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Speaker 1: Approach production and the way I avoided I think the

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Speaker 1: conflict or getting myself into into trouble was people knew

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Speaker 1: where I stood. You know, they knew I was a

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Speaker 1: stand up type of person. You don't ask for favors

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Speaker 1: and you know, you don't cross the line. And I'm

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Speaker 1: comfortable with the way I navigated my way through that.

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Speaker 1: I think the fact that I had people in my family,

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Speaker 1: friends and all that that had been on the other

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Speaker 1: side made me a better policeman because I understood understood

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Speaker 1: the world to a degree, and I think it think

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Speaker 1: it helped. So I wasn't so judgmental. We were you

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Speaker 1: nervous on your first take? Yeah, yeah, you're quite You're

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Speaker 1: pathetic as in, well, I'm I don't know. Others might

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Speaker 1: say no, but you had no idea what you're doing.

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Speaker 1: They do a good job. Down at the academy. You're

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Speaker 1: learning a lot of different skills. You know, you're learning law,

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Speaker 1: you're learning just the powers that you've got, how to

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Speaker 1: use a gun, how to drive a car, like all

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Speaker 1: sorts of things. So there's a lot going on in

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Speaker 1: your little mind's ticking over, but you're not prepared, and

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Speaker 1: that the first day you get out there. My first arrest,

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Speaker 1: and it as it gave me a reputation and undeserved reputation.

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Speaker 1: And it's quite funny, the reputation. I had no idea

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Speaker 1: what I was doing, because when I joined the cops, you'

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Speaker 1: could been in the police for a month or so

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Speaker 1: and you might be the senior person on the car.

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Speaker 1: It was really there's two probation there. It constables driving around.

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Speaker 1: It was a blind leading the blind, literally, And I

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Speaker 1: remember I got a job and this was I reckon

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Speaker 1: in the first month, was the first couple of months

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Speaker 1: I was in the cops, and someone had wait for it.

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Speaker 1: This is a hernius offense. Not paid for his railway

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Speaker 1: ticket and he jumped the thing. I'm this young. Okay,

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Speaker 1: well that's technically that's his breach. He breached the law.

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Speaker 1: I went up to his place, made some inquiries, started

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Speaker 1: my little career as an investigator, and oh that sounds

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Speaker 1: like such and such, such and such. Tracked him down

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Speaker 1: to a place, went to his place and arrested him. Now,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't arresting him to be a smarter, so I thought, well,

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Speaker 1: he's committed an offense. I've identified the offense. I'm therefore

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Speaker 1: going to arrest him. You've got a discretionary power where

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Speaker 1: a ticket could have been issued in those circumstances. But

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Speaker 1: the bloke was a local shithead that the cop had

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Speaker 1: been causing dramas all over the place unbeknown to me

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Speaker 1: when I bought him back, and you're signing, what have

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Speaker 1: you arrested him for? And I gave for fail of

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Speaker 1: a rail fair or whatever it was, and that'll show

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Speaker 1: him next time. I'm this tough guy, and I wasn't

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Speaker 1: trying to be tough. I just did not know what

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Speaker 1: I was doing. So yeah, you get funny situations like that,

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Speaker 1: but you learn, and the best thing you could get

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Speaker 1: is a good mentor. Like seriously, I can't emphasize that enough.

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Speaker 1: You get first six weeks when you're in the cops,

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Speaker 1: you get allocated the buddy, and by that he's someone

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Speaker 1: that or he or she is someone that you work

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Speaker 1: with for those six weeks and they sort of show

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Speaker 1: you the rapes. I was fortunate tany Renniker. I still

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Speaker 1: remember thirty years ago he was he was my buddy,

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Speaker 1: and he was sort of steered me in the right direction.

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Speaker 1: And I think for young cops you really can go

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Speaker 1: off in the wrong direction if you've got the wrong

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Speaker 1: role model, because you are a babe in the woods,

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Speaker 1: you do not know what you're doing, and if someone

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Speaker 1: points you in the wrong direction, you think that's that

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Speaker 1: could be the norm.

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Speaker 2: Say no.

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Speaker 1: I stayed there for a couple of years and then

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Speaker 1: I went into detectives. So after two years I did

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Speaker 1: a bit on. I went into the TRG, which was

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Speaker 1: the right squad, which was which was fun divisional right squad,

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Speaker 1: so you had the full timers and then if they

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Speaker 1: like for the Batist bike race or any protests, you

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Speaker 1: go there. I love that. That was good. I think

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Speaker 1: that was about a ten week.

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Speaker 2: Course, just so when you became a copper you always

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Speaker 2: wanted to go behaved that you just didn't want to say,

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Speaker 2: is that what the goal was?

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Speaker 1: It was just it was like a smallest board of excitement,

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Speaker 1: Like it really was like I people say, would you

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Speaker 1: recommend the cops? I loved it because there's so many

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Speaker 1: different things. Now. When I did the I was in uniform,

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Speaker 1: so you've got to do two years in uniform. But

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Speaker 1: then the position to apply for the right squad the

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Speaker 1: two RG came up, so I did that and that

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Speaker 1: was good because you get called out to sieges and

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Speaker 1: different things or up on the rights or protests which

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Speaker 1: would pull you away from your uniform work. But it

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Speaker 1: just break it up. But you're also it was interesting

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Speaker 1: the type of training. You're using shotguns instead of the

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Speaker 1: revolvers that we had at the time, and right shields,

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Speaker 1: batons and extra training and you do a qualification shoot

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Speaker 1: or I think we had to train once a month

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Speaker 1: say stay certified to it. So I did that. But

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Speaker 1: then after I was about eighteen months in the cops,

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Speaker 1: I've got a tap on the shoulder from a detective

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Speaker 1: and said, would you be interested in the career and

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Speaker 1: playing clothes? I hadn't really thought about it in all ones. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I hadn't. Hadn't thought about it wasn't something that you

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Speaker 1: put your hand up for.

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Speaker 2: It was well, how did they look at that to

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Speaker 2: get you to go from being in uniform to is

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Speaker 2: it something that is it on arrest? Is it how

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Speaker 2: you you are in the in the station.

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Speaker 1: People think back in those those days, and I can

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Speaker 1: say this is because these are the type of people

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Speaker 1: I would invite into the playing close. What they seen you,

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Speaker 1: I think it's someone that's you know a little bit

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Speaker 1: of smarts and is a worker, Like, you're not going

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Speaker 1: to invite a dud into into their in theory. So

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Speaker 1: someone has seen something in me, in what I've done

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Speaker 1: and the way I go about my go about my

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Speaker 1: When you got the ticket the train ticket, well I

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Speaker 1: reckon that my paper, My papers were marked from that time,

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Speaker 1: Like this guy has to be a detective. How dumb

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Speaker 1: someone there? But yeah, besides the great ticket arrest, so

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Speaker 1: that was pretty good. Yeah, you're in the plane clothes

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Speaker 1: and I my first day. Actually, when you're in uniform,

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Speaker 1: you do a They give you a week in detective's office,

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Speaker 1: a week in highway patrol, week in different things so

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Speaker 1: you can sort of have a look around and see

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Speaker 1: how the place works. I did first year I was

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Speaker 1: in the cops. I did a week in plane clothes

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Speaker 1: in detectives, and I'm not kidding. The first day in detectives,

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Speaker 1: got in the biggest car chase I've been in my career.

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Speaker 1: And it went from Barrera toll gates, which aren't there anymore,

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Speaker 1: but you're looking at about ten fifteen kilometers. It was

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Speaker 1: a stolen car, people who escaped and the chase was

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Speaker 1: on I couldn't believe it. I was just seeing the

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Speaker 1: back seat, but it was just so dramatic. Cars We're

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Speaker 1: being rammed when we've finally stopped it, windows are being broken,

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Speaker 1: people are being dragged out, and I thought this, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is in your typical detective's day. But it was

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Speaker 1: an interesting start for my first day in detectives, and

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Speaker 1: I thought, okay, that's that's not a bad way to roll.

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Speaker 1: And then you've got to follow all the way through interview,

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Speaker 1: the interview the persons of interest, suspects or whatever, take

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Speaker 1: them to court, that type of thing, and I enjoyed

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Speaker 1: it like it was. You're not working in uniform. And

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Speaker 1: I want to preface what I'm saying here because I

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Speaker 1: reckon the people that I've got some of the upmoates

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Speaker 1: or the highest respect for the people who've been at

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Speaker 1: the front line in uniform their whole career, and they're

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Speaker 1: worth their weighting gold. People that can do that because

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Speaker 1: you are really the first responders detectives. Yes, we do

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Speaker 1: respond first up if we're around, but that's not our

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Speaker 1: sole role. So it's by no means I'm not saying

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Speaker 1: I didn't like you in the form. Form was good,

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Speaker 1: so there was a bit of rivalry, but there was

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Speaker 1: also some mutual respect. And and what I saw is

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Speaker 1: that the good detectives and the good uniform blokes respected

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Speaker 1: each other. When I say blakes, blokes and women, because

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Speaker 1: by the time I joined the police, I think it

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Speaker 1: was forty percent female in now class at the academy,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's probably the ratio. So there was respect,

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Speaker 1: but there's that little bit of division, and detectives were intimidating.

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Speaker 1: They you'd have to go into their office and I

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Speaker 1: remember going into their office and I kid you not,

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Speaker 1: and again it's just different world. But there's astrays. They're

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Speaker 1: sitting there smoking at lunchtime, they're playing cards and you

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Speaker 1: walk in and your squeaking new uniform and go, excuse me, sergeant,

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Speaker 1: there's a job here, or someone's asked you to give

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Speaker 1: them a call, leave it over there, son or whatever.

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Speaker 1: And you walk out feeling about two foot tall. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was part of the persona of detectives. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: there was good, good detectives and good uniform blokes. So

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Speaker 1: you're in it for thirty four years, yep.

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Speaker 2: And from what the lest that currently if I'm wrong here,

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Speaker 2: So you've done armhold up Squad. You've done organized crime

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Speaker 2: squad yep, Gag squad yep, Unsolved Squad, unsolved, homicide yep,

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Speaker 2: and homicide?

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, which one did you enjoy the most? Homicide

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Speaker 1: was my passion, like the others were like armed hold

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Speaker 1: up was a stepping stepping stone in major crime. I

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Speaker 1: was invited to come same the way that you get

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Speaker 1: invited into playing clothes. Once I became a detective, someone

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Speaker 1: from major crime, the stick ups toole up squad said

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Speaker 1: do you want to come and try out work with us?

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Speaker 1: So I went there organized crime that was the organized

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Speaker 1: crime at that stage. It was I was on different

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Speaker 1: types of cases. There were some interesting cases, but it

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Speaker 1: wasn't wasn't my complete passion. And I got a taste

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Speaker 1: of homicide, and homicide is what really rock my boat.

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Speaker 1: That's where I thought you could make a big difference,

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Speaker 1: and there's victims there. There was a lot of emotion there,

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Speaker 1: a lot of intensity, and I think the people that

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Speaker 1: helped train me in homicide saw the steered to steered

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Speaker 1: me towards it. When I first saw a homicide detective,

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Speaker 1: when they came into a police station, they were like

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Speaker 1: God's actual homicide detectives, and I wouldn't even say I

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Speaker 1: want to be a homicide detective. I'm just a detective.

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Speaker 1: They're homicide detectives who would be good enough to be

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Speaker 1: a homicide detective. But that was the level that they

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Speaker 1: used to operate in those days, and I was fortunate

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Speaker 1: enough to work a couple of homicides with them when

195
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Speaker 1: I was a local area detective, and I was just

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Speaker 1: so impressed with the professionalism and all that I'm playing

197
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Speaker 1: with the A team now, you could see they were

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Speaker 1: a cut above, and that was something that I thought.

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Speaker 2: Different training you've got to do to totally do just what.

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Speaker 1: I think a selection process, probably an informal selection process.

201
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Speaker 1: The show a little bit of now is to get

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Speaker 1: here and Okay, well, you've got those capabilities. You can

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Speaker 1: string two words together, you can type up a report,

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Speaker 1: you can do a statement, you can give evidence in court.

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Speaker 1: All those things come together. But the ones that the

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Speaker 1: characteristic that sort of just jumped out to me was

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Speaker 1: the good The techniques had really genuine empathy. They would

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Speaker 1: understand things and just they were meticulous in the way

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Speaker 1: they approached things, and it was something that I learned

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Speaker 1: from and aspired to be as good as I could

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Speaker 1: to get to the level they were operating it.

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Speaker 2: What about the gang squads? Like before we got like

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Speaker 2: you'd enjoy that, It wasn't.

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Speaker 1: I enjoyed it. I ended up in How did I

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Speaker 1: end up in gangs squad? Had? I got rotated out

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Speaker 1: of homicide because I've been there the longest as a

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Speaker 1: sergeant and they brought in a rotation policy. So I'd

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Speaker 1: probably been in homicide for about ten years and I

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Speaker 1: went I thought, well, if they're going to rotate me out,

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Speaker 1: I'll go for a promotion. And that's I got promoted

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Speaker 1: to inspector detective inspector. There I went for a promation

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Speaker 1: that I was at Chatswood for that and that was

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Speaker 1: that was a different, different type of role. But I

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Speaker 1: had a lot of murders that were hanging over from

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Speaker 1: my time in homicide, so I spent a lot of

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Speaker 1: time working on murders. And as fate would have it,

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Speaker 1: there was a couple of murders that came across my

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Speaker 1: table when I was at Chatswood, and so I just

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Speaker 1: sort of steered right in there. And Yeah, I had

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Speaker 1: bosses saying to me, jubilant understand that you're not a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective anymore. And I said, well, I don't care

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Speaker 1: where you put me. I'm going to investigate homicide if

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Speaker 1: I come across it. Eventually I got I applied and

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Speaker 1: went back to State Crime Command, which is the overarching

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Speaker 1: all the squads. If that makes sense. You've got the

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Speaker 1: armhole up squad, the gang squad, sex crimes, homicide, that

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Speaker 1: so I got a position back there. I wanted to

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Speaker 1: go the homicide and you know, started my falling out

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Speaker 1: with certain bosses. Said no, you're not coming to homicide,

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Speaker 1: We'll put you in gang squad. So I was working

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Speaker 1: gang squad when the biking gangs were well you would

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Speaker 1: know that at a time. So yes, presence of the

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Speaker 1: tourists start just kicking kicking off. Did you did you

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Speaker 1: come in just as the airport think I was on

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Speaker 1: call on either of the airport and i'd been out,

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Speaker 1: or when I say I was on call, I was

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Speaker 1: the on call inspector for gang squad on the night

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Speaker 1: of the airport murder, and I had been out. I

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Speaker 1: think there'd been seven too things that night and that

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Speaker 1: was all related to all this ship that was going on,

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Speaker 1: and I'd been up all night, and I think I'd

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Speaker 1: done a press conference and the senior police asked me

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Speaker 1: to point out that we don't know if this is

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Speaker 1: gang related, that it's just early days. And I still

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Speaker 1: remember standing there at this press conference and it was

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Speaker 1: Paul Kent, and I fronted Paul Kent on this before

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Speaker 1: it was a good question. I'm going, look, it's too early,

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Speaker 1: and it was too early to definitively say if this

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Speaker 1: is gang related. There's been seven houses shut up or whatever,

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Speaker 1: blah blah blah. And then I think Paul Kent chimed up,

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Speaker 1: you seriously telling us this isn't a gang more and

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Speaker 1: this is not going to look as I said, it's

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Speaker 1: very early days. We just don't know, and I was

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Speaker 1: genuine in what I'm saying. But by the time and

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Speaker 1: I hadn't been asleep for twenty four hours at this stage.

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Speaker 1: By the time I was just about to pull into home,

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Speaker 1: I get a call from the police media unit and

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Speaker 1: they go, have you seen what's happened at the airport.

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Speaker 1: I've gone no, and explain the Mick Howie and what happened,

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Speaker 1: and oh, god shit, that's not good. I didn't I

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Speaker 1: didn't respond because I just couldn't stay awake, and I

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Speaker 1: think another inspector, that Stuve French, who my colleague, I

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Speaker 1: rang him and said, look, I'm just on my last legs.

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Speaker 1: Can you take this take this one on. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I still remember watching or hearing on the news that

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Speaker 1: you've got me saying there's no gang. That's but you

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Speaker 1: know that that changed the landscape. And I know you

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Speaker 1: around the cross of the cross at the time. That

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Speaker 1: was when the line had been crossed that you know

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Speaker 1: you've bordered on yourself. Now, guys, that was the start

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Speaker 1: of Raptor being formed that there had to be a response,

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Speaker 1: and I think it was appropriate response because it was

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Speaker 1: getting out of hand at the time, And I know

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Speaker 1: Raptor Squad polarizes people depending on which side of the

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Speaker 1: fence or the way they conduct themselves, but it was

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Speaker 1: needed at that time.

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Speaker 2: I think did well and what they did to control

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Speaker 2: that baky.

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Speaker 1: Wall most definitely. Most definitely, I think if we didn't

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Speaker 1: have something like raptun because in Gang Squad at the time,

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Speaker 1: we were reactive. We weren't proactive, if that's under understanding.

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Speaker 1: What I mean by that is that the crime would

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Speaker 1: happen and then we'd be called out to investigate the crime.

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Speaker 1: Now we may or may not the person responsible for it,

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Speaker 1: but you know, our resources are invested with one day

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Speaker 1: behind because the crimes already happened, so we've rapped. And

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Speaker 1: it was I think modeled loosely on what Middle Eastern

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Speaker 1: organized crime did, where they got out and proactively started

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Speaker 1: harassing people. And you can say it. It came across

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Speaker 1: and they were very abrupt when they came. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: it was a very clear message that you know, enough,

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Speaker 1: enough is enough. Now. You know some people that listened

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Speaker 1: to that and learned from that, other people who came unstuck.

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Speaker 1: But I thought it was you know, it was innovative

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Speaker 1: in the way that it was approached. And I know

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Speaker 1: some people go, you know, their noses are at the

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Speaker 1: joint because of raptor. Some probably literally out of joint

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Speaker 1: because of Raptor. But