dutton was unelectable, that Peter Dutton was 88 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: about as electable as say, I don't know Donald Trump, right, Raoul. 89 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: So that hasn't gone particularly well, But nonetheless it is 90 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: not as bad for the government as you might think. 91 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: What is better for the government though, is not that 92 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 1: one percent that the coalition has put on it over Christmas, 93 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: but the zero point one percent difference between what the 94 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: RBA and everyone else thought inflation was going to do 95 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: and what it actually did. And you know, they say 96 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: a week's a long time in politics, they say what 97 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 1: a difference a day makes? Well, this is the difference 98 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: that zero point one percent makes. Now, most people thought 99 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: that inflation would go up by about two point five 100 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: percent in the December quarter. And I swear to God, 101 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: I'm going to make this interesting. I'm going to make 102 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 1: it sexy, I'm going to make it sing. Right, most 103 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 1: people thought it would go out by about two point 104 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 1: five percent, right the markets, you know, all the sort 105 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: of people who make their livings predicting these sorts of things, 106 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: and even that would have been the lowest in four years, 107 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 1: that would be the lowest figure since twenty twenty one, 108 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: and that would be good news. But you know what 109 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: it did, that little number, that little digit, god bless, 110 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:25,040 Speaker 1: it went up by two point four percent, so zero 111 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: point one percent lower. So that means that not only 112 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 1: was everyone expecting inflation to be much much, much better 113 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 1: than it has been at any time in the past 114 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: four years, but it did just tiny deny wins a 115 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: bit better than that. And that means that the RBA 116 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: has a tiny teeny wincy bit more of an incentive 117 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 1: to cut rates, and it could do that as early 118 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,039 Speaker 1: as next month. It could do that as early as 119 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 1: mid fab. I think February eighteen is when the RBA meets. 120 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: So that means that Albo could actually get a rate 121 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: cut in the middle of an election campaign. He might 122 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 1: even if he has balls of steel. And again, as 123 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: I've often said, his overconfidence is both his best asset 124 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: and his worst problem. But he could even roll the dice, 125 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: call an election, as I predicted last week, not go 126 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: back to parliament, not have to have to deliver a 127 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: budget deficit and then in the middle of a campaign, 128 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: boom the clouds part the RBA hands down that rate cut. 129 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: So again that number, that point one between the expected 130 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: inflation rate and what actually came down, could be even 131 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: more important that the one percent the coalition just went 132 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: up by watch this space. But now I want to 133 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: talk about a different number that occurred in politics, and 134 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: that is the number that Grace Tame did on the 135 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: PM during an Australia Day event at the Lodge or 136 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: an Australia Day Eve event. I think it was the 137 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: Saturday before Australia Day, Saturday, the twenty fifth. Now this 138 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: has been obviously what everybody is talking about, which is 139 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: precisely I suspect Grace Tame's intention. But Grace Tame, who 140 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: was of course a young Australian of the Year with herself, 141 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: she rocked up the Lodge to this formal event wearing 142 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: a Buck Murdoch T shirt. Now she didn't specify which Murdock, 143 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: but I suspect it was. I don't think it was 144 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:49,079 Speaker 1: Howling Mad Murdock from the Ateam. I suspect it might 145 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: have been the great Patriarch of News Corps Australia, Rupert Murdoch, 146 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: or indeed maybe even the bloke who actually runs the joint, 147 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: Lachlan Murdock. I'm not sure if Grace got the member that. 148 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:01,680 Speaker 1: In fact, there's been a bit of a sort of 149 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: you know, change your hands at the top recently. But anyway, 150 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: it's not an uncommon sentiment among the activists left, and 151 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,439 Speaker 1: needless to say, it's a sentiment I've heard many times 152 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:16,679 Speaker 1: throughout my career. In fact, when I was a young 153 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 1: left wing tear away socialist, it's probably a sentiment I 154 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: held myself. But let's get back down to what happened. 155 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 1: So Grace time at this function at the lodge, wears 156 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: this T shirt, big letters, capitals F Murdoch, and of 157 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: course she is one of the many people lined up 158 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: to shake hands with the PM, and the PM kind 159 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: of has to shake hands with her and move on, 160 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: and everyone's got a photo of her in this T shirt, 161 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: grinning like a cheshire cat, looking proud as punch, and 162 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: the PM sort of trying to look anywhere else. Now, 163 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: this seemed to me passing strange for a number of reasons, 164 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: and one is an absolutely killer which I'll get up 165 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: to Firstly, I've got no problem with Grace Tame saying 166 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: whatever she wants. And I've got no problem with people, 167 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: even if they're saying things I disagree with or whatever, 168 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: you know, expressing themselves. And again, I was a young 169 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: left wing tear away shouting and chanting all sorts of things, 170 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: probably chouted fuck everyone at some point throughout my activist es. 171 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 1: I've caved down quite a bit and now occupy the 172 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: sensible center with which I enlighten all my fellow Australians 173 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 1: every week on this podcast. But the question is what 174 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: are you actually trying to achieve and who are you 175 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: actually helping? Now, Grace Time was, at least I believe, 176 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: a supporter of Anthony Alberanesi. Certainly they seem to share 177 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: many common interests, including the destruction of Scott Morrison. Now 178 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: it would appear Anthony Albanezi is in the same camp 179 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: as Scott Morrison, because not only did her wearing that 180 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,839 Speaker 1: T shirt get him into all sorts of trouble and 181 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: men everyone was talking about that and talking about what 182 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: his response to it was and whether or not he 183 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: shared that view or whether or not he condemned it. 184 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: Because of course, according to the left's own rule. You 185 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: can't just say nothing about edything. If you do not 186 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 1: know stand up and condemn something, it is assumed that 187 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 1: you support it. The standard you walk past is the 188 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: standard you accept. It's the company you keep on all 189 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 1: that plava. So instead of talking about government's policies and 190 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: what it's going to do for people, in the middle 191 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 1: of what is effectively and a foe election campaign, the 192 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: PM is having to fend off all sorts of questions 193 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: about grace time and her T shirt. And of course 194 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: it's probably pretty likely to make a fairly large section 195 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: of the Australian media and its audience think, hang on 196 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: a minute, if she thinks that and the PM standing 197 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: next to it, does the PM think that? Because as 198 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: quite clearly, a very large number of Australians actually like 199 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:10,959 Speaker 1: what News Corp, which is my employer, has to offer, 200 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,199 Speaker 1: and when they're offering me, it's no wonder because it's 201 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: a bloody hot product. So clearly most or at least 202 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: many Australians do not agree with this sentiment, and even 203 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 1: those who do probably wouldn't be too wrapped with the 204 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 1: way it was being expressed. And this was all Anthony 205 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: Alberanezi said. He basically said, having been of course criticized 206 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: from one side for daring to be seen with Grace 207 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: time while she was wearing the T shirt, which in 208 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:42,319 Speaker 1: fact he had virtually no choice about whatsoever. There was 209 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: pretty much nothing he could do, but still cops it 210 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 1: anyway from the right. And then of course he says, well, no, 211 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: I think that was disrespectful and I think we should 212 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: have you know, I support freedom of speech, but I 213 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 1: think we should have political debate in a respectful way. 214 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: And I think that Grace Tame, you know, detracted attention 215 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: from the people who this year the Australia Day Honors 216 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: were supposed to celebrate, which self evidently it did, because 217 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 1: that's all we're talking about, including me. So pretty mild 218 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: response from Albow, but of course no, now he gets 219 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 1: attacked by the left, and not just anyone on the left, 220 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: but of course Grace Tame herself, who suddenly writing for 221 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: kriche says that, you know, the PM's government has been 222 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: spineless and cowardly and I don't know, I just read 223 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,439 Speaker 1: the Daily Mail version, but apparently she didn't like it 224 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: very much. So now the PM's already been attacked by 225 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: the right for Grace Tame's stunts, and now he's being 226 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: attacked by Grace Tame herself from the left for daring 227 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: to say that maybe that wasn't the best time and 228 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: place to wear that T shirt. So when people talk 229 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:01,199 Speaker 1: about the left eating itself, the left destroying itself, this 230 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: is what it looks like. This is what it looks like. 231 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 1: It looks like the hard left attacking the moderate center 232 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: left for not being left wing enough at a time 233 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: when the rest of the electorate is punishing that same 234 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: government and that same PM for being two left wing. 235 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: That is what the left cannibalizing, eating, consuming, destroying and 236 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: gorging itself. That's what it looks like. And it is 237 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: just for someone like me and many many people in 238 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: the party, in the center left or in the center 239 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: of politics, we just look at this stuff and we go, 240 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: this is a political apocalypse. This is people torching the 241 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: village in order to save it. So that is the 242 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: sort of political outcome of what Grace Time has done. 243 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: And again, I'm all for free speech, and even if 244 00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: I wasn't, I'd still give Grace Time a free pass 245 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: because after what she's been through, she can say whatever 246 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: the hell she wants, But if this was her desired impact, 247 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: I'm not sure if she is labor or the Left's 248 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: best friend. What is more interesting, however, is Grace TAM's 249 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: own history with the Murdoch Media organization in Australia, because 250 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: Grace Tame first came to public attention solely as the 251 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: result of a News Corp a Murdoch Media campaign, a 252 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: campaign that she worked hand in glove with the organization 253 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: on Nina Funnel, who is a friend of mine or 254 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: someone I've worked with who I really love and respect, 255 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: is a campaigner and a journalist for News Court freelance 256 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 1: like me, works a lot for news dot com but 257 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: are you? And she is a tireless advocate for sexual 258 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: assault victims survivors, and she met Grace Tame in twenty 259 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: seventeen wanted to do a story on her for news 260 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: dot com dot Au, which is owned by Rupert Murdoch, 261 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: and was told by the lawyer she couldn't because this 262 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: archaic law in Tasmania, where Grace Tame's assault occurred, meant 263 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: that victims of sexual assault couldn't be identified even if 264 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: they wanted to be identified. So perhaps a well intentioned 265 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 1: law to protect their privacy. But for people who wanted 266 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: to speak out and campaign on these issues and change laws, 267 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: including the one that said that they couldn't speak out. 268 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: This actually this actually completely hogtied them, and so Nina 269 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: Funnel started a campaign called let Her Speak, which she 270 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 1: worked with Grace Tame on in order to get Grace 271 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 1: Tame's identity finally publicly revealed to give her a platform, 272 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: and NewsCorp News dot Com, Dot a U and The 273 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: Hobart Mercury, also owned by Rupert Murdoch, worked tirelessly until 274 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: that law was changed and Grace Tame could finally be 275 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 1: revealed as Grace Tame. It was that campaign which made 276 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: Grace Tame a public figure. It gave her the platform 277 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: to raise these issues, and indeed, that campaign was given 278 00:17:55,080 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 1: the twenty nineteen News Corp Award for Campaign of the 279 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 1: Year at the News Awards, which are run by News Corp, 280 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: which is owned by Rubert Murdock, and Grace Tame was 281 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: at that event. I know because I was at that event, 282 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 1: and I think that was the last time I actually 283 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,159 Speaker 1: saw and spoke to Nita face to face, and I 284 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 1: congratulated on what fantastic campaign had been and said it 285 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 1: was incredible, and Nina was just so relieved, and Grace 286 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: Tamee was there next to I can't remember if I 287 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 1: actually met Grace as well, but she was right there. 288 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 1: Even if she wasn't right there, I still would have 289 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: seen her at that event because she spoke at it. 290 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 1: She addressed those Newscop awards saying what an incredible campaign 291 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: had been and what incredibly good work it had done, 292 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 1: and how brad she was to be associated with it. 293 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: Not so much anymore, it seems. But again, that was 294 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: five years ago. People changed their minds, people's political views changed. 295 00:18:55,080 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 1: Maybe Grace is embarrassed by that now, maybe she's forgotten it. 296 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: Maybe I don't know, I don't know whatever. So I'm 297 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: not having a go at Grace tame She can say, think, 298 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: or do whatever she wants, and she doesn't need my 299 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: permission to do so. But I do think it is 300 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: passing strange that if it wasn't for the Murdock Press, 301 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 1: Grace tame would not have the platform and the profile 302 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: to rock up to the lodge wearing a T shirt 303 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: saying Fuck Murdoch. Well, my guest this week is someone 304 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: I'm incredibly excited to have with us. I am totally 305 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: fangirling right now. I am wiking out. She is one 306 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: of the biggest stars in Australian music. She was someone 307 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: who I absolutely idolized as I was growing up. Her 308 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: name is Deborah Conway. She was a former lead singer 309 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: of do Rey May with his Trailblazing band in Australia 310 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:03,919 Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties. I remember her for a solo 311 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 1: career Conway two point zero, which produced such incredible hits 312 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: as It's only the Beginning and my personal favorite released me. 313 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: And she's someone who I think needs a bit of 314 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 1: a release right now because in the middle of the 315 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 1: sort of aftermath and all the fury and politics and 316 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:28,360 Speaker 1: protests that came following the October seven terror attacks and 317 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: everything that flowed from that, Deborah Conway found herself canceled. 318 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 1: She was someone who had been an icon and still 319 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 1: is an icon of the Australian music scene, someone who, 320 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,679 Speaker 1: dare I say, like myself so herself as of the 321 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: sort of progressive left right on, you know, thinks all 322 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: the right things about everybody, a nice person and all 323 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:58,160 Speaker 1: of that, and suddenly she found that appearances were being denied, 324 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: her people were no longer looking her or talking to her, 325 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: and I wanted to talk to her about what that 326 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: feels like, what it's like to be canceled, to be 327 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: punished for something you don't even really know that you've done. 328 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: But enough for me, here she is right now on 329 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: the Real Story with Joe, Hilda Bround, Deborah Conway. Welcome. 330 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 1: How are you? 331 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 2: Oh, I'm pretty good, pretty good. It's it's nice to 332 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:23,880 Speaker 2: be with. 333 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: You, Joe. 334 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 2: What an amazing opportunity. 335 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 1: I'm also a fan of yours. No, you're not so, 336 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: I just honestly I am. If you know, if anyone 337 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 1: is watching right now, I'm already starting to blush. It 338 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: is just absolutely thrilled and honored to have you. I've 339 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 1: been up all night watching your music videos for about 340 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: the fifty billionth time. I'm talking. I've I've been talking 341 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 1: to you, I've been cyber stalking you, but I wanted 342 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: to just I really felt, and as you know, I've 343 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: been trying to get you on the show for ages 344 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: because this is something really really important to me and 345 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: something that is very very troubling to me, and I 346 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: think it's something that everyone is sort of waking up to. 347 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 1: But this idea that artists, public figures, whoever it might be, 348 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: need to be canceled, deplatformed, whatever you call it, if 349 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 1: they have a contrarie view to whatever the current sort 350 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,199 Speaker 1: of zeitgeist is. And you underknownst to me when I 351 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: was growing up in a kid and listening to you. 352 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: But you are Jewish. Unsurprisingly you support the state of 353 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: Israel It's right to exist. But leaving all that aside, 354 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: take us through the first moment when you realize that 355 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: these things that you always take for granted and never 356 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,919 Speaker 1: thought were an issue suddenly became an issue when it 357 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: came to your music and your and your sort of 358 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: public life. 359 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 2: Well, I guess you know. For me, it started with 360 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:54,439 Speaker 2: the shock of the celebrations that happened in Western Sydney 361 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 2: on October the eighth after this appalling massacre on the 362 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 2: seventh of October, there seemed to be no end of 363 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,479 Speaker 2: glee to what had happened, and I was just I 364 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 2: was really so surprised. And I think a lot of 365 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 2: people in the Jewish community, I mean pretty much everybody 366 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 2: I knew, everyone I knew, was quite shocked about how 367 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 2: this fully formed creature of anti Semitism had sprung forth 368 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 2: from the loins of this massacre. Anyway, we put some 369 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 2: stuff on our social media to kind of push back 370 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 2: and present another view. It didn't necessarily go very far. 371 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 2: I never know what social media does. 372 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 1: It doesn't. 373 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 2: It doesn't seem to reach that many people. 374 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: Incredibly understated and incredibly overstated at the same time that 375 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,159 Speaker 1: you think it's not having any impact whereas other things. 376 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:47,360 Speaker 1: But anyway continues. 377 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 2: But what happened on the I think it was around 378 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 2: the twenty sixth of November that Mushroom Records celebrated its 379 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,679 Speaker 2: fiftieth anniversary and we'd been invited to perform a song 380 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 2: on that stage at Rod Laver Arena in front of 381 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 2: fifteen thousand people. That brought it was broadcaster around a 382 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,439 Speaker 2: million people, and we chose to wear white suits with 383 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 2: blue shirts. I wore a very large mug, and David 384 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 2: and Willie Wadiyamulka and I just said, look, you know, 385 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 2: Michael referring to Michael Gadinsky had hated my outfit which 386 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:20,679 Speaker 2: I wore in the video clip for It's only the Beginning, 387 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,680 Speaker 2: But I think he would have loved this outfit. That's 388 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,679 Speaker 2: all I said. It was. It was pretty benign. From that, 389 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 2: we got a lot of support from you know, a 390 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 2: lot of support from the broader community and from the Jews. 391 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,640 Speaker 2: And then there was that the start of the real 392 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 2: hate campaign, you know, and the beginning the first the 393 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 2: first mention of us as being genocide supporters, which was 394 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,239 Speaker 2: really shocking. I mean, really, there's nothing more shocking than 395 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 2: being called someone who supports someone who supports genocide. It's 396 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 2: really it's so horrific, such a horrific idea. 397 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: So there was an appearance on the ABC think that 398 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,919 Speaker 1: you were scheduled to give and then a producer got 399 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: in contact and said, well, actually sorry, it happened. 400 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 2: It happened after the Patricia Cavellis Radio National interview, which 401 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 2: was on the round the fifteenth of December, I think. 402 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 2: And that was supposed to supposedly a conversation between the 403 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 2: comparisons of what Willie and I had worn at the 404 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 2: Rod Laver Arena with what the some of the actors 405 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 2: wore at the opening night of The Seagull. 406 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 1: The actors were wearing the kaffa, the Palestinian scarffah. 407 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 2: And so I did this interview with Patricia Cavellis, and 408 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 2: during the cut and thrust of a live interview. She 409 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:43,680 Speaker 2: was telling me that the IDEF were responsible for all 410 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 2: of these terrible deaths in Gaza, and of course there 411 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 2: was a lot of a lot of death. It was shocking. 412 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 2: And she mentioned, you know, how about the children. The children, 413 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 2: and I in trying to point out that that Hamas 414 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,640 Speaker 2: are very responsible for putting guns in under the aid 415 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 2: in the hands of underage people. Underage soldiers really bear 416 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 2: a huge amount of responsibility for this tragedy. And of course, 417 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 2: you know, a number of words were taken seven words 418 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 2: were taken out of the context from that conversation, and 419 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 2: then that then everybody just went to town and I 420 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,199 Speaker 2: went from being you know, dayified to being vilified. You know, 421 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 2: people were writing just horrendous things. 422 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: I suppose aside from that, so you're sort of watching 423 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: yourself become almost leave your own body. So suddenly the 424 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,200 Speaker 1: Deborah Conway you were and you always thought you were, 425 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 1: is this other thing that's being sort of tossed around 426 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 1: by others in the cybersphere. 427 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:45,640 Speaker 2: It wasn't immediately apparent to me. I mean I didn't, 428 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 2: I didn't honestly, I didn't think that I'd seen anything 429 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 2: out of the mainstream opinion of what how one would 430 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 2: interpret the events of October seven and up until that point, 431 00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 2: And so I was quite surprised. My daughter said to me, 432 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 2: you know, you're canceled now, and I said, really, I mean, 433 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 2: but I just expressed a view of you know, that 434 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 2: Hamas is a terrorist group and they shouldn't do these 435 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 2: things and blah blah blah. But yeah, she was right. 436 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 2: So it became it became very apparent that people didn't 437 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 2: want to know about me. That either they thought either 438 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,360 Speaker 2: they subscribed to the idea that I was in fact 439 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 2: a supporter of genocide, or they were just terrified of 440 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 2: straying beyond what the tribe believed, or they were terrified 441 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 2: of being targeted by the tribe for standing up for 442 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 2: the other opinions. So you know, you pick your poison. 443 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 2: It's and it's it was. 444 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: It was a slidell of so. So so what sort 445 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: of started to happen. I know you and I know 446 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 1: that suddenly appearances got canceled. You had an appearance on 447 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:54,679 Speaker 1: a musical appearance on the ABAC that was where they said, sorry, 448 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,479 Speaker 1: you're now persona non grata because of your views. 449 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 2: Just I don't think they were that specific, so it 450 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 2: would have been problematic for them, but they did. Someone 451 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,439 Speaker 2: said that the publicist that was so we had I 452 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,920 Speaker 2: put a book out on October the third. On October 453 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,160 Speaker 2: the fourth, we launched a show in Melbourne called Songs 454 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 2: from the Book of Life, which is a three dimensional 455 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:23,199 Speaker 2: musical based on that. And the ABC interview was to 456 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 2: promote some shows that we had, some extra shows that 457 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 2: we were doing in Melbourne, and the producer contacted the 458 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,479 Speaker 2: publicist and said, look, you know, Debra's too hot at 459 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 2: the moment. We can't we can't have her on. And 460 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 2: and we weren't talking, you know, we were talking about 461 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 2: promoting a show on the ABC, on the national broadcaster, 462 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 2: and it seemed completely crazy that one couldn't do that 463 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:55,959 Speaker 2: because of you know, this pylon that was that that 464 00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 2: had started happening. So you know, I we contacted a 465 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 2: journalist at a friendly journalist and another publication who rang 466 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 2: the ABC and so no, I hear Debracamway has been 467 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 2: canceled from this interview, well because you know, because of 468 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 2: being too too hot, And within I think within an 469 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 2: hour or two, the ABC had contacted the publicistem so no, no. 470 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: No, no, no, there's been some misunderstanding. 471 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 2: Just a misunderstanding, and the producer was away, And. 472 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: I mean, this is your this is your livelihood. It's 473 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: both what you need to survive and to to get by, 474 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: but it's also you know, something obviously that is integral 475 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: to to who you are. And I know enough musicians. 476 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: I'm a failed musician myself to know that. You know, 477 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: if someone is stopping you from doing or there is 478 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 1: that threat of you not being able to perform again 479 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: and not being able to work again, that must send 480 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: a sort of existential sh of it down your spine. 481 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: How did it feel when you've sort of felt that 482 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: suddenly everything's on the line. 483 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, it's been such a tough few years. 484 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, we started, I guess sometime back. 485 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 2: You know that there was you know, the streaming, and 486 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 2: then there was COVID, and then there was you know, 487 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 2: the beginnings of AI and now there's this. It's kind 488 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 2: of like. 489 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,720 Speaker 1: The you know, the O which I know the Jews 490 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 1: are more Old Testament than New Testament, but this is 491 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: very much the four horsemen of the apocalypse. This is 492 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: revelations here. 493 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true. I mean, look, I you know, we are. 494 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 2: We are self employed, so you know, we don't have 495 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 2: we don't have anyone else to make happy. Technically, I 496 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 2: don't have a record company or a publisher, music publisher 497 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 2: at any rate. I do have a book publisher, and 498 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 2: they have been they've been fantastic. And look, and there's 499 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 2: been lots of people that have been fantastic. And perhaps 500 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 2: I should say also that the ABC did come back 501 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 2: to me with a very a very appropriate apology note 502 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 2: after that incident, so I should credit them for that, 503 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 2: you know, like I do believe that there are a 504 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,719 Speaker 2: lot of people torn about this, and I think that 505 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 2: there are many more people that are just trying to 506 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 2: stay stay above the fray because they can see what 507 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,239 Speaker 2: happens when they get involved, and it's really nasty. But 508 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 2: that doesn't necessarily mean that they concur with all of 509 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 2: the stuff that is being propagated about me, about us. Nevertheless, 510 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 2: we will continue because we can. We're independent. We will, 511 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 2: we will record a new record. We'll figure out how 512 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 2: to release that in this strange world where no one 513 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,719 Speaker 2: actually has a CD player and we're too just too 514 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 2: old to be you. 515 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: Know, I still wonder about that. I did with a 516 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: very good. 517 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 2: Idea yesterday, which I want to tell you right now. 518 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 2: But I'm quite pleased with myself. I'm hard to defeat. 519 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 2: I'm pretty much I'm a you know, I'm a glass 520 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 2: half full kind of person. Look, I have bad days. 521 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 2: I can't you know, there are days where I just 522 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 2: I just cannot cannot believe the world that I'm now 523 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 2: living in. And you know, it would be wonderful if 524 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 2: there was a cohort of my peers that would stand 525 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 2: up publicly and say, hey. 526 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: This is just this is just wrong, it's not right. 527 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 2: I've worked with her. She really doesn't support genocide. 528 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:26,960 Speaker 1: I know her. 529 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 2: That'll be good so far. 530 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: I'm not a genocidal Nazi. I vote for the labor Ponty, 531 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 1: for God's sake. 532 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 2: They're keeping their head down. 533 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 1: And again, I think there is and perhaps, you know, 534 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,959 Speaker 1: maybe it's just foolishness or whatever, but you know, I 535 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 1: am one of those few stupid people who do stick 536 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 1: their head above the parapet because I think there has 537 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 1: been this really kind of dark cloud of you know, 538 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: the cliches sort of cancel culture, but this this sort 539 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 1: of this sort of censoriousness, puritanical censoriousness that has emerged 540 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 1: among the left. So I sort of never thought. I 541 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: never thought that the left would end up becoming you know, 542 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: apart from you know, in Soviet right, you think that. 543 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 2: I mean, they've got a very good history of that. 544 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 2: It's like, it happens on both sides. 545 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: It happens, does it happens on. 546 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 2: All sides when you know there are extremists who just 547 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 2: who have to stick to an ideology, who have lost 548 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 2: the ability to think outside the square, who are terrified 549 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 2: of being challenged, And so it's it's absolutely the left 550 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 2: is no is not immune to it. It's just that 551 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 2: they've been given a free pass for such a long time. 552 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, And I guess and again it's probably 553 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: your fault as well. As I grew up in the 554 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: nineties where it seemed like a happy time where everyone 555 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: was sort of crazy. We're all, you know, getting drunk 556 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: and smoking bongs and having sex, and you know, you'd 557 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: go to the occasional protest. 558 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 2: And I don't think you can conflate that with being 559 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 2: you know, on the left side of politics or the 560 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 2: right side of politics. I believe that the behaviors that 561 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 2: we all exhibited in the the nineties was about you know, individualism. 562 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe I actually think and. 563 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 2: I actually think that's you know, that's where we still 564 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 2: are today. Job, that's where I am, and I'm happy 565 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 2: to I'm happy to pick and choose and figure it 566 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 2: out as I go, and you know, if I think 567 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 2: it's wrong, I'll call it out. 568 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,800 Speaker 1: Well. God love you for it. And I'm very glad 569 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,319 Speaker 1: that you are where you are today, and I'm very 570 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 1: glad that you chose to be on this podcast and 571 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 1: we got to have this chat. Debrah comwait, thank you 572 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 1: so much for joining us today. It's been an absolute treat. 573 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:34,800 Speaker 2: Thank you very much for having me. 574 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 1: Joe. You're a chat and that's all we have time 575 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 1: for this week. Thanks so much for your company. I 576 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. We'll 577 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 1: be back next week with more astounding revelations of what's 578 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 1: really happening below the rug of Australian news and politics. 579 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 1: In the meantime, flick as an email the Real Story 580 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 1: at Nova podcast dot com dot au if you've got 581 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: any questions, any criticisms, and that's obviously hypothetical as if 582 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,399 Speaker 1: you would, or you can just I'm onto Instagram where 583 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 1: I'm gramming with all my peeps and at Joe Underscore, 584 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 1: Hildebrand is my handle. If you want to slide into 585 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 1: my dms, you can have a chat to me, get 586 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 1: plenty of interesting feedback. They're all positive, of course, and 587 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,399 Speaker 1: some very funny and interesting comments. And of course, if 588 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 1: you want to hear more of what I've got to say, 589 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 1: you can read me every Monday and Saturday in the 590 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 1: various news court mass Heads, which I'm also owned. And 591 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: that's all from me. I'll see you next week.