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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for downloading the show. This is

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Speaker 1: better than yesterday. Look at us. We're here together. You've

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Speaker 1: got me in your ear holes and you're doing whatever

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Speaker 1: it is you're doing. My name's Osha Ginsburg. And if

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Speaker 1: you've ever been here before, this is a podcast that

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Speaker 1: is here to make your day to day better than yesterday.

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Speaker 1: And it's been doing it every week since twenty thirteen,

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Speaker 1: in the olden days when podcasts were on cassettes and

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Speaker 1: talered by steam. I'm glad you're here. It's the summer.

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Speaker 1: I hope whatever you're doing is lovely. I hope you're

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Speaker 1: getting a break. We've got a break planned, and you're

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Speaker 1: with people who don't annoy you too much, and you're

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Speaker 1: making some memories with the people you care about. I

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Speaker 1: hope you're getting a break, because the team here at

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Speaker 1: the show we all need a break and we're having

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Speaker 1: one right now. But I didn't want to leave you

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Speaker 1: empty handed today, So we're going back through the over

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Speaker 1: twelve years of episodes for conversations that will give you

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Speaker 1: a little something, something spicy to throw in over a

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Speaker 1: dinner table conversation or a lunch conversation, or a handing

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Speaker 1: out a Sosha sesel in a park today and this

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Speaker 1: one's a doozy man. Today, we are to get our

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Speaker 1: brains expanded by Professor George Paxinos. He is a leading

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Speaker 1: global neuroscientist who has mapped more parts of the human

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Speaker 1: brain than anyone in history. The man is the cartographer

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Speaker 1: of note, he is the cornerstone. He's the Oxford Dictionary

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Speaker 1: of what it is that goes on between our ears.

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Speaker 1: His groundbreaking work of mapping the human brain has reshaped

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Speaker 1: our understanding of the brain and of human behavior. And

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Speaker 1: in this episode that I'm going to share with you today,

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Speaker 1: we're going to focus on one topic which he really

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Speaker 1: loves and is very intriguing, Vie. But it's a cornerstone

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Speaker 1: of part of his work is free will and illusion.

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Speaker 1: Are we truly in control of our decisions? Or are

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Speaker 1: we simply products of our genetics and our environment. They're

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Speaker 1: big questions and I was left shaking and wondering what

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Speaker 1: was going on once I finished talking to George, and

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Speaker 1: it was being a good way in a good way.

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Speaker 1: But I hope you get a little bit of that today,

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Speaker 1: because free will is a concept that many of us

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Speaker 1: take for granted. We all believe as humans. I am

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Speaker 1: here because I chose the things that got me here.

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Speaker 1: I chose when I got out of bed, I chose

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Speaker 1: what you know I had for breakfast. I chose where

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Speaker 1: I went today. However, is it as straightforward? Is that?

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Speaker 1: We're going to kick off with Professor George Pasonaz introducing

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Speaker 1: the idea that our choices may not be as free

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Speaker 1: as they seem. And I wanted to know just to start,

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Speaker 1: what's the role of genetics an environment in shaping the

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Speaker 1: choices we make in the behavior that we have.

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Speaker 2: And what we do is provide the maps so that

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Speaker 2: they can navigate seamlessly between the brain of humans in

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Speaker 2: the experiment of the learning must have descate both disease inspired

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Speaker 2: by human considerations and relate their observations back to the

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Speaker 2: human It's really like UbD a city, or if you

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Speaker 2: want to elevate it, a Google map in three D.

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Speaker 2: In case, because the brain is a two dimensional object.

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Speaker 1: I think about, you know, my my brain one three

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Speaker 1: hundred grams. It's so different from a rat brain. But

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Speaker 1: then when I think about some of the some of

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Speaker 1: the modeling, some of the mechanistic data that comes out

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Speaker 1: of experiments on rats. You know, I mean, George, I'm

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Speaker 1: twelve years sober now, and when I first read about

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Speaker 1: the Skinner Box, I was like, okay, yes, Like it

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Speaker 1: makes complete sense, complete sense to me that maybe I'm

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Speaker 1: not that different after all, maybe I'm driven by something

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Speaker 1: not at all divine, just something is quite base, quite base.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean the point of Skinner And I

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Speaker 2: had the pleasure of meeting him. I invited him to

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Speaker 2: give a talk at McGill University and I was yeah,

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Speaker 2: when I was a graduate student running the colloquial in

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Speaker 2: psychology at McGill. And the point that he made is

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Speaker 2: that our behavior is the outcome of two and only

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Speaker 2: two factors. Genetic endowment, over which of course we have

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Speaker 2: no choice, and the environmental influences on it, which is

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Speaker 2: whether your mother was smoking, whether you were born in

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Speaker 2: this society or another society, whether they forced you in

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Speaker 2: this religion or in another religion. And consequently there is

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Speaker 2: no freedom whatsoever. His book is beyond freedom and dignity,

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Speaker 2: that is, we are genes that are sculpted by the environment,

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Speaker 2: much like Well, in fact, I wrote a book that

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Speaker 2: I think You've come across River Divided, which is idea

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Speaker 2: identical twins raised apart, much like two different artists would

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Speaker 2: scult different statues from the same block of marble. Different

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Speaker 2: environments produce different characters, even in identical twins. So yes,

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Speaker 2: this is what the psychologists say. By and large, I

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Speaker 2: mean there are some euroscientists who have a different view,

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Speaker 2: and they think that there's a modicum of free will

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Speaker 2: somewhere freedom light, Coca cola light. But by and large,

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Speaker 2: neuroscientists think that we are the product of our genetic

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Speaker 2: endowment and our genes, and there's no crevice in the

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Speaker 2: march genes, environment, genes, environment for free will to wiggle in.

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Speaker 1: So there you go. Professor George Paksonos is just simply

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Speaker 1: saying that free will is an illusion. How do you feel?

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Speaker 1: It's fascinating, it's unsettling, but it really when I heard

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Speaker 1: that the first time, it challenged the way that I

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Speaker 1: thought about my choices and the factors that influenced my choices.

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Speaker 1: I love the analogy has there of artists sculpting statues

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Speaker 1: from the same block of marble. It's a powerful way

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Speaker 1: to understand how our environment shapes us, even when we

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Speaker 1: have the same genetic makeup. The next part is talking

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Speaker 1: about something that is important for all of us, and

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Speaker 1: certainly this Timy here. It's love. It's often seen as

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Speaker 1: one of the most personal, most intimate experiences. But what

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Speaker 1: if our feelings of love are entirely not within our control?

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Speaker 1: In this little bit, George talks about how free will,

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Speaker 1: or the lack of free will, manifests when it comes

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Speaker 1: to things like love.

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Speaker 2: I can bring you an ex love an indication of

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Speaker 2: lack of free will in one domain of life in love. Now,

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Speaker 2: in love, you might have heard of people saying I

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Speaker 2: want to get rid of my love for this person,

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Speaker 2: but I can't. Am I correct? Have you heard that?

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Speaker 2: Maybe you have even fled it yourself.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, say, for example, you're with someone that you know

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Speaker 1: is I can relate. I've been in a relationship with

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Speaker 1: someone who is completely inappropriate for me. It wasn't right

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Speaker 1: and it was very difficult to change my feelings for

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Speaker 1: this person.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. If you had free will over the domain of love,

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Speaker 2: then you should be able to just transfer your emotions

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Speaker 2: to someone who is more appropriate to you, who feels

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Speaker 2: the love you've got, the paradox of those who are

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Speaker 2: abandoned interfering with the person who abandoned them at their home,

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Speaker 2: the internet, the work. They might hit her, they might

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Speaker 2: kill her, they might commit suicide. Before they would accept

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Speaker 2: the love of someone who loves them and forget about

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Speaker 2: this person who doesn't love them anymore. They also don't

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Speaker 2: realize because they have listened to the neuroscientists that much

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Speaker 2: like they cannot jettison a love that torments them, the

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Speaker 2: other person, the object of their love, cannot make themselves

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Speaker 2: love them. You fall in love, and this is of

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Speaker 2: course one domain. But if you look at other domains,

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Speaker 2: who would not like to get rid of undesirable desires,

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Speaker 2: of obsessions, compulsions. The puppet is free. We are puppets

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Speaker 2: of our brain, and we are free only to the

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Speaker 2: extent that we love our strings, said Sam Harris.

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Speaker 1: Are you doing okay? Do you need a couple of

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Speaker 1: big breaths? There's some deep stuff here. Everything's fine, Like

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Speaker 1: we're still the same people. You and I are both

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Speaker 1: the same people when we started this conversation. But there's

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Speaker 1: some new information here that those insights about love and

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Speaker 1: free will there are just so profound. But also really

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Speaker 1: I get it. His explanation of how we are just

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Speaker 1: puppets of our own brain, and how we're really only

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Speaker 1: free to the extent that we love the strings of

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Speaker 1: our you know, as a Marian Anne, how much we

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Speaker 1: love our strings. That's a striking way to think about

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Speaker 1: what drives our emotions and what drives our decisions. I've

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Speaker 1: got one more little bit to really Benj a noodle,

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Speaker 1: litle bit of the conversation to really benj noodle in

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Speaker 1: a moment, but I do need to take a break

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Speaker 1: just quickly. I want to tell you about story Club.

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Speaker 1: If you want something that's not going to blow your

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Speaker 1: mind and shake your definition of reality and choice to

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Speaker 1: the call, like this conversation is. Story Club is a

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Speaker 1: live storytelling show what I produce it. It's been running

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Speaker 1: for years, but I've taken over producing it just every

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Speaker 1: year ago. It's a live storytelling show I run once

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Speaker 1: a month in Sydney and it's got some of the

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Speaker 1: most fantastic storytellers, most well known storytellers and recontours in

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Speaker 1: the country. And there's only two rules. The story's got

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Speaker 1: to be true and the story has got to be

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Speaker 1: less than fifteen hundred words. So if you're looking for

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Speaker 1: something to watch, they're only about any bird team ten

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Speaker 1: and fifteen minutes long. If you look for something to

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Speaker 1: watch that isn't another American show or another British show,

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Speaker 1: they're true stories. It's on YouTube. The links are in

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Speaker 1: the show notes. You can grab that. If you're looking

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Speaker 1: for something to read, well, I got two ideas for you.

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Speaker 1: My first book came my second book, so back after

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Speaker 1: the break and so what now? What? Are both available?

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Speaker 1: They make great gifts. They're great to read, great summer

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Speaker 1: reading on both hands. So what now? What is a

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Speaker 1: really good gift to give to somebody that you care about.

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Speaker 1: It's also a useful toolkit. I know people who carried

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Speaker 1: around like a first aid box in their car because

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Speaker 1: it's a really useful toolkit to have with you. Both

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Speaker 1: are available right now and the links in the show notes.

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Speaker 1: We're back in a moment with George Paxinos. And if

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Speaker 1: you think, when you found out just then that your

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Speaker 1: lack of free will affects you, wait till we hear

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Speaker 1: how he talks about how free will, or really the

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Speaker 1: lack of free will, affects a society as a whole.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the show. We're talking with Professor

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Speaker 1: George Pasenos today. He is an incredible neuroscientist who has

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Speaker 1: mapped more parts of the human brain than anyone in history.

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Speaker 1: There's nothing he doesn't know about the brain he named

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Speaker 1: and time we hear doctor Andrew human and name and

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Speaker 1: region of the brain, it's because George Pacson has named it,

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Speaker 1: all right. The guy is incredible. So if free will,

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Speaker 1: as we've discussed already, if free will is an illusion,

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Speaker 1: what does that mean for us in our culture, in

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Speaker 1: our society, in our community. So in this little bit,

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Speaker 1: George explores how environment and genetics not only shape us

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Speaker 1: as humans, but also entire nations and entire civilizations.

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Speaker 2: That's right, there would be cultures that would produce there's

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Speaker 2: eight guys, the the spirit of the time. If I

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Speaker 2: could give you, bring you an example of a country

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Speaker 2: that followed the path which was destructive to them in

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Speaker 2: two durs of the world, Germany during the war before

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Speaker 2: and during the war DNA. In fact, the same people,

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Speaker 2: their children and many of the same people live now

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Speaker 2: in Germany. And Germany is one of the best citizens

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Speaker 2: in the world as it concerns the environment, and they

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Speaker 2: have reneged on the Nazi past. So you can have

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Speaker 2: the environment induce certain things if you and I were

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Speaker 2: born in a country where these stoned women for allegedly

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Speaker 2: burning their holy books, You and I would have equal

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Speaker 2: probability in participating in the stony as people born there. Now,

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Speaker 2: if we accept that, then it is an indication that

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Speaker 2: we are products of our genes and our environments. And

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Speaker 2: in these things you have the same genes in Germany

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Speaker 2: having different outcome depending on the circumstances around them. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: the self determination and all that, the tribalism in many

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Speaker 2: ways that this tendency is Many people have commented, of

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Speaker 2: course evolutionary biologists on these things, that it was adaptive

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Speaker 2: for the early stages of humanity, when allegiance to the

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Speaker 2: tribe will give you the protection of the tribe. And now,

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Speaker 2: of course this is counterproductive, and you have the paradox

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Speaker 2: of species that consider itself itself sapient, sapient that is

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Speaker 2: clever to arm with nuclear weapons that are capable of

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Speaker 2: destroying whole planet put in trump Kimil. If we reflect

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Speaker 2: back on the human the only explanation I can see

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Speaker 2: is that really is that we are a primate that

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Speaker 2: has a brain that is large enough to cause some problems,

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Speaker 2: but not large enough to understand the problems. That is,

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Speaker 2: our brain is not in the Goldilocks zone. You're familiar

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Speaker 2: with the concept of the earth being in the habitable

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Speaker 2: zone around the sun. But if our brain the syllogism

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Speaker 2: that I have not written in the novel that I

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Speaker 2: wrote is that if the brain were smaller than what

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Speaker 2: it is, it would not have been able to produce

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Speaker 2: the signs that they produced the technologies that threatens existence.

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Speaker 2: If from the other foundily brain were larger than what

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Speaker 2: this it might have been able to understand the problem.

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Speaker 2: Even sold the brain is just not the right size.

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Speaker 1: So you probably work up this morning not thinking that

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Speaker 1: you would think how you do now about free will.

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Speaker 1: But if what George has just talked about has taught

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Speaker 1: us anything, is that it doesn't matter whether you did

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Speaker 1: or not, it was going to happen. I do love there.

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Speaker 1: How he talks about how genetics and environment really can

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Speaker 1: shape it ento our culture, and it's quite challenging, but

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Speaker 1: it's important to rethink our assumptions about human behavior, our behavior,

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Speaker 1: behavior in others, but also in progress and why societies

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Speaker 1: make progress in certain aspects and you know facts perhaps

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Speaker 1: like in women's rights or the rights of children and

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Speaker 1: not others, for example in reliance on fossil fuels. Thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for listening. Professor George Paxinos is a

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Speaker 1: gem of a human being and I'm so gratefully came

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Speaker 1: on the show. It was one of the most profound

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Speaker 1: conversations I've had in my life. There's so much more

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Speaker 1: of it, so if you if you're ready to hold

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Speaker 1: on with both hands and have a listen, you can

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Speaker 1: scroll back in the podcast feed and check it out.

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Speaker 1: He has this there's this whole bit where he talks

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Speaker 1: about his pilates reformer and his bicycle. I talked to

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Speaker 1: him in Greece and the guy was I think he

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Speaker 1: was seventy two or seventy three at the time when

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Speaker 1: we chatted, and inspiration. I want to be here when

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Speaker 1: I grow up. Thank you so much for listening to

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Speaker 1: the show. Wherever you are, I'd love to see where

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Speaker 1: you're listening. Send me a photo, send us her email

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Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. You know where you're doing the laundry,

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Speaker 1: you walking the dog, doing the garden, digging the weeds.

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Speaker 1: I don't care. It's fascinating to see where you're listening

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Speaker 1: to the show. Send us a email at gmail dot

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Speaker 1: com just take a photo. Email Temmy, have a fantastic

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Speaker 1: day and I'll see you back here shortly