Speaker 1: This nation. Leading bill and the treaty process as a
Speaker 1: whole shows what we can achieve when we listen to
Speaker 1: first peoples and work together for better outcomes.
Speaker 2: As Victorian Premier just sent to Allan introduced Australia's first
Speaker 2: ever treaty to Parliament, she said it would pave the
Speaker 2: way for a formal apology, the introduction of Aboriginal truth
Speaker 2: telling into the school curriculum, and offer a better future
Speaker 2: for Indigenous Australians in the state.
Speaker 1: It honors and affirms special connection the First peoples have
Speaker 1: to country, this place now known as Victoria, which we
Speaker 1: all call home. It reckons with the wrongs of the
Speaker 1: past and sets a new course, guided by truth, to
Speaker 1: a better future.
Speaker 2: The treaty is the combination of almost a decade of
Speaker 2: work establishing the First People's Assembly, who led the negotiations,
Speaker 2: and it delivers on voice, treaty and truth, the three
Speaker 2: pillars of the Ulary statement from the heart, making Victoria
Speaker 2: the first state in the country to achieve this. I'm
Speaker 2: Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven AM today. Co
Speaker 2: chairs of the First People's Assembly Niagara, Murray and ruben Berg,
Speaker 2: and what they hope Victoria's treaty will deliver and how.
Speaker 3: Its success will be measured.
Speaker 2: It's Friday, September twelve, and this is part one of
Speaker 2: a two part episode Niagara. Ruben, thank you so much
Speaker 2: for joining me to begin me, would you mind just
Speaker 2: introducing yourself?
Speaker 3: Yeah, hello, Niagara Murray whereby one but you order jar
Speaker 3: Jarmarol and Dieral woman and I like a co chair
Speaker 3: of the First People's Assembly and.
Speaker 4: I'm Ruben Burke Craft the Nicks Mara May and also
Speaker 4: one of the co chairs of the First People's Ascending
Speaker 4: of Victoria.
Speaker 2: Well, welcome to seven am. Thank you so much for
Speaker 2: coming on the show. The first Treaty with the first
Speaker 2: peoples of this country has just become a reality. It's
Speaker 2: been a long road to get here, so to beginning
Speaker 2: to tell me how you're both feeling.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm feeling good. The historic day for all of
Speaker 3: us with the introduction of the Statewide Treaty Bill in
Speaker 3: the Parliament, there was a day of emotions and pride
Speaker 3: and reflection.
Speaker 1: Treaty will be a source of pride for all Victorians,
Speaker 1: representative of a proudly diverse and multicultural state which values
Speaker 1: its history and all of its people, because this is
Speaker 1: not about taking anything away from anyone, It's about practical
Speaker 1: changes to do things better together. I am proud to
Speaker 1: support this next step in treaty. I am proud that
Speaker 1: together we are improving people's lives and giving everyone a
Speaker 1: better future.
Speaker 5: I commend the bill to the House.
Speaker 3: We're just really excited to be in this position in Victoria.
Speaker 3: And it's been a lot of hard work over the
Speaker 3: last six years in particular, but nearly a decade of
Speaker 3: preparatory work. And yeah, we're in a really strong position
Speaker 3: as we work towards the very first treaty of this country.
Speaker 4: Yes, as Nagara said, it's been a very long journey
Speaker 4: to get us here, across six years of traveling around
Speaker 4: the whole state, talking with all of our community in
Speaker 4: every corner of the state, and now to get to
Speaker 4: this point where it's about to become a reality. To
Speaker 4: now then think forward to let's get the action done.
Speaker 4: Let's start getting things done rather than having to talk
Speaker 4: about treat now it can actually activate it.
Speaker 2: And obviously I want to talk more about what it
Speaker 2: all means. But you both mentioned it's been a long
Speaker 2: road to get here. Of the last decade so can
Speaker 2: you just tell me about some of the kind of
Speaker 2: key points in the negotiations between the Assembly and the
Speaker 2: Victorian government.
Speaker 4: The first part of the negotiations when we started as
Speaker 4: an Assembly was really to work out what treaty would
Speaker 4: look like actually here in this state, because there's lots
Speaker 4: of different models you can go down for treaty making,
Speaker 4: and very early on we made I think a really
Speaker 4: important decision an agreement with the state that we'd tackle
Speaker 4: this as a hybrid model. So we're looking at both
Speaker 4: state wide treaties, which is the first part of which
Speaker 4: has gone into the legislation as part of the bill,
Speaker 4: and then there's also traditional loan and treaties that are
Speaker 4: happening in parallel. And so that was I think a
Speaker 4: really key first part of this process to say we're
Speaker 4: going to have both, and that drew from different models
Speaker 4: across the globe, and then as we started talking more
Speaker 4: about the first state White Treaty to say that what
Speaker 4: we wanted to do is set things up for success
Speaker 4: and for future conversations that if we're going to have
Speaker 4: further negotiations and further conversations, we need to have a
Speaker 4: really strong, democratically elected traduce loaner led body that can
Speaker 4: intersect with government really powerful ways, so we can advocate
Speaker 4: for better outcomes and then also progress future treaty making.
Speaker 2: So tell me then I guess about the practicalities of that.
Speaker 2: What is the purpose of the treating what does it
Speaker 2: look like for us?
Speaker 3: The treaty will really be about the relationships and the
Speaker 3: setting of those relationships between first people's and the state.
Speaker 3: As Ruben said, there'll be many treat We've got the
Speaker 3: hybrid approach of the state wide treaty covers all the
Speaker 3: statewide matters and addresses our affairs within health and housing,
Speaker 3: education and justice, sports. There will be a number of
Speaker 3: treaties in the next iteration of the statewide treaty, and
Speaker 3: then the trition owner treaties will relate to the business
Speaker 3: of those trush owners on their country and their aspirations
Speaker 3: within their own context. But this is the first modern
Speaker 3: treaty in over twenty years, we've looked internationally to all
Speaker 3: the different examples of treaty making in other countries with
Speaker 3: indigenous peoples, and it is the first treaty. We can
Speaker 3: only do so much in this one, and then we
Speaker 3: will pass the button to the next iteration of the Assembly.
Speaker 3: But it encapsulates all our aspirations, all our demands and
Speaker 3: asks that we've been fighting for for a long time
Speaker 3: and putting them into practice. And there's a lot of
Speaker 3: tangible outcomes that will happen through the first State wide Treaty.
Speaker 3: But that structural reform is really what we're seeking around
Speaker 3: how we govern into the future when it comes to
Speaker 3: aboriginal affairs.
Speaker 2: And just tell me a bit more about that structural
Speaker 2: or form, the new iteration of the First People's Assembly,
Speaker 2: What does it look like.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so this is the transformation of the Assembly as
Speaker 4: it is now into this future body and it sits
Speaker 4: within this space referred to as Gallilas and that's the
Speaker 4: kind of overarching landscape of tree you making. So within
Speaker 4: gallung Lah will still be the First People's Assembly of
Speaker 4: Victoria as the democratically elected body, and that's the body
Speaker 4: that we'll be able to talk directly to Parliament, to
Speaker 4: address Parliament once a year, to meet with Cabinet, to
Speaker 4: meet with ministers, to have relationships with departments about how
Speaker 4: when government's developing policies that might affect first peoples, how
Speaker 4: they intersect and engage with the expertise of First Peoples.
Speaker 4: Also within that space of gallung Lis will be the
Speaker 4: Nin mah Yenyawara, which is their accountability mechanism. And this
Speaker 4: is something that's very clearly drawn from the work of
Speaker 4: the Productivity Commission last year and they did a big
Speaker 4: review onto closing the gap and what needed to be
Speaker 4: changed to actually see some closing those gaps. And a
Speaker 4: key thing they identified was there's not a First people's
Speaker 4: led body that's actually monitoring the government to see how
Speaker 4: are they performing and giving them recommendations about what to improve,
Speaker 4: and so that's what we're creating through niingma Yanyawara. Another
Speaker 4: component of the Gallinwall will be the ongoing truthcut through
Speaker 4: Tolkuna and so that will ensure that the powerful work
Speaker 4: that happened through the truth calling process here in Victoria
Speaker 4: through Year Rook will be able to be continued. And
Speaker 4: there's an ongoing role for place based truth celling and
Speaker 4: to ensure that all Victorians can better understand the history
Speaker 4: of First Peoples from a first people's perspective.
Speaker 2: And so, as you mentioned there, they didn't to go
Speaker 2: and well is this access to government, So there's this
Speaker 2: power to make representations to Cabinet, to ministers, to various departments,
Speaker 2: to both houses of Parliament. So tell me how you
Speaker 2: imagine that access being used, what's going to be advocated for?
Speaker 4: Yeah, so really at this stage it's about a process
Speaker 4: and the types of things we want to advocate for.
Speaker 4: Is that's the next conversation to talk with that community.
Speaker 4: It's not just going to be whoever the coaches are
Speaker 4: deciding that this is what they want to talk about.
Speaker 4: There are really strong processes in the legislation and in
Speaker 4: our own internal processes to make sure we're hearing directly
Speaker 4: from all parts of the state about what's important and
Speaker 4: feeding that in. And we do have the powerful work
Speaker 4: of your book of four years of our people coming
Speaker 4: and giving evidence to show what also needs to change.
Speaker 4: So that'd be a really key roadmap of the type
Speaker 4: of things we're going to be advocating for and the
Speaker 4: future body can advocate for when we do have that
Speaker 4: greater access to government.
Speaker 2: And there is a provis so that nothing in the
Speaker 2: agreement limits the authority of the Parliament to make laws
Speaker 2: and conduct it's business. So do you feel like there
Speaker 2: is enough of a guarantee that the government of the
Speaker 2: day will listen.
Speaker 4: Look, I've heard far too much about the concept of
Speaker 4: parliamentary sovereignty in the last couple of years and never
Speaker 4: really need to. But we're very mindful that parliament has
Speaker 4: its role to do and that's rightfully so, given that
Speaker 4: they're chosen by all the people of the state. So
Speaker 4: we just want to make sure that when there is
Speaker 4: a role for government to have decisions that impact first peoples,
Speaker 4: that they're actually hearing from first peoples about that. We
Speaker 4: want to make sure we have really strong relationships, as
Speaker 4: Nagara said before, that's really key to these processes of
Speaker 4: being able to sit down and look in the eye
Speaker 4: of these politicians and say this is what our people need,
Speaker 4: and this is what our people are saying, and this
Speaker 4: is what our experts are saying, and hopefully that sees
Speaker 4: the change, but if not, we can keep coming back
Speaker 4: to the table and having those conversations and understand if
Speaker 4: that's not the approach they think will work, what will
Speaker 4: and how can we make that work even better.
Speaker 3: And we've had a really strong relationship with the state
Speaker 3: over six years now, you know, right across the political
Speaker 3: sphere to ensure that we have that support and really
Speaker 3: entrenched the work that we've done within this system to
Speaker 3: be able to have strong foundations for a treaty and
Speaker 3: strong relationships as we head into the future.
Speaker 2: Coming up, how the success of this treaty will be
Speaker 2: measured over the coming years, So Reuben and Agara, as
Speaker 2: part of this treaty, primary and secondary school children will
Speaker 2: learn more about Victoria's first people's There's going to be
Speaker 2: a new curriculum developed choosing some of the findings of
Speaker 2: the commission. So tell me a bit about what might
Speaker 2: be taught and what you're hoping that that will achieve.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, the work of Europe has been absolutely profound,
Speaker 3: and the fact that we've now completed the inquiry and
Speaker 3: we have those one hundred recommendations and truth telling in
Speaker 3: education is really key to the future of this country
Speaker 3: and how we will coexist together all Victorians within the state.
Speaker 3: Understanding the real history, the true history.
Speaker 5: I have learned much that I did not know in
Speaker 5: terms of the true history of the dispossession, what the settlers,
Speaker 5: the colonizers did when they came to Victoria. I did
Speaker 5: not know of the massacres. I'm ashamed to say I
Speaker 5: did not. I have learned about the size and scale
Speaker 5: of the murders and the massacres through my preparation for
Speaker 5: my appearance today, and.
Speaker 3: I think of my own child, a nine year old
Speaker 3: that's been on this treaty journey with us. She's a
Speaker 3: bit of a treated kid. But how amazing would it
Speaker 3: be for the schools within Victoria to understand the history
Speaker 3: of this country and celebrate sixty thousand years of culture
Speaker 3: and what that means to us as the first peoples
Speaker 3: of this land, and for people to really understand the
Speaker 3: history of this country because it is a shared history
Speaker 3: that we all have as Victorians.
Speaker 4: And I think on that as well. Sometimes there can
Speaker 4: be seen to be just to focus on the more
Speaker 4: traumatic sides about the history of first peoples, And obviously
Speaker 4: it is important that all Victorians can better understand the
Speaker 4: true impact of colonization. But it's also about celebrating black excellence. Still,
Speaker 4: it's about every school kid in Victoria should understand the
Speaker 4: significance of the aquaculture system down at Budja Bim, and
Speaker 4: they should understand the significants of people like Barrow's grandfather
Speaker 4: and great grandfather and all the work of First peoples
Speaker 4: in progressing that comes across the old state. We want
Speaker 4: to make sure we're celebrating Abageal history as well as
Speaker 4: part of that process.
Speaker 2: And the opposition, the Liberal l opposition in Victoria doesn't
Speaker 2: support the treaty. It's still a voice to Parliament.
Speaker 1: The government are trying to put through a voice to
Speaker 1: Parliament without taking it to the Victorian community.
Speaker 2: Is that disappointing?
Speaker 3: It's disappointing. Like we've worked really hard to build relationships
Speaker 3: with the opposition this term and we've got open door policy,
Speaker 3: so we'll continue that dialogue with the opposition. But yeah,
Speaker 3: it's disappointing. We work hard on our relationships and I
Speaker 3: think we'll just continue to do that. I think they've
Speaker 3: kind of showed some of their true colors within the Parliament,
Speaker 3: but I think for us, yeah, we'll just continue the
Speaker 3: dialogue with the opposition.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and to me, there's two really key components. One
Speaker 4: is they've spoken about the importance of closing the gap,
Speaker 4: and we recognize the importance of that too, and that's
Speaker 4: why we've drawn so heavily from the work of the
Speaker 4: Productivity Commission. If I was going to say who knows
Speaker 4: best about what might need to change for closing the gap,
Speaker 4: it's first Peoples and a Productivity Commission that has done
Speaker 4: an in depth review and to what needs to change,
Speaker 4: and so we're delivering on those things from the Closing
Speaker 4: the Gap review and also just to note that this
Speaker 4: has happened, there's going to be a tree error and
Speaker 4: we need to make sure we can use that to
Speaker 4: best benefit for all Victorians and to get better outcomes.
Speaker 4: But it's something that's going to be there and we're
Speaker 4: happy to work with all sides of government to make
Speaker 4: that work as effectively and efficiently as possible.
Speaker 2: And this is the first Australian treaty. You mentioned that
Speaker 2: international examples were looked at while this was being formulated.
Speaker 2: Can you tell me a bit more about that and
Speaker 2: the lessons that you've taken from elsewhere.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot of learnings and lessons. And we
Speaker 3: speak really closely with our different indigenous brothers and sisters
Speaker 3: across the globe and we've recently visited Altro with the
Speaker 3: Mali to have some strong relations there to learn from
Speaker 3: their treaties and the history of the Treaty of Waitangi.
Speaker 3: We talk with the Mob in the States, like with
Speaker 3: the Native American Mob and the British Columbian mob Sami.
Speaker 3: We've looked at all the different examples and I think
Speaker 3: from Ruben's perspective, we've got a poss and skin cloak
Speaker 3: analogy where we've put together some of the best examples
Speaker 3: and learnings of successful treaties and we've adapted that and
Speaker 3: tailored that to our approach. And I think we're in
Speaker 3: a really strong position, and we've got a lot of
Speaker 3: support right across the globe. And I know that a
Speaker 3: lot of Indigenous peoples and even our different countrymen and
Speaker 3: women across the different jurisdictions of Australia are watching and
Speaker 3: supporting us from afar. So it's pretty exciting to think
Speaker 3: that we will have a treaty in a modern context
Speaker 3: and the very first one of it's kind in Australia.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and we'll often talk a lot about how Victoria
Speaker 4: is leading the way in a national perspective, but we're
Speaker 4: just catching up with the rest of the globe. Like
Speaker 4: color countries have had these treaty processes in place for
Speaker 4: a long long time now, so it's really important to
Speaker 4: see this from that global perspective.
Speaker 2: And so how will you measure the success of this
Speaker 2: treaty and say five or ten years time, how big
Speaker 2: is the scale of the change that you hope that
Speaker 2: this will make.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that our community will be the measures
Speaker 4: of success, and hopefully we see our communities continue to
Speaker 4: thrive and see the ability to actually take control of
Speaker 4: our own lives and actually thrive in our own communities
Speaker 4: and have our culture be really strong. That's what we're
Speaker 4: looking for, and we want to make sure that we
Speaker 4: have all of our community anticipating and involved in these processes,
Speaker 4: and that'll be, from our perspective, the true measure of success.
Speaker 4: I think a key issue we've faced in a lot
Speaker 4: of these spaces is that so often what success looks
Speaker 4: like is dictated by external measures, where government are deciding
Speaker 4: that these are the measures of success. And now we're
Speaker 4: entering towards the process where we, as first peoples, will
Speaker 4: be able to determine what we think success looks like
Speaker 4: and measure that against our own ideas, which is really important.
Speaker 2: Well, Nagara Rubin, thank you so much to be your time.
Speaker 4: Thank you our pleasure.
Speaker 2: This is the first part of a two part episode.
Speaker 2: In the next episode, I speak to writer and my
Speaker 2: seven AM co host Daniel James about the politics of
Speaker 2: the treaty and why other states and territories have abandoned
Speaker 2: their own treaty processes.
Speaker 6: So the response from sections of the media was entirely predictable,
Speaker 6: trying to conflate it with things like the referendum, which
Speaker 6: is a completely different thing. This is it, this is
Speaker 6: what's happening, and if people want to conflate that with
Speaker 6: the referendum result for political purposes, then we'll wave to
Speaker 6: them as we go over the hill and down the road.
Speaker 2: It's called the politics and pushback, and it's in your
Speaker 2: feet now.