1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:05,520 Speaker 1: We've had Narco coffee where coffee grains have been opened 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: up and cocaine inserted. 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 2: Into the individual grains. 4 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:12,559 Speaker 1: Individual grains. 5 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 2: We're talking with coffee beans. You mean nothing like that, actually, 6 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 2: just they're putting cocaine. 7 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: Into the beans, not into a packet. 8 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 3: Hey there, Fiona here. Today we're bringing another bonus episode 9 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 3: from Cocaine Inc. My colleague Stephen Drill sat down with 10 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 3: freelance journalist Richard McColl who's based out in Columbia. Richard 11 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 3: had listened to our series and got in touch with Stephen. 12 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 3: The two got chatting about Stephen's reporting from Columbia for 13 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 3: our series, and Stephen felt it would be great for 14 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 3: you to hear some of Richard's insights. So from The Times, 15 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:59,959 Speaker 3: The Sunday Times and News Corp Australia, this is Cocaine Ink, 16 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 3: a bonus episode Columbia Seized and Stolen Again. 17 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 2: Richard McColl is a British journalist who's lived in Columbia 18 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 2: for two decades. For this interview, Richard spoke with me 19 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 2: from a town called Mompos, which is about five hours 20 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 2: drive south of Cardahenia. That's the port city I visited 21 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 2: in episode three, where authorities are seizing rooms full of 22 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 2: cocaine bricks. Richard has reported and worked across South America 23 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 2: and knows the continent inside out. I started our conversation 24 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 2: by asking him about life as a reporter in the 25 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 2: country that's one of the world's main cocaine producers. 26 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: I kind of got wary of always opening each introductory 27 00:01:55,080 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: paragraph with Columbia so long known for being the capital 28 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: of narco terrorism and Escobar, that I wanted to get 29 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: further into the story about Colombia rather than just headlines. 30 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: But you know, we have been in a civil conflict 31 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:24,799 Speaker 1: in Colombia technically since nineteen sixty four, and this all 32 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:30,639 Speaker 1: feeds into what is going on today and what creates 33 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 1: and a continuation of that, I would say, a Colombian 34 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: tragedy of such violence and suffering. 35 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 2: Well, can you give us a fifty year history in 36 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 2: perhaps five minutes? Can you give us some of the 37 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 2: main players now and how that came about? I know 38 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:54,079 Speaker 2: there's fark, which is the revolutionaries in Colombia. Who are 39 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 2: they and why were they so entrenched. 40 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: At nineteen sixty four? At the Cold War? There are 41 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: revolutionary groups in much of South America and Columbia is 42 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:10,920 Speaker 1: no different. Columbia is a country where it is not equal, 43 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: the wealth is concentrated, and what starts as an uprising 44 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: and then consolidates as guerrilla warfare against the state. So 45 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: you have the FARK, that's the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Columbia, 46 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: left wing revolutionary group, and they started in the nineteen sixties. 47 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: You have the el N, the National Liberation Army, and 48 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: then you have half a dozen other little groups. The 49 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: FARK was of course the biggest group and over time 50 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: committed heinous atrocities as the ELN did, human rights abuses, 51 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: genocide and so on. Kidnapping was rife. These groups controlled 52 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: much of rural Columbia because of course there was no development, 53 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: no communication, no access to these parts of Columbia. And 54 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 1: so when we talk about access, the Colombian government have 55 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: never seen the real need to invest in a like 56 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: a significant highway system or system of transport. And so 57 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: what you get are people who live in these isolated areas, 58 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: usually small holders and farmers, hoping to sell their products 59 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,039 Speaker 1: at a highway or at a market nearby, and it 60 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: can take them up to eight hours to get to 61 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 1: a road. And so you've got this situation where it's 62 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: an underclass that has been overlooked since Columbia has been 63 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: a country that leads us all the way up to 64 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: the Peace of Cords of twenty sixteen signed with the 65 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: Fuck Gorillas. And that's one of the major major issues 66 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: and why the con inflict itself continues to this day, 67 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 1: is that there has been no land reform. 68 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 2: So the divide between rich and poor is so extreme 69 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 2: that it was fertile ground for communism and communist groups 70 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 2: and these revolutionary groups. But also I will imagine fertile 71 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 2: ground for cocaine cartels, because if they came in and said, hey, 72 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 2: you can grow coca plants for us, that's one of 73 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 2: the few options they have. So you've got this fertile ground, 74 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 2: this inequality, and it can be exploited by people who 75 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 2: want to sell drugs. 76 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: And that's it, isn't it. It's the cartels, the gorilla groups, 77 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: newly formed criminal gangs. These are all the people that 78 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 1: get out to these distant areas and pay the farmers 79 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: for their product. The state isn't getting out there to 80 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: help them sell their milk or their crops. 81 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 2: Can you explain the role of the US and the 82 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 2: West in Cologne. Yeah, because we've got the communist groups. 83 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 2: And you said that this dispute, this war started in 84 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,720 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty four. Now that's from my limited memory, that's 85 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 2: the Vietnam War. So you have Americans and Australians going 86 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 2: to Vietnam and spilling blood there to try and fight communism. 87 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 2: Did they get involved in Columbia the Americans. 88 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,919 Speaker 1: In a short answer, yes, in the sixties, there was 89 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: that great fear of the red tide of communism extending 90 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: up through Latin America and then across the Rio Grande 91 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: to the US. So there was an effort, but not 92 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: as much as you had, sort of like in Vietnam, 93 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: but there was an effort. The US involvement increases in 94 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies with the marijuana boom, but at the 95 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 1: same time Colombia has been seen as the most stable 96 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: democracy despite everything in South America. And then you get 97 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: the cocaine trade coming in, and then we're looking at 98 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: the war on drugs and that's where the real money 99 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: comes in. We're looking at Nixon, and we're looking at fumigation, 100 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: We're looking at US advisors on the ground. I've been 101 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: down to some of these areas, you know, with the 102 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: Colombian military. And there are these strange buildings built on 103 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: the side of the Colombian bases that we know are 104 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: used by US military, but they're there in advisory This 105 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: is today advisory capacities. And they don't wear uniforms. But 106 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: as soon as you start seeing my best expression is 107 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: corn fed white boys out there in the Columbia nowhere, 108 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: dressed in checkered shirts and jeans and not speaking Spanish. 109 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: These aren't, you know, Mormon settlers. These are military advisors. 110 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 2: You talked about fumigational aerial spraying of coca plants. Now 111 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 2: have you gone through after seen where the coca plants 112 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 2: were sort of weak killed. 113 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: Yes, Now, the fumigation it works to an extent, doesn't it. 114 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: But it is a poison and there are enough studies 115 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: out there to show that the after effects for generations 116 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: on the jungle, on the natural environment, and then of 117 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: course in the food chain and affecting the people that 118 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 1: live in these areas. And then of course it leaves 119 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: the ground baron if you're going to try and grow 120 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: something else by the same measure, the coca plant does 121 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: grow back, and that it was one of the key 122 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 1: key issues in the peace dialogues was the agreement was 123 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: built around stopping the aerial fumigation of coca crops, and 124 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: that was agreed to very quickly by the government of 125 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: President Santos, who was the president in at the time. 126 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 1: The subsequent government, so the last one here in Colombia, 127 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: President Doulque, they really wanted to reintroduce it, but fortunately 128 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: there was just such a national outcry and I think 129 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:19,679 Speaker 1: a constitutional court ruled it as illegal because of the 130 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: effects it has on local communities. 131 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 2: Is that driven by the people on the ground, Because 132 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 2: for me, if I was a cartel, I'd be pretty 133 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 2: happy that you could no longer humigate plants from the air. 134 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:36,079 Speaker 2: If you look at it from when that aerial sprang 135 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,319 Speaker 2: with banned, the actual amount of plants that have grown 136 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 2: now is almost double, if not tripled, in the past 137 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 2: of the sever eight years. 138 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 1: I mean, that's the million dollar or billion dollar question, 139 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: isn't it. When fumigation began, the cartels and the people 140 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: growing or the cartels buying the coca crops, they started 141 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: moving their cultivations and also making them smaller cultivations so 142 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: very difficult to fumigate. And of course cultivations were then 143 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: placed in extreme geography, so like a mountainsides and so on. 144 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,719 Speaker 1: Again even more difficult to fumigate because you've got to 145 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:22,599 Speaker 1: get a pilot in there to make top gun style maneuvers. 146 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: And then the other thing they did is they moved 147 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: their small cultivations into national parks. And it's illegal to 148 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: fumigate national parks as well, So the coca trade will 149 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 1: find a way. It's too economically viable, the coca trade 150 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: finds a way. 151 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 2: So like that tree that's at the front of your hotel, 152 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 2: with me, the dog can weigh on it, that you 153 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 2: can conquering on it, you can cut it down, it'll 154 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 2: still come back. What about the border. We've talked about 155 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 2: why coca plants grow so well, but there's another part 156 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 2: of the coqua trade and cocaine trade that is also 157 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 2: equally important. That's the border with Venezuela. Because when I 158 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 2: was in Colombia, it was pointed out to me regularly 159 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 2: said any homeless people, they're not Colombian. Now that may 160 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 2: have been national pride, but I think there's a fair 161 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,319 Speaker 2: point to it. There are so many people in Colombia 162 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 2: who are from Venezuela and that's such a basket case 163 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 2: that people are willing to go out there. I mean 164 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 2: they're willing to walk all the way to the US 165 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 2: border for goodness sake. So how big is that border 166 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 2: between Columbia and Venezuela. 167 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: It's huge. It runs from the Quahereda Pinonsula, so that's 168 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: right up in the northeast of Colombia all the way 169 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: down into the bottom near to Brazil. I mean it 170 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: runs the wholeway. A lot of it is only the 171 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: border areas are only accessible by river ways, and so 172 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: the Columbia Navy does not plice them as much. So again, 173 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 1: these are cocaine high ways in a small area beside 174 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: the border city of Kukuda in Colombia. I know for 175 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: a fact that in a space of a couple of 176 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 1: kilometers there are more than twenty prochas, that's illegal crossing 177 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: points from the Venezuela and Columbia border to get people across. 178 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 2: We're talking less than every hundred meters seventy five meters. 179 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: One of them will be controlled by a gorilla group, 180 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: another one will be controlled by a newly formed illegal gang. 181 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 1: And so you pay a wage, a small fee to 182 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:42,679 Speaker 1: get through and you're through the authorities or the military 183 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: in Venezuela get their cut. Let's be entirely honest. Corruption 184 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: pervades all levels of society, not only in this region. 185 00:12:54,920 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: But let's just look at Venezuela, and that allows the 186 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,559 Speaker 1: coca paste, the cocaine product, to get all the way 187 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: out to the ports in Venezuela and to leave. And 188 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: this is what has created a lot of upturning violence 189 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 1: in Jamaica because cocaine that comes out of Venezuela, a 190 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: lot of it goes up via Haiti. But there's also 191 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: another border. Let's look at the southern border with Ecuador. 192 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 1: And Ecuador has been in the news in the last 193 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: few months because it was seen as the country that 194 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 1: defied all odds as being a peaceful country sandwiched between 195 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:39,119 Speaker 1: the two major coca producing countries of Peru and Colombia. 196 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: It wasn't majorly affected by the violence. It was only 197 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:51,080 Speaker 1: seen as a transshipment point and as a strange consequence 198 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: of the Piece accords in Colombia that took two thirds 199 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 1: of the fark gorillas out of the equation. Well, criminal 200 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: groups in Ecuador, funded in part by Albanian groups, took 201 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: over the transshipment from the fuck through Ecuador using major violence, 202 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: and that's what led to Ecuador being in the situation 203 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: that it is now. The port of guya Kill on 204 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: Ecuador's coast is known as one of the major transshipment 205 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: ports for cocaine. A lot of it arrives at the 206 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 1: port of Rotterdam, which of course you covered in the podcast, 207 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: and out of Venezuela. Several ports going up through the Caribbean, 208 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: and of course we do have cocaine that goes straight 209 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: across to Africa and then up into Europe. This is 210 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: a globalized economy in Ecuador. 211 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 2: Now we've seen gangs go and take over a live 212 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 2: television studio in the past twelve months. They actually took 213 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 2: on on air one of the major morning shows and 214 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 2: we're threatening to shude people on there. We've had a 215 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 2: political assassination one of their main political leaders in the 216 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 2: past twelve months, where it was once before relatively in 217 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 2: comparison quite stable, I mean. And this is the as 218 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 2: you say, the globalization of the drug traders, because once 219 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 2: you get to that point, how do you stop it? 220 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 2: And I think that's the hard thing as well. I've 221 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,479 Speaker 2: spoken to a lot of police. Police have to have meetings, 222 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 2: they talk about things. They have to have days off, 223 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 2: they've got sick days, they've got days where they stop. 224 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 2: When one of their sovello officers have died and they 225 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 2: actually on them, they might have a funeral. The criminal 226 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 2: gangs don't do that. If they want to do something differently, 227 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 2: they change in five seconds. If they don't like their rival, 228 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 2: they shoot them. They don't stop to bury somebody. They 229 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 2: just keep going. Life to them isn't worth anything. So 230 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 2: you're competing with people who just don't care. And that's 231 00:15:57,760 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 2: a really imbalanced equation. 232 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 1: Policeman has a family, he wants to save his life. 233 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: He does not earn enough money to put his life 234 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: on the line. And not earning enough money and not 235 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: being able to make ends meet and seeing his friends 236 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: die also makes people entirely corruptible. And I'm not saying 237 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: that the police force is one hundred percent corrupt, but 238 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: of course there are corrupt actors in every level and 239 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: that's a real issue. And as we've talked about the 240 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: creativity of the economic model of the cocaine trade, we've 241 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: had Narco bananas coming out of Santa Marta that's on 242 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: the Caribbean coast, So cocaine being packed inside bananas and 243 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: packed inside boxes, and it's a preferred method of getting 244 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: cocaine on big ships over to Europe because it's a 245 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: perishable and so it needs to be fast tracked through 246 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: and so people it's easier for people to look the 247 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:09,679 Speaker 1: other way. We've had Narco coffee where coffee grains have 248 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: been opened up and cocaine inserted into them, individual grains, 249 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: individual grains. 250 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 2: Which the coffee beans, you mean, nothing like that, actual 251 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:21,880 Speaker 2: just they're putting. 252 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 1: Cocaine into the beans, not into a packet. 253 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 2: Just coming back to on poss where you are now, 254 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 2: that's about four or five hours from Cardagena. Can you 255 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 2: tell us about when some of the cocaine was actually seen? 256 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,239 Speaker 2: So even when the police and the authorities do a 257 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 2: good job in Columbia, how hard is it? What happened 258 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 2: when the police seized a fair amount of cocaine and 259 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 2: was in Cardagenia? What happened? 260 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, there was there was a big seizure some years ago, 261 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: a container full of cocaine and the authorities got it 262 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 1: and so it was being held at the port under 263 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: police watch. Up there in Kurtahena and it was tons. Well, 264 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 1: the cartel came in, they knew the hour, or they 265 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: paid people off to walk away. There was only one 266 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 1: person guarding it when they came up. Whoever that was 267 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 1: the poor man lost his life. They killed him, stole 268 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: the product back, put it into several smaller trucks and 269 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: vehicles and drove it south over roads. The road checkpoints 270 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,880 Speaker 1: were paid off beforehand, because we have checkpoints. This is Columbia. 271 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: We're still a nation in conflict. There are checkpoints. They 272 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:34,959 Speaker 1: went off to their lunchtime at these times, you know, 273 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 1: the trucks would go through. And then when you used 274 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: to come down to near to where Montboss is, we 275 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 1: didn't have any bridges. We now have bridges. They've been built. 276 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 1: We just had and I'm sure you have them in 277 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: Australia and i know i've seen them in the US. 278 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: Just sort of like barges, almost like homemade barges where 279 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 1: your truck drives up onto it and they could almost 280 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 1: have just got an outboorn outboard motor and a punt 281 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: and they just sort of push it a cross a 282 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: river and then you drive off again. Well, the trucks 283 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: came up, they drove onto the barges, and they paid 284 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: every single one of these boat drivers to go home 285 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: for the day, so they paid them a day's wage 286 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: and more, and they left all of the barges on 287 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: the other side of the river. So the military chasing 288 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 1: this product suddenly couldn't get across the river, so they 289 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 1: were stuck. The military was stuck on one side of 290 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 1: the river. And then out here it's huge farms, huge areas, 291 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: and for the government to then sort of, let's say, 292 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:41,199 Speaker 1: deploy the airplanes or radars or what have you, this 293 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: takes time. You don't just scramble them. So they just 294 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: drove these trucks off into farms, into warehouses and hid 295 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: them there until the noise the dust settles, and then 296 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,360 Speaker 1: were able to take it back up to whichever port. 297 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 2: It's kind of that was stolen. This was cocaine that 298 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 2: was seized by the police. It's gone to Calahelia, and 299 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 2: then it's been taken back and then it still got out. 300 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 2: It raises the other question, which we've talked a little 301 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 2: bit about in the podcast. Not a great deal, but 302 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 2: we have had some questions about it. In our bonus episode, 303 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 2: listeners got in touch with questions and one thing that 304 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 2: came up a lot was legalization. Basically, if we were 305 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 2: to legalize cocaine, would that be the silver bullet to 306 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 2: stop all the bloodshed associated with the trade. Where do 307 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 2: you say on this? 308 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 1: It's the question I asked myself all the time as 309 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: a father, all I think about, obviously, in this perspective, 310 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: my two kids. It would be hard for me to 311 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: imagine them going down to a cafe. Oh Dad, we're 312 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: just going to do a couple of lines at the 313 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 1: same time. All of the offcuts of cocaine, so like 314 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: the low quality stuff that are down and out smoke here, 315 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: like a type of crack that can't be legalized. We 316 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: had an area of bullet now known as the Bronx, 317 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 1: which was four square blocks of anything goes and the 318 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: police just kind of had a ring round it to 319 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: make sure that nothing came out of there. I know 320 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: that a local politician, a left wing politician, has talked 321 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: about why doesn't the government buy all of the coca 322 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: the coca plants for traditional things to use it in 323 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: fabrics and fibers, But that would never pick up the 324 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: slack of the money. So I tend to veer towards 325 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: some sort of regulation. It needs to be an entirely 326 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: international agreement because if the US aren't on board, then 327 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: it just collapses completely. 328 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:48,880 Speaker 2: Well, this is the thing because I spoke to someone 329 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 2: in Columbia about and asked them the same question, and 330 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 2: I said, well, if they did that, if we go 331 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 2: alone and say right, we're going to legalize or we're 332 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,679 Speaker 2: going to regulate cocaine, America can just dumb Columbia out 333 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 2: of the banking system. Yeah, and they would because if 334 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 2: you get they could lose all the support and the 335 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 2: international support. That happened. So it has to be a 336 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 2: worldwide agreement. But even if it was legalized, what's to 337 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 2: stop it being grown in the next field. The government 338 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,640 Speaker 2: buys all the cocaine and then well that's just from 339 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 2: Field A. They can go to Field dead and put 340 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 2: it there and make a stronger version. 341 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: There isn't There was an experience I had on the 342 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: Colombian Pacific coast where a whole society was entirely altered 343 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: by the cocaine trade. And this is not a single case. 344 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 1: This is other cases as well. Is that traditionally the 345 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 1: communities on the Pacific coast, they're fishermen. There are small 346 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: airports near these towns, they sell the fish to buyers 347 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: that then sort of let's say fly them in to 348 00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: meddie In for the fish markets or Buda Da. But 349 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: they were getting more money by finding the let's say, 350 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: those bundles of cocaine thrown overboard when the Colombian navy 351 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: would come along and find the Narco subs, so the 352 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 1: Narco submarines or vast boats shipping north to Central America. 353 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 1: They were getting more money from that because they would 354 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: then get an anomymous number to call or send a 355 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: message to with obviously a code to say that they'd 356 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: found a bundle of cocaine, and the cartel themselves would 357 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: buy it back from them. So you'd see people living 358 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:40,239 Speaker 1: in abject poverty fishermen, but suddenly they had, you know, 359 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: fifty inch TVs and a sound system to rival a nightclub, 360 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:48,199 Speaker 1: because that's where the money got spent. But this changed 361 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: society because the airplanes going to medi Inn or Borgata 362 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,959 Speaker 1: with the fresh fish were no longer going with the 363 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 1: fresh fish. When they were to go many end back 364 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,919 Speaker 1: to these towns. Normally they would take things to stock 365 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: up the pharmacies. Well, now the planes weren't traveling because 366 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 1: they weren't returning with anything, so that the pharmacies were 367 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:17,679 Speaker 1: running out of the medicines, and you started seeing people 368 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: like the schizophrenics wandering around town because they weren't getting 369 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 1: their medicines. And at the same time, women the traditional 370 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 1: communities got tired of never having any fish to prepare 371 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: for their families. So the whole society flipped, whereas men 372 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: would go out looking for the bundles of cocaine thrown overboard, 373 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: and women would start fishing, which is not traditionally a 374 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 1: women's job, to ensure that the whole economic model once 375 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 1: again returned to how it was previously. I mean, there 376 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: are stories like this all over Columbia. There are parts 377 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: of the country where selling cocaine paste was legal tender, 378 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,880 Speaker 1: so when you had cocaine paste, you would pay your 379 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 1: doctor's visit with cocaine and then the doctor would then 380 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 1: sell it on to a cartel. And a great friend 381 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: of mine, who is a conflict photographer, has a book 382 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: where gorilla fighters would come into town and go to 383 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: the local brothel with cocaine pace and pay the women 384 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,119 Speaker 1: for their services in cocaine paste. And you can go 385 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 1: to these towns today and they will talk about it. 386 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, back before we actually had the Colombian peso, 387 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: this is how it's done. 388 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 2: So it was actually currency. It was like tinder. It 389 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 2: was legal tender in the way because there wasn't It 390 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 2: was such an isolated area that they. 391 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 1: Couldn't get these exact Yeah. 392 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 2: That's extraordinary. So what you're talking about there is development 393 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:59,160 Speaker 2: that would take not just years, but decades and decades 394 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 2: without corruption and decades with persistence. And that's really hard 395 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 2: because here in Sydney and here in Melbourne, there's just 396 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 2: so much demand for cocaine and it's almost laughed about 397 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 2: it. It's not even seen as a negative anymore. It's like 398 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 2: and it's almost like passing your joint. So I think 399 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 2: we've got a long way to go. There's no easy 400 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 2: answer to any of these problems. But that's I think 401 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,360 Speaker 2: in some ways why the podcast has been so worthwhile 402 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,719 Speaker 2: to do, because it is such a complex issue and 403 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 2: we are all playing a significant part in it. 404 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 1: It's yeah, I mean, as you say, it's decades, it's generations, 405 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:48,719 Speaker 1: and Columbia will always be tired with the stigma of 406 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:53,199 Speaker 1: this conflict, the stigma of Pablo Escobar, the stigma of 407 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:58,879 Speaker 1: being the number one coca cocaine pace producer. The government 408 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: will continually make bold declarations and statements about the seizure 409 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,400 Speaker 1: of coca. The cartails now have more than they know 410 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,719 Speaker 1: what to do with it. That's why coca seizures keep increasing. 411 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: But really does it actually even make a dent in 412 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: the cartel's profit? I mean, that's the big question. Well, 413 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 1: the prices largely remain the same with the cocaine market. 414 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 1: What has gone on is a there's a more pure 415 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: and more concentrated product out there now. 416 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,679 Speaker 2: The purity has gone up. That's the thing. People are 417 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 2: still using the same amount of cocaine, but instead of 418 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 2: getting twenty to sixty percent purity, which is what you 419 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,919 Speaker 2: get here on the streets of Sydney and Melbourne, it 420 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 2: goes up higher. And in some ways that can make 421 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,120 Speaker 2: it more addictive, because if you're getting better coke, then 422 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 2: you're going, this is great, I'll get more. And that's 423 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 2: so the market's always going to be in demand. One 424 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 2: thing that you mentioned, and something that I noticed in 425 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 2: my travels as well, was we were actually I was 426 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 2: with some police in Columbia in a hotel and there's 427 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 2: four of us that went up to the room and 428 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 2: then someone knocked on the door that were worried that 429 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 2: we were there and we're going to be in prostitutes 430 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 2: into the rooms. I mean, how b is the problem 431 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 2: or the industry of prostitution and also how willing or 432 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 2: are these women doing this by choice or or is 433 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 2: it a little bit more sinister than that. 434 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:37,680 Speaker 1: Well, prostitution is legal in Colombia, but the pimping, so 435 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 1: anyone as an in between in business is illegal. But 436 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 1: prostitution is a massive, massive industry. There is a huge 437 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: hangover from the let's say the heady days of the 438 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: Narco cartels, the opulence of these narco cartels where we're 439 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: very much seen as objects and prizes for the cartels. 440 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 1: When you have a society where it takes I think 441 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: it was statistically it's thirteen or fifteen generations to pull 442 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 1: yourself out of poverty. You're always going to get those 443 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,719 Speaker 1: who look for anything to get out of a situation 444 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: that they were born into, and lots of I would say, 445 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: sexual tourists coming down from Europe North America to take 446 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: advantage of strat the strong dollar and pound, with people 447 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: from a very precarious background. 448 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 2: And this is an oblique way to sort of ended, 449 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 2: but it's also reality because if you think about it, 450 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 2: you've got people coming in with a strong dollar of 451 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 2: the strong pound to be sex tourists, and that, in 452 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 2: a way is a sort of paradigm what's happening with 453 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 2: the cocaine trade. The rich people in the West, in America, 454 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 2: in the UK, in Australia, they're using their adult they're 455 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 2: not directly going there to actually participate, but they are 456 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 2: changing the economy of Colombia and that's having real negative 457 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 2: effects on people. It is sort of just a real 458 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 2: sad story of what's happened to a beautiful country. 459 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 1: Colombia is known for its amazing people, amazingly friendly society, 460 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: and every single family here, without exception, rich or poor, 461 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: has been affected at some level by the conflict and 462 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: the conflict which has been extended due to the cocaine 463 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: trade itself. 464 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 2: That's a good note to end on. Thanks so much, Richard, 465 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 2: and appreciate your time. 466 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: Thank you. 467 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 3: Cocaine Inc. Was a joint investigation from the Times, The 468 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 3: Sunday Times and News Corp Australia. The reporters were David Collins, 469 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 3: Steven Drill and Me Fiona Hamilton. The series was produced 470 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 3: by Sam Chanterassak. The executive producers were Will Row and 471 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 3: Dan Box. Audio production and editing on this episode is 472 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 3: by Martin Peralta, with original music by Tom Virchell. And 473 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 3: as always, thanks for listening. Do leave us a review, 474 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 3: a nice one ideally, and please get in touch if 475 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 3: you have any questions. Our email is in the description notes.