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Speaker 1: My version of hair and make coumpies. I've got Lord

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Speaker 1: to shave my head this morning.

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Speaker 2: Camera ready from The Australian. This is the weekend edition

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Speaker 2: of the Front. I'm Claire Harvey, BNRL Grand finalist here

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Speaker 2: and as well as a phenomenal clash on the field,

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Speaker 2: fans will be treated to a short set from Teddy Swims.

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Speaker 2: Reactions were mixed when Swims was announced as this year's headliner.

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Speaker 2: One Footy fan took to social media saying Teddy who

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Speaker 2: only Teddy I know? Plays full back at the Roosters.

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Speaker 2: But while Swims might not be every footy fans cup

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Speaker 2: of tea, he has over forty three million monthly listeners

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Speaker 2: on Spotify and his smash hit Lose Control has been

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Speaker 2: streamed over two billion times. The Australian's audio lead, Jasper Leikue,

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Speaker 2: joins me today to unpack the NRL's decision to book Swims,

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Speaker 2: the AFL's decision to book Snoop Dogg, and when the

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Speaker 2: big codes have gotten it right. So let's start by

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Speaker 2: listening to a bit of Lose Control. Something's got a

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Speaker 2: hold on me lately, on myself, and.

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Speaker 1: As Peter Vlandi said, he can sing he.

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Speaker 2: Can sing, and the Devil's knocking.

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Speaker 3: The production SKW is really sort of like retro sixties

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Speaker 3: soul ballad.

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Speaker 1: The songwriting also follows that formula.

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Speaker 3: But I think what makes it interesting is you've got

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Speaker 3: this kind of young white guy who's covered in tattoos

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Speaker 3: convincingly singing that sort of a song, and that's a

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Speaker 3: great song. I think when the chorus lands, that's not

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Speaker 3: forget melody naturally, face melting guitar solo as the musical bridge.

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Speaker 3: They've stayed really true to that aesthetic that everybody who

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Speaker 3: likes and grew up listening to music like Eda James

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Speaker 3: or Sam Cook. They've sort of stayed really true to

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Speaker 3: that style of production and instrumentation.

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Speaker 2: I feel like every generation kind of discovers soul.

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Speaker 1: Yes again, Yeah, it's so true.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember when the movie The Commitments came out. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I love it, and suddenly a whole generation is like, wow,

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Speaker 2: this is incredible. And they were white Irish people seeing

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Speaker 2: like black people from the sixties. You know, they sounded

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Speaker 2: like they could have come out of Motown.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 3: And then ten years later you probably had you know,

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Speaker 3: Macy Gray, and then maybe five years after that you

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Speaker 3: had Joss Stone, remember her, and then sort of around

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Speaker 3: that time we also had Amy Whitehouse.

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Speaker 2: So the main writer on that song was Jayson Dimsdale,

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Speaker 2: which is Teddy Swim's.

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Speaker 1: Real name, right, Okay.

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Speaker 2: He uses the stage name Teddy Swims, which is itself

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Speaker 2: a name that comes out of internet culture. Swims stands

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Speaker 2: for someone who isn't me sometimes, okay, And it's a

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Speaker 2: joke right from kind of internet forums when they were

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Speaker 2: a thing. And he's been very vocal about his own

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Speaker 2: struggles with mental health and he's very modern in all

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Speaker 2: those senses, isn't he?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 2: And an interesting choice then for the NROL because these

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Speaker 2: big Footy finals they have to appeal to everyone, but

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Speaker 2: of course they also have to find an artist, hopefully

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Speaker 2: who's touring at the time, so it needs to be

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Speaker 2: someone who's in the culture. It can go badly wrong,

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Speaker 2: can't It.

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Speaker 1: Sure can domestically.

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Speaker 3: We saw that in twenty eleven when the AFL booked

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Speaker 3: Meatloaf to perform at the Grand Final.

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Speaker 1: It was a face plant.

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Speaker 3: It was terrible, even the way that that concert looks

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Speaker 3: so even the band with their Marshall stacks and backing vocalists.

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Speaker 1: They're sort of quite awkwardly.

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Speaker 3: Squished into what looks like a seating area at the stadium.

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Speaker 3: But I think where they went wrong there was that

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Speaker 3: how is meat Life going to appeal to a wider

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Speaker 3: audience beyond whatever audience the organizers imagined was already their

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Speaker 3: for meat Loaf within the AFL community.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to be an incredible performer, I think,

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Speaker 2: to crossover in a live performance like that, I've seen

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Speaker 2: Shirley Bassi do that. I saw her performing at the

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Speaker 2: Royal Command performance in London one Christmas time, and she

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Speaker 2: was just an example of how an old school performer

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Speaker 2: can just knock your socks off. I can't even remember

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Speaker 2: what she sang, but her stage presence was so incredible.

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Speaker 2: And that's who Tina Turner is, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: I was waiting for you to bring Tina Turner up.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think Tina Turner is the best

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Speaker 3: example of one of the big sporting codes getting it right.

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Speaker 3: And I think this is what we miss with people

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Speaker 3: like Teddy Swims. You know, I think he's a fantastic singer,

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Speaker 3: but I just don't see how his music is sort

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Speaker 3: of emblematic of the game itself, and I think that

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Speaker 3: the best examples of pregame entertainment, like Tina Turner, managed

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Speaker 3: to be incredible performances that's somehow connected to the culture

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Speaker 3: of football at the time. Tina Turner, I think that

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Speaker 3: she reflected what was great about rugby league in the nineties.

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Speaker 3: You know, she was an incredible entertainer, She was gritty,

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Speaker 3: she was really sort of a passionate performer. All of

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Speaker 3: those qualities plus her song The Best, created this credible

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Speaker 3: synergy with the NRL which went beyond an entertaining pregame show.

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Speaker 3: Her singing The Best and then the NRL pairing The

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Speaker 3: Best with footage of Al Flanger and Andrew Edningshausen and

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Speaker 3: Paul Syrin and created a cultural moment, like a very

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Speaker 3: lasting cultural moment. I think it helped the NRL find

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Speaker 3: a larger female audience at the time. Tina Turner's involvement

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Speaker 3: in the nineties is sort of the gold standard.

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Speaker 1: Well the big games even bigger.

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Speaker 2: It was sort of the dawn of the NRL discovering

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Speaker 2: that it could be sexy, wasn't it really? I remember

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Speaker 2: vividly the ad campaign where she was running along the

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Speaker 2: beach with et and various other guys, and she managed

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Speaker 2: to somehow as a forty plus woman maybe she was fifty,

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Speaker 2: run along the bench twenty two year old guys and

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Speaker 2: it all looks really natural.

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Speaker 3: Yes, for her to find this home and the NRL

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Speaker 3: in Australia in the nineties is not something that I

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Speaker 3: think people could have necessarily seen coming. But it worked,

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Speaker 3: and I think if that's the gold standard, it doesn't

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Speaker 3: feel like the formula that helped create that incredible moment

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Speaker 3: is being applied to the big pregame entertainment decisions these days.

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Speaker 3: Like Teddy Swims, I think it was a decision partly

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Speaker 3: made of convenience. He was going to be touring Australia

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Speaker 3: in New Zealand at the time of the Grand Final. Anyway,

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Speaker 3: I think it was a decision underpinned by available data

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Speaker 3: indicating that yes, he had look look at this guy.

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Speaker 3: He's got forty three million fans on Spotify, he's got hits,

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Speaker 3: the kid love him, and he's a controversy free safe bet.

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Speaker 3: Now my issue with that is I can see how

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Speaker 3: all of those factors combined felt like the right decision

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Speaker 3: in a book when made in a boardroom, but culturally

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Speaker 3: to be lazy and do I imagine Lose control being

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Speaker 3: synonymous with players like Jerome Hughes, Orryese Walsh for years

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Speaker 3: to come.

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Speaker 1: I just can't see it happening.

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Speaker 3: So in that way, it's like, you know, this isn't

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Speaker 3: going to be a teena turner in the nineties moment,

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Speaker 3: I struggle to see the overlap between Teddy Swims's music

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Speaker 3: and NURL In twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the NRL got its fingers badly burnt

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Speaker 2: with the experiment in making their players sexy, because that

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Speaker 2: made their proclivity towards bad behavior a story, a completely

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Speaker 2: justifiable story in the past few years alone. And I

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Speaker 2: say this as a devotee of rugby league and grew

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Speaker 2: up with the camera raiders have disappointed me this year,

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Speaker 2: But this is a code where they've had players picking

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Speaker 2: up schoolgirls at school visits. They've had people putting their

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Speaker 2: penises into beh glasses. They've had allegations of gang rape,

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Speaker 2: They've had people on trial for sexual assault. It's so

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Speaker 2: bad that they've had to institute for what to do

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Speaker 2: when someone is accused of a crime. They have a

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Speaker 2: no fault stand down, which means we don't penalize you

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Speaker 2: until you've actually been convicted. This is not a problem

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Speaker 2: they're dealing with in netball, right, But they did make

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Speaker 2: them very sexy for a while there, and they are

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Speaker 2: kinda sexy guys. You know, they're in their early twenties,

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Speaker 2: they're really rich. I think now the NRL cannot have

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Speaker 2: an ad campaign with them running down the beach with

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Speaker 2: their shirts off because it just sends all the wrong signals.

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Speaker 2: The NRL wants the image to be that these guys

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Speaker 2: are all happily married and home with their young children.

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Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Do you think that Teddy Swims will play any role

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Speaker 3: instead of underpinning the narrative that the NRL are trying

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Speaker 3: to spin with that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean he's very wholesome, he's LGBTQUI friendly, and

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Speaker 2: he demonstrates how much Australia has changed since twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 2: because that's when the NRL booked Maclamore for the Grand Final,

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Speaker 2: Right that was the grade. I thought that that was

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Speaker 2: because like a dry my uncle was and I kept

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Speaker 2: my rong set. I told my mom's trans rushing.

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Speaker 1: Now my fix is like pan you love girl? Since

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Speaker 1: before it pre k.

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Speaker 2: And it was a massive controversy. You were probably living

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Speaker 2: in la at the times you might have been oblivious

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Speaker 2: to this, but you know, we were on the path

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Speaker 2: towards a vote of some kind on marriage equality, which

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Speaker 2: was very controversial of course, and Maclamore's big song at

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Speaker 2: the time was same love.

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Speaker 5: Well, this a little blake, you know maclan Moore or

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Speaker 5: whatever his name is, as coming over here, well might

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Speaker 5: go on, we don't want you, right, The people that

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Speaker 5: will be there at this day don't want you.

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Speaker 2: People like Bob Catter and the Federal Coalition made it

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Speaker 2: a big deal that the NRL was going woke and

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Speaker 2: then it was endorsing same sex marriage.

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Speaker 4: If they take the most sacred day of the year

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Speaker 4: outside of Christmas book and use it to promote this

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Speaker 4: sexual proclivities, that is an insult and a defease to

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Speaker 4: every single follower of rugby league in this country.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it was a depressing time in Australian history,

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Speaker 2: which I think shows that that part of the culture

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Speaker 2: War we have actually moved on from that. Nobody is

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Speaker 2: saying that it's bad that Teddy Swim supports equal rights

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Speaker 2: for gain and lesbian people.

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Speaker 1: Yes, this angle to the story.

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Speaker 3: I think is quite interesting because if you compare NRL

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Speaker 3: to AFL, AFL has a reputation for being more progressive.

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Speaker 1: The AFL has had a pride.

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Speaker 3: Round since twenty sixteen, something that the NRL, I believe,

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Speaker 3: didn't even attempt until twenty twenty one, and that immediately

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Speaker 3: was a bust because of the Manly jersey saga at

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Speaker 3: the time and a blanket unwillingness from players to where

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Speaker 3: any sort of rebranded uniforms that had rainbow flags on them.

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Speaker 6: Seven Manly Seagles players will sit out Thursday nights clash

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Speaker 6: with the Roosters over the club's decision to wear a

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Speaker 6: special inclusive jersey. Players including Josh Aloyer, Jason sab and

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Speaker 6: Christian Tuipalatteau are expected to miss the match citing religious

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Speaker 6: and cultural reasons.

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Speaker 2: And that's the issue for the NROL. They have a

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Speaker 2: huge number of deeply Christian players who come from very

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Speaker 2: conservative backgrounds, largely in the Pacific Islands. A Pride round

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Speaker 2: for them is feels like it's a long way away.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it does.

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Speaker 3: In response to that, NRL chairperson Peter Velandi's was seen

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Speaker 3: by some to strike a compromise when the league opted

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Speaker 3: for a respect round as opposed to a Pride Round,

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Speaker 3: but that was also seen as a significant backward step

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Speaker 3: by other fans of the game. So this year it's

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Speaker 3: interesting because you've sort of got Snoop Dogg, who's been

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Speaker 3: embroiled in some lgbt uiplus controversy in the lead up

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Speaker 3: to the AFL Grand Final, and then you've got Teddy

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Speaker 3: Swims playing the NRL pregrame Grand Final, And in some respects,

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Speaker 3: I feel like the NRL booking Teddy Swims was a

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Speaker 3: sort of a direct rebuke to the AFL's decision to

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Speaker 3: book Snoop Dogg for their pregame Grand Final concert.

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Speaker 2: Snoop Dogg is fifty three years old. He is one

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Speaker 2: of the most famous artists in the world and has

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Speaker 2: been for decades. But I think this is kind of

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Speaker 2: related to the NRL's issue with cultural diversity. Really, I

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Speaker 2: think there might be many people in Snoop Dogg's community

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Speaker 2: who share his views about homosexuality. He famously said, and

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Speaker 2: we've all been reminded in the past couple of weeks

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Speaker 2: that when he went to see the movie light Year,

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Speaker 2: which is the prequel to the Toy Story movies, he

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Speaker 2: was shocked that there was a lesbian love story in

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Speaker 2: the movie. He was appalled. He said he was embarrassed

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Speaker 2: because he was with his grandchild at the screening and

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Speaker 2: had to suddenly explain how this lesbian couple had a child.

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Speaker 2: Those would not be uncommon views among fifty three year

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Speaker 2: old African American men in some parts of America. I

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Speaker 2: would suggest, Yeah, that's true.

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Speaker 3: And I mean he backpeddled after that appearance on the

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Speaker 3: Its Giving podcast where he made those statements, and he said,

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Speaker 3: I have gay friends. My gay friends have come out

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Speaker 3: and they've supported me. They knew that I wasn't doing

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Speaker 3: anything to sort of marginalize their community. For him, you know,

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Speaker 3: he was sort of echoing what has probably become quite

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Speaker 3: a common conservative viewpoint on this, which is at what

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Speaker 3: age is it suitable for there to be same sex

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Speaker 3: relationships on screen? And I guess his argument was when

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Speaker 3: he was there with his six year old grandson, that's

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Speaker 3: too young.

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Speaker 2: This is the thing about Australia. I think, you know,

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Speaker 2: we've got what Donald Trump might call the elite, who

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Speaker 2: have very progressive views all about equality of sexuality and

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Speaker 2: sexual preference and even gender. But it's often communities that

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Speaker 2: we might call diverse, like, for example, Pacific Islanders living

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Speaker 2: in Western Sydney or Indians living in the suburbs of

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Speaker 2: Melbourne or Brisbane who aren't quite there yet. You know,

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Speaker 2: the strongest votes against marriage equality in Australia were in

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Speaker 2: electorates with the highest number of first generation migrants. So

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Speaker 2: Australia is on this multicultural path. We're also on a

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Speaker 2: path towards tolerance and acceptance, but not every community is

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Speaker 2: moving at the same speed.

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Speaker 3: You consider of sympathize, then I guess with the big

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Speaker 3: sporting codes out there when it comes to their efforts

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Speaker 3: of sort of bringing everybody along or getting all of

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Speaker 3: their fans on the same page, when it comes to

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Speaker 3: what they are aiming to achieve in terms of inclusion

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Speaker 3: across all aspects of society.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because these are participation sports fundamentally. Yes, the large

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Speaker 2: portions of their revenue come from of course broadcast deals

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Speaker 2: and sponsorships, but they also need during merchant they need

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Speaker 2: to be selling the merch in the suburbs, and they

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Speaker 2: need junior players who are paying their registration fee every

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Speaker 2: season to play, and that means families have to be

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Speaker 2: good with the code. Yes, there's all sorts of issues

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Speaker 2: that they then have to manage, like concussion, the behavior

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Speaker 2: of players, and choices like who entertains at the Grand Final.

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Speaker 3: Right, I would argue that booking music for these pregame

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Speaker 3: Grand Final concerts is actually an incredible opportunity for these

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Speaker 3: codes to put their money where their mouth is in

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Speaker 3: terms of how they want their sport to be represented.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's where the AFL got it wrong

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Speaker 3: with Snoop Dogg, especially when you consider the amount of

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Speaker 3: money he was paid. I mean, I don't know if

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Speaker 3: this is true, but Green Senator Sarah Hanson Young blasted

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Speaker 3: the AFL saying, surely the two million dollars that they

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Speaker 3: spent bringing Snoop Dogg out would have been better spent

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Speaker 3: on a local act. And that's another important aspect of

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Speaker 3: this story. I think I think booking Snoop Dogg Teddy

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Speaker 3: Swim's booking Meat Loaf reinforces this idea that imported entertainment

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Speaker 3: has higher value than domestic talent.

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Speaker 2: Coming up. Should Australian artist be getting these incredible opportunities instead.

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Speaker 3: Here we have these big, high profile spots going to

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Speaker 3: international acts. The interesting thing about this is if you

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Speaker 3: go overseas. If you go to America, they're reserving their

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Speaker 3: high profile spots for bands like Tami and Parlor. I mean,

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Speaker 3: Tam and Parlor headlined Coachella in twenty nineteen, for God's sake.

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Speaker 3: So if it was me making the call, I would

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Speaker 3: love to go we should play this game, because I

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Speaker 3: want to hear your choices too. But I think Tami

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Speaker 3: and Parlor would have been a great call. You're the

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Speaker 3: YINDI could have been really cool. Treaty is a song

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Speaker 3: that has been kept alive in nightclubs now for years,

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Speaker 3: still feels really relevant. I think it was in the

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Speaker 3: top ten of Triple J's Hottest one hundred this year.

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Speaker 3: I can imagine that being performed at the AFL ground Final.

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Speaker 3: That could have really sort of shone a light in

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Speaker 3: the indigenous talent and indigenous players within the league. And

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Speaker 3: then my third one, possibly controversial, would be I think

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Speaker 3: you could get like Sames Morrison's a big band.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, this is where your degree in jazz

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Speaker 2: music comes to the core.

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Speaker 3: But I mean, I just think about twenty guys out

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Speaker 3: there in tuxedos swinging away in the middle of the field.

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Speaker 1: I think it would be.

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Speaker 2: People would be throwing their hot dogs at the well.

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Speaker 1: It would either class to join up or it would

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Speaker 1: cause a riot. But yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Would choose the kid Lroy.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's a great call.

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Speaker 2: You couldn't get him for two million, though, I reckon

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Speaker 2: he took him more like ten. She's very mainstream. But

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Speaker 2: I think mister Higgins can entertain a crowd and has

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Speaker 2: a great voice. And I think the third person who

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Speaker 2: I think is Australia's Teddy Swims but just needs to

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Speaker 2: cross over is Bougera. Oh yeah, I think he's incredible.

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Speaker 2: It's complicated and he deserves that kind of platform. That's

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Speaker 2: the other thing. This is a platform that could launch him,

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Speaker 2: could be the difference for his career.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a really big point.

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Speaker 3: That's why I would advocate for these codes to give

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Speaker 3: Australian bands the spotlight at these sort of high profile events.

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Speaker 1: Up until this year, there was a four.

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Speaker 3: Event cap at concerts that could be hosted across Alliance

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Speaker 3: Stadium and the SEG per year four. So rightfully, Chrismans

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Speaker 3: has come along. He's lifted that band and he said no,

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Speaker 3: we're going to host twenty concerts a year now. Between

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Speaker 3: those two venues. He also instituted a rule called Michael's

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Speaker 3: Rule that mandated that every international act that performed one

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Speaker 3: of these concerts needed to book a local act.

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Speaker 1: As their support act.

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Speaker 3: So that's created some really great sort of opportunities for

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Speaker 3: local artists. But I sort of wonder how much is

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Speaker 3: that really doing for the local music community. You know,

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Speaker 3: I think you could argue it's probably impacting the local

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Speaker 3: economy more effectively than it is benefiting the local music community.

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Speaker 1: But still it's better than nothing.

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Speaker 2: It is. But one of the issues for the is

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Speaker 2: in the music scene is the same issue that meant

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Speaker 2: that there were only four concerts, noise, urban gentrification. In

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Speaker 2: places like Surrey Hills, which used to have probably twelve

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Speaker 2: pubs where you could hear a band every night of

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Speaker 2: the week, now there are none, yes, because noise complaints

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Speaker 2: have shut them all down. If artists don't have the

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Speaker 2: opportunity to play in a pub every Friday night, how

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Speaker 2: do they get good enough to be on stage with

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Speaker 2: Taylor Swift at earlier stadium.

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Speaker 3: It's exactly right, It's exactly right. I mean, it's like,

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Speaker 3: what would the Beatles be without their years in Hamburg?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, We talk about funding the arts a lot too,

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Speaker 2: which seems to mean giving grants to kind of opera companies,

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Speaker 2: the ballerinas. I don't know why we don't just change

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Speaker 2: the rules in urban settings. If you've moved to Carlton

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Speaker 2: or in a Brisbane or inner Sydney, you don't get

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Speaker 2: to shut down live music. You know, maybe it can

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Speaker 2: stop at eleven pm, but it seems outrageous that residence

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Speaker 2: groups have now got the power of killed off music.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. Growing up in Sydney for me,

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Speaker 1: Sydney was a music city. Music was such a.

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Speaker 3: Huge part of my childhood and I have a vivid

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Speaker 3: recollection of walking around Sydney and they're just being music

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Speaker 3: around and it is.

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Speaker 1: A tragedy to me that that has disappeared.

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Speaker 3: It's a tragedy to me that a lot of these

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Speaker 3: venues that I grew up playing at have closed their doors.

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Speaker 3: And it really instills a sense of concern for me

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Speaker 3: when I think about the next generation coming up that

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Speaker 3: might be musically inclined or have certain dreams that might

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Speaker 3: be hamstrung as a result of all of these venues

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Speaker 3: being closed.

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Speaker 2: Jess has written about this in the Weekend Australian. You

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Speaker 2: can read it right now at the Australian dot com

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Speaker 2: dot a U slash review and of course we'll be

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Speaker 2: covering the NRL Grand Final. Their Life