1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:03,559 Speaker 1: It's always there in the background, what you've been through. 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: Even now, when somebody knocks on the door, you know, 3 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: if I don't know who's coming, it's I was a 4 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 1: bit of a shock, even though I've got nothing anything 5 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: to worry about. I've not done a single things as 6 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: I came out, but it's still there, that constant thing 7 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: of looking behind you back. 8 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 2: Hey there, Today we're bringing you the first I had 9 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 2: two bonus episodes. While making the series, David got in 10 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 2: touch with one of his contacts, Stephen me. Stephen's a 11 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,599 Speaker 2: reformed criminal who once helped run one of Europe's biggest 12 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 2: cocaine operations in the nineties, from making business deals with 13 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 2: the infamous Cali cartel to escaping from prison, Stephen's insight 14 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 2: into how global cocaine trafficking worked during the trades burgeoning 15 00:00:54,000 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 2: years is well worth a listen. I'm Fiona Hamilton and 16 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:10,320 Speaker 2: from The Times for Sunday Times and Newsical Australia. This 17 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 2: is Cocaine Inc. Episode nine, The Artist. 18 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 3: Hi, Stephen, David, You're right, I'm here, but I'm I've 19 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 3: come to where the post code is I think is it? 20 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 3: I've come to an industrial estate on the outskirts of 21 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 3: Manchester to meet Stephen met good to see you. Stephen 22 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 3: is in his mid sixties. He's bold, stocky and looks 23 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 3: like a pretty typical bloke you'd see on any high 24 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 3: street around the UK. You could say a bit of 25 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 3: a gruff exterior. I'll go on if that's all right, 26 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 3: just to take. But he's also very friendly, accommodating, gentle 27 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 3: even these days he's a vegan. I'm here with Will, 28 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 3: one of the executive producers on this series. 29 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: A bit black, Is that all right? I do? 30 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 3: Like Sawyer. No meeting Stephen now, it's a far cry 31 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 3: from his former life. Stephen was born in nineteen fifty 32 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 3: eight in Newton Heath, an area of northeast Manchester. As 33 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,359 Speaker 3: a young boy, he was involved in petty crime. By 34 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 3: the eighties, he moved to the Netherlands, got into the 35 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 3: cannabis trade and soon moved on to smuggling cocaine. Then 36 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 3: in the nineties, Stephen teamed up with an infamous Liverpudlian 37 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:55,239 Speaker 3: drug lord Curtis Warren, who was known as the Cocky Watchman, 38 00:02:55,639 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 3: the Teflong Gangster, and Britain's Pablo Escobar to get Stephen 39 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 3: and Warren ran one of Europe's biggest drug trafficking operations. 40 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 3: Eventually the law caught up with Stephen and he went 41 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 3: to jail for sixteen and a half years. He's no 42 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 3: longer involved in crime and these days he's a professional artist. 43 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:23,799 Speaker 3: Is this all your studio? Then leading us into his studio, 44 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 3: there's a big comfy sofa with lots of cushions and 45 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 3: a twenty four hour news channel was playing on the TV. 46 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: Well, we turn it off. 47 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 3: I'll just put it down. It's all right. There are 48 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 3: dozens of canvases, colorful portraits, pop culture references with a 49 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 3: hint of surrealism and abstract landscapes. It's the first time 50 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 3: I've been to this studio. 51 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: It's a painting that's earn good money from with people 52 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: like it. Yeah, that one there is the original one 53 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: that are painted in a really trippy That's a shame. 54 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 3: Stephen's had solo exhibitions in London. He's won awards. He's 55 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 3: hoping to release a book of illustrations. His art also 56 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 3: reflects his years in prison, where he would paint portraits 57 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:17,119 Speaker 3: of other inmates. 58 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: Donald Nielsen, how was he barber for about five years? 59 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: When I first got there in a response to anybody, 60 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: he should just go go in his cell and you 61 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: should go on the exercise yard for two three hours 62 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: and march because he was a proper soldier type of person. 63 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 3: Donald Nielsen was a prolific burglar, kidnapper and murderer, mainly 64 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 3: in the north of England. He was nicknamed the Black Panther. 65 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 3: His most notorious crime was in nineteen seventy five, when 66 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 3: he kidnapped and murdered a seventeen year old girl. Leslie Whittle. 67 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 3: Stephens says when he knew him, he was an old man, 68 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 3: emaciated and close to death. 69 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 1: I was a wing barber, so he used to come. 70 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: He used to cut his hair, and then eventually he 71 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 1: he caught more your own disease. And then he agreed 72 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: that I could paint his portrait. And he had to 73 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 1: carry him up the stairs and prop him up in 74 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 1: the corner the way the picture shows, and. 75 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 3: Just can you just visually talk me through what you're 76 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 3: looking at and how you painted it, and just describe 77 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:28,799 Speaker 3: it to a listener that that's will asking the question. 78 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: There, Yeah, paint a picture. I did a few sketches, 79 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 1: got a little black panther in the top corner to 80 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,479 Speaker 1: depict two ears, to put the decayne through to show 81 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: end of life. And on the right you've got the 82 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: single bed and a little table. On the left got 83 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:46,239 Speaker 1: the big bars behind it, and then you've got Donald. 84 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:49,679 Speaker 1: I think he weighed about forty five kilo at the time, 85 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: and I'll never sell it, but I will donate it. 86 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: Why did not like it two years? He's a monster. 87 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: It's like putting a picture of adol fit lit up 88 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 1: in your You knows not as bad as him, but 89 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: he was on the lines. 90 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 3: So why do you paint it if you don't like 91 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 3: to capture the image. 92 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: It was a one off thing, and I knew about 93 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: Multideo's I knew he only had amount of time left 94 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: and nobody had ever managed to take pictures of him. 95 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 3: After showing some of his portraits, Stephen and I sit 96 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:26,599 Speaker 3: down in his studio to chat about his life and 97 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 3: how he once ran a cocaine smuggling business. Let's begin 98 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 3: with an incident in nineteen ninety six, when Stephen was 99 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 3: in bo Guitar, the Colombian capital. 100 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: A meeting was arranged for me to go and meet Lucco, 101 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: the head of the Calicato and I bought Luco a 102 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: wire mechanism that he could move for directors to play with, 103 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 1: and you could move it about and he'd make different 104 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 1: shapes and all that. And I bought that to give 105 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,080 Speaker 1: him as a gift, because I was told that you 106 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: should always take a gift to Colombians if you're going 107 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: to meet them. 108 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 3: The Cali Cartel is one of the most notorious and 109 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 3: influential organized crime groups in history. As Pablo Escobar's Medeyin 110 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 3: cartel imploded, the Karli Cartel rose up to take control 111 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 3: of the cocaine market. At the height of the group's power, 112 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 3: they controlled ninety percent of the coach coming into Europe. 113 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 3: A nineteen ninety one cover story for Time magazine described 114 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 3: police referring to the leaders as lost cabieros, the gentleman 115 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 3: of Karli. 116 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: It was like a board meeting. They've got their own directors. 117 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: You know, people might see cocaine as people in the corner, 118 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: But when I've gone into this boardroom, it's a boardroom 119 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: at the top of a multi story shopping center, and 120 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: we're watching about six top Columbians. I've got my translator there. 121 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: First thing they wanted to know was what happened to 122 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: the cocaine. So three thousand kilos they're asking about. 123 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 3: Before Steven got to Columbia, three thousand kilograms had gone 124 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 3: missing on the way to Europe. The cartel wanted accountability. 125 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 3: As the conversation went on, Stephen and the translator started 126 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 3: to get nervous. 127 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: So I've had to explain where I've come from. They're saying, 128 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: how do it get it? So I've told them everything 129 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: about you know, you can check the papers and you 130 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: can check who I am. And you've got these people 131 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:37,440 Speaker 1: walking in and out coming back whispering in there. Tell him, yeah, 132 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: that was in. He got nited for this, and we 133 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: know about that. This Columbians telling me. And he's nudging me, 134 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: you know, because he's panicking as well now because this 135 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 1: could be just a meeting or it could be an 136 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: assassination meeting for the three thousand kilo and Lucho sat 137 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: there all suited up and everything. These are all immaculately 138 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: dressed with top suits on. You know, you've seen the films, 139 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 1: that's what they look like. 140 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 3: Steven's talking about the Carly cartel leader Louis and al 141 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 3: Doak Guissino but Terra. He calls him by his nickname 142 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 3: Lucho Palmira. 143 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: And the meeting went on a lot of mumbling on 144 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,719 Speaker 1: me giving references about what happened and timeline as best 145 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,439 Speaker 1: as I knew, But they also knew that I wasn't 146 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: involved in it. I only came into it afterwards. But 147 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: I was the first one there to explain what had 148 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: happened to the three thousand Kiro. Everybody else was still 149 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: even nipped or in prison. So that was a scary 150 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: moment at. 151 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 3: The back of your mind as you're on the plane 152 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 3: on the way to Bogatar. Yeah, you must have been 153 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 3: thinking to yourself. I am the first person in I 154 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:48,319 Speaker 3: know if I got to explain myself. 155 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: I didn't think I was going there to explain anything. 156 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 1: I thought I was going there to create a deal. 157 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 1: And it was all within twenty minutes or something, you know. 158 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: He said, yeah, okay, well what's going on now? And 159 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,199 Speaker 1: then it just literally went into well what have you 160 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: come for? What have you got now? We've got transport, 161 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 1: got this, et cetera. 162 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 3: But do you think that twenty minutes basically decided whether 163 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 3: you would live or die? 164 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: Yeah? 165 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 3: What did your childhood look like? Stephen Kind? Of growing up, well, 166 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 3: there was. 167 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: Nine of us, nine kids. It was a big family. 168 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 1: We grew up in a place called Newtonnis, which was 169 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 1: a poor area. I was born in the corner of 170 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 1: the house. I literally fell out of my ma'am so 171 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: I was I think the fifth fifth along. She got 172 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:47,679 Speaker 1: up from one chair and went to another, and I 173 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: was born, fell on my head apparently, but a weighed 174 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: thirteen pound twelve ounces, So I was a monster of 175 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: a kid. My dad always worked, but my man was 176 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 1: a She had Parkinson's and it was an alcoholic so 177 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: the combination of the Parkings and drugs and alcohol was horrendous. 178 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: She'd go miss him for days on end. She used 179 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: to send us shopping with a fiver and give us 180 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 1: a shopping list for the tenor sort of thing, and 181 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:18,839 Speaker 1: if we didn't come home with the goods, we used 182 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: to get battered off for her, you know, because she 183 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 1: was either always drunk order that sort of offer head on. 184 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 1: These really strong chemicals and shotling became a normal thing 185 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: for mer. Me and my younger brother and sister used 186 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: to go about with one of them all trolleys, remember them, 187 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: Tartan trolleys that used to pull along We had a 188 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 1: little compartment in the bottom and we used to put 189 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: the food in and hide it under there. And then 190 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 1: this is eight years old. They was seven and six, 191 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: so it was it's done out having necessed and my 192 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 1: dad never knew about any of this, but we used 193 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: to steal as much as we could and that gave 194 00:11:58,960 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: us food as well. 195 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:01,079 Speaker 3: What did your dad do? 196 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: Dad was an electrician. Yeah, he had a good job. 197 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: He ended up working for the railway for thirty years 198 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: or something. It was quite high up in the railway back. 199 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 3: Lad And what were you like at school? 200 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: Apparently terror? I suppose I became a criminal at a 201 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: very early age. Nine. I think was my first registered 202 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: warning and conviction was at nine for burglar me on 203 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 1: primary school. On my own, I got caught for stealing 204 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: cars when I was thirteen. I stole the Lord Mayor's 205 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: car from Oldham from off the top of Saddle with 206 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: more that I'd gone down to a club in Manchester 207 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: called the Reno. Been in there at thirteen years old 208 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: and came out, stole another car to get home with 209 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: fell asleep in the car and got woke up by 210 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: a local bobby from the police station. Sergeant with a 211 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: few his mates. He kicked us all the way down 212 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,319 Speaker 1: the hill to the police station and formed my dad O. 213 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:06,959 Speaker 1: My dad kicked me all the way home. My maam 214 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: kicked me all the way to bedroom. So it was 215 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:12,319 Speaker 1: violent times. 216 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 3: What do you think was the trigger for you in 217 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 3: terms of escalating from the shop lifting, then the stealing 218 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 3: of the cars and then what got you into the 219 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 3: drugs trade? 220 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: Well, the first smuggle we stole cars, so I got 221 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: a few grands together for that and decided to go 222 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 1: to Holland because I started seeing people smoking cannabis for 223 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: the first time that was eighty two I think it was, 224 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: and seeing what sort of money was paying for this stuff, 225 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,959 Speaker 1: and three of us went over. I supplied the money 226 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: and was sort of the boss of it. We went 227 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 1: to Felix Stone, got them three day passports years ago 228 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: we could just get him at the dock, and went 229 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: to Amsterdam and started walking in coffee shops and asking 230 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 1: him could we buy a kilo of cannabis? And we 231 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 1: got chased out of about ten of them, and we 232 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: ended up with the Els Angels. They sold us a 233 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:18,959 Speaker 1: kilo and we brought it back sold it more or 234 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: less instantly in bits made about five thousand pounds out 235 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: of it. We paid thirteen hunder quid for it at 236 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: the time, which was a lot of money, but it 237 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: was good quality. And then we went back and did 238 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: the same again, doubled it up, and went back and 239 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: doubled that up, and doubled that up, and kept on 240 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: doubling it up, and then started selling it into Germany 241 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: as well. And then when I got to the eighty seven, 242 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: I think it was did the cocaine smuggle? That's when 243 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:45,119 Speaker 1: it all I expanded. 244 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 3: And why did you move from the marauama to cocaine 245 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 3: the opportunity. 246 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: I wasn't involved in cocaine, and somebody offered me a 247 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: job to carry from Ecuador to Europe, and I went 248 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: for it. I carried twenty four kilo through and because 249 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: of the contacts had built up doing the cannabis, I 250 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: ended up with people in France, Switzerland, and I ended 251 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: up taking all my stuff and everybody else's stuff down 252 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: all through Europe and Switzerland. 253 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 3: How did you take twenty four kilous three from Ecuador? 254 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 3: How did that work? 255 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: I was all completely corrupting those days. It was organized 256 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: by the Ecuadorian side, by the military. I think it 257 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: was a two star generally who took my bag onto 258 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: the plane. I took it to the airport, and so 259 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: I walked it in the airport and then they were 260 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: stood there while it was being put on, and they 261 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: followed it all the way on to the plane. So 262 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: they made it safe on that side of it. And 263 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: then you just had to kamakaze it through the customs. 264 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: So when it come off the European side, it just 265 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: went onto the carousel, so you had to walk up 266 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: and pick it up like anybody else one bag. So 267 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 1: I got a trolley put it on I had. I 268 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: was suited up and everything, had a proper briefcase, and 269 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: I devised my own little plan where I was going 270 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: to drop my briefcase in front of the customs. So 271 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: I opened my briefcase out and all pens fell out 272 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: all over right, which distracted. Well, I thought it did. 273 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 1: Just shut up to the obviously, because I got through 274 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: and I just had to walk through about eight customs 275 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: block down the middle, try not show any any fear. Obviously, 276 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: it worked and we got through. Well, it was in 277 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: the days I woul get nineteen eighty seven, they want 278 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: that much focus on cocaine and things like that. So 279 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: I got twenty four kilo through. Other people did it 280 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: and got twenty one kilo through, but there was nothing 281 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: in the case. It was just cocaine and a bit 282 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: of polystyrene form on the outside of it. So I 283 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: had re opened it, it would have been you won't even 284 00:16:58,000 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: pretend to clothes being in there. 285 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 3: It was just what did it feel like on the 286 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 3: other side as you arrived at the airport, what's going 287 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 3: through your mind? 288 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 1: Everything? Everything, I'm going to get Nate and going to 289 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: do this. But I calculated it before we even went, 290 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: you know, I thought, well, I forget Cartier bringing that through. 291 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: They're going to class me as a mule, which I was, 292 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: and I'll get three or four years if that. And 293 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: for that sort of risk at the time, I found 294 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: that well worth it. The only risk was the other side. 295 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 1: You know of lunatics in South America, But this side, 296 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: all is you going to do is take it into 297 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: the cells and that's it. You're going to do your sentence. 298 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,719 Speaker 1: So even though it's scary as you're doing it, and 299 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 1: you work out that, well, the risks are there to 300 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,719 Speaker 1: be taken. So it was a risk worth taking at 301 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 1: the time, and. 302 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 3: Just from that smuggle. From that point, how did it develop? 303 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 3: How did the cocaine business develop from that point? 304 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: Once you got back with that, the reputation had built 305 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,360 Speaker 1: up of the group that had done it, and how 306 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: all these come It's through reputation. But the thing at 307 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:08,640 Speaker 1: the time was that the Colombians wasn't formed properly. They've 308 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 1: got the cocaine, they've got the transport to get it 309 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: into Europe, but they didn't have the people to sell 310 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 1: it to. They could trust or they could literally just 311 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: sell it to. And I think that's where I came in. 312 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: You know, I just got people to come and pick 313 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,360 Speaker 1: it up, took it to a safe place, and then 314 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 1: sold it. We're in a matter of weeks, it was 315 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: gone and the next time they came, they came with 316 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: three thousand kilo. 317 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 3: Would you describe yourself? You were kind of a middleman 318 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 3: between street gangs that are selling it and the Colombians. 319 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 3: Were you the link in that chain? 320 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: No, I wasn't anywhere near any street gangs. I was 321 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: dealing with the big dealers in Holland. 322 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 3: And how would you collect up the money and give 323 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 3: it back to the Colombians? 324 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: Very careful by that time, we was at a certain 325 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 1: level and we had special houses just for money, which 326 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 1: people had sit there with guns and protected. We'd have 327 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: special houses separate for the cocaine. The Columbus had had 328 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: their own, and I used to take bim bags full 329 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: of money to certain places and there'd be Columbian people 330 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 1: there and they just say, I put it in there 331 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: with the rest of it. I only went once to 332 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: the moneyhouse, and it was just ridiculous. It was just 333 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 1: full of bags of money everywhere you look, just throwning. 334 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 1: But there was Columbians there with a grenades and machine guns, 335 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: so nobody's going to get in, and if they did 336 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: get in it caused such a mess. 337 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 3: How much would you say was going through millions. 338 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:43,239 Speaker 1: Wundreds of millions, hundreds of millions, thousands of kilos and 339 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 1: we were just one, you know. The amount of Columbians 340 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 1: that was trying to get it in was ridiculous. Even 341 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: when I was in bog Guitar with the Klik cartel, 342 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: I was still getting propositioned by other cartel leaders, can 343 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: you do it for us as well? But yeah, the 344 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,920 Speaker 1: money was just in binbags. Literally. 345 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 3: Did you spot a gap in the market, I guess 346 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 3: because you recognized that the Colombians couldn't distribute. Yeah, so 347 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 3: you identified a gap in the market and set up 348 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 3: a business. 349 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, when a Columbia, well known Colombian comes up 350 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 1: to you and says, we've got this, but we can't 351 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 1: sell it with someone like me that's just flashing lights 352 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: all the way through, you know there's a business here 353 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 1: these people. I've got the ability to bring it here, 354 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 1: but not the ability to sell it. Well, that didn't 355 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: last so long. That only lasted for about a year 356 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: or so, maybe two years, until they established themselves. It 357 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,640 Speaker 1: was perhaps to the end of the eighties and early 358 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: nineties that they started to organize themselves and get their 359 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: own groups. 360 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,640 Speaker 3: In the early nineteen nineties, Stephen was arrested for smuggling 361 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 3: cocaine and cannabis into England, but a couple of years later, 362 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 3: on his way to being sentenced at Manchester Crown Court, 363 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,439 Speaker 3: he would dec on me that made national headlines. 364 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,120 Speaker 1: It was a strange day and normally when you get 365 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: transported and we're talking about April the first, now nineteen 366 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 1: ninety three, So I was waiting all morning for the 367 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: transport to come and take us to sentencing and then 368 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: the coach had come to pick us up, but it 369 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: was an old coach, so you're talking about the old 370 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 1: things that you used to go to Blackpool in, you know, 371 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,160 Speaker 1: with a sloping back on it, so like a three 372 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 1: quarter coach, and were taken to court by the prison guards. 373 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: I was supposed to be attached to someone else who 374 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: was going to help me get off, and instead of 375 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 1: him attaching me and him together, which they've done for 376 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: a couple of years, me and him have been put together. 377 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden, this big guard came 378 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: from nowhere, fucking seven ten or something. He was he 379 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: was a monster, and attached this over lad to him, 380 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 1: and this other little lad has been attached to me. 381 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: It was nothing to do with anything. Took us outside 382 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 1: to the coach and I was on walking up the steps. 383 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: I told him something's going to happen in a bit, 384 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: and he just sort of mumbled and scurried up the stairs, 385 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 1: so armed. 386 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 3: To him, that's the prisoner you're attacked. 387 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, the prisoner I'm attached to. And I sat on 388 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: the window side so that the person in the car 389 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 1: could recognize it was me because I had a special 390 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: coat on. See all these things had to be planning 391 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: because his loads of coaches coming out all day long 392 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: getting there from prison, so they've got to know which one. 393 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: So there's a special mark on my coat. He spotted 394 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: it come out in front of the coach. So there's 395 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 1: one person in a car pulled out in front of 396 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 1: the coach. The coaches screeched to a halt. I jumped 397 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 1: up and shout, nobody move and me and this lad. 398 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: I dragged him to the front of the coach, pulled 399 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: the emergency exit. The doors were opened, and the guards 400 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: are still sat down, really. 401 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 3: Not doing anything. 402 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: I think I was about twenty one stone at the time, 403 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: of about eighteen percent body fat, so it was pretty big. 404 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: And the reputation was already there with the guards. The 405 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: guards are just earning money. They're not going to put 406 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: the lives. They didn't know what was going on. 407 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 3: And you've got handcuffs attached to gund cuffs, so you've 408 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 3: got to pull him with your right arm, and he 409 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 3: cuffed across you, so it's hard to pull him. 410 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,400 Speaker 1: Everything's pumping now and at you, adrenaline's going and everything. 411 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: They managed to get into the car. Guards had just 412 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 1: stood there, drove off changed car within a couple of 413 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 1: hundred meters, turn another car covered in the back, changed 414 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 1: to another car further up, and then taken to a 415 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 1: house in Toxster. But then the problem started again then 416 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: because the people who was receiving us in Toxstaff only 417 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: knew that they was picking up me and a black man. 418 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: That's all they knew. But now they've got two white men, 419 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: all right, So they don't know anything about anything because 420 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 1: they've not got contact with the people who are controlling anything. 421 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,679 Speaker 1: They've got a job to cut the cuffs off, and 422 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:03,120 Speaker 1: that's it. 423 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 3: And what's this lad who's attached to you? What's he's saying. 424 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: He's not saying anything. He's only a petty criminal. They're 425 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 1: arguing now what ought to do, whether to just drop 426 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,199 Speaker 1: us off somewhere and get rid of us, or to 427 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: cut the cuffs off. And I was screaming at fucking 428 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: each other, saying he got it wrong. They've got the 429 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: wrong people. And then one person and who's walked into 430 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 1: this melee and said, now that's right, he's right, get 431 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: rid of him, all right, So cut the cuffs off. 432 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: So he's free now in things, even though he didn't 433 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: want to be so he's phoned his girlfriend, She's come 434 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:38,640 Speaker 1: and picked him up. They've gone to a hotel, spent 435 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: the night together, and he's handed himself in the following morning. 436 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,679 Speaker 1: She got pregnant that night and she's had the baby 437 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 1: and everything. He went to court and got off with 438 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: his charges. So he's had a story for the rest 439 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,640 Speaker 1: of his life to tell. And then I was then 440 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: just put into a little flat in Toxstuf and the 441 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,439 Speaker 1: Liverpool gangsters, if you want to call them, was feeding 442 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: me every other day and I was just waiting for 443 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: a private plane to take me out. We had to 444 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: travel to the other side of Yorkshire and went into 445 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: a little airport and to an engined plane. We tuck 446 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,959 Speaker 1: off on the grass. Me and this other block got 447 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: in and we flew to Holland and just literally got 448 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,199 Speaker 1: off a plane and walked out. Nobody there, not a 449 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 1: single person to stop us. Just what straight out and 450 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: that was it. I settled into becoming a criminal on 451 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: the run. 452 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 3: During this spell as a fugitive in the Netherlands, Steven 453 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 3: got a phone call from a mate he made him prison. 454 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 3: It was Curtis Warrant, the drug trafficker. He was ready 455 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,679 Speaker 3: to recruit Stephen as one of the top executives in 456 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 3: his international smuggle network. Did you ever do no drugs 457 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:07,400 Speaker 3: that you smuggles? 458 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: No, you can't be doing that. I never get on 459 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: your own supply, especially that stuff. If you start taking it, 460 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 1: you're not going to get anywhere. Nobody at Trushia you 461 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 1: did see it on you. Whenever I had people working 462 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 1: with me, or when me and Curtis had people working 463 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: with we insisted on it. No drinking, no drugs, carrying, 464 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 1: too much money, too much danger involved in it. You 465 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: just cannot be doing that type of thing, doing what 466 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 1: we was doing, not the level was doing it anyway, 467 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: So it's quite professional. 468 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 3: You're almost like an HR department in that way. Curtis, Yeah, 469 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 3: screaking people. 470 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,439 Speaker 1: We've had problems where people have gone to places and 471 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,880 Speaker 1: got drunk and missed the meeting, and you know, it's 472 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: dangerous things. You're dealing with Colombians or any South American 473 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: or whoever you're dealing with, and they arrange meetings to 474 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,199 Speaker 1: pick things up or drop things off, and they're not 475 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 1: there because they pissed. You can't have it. So it 476 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,159 Speaker 1: was quite stripped with all that stuff. 477 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,919 Speaker 3: It was in those years running with Curtis Warren that 478 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 3: he was sent to Columbia to make deals with the 479 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 3: Karli cartel. Stephen would be invited to stay at one 480 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 3: of the leaders, Luke Cho's country ranch. 481 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 1: He had a tiger, a full sized tiger, and that 482 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: just to roam about. Talking about a ranch here now 483 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 1: that year you see like Dallas. So he's got a 484 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,360 Speaker 1: set of stables. We're attacking it for thousands of horses, 485 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,439 Speaker 1: because he's got hundreds of thousands of acres loads of 486 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: cattle men. He had a full size chimp that he 487 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: had from a baby, and that jumps on me that 488 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: finger and started screaming. It opened its mouth. I was terrifying. 489 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: And the tigers just used to walk about, just sit 490 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: down and lie down and not really interact with anybody. 491 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 1: But it was always eating, so it was always satisfied. 492 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 3: The tiger it had still had its teeth and its clawes. 493 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: The tiger was a full grown, full bloody tiger. But 494 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:07,360 Speaker 1: you just used to walk about. 495 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 3: Like a dog of a cat. 496 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 1: But the chimp was a full grown male chimp, and 497 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 1: it seemed to attach itself onto me for a bit. 498 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: So once I got it off, I got in the 499 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: card and told him to get rid of it or 500 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: so I'm not getting out of the car, and then 501 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: that night was a full bullfight. I think they brought 502 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:32,640 Speaker 1: four top of the range mattadors from Spain for the day, 503 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: flew them in and flew them out in private jets. 504 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,959 Speaker 1: They was earning big one at the time and there 505 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: was about maybe a thousand people there on that occasion. 506 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: Killed a few bulls, which goes against me with veganism now, But. 507 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,479 Speaker 3: Those wild parties with the Carli cartel had a shelf 508 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 3: life because when you're on top of an organized crime group, 509 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 3: the cops will always be watching you. In nineteen ninety six, 510 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 3: Dutch police tapped Stephen and Curtis Warren's phones and learned 511 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 3: they were bringing in a shipment. When it arrived, officers swooped. 512 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 3: The hall was massive. They found everything from guns and 513 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 3: hand grenades to large amounts of cash and of course, cocaine. 514 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 3: It was estimated to be worth one hundred and twenty 515 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 3: five million pounds. While awaiting trial, Curtis Warren even made 516 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 3: the Sunday Times Rich List back in nineteen ninety seven. 517 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 3: He was listed as a property developer with a forty 518 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 3: million pound fortune. In June that year, Warren was sentenced 519 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 3: to twelve years in a maximum security prison in the Netherlands, 520 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 3: and the Sunday Times removed him from its rich list. 521 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 3: But back to Stephen, who that same year, in nineteen 522 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 3: ninety seven, was sentenced to seven years in the same 523 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 3: Dutch prison. He also had to serve time in jail 524 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 3: in the UK afterwards. It was during his prison years 525 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 3: where Steven took a university course in fine arts, and 526 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 3: in twenty twelve he was released. 527 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: I had about thirty paintings and all my family was 528 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: outside waiting, and they've been waiting for a couple of 529 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: hours in the rain and the snow. But it was surreal, 530 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 1: you know, getting the paintings in the car and all 531 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: the other stuff that I collected over the sixteen and 532 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: a half years. 533 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 3: And just from what you've been through in prison, how 534 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 3: does it affect your life day to day? 535 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: Now? It's not so bad now, but it's always there 536 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,719 Speaker 1: in the background, what you've been through. Even now when 537 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: somebody knocks on the door, you know, if I don't 538 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: know who's coming, it's always a bit of a shock. 539 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: Even though I got nothing anything to worry about. I've 540 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: not done a single things as I came out, but 541 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: it's still there, that constant thing of looking behind your back. 542 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: Plus a game that was in was dangerous anyway, it's 543 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,719 Speaker 1: nice not to look behind you. There's no friends in there, 544 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: there are all associates. Even in there, you I was 545 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: looking over your shoulder. I've seen three or four people 546 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: killed in. 547 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 3: Prison, and in hindsight, looking back on the cocaine trade 548 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 3: and the businesses that you ran, what do you think 549 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 3: about what you did? Do you regret it? Do you 550 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 3: wish that you know you'd have stayed on and become 551 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 3: the graphic design of the artist. 552 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,959 Speaker 1: When I came out. So I've come out after all that, 553 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: all the millions and all that money that got taken 554 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 1: and everything that got took off us, and on the 555 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 1: day of release, I've come out, and then I've started 556 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: meeting all my friends from school and thinking all of 557 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: them are doing well. Quite a few millionaires involved who've 558 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: done it legitimately through their own hard legal work. Even 559 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 1: the people who've just had a job and just works 560 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: have got their own a nice house, a nice car, 561 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 1: going on aud this three times a year. I've got 562 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: none of that. In the end, when you look at 563 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 1: it all and even you know, even when you do 564 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 1: get to the top, one tiny mistake and it's all gone. 565 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: As times progressed, it's become a lot more violent, a 566 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: lot more desperate people involved in it, dirty, horrible, miserable trade. 567 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: All trust has gone from the criminal gangs. In any business, 568 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: you've got ahead of the business and then all of 569 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: a sudden somebody comes away and takes your managing director away, 570 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: and then you've got the people below wondering what's happened there? 571 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: You know, how do we get our okay now? When 572 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 1: the boss has gone? So then the next group move 573 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 1: up into that position, and then that every group below 574 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: and moves up into that position. But what the police 575 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: have done and wittingly is taken away any semblance of power. 576 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: Eventually you're going to get to people who don't give 577 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: a fuck about anything, who were ten times more violent, 578 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 1: maybe fifty times less clever. Because you've got to think 579 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: of them people at the top as if they wasn't 580 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 1: doing cocaine. They'll be at the top of a multinational business. 581 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: You know, we was talking about hundreds of millions when 582 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: we was moving stuff. So you're talking about major CEOs 583 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 1: and if you take any major CEO of any company 584 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 1: on the planet at the moment, the people below it 585 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: are going to feel it. And with the crime, I 586 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 1: think it's the same. I'm not saying you can't keep 587 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,239 Speaker 1: arresting people, because that's what you've got to do, but 588 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: the consequences of that is every time you do it, 589 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,959 Speaker 1: the next layer is going to be more violent and 590 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: care less about anything, and they're just in for it 591 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: for the money. 592 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 3: What do you think of Ellie Edwards, a young twenty 593 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 3: six to a beautician, murdered outside of a pub on 594 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 3: Christmas Eve by Connor Chapman. 595 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, first of all, condolences to the family for 596 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 1: such a terrible loss. It's that consequences of power and 597 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 1: money and how do you control it. I don't think 598 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 1: it's controllable. It's one of the things that aunts me 599 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 1: as well, the damage that I've done in my past 600 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: because of it and unwittingly not even thinking about it 601 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: at the time. It's only later with reflection that you 602 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,840 Speaker 1: can look at the damage and the state of everything. 603 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 1: But I mean you can point to Ellie, you know, 604 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: because of what I did, technically evolved into creating the 605 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 1: monsters that killed her. But then you have to start asking, well, 606 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: how far back do you go? We didn't start the 607 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 1: cocaine business. Other people started that. But I accept my 608 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 1: my own guilt for what I I did. Just dealing 609 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: in any way, shape or form, you become an outside 610 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 1: monster to society. Really, I suppose there's no easy way 611 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:11,880 Speaker 1: to put it. There's nothing good comes out of cocaine 612 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: and heroin over the misery and death. 613 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 3: Coming away from the interview of Stephen, he paints a 614 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,719 Speaker 3: picture of a swashbuckling lifestyle and a rose tinted view 615 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,359 Speaker 3: of the coke trade in the eighties and nineties. I've 616 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 3: known Stephen for two years and I've always found it 617 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 3: very open and honest about his past. Interviewing someone who's 618 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 3: been in jail is tricky. Stephen had a hard childhood, 619 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 3: the way he tells it, crime was always a part 620 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,239 Speaker 3: of his life. But as a journalist you want to 621 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:52,280 Speaker 3: get the balance right. Years after all, a convicted criminal 622 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,880 Speaker 3: at the height of his notoriety, he was wanted by interpal. 623 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 3: He says he wasn't directly involved in violence, but whether 624 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 3: that's true or not, it's inevitable that his actions trafficking 625 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 3: huge amounts of cocaine and transporting it through Europe has 626 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,240 Speaker 3: had an impact on the prevalence of the drug today. 627 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,359 Speaker 3: Although he was sent to prison, others just rose up 628 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 3: in his place, and it's still leading to fatal consequences 629 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 3: decades later. As an older man, I fairly understands this, 630 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:30,720 Speaker 3: and it's clear he shows remorse. He can never truly 631 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,799 Speaker 3: escape all those years in the underworld, running from the law, 632 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 3: even after atoning in prison and turning to art. So 633 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:42,240 Speaker 3: by speaking about his former life, perhaps it can help 634 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:47,280 Speaker 3: us understand how organized criminals and cocaine networks operate today, 635 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 3: to understand the business model and whether the violence and 636 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 3: destruction the human costs can ever be stopped. 637 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 2: Cocaine Inc. Is a joint investigation from The Times, The 638 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:14,720 Speaker 2: Sunday Times and News Corpustralia. The reporters are David Collins, 639 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 2: Stephen Drill and me Fiona Hamilton. The series is produced 640 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 2: by Sam Chanterassak. The executive producers are Will Row and 641 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,279 Speaker 2: Dan Box. Audio production and editing is by Jasper Leik, 642 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 2: with original music by Tom Burchell. We still have one 643 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 2: more bonus episode for you, a question and answer session 644 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 2: with myself, David and Steven. Please do email any questions 645 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,319 Speaker 2: you want to ask us at Cocaine Inc. At the 646 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,840 Speaker 2: Times dot co dot uk, or get in touch with 647 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,279 Speaker 2: us directly on our social media profiles. We put a 648 00:37:50,320 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 2: link to them in the description notes of this episode.