1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 1: Scammers are targeting Australians in new ways and using unsuspecting methods. 2 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: As a report from BDO, which is a company that 3 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: examines different means of scams and a whole range of 4 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: different things now, their latest Scam Culture Report shows AI 5 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: is on the increase in scamming us out of our 6 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: hard earned money. Although we've become better at detecting scams, 7 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: we've managed to save ourselves three million dollars across the 8 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: country in not being ripped off. It was eighty million 9 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: in the December quarter down to seventy seven million in 10 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 1: the March quarter, so we've become a little bit better 11 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 1: until maybe they've eased off. I'm not sure which it is. 12 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: Stan Gallo, Partner Forensic Services BDO on the line, stand 13 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: good Mining. 14 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 2: Good morning, Matthew. 15 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: Tell me about your latest report. What have you found? 16 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 2: Look overall, the Scam Culture Report is it's something we 17 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 2: run every quarter and as you mentioned, we did save 18 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 2: three million as a nation. Having said that, we still 19 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 2: lost seventy seven through about sixty seven thousand reports that 20 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 2: were lodged through scam whites, so we're still losing money 21 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:28,119 Speaker 2: and the key demographics for that are the fifty five 22 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 2: to sixty four and then the over sixty fives of 23 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 2: the key target at the moment. So they're people who 24 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 2: have or they're seen to have disposable funds, so they've 25 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,479 Speaker 2: got some money at the end of their working life 26 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,199 Speaker 2: or towards the end of their working life, and they're 27 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 2: probably less switched on to tech than most of their 28 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 2: younger counterparts. So they are emerging as a key target 29 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 2: market for scams. 30 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: What do we know about the future? AI is a 31 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: bit scary to a lot of people. You know, there's 32 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: good and bad in it, I suppose, But how is 33 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: that being used? 34 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 2: There's a couple of ways. So AI generally is being 35 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 2: used in terms of voice, so receiving a call from 36 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 2: someone you know or someone that you trust if they're 37 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 2: are a well known person. So you might have heard 38 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 2: before of the David Kosh kind of scams online or 39 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 2: these are more like a phone call or something like 40 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 2: that with a voice that you recognize. So AI is 41 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:33,639 Speaker 2: used being used to take excerpts of people's voice from 42 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 2: online or publicly abuve able information and then regenerate that 43 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 2: to be a coherent message. Now it's still at the 44 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 2: early stages of its evolution. But down the track, what 45 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 2: I can see happening is that you will receive a 46 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 2: call from a family member or you know, a son, daughter, 47 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 2: loved one who contacts you and says, hey, you know mum, dad, granddad, whatever, 48 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 2: I need money, and it'll sound like them. You'll think 49 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 2: it's them, and you'll transfer further money and it'll be 50 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 2: a scam going further AI. There's been a couple of 51 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 2: reported examples of dec fake video where it's being used 52 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 2: to generate veh course, to give that the scam that 53 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 2: extra credibility and make the victims believe it. 54 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: How do we protect ourselves stand from this? Is it 55 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: a matter if you get the call from you know, 56 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: either sun or daughter or whatever, do you need to 57 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: wring them back to make sure that it's legit or not? 58 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:32,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, you need to validate everything where it's unusual for 59 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 2: the person to be asking for money, and or if 60 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 2: the conversation talks turns to I can't talk, let's just text, 61 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 2: or you know I need funds or stuff, talking about 62 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 2: crypto auntser anything, You've got to double check that, and 63 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 2: that would be via an independent means. What some of 64 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 2: our people are doing as well is within so family members, 65 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 2: et cetera. You have a family safe word, so that 66 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 2: if you get a call from your sister or whatever 67 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 2: it may be, and they're asking for something, you ask 68 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 2: them what the what the safe word is, and if 69 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 2: it's AI, they're not going to know. So that'll give 70 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 2: you some clarity. Is the call may be questionable, but 71 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 2: at the very least you need to independently ring that 72 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 2: person even if they save my phone's broken, you can't 73 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 2: ring them anyway and see whether it's real or not. 74 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,359 Speaker 1: There's seventy seven million dollars you mentioned in sixty seven 75 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:30,039 Speaker 1: thousand reports. That's that's a bit over a grand per report, 76 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: isn't it. So we're losing what eleven twelve hundred dollars 77 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,280 Speaker 1: to scammers every time on average. And I'm sure there's 78 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: some big ones in there and little ones, but that's 79 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: you know, he's got eleven hundred spare bucks. 80 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 2: Oh sure, sure, And you're right there are some big ones. 81 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 2: You know. We have instances of some people losing their 82 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 2: entire life, I think. So they're superannuation they converted to 83 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 2: prepared currency and it's gone, or they in a self 84 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,799 Speaker 2: managed super funds are invested mortgages that sold the house. 85 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 2: In one case where we had one who was sold 86 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 2: the house and they're going to use the money to 87 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 2: fund the care of their early mother and then the 88 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 2: money with scams, so they lost at all. So it's 89 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 2: it can be significant for individuals at the very worst 90 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 2: at twelve hundred dollars and nobody can want to give 91 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 2: that away. But at the other end of the scale 92 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 2: can hurt tremendously where it'll impact your life significantly. 93 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 1: Absolutely, so you've got to be so careful. Arise in 94 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: remote access scams? What are they? What do we need 95 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 1: to look out for there? 96 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 2: Yes, so remote access scams are where you'll either get 97 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 2: a message or we have seen somewhere it's people at 98 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 2: the door. So a human element to this where either 99 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 2: you'll get a message to click on a link and 100 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 2: it could be a phone call that you receive saying hey, 101 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 2: I'm from Microsoft or the tax office or whatever it 102 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 2: is you need to I'll give you some instructions and 103 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 2: you do something on your machine and then if there's 104 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 2: a sake code or a pass code on your phone 105 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 2: or something, give that to me. We go and you 106 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 2: know I need to come in and fix your machine, 107 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,720 Speaker 2: or I'm from the ATO and I need to access 108 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 2: your account. We'll verify your account details, and then once 109 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:13,039 Speaker 2: they've remote access to your machine, they will will access 110 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 2: bank account details, et cetera. Because if you access the 111 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 2: victims machine and then process bank accounts, that will bypass 112 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 2: a lot of the bank's fraud controls. Because if we're 113 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 2: coming from a trusted machine that's done transactions before the 114 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 2: IP address, the computer will likely be recorded with the bank, 115 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 2: So if that same computer is being misused and transferring funds, 116 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 2: it's less likely that the bank will pick it up. 117 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 2: So you need to be really cautious. And any legitimate 118 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 2: organization will never ask for the verification code off your 119 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 2: phone or the password to your accounts. They will always 120 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 2: contact you and talk to you. But if you have 121 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 2: any doubts at all or they start asking those sorts 122 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 2: of questions again, hang up and go to the real 123 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 2: independently ring the organization. Someone's at the door, you do 124 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 2: not let them access your computer at all. No one 125 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 2: will ever ask you. 126 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: To do that. Yeah, well that's exactly right. Yeah, there's 127 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: no reason for anyone at your door saying I'm here 128 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: to look at your computer for goodness sake. 129 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 2: Correct. 130 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was talking to a man earlier this year 131 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: on the radio here on five Double A who was 132 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: scammed tens of thousands of dollars. And the way they 133 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: got him, he said, it came up on his phone. 134 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: The idea was, I think from memory now he said 135 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: it was A in Z bank. Yeah, it really wasn't 136 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: the A and Z bank, but he banked with the 137 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: A and Z And so he's seen that, he's answered 138 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: the phone. They've said the usual kind of scam thing. Look, 139 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: we think your accounts are in danger. We need you 140 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: to urgently transfer money to this account. So he's in 141 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: the middle of a shopping center. He's seen the name 142 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: of the bank come up. He's panicked, and he's done 143 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: what they've and then he's thought about it, and of 144 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: course it's too late to stop the forty odd thousand 145 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: dollars that he's trans third. So they can get you, 146 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: can't they If you're just vulnerable, they get you just 147 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: that moment when you're flat out, you're panicked, you're busy, 148 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: your stress, whatever, and suddenly you're a few grand or 149 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: whatever out of pocket. 150 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 2: Yes, Indeed, there's always a common red flag is there's 151 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 2: that sense of urgency. You need to do this now, 152 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 2: you need to take action now. And if that's the case, 153 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 2: I would always say stop. The world's not going to 154 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 2: end if you don't listen to somebody who you don't 155 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 2: know telling you to take immediate action. Think about what 156 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 2: it is they're asking, and then act. And that might 157 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 2: be independent verification. It is common. We've seen spooping, which 158 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 2: is what you're talking about there, where the number appears 159 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 2: to be from the aims, or it's a text message 160 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 2: or a phone number that comes up is not real, 161 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 2: but it's in the same line of previous messages you've got, 162 00:08:52,679 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 2: or something along those lines, where it's the scammers serting 163 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 2: themselves into that process, so you can again just to 164 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 2: try and convince you that it's legitimate, when in actual factor, 165 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 2: of course, it's not. 166 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: Do we have technology to stop that happening, to stop 167 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: them masking a number or stop them inserting themselves into 168 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: text messages that may have been legitimately from your bank 169 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: or whoever it is, and suddenly you've got one in 170 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: that same stream, on that same page, but it's from 171 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: a scammer. Can we can that not be stopped? 172 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:35,559 Speaker 2: In this day and age, there is some the banks 173 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 2: are getting increasingly more sophisticated at picking up unusual transactions 174 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 2: through analytics and indeed AI. But there was also a 175 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 2: federal government issued some controls in relation to the reduction 176 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 2: of scams and via text message and phone calls, which 177 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 2: has reduced it by several minion in the last year alone. 178 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 2: So there are actions being taken by organizations to try 179 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 2: and reduce the number of scam attacks that are occurring. 180 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 1: Okay, So it's the important thing though, is to be 181 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: aware and think twice as you say stop and if 182 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,319 Speaker 1: in doubt, independently look up the number of the organization 183 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: and call them yourself. 184 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 2: Always independently verify if someone's asking for money, unless it's 185 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 2: particularly if it's unexpected, then always independently verify and you 186 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 2: can't go too far wrong. 187 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: Is there any hope of ever getting money back if 188 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: you've been scammed? 189 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 2: Highly unlikely. Generally, there has been a couple of recent 190 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 2: cases where the money was still in Australia and indeed 191 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 2: law enforcement's been able to prosecute some people. But the 192 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,199 Speaker 2: brutal reality of it is is if you lose money 193 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 2: to a scam, the chances of recovery are very very slim. 194 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 2: It's very quickly processed through what they call mule accounts 195 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 2: in Australia and then sent off overseas. Once it's overseas, 196 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 2: it's gone, and the likelihood of recovery is small. There 197 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 2: it does give thought to There is a more recent 198 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 2: in city of scam and it's commonly referred to as 199 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 2: double dipping, where if a person's been successfully scammed, their 200 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 2: name does the rounds and they may be contacted again 201 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 2: by someone who purporting to be law enforcement or someone 202 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 2: who government agency saying I can get your money back. 203 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 2: We understand that you lost the money to a scam. 204 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 2: We can assist you we've had some real success and 205 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 2: there's an upfront payment or some other costs to it, 206 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 2: and it's another scam. Like I said, the reality of 207 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 2: recovery is very very small. 208 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,559 Speaker 1: So they know other scammers know, or it's the same scammers. 209 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 2: We've had both so in some cases it's the same scammers, 210 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 2: they just pass you on to a different member of 211 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 2: the group. And other cases, the list of successful scams, 212 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 2: so of the scessful victims has been on sold to 213 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:04,079 Speaker 2: a second set of scammers and then they come back 214 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:05,319 Speaker 2: for a second bride of the cherry. 215 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: There's words that I can't use on radio to describe them, but. 216 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, insidious, it really is. And as I say that, 217 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,559 Speaker 2: our senior people who are at the stage where they're 218 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 2: starting to think about relaxing and enjoying life a hot 219 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 2: target for these scammers, so they really need to be 220 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:25,559 Speaker 2: be wary of these things. 221 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: Absolutely stand fascinating discussion. Thank you for your time. 222 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 2: You're welcome. 223 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: Stan Gallo there Partner Forensic Services at BDO.