WEBVTT - #1919 It's Not About The Nail - Bobby Cappuccio

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<v Speaker 1>Bobby Capuccio, Welcome back to the you project, my.

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<v Speaker 2>Friend, welcome back to the self. How bad to do it?

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<v Speaker 1>Craig going, Hey, it's going good, buddy, life is good.

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<v Speaker 1>It sounds a bit cheesy, right, Sometimes I feel like,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know, I don't want to sound trite, but

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<v Speaker 1>I am very grateful. I'm very I don't know whether

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<v Speaker 1>or not it's genetic or it's something that I've developed,

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<v Speaker 1>but I haven't. I do really have an ever present

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<v Speaker 1>sense of gratitude for how good my life is. And

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<v Speaker 1>maybe it's because I talk to a lot of people

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<v Speaker 1>whose lives are not great, and maybe I pay attention

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<v Speaker 1>to people around the world whose reality is nothing like mine.

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<v Speaker 1>I feel very through no effort or work or sacrifice

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<v Speaker 1>of my own. I feel just very privileged because I

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<v Speaker 1>think I was born at a good time in a

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<v Speaker 1>good country with good parents, and yeah, so that's how

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<v Speaker 1>I feel. Do you feel that ever? I mean, I

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<v Speaker 1>know your childhood wasn't mine, and you've had some shit,

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<v Speaker 1>But do you feel grateful?

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<v Speaker 2>Quite often? Quite often? I mean, you know, sometimes I'm

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<v Speaker 2>just like in the midst of complaining some yeah, sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>over trivial things. Yeah, you know, it's probably my enlarged amigdala,

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<v Speaker 2>But very often I do feel quite grateful. The other

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<v Speaker 2>day I thought, oh, you know, I'm in my house

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<v Speaker 2>right now with my wife. We're both relatively healthy, We've

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<v Speaker 2>got a roof over our head, We're alive, we've got

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<v Speaker 2>a cat. I know he's relatively okay but very healthy.

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<v Speaker 1>Has he given you toxi Plesmoses.

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<v Speaker 2>No, no, no, we were concerned about that. If I

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<v Speaker 2>start engaging in any inexplicably high risk behaviors, we're going

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<v Speaker 2>to drive me down to urgent care check me out. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>but yeah, he's he might be infected with it, either

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<v Speaker 2>that or just I don't know, got bumped on the

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<v Speaker 2>head one too many times.

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<v Speaker 1>But I love them.

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<v Speaker 2>I just want to start out, you know, and this

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<v Speaker 2>is this is a very important conversation around gratitude. I

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<v Speaker 2>just want to start out recanting a statement that I

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<v Speaker 2>made that was highly inaccurate on I think our last

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<v Speaker 2>podcast or the one before that. I had just got

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<v Speaker 2>back from Australia. And I'm not trying to blame this

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<v Speaker 2>on jet lag. Actually, yes, that's exactly what I'm trying

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<v Speaker 2>to do. I'm trying to blame this on jet Lag

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<v Speaker 2>and I had said that there were two hemispheres and

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<v Speaker 2>they were split from east to west. But there's actually

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<v Speaker 2>an eastern and western hemisphere. Like, how did I not?

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<v Speaker 2>How did that not come to mind? It split right

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<v Speaker 2>down Greenwich in England. Oh really Yeah, Like seventy percent

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<v Speaker 2>of London is in one hemisphere, the other bits are

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<v Speaker 2>in another hemisphere. I didn't know my hemisphere. It's literally

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<v Speaker 2>the center of the world.

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<v Speaker 1>When you start talking about two hemispheres, I thought you're

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<v Speaker 1>talking about the brain for a moment, which is what

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<v Speaker 1>we talk about way more than the world now.

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<v Speaker 2>But this time we were talking about global hemispheres and

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<v Speaker 2>we said it was north and south divided into two.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's literally four hemispheres. So take everything I say

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<v Speaker 2>with a grain of salt, because I'm a couple of

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<v Speaker 2>the hemisphere.

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<v Speaker 1>Short, Why do we always talk about the northern hemisphere

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<v Speaker 1>the southern hemisphere, but never eastern norwestern? If that is

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<v Speaker 1>the case.

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<v Speaker 2>I know, it's like I think it's I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>just like a bad pure team. Whoever the marketing team

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<v Speaker 2>is behind the northern and southern hemispheres. I think they're

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<v Speaker 2>they're crushing it. Where the eastern and Western hemisphere, they

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<v Speaker 2>need to think about making some organizational changes.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm glad you've cleared that up, because all of

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<v Speaker 1>our listeners will sleep better tonight knowing that and Northwestern

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<v Speaker 1>very great conversation started to Oh, dear, I was listening

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<v Speaker 1>to this thing the other day. Two dudes talk and

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<v Speaker 1>I can't remember they're both pretty educated, but one was

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<v Speaker 1>talking about the fact that when we get you know,

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<v Speaker 1>like when we've got lots of crap going on, lots

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<v Speaker 1>of problems, lots of challenges, and you know, we're not

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<v Speaker 1>having a great time, and all we want is we

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<v Speaker 1>want the problems to be resolved, things to be fixed,

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<v Speaker 1>life to be better, you know, all that stuff. And

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<v Speaker 1>then he either he'd done some research or he's talking

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<v Speaker 1>about some research where when people get to the point

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<v Speaker 1>where now they have far less problems. So I don't know,

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<v Speaker 1>let's just pretend they've got a quarter of the problems.

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<v Speaker 1>So instead of having twelve problems, they've now got three.

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<v Speaker 1>But what they do is they just self regulate in

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<v Speaker 1>a bad way so that those three problems caused them

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<v Speaker 1>as much stress and trauma as the twelve that they

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<v Speaker 1>used to have. And so even the fact that that

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<v Speaker 1>you know, practically they're life is better. Experientially, it's just

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<v Speaker 1>as shit because they kind of self regulate in a

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<v Speaker 1>bad way to find something to be miserable about.

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<v Speaker 2>That's interesting. Durkheim said the same thing on a societal level,

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<v Speaker 2>that if a society arrives at a point where it

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<v Speaker 2>has resolved many of its existential problems, it will go

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<v Speaker 2>ahead and create them. Will overreact to the slightest provocation,

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<v Speaker 2>Like you know, the supermarket used to have four brands

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<v Speaker 2>of milk and now they're down to three, and this

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<v Speaker 2>is completely unacceptable, and of course Karen's going to want

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<v Speaker 2>to speak to the manager.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you not mention Karen? I feel like poor Karen

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<v Speaker 1>gets a hard time.

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<v Speaker 2>It isn't you know. It's been a rough few years

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<v Speaker 2>for Karen's everywhere. I apologize in my sessions. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know how I landed on this right Well, you.

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<v Speaker 1>And a few million others, Poor Karen.

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<v Speaker 2>Karen thing I'm just repeating because somebody identified that a

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<v Speaker 2>woman named Karen there was the perfect archetype. They imagined

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<v Speaker 2>a woman or someone they know named Karen, and that's

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<v Speaker 2>how it came to be. But for me, it's Jill.

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<v Speaker 2>Whenever I'm doing a workshop, the person in the office

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<v Speaker 2>who is an absolute nightmare is Jill. And I always

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<v Speaker 2>ask at some point anybody in the audience just happens

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<v Speaker 2>to be named Jill, And every so often somebody very

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<v Speaker 2>sheepishly will raise their hand, like after I've completely assassinated

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<v Speaker 2>their character, and I have to go to Jill. Sorry,

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<v Speaker 2>clearly we're not talking about you. It's that other Jill,

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<v Speaker 2>but yeah, you just I think we need a name

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<v Speaker 2>we didn't.

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<v Speaker 1>I tend to use Brian because I think I feel

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<v Speaker 1>like it's safer to use a dude than a fema

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<v Speaker 1>a lady, because just I feel it's safer. But then

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<v Speaker 1>it's not really safe to use. But one of the

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<v Speaker 1>things that people like, I put up a post a

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<v Speaker 1>week ago and it says, the best predictor of future

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<v Speaker 1>behavior is past behavior, which is broadly speaking true. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>It's not it's not guaranteed, but it's pretty good predictor.

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<v Speaker 1>And then I wrote, you may or may not have

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<v Speaker 1>read it. So if Brian was a C word the

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<v Speaker 1>last four hundred times, he'll probably be a C word today, right, So,

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<v Speaker 1>and then all these people sent me a message and

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<v Speaker 1>go my brother's Brian. He's great I and I'm like,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, this is not real, and you know, there's

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<v Speaker 1>not really a Brian. This is me just telling a story.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's like people were coming to the defense of

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<v Speaker 1>other people called Brian. I'm like, well, I wasn't saying

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<v Speaker 1>that this behavior or this kind of personality is representative

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<v Speaker 1>of people called Brian.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like, oh, it's an example. It's not like every Brian. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>if your name happens to be Chad.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, then definitely that's all Chads. Yeah, of course, of

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<v Speaker 1>course that goes without saying no. But it's it's funny that,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I don't want to get myself in trouble,

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<v Speaker 1>but I feel like people actually proacts. Look, fuck, they

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<v Speaker 1>look for reasons to be offended, and if there's not one,

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<v Speaker 1>obviously this is a fictitious character. And I'm not talking

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<v Speaker 1>about people broadly speaking who have that name. No, my

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<v Speaker 1>brother's names and I want you to know he's one

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<v Speaker 1>of the nicest people. And I'm like, I'm sure he is,

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<v Speaker 1>and I don't know him, so clearly this wasn't about him,

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<v Speaker 1>but you know, we sold your on.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I can't even dive into the topic because I will,

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<v Speaker 2>without question, get myself into trouble. Me and you doing

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<v Speaker 2>a podcast episode and trying not to get ourselves in trouble.

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, well, thank you for attending another episode of

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<v Speaker 2>the You Project and the self help Antido. Might as

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<v Speaker 2>well wrap it up right here.

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<v Speaker 1>You're telling me before we went live that without throwing

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<v Speaker 1>you under the bus, but you'd been dealing with a

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<v Speaker 1>few challenging things today and a few you know, a

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<v Speaker 1>bit of stress going on. What's your kind of You're

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<v Speaker 1>in a leadership position, You're a coach or a teacher.

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<v Speaker 1>You kind of manage individuals, lead people, all that stuff,

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<v Speaker 1>well more in a leadership capacity, I guess than a

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<v Speaker 1>management role per se. But how do you approach? And

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<v Speaker 1>I know there's no three step plan or generic kind

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<v Speaker 1>of protocol, but when you're around people that are let's

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<v Speaker 1>just call it what it is, metaphorically losing their shit

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<v Speaker 1>for a good reason or not a good reason, doesn't matter.

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<v Speaker 1>What do you do? Like, how do you what are

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<v Speaker 1>some of the things that you do? Because I feel

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<v Speaker 1>like more and more of us are around people at

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<v Speaker 1>the moment who are struggling, and just again underlining no

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<v Speaker 1>three step plan, we get it, but how do you

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<v Speaker 1>approach it? Man?

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<v Speaker 2>This came up in a seminar I was giving yesterday.

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<v Speaker 2>Actually a question came up where I'm like, ooh, that's

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's above my pea greed. But there are

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of questions along these lines. And it came

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<v Speaker 2>up with because very often we'll experience, especially when we

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<v Speaker 2>really care about the person and we're invested, we won't

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<v Speaker 2>just experience empathy, but will experience emotional contagion. Well, will

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<v Speaker 2>become overwhelmed in that situation, or somebody says something that

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<v Speaker 2>triggers an unresolved issue in our life that we might

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<v Speaker 2>not even realize is unresolved, and we experience what's called

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<v Speaker 2>VI carriage trauma, and that in both of those scenarios,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was kind of doing this a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>with my wife to be really candid, you get into

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<v Speaker 2>a position where you're no longer as readily able to

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<v Speaker 2>act compassionately because empathy is good. Because when you have

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<v Speaker 2>empathy and you can project yourself into the situation, the

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<v Speaker 2>thoughts and behaviors, the feelings of another human being, you're

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<v Speaker 2>more motivated to act on their behalf to help lessen

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<v Speaker 2>their suffering. To a point that you can cross that

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<v Speaker 2>threshold easily, where I've become so consumed with their situation

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<v Speaker 2>that I've crossed the line into sympathy. I'm no longer

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<v Speaker 2>feeling with them, I'm feeling for them, and I'm more

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<v Speaker 2>acutely aware of my own emotional impact listening to their story.

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<v Speaker 2>So the first thing is grounding, like if I know

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<v Speaker 2>that if first of all, do you know you're going

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<v Speaker 2>to go into a high stakes conversation or do you

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<v Speaker 2>not know you're gonna go into a high stakes conversation?

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<v Speaker 2>It's just the peers in the national natural flow of

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<v Speaker 2>the dialogue. I try to find grounding, like yeah, feet

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<v Speaker 2>flat on the floor, Like what am I feeling? An attack?

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<v Speaker 2>Highle way? Second is inter reception. What is the physical sensation?

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<v Speaker 2>Because before you know exactly what you're feeling, you identify

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<v Speaker 2>that something has physiologically changed, and your experience a sensation

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<v Speaker 2>that's coupled with elevated emotional arousal. So where is that

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<v Speaker 2>in my body? I instantly start to go look inside.

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<v Speaker 2>Is it a constriction? Is it like a tensing sensation?

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<v Speaker 2>Where is it? Is it in my chest? Is in

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<v Speaker 2>my jaw? I try to I lean into that a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit, So as I'm talking to them, I'll go

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<v Speaker 2>into that sensation. If I feel it's happening in my chest,

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<v Speaker 2>I'll tighten it further. So if it's at a level six,

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<v Speaker 2>I'll take it up to a level eight and then

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<v Speaker 2>just relax it, like let go of that tension. Second

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<v Speaker 2>thing is I'll start to be mindful, but not mindful

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<v Speaker 2>in terms of what's going on with me what's going

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<v Speaker 2>on with them. I'll deepen the pace or the degree

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<v Speaker 2>at which I listen, and I'm not necessarily talking about words.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm talking about nonverbal like what what's their voice inflection?

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<v Speaker 2>Where is their strain and their voice? Is it on

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<v Speaker 2>a certain word? Is there a change in the spatial

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<v Speaker 2>relationship between me and this person? Do they disengage that,

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<v Speaker 2>do they disassociate, lean back, or do they lean forward

0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:23.760
<v Speaker 2>and decrease the level of space in between us. By

0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:26.760
<v Speaker 2>doing that, I'm not only more tuned to what's happening

0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:32.920
<v Speaker 2>with them, but I'm focusing intentionally on what's happening in

0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:37.439
<v Speaker 2>the moment, moment by moment, So I'm helping to utilize

0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:43.360
<v Speaker 2>mindfulness strategies to create engagement and self regulation in myself.

0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:45.360
<v Speaker 2>That's really useful.

0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:50.040
<v Speaker 1>So a couple of things out of that. So, I mean,

0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:52.160
<v Speaker 1>there's the stuff that people are telling us when they're

0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:54.840
<v Speaker 1>not talking, which is what you're talking about, right, So

0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:57.120
<v Speaker 1>what is he saying? What is she saying that they're

0:13:57.120 --> 0:14:02.760
<v Speaker 1>not saying. There's that, But then there's there's what's in

0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:06.199
<v Speaker 1>front of us, what we see, you know, their physiology,

0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:10.040
<v Speaker 1>their body language, their microexpressions there, you know, and the

0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:12.800
<v Speaker 1>other stuff that's less visible, you know, like the cadence

0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:15.400
<v Speaker 1>and the you know whatever, the timing and all of

0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:19.040
<v Speaker 1>those things. But then there's our ability to be able

0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:24.480
<v Speaker 1>to accurately interpret that, because seeing one thing is something.

0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:30.080
<v Speaker 1>Knowing what that accurately represents, you know, that's another thing.

0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:32.640
<v Speaker 1>Like because it's all well and good to go, Like,

0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:35.080
<v Speaker 1>I've looked at some people and gone, they fucking hate me,

0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:38.560
<v Speaker 1>And they don't hate me, they love me. They're just intrigued.

0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:42.880
<v Speaker 1>But their faces going, their faces go, and you're a prick.

0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:45.800
<v Speaker 1>But that's I'm like, oh, like you and I have

0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:48.840
<v Speaker 1>spoken about in audiences where we think somebody hates us

0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:51.560
<v Speaker 1>and we find out later no, they were just really engrossed.

0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:55.360
<v Speaker 2>Let's unpack that for a bit because you're right, and

0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:59.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm not doing this to accurately interpret what's happening with them.

0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:04.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm doing this to stay anchored to them, to pay

0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:08.400
<v Speaker 2>attention to them, and not kind of leave them as

0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:12.320
<v Speaker 2>I lose myself in my own emotional reaction to their

0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:17.040
<v Speaker 2>situation or their or their experiential state. So I'm kind

0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:21.160
<v Speaker 2>of anchoring myself to this. I'm doing it from care,

0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:25.960
<v Speaker 2>which you know Stephen Porgius talks about that facilitates a

0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:30.840
<v Speaker 2>polyvagal response where we stimulate the eventual nerve branch of

0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:32.160
<v Speaker 2>the vagus nerve.

0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:35.960
<v Speaker 1>Okay, I'd dumb that down force we are.

0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:38.960
<v Speaker 2>We are engaging our nervous system in a way that

0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:45.000
<v Speaker 2>is supporting a parasympathetic state rest and digest. We're moving

0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:48.840
<v Speaker 2>into a greater state of relaxation. I need to stay

0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:54.440
<v Speaker 2>connected to that person, but simultaneously stay connected to myself

0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:58.120
<v Speaker 2>in the moment, so my level of arousal does not

0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:02.000
<v Speaker 2>elevate to the point where one like I'm in a

0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:07.680
<v Speaker 2>very precarious situation, or two I'm completely useless for this

0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:13.360
<v Speaker 2>individual another. So I'm just concentrating on am I I'll

0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:18.120
<v Speaker 2>just exhale for a greater duration than I'm inhaling that

0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:24.040
<v Speaker 2>could be That could be really useful. And if if

0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:28.400
<v Speaker 2>you're in a situation with someone where you just can't

0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:33.480
<v Speaker 2>right and it's not where it would be completely inappropriate

0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:37.720
<v Speaker 2>to end the conversation. It's not like this is a

0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:40.360
<v Speaker 2>sick patient and you're a doctor or you're a therapist,

0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:45.080
<v Speaker 2>then they're in crisis. You could also say, hey, you

0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:49.440
<v Speaker 2>know what, be vulnerable. This is very important to me

0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:55.240
<v Speaker 2>what you're saying. I'm quite invested in this. At the

0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:59.760
<v Speaker 2>same time, i deeply care about you as a person,

0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:04.320
<v Speaker 2>and I'm noticing that I'm having a reaction right now

0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:08.040
<v Speaker 2>where I don't feel I'm being as present as I

0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:12.040
<v Speaker 2>can be with you. Can we take a break? Can?

0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:15.240
<v Speaker 2>Because I want to be able to give this the

0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:18.399
<v Speaker 2>attention that it deserves and bring all of myself to

0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:22.320
<v Speaker 2>this conversation. So when you voice that you're not only

0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:27.800
<v Speaker 2>releasing oxytocin because of that relationship, which there's evidence that

0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:33.480
<v Speaker 2>that could kind of mitigate the cortisol levels in your

0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:39.439
<v Speaker 2>body at the moment, but you're also decreasing the intensity

0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:43.560
<v Speaker 2>that those emotions have over you. It's what doctor Bernie

0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:47.400
<v Speaker 2>Siegel coined, name it to tame it, So you're being

0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:52.120
<v Speaker 2>vulnerable with them, you're being quite present and authentic with them,

0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:58.480
<v Speaker 2>and you're also engaging through that vulnerability in self regulatory practices.

0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:05.560
<v Speaker 2>So that kind of helps. Yeah, that's answering. Am I

0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:06.960
<v Speaker 2>answering your question? I speak?

0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:10.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, No, it's good. I mean, like, we probably don't

0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:12.439
<v Speaker 1>need to say it again, but we'll say it again. Hey, everyone,

0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:14.880
<v Speaker 1>this is not advice. This is two blokes talking about

0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:17.719
<v Speaker 1>human behavior. And both Bobby and I are always in

0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:19.879
<v Speaker 1>front of people, either one on one or with groups,

0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:22.280
<v Speaker 1>and this is just something that we navigate a lot.

0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:24.679
<v Speaker 1>I don't think either of us do it perfectly, probably

0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:28.080
<v Speaker 1>never will, but I like to talk. You know, you

0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:30.600
<v Speaker 1>do what I do. I do what you do slightly different,

0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:34.639
<v Speaker 1>but there's a lot more similarity than dissimilarity. So I'm

0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:40.000
<v Speaker 1>genuinely curious about your perspective and your kind of operating

0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:43.760
<v Speaker 1>system in a similar place to mine. My next question

0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:52.159
<v Speaker 1>is how how do you figure out how much to

0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:56.960
<v Speaker 1>help or intervene or And the reason I say that

0:18:57.119 --> 0:19:03.680
<v Speaker 1>is like I literally coached someone this morning and they

0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:06.520
<v Speaker 1>asked me a question and they weren't really looking for

0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:11.000
<v Speaker 1>an answer. They were looking for endorsement, and I went quite,

0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:14.360
<v Speaker 1>not brutally, but quite, you know, I go, you don't

0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:16.240
<v Speaker 1>need to ask me that that's a dumb question, because

0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:21.320
<v Speaker 1>you know, and they went yeah, I know. I went, okay, good,

0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:24.479
<v Speaker 1>and they weren't hurt, they weren't upset. But I just

0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:29.320
<v Speaker 1>feel like there's a point where helping people becomes unhelpful

0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:33.080
<v Speaker 1>because we still like, we want to support people, love people,

0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:37.000
<v Speaker 1>care for people, but we don't want to become enighblers.

0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:41.440
<v Speaker 1>So now they can't do anything unless we're around. They

0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:45.639
<v Speaker 1>have no resilience, they can't perform under pressure, which is

0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:50.639
<v Speaker 1>where our conversation started. So what's the line where do

0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:53.320
<v Speaker 1>you like so you're.

0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:56.560
<v Speaker 2>Talking about a coaching bast situation. Yeah, I mean like

0:19:56.920 --> 0:19:57.679
<v Speaker 2>you're a client.

0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:00.560
<v Speaker 1>One of the things I used to say to my clients,

0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:02.840
<v Speaker 1>and I meant this and this is a very bad

0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:07.359
<v Speaker 1>business strategy, but it aligned with my ethics. I would

0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:10.240
<v Speaker 1>say to my clients, my job is to teach you

0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:12.080
<v Speaker 1>as much as I can, as quickly as I can,

0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:14.800
<v Speaker 1>to get you up to speed, to help you get

0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:16.640
<v Speaker 1>in the best shape that you can in the time

0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:18.879
<v Speaker 1>that we have without you being injured, To create an

0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:21.720
<v Speaker 1>experience that you enjoy and then for me to get

0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:25.560
<v Speaker 1>out of the way. My job is to make myself redundant, right,

0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:28.119
<v Speaker 1>because I don't want you to be dependent on me,

0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:30.840
<v Speaker 1>because that's great for my ego and my bottom line,

0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:33.600
<v Speaker 1>but it's shitited for you. I want you to become

0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:36.960
<v Speaker 1>the weapon. I want you to become empowered. I want

0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:39.920
<v Speaker 1>you to be resilient. I want you to understand your body.

0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:41.520
<v Speaker 1>I want you to be able to be the calm

0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:44.560
<v Speaker 1>and the chaos. Right. And that's literally or a version

0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:47.680
<v Speaker 1>of that, is what I would say to people. And

0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:51.320
<v Speaker 1>I feel like there's a real juggling act and emotional

0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:54.280
<v Speaker 1>and sociological juggling act sometimes when you're in front of

0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:58.159
<v Speaker 1>people to not do the work for them and to

0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:01.720
<v Speaker 1>not tell them that it's all okay when it actually isn't.

0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:06.400
<v Speaker 2>I agree with you. I mean, in certain situations, you're

0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:09.560
<v Speaker 2>not giving a keynote or a seminar, you're given a workshop. Well,

0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:11.280
<v Speaker 2>people are kind of coming there to be told what

0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:14.480
<v Speaker 2>to do. Here's step number one. Here step if you

0:21:14.600 --> 0:21:17.320
<v Speaker 2>admit that you know it's kind of you know why

0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:20.800
<v Speaker 2>they bought the ticket. So the context of the situation

0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:25.320
<v Speaker 2>speaks to what what the boundaries are there in a

0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:30.400
<v Speaker 2>coaching based conversations, whether I'm doing a group coaching session

0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:34.160
<v Speaker 2>with a group of executives or whether I'm coaching one

0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:36.359
<v Speaker 2>on one.

0:21:36.400 --> 0:21:39.119
<v Speaker 1>Can I interrupt for one sec? Sorry to be a prick.

0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:42.480
<v Speaker 1>Most of our listeners are not coaches, So can we

0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:44.520
<v Speaker 1>fuck off that as a coach? Can we just go

0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:48.520
<v Speaker 1>as a person talking as a person? So just it

0:21:48.560 --> 0:21:51.080
<v Speaker 1>could be a friend, it could be a mum, not

0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:56.240
<v Speaker 1>a client, just another human that you know, And like,

0:21:56.320 --> 0:21:58.600
<v Speaker 1>we don't need to be psychologists or coaches to be

0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:02.000
<v Speaker 1>able to have meaning for conversations with people about So

0:22:02.119 --> 0:22:05.960
<v Speaker 1>let's just if we can make than you like, let's

0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:08.840
<v Speaker 1>make it more because yeah, we're not talking to coaches

0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:11.720
<v Speaker 1>and sichs. We're talking to you know, just our regular

0:22:11.760 --> 0:22:15.479
<v Speaker 1>listener who wants to apply this some Yeah, just as

0:22:16.000 --> 0:22:18.640
<v Speaker 1>relative to the average punter as possible.

0:22:20.600 --> 0:22:26.800
<v Speaker 2>For me. Is there an imminent threat? So somebody tells

0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:32.080
<v Speaker 2>me that they're thinking of hurting themselves, right, or thinking

0:22:32.080 --> 0:22:37.840
<v Speaker 2>about hurting someone else, or they've they've done something that

0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:42.439
<v Speaker 2>is highly injurious, you know, So you're you're you're talking

0:22:42.560 --> 0:22:46.680
<v Speaker 2>to your nephew and they just revealed that they had

0:22:46.920 --> 0:22:51.080
<v Speaker 2>stolen from your brother. Uh. Yeah, those are things where

0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:54.240
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to intervene a lot of the time because

0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:55.800
<v Speaker 2>someone's welfare is at stake.

0:22:56.560 --> 0:22:56.879
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:22:56.960 --> 0:23:00.880
<v Speaker 2>My take on it is whenever you become the solution

0:23:01.080 --> 0:23:04.720
<v Speaker 2>for here's what you need to do, Yeah, you're really

0:23:04.720 --> 0:23:09.280
<v Speaker 2>screwing people up. Because one, there's there's readiness. Just because

0:23:09.320 --> 0:23:11.600
<v Speaker 2>somebody's talking to you about something or asking a question,

0:23:11.640 --> 0:23:15.880
<v Speaker 2>does it mean that they are absolutely ready? And when

0:23:15.960 --> 0:23:24.680
<v Speaker 2>you push readiness people actually they experience recidivism. They relapse

0:23:24.760 --> 0:23:29.439
<v Speaker 2>into lower levels of readiness and preparation for change. The

0:23:29.480 --> 0:23:31.720
<v Speaker 2>second thing is like, let's say they go out and

0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:33.919
<v Speaker 2>they do what you tell them to do and it

0:23:33.960 --> 0:23:38.280
<v Speaker 2>doesn't work. Now what. Or let's say they go out

0:23:38.280 --> 0:23:40.160
<v Speaker 2>and they do exactly what you told them to do

0:23:40.200 --> 0:23:41.200
<v Speaker 2>and it does work.

0:23:41.760 --> 0:23:42.119
<v Speaker 1>Now what.

0:23:43.560 --> 0:23:48.119
<v Speaker 2>They didn't increase in capacity that was your recommendation. They

0:23:48.160 --> 0:23:53.119
<v Speaker 2>didn't increase in self efficacy and competent confidence. You did that.

0:23:53.560 --> 0:23:57.680
<v Speaker 2>So I'm really reluctant to go out and give advice

0:23:57.880 --> 0:24:02.360
<v Speaker 2>because it's not often followed. Sometimes it's more harmful than

0:24:02.400 --> 0:24:04.240
<v Speaker 2>it is helpful. A lot of times, when somebody say,

0:24:04.240 --> 0:24:07.040
<v Speaker 2>say I want to ask you a question, what they're

0:24:07.119 --> 0:24:09.320
<v Speaker 2>really saying is I want to talk things out in

0:24:09.359 --> 0:24:11.840
<v Speaker 2>my head so I can get a little bit greater

0:24:11.920 --> 0:24:15.880
<v Speaker 2>clarity around where I am at the moment. So you

0:24:16.000 --> 0:24:20.440
<v Speaker 2>steal efficacy, you steal confidence. You also steal agency because

0:24:20.480 --> 0:24:23.760
<v Speaker 2>they're not going out there and making mistakes and going, jeez,

0:24:23.760 --> 0:24:26.520
<v Speaker 2>what what happened there? You know, what did I learn

0:24:26.560 --> 0:24:28.560
<v Speaker 2>from that? What did I learn from what went well?

0:24:28.600 --> 0:24:30.760
<v Speaker 2>What did I learn from what I was kind of

0:24:30.800 --> 0:24:33.280
<v Speaker 2>hoping or I thought would go well but it didn't.

0:24:33.400 --> 0:24:38.480
<v Speaker 2>That's interesting. So I think guiding people through reflections and

0:24:38.640 --> 0:24:44.200
<v Speaker 2>open curiosity and inquiry is far more effective than Okay,

0:24:44.200 --> 0:24:46.960
<v Speaker 2>here's what I would do if I was in your situation.

0:24:47.119 --> 0:24:50.560
<v Speaker 2>But you're not in their situation, and you are if

0:24:50.560 --> 0:24:54.639
<v Speaker 2>you haven't noticed, not in fact them they even look different,

0:24:54.640 --> 0:24:57.080
<v Speaker 2>they might have different hair color, they might be different

0:24:57.200 --> 0:24:59.240
<v Speaker 2>height than you. All this, all this kind of weird

0:24:59.280 --> 0:25:01.719
<v Speaker 2>shit shows up up when you pay attention to that stuff.

0:25:02.480 --> 0:25:06.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, And also that old theory of mind chestnut.

0:25:06.840 --> 0:25:09.240
<v Speaker 1>You know, we're in the same conversation but not the

0:25:09.280 --> 0:25:13.520
<v Speaker 1>same experience, you know, and trying to understand, like right now,

0:25:14.760 --> 0:25:17.040
<v Speaker 1>what is their version of what's going on at this

0:25:17.160 --> 0:25:20.359
<v Speaker 1>table because it isn't my version. Yeah, you know, and

0:25:20.600 --> 0:25:23.679
<v Speaker 1>I want to circle back. Could you just unpack a

0:25:23.720 --> 0:25:27.399
<v Speaker 1>little bit, because it's quite a distinction and it's not

0:25:27.520 --> 0:25:30.119
<v Speaker 1>something I've thought about a lot, and I feel like

0:25:30.200 --> 0:25:35.280
<v Speaker 1>I can learn just unpack sympathy versus empathy and just

0:25:35.359 --> 0:25:38.720
<v Speaker 1>relate it to you know, a situation where someone.

0:25:39.359 --> 0:25:44.640
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so empathy is walking alongside of someone I am

0:25:45.040 --> 0:25:47.760
<v Speaker 2>experiencing this with you.

0:25:48.440 --> 0:25:48.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:25:48.760 --> 0:25:55.879
<v Speaker 2>Where sympathy is I feel for you, but not with you.

0:25:56.640 --> 0:25:57.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, right?

0:25:57.119 --> 0:26:07.920
<v Speaker 2>Where where if somebody says, okay, I broke I broke

0:26:08.000 --> 0:26:11.520
<v Speaker 2>up with someone, or someone just broke up with me, yeah,

0:26:11.520 --> 0:26:14.600
<v Speaker 2>and they're talking about, you know, how they feel, and

0:26:14.640 --> 0:26:21.440
<v Speaker 2>it's like you reflect back. Wow, that that rejection. It's

0:26:21.480 --> 0:26:26.200
<v Speaker 2>so isolating, you know, it's like you you gave your

0:26:26.240 --> 0:26:30.320
<v Speaker 2>whole self to someone, you were so open, Yeah, and

0:26:30.359 --> 0:26:32.719
<v Speaker 2>it feels like they threw that away. If it feels

0:26:32.760 --> 0:26:38.879
<v Speaker 2>like you've been thrown away, Yeah, it's devastating. It's just

0:26:39.080 --> 0:26:43.439
<v Speaker 2>you know, all you all you're experiencing right now is

0:26:43.480 --> 0:26:49.679
<v Speaker 2>your pain that is sitting in it with someone. Yeah, sympathy.

0:26:50.640 --> 0:26:53.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm more focused about how this conversation is making me

0:26:53.680 --> 0:26:57.240
<v Speaker 2>feel it's like, oh my god, I remember when I

0:26:57.280 --> 0:26:59.359
<v Speaker 2>was broken up with It was the worst day of

0:26:59.359 --> 0:27:04.080
<v Speaker 2>my life. I thought she was the one, and I'm

0:27:04.160 --> 0:27:10.880
<v Speaker 2>just trying to manage the situation because my feelings are overwhelming.

0:27:10.920 --> 0:27:14.000
<v Speaker 2>It's like, oh, Craig, you know you're a good looking guy.

0:27:14.119 --> 0:27:16.480
<v Speaker 2>What are you talking about. It's like, she wasn't the first,

0:27:16.520 --> 0:27:18.439
<v Speaker 2>She's not going to be the last, and you know,

0:27:18.480 --> 0:27:21.800
<v Speaker 2>I start solving your problem for you. That's I mean,

0:27:22.000 --> 0:27:24.560
<v Speaker 2>it's fresh, it's raw. It might not be fresh maybe

0:27:24.720 --> 0:27:27.240
<v Speaker 2>like this happened two months ago, but it really sucks

0:27:27.240 --> 0:27:30.879
<v Speaker 2>still for this individual. They don't need your autobiography and

0:27:30.920 --> 0:27:34.120
<v Speaker 2>they don't need your solution for their life. It's kind

0:27:34.160 --> 0:27:38.880
<v Speaker 2>of it's kind of offensive too, because you know, empathy

0:27:39.040 --> 0:27:42.000
<v Speaker 2>speaks from the place of I am here with you

0:27:42.160 --> 0:27:46.879
<v Speaker 2>in the pain and discomfort, where sympathy is like, you,

0:27:47.040 --> 0:27:53.840
<v Speaker 2>poor bastard, you're either incapable or unwilling to change your situation.

0:27:54.760 --> 0:27:59.760
<v Speaker 2>It's it's really it's a demeaning way of looking at

0:27:59.800 --> 0:28:06.760
<v Speaker 2>so disguised as something altruistic. Sympathy kind of sucks.

0:28:07.240 --> 0:28:13.400
<v Speaker 3>Wow, okay, okay, you know, like with the whole yeah,

0:28:13.480 --> 0:28:18.359
<v Speaker 3>all right, yeah, yeah, I think we spoke about this

0:28:18.480 --> 0:28:21.560
<v Speaker 3>a week or two ago, that that video It's not.

0:28:21.520 --> 0:28:24.679
<v Speaker 1>About the nail. Do you remember that?

0:28:25.400 --> 0:28:25.600
<v Speaker 2>Yep?

0:28:26.080 --> 0:28:26.639
<v Speaker 1>You know where that?

0:28:26.800 --> 0:28:28.800
<v Speaker 2>Oh wait, that was that us? Because I talk about

0:28:28.800 --> 0:28:29.439
<v Speaker 2>that all the time.

0:28:30.080 --> 0:28:32.520
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if well i've spoken about that.

0:28:32.720 --> 0:28:34.320
<v Speaker 2>I know exactly what you're talking about.

0:28:34.480 --> 0:28:37.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so we won't ruin it for you, and we

0:28:37.119 --> 0:28:40.320
<v Speaker 1>have spoken it probably once or twice. I've definitely spoken

0:28:40.320 --> 0:28:42.840
<v Speaker 1>about a couple of times over the two thousand episodes.

0:28:42.840 --> 0:28:45.520
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, if you want to go and see something

0:28:45.560 --> 0:28:50.200
<v Speaker 1>which is hilarious but also insightful, it's a video on

0:28:50.400 --> 0:28:52.880
<v Speaker 1>YouTube called It's Not about the Nail but it kind

0:28:52.880 --> 0:28:57.760
<v Speaker 1>of so. So to that point, without giving the video away,

0:28:59.400 --> 0:29:03.400
<v Speaker 1>do you think that's like trying to fix things for

0:29:03.560 --> 0:29:07.640
<v Speaker 1>other people? What? What is that? Where does that come in?

0:29:08.120 --> 0:29:08.200
<v Speaker 2>Like?

0:29:08.400 --> 0:29:12.120
<v Speaker 1>Is that ever helpful? Is that? Is that something that

0:29:12.160 --> 0:29:13.200
<v Speaker 1>we should never do?

0:29:15.280 --> 0:29:17.560
<v Speaker 2>Very rarely? I think if you're at the if somebody

0:29:17.680 --> 0:29:21.000
<v Speaker 2>comes to the point where they acknowledge as well, it's

0:29:21.040 --> 0:29:25.000
<v Speaker 2>evident not just to you but to them that they

0:29:25.080 --> 0:29:30.520
<v Speaker 2>have reached the ends of their resources, right yeah, or

0:29:30.560 --> 0:29:34.880
<v Speaker 2>the end of their knowledge, it might be appropriate to

0:29:34.960 --> 0:29:41.840
<v Speaker 2>respectfully say, you know, Craig, I'm I think I'm hearing this.

0:29:42.600 --> 0:29:44.880
<v Speaker 2>I think you're wanting this, and this is kind of

0:29:44.920 --> 0:29:48.959
<v Speaker 2>a barrier. You know, do I have permission to like

0:29:49.040 --> 0:29:51.360
<v Speaker 2>maybe share something with you or how would you feel?

0:29:51.480 --> 0:29:54.960
<v Speaker 2>Is it okay if I share something with you that

0:29:55.280 --> 0:29:58.720
<v Speaker 2>is directive, but it might it may be helpful, Yeah,

0:29:58.960 --> 0:30:01.600
<v Speaker 2>because I think that's a respectful way of saying no,

0:30:01.680 --> 0:30:05.680
<v Speaker 2>it's not this hierarchal relationship where I possess something that

0:30:05.800 --> 0:30:08.720
<v Speaker 2>you need and off. If only you thought like me,

0:30:08.920 --> 0:30:11.000
<v Speaker 2>knew what I knew, saw the world the way I

0:30:11.040 --> 0:30:13.760
<v Speaker 2>saw the world, did what I did, you'd be fixed.

0:30:14.280 --> 0:30:16.000
<v Speaker 2>That's kind of that's a little bit fucked up.

0:30:16.160 --> 0:30:19.600
<v Speaker 1>First of all, that's pretty among other things.

0:30:19.480 --> 0:30:22.160
<v Speaker 2>If anybody does make a change, it's not sustainable. So

0:30:22.520 --> 0:30:25.440
<v Speaker 2>who we're really doing that for? But if I come

0:30:25.480 --> 0:30:29.280
<v Speaker 2>to you respectfully and I frame it like that, person

0:30:29.360 --> 0:30:31.240
<v Speaker 2>might go now, you know, I don't know if I'm

0:30:31.240 --> 0:30:34.080
<v Speaker 2>ready for that, or they might go, oh yeah, go ahead.

0:30:34.680 --> 0:30:39.480
<v Speaker 2>And I always make it clear this might not really

0:30:40.280 --> 0:30:43.200
<v Speaker 2>be relevant to you. You know, this might not fit

0:30:43.280 --> 0:30:46.280
<v Speaker 2>your situation or you know what it might It might

0:30:46.320 --> 0:30:49.080
<v Speaker 2>be the exact thing you're looking for, but not right now,

0:30:50.440 --> 0:30:52.840
<v Speaker 2>I don't hold any expectation that you're going to do

0:30:52.920 --> 0:30:55.760
<v Speaker 2>anything with this. So what you're doing is saying I

0:30:55.760 --> 0:30:56.920
<v Speaker 2>respect your autonomy.

0:30:57.560 --> 0:31:00.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, in a way, you think this is what

0:31:00.760 --> 0:31:04.080
<v Speaker 1>we do every episode, Like we share thoughts and ideas

0:31:04.120 --> 0:31:07.240
<v Speaker 1>and stories and experiences and insights.

0:31:07.920 --> 0:31:10.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we don't have an expectation. Nor wouldn't we get

0:31:10.800 --> 0:31:13.400
<v Speaker 2>offended if it's like I told a story about my

0:31:13.440 --> 0:31:16.000
<v Speaker 2>auntie Sally. I'm making this up. I don't have an

0:31:16.000 --> 0:31:19.280
<v Speaker 2>auntie Sally, and that's that's always bothered me. Actually, but

0:31:19.440 --> 0:31:23.320
<v Speaker 2>my auntie Sally did something, and you know, like I

0:31:23.360 --> 0:31:25.920
<v Speaker 2>think everybody should do that. And if a listener didn't

0:31:25.920 --> 0:31:29.080
<v Speaker 2>go ahead and like, I don't know, get into real estate,

0:31:29.240 --> 0:31:32.600
<v Speaker 2>I'd be somehow offended or slated or felt like, oh

0:31:32.680 --> 0:31:35.520
<v Speaker 2>what a waste of time this episode was? It's just

0:31:35.640 --> 0:31:37.280
<v Speaker 2>that would be pathological, wasn't it.

0:31:38.120 --> 0:31:43.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? What about if we uh turn it around? Now?

0:31:44.960 --> 0:31:49.280
<v Speaker 1>What about you? Like? How how how much do you

0:31:49.520 --> 0:31:53.040
<v Speaker 1>want to open the door to other people about your

0:31:53.040 --> 0:31:55.640
<v Speaker 1>own stuff? Or how often, if it all, do you

0:31:55.720 --> 0:31:59.960
<v Speaker 1>seek advice or feedback or just a sounding board.

0:32:02.000 --> 0:32:04.240
<v Speaker 2>I see sounding boards quite a lot because I have

0:32:04.320 --> 0:32:08.120
<v Speaker 2>a lot of voices in my head, not meaning they're

0:32:08.160 --> 0:32:09.520
<v Speaker 2>not out loud and audible.

0:32:09.640 --> 0:32:11.640
<v Speaker 1>It's not yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's.

0:32:11.520 --> 0:32:14.480
<v Speaker 2>Not a crisis. But we all have different versions of

0:32:14.560 --> 0:32:20.040
<v Speaker 2>myself and of ourselves, and my versions talk quite a bit.

0:32:20.640 --> 0:32:23.560
<v Speaker 2>So for me to sit down with somebody and talk

0:32:23.600 --> 0:32:27.280
<v Speaker 2>through what I'm going through, it just helps me get clearer.

0:32:27.960 --> 0:32:33.480
<v Speaker 2>And just expressing that and having somebody listen is enormously valuable.

0:32:33.840 --> 0:32:37.440
<v Speaker 2>When I say to someone explicitly, what are your thoughts

0:32:37.520 --> 0:32:40.560
<v Speaker 2>about this? I really want to know what their thoughts

0:32:40.640 --> 0:32:43.600
<v Speaker 2>are if I say hey. As a matter of fact,

0:32:43.600 --> 0:32:48.880
<v Speaker 2>I feel like I've gotten a little bit cross with

0:32:49.040 --> 0:32:51.200
<v Speaker 2>people in the past when I was like, all right,

0:32:52.120 --> 0:32:55.560
<v Speaker 2>tell me where I could have done better in this

0:32:55.680 --> 0:32:58.800
<v Speaker 2>situation or talk to me, and they didn't and they

0:32:58.880 --> 0:33:03.720
<v Speaker 2>sugarcoat it. It's like, God, I'm either not worth the discomfort,

0:33:04.160 --> 0:33:07.240
<v Speaker 2>right or I was imposing upon you. You're like, shit,

0:33:07.320 --> 0:33:09.640
<v Speaker 2>Bobby's got an issue he wants to talk about now.

0:33:10.120 --> 0:33:12.120
<v Speaker 2>I was just kind of hoping we'd go grab a

0:33:12.160 --> 0:33:16.640
<v Speaker 2>beer or you know, or maybe you didn't think that

0:33:16.760 --> 0:33:20.040
<v Speaker 2>I would be able to handle it. But for whatever reason,

0:33:20.120 --> 0:33:25.360
<v Speaker 2>that was important information and I didn't get it. Yeah,

0:33:26.160 --> 0:33:30.040
<v Speaker 2>it's just as offensive as I didn't ask you how

0:33:30.080 --> 0:33:34.400
<v Speaker 2>to fix my life and you emphatically laid out your

0:33:34.440 --> 0:33:37.400
<v Speaker 2>blueprint for it. That's kind of not what I was

0:33:37.480 --> 0:33:40.960
<v Speaker 2>asking for either. I think respect for the individual and

0:33:41.160 --> 0:33:46.760
<v Speaker 2>understanding where they're at and being curious and open, but

0:33:47.040 --> 0:33:50.960
<v Speaker 2>also kind of having a belief in that individual and

0:33:51.040 --> 0:33:55.280
<v Speaker 2>you're talking to that they're were sourceful enough to figure

0:33:55.280 --> 0:33:58.240
<v Speaker 2>things out. And if you're curious and you ask a

0:33:58.320 --> 0:34:01.280
<v Speaker 2>question that maybe they'd never asked themselves, or you freeze

0:34:01.360 --> 0:34:04.400
<v Speaker 2>it in a way where it lands differently than the

0:34:04.480 --> 0:34:07.360
<v Speaker 2>ten times they've asked themselves that same question, I think

0:34:07.400 --> 0:34:12.080
<v Speaker 2>that's a much more productive conversation, you know, with friends.

0:34:12.480 --> 0:34:18.680
<v Speaker 1>I mean, yeah, yeah, I think it's like it's tricky

0:34:18.760 --> 0:34:23.520
<v Speaker 1>because like just as a sounding board or whatever. Yeah, fine,

0:34:23.520 --> 0:34:25.439
<v Speaker 1>if somebody goes here my thoughts, what do you think

0:34:25.440 --> 0:34:28.120
<v Speaker 1>of this? From you know, I had this experience. What's

0:34:28.120 --> 0:34:32.000
<v Speaker 1>your take on that? But that's different too. I want

0:34:32.040 --> 0:34:36.279
<v Speaker 1>you to give me external objective, as objective as you

0:34:36.360 --> 0:34:41.000
<v Speaker 1>can be, feedback about me, don't sugarcoat it, don't tell

0:34:41.040 --> 0:34:44.080
<v Speaker 1>me what I want to hear. I feel like people

0:34:44.120 --> 0:34:47.239
<v Speaker 1>want that until they get it, you know, And.

0:34:47.200 --> 0:34:49.520
<v Speaker 2>Oh, I think that's the case a lot of the time. Yeah,

0:34:49.520 --> 0:34:51.800
<v Speaker 2>if you ask for it, be prepared for the answer.

0:34:52.120 --> 0:34:55.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And I think, truthfully ninety nine percent and people

0:34:55.480 --> 0:34:58.440
<v Speaker 1>will not provide that feedback because they're scared too for

0:34:58.440 --> 0:35:02.799
<v Speaker 1>a range of reasons. And I don't blame them, but

0:35:03.600 --> 0:35:05.640
<v Speaker 1>you know, I think, like a lot of times when

0:35:05.680 --> 0:35:08.160
<v Speaker 1>people say, oh, yeah, I love feedback, what they mean

0:35:08.239 --> 0:35:12.640
<v Speaker 1>is I love praise, I love accolades, I love endorsement,

0:35:12.760 --> 0:35:16.480
<v Speaker 1>I love acceptance, and yeah, tell me what, tell me

0:35:16.520 --> 0:35:18.000
<v Speaker 1>what you think, Beau, as long as it's what I

0:35:18.040 --> 0:35:20.799
<v Speaker 1>want to hear, I mean it's and I'm not I'm

0:35:20.880 --> 0:35:24.480
<v Speaker 1>no different, like I reckon, you've given me feedback over

0:35:24.520 --> 0:35:27.360
<v Speaker 1>the years, which was which was definitely on the money

0:35:27.360 --> 0:35:30.240
<v Speaker 1>that probably in the moment I didn't love and maybe

0:35:30.320 --> 0:35:33.480
<v Speaker 1>vice versa. I'm not sure, but definitely like that's for

0:35:33.600 --> 0:35:36.080
<v Speaker 1>me been. One of the challenges is to try and

0:35:37.280 --> 0:35:40.120
<v Speaker 1>I guess ergo my PhD, but try and understand the

0:35:40.160 --> 0:35:43.960
<v Speaker 1>Craig experience for everyone except Craig, you know, like what

0:35:44.080 --> 0:35:46.200
<v Speaker 1>is it like, what does it really like being around me?

0:35:46.280 --> 0:35:50.640
<v Speaker 1>What does what is this behavior or this kind of energy,

0:35:50.840 --> 0:35:53.600
<v Speaker 1>like what does that show up? For up like for

0:35:53.719 --> 0:35:58.080
<v Speaker 1>everyone else, and that because you know, there's that that

0:35:58.160 --> 0:36:00.960
<v Speaker 1>old chestnut, the false consensus of effect where we just

0:36:01.000 --> 0:36:03.040
<v Speaker 1>think that how we think is how they think, and

0:36:03.080 --> 0:36:05.840
<v Speaker 1>what we see is what they see, and our intention

0:36:06.040 --> 0:36:09.000
<v Speaker 1>is their experience and all of that kind of you know,

0:36:09.120 --> 0:36:13.880
<v Speaker 1>very egotistical kind of thinking about reality is that my

0:36:14.000 --> 0:36:16.200
<v Speaker 1>reality is theirs. But then you kind of dig deep

0:36:16.239 --> 0:36:17.960
<v Speaker 1>and you go, no, the only person in the world

0:36:17.960 --> 0:36:21.040
<v Speaker 1>who sees this exactly like me is me. The only

0:36:21.160 --> 0:36:23.880
<v Speaker 1>person in the world remotely in my reality is me.

0:36:24.840 --> 0:36:30.080
<v Speaker 1>You know, So being able to really humbly go all right,

0:36:30.120 --> 0:36:33.560
<v Speaker 1>what is this like? Even just what does this look

0:36:33.680 --> 0:36:34.359
<v Speaker 1>like for you?

0:36:36.239 --> 0:36:38.040
<v Speaker 2>I think where that comes from a little bit. And

0:36:38.320 --> 0:36:41.000
<v Speaker 2>this is on the part of both parties, the person

0:36:41.120 --> 0:36:45.040
<v Speaker 2>asking and the person giving feedback. There is a very

0:36:45.080 --> 0:36:49.960
<v Speaker 2>big difference between a behavior, a pattern of behaviors, and

0:36:50.000 --> 0:36:54.680
<v Speaker 2>an identity. So let's say it's like, look, how come

0:36:54.719 --> 0:36:57.000
<v Speaker 2>we don't how can we don't hang out anymore? And

0:36:57.080 --> 0:37:00.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm just making stuff up off? Yeah, do you really

0:37:01.000 --> 0:37:07.719
<v Speaker 2>want to know? Yeah? Tell me. It's like, well, I

0:37:07.760 --> 0:37:10.520
<v Speaker 2>don't have a lot of time, and you're important to me.

0:37:10.560 --> 0:37:13.520
<v Speaker 2>I enjoy hanging out with you, but you're constantly late,

0:37:13.800 --> 0:37:17.359
<v Speaker 2>and it's become an issue if I say something like that.

0:37:18.280 --> 0:37:23.759
<v Speaker 2>I did not say, because you are always inconsiderate right

0:37:23.920 --> 0:37:28.520
<v Speaker 2>of people's time. You had been late a few times, right, Like,

0:37:28.640 --> 0:37:32.360
<v Speaker 2>that's a fact. We were supposed to meet at seven.

0:37:33.200 --> 0:37:36.920
<v Speaker 2>You consistently rock up at about you know, half past

0:37:37.160 --> 0:37:42.000
<v Speaker 2>or beyond. I've tried to bring it up. You've gotten defensive.

0:37:42.640 --> 0:37:45.560
<v Speaker 2>You know, there's like emotions were running hot. I do

0:37:45.680 --> 0:37:48.040
<v Speaker 2>not mean that you are irresponsible, and this is who

0:37:48.120 --> 0:37:49.920
<v Speaker 2>you are as a human being. And that's why I

0:37:49.920 --> 0:37:52.520
<v Speaker 2>think people get like, no, I'm not like, it's not

0:37:52.800 --> 0:37:57.040
<v Speaker 2>an identity criticism. Like I would trust I would trust

0:37:57.160 --> 0:38:01.000
<v Speaker 2>you to like, let's say, babies for me. You know,

0:38:01.080 --> 0:38:04.560
<v Speaker 2>I would trust you like I would leave three hundred

0:38:05.239 --> 0:38:09.839
<v Speaker 2>dollars on the counter walk away. Totally responsible, totally trustworthy.

0:38:09.840 --> 0:38:14.960
<v Speaker 2>It's in this one specific area. So separate, separate the

0:38:15.120 --> 0:38:20.600
<v Speaker 2>behavior from the person. Avoid absolutes like you never listen

0:38:20.719 --> 0:38:24.360
<v Speaker 2>to me. You always do this very rarely do people

0:38:24.400 --> 0:38:28.520
<v Speaker 2>always or never do anything. I think that's important. Stick

0:38:28.560 --> 0:38:32.520
<v Speaker 2>to what's observable and stick to the impact for you.

0:38:32.880 --> 0:38:37.240
<v Speaker 2>So when this happens, here's what I here's how I feel, right, yeah,

0:38:37.239 --> 0:38:40.640
<v Speaker 2>and here's kind of what I need in this relationship.

0:38:40.760 --> 0:38:44.879
<v Speaker 2>And what I what i'd like to request is this.

0:38:45.560 --> 0:38:49.759
<v Speaker 2>That's a much healthier type of conversation. I think is

0:38:49.800 --> 0:38:52.440
<v Speaker 2>that going to eliminate that now? Because some people, You're right,

0:38:52.880 --> 0:38:56.120
<v Speaker 2>what they're looking for is tell me exactly what it

0:38:56.280 --> 0:38:58.680
<v Speaker 2>is that I want to hear and we've talked about,

0:39:00.080 --> 0:39:02.640
<v Speaker 2>or when somebody tries to tell you what your motivation was,

0:39:03.320 --> 0:39:08.720
<v Speaker 2>I think that's that is a dangerous conversation to get into.

0:39:08.880 --> 0:39:12.160
<v Speaker 2>And I think if somebody gets angry, they have every

0:39:12.239 --> 0:39:16.120
<v Speaker 2>right to get angry because you're suggesting that you know

0:39:16.320 --> 0:39:18.719
<v Speaker 2>something about and people do this all the time. Oh

0:39:18.760 --> 0:39:19.759
<v Speaker 2>will you think that?

0:39:20.360 --> 0:39:20.920
<v Speaker 1>How do you know what?

0:39:20.960 --> 0:39:25.200
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what I'm thinking half the time? How

0:39:25.200 --> 0:39:28.920
<v Speaker 2>do you know? Oh? Well you will you feel this? What?

0:39:29.120 --> 0:39:32.359
<v Speaker 2>Don't tell me how I feel? And that's different ball

0:39:32.400 --> 0:39:34.919
<v Speaker 2>the way, because this came up in a workshop than

0:39:35.160 --> 0:39:39.880
<v Speaker 2>reflecting how someone's feeling. If someone buyings on the table

0:39:40.440 --> 0:39:44.040
<v Speaker 2>saying I can't bull, I can't believe they you know,

0:39:44.600 --> 0:39:49.000
<v Speaker 2>they cancel the project, It's like, Okay, you're you're frustrated

0:39:49.040 --> 0:39:51.720
<v Speaker 2>because you're not telling someone how you're feeling how they're feeling.

0:39:51.800 --> 0:39:56.520
<v Speaker 2>You are reflecting an observation, you're actually empathizing. So those

0:39:56.520 --> 0:39:58.920
<v Speaker 2>are two totally different things with different intentions.

0:40:00.080 --> 0:40:04.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, oh I could do this for a lot

0:40:04.040 --> 0:40:08.080
<v Speaker 1>longer than forty minutes, but today forty minutes is our time. AH.

0:40:08.400 --> 0:40:12.080
<v Speaker 1>Always appreciate you, buddy. How can people find you? Of

0:40:12.120 --> 0:40:15.719
<v Speaker 1>course for self help. Antidote is your podcast. Where else

0:40:15.719 --> 0:40:16.880
<v Speaker 1>can people catch up with you?

0:40:17.800 --> 0:40:21.120
<v Speaker 2>Find me on LinkedIn or at Robertcapuccio dot com.

0:40:21.160 --> 0:40:23.480
<v Speaker 1>Perfect. Thanks buddy, love your guts.

0:40:23.760 --> 0:40:24.360
<v Speaker 2>Thanks Greg,