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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with John Fariso,

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Speaker 1: former veteran MYPD cop. If you listen to part one,

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Speaker 1: we got a very detailed description of John's experiences when

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Speaker 1: he was on the ground, not far aware the planes

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Speaker 1: crashed into the Twin Towers on September eleventh. I've got

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Speaker 1: to say, John, and I was speaking to you off

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Speaker 1: camera off Mike that just hearing the story from someone

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Speaker 1: that was there, it really it brings it home. You

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Speaker 1: read about it, but unless you're hearing it from someone

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Speaker 1: that was actually actually there, you don't fully appreciate the

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Speaker 1: magnitude of the chaos that went on that day. So

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Speaker 1: thank you for sharing that sharing that story. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think it's important that the story is not forgotten.

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Speaker 1: It was horrendous. It changed the world that day, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's something that's embedded in everyone's psyche, but certainly for

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Speaker 1: a native of New York like you, you must carry it

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Speaker 1: with you every day.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's why I did it. I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: people hear a different story than it's been told, and

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Speaker 2: definitely not the Hollywood story. And I wanted the human

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Speaker 2: side to it, and I put it free online because

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Speaker 2: that's I would just want people to not forget. I

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Speaker 2: guess if you have ever a chance to tell anybody, he

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Speaker 2: basically just doesn't want people to forget the story because

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Speaker 2: they were Like I've said before, there were a lot

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Speaker 2: of people that didn't go home that day and they

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Speaker 2: never got a chance to tell the story.

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Speaker 1: I'm telling now part two, you're going to have to

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Speaker 1: feed my fascination of what it's like being a cop

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Speaker 1: in New York because I've been fascinated by it. I

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Speaker 1: love policing. If you're a career cop, you're always curious

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Speaker 1: what's going on. You can go to different jurisdictions, different countries,

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Speaker 1: and there is a commonality that we all share in policing.

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Speaker 1: We can talk shorthand we know the world. But there

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Speaker 1: was something about New York that policing just seemed to

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Speaker 1: be policing on steroids. It was good, the bad, and

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Speaker 1: the ugly and everything in between. So I just want

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Speaker 1: to I want to read out something that you've written

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Speaker 1: about policing in that other book. You've created telling stories,

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Speaker 1: just stories about what occurs in policing. But this is

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Speaker 1: how you've described policing in New York. So if we

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Speaker 1: just start the conversation with that, these separate tasks come

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Speaker 1: to you at random times, So going to work is

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Speaker 1: like a roll of the dice. One moment, you're driving

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Speaker 1: with your partner talking about nonsense, and five minutes later

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Speaker 1: you're coming face to face with dangerous people who just

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Speaker 1: committed a criminal act. The way that these tasks become

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Speaker 1: overwhelming and mentally draining, if you allow that to happen,

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Speaker 1: that's describing policing. The joy I found in policing was

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Speaker 1: you never knew what your day was going to bring.

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Speaker 1: You could turn up, you could be some of the conversations.

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Speaker 1: I think we should record some of the conversations between

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Speaker 1: partners driving around in police cars because they go in

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Speaker 1: some wild, strange places. But you can be doing that,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's to take the pressure off because

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Speaker 1: you know you're going to hear a bit on the

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Speaker 1: radio and the next thing you're going to be in

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Speaker 1: some chaotic, chaotic situation. New York policing, my perception of

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Speaker 1: it is it's dangerous. There's guns around, and there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of crime. Do you want to talk us through

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Speaker 1: some of the dangerous times you've been in policing, because

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Speaker 1: we've all had it. If you're a street crop long enough,

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Speaker 1: you've gone in the situations where you weren't sure how

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Speaker 1: it was going to play out. Do you want to

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Speaker 1: talk us through a couple of situations you experienced as

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Speaker 1: a New York cop?

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Speaker 2: Sure there is danger there, and you're told that as

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Speaker 2: soon as you get in the police academy, and they

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Speaker 2: would show us videos of the horrible videos of cops

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Speaker 2: who got not just New York City cops, just cops

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Speaker 2: throughout the country that got into very bad situations, and

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Speaker 2: they would show it to you and they'd say, this

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Speaker 2: is the profession you're taking. You need to be careful,

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Speaker 2: which when you go to work, you need to be alert,

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Speaker 2: you need to be in shape, you need to be ready.

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Speaker 2: And I remember that we had an academy instructor and

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Speaker 2: they would tell we used to call them war stories,

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Speaker 2: and we wanted to hear the war stories. But I

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Speaker 2: like the war stories because if it happened to them,

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Speaker 2: it would happen to us. And they told us a

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Speaker 2: story about how you need to be ready in the car.

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Speaker 2: Don't you sit there with your head down and you know,

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Speaker 2: not paying attention. So I remember that police academy story.

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Speaker 2: And then I was had about five years on and

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Speaker 2: we were driving around and my partner was talking about

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Speaker 2: nonsense that had absolutely nothing to do with police work.

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Speaker 2: And I wrote about this in my book It's called

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Speaker 2: at the Window. And he was talking and we were

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Speaker 2: driving and we had to pick up We used to

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Speaker 2: have to pick up the prisoners meals because the prisoners

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Speaker 2: would hang out the precinct. When this is New York City,

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Speaker 2: you know, the courthouse is busy, like, don't send your

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Speaker 2: prisoners here, keep them in the priests. So sometimes they

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Speaker 2: would stay there hours, and you know, if they went

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Speaker 2: into a meal, you'd have to feed them. So I

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Speaker 2: had to go pick up a prisoner's meal because he

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Speaker 2: missed he missed the scene the judge and we had

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Speaker 2: to feed him, obviously. So we picked up the prison's

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Speaker 2: meal and my partner got out of the car and

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Speaker 2: I got complacent at that moment, and I picked up

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Speaker 2: the newspaper. And it was before cell phones had picked

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Speaker 2: up the newspaper, and I'm reading the newspaper to his day,

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Speaker 2: I don't know what it was about. And I heard

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Speaker 2: a thump at the window and I know now it

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Speaker 2: was an elbow, and I looked out and there was

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Speaker 2: a guy standing at the window with blood coming down

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Speaker 2: his head and he had his hands duct taped like

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Speaker 2: this and he was hitting the window at his elbow.

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Speaker 2: So I, you know, I woke up. Man. The adrenaline

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Speaker 2: just snapped to me and I was like, what just happened.

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Speaker 2: So I started to open the door and the guy

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Speaker 2: falls down and lays on the floor. So I'm thinking

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Speaker 2: somebody just shot him in the head, and I'm like, well,

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Speaker 2: what just happened. I'm looking around, and somebody comes running

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Speaker 2: across the street goes, they were just at the store.

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Speaker 2: They just ran out. So I'm like, who just ran out?

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Speaker 2: What just happened? And my partner's not there. I got

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Speaker 2: the police radio, but I still gotta find out. I

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Speaker 2: can't just start yelling at the radio. I gotta find

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Speaker 2: out what's going on. So the guy sits up as

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Speaker 2: he's duct tape. He said that he was in the store,

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Speaker 2: which was exactly in front of where I parked. I

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Speaker 2: parked on the street, I parked, my partner walked across street.

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Speaker 2: He said when I pulled up, he was being robbed

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Speaker 2: inside and they were hitt him in the head with

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Speaker 2: a shotgun because he wouldn't give up this the money

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Speaker 2: or a safe. I don't I never got that full

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Speaker 2: part of the story. And the other man that was

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Speaker 2: there said, when I pulled up, there was a woman

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Speaker 2: in front, saw me and my partner get out, saw me.

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Speaker 2: She immediately ran inside. I would assume she told them

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Speaker 2: The cops just pulled up. As my head was in

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Speaker 2: the newspaper. Those guys ran out with shotguns, passed my car,

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Speaker 2: or at least to the left of it. He ran out.

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Speaker 2: And so if those guys wanted to take me out

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Speaker 2: in the car shoot it out with me and my partner,

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Speaker 2: they could have took my partner out without of snow,

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Speaker 2: and they could have took me out. That's how quickly

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Speaker 2: and how dangerous things were. Where I was just picking

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Speaker 2: up a prison blowney sandwich and I drove into a

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Speaker 2: hold up where they had a guy tied up and

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Speaker 2: beating them with a shotgun right in front of me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, that that is policing, isn't it. That? You know,

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Speaker 1: you can let you let your guard down, but you've

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Speaker 1: always got to be aware of what you might walk into,

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Speaker 1: A walk around the corner straight into Do you get

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Speaker 1: conditioned to that? I'm asking you, like you see, I

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Speaker 1: know from my point of view, the impact that has.

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Speaker 1: How did you deal with situations like that? Did you

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Speaker 1: just go okay, well, I've learned a lesson, Now I've

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Speaker 1: learned something more. I pay attention.

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Speaker 2: Well, I immediately thought back to what the academy instructor

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Speaker 2: told me, because he described almost the same exact situation

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Speaker 2: that CUP officers were killed. In a situation like that

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Speaker 2: where they drove up to a scene and they weren't

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Speaker 2: paying attention, and the guys were they already there, and

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Speaker 2: they thought they were there for another reason. You know,

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Speaker 2: when I pulled up, those guys in that store probably

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Speaker 2: assumed I was pulling up for them when it wasn't.

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Speaker 2: The woman ran inside and told them. I found that

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Speaker 2: all out later, So I definitely learned a lesson from that.

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying you can't be pay attention hundred cent

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Speaker 2: of the time, but you really have to keep your

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Speaker 2: eyes focused. But I was just glad I was going

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Speaker 2: home that day, and you know, the bad guys got away.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if they ever caught them. I never

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Speaker 2: found out. You know, detectives came and handled it, and it

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Speaker 2: didn't matter to me. What maddened to me was because

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Speaker 2: my partner walked out with his boloney sandwich in his

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Speaker 2: hands for the prisoner, and I had explained Tom what happened.

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Speaker 2: He saw the guy laying bleeding on the floor, and

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Speaker 2: you know, we were just glad that we were going

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Speaker 2: home that day, and we went back to the precinct

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Speaker 2: and we went back of patrol duties. And you know,

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Speaker 2: if I told that story to the guys they worked with,

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Speaker 2: they'd be like wow, but it wouldn't make a difference

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Speaker 2: because they were like, you're okay, right, A worry about

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Speaker 2: he mad? The report there would be it wouldn't be

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Speaker 2: that big of a deal.

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Speaker 1: We tend to move on. We had an incident and

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Speaker 1: talking about complacent in the building, I worked in the

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Speaker 1: police headquarters where a person was waiting for someone to

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Speaker 1: come out of the building and whoever came out, they

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Speaker 1: were going to shoot, and sadly it was a public

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Speaker 1: servant that came out out of the building and was shot.

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Speaker 1: Curtis Chang. It was a horrible situation one Friday afternoon.

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Speaker 1: I remember it, remember it clearly. But from that it's

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Speaker 1: sort of police headquarters, it's major crime where all the

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Speaker 1: detectives work, and it sort of wake everyone up to

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Speaker 1: the fact that yeah, you'd go out to buy lunch

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Speaker 1: and you wouldn't take your gun, or you do things

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Speaker 1: and just drop your guard down a little bit, and

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Speaker 1: it takes some horrific situation like that just to check

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Speaker 1: yourself and go, Okay, well, if I'm on the street,

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Speaker 1: I've got my gun, and yeah, you get complacent and

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Speaker 1: Complaincency creates dangerous, dangerous situations. Policing isn't all bad, it's

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Speaker 1: not all scary. I think every working cop has some

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Speaker 1: funny stories or funny experiences or things that you've seen

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Speaker 1: and you just think, I can't be seeing this. This

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Speaker 1: is just ridiculous. And they don't have to be horrific.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes they're just bizarre situations. I'm sure working the streets

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Speaker 1: in New York as long as you did, you've seen

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Speaker 1: some strange and unbelievable things. Can you recall anyones that

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Speaker 1: you want to share with us.

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Speaker 2: Yes, there's a lot of these stories that are funny,

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Speaker 2: but couldn't make it to the book because it happened

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Speaker 2: so quickly. I guess in New York we're so conditioned.

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Speaker 2: It's just things happen very fast and you just move on.

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Speaker 2: And you know, you would just go out on patrol

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Speaker 2: and people would just run up to you yelling and

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Speaker 2: screaming about nonsense. Sometimes and sometimes it was legit. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: it wasn't. Like I could tell you how many times

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Speaker 2: like you would have a major crime happened in the

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Speaker 2: middle of the street and there'd be the windows of

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Speaker 2: a call would be shot out, and you know, nobody

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Speaker 2: got shots. Everybody ran from the scene. So you pull

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Speaker 2: up and you're like, Okay, everybody's gone, let's do a

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Speaker 2: crime scene. And then people come running into the crime

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Speaker 2: scene screaming and you're like, get out of my crime scene.

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Speaker 2: And the woman's like, don't give my car a ticket.

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Speaker 2: So I'm like, this is your car. She goes, no,

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Speaker 2: I'm across the street and I'm looking to like, you

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Speaker 2: really think I'm gonna walk away from crime scene to

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Speaker 2: give you a ticket. I'm like, get out of here, lady.

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Speaker 2: So there's just situations like that that it's like, you know,

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Speaker 2: there are people that believe everything revolves around them and

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Speaker 2: you're there for them. You're not. I'm there for something

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Speaker 2: way more important than you're a double parks car. I

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Speaker 2: mean here for what just happened in the middle of

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Speaker 2: the street.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a real big presence of place uiform police

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Speaker 1: in New York, and you describe that, you know, you're

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Speaker 1: a show for sometimes or you're giving directions. Everyone comes

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Speaker 1: to policing. I remember my early days in uniform. I

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Speaker 1: always get confused when you dropped in the city and

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Speaker 1: area you don't know, but everyone's coming up and asking

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Speaker 1: you for directions and like, you know everything because you

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Speaker 1: were in the uniform. I would imagine that plays out

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Speaker 1: in New York a fair bit too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a joke Wheze to say, because New

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Speaker 2: York is a very diverse area. You have like a

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Speaker 2: lot of wealth and a lot of people that are

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Speaker 2: not very wealthy, living sometimes right next to each other.

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Speaker 2: And a lot of tourists come to New York, you know,

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Speaker 2: so there's no accent or language you've never not heard.

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Speaker 2: And I would be just you know, in Midtam Manhattan

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Speaker 2: and you'd see these people wandering into a really bad area,

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Speaker 2: sometimes not in mid toalm Manhattan, other areas of Brooklyn

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Speaker 2: and stuff, and they'd hit you with this accent and

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Speaker 2: you're like, what are you doing here? Why are you here?

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Speaker 2: And they're like, we're lost, we're looking for the Statute

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Speaker 2: of Liberty. I'm like, you're not even close to this.

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Speaker 2: So my partner would say, they're walking sixty one. The

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Speaker 2: reason we call a walking sixty one was st one

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Speaker 2: was a complaint report and usually for robbery and burglary.

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Speaker 2: So we're like, they're walking sixty one. If they keep

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Speaker 2: walking around, they're going to get a sixty one. So

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Speaker 2: the joke always was, why don't we just hand them

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Speaker 2: the report and have them fill it out. So it

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Speaker 2: got to the point when I had this nice old

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Speaker 2: couple from the Midwest and they were looking for the

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Speaker 2: I remember, they were looking for the Statue of Liberty

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Speaker 2: and their van was out. I mean, they were going

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Speaker 2: to get rolled. It was a matter of time. So

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Speaker 2: me and my partner were like, I told the guy,

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Speaker 2: you got to get out of here. Just follow me.

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Speaker 2: So just we caravaned them out of the bad part

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Speaker 2: of town and we put them in the highway and

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Speaker 2: we just pointed, listen, get on to this exit and

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Speaker 2: you're fine, just drive away. So, like, you know, you

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Speaker 2: have the cop humor. You have to help people, but

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Speaker 2: it gets the time when it's comical and you have

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Speaker 2: to make a decision for something that's not even police work.

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Speaker 2: You have to just be a good person and get

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Speaker 2: the person that should not be there out of there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and look, I think it's important that you've got

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Speaker 1: to check yourself as a cop, that you don't lose

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Speaker 1: your humanity. And yeah, showing that little bit of humanity

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Speaker 1: that keeps you sane. But it's also the best way

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Speaker 1: to do policing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. You know, there was a lot of

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Speaker 2: times we would be drinking coffee and we would think

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Speaker 2: it's a quiet nate and like we get the call

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Speaker 2: of an address and it's like next dought to where

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Speaker 2: we're standing the next building. You're like, is this a joke?

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Speaker 2: Like did he know we're here? We're having drinking coffee? Well,

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Speaker 2: like we think we're in the same building, and you

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Speaker 2: just step outside, make a rate, go upstairs. Now, like,

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Speaker 2: how'd you get this off fast? Well, like when we

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Speaker 2: were downstairs, they're like, oh, and then you're in the

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Speaker 2: middle of a major crime again and you were just

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Speaker 2: having your coffee and you're thinking, Okay, I'm going to

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Speaker 2: handle this situation. Everybody's lived, it's good, but you're not

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Speaker 2: gonna get back to have my coffee. That was my

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Speaker 2: break and that's what police workers about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. Now, New York had a reputation of high crime,

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Speaker 1: and Mayor Giuliani bought in that zero tolerance like we're

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Speaker 1: going to basically arrest our way out of this situation,

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Speaker 1: and so the people were getting getting locked up for

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Speaker 1: all sorts of crime. What's your take on that? In

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Speaker 1: the New York Cop did it work or did it backfire.

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Speaker 2: It's an interesting because that's still the ramifications that out

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Speaker 2: is still going now and I could do it. You know,

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Speaker 2: there were a lot of people talking about it, but

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Speaker 2: I could tell you from experiences because when I was

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Speaker 2: in the police academy, he got elected as the mayor

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Speaker 2: and he was the no nonsense, I'm gonna stop crime mayor.

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Speaker 2: And I was a New York City resident and I

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Speaker 2: remember it as a kid. My parents like, you don't

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Speaker 2: go that section of town. You don't go to ask

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Speaker 2: his section town. You don't go over there when it's

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Speaker 2: dark out. You come home. And they were always telling

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Speaker 2: us what way to go and what not to do

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Speaker 2: and what you know. So I was like, there's no

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Speaker 2: way this guy's going to clean up crime. And I

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Speaker 2: was in the priest and I was a rookie cop,

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Speaker 2: and they were like, we're going to start arresting everybody

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Speaker 2: who commits minor crimes. And I was like, well, why

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Speaker 2: would we do that. They're like, well, if a guy's

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Speaker 2: urinating in the street, check if he has a warrant,

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Speaker 2: because that guy probably has been committing crimes for years

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Speaker 2: and he's never paying, he's never going to court. They

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Speaker 2: were like, if he's urinating the street, if you don't

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Speaker 2: see if he has a warran, if he doesn't give

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Speaker 2: him a summons. So it started to make sense. They

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Speaker 2: started with the turnstile jumpers, and if anyone's been in

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Speaker 2: a New York City subway, you know it's not hard

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Speaker 2: to jump the turnstyle, And so Juliani said, you jump turnstyle,

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Speaker 2: you're getting arrested, and they start the transit cops started

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Speaker 2: with that. And once they started with the turn style jumpers,

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Speaker 2: like you know, they were catching guys with guns, they

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Speaker 2: were catching guys with serious warrants. So I'm talking like

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Speaker 2: murders and other states that came to New York. And

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Speaker 2: you know, if you're a murder in another state, you're

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Speaker 2: not that interested in paying your subway fare. But when

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Speaker 2: they started arresting people for that, that's when they the

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Speaker 2: criminals were like going underground almost they were, they were

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Speaker 2: going behind. They would the weed deal is started to go,

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Speaker 2: you know, on the beeper, through the payphone and through

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Speaker 2: the they went inside. The prostitution went inside. So you

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Speaker 2: had some old school guys who were like, you cannot

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Speaker 2: arrest somebody for domestic violence. I'm like, well, they're telling

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Speaker 2: me to do my crime. If if I go to

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Speaker 2: a domestic violence situation and a woman has bruises, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm walking this guy up. They're like, you can't lest

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Speaker 2: a drunk driver. I'm like, what do you mean a

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Speaker 2: can He just hit six parked cars and he's passed

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Speaker 2: down his calm taking. I'm locking this guy up. So

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Speaker 2: it cleared stuff up pretty quick. Crime started to go

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Speaker 2: down very quickly. They there's also people call it the

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Speaker 2: broken windows theory, which definitely has that. And the c

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Speaker 2: started to realize that they we were not just going

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Speaker 2: to go to the scene. Like I would run into

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Speaker 2: guys who'd just get out of prison, and they couldn't

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Speaker 2: believe that we were harassing them for the things we

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Speaker 2: did because they'd be like, Yo, what the fuck man

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Speaker 2: I did prison time? No one bothered me for this shit. Well,

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Speaker 2: like things are different now. They're like, oh, I heard

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Speaker 2: about that, Like guys with shoplift and were like, you

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Speaker 2: come with us, But all I did was steel. This

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Speaker 2: I'm like doesn't matter. So we were locking guys for shoplifting.

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Speaker 2: And then they started to realize that man if I

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Speaker 2: got a fellonly warant I shouldn't be out shoplifting. So

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Speaker 2: it definitely changed the city. It brought the tourists back.

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Speaker 2: Another place was Times Square that went from the crap

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Speaker 2: zone to people bringing their little kids there to watch

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Speaker 2: Disney movies. That changed. That was I never expected that

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Speaker 2: to happen.

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Speaker 1: So I was interested in it because when I was

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Speaker 1: studying and on different things about policing, and the broken

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Speaker 1: window effect is quite interesting and I like the concept

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Speaker 1: of that was if you've got a street that's in

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Speaker 1: that ghost street, so it were, Yeah, every city has them.

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Speaker 1: There's graffiti, there's a band in, car, stolen smash windows.

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Speaker 1: You go in and tidy that place up, get rid

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Speaker 1: of the graffiti, clear the banding cars, put lighting in there.

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Speaker 1: I think that combination is not a bad way to

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Speaker 1: approach approach crime. I know in New York that's where

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Speaker 1: it sort of originated from. Did you see the benefits

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Speaker 1: of that type of approach to reducing crime.

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Speaker 2: I definitely saw the benefits because I also lived in

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Speaker 2: the city, so I noticed it. I noticed that nobody.

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Speaker 1: Was breaking it's felt safe going home.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that and it was a lot of the petty crime,

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Speaker 2: like you know, when I was younger, you know I

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Speaker 2: had this, It's pretty funny. I had my car. I

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Speaker 2: was concerned with people stealing my radio because you know,

401
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Speaker 2: they steal your readers one thing, but you got to

402
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Speaker 2: get your window busted. They ripped the freaking thing out.

403
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Speaker 2: You know, these guys are like a chop shop guys.

404
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Speaker 2: How they steal your reader. So I used to have

405
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Speaker 2: this plastic thing, Like in college, I had this phony

406
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Speaker 2: plastic radio that was like a ten dollars am redo

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Speaker 2: that I would put the plastic keys over my actual radio. Okay,

408
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Speaker 2: I was like ry, And you know, people would put

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Speaker 2: signs in their car there's nothing of value, please don't

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Speaker 2: break the window. So you know, once they stopped, they

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Speaker 2: started actually arresting these people, those petty criminals. They really

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Speaker 2: I don't know where they went, but they weren't doing much.

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Speaker 2: And I wrote about those stories in my book because

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Speaker 2: I eventually went to a unit called the conditions unit.

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Speaker 2: And what was interesting was we would take priests and

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Speaker 2: conditions because you know, it's like the movies, the phones

417
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Speaker 2: always ringing in the priest and somebody's complaining about something.

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Speaker 2: So somebody did statistics and like, okay, we're getting nine

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Speaker 2: complaints about graffiti. So they would narrow it down and

420
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Speaker 2: they would say, graffiti is happening at this building at

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Speaker 2: this time, and they would be in the conditions unit.

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Speaker 2: They were like, okay, go plain clothes, go out and

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Speaker 2: get graffiti. So we'd go out and we wouldn't know

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Speaker 2: who to look for, but we knew the location, and

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Speaker 2: we also knew that the city was going to lock

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Speaker 2: this person up. Whether they did prison time or not,

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Speaker 2: it didn't matter. It was important that they realized if

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Speaker 2: you were going to get arrested for doing this and

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Speaker 2: comed out. We started locking the graffiti people ups. And

430
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:50,879
Speaker 2: then the graffiti people weren't even really doing it in

431
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:52,320
Speaker 2: the open. They were either doing it late at night

432
00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:53,400
Speaker 2: or well you couldn't find them.

433
00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,679
Speaker 1: So you think, looking reflecting on it, you think it

434
00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:58,160
Speaker 1: worked that that approach.

435
00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:00,639
Speaker 2: Yes, it definitely worked, because right now they're going to

436
00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:02,080
Speaker 2: doing the opposite and it's showing.

437
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:06,000
Speaker 1: Okay, so the opposite is and we're hearing it over here,

438
00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,560
Speaker 1: like you're not going to police these minor offenses. Say yeah,

439
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:16,800
Speaker 1: it's interesting another thing about New York policing. And trust me,

440
00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,520
Speaker 1: I'm not sitting here going oh, look, it's New York

441
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:23,760
Speaker 1: cops of the corrupt. Every jurisdiction in this country, every

442
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:27,159
Speaker 1: state police, federal police have all been through corruption inquiries.

443
00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,000
Speaker 1: I was working major crime when a big Royal commission

444
00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,920
Speaker 1: came through in New South Wales police at about corruption.

445
00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:38,080
Speaker 1: So New York is not unique to corruption in police,

446
00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,160
Speaker 1: but because it is New York, a lot of attention

447
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,879
Speaker 1: is played out. What's your take on the perception of

448
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,520
Speaker 1: the past corruption in New York police and where you're

449
00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:49,280
Speaker 1: at these days.

450
00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,879
Speaker 2: Past corruption before I was a police officer, from the

451
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,760
Speaker 2: stories I heard, was pretty more rampant and more in

452
00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:58,919
Speaker 2: your face, where it was more like there's nothing to

453
00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:02,280
Speaker 2: be done about it, and it was common. And then

454
00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:04,080
Speaker 2: there was some movies made about it, and there was

455
00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,040
Speaker 2: some real commissions that knocked out I wouldn't say knocked

456
00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,080
Speaker 2: out the coruption because it never went away and I

457
00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:13,080
Speaker 2: don't believe it ever will, but the old school corruption

458
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:14,840
Speaker 2: went out the window. And then when I was the

459
00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:18,439
Speaker 2: police academy, they drilled it into us about corruption. If

460
00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:20,600
Speaker 2: there's any police officers who are rookies listening to this,

461
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,560
Speaker 2: you need to know that police departments take corruption very seriously.

462
00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:26,880
Speaker 2: If you they will put a lot of resources into

463
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,040
Speaker 2: finding out if that is correct what you're doing. So

464
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:30,600
Speaker 2: if there's an allegation, they're going to look at it,

465
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:32,600
Speaker 2: then it's not some burglary that nobody cares about. They're

466
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:34,360
Speaker 2: gonna spend a lot of money in time to look

467
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:36,639
Speaker 2: at if you did what they're saying you didn't. If

468
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,040
Speaker 2: you didn't, you'll get cleared. But people need to realize

469
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,359
Speaker 2: that corruption is dell will and it's a feather in

470
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,080
Speaker 2: the cap. I don't know about in Australia, in the

471
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,439
Speaker 2: United States, or especially in cities like New York, it

472
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,240
Speaker 2: is a feather in the cap for the prosecutor to

473
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,760
Speaker 2: get a corrupt cop, which means that look what we did,

474
00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:52,959
Speaker 2: look at our integrity. We caught this guy. And sometimes

475
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,480
Speaker 2: the corruption is minor, but it's there and it is

476
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:57,120
Speaker 2: a feather in the cap. They will put the resources

477
00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:57,800
Speaker 2: into getting them.

478
00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:02,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. Look, if you've been in the police long enough,

479
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,560
Speaker 1: you've seen things or I'm not sure now like now,

480
00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:11,440
Speaker 1: I think all police forces have seen I can only

481
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,840
Speaker 1: speak for this country. You need to be squeaky clean

482
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,399
Speaker 1: because you're going to get scrutinice because policing has changed people.

483
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,000
Speaker 1: It's don't worry. Nothing to see here, the cops are here.

484
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:25,040
Speaker 1: That mentality's gone. Now you get scrutinized. But corruption was

485
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:26,840
Speaker 1: a part of part of the police, and then you had

486
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,560
Speaker 1: to navigate your way through it. I worked with people.

487
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,160
Speaker 1: One of my first partners when I went to detectives

488
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,720
Speaker 1: was locked up for corruption. I was shielded from that corruption,

489
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,000
Speaker 1: but that was only because I made made it very

490
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,760
Speaker 1: clear I'm not interested in going down that path. But

491
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,400
Speaker 1: there is a difficult way to navigate through your policing

492
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,080
Speaker 1: career if there are corrupt police and they bring shame

493
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:50,879
Speaker 1: on us all if they are corrupt.

494
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:52,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've wrote a story about that in my book

495
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,719
Speaker 2: where I had a navigate around it as a supervisor.

496
00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:58,000
Speaker 2: It's called Welcome to the Jungle. It was mainor corruption,

497
00:21:58,080 --> 00:21:59,560
Speaker 2: but it was there, and it had to do with

498
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,320
Speaker 2: street vendors who were taking cops under their wing and

499
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,480
Speaker 2: befriending them. And you know, as a cop or just

500
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:08,320
Speaker 2: as a person in general, but as a cop, really

501
00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:10,280
Speaker 2: we get a sixth sense and you just know when

502
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:14,000
Speaker 2: someone is not legit. So I always felt as a rookie,

503
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:15,919
Speaker 2: I noticed this too. If somebody who I do not

504
00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:19,280
Speaker 2: know I'm talking to civilian, somebody on the street. If

505
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,639
Speaker 2: they're trying to befriend me, I'm skeptical. Why is this

506
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 2: person trying to talk to me? Why are they interested

507
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,680
Speaker 2: in pronouncing my name correctly?

508
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:27,480
Speaker 1: Oh?

509
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 2: I saw you yesterday with your partner, and you got

510
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,119
Speaker 2: to put the brakes on. You say yeah, and you

511
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 2: got to tell them I'm good, thanks man, Naha, you

512
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 2: got my name wrong, don't worry about it. And then

513
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,080
Speaker 2: they realize, Okay, this guy we can't approach, and those

514
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,000
Speaker 2: same guys will search until they find a cop that

515
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,399
Speaker 2: they can get to, and I think I have to

516
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:45,920
Speaker 2: tell them, like, I'm not that guy.

517
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll approach mat That's good advice, John, because you've

518
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 1: got to be a wary of that. Those people that

519
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,639
Speaker 1: are overly friendly to you going for a drink or whatever,

520
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,320
Speaker 1: or someone just turns up. You're drinking with a group

521
00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,640
Speaker 1: of detectives and someone turns up, I let me buy

522
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:01,840
Speaker 1: you a some drinks and stuff like that. You've got

523
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 1: to be that little bit a little bit wary. Let's

524
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 1: talk about missing persons, because I know that's a passion

525
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:09,920
Speaker 1: the views. How did you get into that area and

526
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,639
Speaker 1: tell us about what your role was in the Missing

527
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 1: Person's Unit.

528
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 2: Sure, well, I said in the very beginning of the

529
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 2: first episode. There was two incidents when I was a kid,

530
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,440
Speaker 2: so once again I was still interested in police work

531
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,200
Speaker 2: at a young age. And it was nineteen seventy nine

532
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:31,120
Speaker 2: and there was a kid had went to school, never

533
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 2: made it. He was only I was nine, he was seven.

534
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 2: Happened in here in Manhattan, Loneman that and his name

535
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 2: was Eton Pets And it was a very famous case

536
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 2: in the United States at the time. And this was

537
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:42,200
Speaker 2: New York City when New York City was dangerous. But

538
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 2: he basically didn't come home from school, and it was

539
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:47,640
Speaker 2: on the news every night, and I was very interested

540
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 2: in police related stuff on the news, so I would

541
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,959
Speaker 2: watch it. But unfortunately, I was nine years old and

542
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,639
Speaker 2: there's a kid a little younger than me that got abducted,

543
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:57,920
Speaker 2: and they were basically saying this kid was abducted, he

544
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 2: just never came home. So I would watch this night

545
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 2: if the night on television. And my parents were funny.

546
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,119
Speaker 2: They never said, you know, maybe you shouldn't be watching

547
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 2: these crime shows late at night, you're only nine years old,

548
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,160
Speaker 2: But you know, they they didn't say that. So I'd

549
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 2: watch it and then something strange that'd happened. I was

550
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 2: afraid of being lost. So because the news started reporting this,

551
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,679
Speaker 2: as you know, they did the shock value. Even in

552
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,679
Speaker 2: the seventies. Oh, there was a cab driver who saw

553
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:25,879
Speaker 2: a young blonde head boy with two men and they

554
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 2: were flying out of the country. So the news did this,

555
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,440
Speaker 2: spun this story where this kid was in a pedophile ring,

556
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, my gosh, there's creepy people

557
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 2: in my neighborhood. I was in Queens and it's Manhattan, Manhattan,

558
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 2: but I knew this could happen in my neighborhood. So,

559
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 2: like I said before, I was getting afraid to leave

560
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 2: the house and I would ask my parents if I

561
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:43,880
Speaker 2: got lost, would you find me. They're like, yeah, we'd

562
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 2: find you. Who would I talk to if I got lost?

563
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 2: So I remembered locking the doors. Even though it was

564
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 2: a safe neighborhood. I remembered locking the doors, and I

565
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 2: remembered still watching it on television. So they never the

566
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 2: news kept going with the shock value, and they had

567
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,080
Speaker 2: a suspect, but it turned out to be nothing. So

568
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 2: that stayed with me, that missing person story. So as

569
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:05,920
Speaker 2: I got a little older, you know, I forgot about

570
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 2: that story. I forgot about the kid. I remember his name,

571
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 2: Metson Paids. And then when I went to the NYPD,

572
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 2: I was a big cop. And then when I went

573
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 2: to the missing person squad, I said, wow, that sounds interesting.

574
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 2: You know. I wanted to be a detective, like I

575
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 2: said earlier, So I got a specialty unit because I

576
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 2: had already. I already did my time investigating police corruption.

577
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 2: So they said where do you want to go? I said,

578
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:28,199
Speaker 2: I was off of the missing person squad and I

579
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, I could do it. They said, you'll

580
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 2: focused on one type of case. I says no. They said,

581
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,440
Speaker 2: can you focus the detectives doing missing person cases? I

582
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,400
Speaker 2: said sure, I could do it. So I stepped into

583
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 2: the office and my supervisor says, okay, we have a

584
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 2: lot of cold cases here. You know. He told us

585
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 2: everything we have to do, and I saw the Eton

586
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 2: Pais photo and I said, wow, that's this case when

587
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 2: I was a kid. That made me think and I

588
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:52,439
Speaker 2: was like, my gosh, he's like So he told me

589
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 2: everything we're going to have to do with that case.

590
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,360
Speaker 2: And I met the detective who had it. I wasn't

591
00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,919
Speaker 2: a detective. Supervisor and then I'm going to fast forward here.

592
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 2: I'm going to talk about the missing person cases. But

593
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:03,919
Speaker 2: I ended up working on it on that case, and

594
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 2: I ended up working on the same case that I

595
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 2: had a fear of as a kid. And at one

596
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,360
Speaker 2: point they were digging a basement in the city and

597
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 2: I me, I was kept back from the dig and

598
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 2: I was a little not happy about that. I was like,

599
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 2: I want to dig. I want to be part of

600
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,160
Speaker 2: this investigation. So ME and one detective were kept back,

601
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,640
Speaker 2: and as we were sitting in the office, the phone

602
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 2: rang and civilian came running out. She says, he knows

603
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:27,879
Speaker 2: who the kid is. He knows who killed the kid.

604
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 2: So I thought I had another case of which I

605
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 2: wrote about in my book. But I have another case

606
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 2: of a kid that went missing. So the detective wrote

607
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,439
Speaker 2: down the name's on Pats in the paper and that

608
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 2: was how they solved the case through that phone call

609
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 2: when I was sitting in the office. So the same

610
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 2: case there's a kid that scared me, I ended up

611
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 2: working on. I was in the office when that call

612
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:46,199
Speaker 2: came in that solved it.

613
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 1: Wow, that's uh yeah, chilling, chilling and interesting that you

614
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 1: carry that through. I had some cases that I knew

615
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 1: that were occurred, high profile cases before I was in

616
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: the cops and got to work on them. And it's

617
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 1: something about policing. You think, how did I get to

618
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 1: this point? Like it's good, it's great. You know something

619
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 1: that you've been curious about, and here you find the

620
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 1: out exactly what's gone on other missing person's cases that

621
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 1: you worked on. Because in America, I would imagine there's

622
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 1: a lot of missing persons cases. Majority of them turn

623
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,439
Speaker 1: out to we find them, but there's a lot that

624
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: just disappear in Some are a little bit more sinister

625
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 1: than just wandering off.

626
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a few that are sinister. Now it's funny

627
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 2: as I see it on the movies a lot there's

628
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:32,879
Speaker 2: like that twenty four hour rule that doesn't exist. You

629
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,120
Speaker 2: can't call miss persons for twenty four hours.

630
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 1: That doesn't that's just anyone, John, Can you yield that

631
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 1: from the rooftop? Because I am so I get people

632
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,439
Speaker 1: fane me I'm out of the cops, and when I

633
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: was in the cops, and they go, well, but we

634
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 1: can't report it because they've got to be missing for

635
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,120
Speaker 1: twenty four hours. And whatever I say, if any cop

636
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: has told you that they're lazy, and there you can

637
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 1: report it, like, just walk in there if you've got concerns. Sorry,

638
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 1: it's just it's a beer in my bonnet. About that.

639
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,919
Speaker 1: I get so sick of hearing people go, oh, but

640
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,199
Speaker 1: we can't report the person missing because it hasn't been

641
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 1: twenty four hours.

642
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 2: I always wanted to wear that urban legend began. I

643
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:09,439
Speaker 2: don't know if it's an old movie. It had to

644
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 2: begin somewhere, and there's no truth behind it, and people

645
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 2: still believe it. And there are people who wait twenty

646
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 2: four hours to report the husband's missing.

647
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 1: I blame you God. It must have been one of

648
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: those New York cop shows that came.

649
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 2: Out, definitely. So when I went to Missing Persons, I

650
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 2: was surprised with the volume of cases because New York's

651
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 2: a big city. You know, you get tourists, you get locals,

652
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 2: you get everything. And so we I was the supervisor

653
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 2: of eight detectives and there was other supervisors with the detectives.

654
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 2: So we'd get about seven thousand cases a year. So

655
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 2: now it's interesting, is seven thousand is at a very

656
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 2: low number. The reason I'm saying a very low number

657
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 2: is because it would go to the local priests and

658
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 2: first and you know, people would call number one and say, okay,

659
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 2: my daughter ran away, and then detective would go there

660
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 2: and then maybe they talked to the neighbor and they

661
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 2: would say, you know what, she's staying at the park

662
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 2: and they find her. So technically it's a report, it's

663
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 2: a runaway, it's a missing person, but it's located quickly.

664
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 2: So by the time the cases we got, we got

665
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 2: the ones that they didn't return in seven days, so

666
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 2: the priests couldn't find them, detectives couldn't find them. They

667
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 2: would send it to OSCUS. We were the experts, and

668
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 2: ninety percent of them we found within or I say found,

669
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 2: I mean there's unfortunately a lot of a lot of

670
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 2: homice not there are some homicides, but a lot of

671
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 2: suicides and we'd find almost all of them I would say,

672
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 2: ninety to ninety five percent within the first week. And

673
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 2: that's as it located. It was that five percent that

674
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 2: out of those seven thousand cases that you're like, Okay,

675
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 2: something is going on here, there's something that's not right.

676
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 2: And you know another thing that the media has wrong.

677
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 2: People don't just fake their disappearance is that's very very rare.

678
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 2: That's almost impossible to do now to faked disappearance. And

679
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 2: if you fake it disappearance, you're probably coming up a

680
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 2: crime to begin with. So they're looking for you for

681
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 2: the crime. It's not really you being missing. They're looking

682
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 2: at you what you did for fake it. Nobody fakes

683
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 2: their disappearance for no reason. So we had to look

684
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 2: at those those cases. But I got very good at

685
00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 2: quickly knowing, like, you know, you can't judge it, you

686
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 2: know exactly, but you're like, this sounds like a suicide.

687
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 2: This sounds like a runaway. There's a lot of human

688
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 2: trafficking that's happening too, and human trafficking is not really

689
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 2: someone from another country. A lot of times it's a

690
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 2: young girl who meets the wrong person and he starts

691
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 2: offering her money and she has to turn tricks for him,

692
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 2: and then she goes missing, which is the pimp takes her.

693
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 2: She's making money, he takes it to the cheap hotel,

694
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 2: and the mother's reporting and missing. And that's a good

695
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 2: example of the five percent that you know, you have

696
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 2: to find this girl before something really bad happens to her,

697
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 2: and quite often we would. But that's an example of

698
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 2: one of the cases that we had to spend a

699
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 2: lot of time on with these human trafficking cases. To

700
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 2: get these kids, it was usually a female fifteen years old.

701
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 2: We'd have to find them and get them.

702
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: Back and that must give a lot of job satisfaction too,

703
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 1: I think stepping in and bringing some comfort to the

704
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 1: families or hopefully comfort if they can break away from

705
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: what's happened to them. It's a very important role missing persons,

706
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: isn't it, because the impact that has on families. You

707
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 1: were the saying that, yeah.

708
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 2: We did see it. We didn't always hear it from

709
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 2: the family, but was quite often when you know, we

710
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 2: thought that this was an easy case. We used to

711
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 2: say easy case, which meant that, you know, you get

712
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 2: a guy, he's binging on whatever drug and okay, we're

713
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 2: gonna find him soon in he's going to be at

714
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 2: the rehab or he's going to be the local shooting gallery,

715
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 2: shooting gallery heroin. That's what we would say. So you know,

716
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 2: you don't want to tell the family that, but you

717
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 2: have to figure, okay, he's a junkie, we're gonna know,

718
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 2: we're gonna find this guy, and then you know, you'd

719
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 2: put up a flyer or two, and then one of

720
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 2: the local guys would just you know, because missing persons

721
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 2: isn't a crime, you would get some people would talk

722
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 2: to you a little quicker because they know no one's

723
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 2: going to prison, so they would say, yeah, I know him.

724
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 2: He's I ain't given you my name, but he's always

725
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 2: on the corner every night. And then you go to

726
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 2: the corner and you'd find him. And if he's an adult,

727
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 2: technically he doesn't have to go home. You'd call the family.

728
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 2: He's on this corner. He's not missing. The family would

729
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 2: be very thankful quite often that we put that effort in.

730
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 2: To me, it wasn't a big deal to find the

731
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 2: case like that, it was an easy one, but to

732
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 2: that family it was very important that that person was located.

733
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, yeah, they've come to the place for help,

734
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 1: and if he can help them in that way. In

735
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 1: your book, there was an interesting chapter about some missing persons,

736
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: but it wasn't a missing person. You actually had the

737
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 1: person but didn't know who the person was. A fifteen

738
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:08,479
Speaker 1: year old girl, I think it was. Do you want

739
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: to tell us that story? I just found an interesting

740
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: looking at it from a different perspective.

741
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the first story in the book. It's called

742
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 2: even a little incident Could go a long way, and

743
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 2: that is I would say, my favorite story. I don't

744
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 2: like to use the word favorite, but I like to

745
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 2: talk about that one because it was very different from

746
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 2: what we did. Because very rarely do you have a

747
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 2: living person who says they don't know who they are.

748
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 2: We'd get the local drunk who ends up in the

749
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 2: emergency room hitting the head. Okay, you know something, key fella,

750
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 2: he came out of a bar, he hit his head.

751
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 2: We'll find out who this guy is. So this woman

752
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 2: just walks into a shelter and says, I don't know

753
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 2: who I am. I have amnesia who am I? And

754
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 2: I was working that office that night and it was

755
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 2: just me and a few detectives, and I didn't think

756
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 2: much of it until I saw the girl's picture because

757
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 2: they sent me a picture. I said, oh no, this

758
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 2: is going to go viral. Because I saw the girl's picture.

759
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 2: There is missing persons. There are people. If you have

760
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 2: anybody that's missing, put the best picture you can of

761
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 2: them out. That's all I got to say. Don't put

762
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 2: the guy with the mohawk. Put him when he looks

763
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 2: the best, because he'll get more attention. So yeah, so

764
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 2: you know what I'm talking about with that, and that's

765
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 2: for a family. You want the best picture of the

766
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 2: person out there. So they put this picture out. I said,

767
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 2: this is going to go viral. I know it. So

768
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 2: the detective called me. He's like, listen, my supervisor is

769
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 2: putting this on the news tonight. So I said, okay,

770
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 2: now it's really going to go viral. So I told

771
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 2: the detectives, I go, when this hits the news, the

772
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 2: phones are going to light up. We used to use

773
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:28,959
Speaker 2: the term light up, which means that's going to call.

774
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 2: So we used to have a book to sign out,

775
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 2: and it was always the ongoing joke as the supervisor

776
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 2: they hide the books and no one signs out and

777
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 2: gets the heck out of there before you get told

778
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 2: they tell them what to do. So I took the book,

779
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 2: and once they took the book, they knew it. They

780
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 2: were like, we're pulling an all nighty here. I could

781
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 2: have called her reinforcements to help us, but it was

782
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 2: just me and a few detectives. And then sure enough

783
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 2: the phone call started and there was a girl that

784
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 2: looked like her in a building and we had to

785
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 2: send people to the location and it wasn't her. It

786
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 2: was just another girl that looked Tika. But we got

787
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 2: a lot of calls on that and so it wasn't her.

788
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 2: And then as time went by, the detective called me back.

789
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 2: He goes, my supervisor is putting it on a major network. Now,

790
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,720
Speaker 2: this major network in the United States goes all fifty states,

791
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 2: all over the country and probably throughout the outside of

792
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 2: the United States. I said, my gosh, every drunk amulus

793
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 2: amateur salute and Wacko's going to stop calling. They put

794
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 2: a picture up. It was like who am I, Please

795
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:21,320
Speaker 2: help me find myself. I was like, oh, my gosh.

796
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 2: And the phone call started and we could not feel

797
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 2: the phone calls fast enough. And I talked to two

798
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 2: truck drivers who said that they transported her from one

799
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:31,839
Speaker 2: state to another, and they described it pretty well. When

800
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,280
Speaker 2: a truck driver calls, you know, he's those guys are observed,

801
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 2: they see what's going on, they pick up a hitchhiker,

802
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 2: they're gonna remember it. So those two guys describe the

803
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 2: same situation in two different states. So I'm like, I

804
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 2: think this is h So then We had all these

805
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 2: amateur slutes calling, and we found out that some of

806
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 2: them just wanted to put themselves in the case and

807
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 2: talk to us like they were an investigator. And it

808
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 2: got to the point I started I knew the voices.

809
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 2: I'm like, stop calling, we know what we're doing. Then

810
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 2: the case got sad, and I say sad is because

811
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 2: I started getting phone calls from women in California because

812
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 2: they were getting phone calls that their daughters were missing

813
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 2: and they thought we had their daughter.

814
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 1: Oh they other families, Yeah.

815
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 2: The families of the legit missing started calling us, and

816
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 2: I had to do my own, you know, cold case

817
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 2: investigation through the computer, and I started to find out

818
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,800
Speaker 2: that wow, these two women are looking for their daughters

819
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 2: and they're looking at us for hope. And we had

820
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 2: somebody who claimed she didn't know who she was and.

821
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: Check it out.

822
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 2: One of the mothers called me back and said that no,

823
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 2: it's not my daughter just looks like her because we

824
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 2: compared the photos. But I felt for those women because

825
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 2: this woman with this story that she didn't know who

826
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,840
Speaker 2: she was went viral, went across the country. It was

827
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 2: twenty four hour news cycle and it kept going and

828
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 2: I was the lead investigator on it, and I pulled

829
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 2: an all nighter on that one, and you know, we

830
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 2: had all types of people getting involved in that. And

831
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 2: it turns out we found out later on who she

832
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 2: was because her father eventually called because she wasn't missing

833
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 2: in another part of the country. And then I would

834
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 2: find out later on that those two women that were

835
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 2: calling me, they their kids were victims of a serial

836
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 2: killer and they did look like her, so they had

837
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 2: the concern that we possibly had their daughter. And after

838
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,919
Speaker 2: I believe possibly after I retired, the serial killer came

839
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 2: forward from prison and said that he had murdered these women.

840
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 2: So I eventually did find out who their kids were,

841
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 2: but it was not the girl that we had with us.

842
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's missing persons. Working homicide as long as I did,

843
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 1: I saw the impact that homicide have on families, but

844
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: I also the increased impact when someone's just disappeared, where

845
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 1: the families haven't got answers and they haven't found out

846
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 1: what's happened to their loved one. It's painful and it's

847
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: an area that policing them. I'm glad we've jumped on

848
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,720
Speaker 1: the twenty four hour. 'll throw that one out the door.

849
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 1: But quite often if you've got a good missing person's

850
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 1: unit and set up in whatever police force or jurisdiction,

851
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 1: it can make a big difference because they are solvable

852
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 1: if a little bit of attentions put into them at

853
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 1: the time they were reported. And if they're not, if

854
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 1: they just sit in sitting in the draw somewhere or

855
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 1: just on the computer and no one's looking at them,

856
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 1: that's when they become problematic, when the trail has slowed down.

857
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,800
Speaker 1: What other areas of policing you spent twenty years in

858
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 1: the cops?

859
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 2: Sure is this?

860
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 1: And this is again I might have learned this from TV.

861
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,319
Speaker 1: But that's the standard career for a New York cop.

862
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 1: Twenty years and then you can retire. Is that the

863
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 1: way it plays out? Or am I misreading.

864
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 2: It right now? It's twenty five years? But when I

865
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 2: was there, you could do twenty years or retire, and

866
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 2: most people do twenty retire.

867
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 1: You've done your service, You go out, there's a pension

868
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 1: of whatever, but you've done done your service. Was that

869
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 1: because of the intensity of being the New York cop

870
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 1: twenty years? We don't have that in New South Wales police.

871
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 1: We can stay until we decide to retire, but that

872
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 1: brings problems in itself because a lot of people burn out.

873
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:55,399
Speaker 1: Do you think it was a good idea twenty years

874
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: and now probably twenty five because people are working longer.

875
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 2: I think it is a good idea because you do

876
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 2: need younger people to come in, and you know, the

877
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 2: younger people that could do more, and I say do

878
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 2: more as more physical and they could do the hours,

879
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 2: the tours. Although when I left at the height of

880
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 2: my career with the most experience I had, and I

881
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,919
Speaker 2: was at the height of my investigations, and I could

882
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 2: handle anything thrown at me. But you know, when it's time,

883
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 2: you don't want to stay past you're welcome, you don't

884
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 2: want to I started to get a little complacent again,

885
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 2: and my head wasn't in the game as much I

886
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 2: figured I did twenty years. I wanted to start seeing

887
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 2: my family again. I know you wrote about it in

888
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,439
Speaker 2: your book. It gets to a point when you know, yeah,

889
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 2: the kid's missing, he's riding a skateboard. I'm looking at

890
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:39,399
Speaker 2: parks all over the city, and but yet my kids

891
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 2: are playing soccer and I'm out looking for somebody else's kid.

892
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 2: So it gets to a point when let somebody else

893
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 2: take the rein and let somebody else come in and

894
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 2: learn the experience. And it was time for me to

895
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 2: move on to back to the civilian world, because twenty

896
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 2: years in the NYPD is a very long time, because

897
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 2: I did eight years of just straight over time where

898
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 2: I was working two jobs almost during those eight years,

899
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,439
Speaker 2: and it's in the candle at both ends at one point.

900
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 1: And it does have the impact on the family, doesn't it.

901
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,840
Speaker 1: And it's hard to walk away from when you're a

902
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: dedicated police officer. You're on the case and it's not

903
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:14,359
Speaker 1: a nine to five job. But your family. Were they

904
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 1: happy when you retired? Yeah?

905
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 2: They were. Even my kids kind of said it. They

906
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 2: were like, oh, you could be homebore, you could do this,

907
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,360
Speaker 2: you could do that. And my wife was glad, you

908
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 2: know she she basically said that she didn't watch the

909
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 2: news most of the time. And then I had to

910
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 2: tell her how many stories I shielded for her from that.

911
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 2: I decided not. She's like, when were you going to

912
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 2: tell me this? I wasn't going to. I told her,

913
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 2: why should I come home and burden you with the

914
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 2: madness that's going on at work, because you know, I

915
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 2: don't want to upset, you know, and people don't understand.

916
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 2: You know, my wife has family that a police officer,

917
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 2: but she still couldn't, not one hundred percent understand when

918
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 2: I was getting out and there was no reason to

919
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 2: cloud her mind with all that. And even my own

920
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 2: family they would ask me about work. I would tell

921
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 2: them the funny things, the funny stories, but I didn't

922
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 2: get into the nitty gritty of the real politics that

923
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 2: were going on or the real it's a shock tank.

924
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 2: It's you know, at times I used to joke around,

925
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 2: I go, sometimes you feel like you're the goldfish with

926
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 2: the piranhas and there's a glass ball. I used to

927
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 2: say that.

928
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 1: In the detective bureau, it's a pressure environment. And I

929
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: speak to a lot of cops on this show, and

930
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,839
Speaker 1: no people through my career, a lot of us say, yeah,

931
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: I can handle the pressure of the work. It was

932
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 1: the internal politics that where you're down because it is

933
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 1: a I don't know, it's a very nature of policing.

934
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 1: It it's a combative area to work, and it's funny

935
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 1: reading stuff and preparing. You talk about the supervisors and this,

936
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 1: and there's always a clash. It's a difficult area to

937
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 1: work in, isn't it.

938
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 2: It's definitely difficult. I expected it. I expected more of

939
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:44,720
Speaker 2: the difficulty to come from the people on the street.

940
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 2: I really got there thinking us first down mentality, and

941
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 2: I realized that some of the biggest obstacles were your

942
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,799
Speaker 2: co workers or your supervisors. Whether they meant it or not,

943
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 2: they were the biggest obstacles to you actually doing your

944
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 2: job the way it should be done, or going home

945
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 2: on time. There's a lot of politics in New York City,

946
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 2: because this is New York City. There's politics involved in

947
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 2: police work and it shows.

948
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, if you've read my book, you can see

949
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 1: that I agree with that in the conflict that you

950
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 1: can have in the workplace. Hi, guys, just a quick

951
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 1: interruption to let you know about a new podcast from

952
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: the team behind Eye Catch Killers. It's called The Mushroom Cook.

953
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:26,879
Speaker 1: It's about a case that made headlines around the world

954
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 1: last year, the prosecution of a Victorian woman called Aaron

955
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:33,359
Speaker 1: Patterson over a family lunch that left three people dead.

956
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 1: The podcast goes deep into what we know about those

957
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 1: alleged murders in the coming months. It will also follow

958
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 1: the twists and turns as erin who's denied any wrongdoing

959
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 1: faces trial. If you subscribe to crimex Plus, you'll get

960
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 1: access to the Mushroom Cook early and ad free. Just

961
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 1: search for the Mushroom Cook on crimex plus on Apple podcasts.

962
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 1: What are you doing with yourself now? You running an investigation?

963
00:41:58,880 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: Sure business.

964
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 2: I When I retired, I you know, I thought about

965
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,760
Speaker 2: getting away from all types of police work in general.

966
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 2: And uh, I got very bored, very fast. And I

967
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 2: realized that I went from a rollercoaster and then was

968
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 2: told to sit and that wasn't me. So I I

969
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:20,919
Speaker 2: told my wife, I got to get a part time job.

970
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 2: So she's like, yeah, yeah, get out of the house,

971
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 2: get a pot time job.

972
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 1: So she was telling me you did to get it.

973
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 1: Yeah the house, j'all I would have mentioned you a pine.

974
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I had to.

975
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 3: Uh.

976
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 2: I It's just I'm not saying I missed the police work.

977
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 2: I missed the excitement, I guess, but I was definitely

978
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 2: glad with dumb with the bureaucracy. So the first building

979
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 2: was the I mean, the first job I got was

980
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 2: actually the Empire State Building. And everybody's like, Okay, you

981
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:45,359
Speaker 2: just went to the second biggest building in the city.

982
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 2: You sure, you want to work here, So I sure.

983
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:51,439
Speaker 2: So I was working the I was managing the security there.

984
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 2: So I did that for a number of years, and

985
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 2: then what I was getting was a lot of people

986
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,239
Speaker 2: were asking me missing person questions. They were like, John,

987
00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 2: I know this guy, and I'm like, listen, I haven't

988
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 2: done missing persons in years. They were like, no, but

989
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 2: you were the missing person guy. So I found myself

990
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 2: fielding all these missing person questions and I said, wow,

991
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 2: I must have a lot of experience with this and

992
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 2: I shouldn't forget it. And I felt that if the

993
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 2: NYPD gave me that experience and I had it and

994
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 2: I lived it and I learned it, I need to

995
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 2: put that experience back out there, whether it's on a

996
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,399
Speaker 2: podcast like this, whether it's writing my book, whether it's

997
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 2: mentoring somebody or a private eye business. So I did

998
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:26,720
Speaker 2: the cop route and I did the private eye business.

999
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 2: And I didn't want to do the cheating spouses. That's

1000
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 2: like a big thing here with people are making money.

1001
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 2: I really my days of cheat, you know, watching people

1002
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:35,800
Speaker 2: in cheap hotels at two in the morning. I didn't

1003
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 2: retire anything that. So I turned those cases down. I

1004
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 2: know other people make money with it. I got some

1005
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 2: interesting cases during COVID where people were moving people to

1006
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 2: their houses and they were not who they were, and

1007
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 2: then they just disappeared on them. They tried to report

1008
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 2: a missing and the police wouldn't take it. I was like,

1009
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 2: all right, this sounds of something I could do, and

1010
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 2: it was fraud. They were definitely fraud cases. And so

1011
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:59,239
Speaker 2: I keep gravitating back to missing person cases, and like

1012
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 2: I said, I network with a lot of private investigators.

1013
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 2: So I opened up a company and I still do

1014
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 2: miss some person cases. But what happens is another thing

1015
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 2: which I didn't expect is a lot of nonprofits reach

1016
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 2: out to me. I don't know if you have nonprofits there, but.

1017
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, this sign thing I heat, yep.

1018
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 2: Oh you do. So there's a lot of you'll know,

1019
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,240
Speaker 2: cold cases are you know, it's not like Hollywood where

1020
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 2: the cold cases everybody's focusing on it. The fold case,

1021
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 2: I hate to say it. It's in the back room,

1022
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,760
Speaker 2: it's up on a shelf, it's got dust, and unless

1023
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 2: a call comes in or someone gives a quote a tip,

1024
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 2: that case is going to sit there for a very

1025
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 2: long time. So a lot of these nonprofits will help

1026
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:39,839
Speaker 2: the family, and I look at the old cases, and

1027
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 2: so they'll approach me and they'll say, listen, this is

1028
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 2: the information we have. And I look at it where

1029
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 2: I almost off from the beginning. I don't say men

1030
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 2: soft them meeting like I get out there and do

1031
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 2: the work. I say, was this done? Was? And I

1032
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 2: have a list, and I sometimes I don't even ask

1033
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 2: totally about the case. I go, okay, this person was

1034
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,439
Speaker 2: missing from here with all these steps done. And there's

1035
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:57,959
Speaker 2: a lot of times, you know, I could be honest.

1036
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 2: I'm retired now. The steps would never done for whatever reason.

1037
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 2: A steps were missed early on. I'm like, man, you

1038
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 2: almost had this solved in the very beginning. Sometimes you

1039
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:09,799
Speaker 2: can go back to those steps because there are people

1040
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 2: still alive, and you notice people will talk. I've had

1041
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 2: people on the phone from something fifty years ago and

1042
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 2: they're talking about it like it was yesterday. So there

1043
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 2: are people who will talk, and there are steps. Cold

1044
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 2: cases still, kills still can be investigated. And I tell

1045
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:28,360
Speaker 2: the family that the chances of me finding dismissing person,

1046
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 2: finding the body, or having some arrested is slim, but

1047
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 2: I can guarantee you I'll do the work on it,

1048
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 2: and that's something somebody these families have not heard in

1049
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 2: a long time. And I do the work on it,

1050
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 2: and I've had through this nonprofit, And something fulfilling for

1051
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 2: me is I've had one case reopened through the NYPD

1052
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 2: because I handed them the information that they needed and

1053
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 2: I said, listen, you guys solved this. I'm fine with it,

1054
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:54,879
Speaker 2: just you need to reopen this. And the family got

1055
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 2: on them and they got me and I got on

1056
00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 2: the investigators and I had a case reopened. And there's

1057
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 2: another case in another state that's not even New York

1058
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:04,959
Speaker 2: where I can't work on it, but they're pretty close

1059
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 2: to arresting somebody. And this is a person that got

1060
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 2: under the radar murdered somebody when as a missing person,

1061
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 2: but it was a homicide and they just need somebody

1062
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 2: to confess our talk. But they're very close to an

1063
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 2: arrest on it. And that's something that the nonprofit had

1064
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 2: me really look at.

1065
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 1: John. I fully understand that, and I've get involved in

1066
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 1: similar stuff since I've left the police, and it starts

1067
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 1: with the families reaching out to me, reaching out to me,

1068
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 1: can you have a look at this. Sometimes I have

1069
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: a look at it, whether they've got the cranial brief

1070
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 1: or the brief of events. I look at it and

1071
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:43,399
Speaker 1: I will say in my opinion and have a sort

1072
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 1: of circle of other experienced detectives and people from the

1073
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 1: lawyers and different things. We have a look at these things,

1074
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 1: and if the police haven't done their work, I'll type

1075
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 1: something up and say, well, look, these are the things

1076
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 1: I think should be done. I try not I want

1077
00:46:57,600 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 1: to work with the police. I don't want conflict. You

1078
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 1: don't want to get Hey, you guys, stuff this up.

1079
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 1: I'm saying this can be helped, but it is rewarding.

1080
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 1: I'm going from this podcast to have a look of

1081
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 1: brief of evidence of the families sent to me in

1082
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 1: a gain. It was just a matter where someone that

1083
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 1: was written off as a suicide and they've got some doubts.

1084
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 1: I don't know if it is or isn't, but I'll

1085
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 1: look through the brief and to me, I'm talking about me,

1086
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:22,319
Speaker 1: but I get the sense you feel the same way.

1087
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 1: If you can help a family with the skills that

1088
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 1: you develop from when you're in the cops. It's not

1089
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 1: a big ask, is it.

1090
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,240
Speaker 2: No, it's not a big ass because anybody who retires

1091
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 2: from laur enforcement. Even if you work on a slow

1092
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:35,320
Speaker 2: police you have a tremendous amount of experience that people

1093
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:38,359
Speaker 2: just don't have. And people are very interested in police work.

1094
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 2: It's obvious and because movies and books are written about it.

1095
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:43,440
Speaker 2: So and there are people that need your help and it.

1096
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 2: You know, it's not like the PI that goes out

1097
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 2: there and kicks indoors. But you could shed light or

1098
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 2: look at a situation from a different angle that maybe

1099
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 2: the police in nineteen seventy five didn't see. Maybe they

1100
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 2: didn't you know, didn't look at let's match. You know,

1101
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 2: it was common to not match a kese in one

1102
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 2: borrow would have come with the keys in another where

1103
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 2: they were almost the same was a mirror image of

1104
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 2: the same thing. Well, that happened five miles away. It's

1105
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 2: a different jurisdiction. That doesn't mean the serial killer knows that,

1106
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 2: you know, he's doing his work. So you have to

1107
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 2: re look at it.

1108
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,720
Speaker 1: And quite often it's not the failings of the police,

1109
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:18,480
Speaker 1: it's just a system that was you know, when I

1110
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 1: first started investigating homicides, they had cards. It wasn't a

1111
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:25,720
Speaker 1: computer system, it was cards. Yeah, So sometimes the mistakes

1112
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 1: have made and I always say that investigative opportunities were missed.

1113
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 1: But the benefit we have now is a benefit of

1114
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 1: hindsight looking back and all the DNA everything that we've

1115
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 1: got in our favor and now forensic science that helps

1116
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 1: with investigations. But would you recommend policing to if someone

1117
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:46,879
Speaker 1: came to you, a member of your family or some

1118
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 1: young person that you knew, came up to you and said,

1119
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 1: I'm thinking to join the police, so I want to

1120
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:54,359
Speaker 1: be a New York cop. What would your responsible to them?

1121
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 2: Well, if I know the person, I know the person,

1122
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 2: their personality, I would know if they would fit it better.

1123
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 2: I have a family member that's on the job right now,

1124
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 2: and I was approached with that exact question, and other

1125
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,200
Speaker 2: people approached and people even said, you're going to talk

1126
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 2: this person out of it. It says no, I said,

1127
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 2: this is what this person wants to do. If you

1128
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 2: want to be a police officer, there is a job

1129
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 2: for you there, and if you want to do it, it

1130
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 2: makes your job a lot easier. Fall from perfect, and

1131
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 2: I tell them it's not going to be an easy job.

1132
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 2: You're going to have to do a lot that you

1133
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 2: didn't expect. But if it's what you want to do,

1134
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:25,319
Speaker 2: you have to go in it, and you have to

1135
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 2: be your own person and be good at what you do.

1136
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,359
Speaker 2: So I would not talk anybody out of it. If

1137
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:32,359
Speaker 2: it is what they want to do, if their head's

1138
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 2: in the game and they want to do that job,

1139
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 2: I would tell them yes, because I made a good

1140
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:36,799
Speaker 2: life out of it. I mean, I'm sitting on this

1141
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 2: podcast for you, talking across the world, and very few

1142
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,719
Speaker 2: professions can do this. That they could. It's interesting they

1143
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:45,360
Speaker 2: could write about it like me and you did. We

1144
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,319
Speaker 2: wrote about it. So I would suggest it is if

1145
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:50,279
Speaker 2: it's you want, if it's what you want to do,

1146
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 2: and it almost as if it's was you're calling all along,

1147
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 2: like you know when you watch those movies as a kid,

1148
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 2: and said I could do that, I could sit in

1149
00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 2: that police call. And if that stays with you over

1150
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:00,200
Speaker 2: the years, and you're going to college and you going

1151
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 2: to do I went to school, I thought for education,

1152
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:03,479
Speaker 2: but I knew I was going to be a cop,

1153
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:05,720
Speaker 2: So I never once said I wished I was a teacher.

1154
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 2: I did what I was I wanted to do, which

1155
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 2: was police work. So off you have that in you.

1156
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:11,279
Speaker 2: I would tell a person to take the job.

1157
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 1: Yes, I like that. I like that advice. What do

1158
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 1: you think is the qualities of a good cop? What

1159
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 1: are the qualities you look for when you're a supervisor

1160
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 1: and you're looking for a term, or you're making up

1161
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:24,919
Speaker 1: an investigative group. What sort of qualities do you look

1162
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:27,279
Speaker 1: for in a person to be a good cop.

1163
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 2: To be a good cop, you have to really be

1164
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,799
Speaker 2: able to talk to people, talk down a situation. Look

1165
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:37,279
Speaker 2: at something like, Okay, this person's drunk. He just told

1166
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:39,719
Speaker 2: me to f myself. Okay, I'm going to step back. Okay,

1167
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 2: don't call them me the f myself, no one. You

1168
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:42,839
Speaker 2: say it in a nice way, but you tell them

1169
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 2: I'm not going to continue with this. But you also

1170
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 2: understand that, you know you can't be the tough guy,

1171
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 2: because if you're the tough guy all the time, doesn't

1172
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 2: matter how big he was, somebody's going to eventually punch

1173
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 2: in the nose. So you have to realize, who's the

1174
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 2: officer that could talk down a situation. Who's the officer

1175
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 2: that could tell the hardened criminal listen. And I've had

1176
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 2: to do this. I've looked at these guys like I

1177
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:01,839
Speaker 2: can't fake this guy. But I tell him to put

1178
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:03,279
Speaker 2: his hands behind his back and come with me. And

1179
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:05,440
Speaker 2: I would say, let's go, let's put your hands on

1180
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 2: your back, let's go. Ain' going okay, Well, I'll call

1181
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:08,719
Speaker 2: five people then and they'll then you'll have to go.

1182
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:10,759
Speaker 2: And he's like, all right, I understand. So a good

1183
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 2: cup nose to look at the situation and doesn't run

1184
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 2: into it. But when you mentioned investigator, you said something

1185
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,879
Speaker 2: very interesting. You need a different set of skill set.

1186
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:21,840
Speaker 2: I was the supervisor investigators when I noticed the best

1187
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 2: investigators were the ones who think outside the box.

1188
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd agree with that. I'd agree with that because

1189
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 1: it's anyone. Could I say this with homicide investigations, anyone

1190
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 1: can investigate certain the smoking gun type murder. It's like

1191
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 1: tracking an elephant through the snow. It's the difficult ones,

1192
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:42,279
Speaker 1: the protracted ones, the ones that people give up on.

1193
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 1: I look for the investigators that want to hang in

1194
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:49,240
Speaker 1: there and just go hard and think outside of the square,

1195
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 1: because you got to. You've got to be creative in

1196
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:53,200
Speaker 1: your thinking on what you're how are you going to

1197
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 1: go about it? That just brings us about to the

1198
00:51:57,239 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 1: end of time of our talk. Here book, what's the

1199
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 1: book called and where can we get it? For people

1200
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 1: that want to hear all the stories of a real,

1201
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 1: live New York cop. And you've listened to him now,

1202
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 1: so you know he's a real deal. Where can they

1203
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 1: get access to the book?

1204
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm the real deal. It is sixty one, so

1205
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:16,759
Speaker 3: we check that out. We only have people with a

1206
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 3: real deal on the podcast. But yeah, sorry, there's no

1207
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 3: AI here. If anyone's writing with AI, please stop. You know,

1208
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 3: I was the New York City Police officer.

1209
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:27,239
Speaker 2: I did it, and I worked different units that a

1210
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 2: lot of people never saw and never understood. And I'm

1211
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 2: writing about stuff that really people don't talk about all

1212
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:36,800
Speaker 2: in a day's work and officers accounts twenty years NYPD.

1213
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 2: You get it on Amazon Kindle. It's sixty one short stories.

1214
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:42,280
Speaker 2: They're short, from one page to seven page. It's everything

1215
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 2: from cop humor to the nitty gritty. I left out

1216
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 2: the gore, so it's just it's just funny police stories.

1217
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 2: There are a lot of investigation work, internal affairs work.

1218
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 2: There is miss in person cases and just stuff on

1219
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:58,479
Speaker 2: patrol that the truth is stranger than fiction, which means

1220
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:00,840
Speaker 2: that if you had told me, wouldn't believed it. But

1221
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 2: it happened that I wrote about it in a book.

1222
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:07,440
Speaker 1: Well, the bits that I've had available to me that

1223
00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:10,239
Speaker 1: I'm reading, they're all interesting stories. And I got to say,

1224
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 1: I can just relate so much to the police. And

1225
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:16,239
Speaker 1: I've seen that with different areas that I've worked in

1226
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 1: the police or different jurisdictions, that there's a commonality that

1227
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:22,440
Speaker 1: runs through through policing, whether it's New York or New

1228
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 1: South Wales, that you understand it. And you mentioned there,

1229
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 1: and we just finish off on the cop humor because

1230
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 1: a lot of times I feel, and we spoke about

1231
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:34,840
Speaker 1: this off camera, you feel bad talking about crime or

1232
00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:38,880
Speaker 1: you glorifying crime or whatever when people are listening to

1233
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 1: two of us talk and they might think, well, they're laughing,

1234
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:43,760
Speaker 1: that's a little bit inappropriate. But what I'm at pains

1235
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 1: to explain to people is that you need to be

1236
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 1: able to see some light in all the darkness you

1237
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:50,319
Speaker 1: see as a cop. Otherwise you're not going to last

1238
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 1: to twenty years. It's going to wear you down. You

1239
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:54,440
Speaker 1: find you've got to find something to hang on to,

1240
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 1: whether it's a little bit of humor or a little

1241
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:59,359
Speaker 1: bit of humanity to get you through the darkness. Would

1242
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 1: you agree on that.

1243
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:02,879
Speaker 2: I definitely agree. I saw it in your book too.

1244
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 2: You need you know, you're at work and you're dealing

1245
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:08,880
Speaker 2: with these situations that are thrown at you, and you

1246
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:11,840
Speaker 2: need the humor behind it. And if you go in

1247
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:14,439
Speaker 2: with a sense of humor, you're gonna be it's gonna

1248
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:15,960
Speaker 2: be a little easier. You can't be stiff as a

1249
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 2: board soldiering on. You can't do that all the time.

1250
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 2: And when I say cop humor, I don't want anybody

1251
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:22,680
Speaker 2: to think that we were making jokes in front of

1252
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:26,480
Speaker 2: family members. That never happens. These cop humor happens in

1253
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:29,880
Speaker 2: the cars driving away. It happened in the squad room,

1254
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:34,799
Speaker 2: and it was It was funny because you learn it,

1255
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:38,399
Speaker 2: you see it, and some movies have it correct, and

1256
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 2: some cops. If you have a sense of humor, and

1257
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 2: then you see a crazy situation and then you start

1258
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:44,520
Speaker 2: to joke around about it and you drive away just

1259
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:47,359
Speaker 2: shaking your head, and then sure enough you're back into

1260
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:49,520
Speaker 2: a real situation again. And not every situation the cop

1261
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 2: humor comes in. But you need the cop humor almost

1262
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:55,319
Speaker 2: like your exhaling everything you just saw and you make

1263
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:58,200
Speaker 2: light of it. And it almost shows that, Okay, here's

1264
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:00,719
Speaker 2: my thick skin. But at times you have to I

1265
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:02,400
Speaker 2: wrote a lot about that in my book, and sometimes

1266
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 2: you have to just wow, that just happens. Let's move on,

1267
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:07,320
Speaker 2: Let's go on to something else, and you'll talk about

1268
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:09,239
Speaker 2: it in a copume away.

1269
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good way of describing it. John. Well, look,

1270
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 1: thank you so much for the chat and taking this

1271
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 1: into the life of a New York cop. I think

1272
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 1: our listeners are going to find your stories and what

1273
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:25,400
Speaker 1: you've spoken about fascinating. I also, and I say this

1274
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:27,960
Speaker 1: to the cops, and yeah, thank you for the service

1275
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 1: to the community. I know what a working cop has

1276
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 1: to put in and the sacrifices you make. So thanks

1277
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:36,319
Speaker 1: for making a difference a difference over there, and all

1278
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:38,440
Speaker 1: the best with your future endeavors.

1279
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:40,040
Speaker 2: Great, thank you for having me on the show.

1280
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:40,879
Speaker 3: Was a great time.

1281
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:49,160
Speaker 1: Enjoyed it. Cheers, cheers. Well John three so didn't disappoint.

1282
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 1: He is everything I expected the New York cop to be.

1283
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:55,440
Speaker 1: But what an impressive, impressive fella and a good storyteller.

1284
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 1: And I can imagine he would have been a good cop.

1285
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 1: And I've got to say he's account been on the

1286
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 1: ground on September eleven. I've read about that it's embedded

1287
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 1: in all our memories, but hearing someone that was there

1288
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:11,880
Speaker 1: and the experiences it was quite chilling. And any stories

1289
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 1: have just been in New York cop I've always had

1290
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:16,279
Speaker 1: a fascination with New York cops, so it was great

1291
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:24,719
Speaker 1: to finally sit down and have a chat with one