1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 1: From the Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Christian Amio. 2 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: It's Wednesday, February five. Joe Halen resigned from her position 3 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: as new South Wales Transport Minister after days of controversy 4 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:24,799 Speaker 1: surrounding her use of taxpayer funded car services for personal travel. 5 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:29,319 Speaker 2: As I said on Sunday, I've made some mistakes. I 6 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 2: did not break the rules, but I acknowledge that that's 7 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 2: not the only test here. 8 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 1: The government has banned deep seak on its systems and 9 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: devices on national security grounds. An assessment by intelligence officials 10 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: found the Chinese Generative AI platform poses an unacceptable risk. 11 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 1: You can read those stories right now at the Australian 12 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: dot com dot au. Freelance journalist Antoinette Latouffe broke down 13 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: in court on Tuesday as she reflected on her sacking 14 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,839 Speaker 1: by the ABC over a social media post they say 15 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:18,199 Speaker 1: breached their editorial standards. That's today's episode. In late twenty 16 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:22,320 Speaker 1: twenty three, the ABC's managing director, David Anderson, scrolled through 17 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: the social media profiles of a presenter filling in on 18 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: the broadcaster's Sydney Morning radio program. He picked up his 19 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: phone and texted a colleague David Anderson's words are being 20 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: read by a voice actor. 21 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 3: I think we have an Antonette issue. Her socials are 22 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 3: full of anti Semitic hatred. 23 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: That issue was resolved quickly. Antoinette Latoufe was sacked three 24 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: days into her week long contract, and on Wednesday David 25 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: Anderson will enter the witness box in the Federal Court 26 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: in Sydney to explain the public broadcaster's actions. Lebanese Australian 27 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: jour Antoinette Latouf is now suing the ABC in a 28 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: case that goes to the far Antoinette Latouf was taken 29 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: off the air at the ABC local radio branch in 30 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 1: late twenty twenty three. The ABC said her social media 31 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:18,079 Speaker 1: posts about the Israel Garza war, posted during that radio 32 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: engagement were in breach of their editorial policy. On December nineteen, 33 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: Latouf shared an Instagram post by Human Rights Watch to 34 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: her personal profile. That post is being read by a 35 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: voice actor. 36 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 4: Human Rights Watch reporting starvation as a tool of war. 37 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: The ABC says Latouf was let go because of that post, 38 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: but it says she wasn't technically sacked because they paid 39 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: her for the full five days. But in June, the 40 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 1: Fair Work Commission found in favor of Latouf. The Commission's 41 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: deputy president, Jared Boyce, said the employment relationship between Latouf 42 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 1: and the ABC was terminated at the ABC's in un initiative. 43 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: Later in June, Latoufe sued. Miss Latoof said the mediation 44 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: had been unsuccessful, and she vowed to fight on and 45 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:14,359 Speaker 1: take the case to trial through the federal court. As 46 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 1: the proceedings got underway on Monday, correspondence between former ABC 47 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: chair Oute Buttero's and managing director David Anderson were read 48 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: in court. The emails showed Buttros had pushed for the 49 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: fill in radio host to be taken off air following 50 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: complaints about her social media posts by a pro Israel group. 51 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: That correspondence is being read by voice actors. 52 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 2: Has Antoinette been replaced? I'm over getting emails about her. 53 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 3: Antoinette will finish up on Friday. It's a managed exit 54 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 3: given the situation. I can explain more tomorrow. Plan to 55 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 3: respond to all those who have emailed on Friday afternoon. 56 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 2: Why can't she come down with flu or covid or 57 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 2: a stomach upset? We owe her nothing. We're copying criticism 58 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 2: because she wasn't honest when she was appointed managed exit. 59 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 2: Really we should be in damage control, not managed exit, 60 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 2: s David. 61 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: The names of nine people who complained about Latouf's social 62 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: media activity were suppressed by a federal court judge for 63 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 1: ten years on Monday, following a surprise application by barrister 64 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: Sukrasanthu SC and solicitor Rebecca Giles. The judge said those 65 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: people could be vilified and harassed if their identities were 66 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: made public. Antoinette, Latouf's barrister, Ogi Fagear, said his client 67 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: had been targeted because of her personal views, not her 68 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: professional conduct, and said Buttros and Anderson had acquiesced to 69 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: complaints made by the Pro Israel group. 70 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 5: So far as the evidence goes, they did not at 71 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 5: any stage involve any human resources adviser, They did not 72 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 5: at any point seek legal advice, and we will say 73 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 5: they completely and utterly ignored the provisions of their enterprise 74 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 5: agreement and their own dealing with these issues. 75 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 1: James, what is this actually about? Is this case a 76 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: question of journalistic ethics or of the ABC's human resource management, 77 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: or is it something else altogether? 78 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 6: I think certainly journalism ethics have become part of this hearing, 79 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 6: although I think when you strip it back, it's still 80 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 6: essentially a tale about management or mismanagement of a staff's 81 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 6: employment and their employment conditions. 82 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: James Madden is The Australian's Media editor. 83 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 6: At its heart, the question is did Antoinette Latouf breach 84 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 6: the conditions of her employment by posting to social media 85 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 6: something that the ABC considered was inappropriate. Latouf said parameters 86 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:56,679 Speaker 6: were established between her and the content director of the station, 87 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 6: Elizabeth Green, but at no time was the world word 88 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 6: fair and balanced used in relation to any social media 89 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 6: postings that she may or may not choose to put online. Obviously, 90 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 6: their case rests on whether latoof breached her employment conditions, 91 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 6: although it remains contentious as to what they actually were. 92 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 6: Latouf's argument about the HIW post in which it was 93 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 6: claimed that Israeli was using starvation as a tool of 94 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 6: war certainly has some merit, if only because the ABC 95 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 6: itself had already highlighted that claim by the HIW in 96 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,919 Speaker 6: one of its earlier news reports. So for the ABC 97 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 6: to win this unlawful termination case, it has to essentially 98 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 6: concede that it was wrong to run a story about 99 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 6: that post earlier in the week. 100 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 1: Coming up Antoinete Latouf's side of the story in her 101 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: own words. Antoinette Latouf spent two days in the witness 102 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: box of court Room sixteen A at Sydney's Federal Law Courts. 103 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: Under cross examination by the ABC's silk Ian Neil sc 104 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: Latouf conceded her posts were controversial, but maintained they were 105 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: based on facts from reputable sources. A voice actor is 106 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: reading her words from court. 107 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 4: I don't share facts worrying if somebody might think it's controversial. 108 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: When she was quizzed by Neil on posts she made 109 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: earlier in twenty twenty three before her casual gig with 110 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: ABC Local Radio began, Latouf doubled down. Latouf admitted she 111 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: had called Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanya, who the most 112 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: far right extremist in the nation's history, in those earlier posts, 113 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: and claimed and Israel had perpetuated. 114 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 4: The worst humanitarian crisis and violence against children in modern times. 115 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 4: As journalists, we don't operate on the basis of how 116 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 4: people may feel. When I share facts based on reputable sources, 117 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 4: I don't deem them controversial. If people don't accept these facts, 118 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 4: they can you can describe it however you like, but 119 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 4: I don't accept that premise. 120 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: The court heard. The ABC's content director, Elizabeth Green, asked 121 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: Latouf to tone down her social media activity from the 122 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 1: beginning of her five day fill instint on ABC Sydney Mornings. 123 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:39,959 Speaker 4: I challenged it, Yes, I did, respectfully. 124 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: In her affidavit, Latouf said the pair came to an 125 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: agreement that she would only share social media posts containing 126 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: completely factual information from reputable sources. 127 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 4: No conjecture, no misinformation, just sharing information from reputable sources. 128 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: Latouf said she believed the Human Rights Watch post that 129 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: old timately led to her dismissal fell within the terms 130 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: of that agreement. 131 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 4: I had already seen it reported on the ABC and 132 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 4: the BBC. It was newsworthy. I decided if it was 133 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 4: good enough for the ABC and the BBC to post, 134 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 4: it was good enough for my social media. 135 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 1: Latouf agreed. When asked by ian Neil if the ABC 136 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: and the BBC had a responsibility to report that information. 137 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: She also conceded her engagement by the ABC didn't carry 138 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: the same requirement. 139 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 4: I was paid to be on a kind of lifestyle 140 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 4: magazine program. 141 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: On her way out of the building on December twenty 142 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: Latouf said she bumped into Elizabeth Green, who relayed through tears, 143 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 1: according to Latouf, that she'd been let go because the 144 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 1: post wasn't fair or balanced, but Latouf contends that was 145 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,479 Speaker 1: never part of the agreement and asked. 146 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:51,479 Speaker 4: Green, how do you balance starvation? 147 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: Antoinette Latouf became visibly upset at times during her cross 148 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: examination by ian Neel, especially when discussing the period following 149 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: her departure from the ABC. 150 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 4: I was like, was I being followed or did I like, 151 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 4: was that a coincidence? I couldn't. I don't know, and 152 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 4: I started to just question inspiral because I couldn't definitively 153 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 4: say whether I felt like I was being followed, and 154 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:21,559 Speaker 4: I was terrified. I've never been scared to be out 155 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 4: in public the way I have been. 156 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,439 Speaker 1: Latoof said her dismissal caused her to drink heavily, sometimes 157 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: until she passed out. She said the characterization of her 158 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: as insubordinate had rendered her unemployable. Asked if she characterized 159 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: herself as a poster girl for humanity and a free press, 160 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: Latoof said she was trying to clear her name as 161 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:43,199 Speaker 1: a journalist. 162 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 4: I think my memory is I posted a video of 163 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 4: me really emotional, saying I never wanted to be I 164 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 4: never wanted to be this. I just wanted to be 165 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 4: able to do my job and exist safely. I didn't 166 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 4: come out to be this per like I just I 167 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 4: was on air talking about cats and Christmas pudding. I 168 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 4: didn't want any of this. I have values, but I 169 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:04,559 Speaker 4: didn't want to be the face of this. When this 170 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 4: comes at such. 171 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: A cost, James, this legal action has come at the 172 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: end of a pretty rocky road for the ABC. It's 173 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: also happening at a time when media organizations are trying 174 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:19,559 Speaker 1: to balance the personal profiles and platforms of their journalists, 175 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: particularly on social media, which they themselves fostered in the 176 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: early days of social media, with their obligations to fare reporting. What, 177 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: if anything, is there to be learned from this situation? 178 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:32,199 Speaker 5: Do you think? 179 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 6: I don't think any media or organization has quite got 180 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 6: its head around the way its employees and its journalists 181 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 6: should use social media. In many ways, this is a 182 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 6: great test case of an organization's editorial policy versus its 183 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 6: social media policy, and that point was actually highlighted in 184 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 6: court on Tuesday. News organizations like to think they can 185 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 6: and should have great oversight of what its journalists post 186 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 6: on social media, but the reality is sometimes personal views 187 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 6: collide with the views of a news organization's idea of 188 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 6: what is appropriate in a journalistic sense. Many news editors 189 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 6: will tell you that, despite the initial rush to encourage 190 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 6: their staff to get on social media and promote news 191 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 6: brands on their personal accounts, life might be a lot 192 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 6: easier for news editors if their staff steered clear of 193 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 6: posting any political content at all on social media. 194 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 1: James Madden is The Australian's Media editor. ABC Managing director 195 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: David Anderson will enter the witness box today and former 196 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: chair out of Buttero's It's expected to give evidence later 197 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 1: in the week. The case returns to the Federal Court 198 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: on Wednesday. You can read all our teams reporting and 199 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 1: analysis right now at The Australian dot com dot au