Speaker 1: Bobby Capuccio, Welcome back to the you project, my.
Speaker 2: Friend, welcome back to the self. How bad to do it?
Speaker 1: Craig going, Hey, it's going good, buddy, life is good.
Speaker 1: It sounds a bit cheesy, right, Sometimes I feel like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't want to sound trite, but
Speaker 1: I am very grateful. I'm very I don't know whether
Speaker 1: or not it's genetic or it's something that I've developed,
Speaker 1: but I haven't. I do really have an ever present
Speaker 1: sense of gratitude for how good my life is. And
Speaker 1: maybe it's because I talk to a lot of people
Speaker 1: whose lives are not great, and maybe I pay attention
Speaker 1: to people around the world whose reality is nothing like mine.
Speaker 1: I feel very through no effort or work or sacrifice
Speaker 1: of my own. I feel just very privileged because I
Speaker 1: think I was born at a good time in a
Speaker 1: good country with good parents, and yeah, so that's how
Speaker 1: I feel. Do you feel that ever? I mean, I
Speaker 1: know your childhood wasn't mine, and you've had some shit,
Speaker 1: But do you feel grateful?
Speaker 2: Quite often? Quite often? I mean, you know, sometimes I'm
Speaker 2: just like in the midst of complaining some yeah, sometimes
Speaker 2: over trivial things. Yeah, you know, it's probably my enlarged amigdala,
Speaker 2: But very often I do feel quite grateful. The other
Speaker 2: day I thought, oh, you know, I'm in my house
Speaker 2: right now with my wife. We're both relatively healthy, We've
Speaker 2: got a roof over our head, We're alive, we've got
Speaker 2: a cat. I know he's relatively okay but very healthy.
Speaker 1: Has he given you toxi Plesmoses.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, we were concerned about that. If I
Speaker 2: start engaging in any inexplicably high risk behaviors, we're going
Speaker 2: to drive me down to urgent care check me out. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but yeah, he's he might be infected with it, either
Speaker 2: that or just I don't know, got bumped on the
Speaker 2: head one too many times.
Speaker 1: But I love them.
Speaker 2: I just want to start out, you know, and this
Speaker 2: is this is a very important conversation around gratitude. I
Speaker 2: just want to start out recanting a statement that I
Speaker 2: made that was highly inaccurate on I think our last
Speaker 2: podcast or the one before that. I had just got
Speaker 2: back from Australia. And I'm not trying to blame this
Speaker 2: on jet lag. Actually, yes, that's exactly what I'm trying
Speaker 2: to do. I'm trying to blame this on jet Lag
Speaker 2: and I had said that there were two hemispheres and
Speaker 2: they were split from east to west. But there's actually
Speaker 2: an eastern and western hemisphere. Like, how did I not?
Speaker 2: How did that not come to mind? It split right
Speaker 2: down Greenwich in England. Oh really Yeah, Like seventy percent
Speaker 2: of London is in one hemisphere, the other bits are
Speaker 2: in another hemisphere. I didn't know my hemisphere. It's literally
Speaker 2: the center of the world.
Speaker 1: When you start talking about two hemispheres, I thought you're
Speaker 1: talking about the brain for a moment, which is what
Speaker 1: we talk about way more than the world now.
Speaker 2: But this time we were talking about global hemispheres and
Speaker 2: we said it was north and south divided into two.
Speaker 2: But it's literally four hemispheres. So take everything I say
Speaker 2: with a grain of salt, because I'm a couple of
Speaker 2: the hemisphere.
Speaker 1: Short, Why do we always talk about the northern hemisphere
Speaker 1: the southern hemisphere, but never eastern norwestern? If that is
Speaker 1: the case.
Speaker 2: I know, it's like I think it's I think it's
Speaker 2: just like a bad pure team. Whoever the marketing team
Speaker 2: is behind the northern and southern hemispheres. I think they're
Speaker 2: they're crushing it. Where the eastern and Western hemisphere, they
Speaker 2: need to think about making some organizational changes.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad you've cleared that up, because all of
Speaker 1: our listeners will sleep better tonight knowing that and Northwestern
Speaker 1: very great conversation started to Oh, dear, I was listening
Speaker 1: to this thing the other day. Two dudes talk and
Speaker 1: I can't remember they're both pretty educated, but one was
Speaker 1: talking about the fact that when we get you know,
Speaker 1: like when we've got lots of crap going on, lots
Speaker 1: of problems, lots of challenges, and you know, we're not
Speaker 1: having a great time, and all we want is we
Speaker 1: want the problems to be resolved, things to be fixed,
Speaker 1: life to be better, you know, all that stuff. And
Speaker 1: then he either he'd done some research or he's talking
Speaker 1: about some research where when people get to the point
Speaker 1: where now they have far less problems. So I don't know,
Speaker 1: let's just pretend they've got a quarter of the problems.
Speaker 1: So instead of having twelve problems, they've now got three.
Speaker 1: But what they do is they just self regulate in
Speaker 1: a bad way so that those three problems caused them
Speaker 1: as much stress and trauma as the twelve that they
Speaker 1: used to have. And so even the fact that that
Speaker 1: you know, practically they're life is better. Experientially, it's just
Speaker 1: as shit because they kind of self regulate in a
Speaker 1: bad way to find something to be miserable about.
Speaker 2: That's interesting. Durkheim said the same thing on a societal level,
Speaker 2: that if a society arrives at a point where it
Speaker 2: has resolved many of its existential problems, it will go
Speaker 2: ahead and create them. Will overreact to the slightest provocation,
Speaker 2: Like you know, the supermarket used to have four brands
Speaker 2: of milk and now they're down to three, and this
Speaker 2: is completely unacceptable, and of course Karen's going to want
Speaker 2: to speak to the manager.
Speaker 1: Can you not mention Karen? I feel like poor Karen
Speaker 1: gets a hard time.
Speaker 2: It isn't you know. It's been a rough few years
Speaker 2: for Karen's everywhere. I apologize in my sessions. I don't
Speaker 2: know how I landed on this right Well, you.
Speaker 1: And a few million others, Poor Karen.
Speaker 2: Karen thing I'm just repeating because somebody identified that a
Speaker 2: woman named Karen there was the perfect archetype. They imagined
Speaker 2: a woman or someone they know named Karen, and that's
Speaker 2: how it came to be. But for me, it's Jill.
Speaker 2: Whenever I'm doing a workshop, the person in the office
Speaker 2: who is an absolute nightmare is Jill. And I always
Speaker 2: ask at some point anybody in the audience just happens
Speaker 2: to be named Jill, And every so often somebody very
Speaker 2: sheepishly will raise their hand, like after I've completely assassinated
Speaker 2: their character, and I have to go to Jill. Sorry,
Speaker 2: clearly we're not talking about you. It's that other Jill,
Speaker 2: but yeah, you just I think we need a name
Speaker 2: we didn't.
Speaker 1: I tend to use Brian because I think I feel
Speaker 1: like it's safer to use a dude than a fema
Speaker 1: a lady, because just I feel it's safer. But then
Speaker 1: it's not really safe to use. But one of the
Speaker 1: things that people like, I put up a post a
Speaker 1: week ago and it says, the best predictor of future
Speaker 1: behavior is past behavior, which is broadly speaking true. Right,
Speaker 1: It's not it's not guaranteed, but it's pretty good predictor.
Speaker 1: And then I wrote, you may or may not have
Speaker 1: read it. So if Brian was a C word the
Speaker 1: last four hundred times, he'll probably be a C word today, right, So,
Speaker 1: and then all these people sent me a message and
Speaker 1: go my brother's Brian. He's great I and I'm like,
Speaker 1: you know, this is not real, and you know, there's
Speaker 1: not really a Brian. This is me just telling a story.
Speaker 1: But it's like people were coming to the defense of
Speaker 1: other people called Brian. I'm like, well, I wasn't saying
Speaker 1: that this behavior or this kind of personality is representative
Speaker 1: of people called Brian.
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, it's an example. It's not like every Brian. Now,
Speaker 2: if your name happens to be Chad.
Speaker 1: Well, then definitely that's all Chads. Yeah, of course, of
Speaker 1: course that goes without saying no. But it's it's funny that,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to get myself in trouble,
Speaker 1: but I feel like people actually proacts. Look, fuck, they
Speaker 1: look for reasons to be offended, and if there's not one,
Speaker 1: obviously this is a fictitious character. And I'm not talking
Speaker 1: about people broadly speaking who have that name. No, my
Speaker 1: brother's names and I want you to know he's one
Speaker 1: of the nicest people. And I'm like, I'm sure he is,
Speaker 1: and I don't know him, so clearly this wasn't about him,
Speaker 1: but you know, we sold your on.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I can't even dive into the topic because I will,
Speaker 2: without question, get myself into trouble. Me and you doing
Speaker 2: a podcast episode and trying not to get ourselves in trouble.
Speaker 2: So yeah, well, thank you for attending another episode of
Speaker 2: the You Project and the self help Antido. Might as
Speaker 2: well wrap it up right here.
Speaker 1: You're telling me before we went live that without throwing
Speaker 1: you under the bus, but you'd been dealing with a
Speaker 1: few challenging things today and a few you know, a
Speaker 1: bit of stress going on. What's your kind of You're
Speaker 1: in a leadership position, You're a coach or a teacher.
Speaker 1: You kind of manage individuals, lead people, all that stuff,
Speaker 1: well more in a leadership capacity, I guess than a
Speaker 1: management role per se. But how do you approach? And
Speaker 1: I know there's no three step plan or generic kind
Speaker 1: of protocol, but when you're around people that are let's
Speaker 1: just call it what it is, metaphorically losing their shit
Speaker 1: for a good reason or not a good reason, doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: What do you do? Like, how do you what are
Speaker 1: some of the things that you do? Because I feel
Speaker 1: like more and more of us are around people at
Speaker 1: the moment who are struggling, and just again underlining no
Speaker 1: three step plan, we get it, but how do you
Speaker 1: approach it? Man?
Speaker 2: This came up in a seminar I was giving yesterday.
Speaker 2: Actually a question came up where I'm like, ooh, that's
Speaker 2: I think that's above my pea greed. But there are
Speaker 2: a lot of questions along these lines. And it came
Speaker 2: up with because very often we'll experience, especially when we
Speaker 2: really care about the person and we're invested, we won't
Speaker 2: just experience empathy, but will experience emotional contagion. Well, will
Speaker 2: become overwhelmed in that situation, or somebody says something that
Speaker 2: triggers an unresolved issue in our life that we might
Speaker 2: not even realize is unresolved, and we experience what's called
Speaker 2: VI carriage trauma, and that in both of those scenarios,
Speaker 2: and I was kind of doing this a little bit
Speaker 2: with my wife to be really candid, you get into
Speaker 2: a position where you're no longer as readily able to
Speaker 2: act compassionately because empathy is good. Because when you have
Speaker 2: empathy and you can project yourself into the situation, the
Speaker 2: thoughts and behaviors, the feelings of another human being, you're
Speaker 2: more motivated to act on their behalf to help lessen
Speaker 2: their suffering. To a point that you can cross that
Speaker 2: threshold easily, where I've become so consumed with their situation
Speaker 2: that I've crossed the line into sympathy. I'm no longer
Speaker 2: feeling with them, I'm feeling for them, and I'm more
Speaker 2: acutely aware of my own emotional impact listening to their story.
Speaker 2: So the first thing is grounding, like if I know
Speaker 2: that if first of all, do you know you're going
Speaker 2: to go into a high stakes conversation or do you
Speaker 2: not know you're gonna go into a high stakes conversation?
Speaker 2: It's just the peers in the national natural flow of
Speaker 2: the dialogue. I try to find grounding, like yeah, feet
Speaker 2: flat on the floor, Like what am I feeling? An attack?
Speaker 2: Highle way? Second is inter reception. What is the physical sensation?
Speaker 2: Because before you know exactly what you're feeling, you identify
Speaker 2: that something has physiologically changed, and your experience a sensation
Speaker 2: that's coupled with elevated emotional arousal. So where is that
Speaker 2: in my body? I instantly start to go look inside.
Speaker 2: Is it a constriction? Is it like a tensing sensation?
Speaker 2: Where is it? Is it in my chest? Is in
Speaker 2: my jaw? I try to I lean into that a
Speaker 2: little bit, So as I'm talking to them, I'll go
Speaker 2: into that sensation. If I feel it's happening in my chest,
Speaker 2: I'll tighten it further. So if it's at a level six,
Speaker 2: I'll take it up to a level eight and then
Speaker 2: just relax it, like let go of that tension. Second
Speaker 2: thing is I'll start to be mindful, but not mindful
Speaker 2: in terms of what's going on with me what's going
Speaker 2: on with them. I'll deepen the pace or the degree
Speaker 2: at which I listen, and I'm not necessarily talking about words.
Speaker 2: I'm talking about nonverbal like what what's their voice inflection?
Speaker 2: Where is their strain and their voice? Is it on
Speaker 2: a certain word? Is there a change in the spatial
Speaker 2: relationship between me and this person? Do they disengage that,
Speaker 2: do they disassociate, lean back, or do they lean forward
Speaker 2: and decrease the level of space in between us. By
Speaker 2: doing that, I'm not only more tuned to what's happening
Speaker 2: with them, but I'm focusing intentionally on what's happening in
Speaker 2: the moment, moment by moment, So I'm helping to utilize
Speaker 2: mindfulness strategies to create engagement and self regulation in myself.
Speaker 2: That's really useful.
Speaker 1: So a couple of things out of that. So, I mean,
Speaker 1: there's the stuff that people are telling us when they're
Speaker 1: not talking, which is what you're talking about, right, So
Speaker 1: what is he saying? What is she saying that they're
Speaker 1: not saying. There's that, But then there's there's what's in
Speaker 1: front of us, what we see, you know, their physiology,
Speaker 1: their body language, their microexpressions there, you know, and the
Speaker 1: other stuff that's less visible, you know, like the cadence
Speaker 1: and the you know whatever, the timing and all of
Speaker 1: those things. But then there's our ability to be able
Speaker 1: to accurately interpret that, because seeing one thing is something.
Speaker 1: Knowing what that accurately represents, you know, that's another thing.
Speaker 1: Like because it's all well and good to go, Like,
Speaker 1: I've looked at some people and gone, they fucking hate me,
Speaker 1: And they don't hate me, they love me. They're just intrigued.
Speaker 1: But their faces going, their faces go, and you're a prick.
Speaker 1: But that's I'm like, oh, like you and I have
Speaker 1: spoken about in audiences where we think somebody hates us
Speaker 1: and we find out later no, they were just really engrossed.
Speaker 2: Let's unpack that for a bit because you're right, and
Speaker 2: I'm not doing this to accurately interpret what's happening with them.
Speaker 2: I'm doing this to stay anchored to them, to pay
Speaker 2: attention to them, and not kind of leave them as
Speaker 2: I lose myself in my own emotional reaction to their
Speaker 2: situation or their or their experiential state. So I'm kind
Speaker 2: of anchoring myself to this. I'm doing it from care,
Speaker 2: which you know Stephen Porgius talks about that facilitates a
Speaker 2: polyvagal response where we stimulate the eventual nerve branch of
Speaker 2: the vagus nerve.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'd dumb that down force we are.
Speaker 2: We are engaging our nervous system in a way that
Speaker 2: is supporting a parasympathetic state rest and digest. We're moving
Speaker 2: into a greater state of relaxation. I need to stay
Speaker 2: connected to that person, but simultaneously stay connected to myself
Speaker 2: in the moment, so my level of arousal does not
Speaker 2: elevate to the point where one like I'm in a
Speaker 2: very precarious situation, or two I'm completely useless for this
Speaker 2: individual another. So I'm just concentrating on am I I'll
Speaker 2: just exhale for a greater duration than I'm inhaling that
Speaker 2: could be That could be really useful. And if if
Speaker 2: you're in a situation with someone where you just can't
Speaker 2: right and it's not where it would be completely inappropriate
Speaker 2: to end the conversation. It's not like this is a
Speaker 2: sick patient and you're a doctor or you're a therapist,
Speaker 2: then they're in crisis. You could also say, hey, you
Speaker 2: know what, be vulnerable. This is very important to me
Speaker 2: what you're saying. I'm quite invested in this. At the
Speaker 2: same time, i deeply care about you as a person,
Speaker 2: and I'm noticing that I'm having a reaction right now
Speaker 2: where I don't feel I'm being as present as I
Speaker 2: can be with you. Can we take a break? Can?
Speaker 2: Because I want to be able to give this the
Speaker 2: attention that it deserves and bring all of myself to
Speaker 2: this conversation. So when you voice that you're not only
Speaker 2: releasing oxytocin because of that relationship, which there's evidence that
Speaker 2: that could kind of mitigate the cortisol levels in your
Speaker 2: body at the moment, but you're also decreasing the intensity
Speaker 2: that those emotions have over you. It's what doctor Bernie
Speaker 2: Siegel coined, name it to tame it, So you're being
Speaker 2: vulnerable with them, you're being quite present and authentic with them,
Speaker 2: and you're also engaging through that vulnerability in self regulatory practices.
Speaker 2: So that kind of helps. Yeah, that's answering. Am I
Speaker 2: answering your question? I speak?
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, it's good. I mean, like, we probably don't
Speaker 1: need to say it again, but we'll say it again. Hey, everyone,
Speaker 1: this is not advice. This is two blokes talking about
Speaker 1: human behavior. And both Bobby and I are always in
Speaker 1: front of people, either one on one or with groups,
Speaker 1: and this is just something that we navigate a lot.
Speaker 1: I don't think either of us do it perfectly, probably
Speaker 1: never will, but I like to talk. You know, you
Speaker 1: do what I do. I do what you do slightly different,
Speaker 1: but there's a lot more similarity than dissimilarity. So I'm
Speaker 1: genuinely curious about your perspective and your kind of operating
Speaker 1: system in a similar place to mine. My next question
Speaker 1: is how how do you figure out how much to
Speaker 1: help or intervene or And the reason I say that
Speaker 1: is like I literally coached someone this morning and they
Speaker 1: asked me a question and they weren't really looking for
Speaker 1: an answer. They were looking for endorsement, and I went quite,
Speaker 1: not brutally, but quite, you know, I go, you don't
Speaker 1: need to ask me that that's a dumb question, because
Speaker 1: you know, and they went yeah, I know. I went, okay, good,
Speaker 1: and they weren't hurt, they weren't upset. But I just
Speaker 1: feel like there's a point where helping people becomes unhelpful
Speaker 1: because we still like, we want to support people, love people,
Speaker 1: care for people, but we don't want to become enighblers.
Speaker 1: So now they can't do anything unless we're around. They
Speaker 1: have no resilience, they can't perform under pressure, which is
Speaker 1: where our conversation started. So what's the line where do
Speaker 1: you like so you're.
Speaker 2: Talking about a coaching bast situation. Yeah, I mean like
Speaker 2: you're a client.
Speaker 1: One of the things I used to say to my clients,
Speaker 1: and I meant this and this is a very bad
Speaker 1: business strategy, but it aligned with my ethics. I would
Speaker 1: say to my clients, my job is to teach you
Speaker 1: as much as I can, as quickly as I can,
Speaker 1: to get you up to speed, to help you get
Speaker 1: in the best shape that you can in the time
Speaker 1: that we have without you being injured, To create an
Speaker 1: experience that you enjoy and then for me to get
Speaker 1: out of the way. My job is to make myself redundant, right,
Speaker 1: because I don't want you to be dependent on me,
Speaker 1: because that's great for my ego and my bottom line,
Speaker 1: but it's shitited for you. I want you to become
Speaker 1: the weapon. I want you to become empowered. I want
Speaker 1: you to be resilient. I want you to understand your body.
Speaker 1: I want you to be able to be the calm
Speaker 1: and the chaos. Right. And that's literally or a version
Speaker 1: of that, is what I would say to people. And
Speaker 1: I feel like there's a real juggling act and emotional
Speaker 1: and sociological juggling act sometimes when you're in front of
Speaker 1: people to not do the work for them and to
Speaker 1: not tell them that it's all okay when it actually isn't.
Speaker 2: I agree with you. I mean, in certain situations, you're
Speaker 2: not giving a keynote or a seminar, you're given a workshop. Well,
Speaker 2: people are kind of coming there to be told what
Speaker 2: to do. Here's step number one. Here step if you
Speaker 2: admit that you know it's kind of you know why
Speaker 2: they bought the ticket. So the context of the situation
Speaker 2: speaks to what what the boundaries are there in a
Speaker 2: coaching based conversations, whether I'm doing a group coaching session
Speaker 2: with a group of executives or whether I'm coaching one
Speaker 2: on one.
Speaker 1: Can I interrupt for one sec? Sorry to be a prick.
Speaker 1: Most of our listeners are not coaches, So can we
Speaker 1: fuck off that as a coach? Can we just go
Speaker 1: as a person talking as a person? So just it
Speaker 1: could be a friend, it could be a mum, not
Speaker 1: a client, just another human that you know, And like,
Speaker 1: we don't need to be psychologists or coaches to be
Speaker 1: able to have meaning for conversations with people about So
Speaker 1: let's just if we can make than you like, let's
Speaker 1: make it more because yeah, we're not talking to coaches
Speaker 1: and sichs. We're talking to you know, just our regular
Speaker 1: listener who wants to apply this some Yeah, just as
Speaker 1: relative to the average punter as possible.
Speaker 2: For me. Is there an imminent threat? So somebody tells
Speaker 2: me that they're thinking of hurting themselves, right, or thinking
Speaker 2: about hurting someone else, or they've they've done something that
Speaker 2: is highly injurious, you know, So you're you're you're talking
Speaker 2: to your nephew and they just revealed that they had
Speaker 2: stolen from your brother. Uh. Yeah, those are things where
Speaker 2: I'm going to intervene a lot of the time because
Speaker 2: someone's welfare is at stake.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: My take on it is whenever you become the solution
Speaker 2: for here's what you need to do, Yeah, you're really
Speaker 2: screwing people up. Because one, there's there's readiness. Just because
Speaker 2: somebody's talking to you about something or asking a question,
Speaker 2: does it mean that they are absolutely ready? And when
Speaker 2: you push readiness people actually they experience recidivism. They relapse
Speaker 2: into lower levels of readiness and preparation for change. The
Speaker 2: second thing is like, let's say they go out and
Speaker 2: they do what you tell them to do and it
Speaker 2: doesn't work. Now what. Or let's say they go out
Speaker 2: and they do exactly what you told them to do
Speaker 2: and it does work.
Speaker 1: Now what.
Speaker 2: They didn't increase in capacity that was your recommendation. They
Speaker 2: didn't increase in self efficacy and competent confidence. You did that.
Speaker 2: So I'm really reluctant to go out and give advice
Speaker 2: because it's not often followed. Sometimes it's more harmful than
Speaker 2: it is helpful. A lot of times, when somebody say,
Speaker 2: say I want to ask you a question, what they're
Speaker 2: really saying is I want to talk things out in
Speaker 2: my head so I can get a little bit greater
Speaker 2: clarity around where I am at the moment. So you
Speaker 2: steal efficacy, you steal confidence. You also steal agency because
Speaker 2: they're not going out there and making mistakes and going, jeez,
Speaker 2: what what happened there? You know, what did I learn
Speaker 2: from that? What did I learn from what went well?
Speaker 2: What did I learn from what I was kind of
Speaker 2: hoping or I thought would go well but it didn't.
Speaker 2: That's interesting. So I think guiding people through reflections and
Speaker 2: open curiosity and inquiry is far more effective than Okay,
Speaker 2: here's what I would do if I was in your situation.
Speaker 2: But you're not in their situation, and you are if
Speaker 2: you haven't noticed, not in fact them they even look different,
Speaker 2: they might have different hair color, they might be different
Speaker 2: height than you. All this, all this kind of weird
Speaker 2: shit shows up up when you pay attention to that stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And also that old theory of mind chestnut.
Speaker 1: You know, we're in the same conversation but not the
Speaker 1: same experience, you know, and trying to understand, like right now,
Speaker 1: what is their version of what's going on at this
Speaker 1: table because it isn't my version. Yeah, you know, and
Speaker 1: I want to circle back. Could you just unpack a
Speaker 1: little bit, because it's quite a distinction and it's not
Speaker 1: something I've thought about a lot, and I feel like
Speaker 1: I can learn just unpack sympathy versus empathy and just
Speaker 1: relate it to you know, a situation where someone.
Speaker 2: Okay, so empathy is walking alongside of someone I am
Speaker 2: experiencing this with you.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Where sympathy is I feel for you, but not with you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, right?
Speaker 2: Where where if somebody says, okay, I broke I broke
Speaker 2: up with someone, or someone just broke up with me, yeah,
Speaker 2: and they're talking about, you know, how they feel, and
Speaker 2: it's like you reflect back. Wow, that that rejection. It's
Speaker 2: so isolating, you know, it's like you you gave your
Speaker 2: whole self to someone, you were so open, Yeah, and
Speaker 2: it feels like they threw that away. If it feels
Speaker 2: like you've been thrown away, Yeah, it's devastating. It's just
Speaker 2: you know, all you all you're experiencing right now is
Speaker 2: your pain that is sitting in it with someone. Yeah, sympathy.
Speaker 2: I'm more focused about how this conversation is making me
Speaker 2: feel it's like, oh my god, I remember when I
Speaker 2: was broken up with It was the worst day of
Speaker 2: my life. I thought she was the one, and I'm
Speaker 2: just trying to manage the situation because my feelings are overwhelming.
Speaker 2: It's like, oh, Craig, you know you're a good looking guy.
Speaker 2: What are you talking about. It's like, she wasn't the first,
Speaker 2: She's not going to be the last, and you know,
Speaker 2: I start solving your problem for you. That's I mean,
Speaker 2: it's fresh, it's raw. It might not be fresh maybe
Speaker 2: like this happened two months ago, but it really sucks
Speaker 2: still for this individual. They don't need your autobiography and
Speaker 2: they don't need your solution for their life. It's kind
Speaker 2: of it's kind of offensive too, because you know, empathy
Speaker 2: speaks from the place of I am here with you
Speaker 2: in the pain and discomfort, where sympathy is like, you,
Speaker 2: poor bastard, you're either incapable or unwilling to change your situation.
Speaker 2: It's it's really it's a demeaning way of looking at
Speaker 2: so disguised as something altruistic. Sympathy kind of sucks.
Speaker 3: Wow, okay, okay, you know, like with the whole yeah,
Speaker 3: all right, yeah, yeah, I think we spoke about this
Speaker 3: a week or two ago, that that video It's not.
Speaker 1: About the nail. Do you remember that?
Speaker 2: Yep?
Speaker 1: You know where that?
Speaker 2: Oh wait, that was that us? Because I talk about
Speaker 2: that all the time.
Speaker 1: I don't know if well i've spoken about that.
Speaker 2: I know exactly what you're talking about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we won't ruin it for you, and we
Speaker 1: have spoken it probably once or twice. I've definitely spoken
Speaker 1: about a couple of times over the two thousand episodes.
Speaker 1: But yeah, if you want to go and see something
Speaker 1: which is hilarious but also insightful, it's a video on
Speaker 1: YouTube called It's Not about the Nail but it kind
Speaker 1: of so. So to that point, without giving the video away,
Speaker 1: do you think that's like trying to fix things for
Speaker 1: other people? What? What is that? Where does that come in?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: Is that ever helpful? Is that? Is that something that
Speaker 1: we should never do?
Speaker 2: Very rarely? I think if you're at the if somebody
Speaker 2: comes to the point where they acknowledge as well, it's
Speaker 2: evident not just to you but to them that they
Speaker 2: have reached the ends of their resources, right yeah, or
Speaker 2: the end of their knowledge, it might be appropriate to
Speaker 2: respectfully say, you know, Craig, I'm I think I'm hearing this.
Speaker 2: I think you're wanting this, and this is kind of
Speaker 2: a barrier. You know, do I have permission to like
Speaker 2: maybe share something with you or how would you feel?
Speaker 2: Is it okay if I share something with you that
Speaker 2: is directive, but it might it may be helpful, Yeah,
Speaker 2: because I think that's a respectful way of saying no,
Speaker 2: it's not this hierarchal relationship where I possess something that
Speaker 2: you need and off. If only you thought like me,
Speaker 2: knew what I knew, saw the world the way I
Speaker 2: saw the world, did what I did, you'd be fixed.
Speaker 2: That's kind of that's a little bit fucked up.
Speaker 1: First of all, that's pretty among other things.
Speaker 2: If anybody does make a change, it's not sustainable. So
Speaker 2: who we're really doing that for? But if I come
Speaker 2: to you respectfully and I frame it like that, person
Speaker 2: might go now, you know, I don't know if I'm
Speaker 2: ready for that, or they might go, oh yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2: And I always make it clear this might not really
Speaker 2: be relevant to you. You know, this might not fit
Speaker 2: your situation or you know what it might It might
Speaker 2: be the exact thing you're looking for, but not right now,
Speaker 2: I don't hold any expectation that you're going to do
Speaker 2: anything with this. So what you're doing is saying I
Speaker 2: respect your autonomy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, in a way, you think this is what
Speaker 1: we do every episode, Like we share thoughts and ideas
Speaker 1: and stories and experiences and insights.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't have an expectation. Nor wouldn't we get
Speaker 2: offended if it's like I told a story about my
Speaker 2: auntie Sally. I'm making this up. I don't have an
Speaker 2: auntie Sally, and that's that's always bothered me. Actually, but
Speaker 2: my auntie Sally did something, and you know, like I
Speaker 2: think everybody should do that. And if a listener didn't
Speaker 2: go ahead and like, I don't know, get into real estate,
Speaker 2: I'd be somehow offended or slated or felt like, oh
Speaker 2: what a waste of time this episode was? It's just
Speaker 2: that would be pathological, wasn't it.
Speaker 1: Yeah? What about if we uh turn it around? Now?
Speaker 1: What about you? Like? How how how much do you
Speaker 1: want to open the door to other people about your
Speaker 1: own stuff? Or how often, if it all, do you
Speaker 1: seek advice or feedback or just a sounding board.
Speaker 2: I see sounding boards quite a lot because I have
Speaker 2: a lot of voices in my head, not meaning they're
Speaker 2: not out loud and audible.
Speaker 1: It's not yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's.
Speaker 2: Not a crisis. But we all have different versions of
Speaker 2: myself and of ourselves, and my versions talk quite a bit.
Speaker 2: So for me to sit down with somebody and talk
Speaker 2: through what I'm going through, it just helps me get clearer.
Speaker 2: And just expressing that and having somebody listen is enormously valuable.
Speaker 2: When I say to someone explicitly, what are your thoughts
Speaker 2: about this? I really want to know what their thoughts
Speaker 2: are if I say hey. As a matter of fact,
Speaker 2: I feel like I've gotten a little bit cross with
Speaker 2: people in the past when I was like, all right,
Speaker 2: tell me where I could have done better in this
Speaker 2: situation or talk to me, and they didn't and they
Speaker 2: sugarcoat it. It's like, God, I'm either not worth the discomfort,
Speaker 2: right or I was imposing upon you. You're like, shit,
Speaker 2: Bobby's got an issue he wants to talk about now.
Speaker 2: I was just kind of hoping we'd go grab a
Speaker 2: beer or you know, or maybe you didn't think that
Speaker 2: I would be able to handle it. But for whatever reason,
Speaker 2: that was important information and I didn't get it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's just as offensive as I didn't ask you how
Speaker 2: to fix my life and you emphatically laid out your
Speaker 2: blueprint for it. That's kind of not what I was
Speaker 2: asking for either. I think respect for the individual and
Speaker 2: understanding where they're at and being curious and open, but
Speaker 2: also kind of having a belief in that individual and
Speaker 2: you're talking to that they're were sourceful enough to figure
Speaker 2: things out. And if you're curious and you ask a
Speaker 2: question that maybe they'd never asked themselves, or you freeze
Speaker 2: it in a way where it lands differently than the
Speaker 2: ten times they've asked themselves that same question, I think
Speaker 2: that's a much more productive conversation, you know, with friends.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, yeah, I think it's like it's tricky
Speaker 1: because like just as a sounding board or whatever. Yeah, fine,
Speaker 1: if somebody goes here my thoughts, what do you think
Speaker 1: of this? From you know, I had this experience. What's
Speaker 1: your take on that? But that's different too. I want
Speaker 1: you to give me external objective, as objective as you
Speaker 1: can be, feedback about me, don't sugarcoat it, don't tell
Speaker 1: me what I want to hear. I feel like people
Speaker 1: want that until they get it, you know, And.
Speaker 2: Oh, I think that's the case a lot of the time. Yeah,
Speaker 2: if you ask for it, be prepared for the answer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think, truthfully ninety nine percent and people
Speaker 1: will not provide that feedback because they're scared too for
Speaker 1: a range of reasons. And I don't blame them, but
Speaker 1: you know, I think, like a lot of times when
Speaker 1: people say, oh, yeah, I love feedback, what they mean
Speaker 1: is I love praise, I love accolades, I love endorsement,
Speaker 1: I love acceptance, and yeah, tell me what, tell me
Speaker 1: what you think, Beau, as long as it's what I
Speaker 1: want to hear, I mean it's and I'm not I'm
Speaker 1: no different, like I reckon, you've given me feedback over
Speaker 1: the years, which was which was definitely on the money
Speaker 1: that probably in the moment I didn't love and maybe
Speaker 1: vice versa. I'm not sure, but definitely like that's for
Speaker 1: me been. One of the challenges is to try and
Speaker 1: I guess ergo my PhD, but try and understand the
Speaker 1: Craig experience for everyone except Craig, you know, like what
Speaker 1: is it like, what does it really like being around me?
Speaker 1: What does what is this behavior or this kind of energy,
Speaker 1: like what does that show up? For up like for
Speaker 1: everyone else, and that because you know, there's that that
Speaker 1: old chestnut, the false consensus of effect where we just
Speaker 1: think that how we think is how they think, and
Speaker 1: what we see is what they see, and our intention
Speaker 1: is their experience and all of that kind of you know,
Speaker 1: very egotistical kind of thinking about reality is that my
Speaker 1: reality is theirs. But then you kind of dig deep
Speaker 1: and you go, no, the only person in the world
Speaker 1: who sees this exactly like me is me. The only
Speaker 1: person in the world remotely in my reality is me.
Speaker 1: You know, So being able to really humbly go all right,
Speaker 1: what is this like? Even just what does this look
Speaker 1: like for you?
Speaker 2: I think where that comes from a little bit. And
Speaker 2: this is on the part of both parties, the person
Speaker 2: asking and the person giving feedback. There is a very
Speaker 2: big difference between a behavior, a pattern of behaviors, and
Speaker 2: an identity. So let's say it's like, look, how come
Speaker 2: we don't how can we don't hang out anymore? And
Speaker 2: I'm just making stuff up off? Yeah, do you really
Speaker 2: want to know? Yeah? Tell me. It's like, well, I
Speaker 2: don't have a lot of time, and you're important to me.
Speaker 2: I enjoy hanging out with you, but you're constantly late,
Speaker 2: and it's become an issue if I say something like that.
Speaker 2: I did not say, because you are always inconsiderate right
Speaker 2: of people's time. You had been late a few times, right, Like,
Speaker 2: that's a fact. We were supposed to meet at seven.
Speaker 2: You consistently rock up at about you know, half past
Speaker 2: or beyond. I've tried to bring it up. You've gotten defensive.
Speaker 2: You know, there's like emotions were running hot. I do
Speaker 2: not mean that you are irresponsible, and this is who
Speaker 2: you are as a human being. And that's why I
Speaker 2: think people get like, no, I'm not like, it's not
Speaker 2: an identity criticism. Like I would trust I would trust
Speaker 2: you to like, let's say, babies for me. You know,
Speaker 2: I would trust you like I would leave three hundred
Speaker 2: dollars on the counter walk away. Totally responsible, totally trustworthy.
Speaker 2: It's in this one specific area. So separate, separate the
Speaker 2: behavior from the person. Avoid absolutes like you never listen
Speaker 2: to me. You always do this very rarely do people
Speaker 2: always or never do anything. I think that's important. Stick
Speaker 2: to what's observable and stick to the impact for you.
Speaker 2: So when this happens, here's what I here's how I feel, right, yeah,
Speaker 2: and here's kind of what I need in this relationship.
Speaker 2: And what I what i'd like to request is this.
Speaker 2: That's a much healthier type of conversation. I think is
Speaker 2: that going to eliminate that now? Because some people, You're right,
Speaker 2: what they're looking for is tell me exactly what it
Speaker 2: is that I want to hear and we've talked about,
Speaker 2: or when somebody tries to tell you what your motivation was,
Speaker 2: I think that's that is a dangerous conversation to get into.
Speaker 2: And I think if somebody gets angry, they have every
Speaker 2: right to get angry because you're suggesting that you know
Speaker 2: something about and people do this all the time. Oh
Speaker 2: will you think that?
Speaker 1: How do you know what?
Speaker 2: I don't know what I'm thinking half the time? How
Speaker 2: do you know? Oh? Well you will you feel this? What?
Speaker 2: Don't tell me how I feel? And that's different ball
Speaker 2: the way, because this came up in a workshop than
Speaker 2: reflecting how someone's feeling. If someone buyings on the table
Speaker 2: saying I can't bull, I can't believe they you know,
Speaker 2: they cancel the project, It's like, Okay, you're you're frustrated
Speaker 2: because you're not telling someone how you're feeling how they're feeling.
Speaker 2: You are reflecting an observation, you're actually empathizing. So those
Speaker 2: are two totally different things with different intentions.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, oh I could do this for a lot
Speaker 1: longer than forty minutes, but today forty minutes is our time. AH.
Speaker 1: Always appreciate you, buddy. How can people find you? Of
Speaker 1: course for self help. Antidote is your podcast. Where else
Speaker 1: can people catch up with you?
Speaker 2: Find me on LinkedIn or at Robertcapuccio dot com.
Speaker 1: Perfect. Thanks buddy, love your guts.
Speaker 2: Thanks Greg,