1 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life the average person is never 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 4 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a 6 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 7 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 10 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 11 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 12 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 13 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. 14 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:48,880 Speaker 1: Rick Brada, welcome back to I Catch Killers. 15 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 2: I'm ready for you. Thank you very much. I'm really 16 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 2: enjoying this. 17 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I have got so much to ask you. 18 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: I just want to start off for just a little 19 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: bit of left field. Here. There's a quoting your book 20 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: by George all Will and this is a quote. We 21 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: sleep safely in our beds because rough mans stand ready 22 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:07,559 Speaker 1: in the night to visit violence on those who would 23 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: do us harm. I like that quote, and I understand 24 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: that quote, but I just want to get your comment 25 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: on that quote. 26 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 2: It's one of my favorite quotes because it's it, you know, 27 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 2: typifies our culture. You know, when we have Veterans' Day, 28 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,559 Speaker 2: most people focus on the military. I'm always always post 29 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:31,680 Speaker 2: something that includes our law enforcement, our first responders besides 30 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 2: the military, because it's it's what we do, you know. 31 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 2: So it's the majority. You figure in the United States, 32 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 2: for example, two percent of the population ever serves at 33 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 2: a given time in the military. Another percent serves in 34 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 2: law enforcement. Right, that means that the rest of the 35 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 2: ninety six percent have no idea what we do and 36 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 2: what we sacrifice in order for them to have the 37 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 2: life that we enjoy, whether it's in Australia or Brittany 38 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 2: or the United States, anywhere where they're there, where there 39 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 2: is are there are freedoms. So that that quote I 40 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:14,119 Speaker 2: think crystallizes and it's easier to explain to a lehman that, 41 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 2: you know, you know, sometimes you have to cray habit 42 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 2: and let slip the dogs of war. But those dogs 43 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:23,239 Speaker 2: are not going to bite you. They're going to bait 44 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 2: the person or the entity that is trying to destroy you. 45 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 2: That's one of my favorite quotes, and it's one that 46 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 2: I always love hearing. 47 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I like it, and it resonates with me as well, 48 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: because I think sometimes you do things that it's not 49 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 1: in your nature to do, but you do it because 50 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: you have to do it, and it's an ethical thing. 51 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: But it's not going to be pleasant, but you'll do that. 52 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: And quite often I think people don't understand what goes on, 53 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,119 Speaker 1: what goes on behind the closed doors to make sure 54 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: the world is safe. 55 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you look at like I said that 56 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 2: that ninety plus per scent of people that have never 57 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 2: been shot at, uh, have never had to shoot back, 58 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 2: had never had to fight to to neutralize an aggressor 59 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 2: and somebody who was trying to rape a woman or 60 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 2: whatever it is. So those are those are things that 61 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 2: and they don't understand the risk and everything else, and 62 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 2: mostly importantly, they don't understand the impact, the post incident 63 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 2: impact that those things have on the on the on 64 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 2: the person that has to carry them out. You know, 65 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 2: I'm like I said, I wrote Rescue in Miami, UH 66 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 2: in the seventies, for God's Sake, which was when the 67 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 2: drug wars were were rampant. 68 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: And uh, it would have sayn a bit then oh it. 69 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 2: Was, it was. It was brutal. And as a paramedic, 70 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 2: there were shootings every night. There were you know, robberies, 71 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 2: there were things. And it's it's funny because although, yeah, 72 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 2: there are some things in my a CIA career that 73 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 2: still give me a little bit of goosebumps, some of 74 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 2: the worst memories came from pole that I couldn't see. Uh, 75 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 2: people that were you know, we did everything we could, 76 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 2: but they still didn't make it. And and uh, I 77 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 2: read somewhere not too long ago a phrase of the 78 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 2: guy says, yes, said people don't understand that it is 79 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:18,160 Speaker 2: harder too. It is easier to forget somebody you had 80 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 2: to kill then to forget that you could not see. 81 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 2: What are your partners or what are your friends. 82 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: We've taken you back to Honduras for a moment when 83 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: you were working in the in the camps, and then 84 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 1: coming back coming back to your wife. You're living in 85 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: country and your wife was living in country. Was it 86 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: hard for you to go from yeah, you're in the jungle, 87 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 1: you're fighting in the jungle basically, and everything else that 88 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: you're doing. Then you come home and you walk through 89 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 1: the door and Hi, honey, I'm home. Like, how did 90 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: you how did you navigate between one extreme to the other. 91 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 2: That's that's an excellent question, and it's one that I 92 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 2: eventually mastard. I mean, I was pretty rough around the 93 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 2: edges of the beginning. You come out of these camps, 94 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 2: you have to be thinking tough, you have to be 95 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 2: you maybe you got shot at that day, because you know, 96 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 2: all these camps were right in the contested areas. And 97 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 2: but you know, I had two things going for me, 98 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 2: and the biggest one was my wife is a believer. 99 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 2: She didn't know exactly what I was doing. She knew 100 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 2: I was at the camp. She knew I carried a 101 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 2: gun and a grenade and a knife and all this 102 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 2: other stuff. But she was a believer because she lived Communism, 103 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,359 Speaker 2: so she knew that I wasn't out there drinking and 104 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 2: hurrying around. I was out there trying to win, to 105 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 2: win a battle. But you do learn to turn it off, 106 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 2: or at least to tone it down. I will tell 107 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,039 Speaker 2: you that one of the things that I that I 108 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 2: try to mentor my my my subordinates and people that 109 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 2: come to me, is something that I could have done 110 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 2: better was to better sensitize my spouse of what I 111 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 2: really do without going into operational details. But here's the 112 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 2: here's the problem. When Johnny, whose dad works at the 113 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 2: car dealer or owns a car dealer, has a bad 114 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 2: day and comes home pissed off, it means it's sullen. 115 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 2: Of course, when a guy like you or a guy 116 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 2: like me come home after we you know, and we've 117 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 2: had a bad day, is compromised, mission is compromised, and 118 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:24,600 Speaker 2: or somebody is dead, there's a severity. There's a severity 119 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 2: to the consequences that we live within that most people 120 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 2: do not understand. 121 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: I found it hard sometimes if you're in operational mode 122 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: and you come home and you're in an environment that's relaxed, 123 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: whether your kids are there, your partner there, or a 124 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: happy environment, and when you've been well. This is how 125 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: I found myself. When I'm in operational mode, I make 126 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: a decision, Bang, this needs to be done, that needs 127 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 1: to be done. That's the way you've got to operate. 128 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: You've got to operate at that speed. So you could 129 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: be doing that for days on end, and then you 130 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 1: come home and it might be a comment like do 131 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 1: you want to go out for dinner, and yeah, where 132 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 1: do you want to go? I don't care. Come we 133 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: get there, and it just the conversation escalates from there. 134 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: And that's just a silly example. But you're being in 135 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: an environment where it's bang bang bang, I know this, 136 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: done that, done this done, and then you're in this 137 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: relaxed environment and then you have to check yourself and 138 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: realize you're the one that'say out the step, not the 139 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: people that are. 140 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 2: That is absolutely true, and guilty is charged many many times. 141 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 2: But again with age. I mean, I've been married forty 142 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 2: two years, so I must have done something right eventually. 143 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 2: So but yeah, it's hard to turn it off. It 144 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 2: really is, and there's people that don't. There's people that 145 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 2: actually and those are the ones that unfortunately suffer the 146 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 2: consequences you know, alcohol or drug abuse or or whatever, 147 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 2: you know, just violent temperament issues. When you cannot, you 148 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 2: don't learn to turn it off, or at least to 149 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 2: turn it down. You never turn it off. 150 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: I always had, and that's why thirty four years in 151 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 1: the cops and I think I've come through relatively unscathed. 152 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: But I could switch it off. And I know people 153 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: that can't switch it off. I can be intense and 154 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: then walk through the door and yeah, there'll be a 155 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: debriefing type situation, but then I can just relax and 156 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: then okay, game on when you walk out the door again. 157 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: I think it's something that you're lucky, you're fortunate if 158 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: you can do that. Clearly, with the length of your 159 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: career and the type of stuff that you're doing, you 160 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: had the ability to cape with the pressures. 161 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 2: Yes, I think that that was part of the wiring 162 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 2: and the eventual growth that I did. But like I said, 163 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 2: having a family that really understood, you know, what I 164 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 2: was doing and the reasons I was doing these things. 165 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 2: Mix coming home a lot easier. Mix coming home a 166 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:49,319 Speaker 2: lot easier. 167 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, we've had you in the jungle, you've been 168 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: to the farm, We've polished you up. You've got all 169 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: the skills. You know which side the knife and fork 170 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: should be on. Communicate, you've got your edge. You get 171 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:06,439 Speaker 1: deployed to the Philippines, talk us through that deployment because 172 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: a lot happens in the Philippines that, Yeah, it can 173 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 1: be a crazy place. 174 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the Philippines at the time that that 175 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 2: was my third tour in my Latin American tour, which 176 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 2: I cannot mention the country, but both were being assaulted 177 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:30,959 Speaker 2: by highly trained, highly financed terrorist communist terrorists. One was Maoist, 178 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 2: the other ones where whatever. And the New People's Army 179 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 2: and the ABUSAF group was starting to take Wayne down 180 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 2: in mind now the southern part of the Philippines. So 181 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 2: the Philippines has always been a violent place. And when 182 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 2: these things were, they were literally on the streets. There 183 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 2: was a very famous colonel, Colonel Nick Roe wrote a 184 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 2: fantastic book called five Years to Freedom or something like that, 185 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 2: because he was a pow for five years and he 186 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 2: became the military attache in Manila and he was assassinated 187 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 2: like eight months before I got there, right on the streets. 188 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 2: In other words, mp A was, you know, operating with 189 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 2: impunity in the very capital of the country. And that's 190 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 2: what we were sent there to to butchers the local 191 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 2: I work with this constabulary, I work with the Navy, 192 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 2: and I worked with the army, the Special Operations. 193 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: GAY so and what what role did you go in there? Like, 194 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: what was America's interest to have you in there? What 195 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:32,199 Speaker 1: you can then count site it's. 196 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:34,199 Speaker 2: No I mean it's it's very basic. I mean, the 197 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 2: you know, we're trying to, uh to buoy a democracy 198 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 2: that is you know, failing because they don't have the 199 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 2: capability or the training. Uh So we were sent there 200 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 2: to work primarily with our counterparts and train them up 201 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 2: and provide them the craft that they needed to learn. 202 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 2: The logistics as you know, you know logistics in any 203 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 2: businesses there is the main and drive being able to 204 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 2: give them the resources financial and technical that they needed. 205 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 2: That was one of the things we were doing a 206 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 2: lot of intercepts because back then communications were more vulnerable, 207 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 2: and not that they're not now, but there it was. 208 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 2: It was part of the being able to find out 209 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 2: what the terrorists were planning or doing. So there was 210 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,439 Speaker 2: a lot of technical aspect to it also, but it 211 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 2: was our mission there was to help the government survive. 212 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 2: And eventually they did push the MPa out of the 213 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 2: city and back in. 214 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 1: The woods, and a lot of that would be done. 215 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: I would imagine Rick with human intelligence like getting people 216 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 1: and I think there was a quite a new book 217 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: that in the US you look for people's strength rather 218 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: than targeting their weaknesses. So when you're looking for an asset, 219 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: you're looking for someone that can help what you're trying 220 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:57,839 Speaker 1: to achieve. Can you talk us through that and the 221 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: difference between target need someone for their strength rather than 222 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: their weaknesses. Hew, yeah, different different nations upright. 223 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 2: That's an excellent question in one of my pet peeves. 224 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 2: You know, Soviets and Chinese and some of the more 225 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 2: radical elements. They recruit our strengths, but they also recruit 226 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 2: for weaknesses. In other words, you have a drinking problem, 227 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 2: you are being unfaithful to your wife, you're doing drugs, 228 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 2: you're doing something illegal, you're stealing from your company. They 229 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 2: love having those people because now they have them, they 230 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,559 Speaker 2: have them, they you know, they're demand. You know they 231 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 2: have them. So that part is very problematic because that 232 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 2: person will never be loyal to you because they're only 233 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 2: there under duress. I did twenty four and a half 234 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 2: years at CIA. Not ever did I see us recruit 235 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,439 Speaker 2: somebody for that reason. As a matter of fact, I've 236 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 2: had assets that were developing drinking problems and we would 237 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 2: find them, you know, find them help. They're gambling problems, 238 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 2: we would find them help because you know, a recruitment 239 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 2: is a process of getting the person to understand what 240 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 2: you're trying to do and make it, you know, mutually beneficial, 241 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 2: and part of that is taking care of that individual. 242 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 2: Training that individual and helping them were necessary. You know. 243 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 2: I think I recruited more people because their kids wanted 244 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,319 Speaker 2: to go to college and that was a thing that 245 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 2: we could make happen, you know, to help in the 246 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 2: long run. But those are the things you do to 247 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 2: be able to run an asset for ten, fifteen, twenty years, 248 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 2: thirty years, and those do exist. We do have those 249 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 2: those kind of track records with that. 250 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: Well you break it down and the term, yeah, the 251 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,839 Speaker 1: carrot or the stick to get what you want and 252 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: dangling the carrot. You made me reflect on a lot 253 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:02,199 Speaker 1: of my career was spent like nice crime and informants. 254 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: And I think about the informants, the ones that I 255 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: had long term relationships with and the ones that always 256 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: delivered and could be trusted. Were the ones that were 257 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: doing it not for their own mutual benefit, but doing 258 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: it for the right reason. It was something that they 259 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: wanted to do. And yeah, so I understand the logic 260 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: behind doing that. How it can be hypothetical, but you 261 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: just tell me, you've gone into a new country, whether 262 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: it be the Philippines or back in South America. You're 263 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: perhaps there working within the embassy, have a role within 264 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: the embassy. What do you how do you recruit someone 265 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: you just get out there and socialized, or how does 266 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: it work? Give us an example? 267 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know, so you know the data, the life 268 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 2: of a case officer. You get up in the morning, 269 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 2: you go to work, and well most people take the 270 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 2: most straight line. Well you can't. You have to be 271 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 2: watching to see if you're being watched because you may 272 00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 2: have a meeting that name and see what kind of 273 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 2: screwed you're in and you're checking in the embassy just 274 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 2: like everybody else. American embassies are kind of strange because 275 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 2: we do lie higher foreign nationals. Our secretaries and our 276 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 2: phone operators and some of the other stuff are are 277 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 2: foreign nationals. So you have to live your cover even 278 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 2: inside the embassy because obviously there will be penetrations through 279 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 2: those so those individuals. So you know, I've been a 280 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 2: political officer, I was a science officer in the Philippines. 281 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 2: I was liaison officer, which is what afforded me access 282 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 2: to the military guys. 283 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: H So. 284 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's it's it is a new challenge when 285 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 2: you come into a country and you have look, you 286 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 2: have to assume. Let me put it this way, foreign 287 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 2: services assume that you are a spy until you convince 288 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 2: them that you're not. 289 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: Okay, you're in art If you. 290 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 2: If you're an American working out of a US embassy, 291 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 2: the intel, the local intel service, will look at you 292 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 2: as a spy until if your tradecraft is good enough, 293 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 2: they eventually go, oh, this guy's just the boring whatever 294 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 2: is he in doing anything? And they put the resources 295 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 2: on somebody else. And that is very, very difficult, and 296 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 2: that is a huge process. And every time you start 297 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 2: in a new country, you start from scratch. You know, 298 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 2: you live your cover inside the embassy, outside the embassy. 299 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,479 Speaker 2: But then you do either through existing assets, get new 300 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 2: leads through intel research. You know, they say, hey, here's 301 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 2: the guy that made this comment, and you know he 302 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 2: may be willing to cooperate, and he works in the 303 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 2: ministry of whatever. And then we there's a process by 304 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 2: where we approach the individual under you know, false pretenses 305 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 2: for lack of a better word, usually in a social environment. 306 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 2: And once you become friends, you find out you know 307 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 2: what I've always described it is find out what keeps 308 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 2: them up at night. Uh and that if you could 309 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 2: resolve that for them, it is that is your entry 310 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 2: point into into recruitment. 311 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: They've got something, You've got something they need and you 312 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: bring them along there. You're also deployed with North Korea 313 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: or not in North Korea, but working in that field. 314 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: What was that lot? Because that's a yeah, SAI is 315 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:28,919 Speaker 1: a secretive organization, but North Korea it's very isolated. What 316 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: what was that lot? 317 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 2: I actually did four years total working the Korea account. 318 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 2: The first two was actually working in in Seoul and 319 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 2: the embassy UH. There, I was a senior liaison officer 320 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 2: uh so I had the US military J two was 321 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 2: my counterpart, but the heads of the different services including 322 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:53,199 Speaker 2: the police, which I made some good friends there. So 323 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 2: you know, the target is mutual. You know I was 324 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 2: working with a South Koreans. The target is mutual, which 325 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 2: is the North Koreans. The North Koreans have two natural enemies, 326 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 2: South Korea and the United States. That's it, That's all 327 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,880 Speaker 2: they care about. That's all they care about. So we 328 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 2: obviously don't have ready access. I'm not saying that we 329 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 2: don't have programs that we do have it as successes, 330 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 2: but North Korea is a very prohibitive place to operate 331 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 2: because there is no embassy, there's no you know, you're 332 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 2: you're under surveillance twenty four to seven. You have a 333 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 2: very controlled audience. So for us, that work is overseas. 334 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 2: There's about fifty some embassies, North Korean embassies throughout the world, 335 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 2: and that's where we target those individuals for recruitment, is 336 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 2: trying to find them and they're they're tough not to crack, 337 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 2: but we've cracked them. And when you don't crack them, 338 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,120 Speaker 2: you compromise them. And that was something that I developed 339 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 2: an act for you say no to me, you were 340 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 2: going to get into trouble. 341 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: Somehow, and and again without giving away trade craft, but 342 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: they could get in the trouble with an account created 343 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: in their name or something that doesn't reflect well on them, 344 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: or a picture of them hanging out with someone they 345 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: shouldn't be hanging out. Is that the type of thing 346 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: that they get compromised on. 347 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's it's it's a it's a it's 348 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,719 Speaker 2: it's very complicated in the sense of that it depends 349 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 2: on the individual. What's going on. In the case of 350 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:30,919 Speaker 2: the North Koreans, what I was able to do, was 351 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 2: I approach these guys as a Latin American private investigator, 352 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 2: a private businessman and spoke Native Spanish. This was in 353 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:45,679 Speaker 2: a Latin American country, and I went up to the 354 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 2: Korean embassy in that country, knocked on their door and say, hey, 355 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 2: my name is so and so, I'm from such and 356 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 2: such a country and I want to talk business with you. 357 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 2: That's very important because North Koreans have to earn their 358 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 2: own money to operate, and most of it they do 359 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 2: it through elicit businesses that they get into. A lot 360 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,199 Speaker 2: of it is procurement of embargo things for the for 361 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 2: the for the regime. So my thing was, I said, look, 362 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 2: I'm a businessman. I'm in the tobacco business. You guys 363 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,119 Speaker 2: have access to Cuba. Can you smuggle me some Cuban 364 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 2: seeds so I can improve my tobacco crop. And I 365 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 2: reached into my sock and I had a lot of 366 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 2: hundreds like this, And when I started doing that, that 367 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 2: got their attention. And uh, when when the time came 368 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,439 Speaker 2: that I pitched them, they you know, they did not 369 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:38,479 Speaker 2: want to work. There was a long process in between. 370 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 2: We turned them into the local authorities that these guys 371 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,120 Speaker 2: were smuggling. They get caught smuggling something into the country 372 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 2: and they get p Indeed, they get sent out of 373 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 2: the country in disgrace. And for North Korean that's often 374 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 2: a goolag type of existence. You embarrassed the regime by 375 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 2: getting compromised overseas. You go buy, you're gonna. 376 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: Pay heavy price, so you're not going to have a 377 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: good not having a good time. 378 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 2: Were subsequently a couple of years later, then I took 379 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,880 Speaker 2: over the whole career's program. That was where I made 380 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 2: senior grade, uh, and I worked with you. I was 381 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:18,439 Speaker 2: the the CIA's nsc rep for anything to do with Korea, 382 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 2: and that was a very very different assignment for me 383 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 2: than all the other stuff that was more kinetic and 384 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 2: more street wise than that. 385 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, how did you find like climbing that climbing the 386 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,439 Speaker 1: corporate ladder or say ladder, whatever you call it, How 387 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: did you find your career? Because were you getting pushed 388 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:39,159 Speaker 1: up and you're trying to stay at a level so 389 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:39,919 Speaker 1: you could operate? 390 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 2: Yes, and no, I never took an assignment for promotion. Never. 391 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 1: Well, Rick, can I just say I like you for that? 392 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 1: That says a lot about the type of person. You 393 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 1: are well done. Yeah, it is. 394 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 2: It is one of my badge of honors. I believe 395 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 2: in the mission, and when you do well your mission, 396 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 2: you're going to get recognized and moved up. I could 397 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 2: not say no to that position because that made me 398 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 2: a flank rack officer in the agency. But my heart 399 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 2: was always in operations and that job. After that job, 400 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 2: I took over in our counter terrorist center. I was 401 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 2: the chief of operations for the counter terrorist Center where 402 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 2: ninety eleven happened. So now I'm you know, at first 403 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 2: I wasn't out on the street, but I have fingers 404 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 2: in the pie. I'm mentoring my guys, on my gals, 405 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 2: I'm putting things together. We're doing renditions, We're doing all 406 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 2: of this stuff. So at least you're still in the game. 407 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 2: But to your point, about a year after ninety eleven, 408 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 2: I went to my boss and I said, we're not 409 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 2: doing enough on this outside of the military. You know, 410 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 2: military theaters, you know, Afghanistan and Iraq kind of thing. 411 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 2: At the time, it was only Afghanistan. And I came 412 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 2: up with a program for chasing bad guys all over 413 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 2: the world and getting patterns of life on them, getting 414 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 2: their tradecraft, who they see, where they live. In case 415 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 2: we needed to operate against them to disrupt them, we 416 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,360 Speaker 2: now had the ability to do so. So I went 417 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 2: from you know, chief of operations, where I had about 418 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 2: three hundred and fifty operators working for me, to having 419 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 2: a twelve person team because I had almost as many 420 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 2: women as I had guys to do this kind of work. 421 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 2: And we were doing surveillance and targeting bad guys. And 422 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 2: that's how I ended my career. The last two and 423 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 2: a half years of my career were out on the 424 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 2: street again. 425 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: Okay, And look, I think that operational experience that you 426 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: get that you've managed to stay in that area for 427 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: so long, and like some people might say, well you 428 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,640 Speaker 1: were managing three hundred and fifty people there and you've 429 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 1: gone down to fourteen. But I see quite often in policing, 430 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 1: and I can only speak of law enforcement, that we 431 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 1: lose a lot of the experience When people that rose, 432 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 1: as you said, through operational and you rise the very 433 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 1: thing that made them good, they take them away from 434 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 1: it and then they're they're in charge of something with 435 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 1: a rank, but all their operational skill has gone out 436 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 1: the door. So the fact that you ended up back 437 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 1: there Another question I wanted to ask, as working under 438 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: the false identifications, is that hard to get your head rounded? 439 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,640 Speaker 1: I know with my friend the French spy, at any 440 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: one time, he'd had five different identities that he could 441 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: rely on at different stages, didn't have to go from 442 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 1: one to the other, but had them there if needed 443 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: in the type of work that he was doing. We 444 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 1: had Joe Pistoni on the podcast Donnie Brasca who went 445 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:45,439 Speaker 1: undercover in with the mafia and speaking to him about 446 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 1: a really impressive, impressive fellow. He was about always being 447 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 1: alert and you've virtually got to live that life. Is 448 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 1: that how you adopted the identities you became John Smith 449 00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:57,959 Speaker 1: or whoever you were. 450 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:02,160 Speaker 2: You have to and we people didn't understand is like again, 451 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 2: James Bond, what walks into country acts and he is 452 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 2: James Bond and he goes and does all this crazy stuff. 453 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,880 Speaker 2: You know, we walk into country X and we're if 454 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,400 Speaker 2: we're already in alias. We have to live that cover, 455 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,639 Speaker 2: whether it's business, whatever it is that you're doing, tourism, 456 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 2: whatever it is, you have to live that character. And 457 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 2: but the the attention to details is what is you know, 458 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 2: precarious because I don't have to know the answer to 459 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 2: a question. All I need is your reaction to that question. 460 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 2: If I ask you what kind of color? 461 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:37,639 Speaker 1: What what? What? What? 462 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 2: What school did you go to in in the United 463 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,159 Speaker 2: States or where Holland or whatever the hell you and 464 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 2: you sit there, well, I yeah, I want to You're done. 465 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 2: So that's the time. I mean, what is the national 466 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 2: anthem of of your of your of your country. It 467 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 2: is just getting a piece of paper that says you're 468 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 2: Joe McGillicutty with a photo of you, and you go 469 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 2: out there and you go through that kind of security, 470 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 2: especially when you work in denied areas, which we do, 471 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 2: and swead. 472 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: The details counter terrorism the work when you got into there, 473 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: and that was mid nineties and when you started working 474 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 1: the canter terrorists. 475 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 2: By my first counter terrorism assignment, although I was still 476 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 2: a paramilitary officer, was in nineteen eighty eight when I 477 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 2: went to that South American country and I was resta 478 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,919 Speaker 2: wrong for CIA internally, you know, the outside folks did 479 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 2: not know that I was there doing that. So that 480 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 2: was my first. The center was created by one of 481 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 2: my mentors, Dewey Clerage, one of the most impressive men 482 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 2: I ever met in my life. He started the counter 483 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 2: Terrorism Center in nineteen eighty six, and in nineteen eighty eight, 484 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 2: my first assignment for CTC was that Latin American country. 485 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 2: From there I went to the Philippines. That was still 486 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 2: under the same ct auspices. 487 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 1: And when you were assigned task with Osama bin Laden, 488 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: it was at the the mid nineties. 489 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, but the lod was. We started the Bladden Task 490 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 2: Force in January of nineteen ninety six and I had 491 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 2: just come back from from Saul, Korea. I was a 492 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 2: branch chief. I had the PLO branch and all the 493 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,639 Speaker 2: Palestinian stuff. And I got called in and asked if 494 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 2: that I by name had come up for being the 495 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 2: deputy chief of station for a task force targeting Osama 496 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 2: Bin Laden, And I said who, and my boss exactly. 497 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 2: So I became the deputy chief of station for that 498 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 2: for that for that mission, and that was in nineteen 499 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 2: ninety six. There was an incredible operator named Billy Wall. 500 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 2: He was a being Bret legend, and he did thirty 501 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 2: some years in the agency on contract and I knew 502 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 2: that he had worked cartoon because I knew him. I 503 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 2: met him nineteen ninety in the Philippines. So that was 504 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,479 Speaker 2: one of my biggest you know sources when he came 505 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 2: to what cartoon like because that's where we're Osama bit 506 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,959 Speaker 2: lot all the time. So we started working against bin 507 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 2: Laden and you know, when let's say that when we 508 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 2: started we had two files on him. Six months later 509 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,119 Speaker 2: we had twenty or thirty. A year later we had 510 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,160 Speaker 2: one hundred. I mean we were between working liaison services 511 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 2: sources and then our technical overhead and singing and everything else, 512 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,679 Speaker 2: we were compiling a lot of information on bin Laden. 513 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 2: We knew he was bad. We had over the training 514 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 2: camps he was building, and unfortunately the administration at the 515 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 2: time did not want to take the risk that we 516 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 2: were proposed. He was, let's take care of this guy 517 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 2: now because he's building something that is huge and he's 518 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 2: got Saudi money by the tenth millions of dollars. And 519 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 2: it was always, well, we don't have enough proof. We 520 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 2: had people coming out and telling us this guy is 521 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 2: training terrorists to do this. We have the communications, but 522 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 2: they still wouldn't do it. And our thing was we 523 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 2: either additional you know, when you capture the individual and 524 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 2: take them out of country, or you you know, you 525 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 2: neutralize them by you know which everyone ag sent a 526 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 2: special team of military special team from the agency, from 527 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 2: our Special Activities Division, and they would never buy off 528 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 2: on that. And the reason I you know, that's so 529 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 2: important to me is because imagine if we would have 530 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 2: been allowed in nineteen ninety seven, nineteen ninety eight to 531 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 2: take down Usama bin Laden, it'd be like it would 532 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 2: it would be Hitler in nineteen thirty eight, the coal 533 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 2: the embassy bombings in Africa, you know, the ninety eleven 534 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 2: all those things were probably been adverted and not happened. 535 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: And is that because there was a lack of appetite 536 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: with the politicians, the presidents or various presidents about the 537 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: SAII and you know, an assassination basically if this person 538 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 1: is a target and there wasn't the stomach for it, 539 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: is that what prevented it? Yeah? 540 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 2: I mean, you know there is a risk adverse in 541 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 2: every in every uh uh you know organization. We had 542 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,239 Speaker 2: a few in the Agency, not many, but we did 543 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 2: have a few that were just like you said, careerists. 544 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 2: These are the individuals own up the ladder like this, 545 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 2: and you know, because they were always smelling where the 546 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 2: next promotion was. 547 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: So sorry, I'm laughing. I'm laughing, Rick, I'm with you. 548 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: I under understand it. Every decision that's made. How will 549 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: this further in my career? Yeah, that the top of 550 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: the hand. 551 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 2: Those but you know, the things with politicians also are 552 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 2: that they are in the art of compromising, and you 553 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 2: know they they they look at things. I always try 554 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 2: to teach people that you cannot run special military or 555 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 2: special intelligence operations through a political optic. You got to 556 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 2: put politics aside. You know, it's there's a mission. President 557 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 2: tells you you need to do this, You do whatever 558 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 2: it takes to get it done and not get caught. 559 00:30:58,000 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 2: And that's how you get promoted. In my world. 560 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: I look, I think if people look back, if we're honest, 561 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: that it would have been so much better. Like the 562 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: means justify the ends. If you take someone out like 563 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: Osama bin Laden. If an opportunity presented, and my understanding 564 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 1: was there was ample opportunity, it could have been done, 565 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: but the decisions above decided not to. And hindsight's a 566 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: wonderful thing. But look where we're at now and the 567 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 1: damage that was caused and the lives that were lost, So. 568 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 2: It must be The sad thing is that you know, 569 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 2: it wasn't just killing the guy. You know, we are 570 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 2: prohibited from doing political killings. I'm good with that. If 571 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 2: you're an elected proper or even a dictator, that's off limits. 572 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 2: But when you have a terrorist that you know is 573 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 2: targeting Americans and it's going after other democratic allys that 574 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 2: we have, and you have the capability to disrupt and 575 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 2: preempt their intentions, that is our job. As a matter 576 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 2: of fact, that's one of the models of the count 577 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 2: of Terrorist Center is to be able to deter or 578 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 2: prevent acts of happening, not retaliate after the fact. So 579 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 2: we had plans, we even proposed plans of not even 580 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 2: shooting him. We knew that he was so comfortable in cartoon. 581 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 2: Khartoum at the time was a hotel for terrorists. That's 582 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 2: where Carlo the Jackal was captured by Billy Waugh, my 583 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 2: friend in ninety two. Because he was there, he knew, 584 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 2: he knew the operations. But if you were a terrorist 585 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 2: and you had money, you could go to Khartom and 586 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 2: you were there with impunity, you had papers and everything else. 587 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 2: So he was what we call in the white He 588 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 2: was driving his own car going to places, so coming 589 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 2: in with the team and kidnapping him and throwing him 590 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 2: in a helicopter and getting out of there was very doable. 591 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 2: Shooting is a lot easier when you try to take 592 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 2: a you know, a six foot five guy that weighs 593 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 2: two hundred pounds against his will. That's a little harder 594 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 2: than out of a country. But shooting him up, but 595 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 2: we had the options. It wasn't just you know, shooting them. 596 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 2: But the fordit to the political fortitude was never there. 597 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: It was never their stomach for it. So when that 598 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: you guys were looking at him, knew that he was 599 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: up to stuff. You disrupted him, financial trials whatever, why 600 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: you can. 601 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we went after the money as much 602 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 2: as possible. That was one of the things the initiatives 603 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,719 Speaker 2: that that we were going after. I mean again, logistics 604 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 2: is is what you know, experts really practiced, and logistics 605 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 2: means money and the cost of that logistics. So we 606 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 2: did attack that, but primarily was trying to go out 607 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 2: and get sources that could report on these terrorist groups. 608 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 2: You know, we we you know, a national terrorism where 609 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 2: like in South America, what I dealt with, what I 610 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 2: dealt with in the Philippines, to international terrorism, which was 611 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 2: any evolution of that, you know where I started spreading 612 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 2: all over you know, like has wella hitting you know, 613 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 2: the synagogue in Argentina, you know that, that kind of 614 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,959 Speaker 2: international capabilities. So trying to be able to not only 615 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 2: penetrate those groups, but work with friendly liaison services to 616 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,800 Speaker 2: help each other, like in the Philippines, like in the 617 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 2: South American country, where we would help certain people be 618 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 2: better at their jobs so we could help them take 619 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 2: down the bad guys before they took us. 620 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:31,320 Speaker 1: Now, the pressure that you carry with task like that, 621 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: if you've been assigned that. It's not a nine to 622 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,879 Speaker 1: five job obviously, but you'd have to give your heart 623 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: and soul to that. Then there's always something more, something 624 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 1: more that I could do. Did you find that type 625 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 1: of pressure working working cases like that? 626 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 2: Yeah? And And to tell you the truth is, I 627 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,319 Speaker 2: don't think that I did enough. I really look back 628 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 2: and I think I wish I would have done this, 629 00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:59,320 Speaker 2: or I would have done more, or I would have 630 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 2: insisted it on this. You know, I think the people 631 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:09,320 Speaker 2: in our business are never satisfied with the damage that 632 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 2: we could do to the bad gays, you know, the 633 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 2: justice we can bring to the to the PURBs, you know, uh, 634 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 2: and even to this day, you know, I sit here 635 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 2: and I'm well retired and everything else, and I go like, 636 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 2: you know what I miss it? I missed being able 637 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,240 Speaker 2: to know what's. 638 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 1: Going on and doing something about it and making a difference. 639 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,719 Speaker 1: And you need, I think, to be good operators in 640 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 1: that field or other other fields, you need that obsession 641 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 1: or it needs to be bordering on obsession. I'd get 642 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,320 Speaker 1: criticized to say, are you too passionate? It's passionate with perspective, 643 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 1: and I think you've got to be passionate about what 644 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: you do. I think it's interesting. And you paid homage 645 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,880 Speaker 1: to some of the Intel operators that were just brilliant 646 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: at what they did. Information that they could analyze and 647 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,399 Speaker 1: see the links that me immortals down, see those type 648 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 1: of things. I think on one of your teams you 649 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:10,399 Speaker 1: had a businessman accountant mindset, wasn't the most socially capable guy, 650 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,759 Speaker 1: but was very good at what he did. You need 651 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 1: a team of almost misfits to a degree that come 652 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 1: together to make something function with. What's your take on that. 653 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 2: You're the ring master of the zoo at the the 654 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,400 Speaker 2: the event, because yeah, you're right. I mean I had 655 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 2: several paramilitary guys that were pointy, elbowed. They just wanted 656 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,920 Speaker 2: to go out and bite people. And you gotta you 657 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 2: know again, you know, you know when to let them 658 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,320 Speaker 2: loose and went to control them. And we had people 659 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 2: that you know, have really rough personalities. Now I didn't. 660 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 2: I was always from the other school. I only blew 661 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 2: up a couple of times in the agency and just 662 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,400 Speaker 2: really they had to repeat my room after I got 663 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 2: through a couple of these individuals that really really did 664 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,399 Speaker 2: something stupid. But for the most part, I would try 665 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 2: to preempt by the gaiters. And like I said earlier, 666 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,760 Speaker 2: you know, our job in the agency, as we claim, 667 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:11,440 Speaker 2: is to ojt the next person. You know, rainom on 668 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 2: what to do, how to do this, and you do 669 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 2: it by example. It's like with your kids. You know, 670 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 2: your kids do what they see you do, not what 671 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 2: you tell them to do. Same thing in business. You know, 672 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 2: it's the same thing in our business that the people 673 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 2: that you're mentoring look up to you and they go, 674 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 2: oh gee, you know that that's not what Gary would do. 675 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 2: He would do this, and that that's how you guide 676 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 2: them in that direction. 677 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 1: Now, but it is I think the mentoring in the 678 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 1: type of world you operate, because you can't learn it 679 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:44,760 Speaker 1: from a textbook. You need these good mentors. And throughout 680 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 1: your book you pay homage to a lot of people 681 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,880 Speaker 1: that obviously had a big impact on you, and you 682 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 1: took the way they'd operate and tried to adapt that 683 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 1: to something that soothed yourself. Is that a fair assessment? 684 00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 1: How you navigated your way through the very is. 685 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 2: Very excell assessment. And it wasn't just the operational part, 686 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 2: but was the leadership part. You know, learning to be 687 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,440 Speaker 2: a leader. You have some natural qualities, but they only 688 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 2: need to be polished. All our strengths always need to 689 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:17,279 Speaker 2: be polished. And I was blessed with leaders, not managers. 690 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,400 Speaker 2: I was, you know, blocked with leaders. There's a huge difference. 691 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,759 Speaker 2: So learning how to you know, gain the confidence of 692 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 2: your men and women. I will tell you that at 693 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 2: the end of my retirement. When I retired, I got 694 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 2: some pretty pretty heavy duty medals, but the biggest badge 695 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 2: of honor that I got was my guys coming up 696 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 2: to me and going, you're the only senior officer we've 697 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,480 Speaker 2: ever paid working for That was first through the door, 698 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 2: first in the gym first picking up brass. I never 699 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,760 Speaker 2: asked guys else to do nothing that I hadn't done before. 700 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 2: You're not a leader on the world lead it's implied 701 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 2: to the name. You have to show them that you 702 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,759 Speaker 2: can do it better than them, and then they try 703 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:02,480 Speaker 2: to emulate you, and that's how you grow them. 704 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 1: I one hundred percent agree with your thoughts and philosophies 705 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:12,359 Speaker 1: there on leadership, management and leading. And yeah, I got 706 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 1: criticized because I'm out in the field or I'm in 707 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:16,399 Speaker 1: the witness box. What are you doing in there? You're 708 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:21,600 Speaker 1: a detective inspector. Why isn't sergeant? It's not asking people 709 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:25,480 Speaker 1: to do stuff that you wouldn't do yourself. And yeah, 710 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,840 Speaker 1: and everyone in the team, I think another aspect of 711 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 1: working with dynamic teams. Everyone in the team is as 712 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,880 Speaker 1: important as anyone else, So it's not this sort of 713 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,480 Speaker 1: pecking order, or that's a junior officer. Sometimes the junior 714 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 1: officer comes up with the best idea out of all 715 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:44,840 Speaker 1: You've got to draw all that information. 716 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,520 Speaker 2: Absolutely, I'm a friend believer in that. 717 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,400 Speaker 1: Nine eleven. On the day you're in the CIA, what 718 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,920 Speaker 1: was your position and describe how you became aware of it? 719 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 1: And the flow on effect from that. 720 00:39:57,760 --> 00:39:59,879 Speaker 2: Well, for me, that was a pad peeve obviously, because 721 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,439 Speaker 2: like I said, I started to visit the task Force 722 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,400 Speaker 2: in ninety six and here we are in two thousand 723 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 2: and one and now I'm the Chief of Operations for 724 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,880 Speaker 2: CIA's Counter Terrorist Center. In other words, I'm in charge 725 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 2: of all the people that are trying to mess with 726 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 2: the bad guys worldwide. My experiences from Bin laden Uh 727 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 2: taught me a lot. And when we were getting all 728 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,800 Speaker 2: this noise that they were up to, we knew that 729 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:27,840 Speaker 2: they were up to something. We knew that they were 730 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:29,759 Speaker 2: going to hit us. We didn't know when or where, 731 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 2: but we knew that they were going to hit us, 732 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 2: and that was very frustrating for us. And then of 733 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:36,960 Speaker 2: course when we got hit, I was there as a 734 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:38,840 Speaker 2: matter of fact that you know, we all know exactly 735 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 2: where we were a lot on ninety eleven, and it 736 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:48,240 Speaker 2: changed the whole dynamics of the CIA all of a sudden, 737 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 2: the diplomatic circuit was tritiary. Now it was kind of terrorism. 738 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,279 Speaker 2: We needed to go back and try to put that 739 00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,800 Speaker 2: genie back in the in the bottle. So for me, 740 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:04,879 Speaker 2: it was a learning experience that again, if we would 741 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 2: have been able to do something about bin Laden before 742 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 2: that would have happened. And number two, if we had 743 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:17,239 Speaker 2: things in place that would allow us to disrupt other organizations. 744 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,520 Speaker 2: And again this is what I gave up my big 745 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,040 Speaker 2: job for to go out on on the road with 746 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:27,279 Speaker 2: twelve men and women. And it was my concept was 747 00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:32,320 Speaker 2: give me thirty names of key individuals that have a 748 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:36,840 Speaker 2: public persona for every organization. Okay, so three from Hesbola, 749 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:38,800 Speaker 2: three from al Kaeda, three from this or that and 750 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,960 Speaker 2: the other. We went out, we made book on them. 751 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,480 Speaker 2: We had patterns of life, We knew what kind of 752 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,279 Speaker 2: cars they had. There was a guy that I even 753 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:48,400 Speaker 2: had a set of keys for his car that we 754 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,719 Speaker 2: have been able to finagle. So we had all these 755 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:55,239 Speaker 2: things in place. And the idea was when Hesbolah, when 756 00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 2: we're hearing that chatter that Hesbola Hamas or any of 757 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,200 Speaker 2: these are doing are planning something, what do you think 758 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,000 Speaker 2: happens if all of a sudden, three of their senior 759 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 2: guys in three different places get neutralized. One gets couple, 760 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,960 Speaker 2: one guests duck taped and brought to justice, the other 761 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,040 Speaker 2: one gets shot. What do you think they're going to do? 762 00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 2: They're going to stop their operations because they think they're penetrated. 763 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 2: So that's that's what I learned from my experiences and 764 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,600 Speaker 2: what I try to inculcate and what I try to 765 00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:27,759 Speaker 2: set up at the end of my career. 766 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:32,440 Speaker 1: It makes sense in the theory of it, like be proactive, 767 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:34,480 Speaker 1: have it there ready. If we need to, we roll 768 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,840 Speaker 1: because it's always hard playing catch up, isn't it? Life 769 00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:39,000 Speaker 1: events already? 770 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,080 Speaker 2: And when I briefed that program, one of the things 771 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:43,200 Speaker 2: I told them was I said, you can't told the 772 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:47,040 Speaker 2: directors is you cannot build the firehouse when your house 773 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 2: is on fire. These are things you have to have. 774 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:52,920 Speaker 2: So when the fire starts, you have the firehouse, you 775 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:55,520 Speaker 2: have the water, hydrants, you have everything. It's the same thing. 776 00:42:55,920 --> 00:43:01,440 Speaker 2: You can't wait until you've been hit to neutralize or preempty. 777 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 1: So yeah, you've got that, got the hose ready? Was 778 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,240 Speaker 1: there a finger pointing with what happened on nine eleven? 779 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:13,960 Speaker 1: Like I would imagine there would be people that be 780 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:16,920 Speaker 1: looking looking over why didn't we do this? Why didn't 781 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:21,640 Speaker 1: we do that? How did the organization react at. 782 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:25,359 Speaker 2: The political level? Yes, of course, obviously George Bush had 783 00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:27,759 Speaker 2: just taken over, so he was a very different individual, 784 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:32,200 Speaker 2: and he actually was extremely supportive of the agency and 785 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,320 Speaker 2: gave us free reign to go after but Laden, that's sweets. 786 00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,840 Speaker 2: He's saying that, you know, the special authorities for us 787 00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:41,040 Speaker 2: to go after Bin Laden anywhere that he was at. 788 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,480 Speaker 2: But there were some political comments, you know, people say 789 00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:49,080 Speaker 2: you should have you know, I remember having Feinstein chastise 790 00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,880 Speaker 2: us about not doing this or not doing that. And 791 00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:54,520 Speaker 2: the thing is I could go right back to him 792 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,319 Speaker 2: and said, I could have had been Laden in ninety seven. 793 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,040 Speaker 2: I could have had a lot of ninety eight it 794 00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:04,120 Speaker 2: had been Laden in eighty nine. So yeah, you took 795 00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,759 Speaker 2: away the tools that I had to neutralize them. And 796 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,279 Speaker 2: now he's doing this to you, and you want to say, 797 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,400 Speaker 2: why did this happen? And well, how we cannot prevent it? 798 00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:16,239 Speaker 1: We couldn't shuts down the appetite to lay the blame 799 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:17,200 Speaker 1: at your feet. 800 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:19,239 Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. 801 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:23,480 Speaker 1: And I think in operational phases and this is obviously 802 00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:28,600 Speaker 1: at the extreme, but if it's documented there and make 803 00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:31,719 Speaker 1: people make the decisions, will not just say I look reck, 804 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,839 Speaker 1: we'd rather you didn't put the report in. Make them 805 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:37,360 Speaker 1: sign off and go no, you can't do that, because 806 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:41,120 Speaker 1: when something does happen as catastrophic as that was, people 807 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,600 Speaker 1: look back and they look for blame and the only 808 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:46,480 Speaker 1: way they protect yourself because I've seen a lot of 809 00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:50,080 Speaker 1: good people come on stark because they haven't got the documentation. 810 00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,920 Speaker 1: We know it wasn't their fault on what's happened, but 811 00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:56,840 Speaker 1: people higher above or with more power, more influence of 812 00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:58,200 Speaker 1: many to point the finger at them. 813 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:02,040 Speaker 2: It isn't making never every organization, Like I said before, 814 00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,240 Speaker 2: you cannot run in special ops through a political optic, 815 00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,680 Speaker 2: and our bosses are political and you know we we 816 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:13,520 Speaker 2: are a military structure organization. So you know, just because 817 00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:15,600 Speaker 2: I used to tell my guys, just because I'm saying 818 00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:17,440 Speaker 2: please and thank you, which I always do, doesn't mean 819 00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,560 Speaker 2: that is a request. Okay, Now an order is an 820 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:22,759 Speaker 2: order and you're gonna follow it whether it's yes or 821 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:25,239 Speaker 2: no or sir, I don't want to do that, and 822 00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,960 Speaker 2: I'll get somebody else that can do it. So you 823 00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:31,479 Speaker 2: know that that that mentality at the political level doesn't 824 00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:36,680 Speaker 2: doesn't doesn't calculate, and that is part of you know, 825 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,440 Speaker 2: getting your black built in bureaucracy as you go through 826 00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:44,520 Speaker 2: the ranks, learning how do you can manipulate your your uppers. 827 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,040 Speaker 2: You know, you you manage down and you manage up. 828 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,640 Speaker 2: You lead down, and you manage up, because that's part 829 00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,280 Speaker 2: of your job as a senior officer in any organization 830 00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:58,319 Speaker 2: is to get through the bureaucracy and get the mission done. Yeah. 831 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,800 Speaker 1: I always if I was trying to manage up, I 832 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:06,080 Speaker 1: let the without naming names, let the boss think it 833 00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:08,719 Speaker 1: was their idea. After I've told them what the idea is, 834 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,000 Speaker 1: and when they repeat it back to making that's a 835 00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:11,720 Speaker 1: great idea. 836 00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:13,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. 837 00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:20,240 Speaker 1: I know, it's funny, isn't it. It does work simple. 838 00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,520 Speaker 1: It's almost like good cop, bad cop. It's just so simple. 839 00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:27,160 Speaker 1: Great idea, boss, Wow, Yeah, and then run with it. 840 00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:29,719 Speaker 1: When did you decide it was time you got out 841 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:31,880 Speaker 1: of the CIA? It was there. It was there, just 842 00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:34,560 Speaker 1: a time that you thought I'm done here, or what 843 00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:36,080 Speaker 1: prompted you to leave? 844 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:41,600 Speaker 2: Very painful. Those programs that I created at the end, 845 00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:43,919 Speaker 2: and they allowed me to put that in the book, 846 00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:46,880 Speaker 2: not what we were able to do, but the concept 847 00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:50,279 Speaker 2: and what we were, you know, capable of doing. I 848 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:52,759 Speaker 2: briefed the Vice President of the United States, Dick Cheney, 849 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:56,399 Speaker 2: on that program. He blessed it. But the time came 850 00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,919 Speaker 2: to execute. You know, here here we are a trial 851 00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:02,719 Speaker 2: to all these first, second, and third world countries, making 852 00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:06,360 Speaker 2: book on bad guys, risking our lives, coming up with 853 00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,480 Speaker 2: these ops plans, and then when you go to present them, 854 00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:13,040 Speaker 2: they go yeah. And in one partic the one case 855 00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:15,000 Speaker 2: that made it happen, we had this one target, We 856 00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:17,880 Speaker 2: had him down to a nat We knew where, we ate, 857 00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:20,400 Speaker 2: he knew where. We knew everything about this guy. And 858 00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:23,840 Speaker 2: I briefed the director and the director of Operations and 859 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:27,640 Speaker 2: the DCI are the agency director, and I briefed them 860 00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:29,640 Speaker 2: on our plan. Everything else well we were doing. It 861 00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:32,080 Speaker 2: was a two hour meeting. They're asking me a million questions. 862 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:35,360 Speaker 2: At the end, the Director of Operations says to me, 863 00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:39,160 Speaker 2: says to the director of the agency, says, sir, there's 864 00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:41,640 Speaker 2: no doubt in our minds that Prado and his team 865 00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:44,600 Speaker 2: can not only do this, but they can get away 866 00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:49,360 Speaker 2: with it. I'm going like yes. Then he said, however, Comma, 867 00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:53,640 Speaker 2: we need to look at the political implications of doing this. Now. 868 00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:58,040 Speaker 2: That was the second time that this had happened. I 869 00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:00,920 Speaker 2: went back down to my Boston CTC said I cannot 870 00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,719 Speaker 2: put my people at harm's way just because we brief 871 00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:09,080 Speaker 2: well and capabilitton tiger on your mantle that you could 872 00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:11,279 Speaker 2: go to the politicians is we could do this, but 873 00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:13,520 Speaker 2: you're never going to implement it. I cannot do that 874 00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:14,520 Speaker 2: to my men and my women. 875 00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:16,799 Speaker 1: And that was the time for me to go, Yeah, 876 00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:21,839 Speaker 1: I understand, and walking away, you look back with fond 877 00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,960 Speaker 1: memories of your time there and what you achieved and 878 00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:25,759 Speaker 1: what you Yeah, you know. 879 00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,080 Speaker 2: And a lot of people don't there, especially when they 880 00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:30,719 Speaker 2: leave under that kind of circumstances, they tend to get bitter. 881 00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:34,399 Speaker 2: I actually, and I describe it in the book because 882 00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:35,880 Speaker 2: it was one of these things that God put in 883 00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:39,040 Speaker 2: my brain on how to survive this. I literally the 884 00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:42,080 Speaker 2: day that I retired, I walked in my house, I 885 00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:45,200 Speaker 2: got my favorite cigar, got a bottle of my favorite wine, 886 00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,840 Speaker 2: and sat outside. And my wife knew to leave me 887 00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:52,040 Speaker 2: alone because she knows me well enough that just let 888 00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:54,200 Speaker 2: them be. And I sat out there for two or 889 00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,200 Speaker 2: three hours, and I started from the day that I 890 00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:01,080 Speaker 2: started in the agency. I started recalling the things that 891 00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:03,680 Speaker 2: happen and the people that I dealt with, and in 892 00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:06,600 Speaker 2: my mind, every time there was a good op or 893 00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,520 Speaker 2: a good leader, that was a crystal marble that I 894 00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:13,520 Speaker 2: would put in one jar in my mind, the other 895 00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:17,799 Speaker 2: was a black ball of the bad experiences. I would 896 00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,600 Speaker 2: put that in the toilet. That was my mental exercise 897 00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:22,960 Speaker 2: until I drank the whole bottle of wine and smoked 898 00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:26,120 Speaker 2: the whole cigar, and I can look at it right here. 899 00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:28,360 Speaker 2: I still have that jar full of marbles. I actually 900 00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,440 Speaker 2: went out later and bought a jar and put marbles 901 00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:34,120 Speaker 2: in it, clear marbles, to remind me that I could 902 00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:38,160 Speaker 2: not afford to be bitter with a career that expanded 903 00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:41,600 Speaker 2: over twenty four years, and that I know the successes 904 00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:44,520 Speaker 2: that we had and the colleagues, the friends that I made. 905 00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:46,600 Speaker 2: That when you know, when you go in harms way 906 00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:49,360 Speaker 2: with somebody, there's a bonding that doesn't come out of 907 00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,759 Speaker 2: the you know, the it's just different. And I could 908 00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:56,640 Speaker 2: not afford to throw out twenty four years for a 909 00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:57,640 Speaker 2: few black marbles. 910 00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:01,560 Speaker 1: If you get my drift, so full credit to you there, Rick. 911 00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:05,080 Speaker 1: It saddens me, and obviously I speak to a lot 912 00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:09,279 Speaker 1: of ex law enforcement military types on here and the 913 00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:12,440 Speaker 1: ones that look back with fond memories. The way to 914 00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:14,480 Speaker 1: get it. I look back at every single day I 915 00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:16,680 Speaker 1: had in the cops. I enjoyed it. There were some 916 00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,200 Speaker 1: bad things, yeah, but there's bad things in every way. 917 00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:22,600 Speaker 1: The fact that you can look at your career it 918 00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,920 Speaker 1: is so good for your own soul, isn't it. How 919 00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:28,040 Speaker 1: would you be if you walk away and you just 920 00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:31,120 Speaker 1: bitter and and that just burns inside you. So full 921 00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:33,680 Speaker 1: credit to you. But I like the marble idea. 922 00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:36,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, like I said, I literally I can see it 923 00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:39,279 Speaker 2: from here. I still have it there, just a nice 924 00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,000 Speaker 2: reminder what I'm having a bad day or something to 925 00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:44,359 Speaker 2: go look at that, and you go, I've had worse 926 00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:46,280 Speaker 2: and I've had better, and you march. 927 00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:48,839 Speaker 1: On, you know, and your life for you now, your 928 00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:51,680 Speaker 1: wife is glad you're at home or does she want 929 00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:53,239 Speaker 1: to send you back out in the field to get 930 00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:53,600 Speaker 1: some time? 931 00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:56,680 Speaker 2: And I think sometimes she said, you know, there was 932 00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:58,439 Speaker 2: a time there where she would have kind of aren't 933 00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,560 Speaker 2: you going teddy y somewhere because we'll spend the time, 934 00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:03,600 Speaker 2: you know, that kind of thing. But no, you know, 935 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:05,759 Speaker 2: we have we have a very strong relationship. We do 936 00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,960 Speaker 2: a lot of things together. And I'm at this stage 937 00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:11,360 Speaker 2: in my life where where I really just want to 938 00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:15,280 Speaker 2: spend my time on you know, my my family, my friends. 939 00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:19,800 Speaker 2: I'm at that age where there isn't a month that 940 00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:22,360 Speaker 2: I don't lose a colleague or a friend, you know, 941 00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:26,759 Speaker 2: either either through you know, operational attrition or or you know, 942 00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:30,920 Speaker 2: through illnesses. And it's the old. Hey. You know, the 943 00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:34,239 Speaker 2: only day that you own is today. So we try 944 00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,200 Speaker 2: to make the best of it. We take vacations, we 945 00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:41,120 Speaker 2: spoil our grandkids, and you know, live live as best 946 00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:45,879 Speaker 2: as we can. That that said, if I was called 947 00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:49,759 Speaker 2: upon to help tomorrow, I would I cannot but say 948 00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:51,680 Speaker 2: no to this. To my country, I couldn't do it. 949 00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:54,840 Speaker 1: You've you've still got that each I can say it, 950 00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:56,719 Speaker 1: I can say say it in if I say it 951 00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,239 Speaker 1: in your time. But look, you're looking good. I also 952 00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:02,440 Speaker 1: heard you say you love jumping on the motorbike or 953 00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:04,080 Speaker 1: jumping on the horse, and that gives you a bit 954 00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:08,680 Speaker 1: of fun and fun and freedom. So look, I just 955 00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:11,480 Speaker 1: want to thank you for coming on. I've enjoyed the 956 00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:15,919 Speaker 1: chat obviously, and more importantly thanking you for the work 957 00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:18,879 Speaker 1: that you've done. I know the type of sacrifices people 958 00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:21,560 Speaker 1: like you make to keep the world a safer place, 959 00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:24,080 Speaker 1: and you come under criticism and everyone's got an opinion 960 00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:28,719 Speaker 1: on different things. But yeah, you've demonstrated you've risen through 961 00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:31,080 Speaker 1: all that and you've done some good. So full credit 962 00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:31,279 Speaker 1: to you. 963 00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:33,239 Speaker 2: Thank you very much. I mean so lot to me 964 00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:35,319 Speaker 2: coming from a guy like you, that means so light. 965 00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:38,080 Speaker 1: I appreciate it, appreciate it, and I just want to 966 00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:39,839 Speaker 1: give a shout out to your book that we can 967 00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:43,839 Speaker 1: see on your right shoulder, Black Ops, Rick Prade. I'm 968 00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,200 Speaker 1: telling you, if you want to get a sense of 969 00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:49,279 Speaker 1: the world, get yourself that book. I read a lot 970 00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,840 Speaker 1: of books in lead ups to getting people on the podcast, 971 00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:55,200 Speaker 1: and you just took me deep into that world. I 972 00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:58,960 Speaker 1: think you're slightly crazy too. Rick got to say your 973 00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:01,920 Speaker 1: first apparliament in Honduras. But full credit to. 974 00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:04,440 Speaker 2: You, Thank you very much. Like I said, I've lived 975 00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:07,759 Speaker 2: a blessed life. Cheers, jeers. Appreciate it.