WEBVTT - Life of a CIA Shadow Warrior: Ric Prado Pt.2 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.039 Detective sy aside of life the average person is never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.080 exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.320 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:48.880 Rick Brada, welcome back to I Catch Killers. 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:50.559 I'm ready for you. Thank you very much. I'm really 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:51.040 enjoying this. 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:54.680 Okay, Well, I have got so much to ask you. 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:56.960 I just want to start off for just a little 0:00:57.000 --> 0:00:59.240 bit of left field. Here. There's a quoting your book 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:02.000 by George all Will and this is a quote. We 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:05.280 sleep safely in our beds because rough mans stand ready 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:07.559 in the night to visit violence on those who would 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:11.160 do us harm. I like that quote, and I understand 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:13.160 that quote, but I just want to get your comment 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:14.600 on that quote. 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:19.200 It's one of my favorite quotes because it's it, you know, 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:23.560 typifies our culture. You know, when we have Veterans' Day, 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:27.559 most people focus on the military. I'm always always post 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:31.680 something that includes our law enforcement, our first responders besides 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:35.039 the military, because it's it's what we do, you know. 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:38.720 So it's the majority. You figure in the United States, 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:42.600 for example, two percent of the population ever serves at 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:46.360 a given time in the military. Another percent serves in 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:49.560 law enforcement. Right, that means that the rest of the 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:55.280 ninety six percent have no idea what we do and 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:59.760 what we sacrifice in order for them to have the 0:01:59.840 --> 0:02:02.400 life that we enjoy, whether it's in Australia or Brittany 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:05.240 or the United States, anywhere where they're there, where there 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:09.200 is are there are freedoms. So that that quote I 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:14.119 think crystallizes and it's easier to explain to a lehman that, 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:18.520 you know, you know, sometimes you have to cray habit 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:21.440 and let slip the dogs of war. But those dogs 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:23.239 are not going to bite you. They're going to bait 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:26.360 the person or the entity that is trying to destroy you. 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:32.040 That's one of my favorite quotes, and it's one that 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:32.880 I always love hearing. 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:37.200 Yeah, I like it, and it resonates with me as well, 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:40.840 because I think sometimes you do things that it's not 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:42.919 in your nature to do, but you do it because 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:46.000 you have to do it, and it's an ethical thing. 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:48.440 But it's not going to be pleasant, but you'll do that. 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:52.160 And quite often I think people don't understand what goes on, 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:55.119 what goes on behind the closed doors to make sure 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:56.040 the world is safe. 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:59.000 Yeah, I mean you look at like I said that 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:01.600 that ninety plus per scent of people that have never 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:04.720 been shot at, uh, have never had to shoot back, 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:08.680 had never had to fight to to neutralize an aggressor 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:10.919 and somebody who was trying to rape a woman or 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:12.799 whatever it is. So those are those are things that 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:16.800 and they don't understand the risk and everything else, and 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:22.079 mostly importantly, they don't understand the impact, the post incident 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:25.400 impact that those things have on the on the on 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:29.040 the person that has to carry them out. You know, 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:33.600 I'm like I said, I wrote Rescue in Miami, UH 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:36.000 in the seventies, for God's Sake, which was when the 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:38.640 drug wars were were rampant. 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:41.160 And uh, it would have sayn a bit then oh it. 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:43.400 Was, it was. It was brutal. And as a paramedic, 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:46.600 there were shootings every night. There were you know, robberies, 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:51.000 there were things. And it's it's funny because although, yeah, 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:54.720 there are some things in my a CIA career that 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:57.920 still give me a little bit of goosebumps, some of 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:02.160 the worst memories came from pole that I couldn't see. Uh, 0:04:02.240 --> 0:04:04.560 people that were you know, we did everything we could, 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:08.720 but they still didn't make it. And and uh, I 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:11.360 read somewhere not too long ago a phrase of the 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:13.880 guy says, yes, said people don't understand that it is 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:18.160 harder too. It is easier to forget somebody you had 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:21.840 to kill then to forget that you could not see. 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:23.960 What are your partners or what are your friends. 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:29.400 We've taken you back to Honduras for a moment when 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:31.760 you were working in the in the camps, and then 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:34.599 coming back coming back to your wife. You're living in 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:37.560 country and your wife was living in country. Was it 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:40.760 hard for you to go from yeah, you're in the jungle, 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:43.479 you're fighting in the jungle basically, and everything else that 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:45.760 you're doing. Then you come home and you walk through 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:48.840 the door and Hi, honey, I'm home. Like, how did 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:52.560 you how did you navigate between one extreme to the other. 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:55.400 That's that's an excellent question, and it's one that I 0:04:56.160 --> 0:04:59.360 eventually mastard. I mean, I was pretty rough around the 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:01.479 edges of the beginning. You come out of these camps, 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:03.760 you have to be thinking tough, you have to be 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:06.440 you maybe you got shot at that day, because you know, 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:10.440 all these camps were right in the contested areas. And 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:13.640 but you know, I had two things going for me, 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:15.960 and the biggest one was my wife is a believer. 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:19.400 She didn't know exactly what I was doing. She knew 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:20.880 I was at the camp. She knew I carried a 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:22.880 gun and a grenade and a knife and all this 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:27.400 other stuff. But she was a believer because she lived Communism, 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:30.359 so she knew that I wasn't out there drinking and 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:33.640 hurrying around. I was out there trying to win, to 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:37.440 win a battle. But you do learn to turn it off, 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:41.640 or at least to tone it down. I will tell 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:44.039 you that one of the things that I that I 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:47.120 try to mentor my my my subordinates and people that 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:49.400 come to me, is something that I could have done 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:54.200 better was to better sensitize my spouse of what I 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:58.760 really do without going into operational details. But here's the 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:02.320 here's the problem. When Johnny, whose dad works at the 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:05.480 car dealer or owns a car dealer, has a bad 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:08.520 day and comes home pissed off, it means it's sullen. 0:06:08.520 --> 0:06:12.039 Of course, when a guy like you or a guy 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:14.360 like me come home after we you know, and we've 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:19.920 had a bad day, is compromised, mission is compromised, and 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:24.600 or somebody is dead, there's a severity. There's a severity 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:29.159 to the consequences that we live within that most people 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:32.640 do not understand. 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:36.520 I found it hard sometimes if you're in operational mode 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:39.960 and you come home and you're in an environment that's relaxed, 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:42.719 whether your kids are there, your partner there, or a 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:46.640 happy environment, and when you've been well. This is how 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:49.880 I found myself. When I'm in operational mode, I make 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:52.320 a decision, Bang, this needs to be done, that needs 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:54.040 to be done. That's the way you've got to operate. 0:06:54.040 --> 0:06:56.320 You've got to operate at that speed. So you could 0:06:56.320 --> 0:06:58.240 be doing that for days on end, and then you 0:06:58.320 --> 0:07:00.520 come home and it might be a comment like do 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:03.360 you want to go out for dinner, and yeah, where 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:05.599 do you want to go? I don't care. Come we 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:09.320 get there, and it just the conversation escalates from there. 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:14.080 And that's just a silly example. But you're being in 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:16.760 an environment where it's bang bang bang, I know this, 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:18.960 done that, done this done, and then you're in this 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:21.480 relaxed environment and then you have to check yourself and 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:23.720 realize you're the one that'say out the step, not the 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:24.880 people that are. 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:29.600 That is absolutely true, and guilty is charged many many times. 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:33.160 But again with age. I mean, I've been married forty 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:36.840 two years, so I must have done something right eventually. 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:39.080 So but yeah, it's hard to turn it off. It 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:42.120 really is, and there's people that don't. There's people that 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:45.640 actually and those are the ones that unfortunately suffer the 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:49.720 consequences you know, alcohol or drug abuse or or whatever, 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:54.680 you know, just violent temperament issues. When you cannot, you 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:56.200 don't learn to turn it off, or at least to 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:57.680 turn it down. You never turn it off. 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:01.120 I always had, and that's why thirty four years in 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:04.680 the cops and I think I've come through relatively unscathed. 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:07.880 But I could switch it off. And I know people 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:10.280 that can't switch it off. I can be intense and 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:14.280 then walk through the door and yeah, there'll be a 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:18.000 debriefing type situation, but then I can just relax and 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:20.520 then okay, game on when you walk out the door again. 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:23.800 I think it's something that you're lucky, you're fortunate if 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:26.360 you can do that. Clearly, with the length of your 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:28.640 career and the type of stuff that you're doing, you 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:30.920 had the ability to cape with the pressures. 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:34.120 Yes, I think that that was part of the wiring 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:37.840 and the eventual growth that I did. But like I said, 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:43.000 having a family that really understood, you know, what I 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:45.520 was doing and the reasons I was doing these things. 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:48.679 Mix coming home a lot easier. Mix coming home a 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:49.319 lot easier. 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:53.160 Yeah, Okay, we've had you in the jungle, you've been 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:55.120 to the farm, We've polished you up. You've got all 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:57.240 the skills. You know which side the knife and fork 0:08:57.280 --> 0:09:01.440 should be on. Communicate, you've got your edge. You get 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:06.439 deployed to the Philippines, talk us through that deployment because 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:09.640 a lot happens in the Philippines that, Yeah, it can 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:11.560 be a crazy place. 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:15.240 Yeah, I mean the Philippines at the time that that 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:19.160 was my third tour in my Latin American tour, which 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:23.720 I cannot mention the country, but both were being assaulted 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:30.959 by highly trained, highly financed terrorist communist terrorists. One was Maoist, 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:34.160 the other ones where whatever. And the New People's Army 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:38.360 and the ABUSAF group was starting to take Wayne down 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:41.400 in mind now the southern part of the Philippines. So 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:46.400 the Philippines has always been a violent place. And when 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:49.520 these things were, they were literally on the streets. There 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:52.000 was a very famous colonel, Colonel Nick Roe wrote a 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:56.680 fantastic book called five Years to Freedom or something like that, 0:09:57.040 --> 0:10:00.160 because he was a pow for five years and he 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:04.520 became the military attache in Manila and he was assassinated 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:07.040 like eight months before I got there, right on the streets. 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:12.200 In other words, mp A was, you know, operating with 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:15.320 impunity in the very capital of the country. And that's 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:18.080 what we were sent there to to butchers the local 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:21.400 I work with this constabulary, I work with the Navy, 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:24.280 and I worked with the army, the Special Operations. 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:27.200 GAY so and what what role did you go in there? Like, 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:30.160 what was America's interest to have you in there? What 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:32.199 you can then count site it's. 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:34.199 No I mean it's it's very basic. I mean, the 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:38.760 you know, we're trying to, uh to buoy a democracy 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:43.080 that is you know, failing because they don't have the 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:46.520 capability or the training. Uh So we were sent there 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:52.000 to work primarily with our counterparts and train them up 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:55.040 and provide them the craft that they needed to learn. 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:59.000 The logistics as you know, you know logistics in any 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:02.160 businesses there is the main and drive being able to 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:05.920 give them the resources financial and technical that they needed. 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:07.200 That was one of the things we were doing a 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:13.199 lot of intercepts because back then communications were more vulnerable, 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:17.320 and not that they're not now, but there it was. 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:19.840 It was part of the being able to find out 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:24.679 what the terrorists were planning or doing. So there was 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:27.439 a lot of technical aspect to it also, but it 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:30.400 was our mission there was to help the government survive. 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:34.560 And eventually they did push the MPa out of the 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:35.600 city and back in. 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:38.600 The woods, and a lot of that would be done. 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:42.360 I would imagine Rick with human intelligence like getting people 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:45.600 and I think there was a quite a new book 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:49.200 that in the US you look for people's strength rather 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:53.040 than targeting their weaknesses. So when you're looking for an asset, 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:55.520 you're looking for someone that can help what you're trying 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:57.839 to achieve. Can you talk us through that and the 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:02.120 difference between target need someone for their strength rather than 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:06.240 their weaknesses. Hew, yeah, different different nations upright. 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:09.840 That's an excellent question in one of my pet peeves. 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:14.400 You know, Soviets and Chinese and some of the more 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:19.360 radical elements. They recruit our strengths, but they also recruit 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:22.880 for weaknesses. In other words, you have a drinking problem, 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:27.080 you are being unfaithful to your wife, you're doing drugs, 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:30.680 you're doing something illegal, you're stealing from your company. They 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:34.200 love having those people because now they have them, they 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:36.559 have them, they you know, they're demand. You know they 0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:41.040 have them. So that part is very problematic because that 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:44.400 person will never be loyal to you because they're only 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:47.720 there under duress. I did twenty four and a half 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:52.000 years at CIA. Not ever did I see us recruit 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:55.439 somebody for that reason. As a matter of fact, I've 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:59.640 had assets that were developing drinking problems and we would 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:03.800 find them, you know, find them help. They're gambling problems, 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:09.800 we would find them help because you know, a recruitment 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:14.520 is a process of getting the person to understand what 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:19.960 you're trying to do and make it, you know, mutually beneficial, 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:23.520 and part of that is taking care of that individual. 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:28.520 Training that individual and helping them were necessary. You know. 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:31.920 I think I recruited more people because their kids wanted 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:34.319 to go to college and that was a thing that 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:36.520 we could make happen, you know, to help in the 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:39.000 long run. But those are the things you do to 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:43.000 be able to run an asset for ten, fifteen, twenty years, 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:47.200 thirty years, and those do exist. We do have those 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:49.040 those kind of track records with that. 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:52.000 Well you break it down and the term, yeah, the 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:54.839 carrot or the stick to get what you want and 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:58.360 dangling the carrot. You made me reflect on a lot 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:02.199 of my career was spent like nice crime and informants. 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:04.960 And I think about the informants, the ones that I 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:08.360 had long term relationships with and the ones that always 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:11.520 delivered and could be trusted. Were the ones that were 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:13.920 doing it not for their own mutual benefit, but doing 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:16.120 it for the right reason. It was something that they 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:19.320 wanted to do. And yeah, so I understand the logic 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:24.280 behind doing that. How it can be hypothetical, but you 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:27.400 just tell me, you've gone into a new country, whether 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:31.320 it be the Philippines or back in South America. You're 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:35.160 perhaps there working within the embassy, have a role within 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:39.400 the embassy. What do you how do you recruit someone 0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:42.840 you just get out there and socialized, or how does 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:45.120 it work? Give us an example? 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:47.920 Absolutely, you know, so you know the data, the life 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:49.920 of a case officer. You get up in the morning, 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:52.800 you go to work, and well most people take the 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:55.520 most straight line. Well you can't. You have to be 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:57.560 watching to see if you're being watched because you may 0:14:57.560 --> 0:14:59.600 have a meeting that name and see what kind of 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:02.520 screwed you're in and you're checking in the embassy just 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:07.400 like everybody else. American embassies are kind of strange because 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:12.520 we do lie higher foreign nationals. Our secretaries and our 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:15.800 phone operators and some of the other stuff are are 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:18.920 foreign nationals. So you have to live your cover even 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:22.200 inside the embassy because obviously there will be penetrations through 0:15:22.240 --> 0:15:25.040 those so those individuals. So you know, I've been a 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:29.720 political officer, I was a science officer in the Philippines. 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:33.320 I was liaison officer, which is what afforded me access 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:34.600 to the military guys. 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:36.360 H So. 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:41.520 Yeah, it's it's it's it is a new challenge when 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:45.840 you come into a country and you have look, you 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:50.440 have to assume. Let me put it this way, foreign 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:54.440 services assume that you are a spy until you convince 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:55.160 them that you're not. 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:58.960 Okay, you're in art If you. 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:01.600 If you're an American working out of a US embassy, 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:04.680 the intel, the local intel service, will look at you 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:08.320 as a spy until if your tradecraft is good enough, 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:11.920 they eventually go, oh, this guy's just the boring whatever 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:14.280 is he in doing anything? And they put the resources 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:18.520 on somebody else. And that is very, very difficult, and 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:21.480 that is a huge process. And every time you start 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:24.040 in a new country, you start from scratch. You know, 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:27.360 you live your cover inside the embassy, outside the embassy. 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:31.479 But then you do either through existing assets, get new 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:35.760 leads through intel research. You know, they say, hey, here's 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:38.520 the guy that made this comment, and you know he 0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:40.560 may be willing to cooperate, and he works in the 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:44.560 ministry of whatever. And then we there's a process by 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:49.800 where we approach the individual under you know, false pretenses 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:52.760 for lack of a better word, usually in a social environment. 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:56.560 And once you become friends, you find out you know 0:16:56.600 --> 0:16:59.760 what I've always described it is find out what keeps 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:02.760 them up at night. Uh and that if you could 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:06.600 resolve that for them, it is that is your entry 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:08.400 point into into recruitment. 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:12.520 They've got something, You've got something they need and you 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:17.560 bring them along there. You're also deployed with North Korea 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:21.000 or not in North Korea, but working in that field. 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:24.040 What was that lot? Because that's a yeah, SAI is 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:28.919 a secretive organization, but North Korea it's very isolated. What 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:29.560 what was that lot? 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:33.200 I actually did four years total working the Korea account. 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:38.119 The first two was actually working in in Seoul and 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:41.760 the embassy UH. There, I was a senior liaison officer 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:45.800 uh so I had the US military J two was 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:49.040 my counterpart, but the heads of the different services including 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:53.199 the police, which I made some good friends there. So 0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:59.439 you know, the target is mutual. You know I was 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:03.640 working with a South Koreans. The target is mutual, which 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:09.040 is the North Koreans. The North Koreans have two natural enemies, 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:12.800 South Korea and the United States. That's it, That's all 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:15.880 they care about. That's all they care about. So we 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:19.320 obviously don't have ready access. I'm not saying that we 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:21.480 don't have programs that we do have it as successes, 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:24.680 but North Korea is a very prohibitive place to operate 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:28.480 because there is no embassy, there's no you know, you're 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:31.840 you're under surveillance twenty four to seven. You have a 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:36.840 very controlled audience. So for us, that work is overseas. 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:44.080 There's about fifty some embassies, North Korean embassies throughout the world, 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:49.119 and that's where we target those individuals for recruitment, is 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:51.520 trying to find them and they're they're tough not to crack, 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:53.760 but we've cracked them. And when you don't crack them, 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:56.120 you compromise them. And that was something that I developed 0:18:56.119 --> 0:18:59.480 an act for you say no to me, you were 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:00.640 going to get into trouble. 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:05.000 Somehow, and and again without giving away trade craft, but 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:07.520 they could get in the trouble with an account created 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:10.480 in their name or something that doesn't reflect well on them, 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:12.800 or a picture of them hanging out with someone they 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:15.080 shouldn't be hanging out. Is that the type of thing 0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:16.480 that they get compromised on. 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:20.199 Yeah, you know, it's it's it's a it's a it's 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:23.719 it's very complicated in the sense of that it depends 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:28.399 on the individual. What's going on. In the case of 0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:30.919 the North Koreans, what I was able to do, was 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:38.520 I approach these guys as a Latin American private investigator, 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:43.280 a private businessman and spoke Native Spanish. This was in 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:45.679 a Latin American country, and I went up to the 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:49.040 Korean embassy in that country, knocked on their door and say, hey, 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:51.560 my name is so and so, I'm from such and 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:54.119 such a country and I want to talk business with you. 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:58.119 That's very important because North Koreans have to earn their 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:00.960 own money to operate, and most of it they do 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:04.760 it through elicit businesses that they get into. A lot 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:07.199 of it is procurement of embargo things for the for 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:11.440 the for the regime. So my thing was, I said, look, 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:15.560 I'm a businessman. I'm in the tobacco business. You guys 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:19.119 have access to Cuba. Can you smuggle me some Cuban 0:20:19.200 --> 0:20:24.600 seeds so I can improve my tobacco crop. And I 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:26.320 reached into my sock and I had a lot of 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:28.960 hundreds like this, And when I started doing that, that 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:33.480 got their attention. And uh, when when the time came 0:20:34.280 --> 0:20:36.439 that I pitched them, they you know, they did not 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:38.479 want to work. There was a long process in between. 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:42.119 We turned them into the local authorities that these guys 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:45.120 were smuggling. They get caught smuggling something into the country 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:48.440 and they get p Indeed, they get sent out of 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:52.880 the country in disgrace. And for North Korean that's often 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:57.159 a goolag type of existence. You embarrassed the regime by 0:20:57.200 --> 0:20:59.720 getting compromised overseas. You go buy, you're gonna. 0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:03.000 Pay heavy price, so you're not going to have a 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:04.800 good not having a good time. 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:07.320 Were subsequently a couple of years later, then I took 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:09.880 over the whole career's program. That was where I made 0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:12.600 senior grade, uh, and I worked with you. I was 0:21:12.640 --> 0:21:18.439 the the CIA's nsc rep for anything to do with Korea, 0:21:18.560 --> 0:21:22.200 and that was a very very different assignment for me 0:21:22.359 --> 0:21:24.960 than all the other stuff that was more kinetic and 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:26.119 more street wise than that. 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:30.480 Yeah, how did you find like climbing that climbing the 0:21:30.880 --> 0:21:34.439 corporate ladder or say ladder, whatever you call it, How 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:37.480 did you find your career? Because were you getting pushed 0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:39.159 up and you're trying to stay at a level so 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:39.919 you could operate? 0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:46.040 Yes, and no, I never took an assignment for promotion. Never. 0:21:47.040 --> 0:21:50.639 Well, Rick, can I just say I like you for that? 0:21:50.960 --> 0:21:52.800 That says a lot about the type of person. You 0:21:52.880 --> 0:21:54.359 are well done. Yeah, it is. 0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:57.800 It is one of my badge of honors. I believe 0:21:57.800 --> 0:22:00.600 in the mission, and when you do well your mission, 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:03.400 you're going to get recognized and moved up. I could 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:06.600 not say no to that position because that made me 0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:10.400 a flank rack officer in the agency. But my heart 0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:14.560 was always in operations and that job. After that job, 0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:17.920 I took over in our counter terrorist center. I was 0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:20.640 the chief of operations for the counter terrorist Center where 0:22:20.680 --> 0:22:24.560 ninety eleven happened. So now I'm you know, at first 0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:27.560 I wasn't out on the street, but I have fingers 0:22:27.640 --> 0:22:29.840 in the pie. I'm mentoring my guys, on my gals, 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:33.080 I'm putting things together. We're doing renditions, We're doing all 0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:35.760 of this stuff. So at least you're still in the game. 0:22:37.119 --> 0:22:41.080 But to your point, about a year after ninety eleven, 0:22:41.800 --> 0:22:44.200 I went to my boss and I said, we're not 0:22:44.320 --> 0:22:47.119 doing enough on this outside of the military. You know, 0:22:47.560 --> 0:22:50.159 military theaters, you know, Afghanistan and Iraq kind of thing. 0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:53.200 At the time, it was only Afghanistan. And I came 0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:55.920 up with a program for chasing bad guys all over 0:22:56.000 --> 0:23:01.840 the world and getting patterns of life on them, getting 0:23:01.880 --> 0:23:05.440 their tradecraft, who they see, where they live. In case 0:23:05.560 --> 0:23:08.280 we needed to operate against them to disrupt them, we 0:23:08.440 --> 0:23:11.360 now had the ability to do so. So I went 0:23:11.480 --> 0:23:13.920 from you know, chief of operations, where I had about 0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:17.760 three hundred and fifty operators working for me, to having 0:23:17.800 --> 0:23:20.960 a twelve person team because I had almost as many 0:23:21.000 --> 0:23:23.480 women as I had guys to do this kind of work. 0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:27.080 And we were doing surveillance and targeting bad guys. And 0:23:27.200 --> 0:23:29.280 that's how I ended my career. The last two and 0:23:29.320 --> 0:23:31.359 a half years of my career were out on the 0:23:31.400 --> 0:23:31.920 street again. 0:23:33.080 --> 0:23:36.960 Okay, And look, I think that operational experience that you 0:23:37.080 --> 0:23:39.119 get that you've managed to stay in that area for 0:23:39.280 --> 0:23:42.040 so long, and like some people might say, well you 0:23:42.119 --> 0:23:44.640 were managing three hundred and fifty people there and you've 0:23:44.680 --> 0:23:48.400 gone down to fourteen. But I see quite often in policing, 0:23:48.440 --> 0:23:51.200 and I can only speak of law enforcement, that we 0:23:51.400 --> 0:23:54.000 lose a lot of the experience When people that rose, 0:23:54.160 --> 0:23:58.879 as you said, through operational and you rise the very 0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:01.080 thing that made them good, they take them away from 0:24:01.119 --> 0:24:03.520 it and then they're they're in charge of something with 0:24:03.640 --> 0:24:06.360 a rank, but all their operational skill has gone out 0:24:06.400 --> 0:24:08.680 the door. So the fact that you ended up back 0:24:08.760 --> 0:24:14.200 there Another question I wanted to ask, as working under 0:24:14.359 --> 0:24:20.000 the false identifications, is that hard to get your head rounded? 0:24:20.240 --> 0:24:23.640 I know with my friend the French spy, at any 0:24:23.680 --> 0:24:27.800 one time, he'd had five different identities that he could 0:24:27.840 --> 0:24:30.320 rely on at different stages, didn't have to go from 0:24:30.359 --> 0:24:33.440 one to the other, but had them there if needed 0:24:33.560 --> 0:24:36.119 in the type of work that he was doing. We 0:24:36.280 --> 0:24:40.639 had Joe Pistoni on the podcast Donnie Brasca who went 0:24:40.760 --> 0:24:45.439 undercover in with the mafia and speaking to him about 0:24:46.480 --> 0:24:50.480 a really impressive, impressive fellow. He was about always being 0:24:50.560 --> 0:24:53.200 alert and you've virtually got to live that life. Is 0:24:53.240 --> 0:24:57.159 that how you adopted the identities you became John Smith 0:24:57.240 --> 0:24:57.959 or whoever you were. 0:24:58.080 --> 0:25:02.160 You have to and we people didn't understand is like again, 0:25:02.280 --> 0:25:05.359 James Bond, what walks into country acts and he is 0:25:05.520 --> 0:25:07.879 James Bond and he goes and does all this crazy stuff. 0:25:08.320 --> 0:25:10.880 You know, we walk into country X and we're if 0:25:10.920 --> 0:25:13.400 we're already in alias. We have to live that cover, 0:25:13.560 --> 0:25:16.639 whether it's business, whatever it is that you're doing, tourism, 0:25:16.840 --> 0:25:21.359 whatever it is, you have to live that character. And 0:25:22.200 --> 0:25:25.600 but the the attention to details is what is you know, 0:25:26.080 --> 0:25:30.000 precarious because I don't have to know the answer to 0:25:30.119 --> 0:25:34.520 a question. All I need is your reaction to that question. 0:25:35.119 --> 0:25:36.760 If I ask you what kind of color? 0:25:36.920 --> 0:25:37.639 What what? What? What? 0:25:37.800 --> 0:25:39.840 What school did you go to in in the United 0:25:39.840 --> 0:25:43.159 States or where Holland or whatever the hell you and 0:25:43.240 --> 0:25:48.080 you sit there, well, I yeah, I want to You're done. 0:25:49.000 --> 0:25:51.240 So that's the time. I mean, what is the national 0:25:51.280 --> 0:25:54.080 anthem of of your of your of your country. It 0:25:54.240 --> 0:25:56.800 is just getting a piece of paper that says you're 0:25:56.880 --> 0:26:00.840 Joe McGillicutty with a photo of you, and you go 0:26:00.960 --> 0:26:03.119 out there and you go through that kind of security, 0:26:03.200 --> 0:26:05.280 especially when you work in denied areas, which we do, 0:26:06.040 --> 0:26:06.760 and swead. 0:26:06.520 --> 0:26:10.520 The details counter terrorism the work when you got into there, 0:26:10.600 --> 0:26:15.280 and that was mid nineties and when you started working 0:26:15.440 --> 0:26:16.280 the canter terrorists. 0:26:16.359 --> 0:26:19.160 By my first counter terrorism assignment, although I was still 0:26:19.200 --> 0:26:23.080 a paramilitary officer, was in nineteen eighty eight when I 0:26:23.160 --> 0:26:26.800 went to that South American country and I was resta 0:26:26.800 --> 0:26:29.919 wrong for CIA internally, you know, the outside folks did 0:26:30.000 --> 0:26:32.960 not know that I was there doing that. So that 0:26:33.119 --> 0:26:35.440 was my first. The center was created by one of 0:26:35.480 --> 0:26:39.399 my mentors, Dewey Clerage, one of the most impressive men 0:26:39.440 --> 0:26:41.800 I ever met in my life. He started the counter 0:26:41.920 --> 0:26:45.200 Terrorism Center in nineteen eighty six, and in nineteen eighty eight, 0:26:45.320 --> 0:26:49.520 my first assignment for CTC was that Latin American country. 0:26:49.600 --> 0:26:52.000 From there I went to the Philippines. That was still 0:26:52.119 --> 0:26:54.480 under the same ct auspices. 0:26:54.920 --> 0:26:58.720 And when you were assigned task with Osama bin Laden, 0:26:59.359 --> 0:27:01.320 it was at the the mid nineties. 0:27:01.440 --> 0:27:04.720 Yeah, but the lod was. We started the Bladden Task 0:27:04.760 --> 0:27:08.960 Force in January of nineteen ninety six and I had 0:27:09.040 --> 0:27:12.680 just come back from from Saul, Korea. I was a 0:27:12.720 --> 0:27:15.280 branch chief. I had the PLO branch and all the 0:27:15.359 --> 0:27:18.639 Palestinian stuff. And I got called in and asked if 0:27:19.400 --> 0:27:21.560 that I by name had come up for being the 0:27:21.640 --> 0:27:25.600 deputy chief of station for a task force targeting Osama 0:27:25.640 --> 0:27:29.560 Bin Laden, And I said who, and my boss exactly. 0:27:30.880 --> 0:27:34.560 So I became the deputy chief of station for that 0:27:34.840 --> 0:27:36.840 for that for that mission, and that was in nineteen 0:27:36.920 --> 0:27:43.400 ninety six. There was an incredible operator named Billy Wall. 0:27:43.640 --> 0:27:47.280 He was a being Bret legend, and he did thirty 0:27:47.359 --> 0:27:50.200 some years in the agency on contract and I knew 0:27:50.240 --> 0:27:52.840 that he had worked cartoon because I knew him. I 0:27:52.880 --> 0:27:55.920 met him nineteen ninety in the Philippines. So that was 0:27:56.040 --> 0:27:59.479 one of my biggest you know sources when he came 0:27:59.560 --> 0:28:02.879 to what cartoon like because that's where we're Osama bit 0:28:02.960 --> 0:28:05.959 lot all the time. So we started working against bin 0:28:06.040 --> 0:28:08.720 Laden and you know, when let's say that when we 0:28:08.800 --> 0:28:11.720 started we had two files on him. Six months later 0:28:11.840 --> 0:28:14.119 we had twenty or thirty. A year later we had 0:28:14.160 --> 0:28:17.160 one hundred. I mean we were between working liaison services 0:28:17.920 --> 0:28:21.760 sources and then our technical overhead and singing and everything else, 0:28:22.080 --> 0:28:24.679 we were compiling a lot of information on bin Laden. 0:28:25.200 --> 0:28:28.520 We knew he was bad. We had over the training 0:28:28.560 --> 0:28:33.359 camps he was building, and unfortunately the administration at the 0:28:33.440 --> 0:28:36.200 time did not want to take the risk that we 0:28:36.320 --> 0:28:39.400 were proposed. He was, let's take care of this guy 0:28:39.640 --> 0:28:43.040 now because he's building something that is huge and he's 0:28:43.120 --> 0:28:47.120 got Saudi money by the tenth millions of dollars. And 0:28:47.400 --> 0:28:49.400 it was always, well, we don't have enough proof. We 0:28:49.560 --> 0:28:51.920 had people coming out and telling us this guy is 0:28:52.040 --> 0:28:56.080 training terrorists to do this. We have the communications, but 0:28:56.200 --> 0:28:58.800 they still wouldn't do it. And our thing was we 0:28:59.000 --> 0:29:01.440 either additional you know, when you capture the individual and 0:29:01.520 --> 0:29:03.760 take them out of country, or you you know, you 0:29:03.920 --> 0:29:06.120 neutralize them by you know which everyone ag sent a 0:29:06.160 --> 0:29:09.240 special team of military special team from the agency, from 0:29:09.280 --> 0:29:13.240 our Special Activities Division, and they would never buy off 0:29:13.280 --> 0:29:16.080 on that. And the reason I you know, that's so 0:29:16.200 --> 0:29:19.880 important to me is because imagine if we would have 0:29:19.960 --> 0:29:23.560 been allowed in nineteen ninety seven, nineteen ninety eight to 0:29:23.720 --> 0:29:28.440 take down Usama bin Laden, it'd be like it would 0:29:28.680 --> 0:29:32.240 it would be Hitler in nineteen thirty eight, the coal 0:29:32.680 --> 0:29:36.600 the embassy bombings in Africa, you know, the ninety eleven 0:29:36.920 --> 0:29:40.120 all those things were probably been adverted and not happened. 0:29:40.600 --> 0:29:44.000 And is that because there was a lack of appetite 0:29:44.160 --> 0:29:47.720 with the politicians, the presidents or various presidents about the 0:29:47.960 --> 0:29:52.120 SAII and you know, an assassination basically if this person 0:29:52.280 --> 0:29:54.720 is a target and there wasn't the stomach for it, 0:29:54.960 --> 0:29:56.920 is that what prevented it? Yeah? 0:29:56.920 --> 0:29:59.720 I mean, you know there is a risk adverse in 0:29:59.800 --> 0:30:04.280 every in every uh uh you know organization. We had 0:30:04.320 --> 0:30:06.239 a few in the Agency, not many, but we did 0:30:06.360 --> 0:30:08.880 have a few that were just like you said, careerists. 0:30:09.320 --> 0:30:11.400 These are the individuals own up the ladder like this, 0:30:11.600 --> 0:30:14.720 and you know, because they were always smelling where the 0:30:14.800 --> 0:30:16.000 next promotion was. 0:30:17.680 --> 0:30:22.600 So sorry, I'm laughing. I'm laughing, Rick, I'm with you. 0:30:22.760 --> 0:30:26.320 I under understand it. Every decision that's made. How will 0:30:26.360 --> 0:30:29.840 this further in my career? Yeah, that the top of 0:30:29.880 --> 0:30:30.160 the hand. 0:30:30.200 --> 0:30:33.440 Those but you know, the things with politicians also are 0:30:33.520 --> 0:30:36.560 that they are in the art of compromising, and you 0:30:36.640 --> 0:30:39.400 know they they they look at things. I always try 0:30:39.440 --> 0:30:43.120 to teach people that you cannot run special military or 0:30:43.440 --> 0:30:47.560 special intelligence operations through a political optic. You got to 0:30:47.600 --> 0:30:52.200 put politics aside. You know, it's there's a mission. President 0:30:52.240 --> 0:30:54.680 tells you you need to do this, You do whatever 0:30:54.800 --> 0:30:56.400 it takes to get it done and not get caught. 0:30:58.000 --> 0:30:59.680 And that's how you get promoted. In my world. 0:31:00.080 --> 0:31:03.880 I look, I think if people look back, if we're honest, 0:31:04.160 --> 0:31:06.760 that it would have been so much better. Like the 0:31:07.120 --> 0:31:09.600 means justify the ends. If you take someone out like 0:31:09.720 --> 0:31:13.480 Osama bin Laden. If an opportunity presented, and my understanding 0:31:13.720 --> 0:31:16.360 was there was ample opportunity, it could have been done, 0:31:16.560 --> 0:31:20.720 but the decisions above decided not to. And hindsight's a 0:31:20.800 --> 0:31:23.120 wonderful thing. But look where we're at now and the 0:31:23.240 --> 0:31:25.760 damage that was caused and the lives that were lost, So. 0:31:27.360 --> 0:31:29.000 It must be The sad thing is that you know, 0:31:29.120 --> 0:31:31.360 it wasn't just killing the guy. You know, we are 0:31:31.440 --> 0:31:34.720 prohibited from doing political killings. I'm good with that. If 0:31:34.760 --> 0:31:39.400 you're an elected proper or even a dictator, that's off limits. 0:31:39.440 --> 0:31:41.880 But when you have a terrorist that you know is 0:31:41.960 --> 0:31:46.840 targeting Americans and it's going after other democratic allys that 0:31:46.920 --> 0:31:51.360 we have, and you have the capability to disrupt and 0:31:51.520 --> 0:31:55.760 preempt their intentions, that is our job. As a matter 0:31:55.760 --> 0:31:57.720 of fact, that's one of the models of the count 0:31:57.720 --> 0:32:01.840 of Terrorist Center is to be able to deter or 0:32:01.960 --> 0:32:06.320 prevent acts of happening, not retaliate after the fact. So 0:32:06.680 --> 0:32:09.320 we had plans, we even proposed plans of not even 0:32:09.360 --> 0:32:12.680 shooting him. We knew that he was so comfortable in cartoon. 0:32:13.240 --> 0:32:17.120 Khartoum at the time was a hotel for terrorists. That's 0:32:17.160 --> 0:32:21.360 where Carlo the Jackal was captured by Billy Waugh, my 0:32:21.520 --> 0:32:25.720 friend in ninety two. Because he was there, he knew, 0:32:25.760 --> 0:32:28.920 he knew the operations. But if you were a terrorist 0:32:28.960 --> 0:32:31.240 and you had money, you could go to Khartom and 0:32:31.400 --> 0:32:35.320 you were there with impunity, you had papers and everything else. 0:32:35.360 --> 0:32:37.320 So he was what we call in the white He 0:32:37.600 --> 0:32:42.040 was driving his own car going to places, so coming 0:32:42.080 --> 0:32:45.080 in with the team and kidnapping him and throwing him 0:32:45.080 --> 0:32:47.760 in a helicopter and getting out of there was very doable. 0:32:48.880 --> 0:32:50.800 Shooting is a lot easier when you try to take 0:32:50.840 --> 0:32:53.080 a you know, a six foot five guy that weighs 0:32:53.120 --> 0:32:56.160 two hundred pounds against his will. That's a little harder 0:32:56.240 --> 0:32:59.120 than out of a country. But shooting him up, but 0:32:59.360 --> 0:33:02.680 we had the options. It wasn't just you know, shooting them. 0:33:03.600 --> 0:33:06.920 But the fordit to the political fortitude was never there. 0:33:07.240 --> 0:33:09.760 It was never their stomach for it. So when that 0:33:10.480 --> 0:33:13.080 you guys were looking at him, knew that he was 0:33:13.200 --> 0:33:17.560 up to stuff. You disrupted him, financial trials whatever, why 0:33:17.680 --> 0:33:17.960 you can. 0:33:18.200 --> 0:33:19.920 Yeah, I mean we went after the money as much 0:33:19.920 --> 0:33:22.400 as possible. That was one of the things the initiatives 0:33:22.440 --> 0:33:25.719 that that we were going after. I mean again, logistics 0:33:26.440 --> 0:33:31.320 is is what you know, experts really practiced, and logistics 0:33:31.400 --> 0:33:34.560 means money and the cost of that logistics. So we 0:33:34.680 --> 0:33:37.200 did attack that, but primarily was trying to go out 0:33:37.400 --> 0:33:41.960 and get sources that could report on these terrorist groups. 0:33:42.400 --> 0:33:46.600 You know, we we you know, a national terrorism where 0:33:47.120 --> 0:33:49.800 like in South America, what I dealt with, what I 0:33:49.880 --> 0:33:53.960 dealt with in the Philippines, to international terrorism, which was 0:33:54.200 --> 0:33:57.560 any evolution of that, you know where I started spreading 0:33:57.640 --> 0:34:00.480 all over you know, like has wella hitting you know, 0:34:00.600 --> 0:34:05.160 the synagogue in Argentina, you know that, that kind of 0:34:05.320 --> 0:34:08.959 international capabilities. So trying to be able to not only 0:34:09.880 --> 0:34:15.160 penetrate those groups, but work with friendly liaison services to 0:34:15.320 --> 0:34:17.800 help each other, like in the Philippines, like in the 0:34:18.160 --> 0:34:22.120 South American country, where we would help certain people be 0:34:22.280 --> 0:34:25.080 better at their jobs so we could help them take 0:34:25.200 --> 0:34:27.239 down the bad guys before they took us. 0:34:27.360 --> 0:34:31.320 Now, the pressure that you carry with task like that, 0:34:31.440 --> 0:34:33.520 if you've been assigned that. It's not a nine to 0:34:33.600 --> 0:34:36.879 five job obviously, but you'd have to give your heart 0:34:36.960 --> 0:34:40.120 and soul to that. Then there's always something more, something 0:34:40.200 --> 0:34:42.480 more that I could do. Did you find that type 0:34:42.520 --> 0:34:45.239 of pressure working working cases like that? 0:34:46.200 --> 0:34:49.400 Yeah? And And to tell you the truth is, I 0:34:49.719 --> 0:34:53.319 don't think that I did enough. I really look back 0:34:53.400 --> 0:34:57.360 and I think I wish I would have done this, 0:34:57.560 --> 0:34:59.320 or I would have done more, or I would have 0:34:59.520 --> 0:35:03.759 insisted it on this. You know, I think the people 0:35:03.880 --> 0:35:09.320 in our business are never satisfied with the damage that 0:35:09.400 --> 0:35:12.080 we could do to the bad gays, you know, the 0:35:12.360 --> 0:35:15.440 justice we can bring to the to the PURBs, you know, uh, 0:35:15.840 --> 0:35:18.600 and even to this day, you know, I sit here 0:35:18.680 --> 0:35:21.719 and I'm well retired and everything else, and I go like, 0:35:21.960 --> 0:35:25.520 you know what I miss it? I missed being able 0:35:25.600 --> 0:35:27.240 to know what's. 0:35:27.040 --> 0:35:30.360 Going on and doing something about it and making a difference. 0:35:30.680 --> 0:35:33.719 And you need, I think, to be good operators in 0:35:33.800 --> 0:35:37.719 that field or other other fields, you need that obsession 0:35:38.120 --> 0:35:41.400 or it needs to be bordering on obsession. I'd get 0:35:41.480 --> 0:35:45.320 criticized to say, are you too passionate? It's passionate with perspective, 0:35:45.360 --> 0:35:47.520 and I think you've got to be passionate about what 0:35:47.640 --> 0:35:50.640 you do. I think it's interesting. And you paid homage 0:35:50.719 --> 0:35:53.880 to some of the Intel operators that were just brilliant 0:35:54.000 --> 0:35:57.640 at what they did. Information that they could analyze and 0:35:58.160 --> 0:36:01.399 see the links that me immortals down, see those type 0:36:01.400 --> 0:36:03.640 of things. I think on one of your teams you 0:36:03.719 --> 0:36:10.399 had a businessman accountant mindset, wasn't the most socially capable guy, 0:36:10.520 --> 0:36:13.759 but was very good at what he did. You need 0:36:13.840 --> 0:36:17.520 a team of almost misfits to a degree that come 0:36:17.600 --> 0:36:20.560 together to make something function with. What's your take on that. 0:36:21.040 --> 0:36:23.680 You're the ring master of the zoo at the the 0:36:25.239 --> 0:36:27.400 the event, because yeah, you're right. I mean I had 0:36:27.480 --> 0:36:31.600 several paramilitary guys that were pointy, elbowed. They just wanted 0:36:31.600 --> 0:36:34.920 to go out and bite people. And you gotta you 0:36:35.000 --> 0:36:36.920 know again, you know, you know when to let them 0:36:37.000 --> 0:36:39.320 loose and went to control them. And we had people 0:36:39.360 --> 0:36:43.120 that you know, have really rough personalities. Now I didn't. 0:36:43.320 --> 0:36:48.239 I was always from the other school. I only blew 0:36:48.360 --> 0:36:50.279 up a couple of times in the agency and just 0:36:50.600 --> 0:36:53.400 really they had to repeat my room after I got 0:36:53.440 --> 0:36:55.640 through a couple of these individuals that really really did 0:36:55.719 --> 0:36:59.399 something stupid. But for the most part, I would try 0:36:59.480 --> 0:37:02.560 to preempt by the gaiters. And like I said earlier, 0:37:02.880 --> 0:37:05.760 you know, our job in the agency, as we claim, 0:37:06.440 --> 0:37:11.440 is to ojt the next person. You know, rainom on 0:37:11.600 --> 0:37:13.480 what to do, how to do this, and you do 0:37:13.560 --> 0:37:15.680 it by example. It's like with your kids. You know, 0:37:15.800 --> 0:37:18.000 your kids do what they see you do, not what 0:37:18.120 --> 0:37:21.600 you tell them to do. Same thing in business. You know, 0:37:21.680 --> 0:37:24.160 it's the same thing in our business that the people 0:37:24.239 --> 0:37:26.560 that you're mentoring look up to you and they go, 0:37:26.719 --> 0:37:29.759 oh gee, you know that that's not what Gary would do. 0:37:29.840 --> 0:37:32.200 He would do this, and that that's how you guide 0:37:32.239 --> 0:37:32.960 them in that direction. 0:37:33.160 --> 0:37:38.080 Now, but it is I think the mentoring in the 0:37:38.200 --> 0:37:40.239 type of world you operate, because you can't learn it 0:37:40.320 --> 0:37:44.760 from a textbook. You need these good mentors. And throughout 0:37:44.800 --> 0:37:46.560 your book you pay homage to a lot of people 0:37:46.640 --> 0:37:49.880 that obviously had a big impact on you, and you 0:37:50.040 --> 0:37:53.920 took the way they'd operate and tried to adapt that 0:37:54.040 --> 0:37:56.640 to something that soothed yourself. Is that a fair assessment? 0:37:57.280 --> 0:37:59.480 How you navigated your way through the very is. 0:37:59.560 --> 0:38:03.120 Very excell assessment. And it wasn't just the operational part, 0:38:03.200 --> 0:38:06.680 but was the leadership part. You know, learning to be 0:38:06.840 --> 0:38:10.440 a leader. You have some natural qualities, but they only 0:38:10.440 --> 0:38:12.560 need to be polished. All our strengths always need to 0:38:12.640 --> 0:38:17.279 be polished. And I was blessed with leaders, not managers. 0:38:17.719 --> 0:38:20.400 I was, you know, blocked with leaders. There's a huge difference. 0:38:21.080 --> 0:38:24.759 So learning how to you know, gain the confidence of 0:38:24.840 --> 0:38:27.440 your men and women. I will tell you that at 0:38:27.440 --> 0:38:29.440 the end of my retirement. When I retired, I got 0:38:29.520 --> 0:38:33.640 some pretty pretty heavy duty medals, but the biggest badge 0:38:33.640 --> 0:38:36.160 of honor that I got was my guys coming up 0:38:36.239 --> 0:38:39.080 to me and going, you're the only senior officer we've 0:38:39.120 --> 0:38:42.480 ever paid working for That was first through the door, 0:38:43.000 --> 0:38:46.600 first in the gym first picking up brass. I never 0:38:46.800 --> 0:38:50.760 asked guys else to do nothing that I hadn't done before. 0:38:51.600 --> 0:38:55.440 You're not a leader on the world lead it's implied 0:38:55.480 --> 0:38:58.080 to the name. You have to show them that you 0:38:58.200 --> 0:39:00.759 can do it better than them, and then they try 0:39:00.800 --> 0:39:02.480 to emulate you, and that's how you grow them. 0:39:02.600 --> 0:39:07.200 I one hundred percent agree with your thoughts and philosophies 0:39:07.360 --> 0:39:12.359 there on leadership, management and leading. And yeah, I got 0:39:12.440 --> 0:39:14.520 criticized because I'm out in the field or I'm in 0:39:14.600 --> 0:39:16.399 the witness box. What are you doing in there? You're 0:39:16.920 --> 0:39:21.600 a detective inspector. Why isn't sergeant? It's not asking people 0:39:21.719 --> 0:39:25.480 to do stuff that you wouldn't do yourself. And yeah, 0:39:25.760 --> 0:39:28.840 and everyone in the team, I think another aspect of 0:39:29.280 --> 0:39:32.920 working with dynamic teams. Everyone in the team is as 0:39:33.040 --> 0:39:35.880 important as anyone else, So it's not this sort of 0:39:35.960 --> 0:39:39.480 pecking order, or that's a junior officer. Sometimes the junior 0:39:39.520 --> 0:39:41.600 officer comes up with the best idea out of all 0:39:42.640 --> 0:39:44.840 You've got to draw all that information. 0:39:45.239 --> 0:39:47.520 Absolutely, I'm a friend believer in that. 0:39:48.920 --> 0:39:52.400 Nine eleven. On the day you're in the CIA, what 0:39:52.560 --> 0:39:55.920 was your position and describe how you became aware of it? 0:39:56.080 --> 0:39:57.680 And the flow on effect from that. 0:39:57.760 --> 0:39:59.879 Well, for me, that was a pad peeve obviously, because 0:40:00.080 --> 0:40:02.439 like I said, I started to visit the task Force 0:40:02.680 --> 0:40:05.400 in ninety six and here we are in two thousand 0:40:05.400 --> 0:40:08.080 and one and now I'm the Chief of Operations for 0:40:08.280 --> 0:40:11.880 CIA's Counter Terrorist Center. In other words, I'm in charge 0:40:12.320 --> 0:40:14.480 of all the people that are trying to mess with 0:40:14.560 --> 0:40:19.640 the bad guys worldwide. My experiences from Bin laden Uh 0:40:19.800 --> 0:40:22.120 taught me a lot. And when we were getting all 0:40:22.239 --> 0:40:25.800 this noise that they were up to, we knew that 0:40:25.880 --> 0:40:27.840 they were up to something. We knew that they were 0:40:27.880 --> 0:40:29.759 going to hit us. We didn't know when or where, 0:40:30.400 --> 0:40:32.239 but we knew that they were going to hit us, 0:40:32.280 --> 0:40:34.680 and that was very frustrating for us. And then of 0:40:34.719 --> 0:40:36.960 course when we got hit, I was there as a 0:40:37.040 --> 0:40:38.840 matter of fact that you know, we all know exactly 0:40:38.880 --> 0:40:43.640 where we were a lot on ninety eleven, and it 0:40:43.800 --> 0:40:48.240 changed the whole dynamics of the CIA all of a sudden, 0:40:48.600 --> 0:40:53.640 the diplomatic circuit was tritiary. Now it was kind of terrorism. 0:40:53.800 --> 0:40:56.279 We needed to go back and try to put that 0:40:56.400 --> 0:40:59.800 genie back in the in the bottle. So for me, 0:41:00.000 --> 0:41:04.879 it was a learning experience that again, if we would 0:41:04.880 --> 0:41:07.160 have been able to do something about bin Laden before 0:41:08.120 --> 0:41:10.960 that would have happened. And number two, if we had 0:41:12.880 --> 0:41:17.239 things in place that would allow us to disrupt other organizations. 0:41:17.320 --> 0:41:20.520 And again this is what I gave up my big 0:41:20.640 --> 0:41:23.040 job for to go out on on the road with 0:41:23.200 --> 0:41:27.279 twelve men and women. And it was my concept was 0:41:27.640 --> 0:41:32.320 give me thirty names of key individuals that have a 0:41:32.400 --> 0:41:36.840 public persona for every organization. Okay, so three from Hesbola, 0:41:36.920 --> 0:41:38.800 three from al Kaeda, three from this or that and 0:41:38.880 --> 0:41:41.960 the other. We went out, we made book on them. 0:41:42.480 --> 0:41:44.480 We had patterns of life, We knew what kind of 0:41:44.560 --> 0:41:46.279 cars they had. There was a guy that I even 0:41:46.320 --> 0:41:48.400 had a set of keys for his car that we 0:41:48.440 --> 0:41:50.719 have been able to finagle. So we had all these 0:41:50.760 --> 0:41:55.239 things in place. And the idea was when Hesbolah, when 0:41:55.280 --> 0:41:59.040 we're hearing that chatter that Hesbola Hamas or any of 0:41:59.080 --> 0:42:02.200 these are doing are planning something, what do you think 0:42:02.320 --> 0:42:05.000 happens if all of a sudden, three of their senior 0:42:05.040 --> 0:42:10.040 guys in three different places get neutralized. One gets couple, 0:42:10.480 --> 0:42:13.960 one guests duck taped and brought to justice, the other 0:42:14.040 --> 0:42:16.040 one gets shot. What do you think they're going to do? 0:42:16.320 --> 0:42:19.680 They're going to stop their operations because they think they're penetrated. 0:42:20.640 --> 0:42:24.040 So that's that's what I learned from my experiences and 0:42:24.120 --> 0:42:26.600 what I try to inculcate and what I try to 0:42:26.640 --> 0:42:27.759 set up at the end of my career. 0:42:28.200 --> 0:42:32.440 It makes sense in the theory of it, like be proactive, 0:42:32.520 --> 0:42:34.480 have it there ready. If we need to, we roll 0:42:34.520 --> 0:42:37.840 because it's always hard playing catch up, isn't it? Life 0:42:38.239 --> 0:42:39.000 events already? 0:42:39.040 --> 0:42:41.080 And when I briefed that program, one of the things 0:42:41.120 --> 0:42:43.200 I told them was I said, you can't told the 0:42:43.280 --> 0:42:47.040 directors is you cannot build the firehouse when your house 0:42:47.120 --> 0:42:49.719 is on fire. These are things you have to have. 0:42:50.520 --> 0:42:52.920 So when the fire starts, you have the firehouse, you 0:42:53.040 --> 0:42:55.520 have the water, hydrants, you have everything. It's the same thing. 0:42:55.920 --> 0:43:01.440 You can't wait until you've been hit to neutralize or preempty. 0:43:01.560 --> 0:43:08.480 So yeah, you've got that, got the hose ready? Was 0:43:08.520 --> 0:43:11.240 there a finger pointing with what happened on nine eleven? 0:43:11.520 --> 0:43:13.960 Like I would imagine there would be people that be 0:43:14.080 --> 0:43:16.920 looking looking over why didn't we do this? Why didn't 0:43:16.920 --> 0:43:21.640 we do that? How did the organization react at. 0:43:21.560 --> 0:43:25.359 The political level? Yes, of course, obviously George Bush had 0:43:25.400 --> 0:43:27.759 just taken over, so he was a very different individual, 0:43:28.880 --> 0:43:32.200 and he actually was extremely supportive of the agency and 0:43:32.680 --> 0:43:35.320 gave us free reign to go after but Laden, that's sweets. 0:43:35.560 --> 0:43:38.840 He's saying that, you know, the special authorities for us 0:43:38.920 --> 0:43:41.040 to go after Bin Laden anywhere that he was at. 0:43:42.600 --> 0:43:45.480 But there were some political comments, you know, people say 0:43:45.560 --> 0:43:49.080 you should have you know, I remember having Feinstein chastise 0:43:49.200 --> 0:43:51.880 us about not doing this or not doing that. And 0:43:52.840 --> 0:43:54.520 the thing is I could go right back to him 0:43:54.560 --> 0:43:57.319 and said, I could have had been Laden in ninety seven. 0:43:57.760 --> 0:44:00.040 I could have had a lot of ninety eight it 0:44:00.160 --> 0:44:04.120 had been Laden in eighty nine. So yeah, you took 0:44:04.160 --> 0:44:07.759 away the tools that I had to neutralize them. And 0:44:08.160 --> 0:44:10.279 now he's doing this to you, and you want to say, 0:44:10.320 --> 0:44:12.400 why did this happen? And well, how we cannot prevent it? 0:44:12.719 --> 0:44:16.239 We couldn't shuts down the appetite to lay the blame 0:44:16.280 --> 0:44:17.200 at your feet. 0:44:17.680 --> 0:44:19.239 That's right, that's right. 0:44:20.040 --> 0:44:23.480 And I think in operational phases and this is obviously 0:44:23.640 --> 0:44:28.600 at the extreme, but if it's documented there and make 0:44:28.719 --> 0:44:31.719 people make the decisions, will not just say I look reck, 0:44:31.800 --> 0:44:34.839 we'd rather you didn't put the report in. Make them 0:44:34.880 --> 0:44:37.360 sign off and go no, you can't do that, because 0:44:37.760 --> 0:44:41.120 when something does happen as catastrophic as that was, people 0:44:41.200 --> 0:44:44.600 look back and they look for blame and the only 0:44:44.640 --> 0:44:46.480 way they protect yourself because I've seen a lot of 0:44:46.520 --> 0:44:50.080 good people come on stark because they haven't got the documentation. 0:44:50.960 --> 0:44:53.920 We know it wasn't their fault on what's happened, but 0:44:54.120 --> 0:44:56.840 people higher above or with more power, more influence of 0:44:56.920 --> 0:44:58.200 many to point the finger at them. 0:44:58.880 --> 0:45:02.040 It isn't making never every organization, Like I said before, 0:45:02.080 --> 0:45:05.240 you cannot run in special ops through a political optic, 0:45:05.320 --> 0:45:08.680 and our bosses are political and you know we we 0:45:08.800 --> 0:45:13.520 are a military structure organization. So you know, just because 0:45:13.640 --> 0:45:15.600 I used to tell my guys, just because I'm saying 0:45:15.640 --> 0:45:17.440 please and thank you, which I always do, doesn't mean 0:45:17.520 --> 0:45:20.560 that is a request. Okay, Now an order is an 0:45:20.640 --> 0:45:22.759 order and you're gonna follow it whether it's yes or 0:45:22.840 --> 0:45:25.239 no or sir, I don't want to do that, and 0:45:25.280 --> 0:45:27.960 I'll get somebody else that can do it. So you 0:45:28.040 --> 0:45:31.479 know that that that mentality at the political level doesn't 0:45:31.520 --> 0:45:36.680 doesn't doesn't calculate, and that is part of you know, 0:45:36.800 --> 0:45:39.440 getting your black built in bureaucracy as you go through 0:45:39.520 --> 0:45:44.520 the ranks, learning how do you can manipulate your your uppers. 0:45:44.680 --> 0:45:47.040 You know, you you manage down and you manage up. 0:45:47.120 --> 0:45:50.640 You lead down, and you manage up, because that's part 0:45:50.680 --> 0:45:53.280 of your job as a senior officer in any organization 0:45:54.160 --> 0:45:58.319 is to get through the bureaucracy and get the mission done. Yeah. 0:46:00.320 --> 0:46:02.800 I always if I was trying to manage up, I 0:46:03.320 --> 0:46:06.080 let the without naming names, let the boss think it 0:46:06.200 --> 0:46:08.719 was their idea. After I've told them what the idea is, 0:46:08.960 --> 0:46:11.000 and when they repeat it back to making that's a 0:46:11.040 --> 0:46:11.720 great idea. 0:46:13.320 --> 0:46:13.560 Yeah. 0:46:14.600 --> 0:46:20.240 I know, it's funny, isn't it. It does work simple. 0:46:20.400 --> 0:46:23.520 It's almost like good cop, bad cop. It's just so simple. 0:46:23.600 --> 0:46:27.160 Great idea, boss, Wow, Yeah, and then run with it. 0:46:27.680 --> 0:46:29.719 When did you decide it was time you got out 0:46:29.760 --> 0:46:31.880 of the CIA? It was there. It was there, just 0:46:31.960 --> 0:46:34.560 a time that you thought I'm done here, or what 0:46:34.760 --> 0:46:36.080 prompted you to leave? 0:46:37.320 --> 0:46:41.600 Very painful. Those programs that I created at the end, 0:46:41.680 --> 0:46:43.919 and they allowed me to put that in the book, 0:46:44.360 --> 0:46:46.880 not what we were able to do, but the concept 0:46:47.000 --> 0:46:50.279 and what we were, you know, capable of doing. I 0:46:50.400 --> 0:46:52.759 briefed the Vice President of the United States, Dick Cheney, 0:46:52.840 --> 0:46:56.399 on that program. He blessed it. But the time came 0:46:56.520 --> 0:46:59.919 to execute. You know, here here we are a trial 0:47:00.320 --> 0:47:02.719 to all these first, second, and third world countries, making 0:47:02.760 --> 0:47:06.360 book on bad guys, risking our lives, coming up with 0:47:06.440 --> 0:47:09.480 these ops plans, and then when you go to present them, 0:47:09.560 --> 0:47:13.040 they go yeah. And in one partic the one case 0:47:13.080 --> 0:47:15.000 that made it happen, we had this one target, We 0:47:15.120 --> 0:47:17.880 had him down to a nat We knew where, we ate, 0:47:18.040 --> 0:47:20.400 he knew where. We knew everything about this guy. And 0:47:20.480 --> 0:47:23.840 I briefed the director and the director of Operations and 0:47:23.960 --> 0:47:27.640 the DCI are the agency director, and I briefed them 0:47:27.680 --> 0:47:29.640 on our plan. Everything else well we were doing. It 0:47:29.840 --> 0:47:32.080 was a two hour meeting. They're asking me a million questions. 0:47:32.600 --> 0:47:35.360 At the end, the Director of Operations says to me, 0:47:35.719 --> 0:47:39.160 says to the director of the agency, says, sir, there's 0:47:39.239 --> 0:47:41.640 no doubt in our minds that Prado and his team 0:47:42.120 --> 0:47:44.600 can not only do this, but they can get away 0:47:44.680 --> 0:47:49.360 with it. I'm going like yes. Then he said, however, Comma, 0:47:50.160 --> 0:47:53.640 we need to look at the political implications of doing this. Now. 0:47:54.840 --> 0:47:58.040 That was the second time that this had happened. I 0:47:58.120 --> 0:48:00.920 went back down to my Boston CTC said I cannot 0:48:01.000 --> 0:48:04.719 put my people at harm's way just because we brief 0:48:04.800 --> 0:48:09.080 well and capabilitton tiger on your mantle that you could 0:48:09.120 --> 0:48:11.279 go to the politicians is we could do this, but 0:48:11.440 --> 0:48:13.520 you're never going to implement it. I cannot do that 0:48:13.600 --> 0:48:14.520 to my men and my women. 0:48:14.880 --> 0:48:16.799 And that was the time for me to go, Yeah, 0:48:17.160 --> 0:48:21.839 I understand, and walking away, you look back with fond 0:48:21.920 --> 0:48:24.960 memories of your time there and what you achieved and 0:48:25.040 --> 0:48:25.759 what you Yeah, you know. 0:48:25.800 --> 0:48:28.080 And a lot of people don't there, especially when they 0:48:28.160 --> 0:48:30.719 leave under that kind of circumstances, they tend to get bitter. 0:48:31.920 --> 0:48:34.399 I actually, and I describe it in the book because 0:48:34.440 --> 0:48:35.880 it was one of these things that God put in 0:48:35.960 --> 0:48:39.040 my brain on how to survive this. I literally the 0:48:39.160 --> 0:48:42.080 day that I retired, I walked in my house, I 0:48:42.160 --> 0:48:45.200 got my favorite cigar, got a bottle of my favorite wine, 0:48:45.880 --> 0:48:48.840 and sat outside. And my wife knew to leave me 0:48:48.880 --> 0:48:52.040 alone because she knows me well enough that just let 0:48:52.120 --> 0:48:54.200 them be. And I sat out there for two or 0:48:54.200 --> 0:48:57.200 three hours, and I started from the day that I 0:48:57.320 --> 0:49:01.080 started in the agency. I started recalling the things that 0:49:01.239 --> 0:49:03.680 happen and the people that I dealt with, and in 0:49:03.800 --> 0:49:06.600 my mind, every time there was a good op or 0:49:06.680 --> 0:49:09.520 a good leader, that was a crystal marble that I 0:49:09.560 --> 0:49:13.520 would put in one jar in my mind, the other 0:49:13.840 --> 0:49:17.799 was a black ball of the bad experiences. I would 0:49:17.840 --> 0:49:20.600 put that in the toilet. That was my mental exercise 0:49:20.920 --> 0:49:22.960 until I drank the whole bottle of wine and smoked 0:49:22.960 --> 0:49:26.120 the whole cigar, and I can look at it right here. 0:49:26.200 --> 0:49:28.360 I still have that jar full of marbles. I actually 0:49:28.400 --> 0:49:30.440 went out later and bought a jar and put marbles 0:49:30.520 --> 0:49:34.120 in it, clear marbles, to remind me that I could 0:49:34.160 --> 0:49:38.160 not afford to be bitter with a career that expanded 0:49:38.560 --> 0:49:41.600 over twenty four years, and that I know the successes 0:49:41.640 --> 0:49:44.520 that we had and the colleagues, the friends that I made. 0:49:44.680 --> 0:49:46.600 That when you know, when you go in harms way 0:49:46.640 --> 0:49:49.360 with somebody, there's a bonding that doesn't come out of 0:49:49.480 --> 0:49:52.759 the you know, the it's just different. And I could 0:49:52.760 --> 0:49:56.640 not afford to throw out twenty four years for a 0:49:56.719 --> 0:49:57.640 few black marbles. 0:49:57.760 --> 0:50:01.560 If you get my drift, so full credit to you there, Rick. 0:50:02.520 --> 0:50:05.080 It saddens me, and obviously I speak to a lot 0:50:05.120 --> 0:50:09.279 of ex law enforcement military types on here and the 0:50:09.360 --> 0:50:12.440 ones that look back with fond memories. The way to 0:50:12.520 --> 0:50:14.480 get it. I look back at every single day I 0:50:14.560 --> 0:50:16.680 had in the cops. I enjoyed it. There were some 0:50:16.800 --> 0:50:19.200 bad things, yeah, but there's bad things in every way. 0:50:19.520 --> 0:50:22.600 The fact that you can look at your career it 0:50:23.080 --> 0:50:25.920 is so good for your own soul, isn't it. How 0:50:26.000 --> 0:50:28.040 would you be if you walk away and you just 0:50:28.120 --> 0:50:31.120 bitter and and that just burns inside you. So full 0:50:31.160 --> 0:50:33.680 credit to you. But I like the marble idea. 0:50:34.120 --> 0:50:36.200 Yeah, like I said, I literally I can see it 0:50:36.239 --> 0:50:39.279 from here. I still have it there, just a nice 0:50:39.360 --> 0:50:42.000 reminder what I'm having a bad day or something to 0:50:42.080 --> 0:50:44.359 go look at that, and you go, I've had worse 0:50:44.400 --> 0:50:46.280 and I've had better, and you march. 0:50:46.120 --> 0:50:48.839 On, you know, and your life for you now, your 0:50:49.400 --> 0:50:51.680 wife is glad you're at home or does she want 0:50:51.719 --> 0:50:53.239 to send you back out in the field to get 0:50:53.280 --> 0:50:53.600 some time? 0:50:53.640 --> 0:50:56.680 And I think sometimes she said, you know, there was 0:50:56.719 --> 0:50:58.439 a time there where she would have kind of aren't 0:50:58.440 --> 0:51:01.560 you going teddy y somewhere because we'll spend the time, 0:51:01.920 --> 0:51:03.600 you know, that kind of thing. But no, you know, 0:51:03.680 --> 0:51:05.759 we have we have a very strong relationship. We do 0:51:05.800 --> 0:51:08.960 a lot of things together. And I'm at this stage 0:51:09.000 --> 0:51:11.360 in my life where where I really just want to 0:51:11.360 --> 0:51:15.280 spend my time on you know, my my family, my friends. 0:51:16.880 --> 0:51:19.800 I'm at that age where there isn't a month that 0:51:19.840 --> 0:51:22.360 I don't lose a colleague or a friend, you know, 0:51:22.520 --> 0:51:26.759 either either through you know, operational attrition or or you know, 0:51:27.120 --> 0:51:30.920 through illnesses. And it's the old. Hey. You know, the 0:51:31.000 --> 0:51:34.239 only day that you own is today. So we try 0:51:34.320 --> 0:51:36.200 to make the best of it. We take vacations, we 0:51:36.640 --> 0:51:41.120 spoil our grandkids, and you know, live live as best 0:51:41.160 --> 0:51:45.879 as we can. That that said, if I was called 0:51:45.920 --> 0:51:49.759 upon to help tomorrow, I would I cannot but say 0:51:49.800 --> 0:51:51.680 no to this. To my country, I couldn't do it. 0:51:52.080 --> 0:51:54.840 You've you've still got that each I can say it, 0:51:54.880 --> 0:51:56.719 I can say say it in if I say it 0:51:56.800 --> 0:51:59.239 in your time. But look, you're looking good. I also 0:51:59.440 --> 0:52:02.440 heard you say you love jumping on the motorbike or 0:52:02.520 --> 0:52:04.080 jumping on the horse, and that gives you a bit 0:52:04.160 --> 0:52:08.680 of fun and fun and freedom. So look, I just 0:52:08.760 --> 0:52:11.480 want to thank you for coming on. I've enjoyed the 0:52:11.560 --> 0:52:15.919 chat obviously, and more importantly thanking you for the work 0:52:15.960 --> 0:52:18.879 that you've done. I know the type of sacrifices people 0:52:19.000 --> 0:52:21.560 like you make to keep the world a safer place, 0:52:21.640 --> 0:52:24.080 and you come under criticism and everyone's got an opinion 0:52:24.200 --> 0:52:28.719 on different things. But yeah, you've demonstrated you've risen through 0:52:28.760 --> 0:52:31.080 all that and you've done some good. So full credit 0:52:31.160 --> 0:52:31.279 to you. 0:52:31.680 --> 0:52:33.239 Thank you very much. I mean so lot to me 0:52:33.560 --> 0:52:35.319 coming from a guy like you, that means so light. 0:52:35.560 --> 0:52:38.080 I appreciate it, appreciate it, and I just want to 0:52:38.120 --> 0:52:39.839 give a shout out to your book that we can 0:52:39.920 --> 0:52:43.839 see on your right shoulder, Black Ops, Rick Prade. I'm 0:52:43.880 --> 0:52:46.200 telling you, if you want to get a sense of 0:52:46.520 --> 0:52:49.279 the world, get yourself that book. I read a lot 0:52:49.320 --> 0:52:52.840 of books in lead ups to getting people on the podcast, 0:52:52.920 --> 0:52:55.200 and you just took me deep into that world. I 0:52:55.280 --> 0:52:58.960 think you're slightly crazy too. Rick got to say your 0:52:59.000 --> 0:53:01.920 first apparliament in Honduras. But full credit to. 0:53:01.920 --> 0:53:04.440 You, Thank you very much. Like I said, I've lived 0:53:04.480 --> 0:53:07.759 a blessed life. Cheers, jeers. Appreciate it.