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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives

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Speaker 1: detective sy aside of life. The average person has never

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Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. Aaron Patterson

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Speaker 1: caught the attention of the entire country when she murdered

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Speaker 1: her family members by feeding them a meal laced with

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Speaker 1: lethal mushrooms. Recently, Patterson was said to life in prison

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Speaker 1: after being convicted of three counts of murder and one

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Speaker 1: count of attempt murder. And today we're going to examine

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Speaker 1: the case in great detail from a slightly different perspective.

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Speaker 1: We're going to look at the case through the eyes

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Speaker 1: of a fictional duror. Now, I'd like to say this

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Speaker 1: was my idea because I think it is a fascinating

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Speaker 1: way to examine the case. But where credit is due,

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Speaker 1: it was actually renowned writer and television producer Greg Hadrick

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Speaker 1: who came up with the idea. Greg is the author

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Speaker 1: of the recently released book The Mushroom Murders. We sat

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Speaker 1: down and dissected the case from start to finish in

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Speaker 1: a way that gives you an understanding of what the

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Speaker 1: evidence was and how the case against this murderer was

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Speaker 1: presented in court. We separate fact from fiction and provide

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Speaker 1: you with a unique insight into the case. Have a listen,

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Speaker 1: Greg Hadrick, Welcome back to I Catchkillers.

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Speaker 2: Thank you Gary, it's a pleasure being here.

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Speaker 1: Well, I say welcome back, and I know you've won

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Speaker 1: a lot of award in your time in the media

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Speaker 1: world and screenplays and different things. But coming on my

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Speaker 1: Catch Kills for a second time, it must be right

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Speaker 1: up there.

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Speaker 2: I think it's a career highlight. It really is the

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Speaker 2: only right now so I can get back on. Well,

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Speaker 2: the excitement is written all over your face. But good

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Speaker 2: to see you, and I've had the pleasure of reading

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Speaker 2: another book that you've written. You've now switched seemed to

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Speaker 2: be switching from TV very much into the writing space. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I've pivoted into authorship. It didn't start off intentionally, but

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Speaker 2: it's just moved that way and it's been enjoyable.

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Speaker 1: It's been really enjoyable. Well, the book that you entertained

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Speaker 1: me with this weekend was The Mushroom Killer or the

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Speaker 1: Mushroom Murders, as the book is titled. Fascinating read. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: What is it about the Aaron Patterson case that has

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Speaker 1: captured the attention of the nation, And I'm not exaggerating

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Speaker 1: the world the world.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, looks I don't have any blinding insights other than

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Speaker 2: the more time that you know, I spent listening to

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Speaker 2: her in court when she was both giving evidence and

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Speaker 2: then being cross examined. She's fascinating because it's so unusual.

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Speaker 2: The whole case is so unusual and so rare. And

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Speaker 2: I think to find a woman who lives in the country,

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Speaker 2: you know, with her kids, just going about her business,

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Speaker 2: spending months planning a triple murder is so out of

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Speaker 2: the norm that no one could figure out who would

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Speaker 2: do that and what sort of person is she who

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Speaker 2: would do that, And because her character is a difficult

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Speaker 2: personality to unlock, I think it's just fascinated people for

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Speaker 2: well now months, well a lot.

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Speaker 1: Of people have opinions on it and sort of polarized people.

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Speaker 1: I'd say more leaning to the fact that she's guilty,

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Speaker 1: But there were people saying that why would she do that?

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Speaker 1: How could she do that? It's a tragic accident. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Intention was a big issue in the case, and even

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Speaker 2: before the trial, people were saying, on the one hand,

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Speaker 2: it looked like she had done it. On the other hand,

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Speaker 2: there was no motive that anyone could really identify there.

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Speaker 2: She seemed to have no intention of doing it, And

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Speaker 2: you know, if there was no motive, can there be intention.

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Speaker 2: So her claim again and again that it was just

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Speaker 2: a terrible accident that she was really sorry for gained

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Speaker 2: a bit of traction.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and people struggle with motive. But what I found

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Speaker 1: out in my career as a homicide detective, quite often

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Speaker 1: motive is, yeah, you can't explain it, I can't exaiss.

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Speaker 1: Murdering people most times is in the irrational act, and

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Speaker 1: so you're trying to put rational thoughts into the reason

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Speaker 1: why someone would kill.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think a lot of people feel if they

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Speaker 2: understand the motive, they can possibly either feel more safe

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Speaker 2: themselves or make sure they're not in that position, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: But as you say that, because so few of us

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Speaker 2: are killers, we can't really get in that headspace. Things

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Speaker 2: that just make us angry make them kill.

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Speaker 1: And you go, how does that?

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Speaker 2: Where's that bridge?

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Speaker 1: Well, we're going to dissect the whole whole case because

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Speaker 1: you've given the fascinating insight writing writing the book from

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Speaker 1: the perspective of a dura, the fictional duror, And I thought,

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Speaker 1: what a novel idea on the way to write the book.

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Speaker 1: I'd like to claimate that we've had the it was

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Speaker 1: your idea, but it was.

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Speaker 2: And well it began with that, with that thought that

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Speaker 2: because there was a growing school of thought that it

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Speaker 2: might be difficult to get a conviction, because it might

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Speaker 2: be difficult to prove beyond reasonable doubt that you know

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Speaker 2: that she did intend to kill them, And so I thought, well,

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Speaker 2: whether she's as I was sort of listening to the

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Speaker 2: court case and planning the book, I thought, whether she

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Speaker 2: ends up being acquitted or convicted. The journey of how

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Speaker 2: a jury got to that decision with only the evidence

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Speaker 2: that was put in front of them at court. You

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Speaker 2: can't go chatting to anybody else would be a good

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Speaker 2: story in itself.

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Speaker 1: Well, you gave through reading the book and a more

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Speaker 1: in depth understanding. I have the case now. It gave

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Speaker 1: a I thought it was a very simple case to

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Speaker 1: start with, but it could have gone over way because

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Speaker 1: of that. Could have been a tragic accident, like if

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Speaker 1: she got sick from the mushrooms. This is terrible. This

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Speaker 1: poor woman. She's trying to do the right thing, inviting

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Speaker 1: a family or former family members over and just being charitable, and.

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Speaker 2: Then you know, and this happens, and that's right, And

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Speaker 2: that's what she was saying the whole time.

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Speaker 1: Well, when I first heard about it, and I probably

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Speaker 1: still look at things through the lens of a homicide detective,

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking, that's not too hard. I've got to look

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Speaker 1: at the case. So there was a lunch organized. Five

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Speaker 1: people turned up. One person cooked the meal, four got

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Speaker 1: critically sick from what they consumed, three of them died,

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Speaker 1: and the one person that invited the people there prepared

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Speaker 1: the meal. And she was fine, Now if you get

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Speaker 1: a sense, because you've written a lot of crime dramas,

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Speaker 1: so we're in the strikeforce room, setting up the whiteboard

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Speaker 1: and writing the names of the victims down, and what's happened.

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Speaker 1: There would be a lot of arrows pointing at Aaron Patterson,

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Speaker 1: full of them, very very quickly.

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Speaker 2: And there were, as you know from the book, the police.

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Speaker 2: You know, she was in the frame before any of

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Speaker 2: them died. Yeah, really they were. You know, they were

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Speaker 2: obviously hoping no one would die. But you know from

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Speaker 2: the first hours that they were called, all the arrows.

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Speaker 1: Pointed where definitely. But what it's also and in reading

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Speaker 1: the book and understanding how the trial has played out

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Speaker 1: and hearing the reports from from the media, what it's

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Speaker 1: reinforced to me how quite often cases look like a

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Speaker 1: walk up start in homicide. But to prove it beyond

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Speaker 1: reasonable doubt, and that that crucial thing, beyond reasonable doubt,

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Speaker 1: it's a high bar.

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Speaker 2: It is a high bar, and but it should be

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Speaker 2: I think if you're talking about, you know, having people

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Speaker 2: of liberty for thirty odd years, it should be a

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Speaker 2: high bar. But it is a difficult part. As you say,

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Speaker 2: the original headlines five people eat a lunch, one's fine,

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Speaker 2: four critically, three die. You would think it would be

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Speaker 2: a simple case, but every step along the way the

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Speaker 2: defense managed to put doubt doubt. There, are you sure,

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Speaker 2: you can't say for certain that this happened, You can't

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Speaker 2: say for certain that that happened, etc. And they rack

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Speaker 2: up and.

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Speaker 1: It's just that little bit of doubt in it. The

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Speaker 1: other thing about this case, and when we're talking about

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Speaker 1: why people are so fascinated in these particular cases, we

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Speaker 1: have I think a blind spot to women committing evil acts.

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Speaker 1: And quite often we look when in my career in policing,

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Speaker 1: a woman couldn't have done that, and if it was

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Speaker 1: if you flipped it, if it was reverse, if a

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Speaker 1: man had invited his ex wife's family over for a

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Speaker 1: barbecue and four of them got critically ill, people would

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Speaker 1: be going, Okay, that's a bit of a nasty human being,

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Speaker 1: But we don't really look at it when that dark

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Speaker 1: character is a female.

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Speaker 2: I think that's true, and I think you know, in

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Speaker 2: some senses it's it is much rarer for women to

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Speaker 2: be particularly planned killers, to be premeditated is much rare,

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Speaker 2: and because it's rare that people just don't don't believe it.

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Speaker 2: The initial reaction is that that can't be right, you know,

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Speaker 2: I don't think that could happen.

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Speaker 1: Well, this country, we've got a couple of high profile

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Speaker 1: cases that play it out, and one of them Lindy Chamberlain.

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Speaker 1: To start with. We all looked at Lindy and we thought, okay,

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Speaker 1: well she's murdered murdered Zaria and that was proved to

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Speaker 1: be incorrect.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and a lot of people judged her on how

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Speaker 2: she reacted to the camera. It didn't appear to show

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Speaker 2: the grief that you know, you expect that she should.

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Speaker 2: The everyone was going, oh, that doesn't you know, that's.

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Speaker 1: A bit us.

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Speaker 2: Erin was apparently grieving, you know, the first time the

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Speaker 2: cameras were on her. Yeah, and she was there, you know,

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Speaker 2: crying and thinking it was terrible, and she did's appalling

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Speaker 2: what's happened. She doesn't understand whether she learned from Lindy.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Well, you had Lindy, and you've had

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Speaker 1: recently in the media, the lady that was charged with

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Speaker 1: killing the foreign and she's now now been acquitted and

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Speaker 1: found found not guilty after initially being convicted. Do you

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Speaker 1: think that played a part in the way not just

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Speaker 1: the media approached this case, also the public approached the case.

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Speaker 1: And I dare say that the legal system approached this case,

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Speaker 1: that they got it wrong in two high profile cases,

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Speaker 1: that that might have changed the way that we all

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Speaker 1: approached this particular manner.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, I think, you know, it's a sweeping statement,

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Speaker 2: but I think generally speaking, those cases were so famous

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Speaker 2: that this time there was always that hesitation. It was like, well,

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Speaker 2: we think she must have done it, but you know,

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Speaker 2: we've been wrong before. You know, can it be right

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Speaker 2: or not? And what would really convict her? And we're

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Speaker 2: not sure if And that probably fed into into the

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Speaker 2: fascination for the whole and.

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Speaker 1: That's probably why we held back a little bit. We

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Speaker 1: did it to Lindy and Kathleen, Well we can't get

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Speaker 1: it wrong alone this time. Yeah, yeah, No, It's interesting

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Speaker 1: And I've often thought the way people react when you

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Speaker 1: hear of women committing horrendous offenses, that the public just

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Speaker 1: can't accept it. And I suppose it comes down to

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Speaker 1: when they present in a certain way, they're not that

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Speaker 1: sinister person. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think Kelly Elaine, who was a fascinated Aaron Patterson

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Speaker 2: and she was part of that Facebook similar case. Really,

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Speaker 2: a lot of people couldn't really believe that she would

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Speaker 2: do that, that a woman would do that. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: yet the other party is going, but it seems like

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Speaker 2: she did and then and then then.

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Speaker 1: Well that is a puzzle. But look, let's balance it

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Speaker 1: out because there are some other women that have been

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Speaker 1: particularly bad. There's Catherine Mary Knight. That's a lady, a

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Speaker 1: female killer that her crime was horrendously brutal where she

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Speaker 1: killed the person she was seeing at the time, her partner,

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Speaker 1: skinned him and then cut his body parts up and

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Speaker 1: was preparing a meal. It's just shocking, and you're right,

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Speaker 1: you can't imagine, Yeah, a woman doing that, And I

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Speaker 1: think that's that's where we look at it going. Someone

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Speaker 1: couldn't do that, but that's that's that's what happened. Though.

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Speaker 1: We had the detective that investigated that matter on the

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Speaker 1: podcast and walked in and saw the skin hanging there, like.

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Speaker 2: I actually saw it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, just horrendous crime. There was another interesting case and

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Speaker 1: just checking the notes here, but it was Natasha Darcy,

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Speaker 1: widow of a Walker Walcher. I know that, Okay, Well

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Speaker 1: that was a situation where she poisoned her partner at

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Speaker 1: the time, and there was a previous attempt where she

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Speaker 1: tried to poison her former husband, but she wasn't successful

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Speaker 1: there and she ended up poisoning her second partner. So

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Speaker 1: when was this This is I would be probably ten

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Speaker 1: years ago, ten years ago. And the twist in that.

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Speaker 1: And you've been a crime writer, and I know some

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Speaker 1: of the times when I've spoken to you, when you've

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Speaker 1: been writing, you're thinking people won't believe that. But when

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Speaker 1: Natasha poisoned her current partner, the ambulance officer responding was

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Speaker 1: her former husband. Oh it was in a small country town.

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Speaker 1: These things happened. But anyway, we're sort of going off track.

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Speaker 1: But I think just getting a sense of this whole

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Speaker 1: Whites captured the attention of so many people, Aaron Patterson's case.

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Speaker 1: It is fascinating why it has and then it just

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Speaker 1: ballooned globally. How would you describe her as a person?

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Speaker 2: Very difficult to get to know, because she tends to,

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Speaker 2: as far as I could tell listening to her say

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Speaker 2: what she feels people want to hear, or what will

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Speaker 2: put her at the center of attention, or what will

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Speaker 2: do the best for her. So there's a there's a

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Speaker 2: sort of narcissistic quality there, I suppose. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: don't have a psychology degree, but that is how she

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Speaker 2: came across as very much that you know, she's the

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Speaker 2: center of her world and it was annoying that other

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Speaker 2: people would be doing this to her. There was a

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Speaker 2: sense of affront that this could be happening to someone

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Speaker 2: like her when she should be starring in her own life.

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Speaker 2: That that's sort of how she came across.

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Speaker 1: Well, the images of the captured by the media, and

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Speaker 1: they're sometimes taken out of context, but there seemed to

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Speaker 1: be she was indignant about almost attention on her. What

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Speaker 1: are you doing? Why you wasting your time? Is there

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Speaker 1: anything that came out in the trial or anything that

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Speaker 1: you're aware of that sort of a indicator that she

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Speaker 1: might be capable of these horrendous murders.

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Speaker 2: There's no when you track through her history, the only

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Speaker 2: the only things that came out in court were the

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Speaker 2: number of times that she walked out of the relationship

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Speaker 2: with Simon, And although she said at other time that

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Speaker 2: you know, they broke up or he left me, nearly

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Speaker 2: every time the way I was described in court, she

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Speaker 2: was the one who left him, she walked out of

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Speaker 2: the house, she took the kids with her, et cetera. So,

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Speaker 2: and you know, there's many relationships where I suppose that's

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Speaker 2: the case. But I think often often, the only slight

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Speaker 2: insight that I was thinking about with all of those

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Speaker 2: was when things weren't going her way, she would act.

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Speaker 2: Rather than sort of argue through or just be silent

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Speaker 2: or you know, just sort of get through the mood,

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Speaker 2: et cetera, she would act. And and that's the only

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Speaker 2: clue that I think you got to it. It was

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Speaker 2: in the way she handled that relationship, was that when

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Speaker 2: things weren't going her way, she did something about it.

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Speaker 1: That's interesting. Like, I'm obviously not the psychologist either, but

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Speaker 1: if you're looking at motives or the actions type of thing,

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Speaker 1: she's going to take control. She's not happy with something,

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Speaker 1: she's going to change it. She's going to change it.

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Speaker 1: And certainly, committing the offense she did, she changed it

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Speaker 1: in a big way. Okay, when you first heard the case,

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Speaker 1: before you decided you're going to be writing the book

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Speaker 1: about it, what were your initial thoughts.

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Speaker 2: My initial thought actually was it made more sense if

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Speaker 2: it was a terrible accident than a human being would

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Speaker 2: spend months planning this because from the very beginning you thought, well,

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Speaker 2: if she's done it, she had to go out and

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Speaker 2: pick death cap mushrooms, and you know the mushroom season

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Speaker 2: was months before, etc. And so there was a whole

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Speaker 2: planning behind it. And I don't know when you just

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Speaker 2: looked at the first time, you thought, is that even

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Speaker 2: possible that she could do that?

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Speaker 1: So at the very beginning, I.

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Speaker 2: Was more in the in the don't leap to well

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Speaker 2: we say the Lindy Chamber, I think, don't leap to guilty.

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Speaker 2: The simpler explanation is somehow it's a terrible accident.

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Speaker 1: You touched on there that the mushrooms, and I only

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Speaker 1: found that out in research prepping for this, But deaf

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Speaker 1: cap mushrooms are seasonal, so when the murders occurred, she

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Speaker 1: would have had to put the plan in in months

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Speaker 1: and months before.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, three months before.

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Speaker 1: You're laughing, laugh, But sometimes you've got to laugh when

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Speaker 1: you think, well, how does someone plan this? Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: far in advance. So the preparation you've done for the book,

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Speaker 1: you had access to. You were listening to the trials.

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Speaker 2: People who was approved through the Supreme Court of Victoria

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Speaker 2: Media Division to have the audio stream link. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's open justice.

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Speaker 1: So I was.

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Speaker 2: Listening every day to the trial and then getting the

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Speaker 2: copies of the transcript at the end of that day,

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Speaker 2: so I had I had access to everything that was

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Speaker 2: publicly presented in courts. Evidence, all right, So the thorough,

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Speaker 2: very thorough.

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Speaker 1: Yes, the partner simon or husband, well, he just seemed

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Speaker 1: like a straight normal guy. You know.

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Speaker 2: He gave his evidence, you know, in a very calm way.

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Speaker 2: He was very direct about what he could remember and

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Speaker 2: what he couldn't remember. He talked less emotionally about their relationship,

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Speaker 2: just stuck to the facts and all of that. So

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Speaker 2: all as a because I was always thinking from a

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Speaker 2: potential jurors point of view, because that's how it's going to.

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Speaker 1: Do the book.

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Speaker 2: There wasn't a great door into his soul. He just

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Speaker 2: seemed like, you know, a normal, decent fellow. Loved these kids.

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Speaker 2: They both loved their kids.

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Speaker 1: Describing the community that they were living in the family,

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Speaker 1: I'm just trying to get a sense of it, like

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Speaker 1: a picture at rural Victoria an hour or so.

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Speaker 2: About an hour hour to an hour and a half

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Speaker 2: out of out of Melbourney so it's a little like

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Speaker 2: being in the Southern Highlands. Really it's Crumba is a

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Speaker 2: small town, so's Lee and Gatha Outroms even smaller. But

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Speaker 2: they they all are close knit little communities, each of

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Speaker 2: those little townships, and you know most people know most

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Speaker 2: people there, and you know they would devout church goes.

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Speaker 2: The Patterson family. Ian As is well known as pastor

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Speaker 2: at Crumba Church. They mixed with the school community. We

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Speaker 2: can't say what school, but they they had a normal suburban,

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Speaker 2: middle class Australian lifestyle.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And the separation, you said, there's been a couple

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Speaker 1: of times when they're separated in the lead up to

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Speaker 1: the murder. What was the state of the relationship like

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Speaker 1: it at that point.

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Speaker 2: Well, it had reached it's between Simon and Aaron. It

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Speaker 2: had reached its nadia, which pretty much everyone agreed when

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Speaker 2: they gave evidence, you know, not just Simon but also

365
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Speaker 2: Simon's brothers and sister that the worst point was December

366
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Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, which was when the argument over child support. Essentially,

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Speaker 2: Simon put on his tax return that he was single,

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Speaker 2: that he was separated, and that led to a situation

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Speaker 2: where Aaron could claim family tax breaks. But because of that,

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Speaker 2: the government child support system got involved, and various government

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Speaker 2: processes meant that Simon's support for the children was overseen

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Speaker 2: by the government.

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Speaker 1: Organization okay, And I got the sense that that was

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Speaker 1: a significant and that was a thing from Eron that

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Speaker 1: was really that saying it's over like, it's okay, We're

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Speaker 1: not not a trial separation there now we're making.

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Speaker 2: I hadn't actually lived in the same house since twenty fifteen,

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Speaker 2: so it came seven years after that. But they had

379
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Speaker 2: been on holidays together, they'd shared a lot of co

380
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Speaker 2: parenting together. But that was the point at which you know,

381
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Speaker 2: her famous text messages saying things like you know, Fuckerman,

382
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Speaker 2: you know this family. All that sort of stuff came

383
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Speaker 2: about because of that situation, and that was the tipping point.

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Speaker 1: All that was a.

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Speaker 2: Tipping point to all of it was that, yes, and

386
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Speaker 2: the way in her mind it wasn't just about the money,

387
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Speaker 2: because he wasn't paying doctor's bills and he wasn't paying

388
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Speaker 2: school fees because the government had told him not to.

389
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Speaker 2: She was more incensed at at his behavior. Now, it

390
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Speaker 2: was hard at the trial to get a strong sense

391
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Speaker 2: of what that behavior necessarily was, but she was really

392
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Speaker 2: annoyed about it. That was the point at which it

393
00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:06,040
Speaker 2: seemed like being able to sort of at least coperent

394
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Speaker 2: with Simon, even if they couldn't co Habit dissolved and

395
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,639
Speaker 2: there was really not much relationship at all between Simon

396
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Speaker 2: and Aaron after that point, although she did try to

397
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Speaker 2: stay in close touch with Donn and with Gail.

398
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Speaker 1: Yeah, tell us about the victims, because I think one

399
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,359
Speaker 1: thing that's been lost in the fascination with this case

400
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 1: is that three people have lost their lives, and has

401
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,119
Speaker 1: had lucky to survive and lost his wife, and so

402
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Speaker 1: there's been a lot of tragedy, huge tragedy associated associated

403
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:38,960
Speaker 1: with this well with her actions, as the court have

404
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,400
Speaker 1: found out. So you've got don Patterson and Gail Patterson,

405
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Speaker 1: her in laws, or Simon's parents. What were they like

406
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Speaker 1: as people?

407
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Speaker 2: As far as I can tell, The way that the

408
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 2: various siblings described them in court is they were typical, loving,

409
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 2: caring grandparents parents to Simon. But in particular the relationship

410
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:05,800
Speaker 2: with Simon and Eron's kids and with the kids of

411
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 2: the other siblings was very strong. I was very caring,

412
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Speaker 2: you know, he was tutoring the son in maths and

413
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Speaker 2: helping him get through school, building backyard rockets with him

414
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Speaker 2: and you know, fun stuff, cool stuff like that. Gail.

415
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Speaker 2: They often would have the kids over at their place.

416
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Speaker 2: Gail was very concerned about Aaron's health and there's a

417
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Speaker 2: string of text messages where she's tried to offer her

418
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 2: support and prayers, et cetera for the various ailments that

419
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 2: Aaron said she had. So how they came across to

420
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 2: us in court, who never knew them personally, was kind,

421
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:43,439
Speaker 2: loving people.

422
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Speaker 1: That seems to be the narrative that's been portrayed about them, and.

423
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Speaker 2: There's nothing to suggest anything but that.

424
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Speaker 1: And they seem like the perfect in laws in the

425
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,399
Speaker 1: situation of separation. They were still staying in contact with

426
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Speaker 1: absolute eron and not making life difficult and just been.

427
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 2: Constantly asking about the kids and helping where they could.

428
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Speaker 1: Yeah.

429
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Speaker 2: Yeah, lovely people.

430
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Speaker 1: I say that because it all adds up to lovely

431
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 1: people that she decided to kill. Then you've got Heather

432
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,640
Speaker 1: Wilkinson and Ierne Wilkinson. Now Heather was Gail's sister. Yeah,

433
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Speaker 1: what what was a relationship they had, Well, they had.

434
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Speaker 2: It was more distant like Don and Gail. You could

435
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 2: track through phone calls and text messages, et cetera. Quite

436
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 2: a relationship. They were the kid's grandparents, et cetera. Ian

437
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,920
Speaker 2: and Heather were part of an extended family that Aaron

438
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 2: didn't appear to have all that much to do with.

439
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 2: They were friendly, They saw each other at church every

440
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 2: second or once a month or whatever, once a fortnite.

441
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,159
Speaker 2: But as it was said at court, that was the

442
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 2: first time that she'd ever actually invited Ian and Heather,

443
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 2: you know, to a lunch right at her place. They'd

444
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 2: met at Christmas party and you know, big family celebrations

445
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 2: for birthdays, et cetera, but a specific why don't we

446
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 2: come and have lunch? That was the first time.

447
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 1: My mind's processing it, like you're breaking it down, and

448
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 1: sometimes when you think about it and the why even

449
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: include those people in there, like what's the connection? What

450
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 1: are you trying to achieve?

451
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 2: And and and you know, it's a dangerous game trying

452
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 2: to get inside Aaron Patterson's head. But all that was

453
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 2: said again, as far as I can remember, that came

454
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 2: out in the evidence at court was that when she'd

455
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,199
Speaker 2: had a lunch, which the prosecution sort of put as

456
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 2: almost like a trial run about a month before, four

457
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 2: or five weeks before, which was shepherds bired, no mushrooms involved.

458
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 2: And at that lunch which the kids were there and

459
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 2: Dine and Gail and Aaron and Simon wasn't and Gail

460
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 2: had said that Heather would love the garden, right because

461
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 2: obviously I presume you know, Heather was a keen gardener.

462
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 2: Aaron's block was two or three acres something alean gather,

463
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 2: and she landscaped a lot of it and it had

464
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 2: mulched and new plants, et cetera. So it was a

465
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 2: night lovely looking garden, and Gail had mentioned that it

466
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 2: was one that Heather would really appreciate seeing, and it

467
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 2: seems as though that's why they were invited. There was

468
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 2: no other real reason. So that when at church on

469
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:26,199
Speaker 2: the sixteenth of July, when when Aaron invited Don and

470
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 2: Gail to lunch, it appears though she Gail was talking

471
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 2: to Heather and she approached both of them and said

472
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 2: something like no one can move with exact words, but perfectly, oh,

473
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,159
Speaker 2: just the people I wanted to see. The lunch was

474
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,400
Speaker 2: for Don and Gail, but you know, Heather was there

475
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 2: with her, and Gail had previously said that she'd loved

476
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:45,880
Speaker 2: the garden, so why don't you anything come along as well?

477
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 1: Right, that seems to be it. Well, look there is

478
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: no explanation like it's you can speculate and that's yeah.

479
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,640
Speaker 1: I suppose what jurors are doing too when they're looking

480
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: at these cases. It's Xantha And we'll talk in more

481
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 1: detail of the trial in the second part. But okay,

482
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 1: so you've got this situation. You're painting the picture a normal,

483
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: average family. That's and I think quite often the public

484
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 1: get interested in in a situation that happens because that

485
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 1: could be anyone's family, anyone.

486
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 2: There's no criminality here at all. It's just an average,

487
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 2: middle class Australian family.

488
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,400
Speaker 1: Okay, so they've been invited around for lunch. Now there

489
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 1: was a pretense that Aaron had said that she wanted

490
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 1: to speak to them about some upcoming health issues. What

491
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 1: was that all about?

492
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 2: Well, there was there was a lot of debate and

493
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 2: argument at the trial exactly about what it was about.

494
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 2: Initially when she was first interviewed by police. Actually, I

495
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 2: think Erin just said she wanted to stay close with

496
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 2: the family, but she had the text exchanges with Gail

497
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 2: in the in the couple of weeks before, she was

498
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 2: saying that she had a lump on her elbow and

499
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 2: that she needed to have an MRI on that, and

500
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,479
Speaker 2: then she'd get the results of that back. And they

501
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 2: go backwards and forward to how are you have you

502
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 2: got the results? You know you're okay, And in the

503
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 2: text messages, err And says something like, oh, it's a

504
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 2: lot to process, but you know, hopefully, you know, I

505
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 2: will find a time where I can talk.

506
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 1: It through with you.

507
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 2: And then when they're invited to lunch, almost she made

508
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 2: it sound almost as a secondary motive, and she was

509
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 2: watering it down in court a little bit, but clearly

510
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 2: she felt that she wanted to do something at lunch

511
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 2: rather than just house things. So at lunch, she said,

512
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 2: and this comes mostly from Ian, who was very clear

513
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 2: in the witness box that she said to them at

514
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 2: the end of the lunch that she'd been diagnosed with cancer,

515
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 2: and part of her fear and the reason why the

516
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 2: kids weren't there at lunch was she was wanting to

517
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 2: talk about how she should break it to the kids

518
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 2: and whether she and Simon should do it together or

519
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 2: whether it should you just be her or should you

520
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 2: try and not tell the kids and just go through treatment,

521
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 2: et cetera. And they were very worried about her, and

522
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 2: Don was saying, I think, you know, should be up

523
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 2: front and be truthful with the kids, or good advice

524
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 2: Ian if had a prayer for it, that she should

525
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 2: make wise decisions, et cetera. As it was found out later,

526
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 2: there was never a diagnosis, There was never a needle biopously,

527
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 2: there was never an MRI, and she's never been diagnosed

528
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 2: with cancer. It was all a complete lie.

529
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: What was the purpose of that, you think too? Well?

530
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 2: Again in court she said she was hiding the fact

531
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 2: that she was really wanting to she had weight issues,

532
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 2: and yes she did lie about having cancer, but she

533
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 2: was going to have gastric bypass surgery. But in the

534
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 2: end my dura and I don't quite believe that either

535
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 2: because the facility that she had appointment.

536
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: With on that when you say myn dura and so

537
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 1: I'm just getting getting a sense of how you wrote

538
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 1: the book, that you were really putting yourself in there,

539
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 1: going Okay, this is what's been presented. What was your

540
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: character like mine?

541
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, that so that the narrator in the book doesn't

542
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 2: necessarily follow exactly what I was thinking. Yes, you know,

543
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 2: they have their own opinions in their own background and

544
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 2: their own history, et cetera. But the narrator certainly doesn't

545
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 2: believe the gastric bypass story, which brings you back to

546
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 2: what was the point?

547
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 1: What was the point? What was the point of it.

548
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 2: All? And this is speculation again, not a psychologist. It

549
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 2: made her the center of attention, and it may had

550
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 2: everyone gave her sympathy. Yes, so it's sort of manipulating

551
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 2: people's feelings toward her in a way that she felt

552
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 2: would bond her again with the family and yet put

553
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 2: her at.

554
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 1: The center of the story. That's that's the best I

555
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: can do. Well, I what you and your dur durham

556
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 1: mate have come up with. My reading of it, taking

557
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 1: in all the information I've got, and again it's any speculation.

558
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 1: It felt like to me a woman that was really

559
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: alone and was worried about losing the family like that was.

560
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: She might have got on with them, she might have

561
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 1: fought with them or whatever, but she was fearful of

562
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: being alone. And then that fear somehow turned into resentment

563
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 1: and then anger and then along those lines. To me,

564
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: there's not much talk with the other community or friendships

565
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: that she had was very much family orientated.

566
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 2: Yes, it did feel like she was very family oriented

567
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 2: because remember she wasn't working, so it's not as though

568
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 2: she had a workspace with work colleagues or anything like that.

569
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 2: She had applied to do a course in nursing at

570
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 2: the beginning of twenty twenty three but then deferred it,

571
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 2: so other than dropping the kids at school or the

572
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 2: school bus stop, there was nothing else.

573
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: Yes, so a fixation of that she's going to lose

574
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: the only family has she got the family like her

575
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 1: family separate.

576
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 2: I believe she has a sister, very I think you

577
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 2: might even mentioned a couple of times in court. Her

578
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 2: father died in two thousand, but very few details about that. Yeah,

579
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 2: her mother died in twenty nineteen. There's a suggestion that

580
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 2: she had breast cancer and might have died of breast cancer,

581
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 2: but that's not quite quite clear. So she'd lost both

582
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 2: her parents didn't seem to have as far as you

583
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 2: can tell from the what's presented at court, didn't seem

584
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 2: to have any particular relationship with her sister. So her

585
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 2: only family was the Patterson family.

586
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: And that's what appears that that was growing further and

587
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: further apart. And I suppose as the children get older too,

588
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 1: there's less reasons to stay in contact and that could

589
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: come into play. You said she wasn't working. Was it

590
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 1: one stage she was an air traffic controller?

591
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 2: She was, but that was before she met Simon, So

592
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 2: you've got to go back to two thousand and two,

593
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 2: two thousand and one, two thousand and two, and yeah,

594
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 2: she was in air traffic controller for a couple of years.

595
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 2: And again just looking at what's presented at court, they

596
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:00,959
Speaker 2: don't say much about that other than she was an

597
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 2: air traffic control Simon said she was working at Tullamarine.

598
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: Now that's a hell of a chot. That's a lot

599
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: of responsibility and decisive action. You said she was a

600
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 1: lady of actions, so they got to be decisive.

601
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, that role that very and you know, very ordered,

602
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 2: very clinical, very logical.

603
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: Psychologically sound too. I would imagine that comes into play

604
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 1: any any talk or understanding of a previous relationship she

605
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: had before Simon. Anything, Nothing out the background background there,

606
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: there's nothing at all. The evidence presented at trial really

607
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 1: starts with air traffic control and then she met when

608
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: she left that she started working at Monash Council. Actually

609
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: she was with the RSPCA and seconded to Monash Council.

610
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 1: That's where she met Simon and that's really where the

611
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 1: evidence at court. What she's doing at the RSPCA, you know, No, I.

612
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 2: Don't, Actually she was.

613
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:53,239
Speaker 1: She was.

614
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 2: She was a liaison officer for the r s p

615
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 2: C a with Monash Council.

616
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: What that entailed. We never really got into the detail

617
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: thinking empathy and all sorts of things RSPC. But yeah,

618
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 1: it's just strange in so many ways. Can you describe

619
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 1: to us now the lunch, what took place? Just what

620
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 1: we know about the lunch and in part two will

621
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: break down the information and how it played out in

622
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,280
Speaker 1: the trial. But what's the overview of the lunch?

623
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 2: The overview is Don and Gale picked up In and

624
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 2: Heather from outside their housep drove. I think it's only

625
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 2: about fifteen twenty minutes or so from Crumbra to liam Gatta.

626
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 2: They pulled up, Aaron was actually finishing getting the lunch ready,

627
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 2: so they chatted for a little bit in the kitchen.

628
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 2: They went outside to the backyard or just on the

629
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:43,439
Speaker 2: back porch and had a little look at the garden

630
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 2: and said some nice things about that. They came back

631
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 2: in Heather and Gale asked Aaron whether she needed Oh,

632
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 2: they actually they went to the pantry. That was an

633
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,240
Speaker 2: interesting little side thing because Heather, I think, was planning

634
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,320
Speaker 2: to renovate her kitchen, so she was looking at people's

635
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 2: pantries and figuring out different design things, etc. And Erin

636
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 2: had a big walk in pantry and she just went, oh,

637
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,479
Speaker 2: can overlook and headed toward it, thinking well, no one's

638
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 2: going to say no, you can't look in my pantry,

639
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 2: and Eron did actually hesitate and tense up a little bit,

640
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 2: and she just said it was because it was all messy.

641
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 2: But Ian made a point of that in his evidence,

642
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:24,320
Speaker 2: just saying because he was going to go over and

643
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:25,879
Speaker 2: have a look at the pantry too, and then thought, oh,

644
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 2: something's a bit the way she overreacted to that. Then

645
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 2: they asked if she needed help plating up, and she

646
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 2: said no, there's lots of little things about, you know,

647
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 2: where the plates were and all that sort of stuff,

648
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 2: But essentially she put beef Wellington on every plate, with

649
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 2: some mashed potato and some beans. Gail took two of

650
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 2: the plates and these were the ones that he In

651
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 2: described as the four gray plates Heather took to Gail

652
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 2: took too. They took them over to the table, and

653
00:35:56,239 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 2: Aaron carried her own over there, which Ian claimed was

654
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 2: like an orange tan color. And clearly the jury and

655
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,879
Speaker 2: the judge agreed with Ian's Testamony was very very clear

656
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 2: and very strong about so there were four gray plates.

657
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 2: Hers is on a separate orange tan, et cetera. They

658
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 2: sat down, he said grace, which I thought was an

659
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 2: ironic moment of all things. Yeah, thank you for this food,

660
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 2: my lord. They started eating. No one can remember much

661
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:33,839
Speaker 2: about what was said at the lunch itself. They just say,

662
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 2: you know, there was a bit about how it was

663
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 2: apparently very nice, it was very yummy meal. Really, you

664
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:47,320
Speaker 2: know that. They all remember that donate his beef Wellington,

665
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 2: and Gayl could only get through a round about half

666
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 2: of hers, and so he ate the other half of hers.

667
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 2: Ian and Heather. Ian says, both he and Heather ate

668
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 2: all of their beef Willington, but it was big. They

669
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 2: were sort of full after lunch.

670
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:06,760
Speaker 1: They didn't have And because this goes into the planning

671
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 1: of the murder, so the beef Wellington pie is a

672
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: size of an average pie. Is that what?

673
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 2: That's what that's the assumption, Yeah, because which is not

674
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 2: a normal beef Wellington.

675
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 1: But that if you made the big one where it

676
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,279
Speaker 1: could be cut out up and everyone got sick, you'd

677
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 1: be we wouldn't be having this conversation. That would be

678
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 1: a tragic accident. It would be hard to convict. But

679
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 1: the fact that they've made posially. I'm not not a psychologist,

680
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 1: but I'm not a very good chef, but I would

681
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 1: imagine making five pies is more difficult than making one larger.

682
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 2: But I would think, and I actually have made a

683
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 2: beef Wellington since okay, we've got an expert, I thought

684
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 2: I should have a crack at this. Yea, And yeah,

685
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 2: it would have been much fiddler. But then she had

686
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 2: to do it, yeah, to make five individual ones. In

687
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 2: her evidence, Aaron says that she Woolies didn't sell one

688
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,720
Speaker 2: big beef I which is what you normally would wrap

689
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 2: in mushrooms and pursuto and then pastry. All well, he

690
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 2: is sold with the individual life at stakes and that's

691
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 2: why she made them individually, as doctor Rodgers and the

692
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 2: prosecution said in the trial, and as you know, a

693
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 2: quick Google will show you the lion. Gatha Butcher is

694
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 2: right next door to Woollies. Like you if you wanted

695
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 2: to buy an eye filler. Yeah, you only had to

696
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 2: walk twenty meters. That's where the story starts, where you

697
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 2: go break break down. It starts to break down there.

698
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,839
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, those are all the things that come out

699
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,439
Speaker 1: in the trial, but the ones that the prosecution push

700
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,399
Speaker 1: and then the defense will come back with something else.

701
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 1: They've had their they've had their meal. Yeah, there was

702
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 1: no blap, was there. I suppose is the only one

703
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: we could really count on who survived. And he was

704
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 1: in the camera for a time after eight years.

705
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,359
Speaker 2: And he was but he just remembers it as just

706
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,840
Speaker 2: just normal domestic chit chat. There's a feeling that a

707
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 2: bit of politics got discussed. And you have to remember

708
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 2: the the Yes vote de Parliament. It was going on

709
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 2: the same time.

710
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it was.

711
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 2: It was when they had finished beef Wellington's, the main cause.

712
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 2: Gail had brought a cake and Heather had brought a

713
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 2: fruit platter. Not much of that was eaten because the

714
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 2: beef Wellington's were very filling. And that's that's when Aaron

715
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 2: said that she wanted to talk to them about the

716
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 2: cancer diagnosis, okay, which was bullshit, bullshit, But she played

717
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 2: played that garden and so as people say, now I'm

718
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 2: not sure if I'm jumping ahead of the question, but

719
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 2: she would have known what they were eating through that

720
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 2: entire lunch. So it's staggering.

721
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: Really. Well, you look at murder and that can be

722
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:44,360
Speaker 1: a crime of passion, that can be all sorts of

723
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: reasons for a murder, but the planning that goes into

724
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 1: that and then victims that honest approaches. She's got no

725
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 1: reason to hate these people. But yeah, no one could

726
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: find any You could hate your ex partner or whatever,

727
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: but whether that you go to the ex stream of

728
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: killing the person, but no animosity with these people. They

729
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,760
Speaker 1: showed her only love, respect and kindness. That's the sense.

730
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 1: And the fact that they were even buying into your

731
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 1: poor thing. You might be suffering from cancer, and I

732
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: would imagine they said all the right things there.

733
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,799
Speaker 2: They did, yeah, and prayed for her, so you know,

734
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 2: having fed them a meal that would kill them, she

735
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 2: then got them to pray for her. Tell us it's astonishing.

736
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 1: Simon wasn't there, but he was. Simon was not there.

737
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 1: He was invited he was.

738
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 2: He declined the invitation with the text on the Friday

739
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:41,440
Speaker 2: afternoon or Friday evening, just saying he felt uncomfortable going,

740
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 2: And in the court and minerrator in the book is

741
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 2: slightly annoyed because no one ever asks what was he

742
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 2: uncomfortable about? Right, he just says he was uncomfortable. It's

743
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 2: not till.

744
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 1: After the trial, and that he could explain.

745
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 2: He could explain he was uncomfortable. He'd said a very

746
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 2: similar with the previous lunch on the twenty fourth of June,

747
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 2: the Shepherd's Pie lunch. Same thing, he responded, saying, no,

748
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 2: I don't think he did. Say to her, if you

749
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 2: want to discuss how we should talk to the kids

750
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 2: about any medical issue you might have, or you want

751
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 2: to talk about your medical issues with me, give me

752
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 2: a call. Very happy to keep talking with her and

753
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 2: keep coparenting the kids. Just didn't want to sit down

754
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 2: and eat anything she'd cooked.

755
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 1: That's telling, But the jury weren't aware of the details

756
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: other than he declined to go to lunch.

757
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, they were given no further details on why that

758
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 2: might be the case.

759
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 1: Okay, what were the after effects of the meal? So everyone,

760
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: assuming you've described that they've sat down, had a normal

761
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 1: lunch discussing what they've discussed. They've left. I'm sure they

762
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 1: thanked Aaron.

763
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 2: And they did. And Simon drops the kids back, the

764
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 2: son and his mate and the daughter actually stays with

765
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 2: and they go back and have some father daughter time.

766
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,879
Speaker 2: The boys come in and that's when Don and Gale

767
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 2: and Ian and Heather head back home. And Ian had

768
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,919
Speaker 2: some meetings for because he was going to deliver the service.

769
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 1: The next day.

770
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 2: So they've by three o'clock they've left, and in court

771
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 2: all Erin said was, well, she did a bit tiding up,

772
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:23,800
Speaker 2: a bit of cleaning, et cetera. The kid, the boys

773
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 2: went in and played computer games in the TV computer

774
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 2: room until around about you know, six six thirty or so,

775
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 2: and then she needed to figure out when the son's

776
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 2: mate needed to go back home. And while this is

777
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:41,479
Speaker 2: going on, Heather as Donegale head back to their home.

778
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,839
Speaker 2: They have a conversation with they think with the daughter

779
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:48,839
Speaker 2: who just course they had to go, and there's mention

780
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:52,280
Speaker 2: of the fact that Aaron's had a cancer diagnosis.

781
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's something that can be relied upon. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

782
00:42:56,239 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 1: that's it's not just Ian saying that, Yeah, that corroborates,

783
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 1: and they said that to Simon the following morning as well.

784
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 1: They Don and Galeni and Heather are fine till around

785
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 1: about midnight. Hard to put no one notes at the

786
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 1: exact time, but call it sometime around about eleven eleven

787
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 1: thirty in midnight, have ust well, and pretty much within

788
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: an hour all four of them start having severe diarrhea

789
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 1: and vomiting. And so all of that would be around

790
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:37,399
Speaker 1: about eleven twelve hours after they've digested the yeah, after

791
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 1: the beef Wellington's, and that becomes significant because most viral

792
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 1: and bacterial gastrobugs, you start feeling sick two three four

793
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 1: hours later. One of the things that first made the

794
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:55,839
Speaker 1: toxicologists suspect and wonder whether it could be death cap

795
00:43:55,880 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 1: mushrooms was that delay. Okay, rare, it's rare, and it's specific,

796
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: like deathcat mushrooms are known to take that long.

797
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 2: They can't you can't get early symptoms. It just doesn't

798
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:11,319
Speaker 2: get through the liver and the bile and the blow

799
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 2: in that time. So that that was a not conclusive,

800
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 2: but it was a strong indicator given the fact that

801
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 2: they'd eaten a beef Wellington with mushrooms in it, and

802
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 2: they had eleven to twelve hours delayed presentation.

803
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 1: Reasonable.

804
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a reasonable hypothesis. Pretty quickly, what happened

805
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 2: Erin's Erin's journey through that Saturday evening, we largely have

806
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 2: to take Erin's word for it, which is dicey to

807
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:41,279
Speaker 2: say the least. I been very kind, yea.

808
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 1: So she.

809
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 2: Drops her son's mate home about seven ish. She says

810
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 2: to Simon the next day that she start and she

811
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 2: says to the child protection worker two or three days

812
00:44:55,840 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 2: later that she started having a diarrhea. And she never

813
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 2: claimed to wine. She said she had nausea and diary

814
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:05,439
Speaker 2: and that she was starting to feel that around about

815
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,360
Speaker 2: seven o'clock. And it was one of the small things

816
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 2: that became an issue because if she had eaten the

817
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,319
Speaker 2: same meal as Don and Galea and the and Heather,

818
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,280
Speaker 2: she should not have would not have got those symptoms

819
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:21,479
Speaker 2: so early, so early.

820
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's those little lies that she told and.

821
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 2: Trying to try to say I'm the same as them,

822
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 2: I'm the same as them, fit the story, yeah, but

823
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:35,840
Speaker 2: in fact it made the story harder for her for her.

824
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 1: Once she she realized what happened. Eventually they got admitted

825
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:42,280
Speaker 1: to hospital.

826
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:47,400
Speaker 2: They did. The following morning, Don calls an ambulance and

827
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 2: he and Gala taken straight to Crumborough Hospital.

828
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 1: And why are we talking in terms of a hospital

829
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 1: there and the like?

830
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:56,880
Speaker 2: Literally there are two beds in the You're.

831
00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 1: Lucky to have a doctor. Yeah.

832
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the reason why Ian and Heather ended up

833
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 2: at Liam Gather Hospital was because Don and go were

834
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 2: already in the two beds in Crumber.

835
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 1: So it was that capacity.

836
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:12,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, Simon picks up the Inn and Heather and drives them, well,

837
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:14,839
Speaker 2: he drove them to Crumber and they said, sorry, we're

838
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:18,439
Speaker 2: full with your parents. And so he was driving in

839
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,319
Speaker 2: and Heather to Lian Gather and that it's during that

840
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:25,359
Speaker 2: phase when Heather's saying to Simon it puzzles her why

841
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 2: Aaron had a separate plate. She said, we all had

842
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 2: the same plates. I don't think she Simon doesn't say

843
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 2: she actually said gray plates. That's very much what Ian's

844
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 2: memory is, but he's very strong on that. But Heather

845
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:39,240
Speaker 2: did say to Simon, we all had the same plates,

846
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:40,240
Speaker 2: and she had.

847
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:41,319
Speaker 1: A different had a different plate.

848
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, why would that be? And she never goes that

849
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:48,680
Speaker 2: extra step. But clearly she's thinking it's weird.

850
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 1: Okay, is just picking up that's stranger having dinner party

851
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 1: and yeah six six plates even tho if you we

852
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: have lost a few, you can.

853
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 2: So they Yeah, so they start It looks like they've

854
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 2: got a severe case of normal viral gastro and so are.

855
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,959
Speaker 1: They is a thought process you think going through their mind.

856
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 1: They wouldn't. They wouldn't be thinking we've been murdered at

857
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 1: this stage. Yeah, maybe unhygienic. The way she prepared the meal,

858
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 1: or what she feather said was the meat.

859
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 2: You're more likely to think the meat. In fact, doctor

860
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 2: Chris Webster at lean Gatha, his initial thought was it's

861
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 2: probably off meat. Yeah, your mind doesn't go straight to

862
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 2: deathcat mushrooms. Yeah, And that's what they were thinking.

863
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:33,360
Speaker 1: And so they.

864
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 2: Were doing a lot of the standard treatments that you

865
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 2: would for people who are becoming dehydrated because they've had

866
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 2: so much diarrhea and so much vomiting. So they have

867
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 2: saline drips and things like that to keep fluid up,

868
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 2: et cetera. And that goes on through Sunday, Sunday afternoon.

869
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 2: It's Sunday afternoon. Having done all that a normal gastro bug,

870
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,799
Speaker 2: you'd start to settle down down in particular because he

871
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 2: had one and a half, Wellington just kept getting worse.

872
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 2: The diary got worse, the vomiting got worse, and none

873
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 2: of the normal simple things you do for ordinary gastra

874
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 2: were having any effect. And they didn't have the sophisticated

875
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 2: tests needed at Little Corumbra Hospital, so they immediately said,

876
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 2: well they need to go to a higher tier hospital.

877
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 2: So they went to They put them in a ambulance

878
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 2: and took them to Dandenol Hospital on Sunday night, and

879
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 2: that's where Beth Morgan was the doctor in charge of

880
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:36,399
Speaker 2: them there, and Ian and Heather at this stage are

881
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 2: still at leon Gatha, but following a similar trajectory like

882
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:46,800
Speaker 2: just not in the illness, if anything worse, they weren't.

883
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 2: Don was the one who was who was really getting

884
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 2: worse faster at that point in time, and it was

885
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:57,360
Speaker 2: his blood tests, the more sophisticated blood test that Dandenol

886
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 2: Hospital could do that started ticularly getting Beth Morgan worried

887
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:05,239
Speaker 2: because they showed what's called an elevated lactate. And this

888
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 2: is me not being a doctor, but just reading the evidence,

889
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 2: they put a trial, and it was the nature that

890
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:15,400
Speaker 2: elevated lactate that indicated to her that there was significant

891
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 2: liver damage happening. And this, this is not normal, This

892
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 2: is not your average gastro and when it's starting the damage,

893
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 2: we're we're starting to damage the liver. And are few

894
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:29,720
Speaker 2: other medico things around that which I can't quite remember,

895
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:33,400
Speaker 2: but that was the significant one. And she later that

896
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 2: evening she gets on to Mark Douglas, the toxicologist. Meanwhile,

897
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 2: while she's scratching her head about an elevated lactate, Aaron

898
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 2: is feeding, says and the kids sort of say, this too,

899
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:50,839
Speaker 2: is feeding the leftovers to her kids. That's happening at

900
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 2: the same time. And I feel and know from reading

901
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 2: the book that I my Duror. That's where she bumps

902
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:03,320
Speaker 2: the most that if Aaron's claim that she's had explosive

903
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 2: diarrhea through Saturday night, she's aware. I guess they're all

904
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 2: in trying to back away from that, but the evidence

905
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 2: is pretty strong that she knew that Don and Gai

906
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 2: were in hospital. So you know that your lunch has

907
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 2: made you sick, You're not going to dish it up

908
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 2: to your kids unless you know it's uncontaminated. Otherwise I

909
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 2: don't think any just it doesn't just go against parenting,

910
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 2: it goes against an instinctive human reaction to feeling sick

911
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 2: after eating something. So that was very odd and I

912
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,400
Speaker 2: think one of the things that really undid erin So,

913
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 2: while the kids are having a great piece of steak

914
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:45,839
Speaker 2: from leftover from Saturday lunch, Beth is talking to Mark

915
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 2: Douglash's toxicologist at Dandenong Hospital. And that's when the short

916
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:54,839
Speaker 2: simple version that the medical version is much much more

917
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 2: detailed and complex. The short simple version is they put

918
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 2: together the live damage coming from being noticed by the

919
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 2: high lactate level together with the long twelve hour separation

920
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:10,279
Speaker 2: between eating the lunch and actually having sudden symptoms and

921
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:16,240
Speaker 2: serious symptoms. And that's when Mark thinks, well, one explanation

922
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 2: for this is death cap mushrooms.

923
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 1: Now his.

924
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 2: Boss, toxicology boss at danden On effectively says, yes, it

925
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:27,240
Speaker 2: could be, but it still could be many other things.

926
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 2: We don't quite know. Where we sitting here now can

927
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:33,320
Speaker 2: play hindsight at that point in time.

928
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 1: There could be other thing.

929
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 2: There could be half a dozen other things. But at

930
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 2: that point they knew that death caps was on the

931
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 2: table as a possibility. And Beth Morgan at seven o'clock

932
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 2: on the Monday morning, she knows that he and the

933
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 2: other two hunch Gercine and Heather a lean Gath hospital

934
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 2: and she calls Chris Webster lean Gatha and says, we've

935
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 2: got a deep suspicion that this it was the mushrooms

936
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 2: in this meal, and it was death capoms that have

937
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:06,840
Speaker 2: created the problem here. And again no one's doctors too

938
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 2: cautious to say beyond doubt, but it was heavily suspected.

939
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:15,800
Speaker 1: And that adds a whole nother layer of concern because

940
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 1: you did these mushrooms come from?

941
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 2: Where did they come from? Is there going to be

942
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 2: an outbreak of death cap poison through Melbourne?

943
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 1: Were they sold in the local supermarket? There's someone there.

944
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:30,360
Speaker 2: So their main fear wasn't oh has people been murdered?

945
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:33,400
Speaker 2: It was public health. He was, oh, my god, like

946
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 2: you know, we've got to stop this from becoming a

947
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 2: public health issue. And so they were worried about Aaron

948
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 2: because they thought that she could will be at home

949
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 2: with the same symptomces violently ill. So when Aaron arrives

950
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:50,879
Speaker 2: at Leanngath the hospital around about it five past eight

951
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 2: on the Monday morning. Chris words just basically going in it.

952
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 2: Thank God, we're wondering where you are.

953
00:52:57,200 --> 00:52:58,319
Speaker 1: You stay here.

954
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 2: We suspect that your other lunch guests are they're very unwell.

955
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:07,400
Speaker 2: Exactly what was said here. Lots of people remember slightly

956
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 2: different versions of those conversations as they do as they

957
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:13,400
Speaker 2: do memory. And you know, doctors have to be careful

958
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 2: of Gee, if I say I said that, maybe I've

959
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 2: broken patient confidentiality. On the other hand, he was trying

960
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:22,920
Speaker 2: to save lives and trying to identify where the mushrooms

961
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 2: came from in case it became a public health issue,

962
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 2: so he says, and she tells him that the kids

963
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 2: hate the leftover, So he's saying, you've got to get

964
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 2: the kids here. Now, you've got to stay here. Now,

965
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:35,399
Speaker 2: we've got to make sure that you don't end up

966
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 2: as seriously well because Ian and here that at that

967
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 2: time in the footage you see because you can find

968
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 2: it online now where she lets herself she walks out

969
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 2: against medical advice because her reaction to being told you

970
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:50,280
Speaker 2: could die unless you stay here and we run immediate

971
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,400
Speaker 2: test was I want to go home, So.

972
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:56,759
Speaker 1: I'm not going to help anyone get away of murder.

973
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 1: But these are not the things that help you get

974
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 1: away of murder. But when you see that vision on mine,

975
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 1: if you find it, the ambulance in the background is

976
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:07,320
Speaker 1: the one that's going to be taking in Heather to

977
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 1: Dandenol hospital, right because they're getting worse and errands, and

978
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 1: Aaron's walking out to go and make sure the dog's fed.

979
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 1: And you know, the daughter's got ballet organized, and she's

980
00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 1: already fed the leftovers to the kids kids, and she's

981
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:24,759
Speaker 1: just claiming you don't have to check them because I

982
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 1: scraped the mushrooms off.

983
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 2: And the doctor's going, well, you don't know if you've

984
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:33,120
Speaker 2: got everything. It only takes a minuscule amount. And if

985
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:36,880
Speaker 2: you're a parent, and you were this was a terrible accident,

986
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 2: it's hard not to think your first reaction on being

987
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 2: told this would be, God, I'm going to call the

988
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 2: school and get them in here and get them checked.

989
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:49,759
Speaker 1: YEA, surely, And she is this when the this is

990
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:52,800
Speaker 1: where she lost me like I had the benefit of

991
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 1: the doubt at the moment. And this is not from

992
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:58,200
Speaker 1: the trial transcripts. This is from when it was reported

993
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:01,200
Speaker 1: in the media. I bought the mush rooms from I

994
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:05,279
Speaker 1: don't know, there was an Asian food store. Yeah, and

995
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:07,840
Speaker 1: to me that was a gotcha moment in my mind.

996
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:10,760
Speaker 1: I thought, Okay, well there's no if there was any doubt,

997
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:15,480
Speaker 1: But that's what she was telling the medical staff and health.

998
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:20,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, from the very beginning, she was surprised. The prosecution

999
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:23,720
Speaker 2: team make a point, and I think they're right, particularly

1000
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 2: now we know so much more about those first three

1001
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:28,799
Speaker 2: attempted burdens. What shocked there in the most was how

1002
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:32,360
Speaker 2: fast the medical team knew got onto it that it

1003
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:35,320
Speaker 2: was deathcap mushrooms with the problem. And yes, from the

1004
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:38,240
Speaker 2: very beginning she's sang, but it was button mushrooms from Woolies,

1005
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:45,400
Speaker 2: sliced button mushrooms and dried mushrooms from an Asian grosser

1006
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 2: in Oakley or Mount Waverley. And then she thinks could

1007
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:54,200
Speaker 2: have been Glen Waverley. And there's another suburb. There's four

1008
00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:56,840
Speaker 2: of them that she mentions, and these were all the

1009
00:55:56,840 --> 00:56:01,240
Speaker 2: suburbs around the unit that the kids and she stayed

1010
00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:03,839
Speaker 2: at during the school holitay. She had a vague idea

1011
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:05,640
Speaker 2: of the area. She had a vague idea of the area.

1012
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 2: She knew there are a lot of Asian grosses there,

1013
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 2: but could not remember anything.

1014
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 1: There was some selective memory because she could remember the package,

1015
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:19,439
Speaker 1: could the packaging, but couldn't remember the shore.

1016
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:23,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, couldn't describe the shop at all, but could describe

1017
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:26,720
Speaker 2: the packaging, which was clear. It wasn't didn't have a commercial.

1018
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 1: Brand name on it.

1019
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:29,839
Speaker 2: It had a label and maybe it used by date

1020
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:33,920
Speaker 2: or whatever, and it said something like wild forest mushrooms

1021
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:36,120
Speaker 2: or she was a bit vague, but something like that.

1022
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:39,799
Speaker 1: Yeah. Lied with enough ring of truth, enough ring a truth,

1023
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:42,319
Speaker 1: but hard to investigate, groborate one way of the other.

1024
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:43,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they never could.

1025
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:47,120
Speaker 1: When did the police get know the five of these

1026
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:48,200
Speaker 1: people that turned up?

1027
00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:53,279
Speaker 2: This was mon so Mondays, the thirty first, So I

1028
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:56,839
Speaker 2: think it's the Tuesday, Yeah, the first. So by now

1029
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:01,439
Speaker 2: Ian and Heather are at danden On Hospital in care Don,

1030
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:04,759
Speaker 2: and Gale have gone to the Austin which is the

1031
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:09,719
Speaker 2: top it's the liver transplant hospital in Melbourne and I

1032
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:11,920
Speaker 2: think I'd have to go back and double check, but

1033
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:14,800
Speaker 2: I think it's that first, that Tuesday. The first is

1034
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:21,360
Speaker 2: when it's called the Basque cost Criminal unit in rural Victoria.

1035
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:26,520
Speaker 2: They call Homicide at VIC Bolt headquarters in Spence Street

1036
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 2: and say, look, we've got four people in intensive care

1037
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:34,640
Speaker 2: and one who doesn't want to come and be treated.

1038
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:39,000
Speaker 1: And I keep laughing and I shouldn't, I really shouldn't.

1039
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 2: And in the end Erin did go to Monash Hospital

1040
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 2: for a day. She had low potassium. They gave us

1041
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:51,240
Speaker 2: some supplements overnight to bring a potassium level up. They

1042
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:54,200
Speaker 2: had lots of evidence at the trial to suggest that

1043
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 2: she had some form of small amount of diarrhea, but

1044
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 2: who knows, as could have taken a laxative whatever, no

1045
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:06,360
Speaker 2: liver damage whatsoever. And she was she was released on

1046
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:10,680
Speaker 2: that Tuesday. So's she's being driven home with the kids

1047
00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 2: by the childcare worker while Don and Gail are in

1048
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:20,800
Speaker 2: the Austin at the top transplant Hospital Melbourne in and

1049
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:23,400
Speaker 2: here they are about to get there, and that's when

1050
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:26,280
Speaker 2: Homicide get called and say you might want to keep

1051
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 2: this on your radar.

1052
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:32,640
Speaker 1: Okay, well, thousand questions, but that's what we're going to

1053
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:34,760
Speaker 1: delve into in the In the next part, we might

1054
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:37,040
Speaker 1: take a break now and then we're going to look

1055
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:41,440
Speaker 1: at the police investigation and the trial and some of

1056
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,520
Speaker 1: the things that came out in the trial that the

1057
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:48,840
Speaker 1: defense tried to rebut and some of the overwhelming evidence

1058
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:55,240
Speaker 1: and work out why you're dura. Mate, decided that we've

1059
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:55,960
Speaker 1: got a killer here.

1060
00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:57,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, okay.

1061
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:05,080
Speaker 1: Back Shortly the back net dis