1
00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,679
Speaker 1: And that's the thing, right, You got to meet fear

2
00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:07,280
Speaker 1: with love. And I just want to participate the conversation

3
00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:11,399
Speaker 1: more because I think the detractors would rather me be quiet,

4
00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:14,360
Speaker 1: be silent, go away, not participate. That's the whole point

5
00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:16,800
Speaker 1: of that moral panic. And I've just thought, no, I'm

6
00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:18,799
Speaker 1: I'm going to be here. I'm going to stand strong,

7
00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,760
Speaker 1: and I want to think of all the people who

8
00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:23,439
Speaker 1: have been kind to me over the years and bring

9
00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:25,119
Speaker 1: those forward with me into everything I do.

10
00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:33,080
Speaker 2: Good. Thanks so much for listening to the show. This

11
00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:36,080
Speaker 2: is better than yesterday. Useful tools and useful conversations to

12
00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,400
Speaker 2: help your day to day be better than it was yesterday,

13
00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:42,600
Speaker 2: every single week since twenty thirteen. My names Josha Ginsburg.

14
00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:44,960
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being here. I've got a

15
00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,960
Speaker 2: question for it. How would I think carefully? How would

16
00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:52,320
Speaker 2: you respond if someone said something about you that was really,

17
00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:57,000
Speaker 2: really disrespectful I mean super disrespectful in a public place.

18
00:00:57,120 --> 00:00:59,040
Speaker 2: And I'm not talking like school pickup or at the

19
00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,279
Speaker 2: P and C or footy training. I'm talking like on

20
00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:09,240
Speaker 2: a national level in parliament. It made the news untrue

21
00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:14,840
Speaker 2: and completely disrespectful. Look what reaction would be appropriate? A

22
00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:19,720
Speaker 2: witty retort full blown vengeance. In the case of my

23
00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:24,000
Speaker 2: guest today, their response was a little different. Their response

24
00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:28,039
Speaker 2: was to write a children's book. Today. On the show,

25
00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:31,319
Speaker 2: we're joined once again by the brilliant Shane Janek, who

26
00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:35,839
Speaker 2: you may know better as TV personality, performer, singer, drag

27
00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:40,080
Speaker 2: sensation and author Courtney Act. Three years ago, you see

28
00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,800
Speaker 2: the Australian Liberal Senator and for people who ever sees

29
00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,679
Speaker 2: liberal is not liberal, it's the conservative side of things.

30
00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,760
Speaker 2: The Australian Liberal Senator Alex Antique held up a picture

31
00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,800
Speaker 2: in the Australian Parliament with a picture. It was a

32
00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:55,880
Speaker 2: picture of Courtney Act reading a children's book on the

33
00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:58,720
Speaker 2: kids TV show Place Call and asked a question of

34
00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:02,840
Speaker 2: the Australian Broadcasting Corporate, our national broadcaster asked, why is

35
00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:08,239
Speaker 2: the ABC grooming children with this sort of adult content? Yeah?

36
00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:15,280
Speaker 2: Not good. Shane's reply was a brilliantly so. Part one

37
00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:19,160
Speaker 2: of Shane's reply was a brilliantly thought out op ed

38
00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,280
Speaker 2: piece which published in the Cidney Morning Herald. It bears

39
00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,840
Speaker 2: quoting because there's two bits of it which are just brilliant.

40
00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:29,960
Speaker 2: Shane wrote, as Courtney, the byeline is Courtney act and

41
00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,160
Speaker 2: a quite antik referring to my story time as grooming

42
00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,320
Speaker 2: as a political tactic to weaponize the protection of children

43
00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,240
Speaker 2: to win political points. It stripped straight from the right

44
00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,680
Speaker 2: wing American cultural war playbook. I normally wouldn't respond and

45
00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,200
Speaker 2: give this fringe opinion more oxygen, but I've seen this

46
00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:49,639
Speaker 2: tactic deployed increasingly in Australia and it needs to be debunked.

47
00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:52,959
Speaker 2: And then Courtney goes on to end the op ed

48
00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,920
Speaker 2: with this delightful closer, and I quite again we help

49
00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,919
Speaker 2: all kids flourish and stay safe by sharing more time

50
00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,000
Speaker 2: of stories, not fewer. When we offer them as many

51
00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:07,240
Speaker 2: options as possible, they find what authentically fits and fine

52
00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:11,080
Speaker 2: tune it from there. It's five years since marriage equality passed,

53
00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,200
Speaker 2: it's trans Awareness Week and the largest pride celebration in

54
00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,360
Speaker 2: the world, Sydney Pride is coming to town in February,

55
00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:20,160
Speaker 2: so it bears repeating we're here where queer get used

56
00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:22,960
Speaker 2: to it? And on that note, I'm off to write

57
00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:27,120
Speaker 2: a children's book. And the article ends. So it was

58
00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,680
Speaker 2: with enormous joy. A couple weeks back, I was putting

59
00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,760
Speaker 2: walking to bed. I got to read him confetti and

60
00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,800
Speaker 2: the Rainbow Garden, the new kid's book from Shane Jennak

61
00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,960
Speaker 2: aka Courtney Act. So in this conversation you'll hear plenty

62
00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,640
Speaker 2: more about Shane's reason and inspiration for writing that book,

63
00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,880
Speaker 2: his reactions to that particular incident, as well as Shane's

64
00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,920
Speaker 2: thoughts on the real damage that social media algorithms are

65
00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:53,400
Speaker 2: causing our community, the controversies around drag Queen's story time

66
00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,240
Speaker 2: and gender identity, how his relationship to Courtney has changed

67
00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,160
Speaker 2: over the years, how it's going now, the importance of

68
00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,120
Speaker 2: trying to empathy with others even when they have viewpoints

69
00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,880
Speaker 2: that are vastly different to our own, how he's choosing

70
00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,600
Speaker 2: to live with kindness before anything else. Plus the most

71
00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,240
Speaker 2: important question we should ask ourselves before trying to change

72
00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,119
Speaker 2: anybody's mind, which I'll get to on the other side

73
00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:14,280
Speaker 2: of this break, because I don't need to play some

74
00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:16,159
Speaker 2: bads before we get to the interview back in a moment.

75
00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:27,000
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening to the show today. Shane

76
00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,039
Speaker 2: Janeck is on the show a delightful, deeply wise human

77
00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:31,600
Speaker 2: that I've had the pleasure to know for coming on

78
00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,599
Speaker 2: thirty years. Boy. Now, in this conversation, Shane drops some

79
00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,760
Speaker 2: magnificent wisdom. But this particular nugget is so good that

80
00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:42,760
Speaker 2: the important question we need to ask, any of us

81
00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,400
Speaker 2: need to ask ourselves before trying to change someone's mind,

82
00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:49,000
Speaker 2: We have to ask would we rather be right or effective?

83
00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:49,800
Speaker 1: Now?

84
00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:52,320
Speaker 2: The way he explains this is so wonderful. I can't

85
00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,680
Speaker 2: wait for you to hear it. Enjoy this conversation with

86
00:04:54,839 --> 00:05:02,159
Speaker 2: Shane Janick. You all right, it's good to see you.

87
00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,280
Speaker 2: It's always delightful to see you. Getting ready for this.

88
00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,080
Speaker 2: Adam was exploring the first time that you came on

89
00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:13,200
Speaker 2: the show eleven years ago. Now, people still talk to

90
00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,159
Speaker 2: me about that episode. I remember that. I don't know

91
00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:22,480
Speaker 2: whether was I hang on home? Yeah?

92
00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:26,000
Speaker 1: Okay, good, Yeah, I thought that was true. Yeah, people

93
00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,440
Speaker 1: still talk to me about piano. Yes, yes there was.

94
00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:33,039
Speaker 2: What is that? That's my memory? Yeah there was a piano. Yeah. Yeah.

95
00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,359
Speaker 2: I lived alone and I had time to pursue my

96
00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:37,880
Speaker 2: you know, single man pursuits.

97
00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:42,400
Speaker 1: How was the piano playing going? Well, uh, you're not

98
00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:43,320
Speaker 1: a single man anymoe.

99
00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,720
Speaker 2: No. Gratefully, I don't get to sit in noodle quite

100
00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:47,240
Speaker 2: as much as I used to, but my son's only

101
00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,159
Speaker 2: recently taken up keyboard. So oh, okay, that's fun. There's

102
00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,120
Speaker 2: a fine line between doing stuff in front of him

103
00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,359
Speaker 2: that you can't do yet I'm not making him feel like,

104
00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:00,280
Speaker 2: you know, and just kind of slowly. Parenting is so complex,

105
00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,480
Speaker 2: isn't it. Yeah, And no one gets instruction manual and

106
00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:08,200
Speaker 2: no one gets it right. No one gets it right ever. Yeah,

107
00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:10,360
Speaker 2: and what does Maggie didn't say? If you can get

108
00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:12,960
Speaker 2: to thirty percent, that's good enough. Wow, Okay, and that's

109
00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:14,239
Speaker 2: pretty much it. Okay.

110
00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:16,360
Speaker 1: That's an interesting bar because I often think of like

111
00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:19,560
Speaker 1: percentages in areas of my life in general. I'm like,

112
00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:26,400
Speaker 1: if my motivation for this is fifty one percent authentic

113
00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:31,440
Speaker 1: and noble, then the forty nine percent that is superficial

114
00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:36,960
Speaker 1: and money driven or vanity driven is also fine. I'm

115
00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:38,400
Speaker 1: just trying to get to fifty one percent.

116
00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:39,159
Speaker 2: That's all you really.

117
00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,200
Speaker 1: Thirty percent is the parenting one. But this is why

118
00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,360
Speaker 1: kids books really come in handy. Kids books someone handy.

119
00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:51,200
Speaker 2: Because it's a way to communicate parenting stories across family units,

120
00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:53,599
Speaker 2: which otherwise we might not get and get new ideas

121
00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:57,520
Speaker 2: about parenting some of them. I've read a lot of

122
00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:04,440
Speaker 2: kids books, and because I started with kind of young adult,

123
00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,080
Speaker 2: because Georgia was ten when I met her, and so

124
00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:08,640
Speaker 2: I read a lot of that kind of stuff and

125
00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:09,279
Speaker 2: then we.

126
00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:13,480
Speaker 1: Regressed to kids books, to the like thirty words. Yeah,

127
00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,440
Speaker 1: one a word a page, and if you're an author,

128
00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,680
Speaker 1: the thirty word books very hard to return on.

129
00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,360
Speaker 2: It's hard, hard to do, very hard to do, as

130
00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:24,960
Speaker 2: you would have known writing a kids book.

131
00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,680
Speaker 1: Do you know what writing a kid's book compared to

132
00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:32,760
Speaker 1: writing a memoir. Writing a memoir took years and a

133
00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:38,200
Speaker 1: lot of emotional excavating, but the kid's book, once I

134
00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,520
Speaker 1: had the idea like that, that's the hard part, is

135
00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:43,520
Speaker 1: like what is the idea on?

136
00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:45,080
Speaker 2: What's like the twist?

137
00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:48,080
Speaker 1: And then it kind of just came out in an afternoon,

138
00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,320
Speaker 1: which was nice, and then was refined obviously.

139
00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:55,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you remember a kid's book from when you

140
00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,760
Speaker 2: were young that your parents kind of because there's there's

141
00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,440
Speaker 2: there's kids books, which is like and bear in mind,

142
00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,000
Speaker 2: I when mum died, we went through a bunch of

143
00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:05,400
Speaker 2: her stuff and there was I remember the reasing his

144
00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:06,960
Speaker 2: books and I pick it up. I'm like, there's no

145
00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:08,440
Speaker 2: fucking wow, I can read that to you because like

146
00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:11,800
Speaker 2: everyone's getting chopped up and killed. Some of the oldest stories.

147
00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:14,840
Speaker 2: Oh my god, the children get eaten and people get

148
00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,560
Speaker 2: shot and like, it's fucked up some of what we

149
00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,280
Speaker 2: read to kids. But there were some kids books that

150
00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,680
Speaker 2: I remember my parents, my mom particularly, would read it

151
00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:25,520
Speaker 2: again and again and again and again, and the ones

152
00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:27,960
Speaker 2: that got parables in them. Right, it's the lessons, right,

153
00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,120
Speaker 2: do you remember like a book from when you were

154
00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:31,360
Speaker 2: young that your parents read to you.

155
00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:36,960
Speaker 1: I remember my grade three teacher, mister Halliday. He was

156
00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:42,439
Speaker 1: the person that like sparked. He was like that great teacher.

157
00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,320
Speaker 1: Hopefully every kid gets at least one in their twelve

158
00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:47,360
Speaker 1: years if you're lucky, and that's the mat you only

159
00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,040
Speaker 1: need one. Yeah, and mine was in grade three.

160
00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:50,800
Speaker 2: Actually grade one.

161
00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:55,079
Speaker 1: Missus Parsons was pretty good too, but he would read

162
00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:57,400
Speaker 1: us like roll Dale books like The Twits and James

163
00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:01,240
Speaker 1: and the Giant Peach, and I remember but that very fondly.

164
00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:07,800
Speaker 1: I remember like Loving Animalia and Eleventh Hour, which Graham Base,

165
00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:13,400
Speaker 1: who's Australian, very didn't know that extraordinary. And I was

166
00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:15,199
Speaker 1: just talking to a friend the other day, the lovely

167
00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:19,280
Speaker 1: Tim Duggan, and he was saying, because I was like, God,

168
00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,520
Speaker 1: is it wild that you'd have an Amelia and eleventh

169
00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,400
Speaker 1: hour huge successes and that would be that's all you do.

170
00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:27,480
Speaker 1: Surely you'd keep pumping them out forever. And then I

171
00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,720
Speaker 1: googled it and there's an infinite supply of books by

172
00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:33,200
Speaker 1: Graham Base. Yeah they're doing okay, Yeah, they're doing okay,

173
00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:33,839
Speaker 1: they're doing okay.

174
00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,360
Speaker 2: That's scholastic thing. That is quite the racket. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

175
00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,120
Speaker 2: I do think Arnau has used credit to buy a

176
00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:47,839
Speaker 2: house in some time. Wait, what Broau was like this? Ah,

177
00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:51,360
Speaker 2: I read a lot. I'm interested to know what was

178
00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:55,600
Speaker 2: it about that particular teacher, the grade three teacher that

179
00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:58,040
Speaker 2: changed things for you.

180
00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:04,360
Speaker 1: I've I think he was really passionate about books and reading.

181
00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:09,680
Speaker 1: Like maybe grade three is the age where you can sit.

182
00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:11,760
Speaker 1: I'm sure you can do that in grade one, but

183
00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:13,880
Speaker 1: like he would sit us all down. He would crack

184
00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,800
Speaker 1: open James and the Giant Peach, Charlie the Chocolate Factory,

185
00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,240
Speaker 1: and he would sit and read it to the class.

186
00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:26,120
Speaker 1: And I think, well, those stories and that maybe that

187
00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:28,640
Speaker 1: was the first time I'd been read. Do you call

188
00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:32,080
Speaker 1: that a novel? Yeah? So, like that idea of being

189
00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:39,079
Speaker 1: immersed in a long form world and then the words

190
00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:44,120
Speaker 1: then conjuring my imagination and the pictures that got to

191
00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,559
Speaker 1: be built inside my head. Maybe that was the first

192
00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,559
Speaker 1: time that that had happened. I don't know.

193
00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:56,760
Speaker 2: I remember those moments again, roll Dahl again wanting to

194
00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:00,319
Speaker 2: read them to Warfee and going, oh, actually no, no, Like,

195
00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,760
Speaker 2: there's a lot of like the aunts in Great James

196
00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:07,120
Speaker 2: that I'm peach, abusive, horrible humans.

197
00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:11,719
Speaker 1: They're terrible people. There's a lot of that enrolled old books. Yeah,

198
00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,199
Speaker 1: it's really quits. It's not okay.

199
00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,360
Speaker 2: I find myself lucky I took you know, studied improv

200
00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:19,600
Speaker 2: and did all those improv years because I am like

201
00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,800
Speaker 2: in the same cadence. I'll be like and then Auntie

202
00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,840
Speaker 2: put the kettle on, and like, I will edit as

203
00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:31,520
Speaker 2: I go, because some of it is so gnarly. These

204
00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,000
Speaker 2: children going into smincers and all kinds are.

205
00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,200
Speaker 1: Terrible, Matilda, Actually all of them horrible things happening to children,

206
00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:38,680
Speaker 1: horrible adults.

207
00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:43,000
Speaker 2: Really, horrible adults. Really, Yet we're fine for those books

208
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,120
Speaker 2: to be on shelves and be sold to children. There's

209
00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,800
Speaker 2: quite a kerfuffle. And I'm sure there is a kerfuffle

210
00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,880
Speaker 2: when you know someone like you will write a book

211
00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:56,720
Speaker 2: for children. People are very worried. Yeah, very very worried.

212
00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,440
Speaker 1: Well today it's release days, so there's been not a kerfuffle. Yeah,

213
00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,080
Speaker 1: so I'm girding my loins for that girded kerfuffle. Although

214
00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:07,920
Speaker 1: you know what, I am hoping if.

215
00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:14,320
Speaker 2: Anyone's got girded loins. I've seen your workout videos and

216
00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:16,640
Speaker 2: you once described to me how you did the tuck,

217
00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:20,480
Speaker 2: So your loins are well and truly girded very much,

218
00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:22,480
Speaker 2: so you're ready to take anything.

219
00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:26,000
Speaker 1: You know what I do think though, Alex Greenwich, Member

220
00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:32,079
Speaker 1: for Sydney, sued Mark Latham for disparaging comments, made one

221
00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:34,120
Speaker 1: defamation case.

222
00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:38,080
Speaker 2: I'm hoping looks for people who unaware Alex is an

223
00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:41,280
Speaker 2: openly gay person. And Malaytham used to be the leader

224
00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,320
Speaker 2: of the Labor Party and it.

225
00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,439
Speaker 1: Was nearly the Prime Minister of Australia.

226
00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:51,280
Speaker 2: Got on a very different turn and yeah, made some

227
00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:56,320
Speaker 2: very public, really horrible statements about this person and it

228
00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:58,200
Speaker 2: was awful and he took it to court and one

229
00:12:58,280 --> 00:12:58,840
Speaker 2: and one.

230
00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:03,920
Speaker 1: And I'm hoping that there's a precedent there. And also

231
00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:08,200
Speaker 1: in the UK there was a drag queen who sued

232
00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,679
Speaker 1: somebody for defamation in the US, another drag queen who

233
00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,880
Speaker 1: sued somebody for defamation for saying very similar things to

234
00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,160
Speaker 1: me that people have said to me.

235
00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:18,400
Speaker 2: In Australia.

236
00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:21,680
Speaker 1: When I did play called Storytime back a few years ago,

237
00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:26,079
Speaker 1: and at the time, I was asked whether I wanted

238
00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:27,839
Speaker 1: to pursue any legal action, and I was like, oh,

239
00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:30,760
Speaker 1: what would you bother? Like, it's just a lot of energy,

240
00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:32,680
Speaker 1: a lot of time, a lot of money. But then

241
00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,760
Speaker 1: what I saw happen in those three cases, Alex is

242
00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,240
Speaker 1: being the local one, is that you set a precedent

243
00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:44,160
Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, you're actually not allowed to say gross, disgusting, horrible,

244
00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:49,800
Speaker 1: untrue things about people. And perhaps I don't know, maybe

245
00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,240
Speaker 1: from I guess the world we live in, we see

246
00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,640
Speaker 1: a lot of that happening anyway. But when someone actually

247
00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:56,880
Speaker 1: takes action and stands up for themselves in that way,

248
00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:01,240
Speaker 1: you think, oh, oh, that's the point of the justice system.

249
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:01,719
Speaker 2: It is.

250
00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:07,280
Speaker 1: So I guess, hello out there, whoever you might be

251
00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:11,400
Speaker 1: thinking about it, don't bother this time, please, because you know,

252
00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:15,599
Speaker 1: I've been reinforced by the success of Alex Greenwich and

253
00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,400
Speaker 1: others to stand up for myself.

254
00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,680
Speaker 2: And but this is how our society changes, because it

255
00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:28,360
Speaker 2: got people quite upset that a drag queen reading books

256
00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:33,920
Speaker 2: to kids was a somehow very dangerous thing. It isn't, no,

257
00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:39,240
Speaker 2: but people got really weird about it. Have you have

258
00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,320
Speaker 2: think like, why do you think people might be getting

259
00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,120
Speaker 2: a bit might feel a bit weird about that.

260
00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:51,240
Speaker 1: I think that there's been a long played game when

261
00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,920
Speaker 1: it comes to attacking the queer community from back in

262
00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,400
Speaker 1: the you know, the eighties. You've got your Anita Bryants

263
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,440
Speaker 1: and people like that. Would somebody think of the children

264
00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:05,520
Speaker 1: and this idea that there's something inherently sexual or sexualized

265
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,920
Speaker 1: about queer people drag queens. I think that when it

266
00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:15,120
Speaker 1: comes to drag, if you think about the opinion, the

267
00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:21,240
Speaker 1: prevailing opinion coming via the male gaze that you and I.

268
00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,360
Speaker 1: Actually I've had this in a personal experience with a

269
00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:26,880
Speaker 1: guy who was like, oh, you know, but drag queen

270
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:32,240
Speaker 1: storytime someone who I'd been intimate with, And he was like, oh,

271
00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:34,120
Speaker 1: you know, because it is it's a bit sexual, isn't it.

272
00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:35,080
Speaker 2: And I was like, no, it's not.

273
00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:39,440
Speaker 1: You find it sexual, like he finds me sexual and

274
00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:44,240
Speaker 1: the way I look sexual And there's something about that

275
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:50,400
Speaker 1: that fascination that can sort of yeah, that straight men

276
00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:55,200
Speaker 1: can find there to be something sexual about the whole

277
00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:59,520
Speaker 1: transgression of gender and sexuality and identity, but that's not

278
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:05,480
Speaker 1: inherent in the art form. And I think there's a

279
00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:13,920
Speaker 1: conflation between like gender and sex and sexuality and identity.

280
00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,960
Speaker 1: And I think ultimately like drag Queen story Time probably

281
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:22,440
Speaker 1: started because there was a couple of lesbian mums at

282
00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:26,080
Speaker 1: the local library and their child was having a book

283
00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,600
Speaker 1: read to them, and the mums thought, rather than this

284
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,200
Speaker 1: story being about a mum and a dad and they kid,

285
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,440
Speaker 1: wouldn't be great if it was more reflective of our family.

286
00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:36,560
Speaker 1: I remember being a kid going to the fairy shop

287
00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:41,160
Speaker 1: in Brisbane. I remember it with the Veronicas then mum

288
00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:45,320
Speaker 1: colling the same talents. Yes we were got they weren't Veronicas,

289
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:45,640
Speaker 1: they were just.

290
00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:47,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

291
00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:49,120
Speaker 1: But we would go to the fairy shop and there

292
00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,840
Speaker 1: was this woman dressed as a fairy reading us kids books.

293
00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,160
Speaker 1: And I feel like those lesbian mums probably just thought, well,

294
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,000
Speaker 1: why not have a fairy dressed as a woman reading

295
00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,120
Speaker 1: a kid's book. And then drag Queen story Time is

296
00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:01,080
Speaker 1: one because it's something fun and colorful. I performed at

297
00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,760
Speaker 1: Newcastle Pride on the weekend and it was just all

298
00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,320
Speaker 1: families and the kids just flock to the front and

299
00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,560
Speaker 1: they just love the glamour and the glitz and the

300
00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:15,320
Speaker 1: fun and the enjoyment and it's natural and it's lovely.

301
00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:19,600
Speaker 2: I wonder if it's like the word moist and that

302
00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:23,160
Speaker 2: some people completely innocent yet well, the research is that

303
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,199
Speaker 2: for some people the word moist it brings up equal

304
00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:32,680
Speaker 2: parts of like relish and disgust, and because of that discomfort,

305
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,560
Speaker 2: they get that and they can't handle it. And so

306
00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:41,000
Speaker 2: I wonder if it's the male gaze views what reads

307
00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:46,240
Speaker 2: as hot person. I am attracted to hot person. Hang on,

308
00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,399
Speaker 2: I know that that is not a woman, but because

309
00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:55,920
Speaker 2: there's a kid in the picture, then all that's terrible. Yeah,

310
00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,639
Speaker 2: rather than just going maybe I want I don't know.

311
00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:04,160
Speaker 2: I'm wondering if that mix is that the kids. It's

312
00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:06,720
Speaker 2: the thing that a lot of people they may not

313
00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:12,320
Speaker 2: have ever considered, but kids know, man. You know there's

314
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,160
Speaker 2: people in my life who are, you know, very close

315
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:19,120
Speaker 2: to me, they you know, being known they were gay

316
00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,280
Speaker 2: since the moment they understood that, I don't know, like

317
00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:24,880
Speaker 2: pretty much when they were around other kids. So maybe

318
00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:26,800
Speaker 2: KINDI grade one, Yeah.

319
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:31,160
Speaker 1: And I remember in Kindy these weren't maybe acknowledged thoughts

320
00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:31,720
Speaker 1: of the time.

321
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:35,160
Speaker 2: And makes me really clear it's nothing sexualized at this point.

322
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,040
Speaker 1: Because having a crush on like there was a kindy

323
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:43,000
Speaker 1: teacher preschool, so five four or five years old, and

324
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:46,520
Speaker 1: I just remember like like just thinking he was dreaming.

325
00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,320
Speaker 1: I also remember he had visible ear whax, which grossed

326
00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,480
Speaker 1: me out. I haven't really seen that standards they now sexualized.

327
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,600
Speaker 2: I am interested though, and we got we got very

328
00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,800
Speaker 2: uppity about this in a hurry. I was great to

329
00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,560
Speaker 2: came or South State School and and pe. They taught

330
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,560
Speaker 2: us to TimewARP, which is a song from a film

331
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:11,640
Speaker 2: whose protagonist.

332
00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:14,439
Speaker 1: Is a sweet transvestae.

333
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:15,760
Speaker 2: Cross dressing cannibal mad scientist.

334
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,080
Speaker 1: Maybe this hang await, Maybe this is where it comes from.

335
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:23,480
Speaker 1: Maybe people's first like people of our generations first contact

336
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:29,119
Speaker 1: with drag cross dressing is Tim Curry is Tim Curry

337
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:30,399
Speaker 1: for dinner?

338
00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:31,720
Speaker 2: Can't figure it out who.

339
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:37,119
Speaker 1: Is explicitly sexual? There is something inherently sexual about that.

340
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,560
Speaker 2: People cut them up and eat them. Yeah, it's a boat,

341
00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:45,840
Speaker 2: but also really quite clearly very sexually satisfied.

342
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:50,119
Speaker 1: Both Brad and Janet yes, but we had no problem

343
00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,440
Speaker 1: with that. Yeah, but for some reason and we turned

344
00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:54,040
Speaker 1: out all right.

345
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,560
Speaker 2: We were saying the story the other nights, like what

346
00:19:57,680 --> 00:19:58,920
Speaker 2: it becomes USh fucking snowflake.

347
00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, gonna understand the difference between that, which is total

348
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,720
Speaker 1: fantasy and my ability to raise a well balanced child.

349
00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,960
Speaker 1: It's obviously a conversation designed to create a moral panic

350
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,000
Speaker 1: in order to marginalize an already marginalized group of people

351
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:15,520
Speaker 1: to win some political points.

352
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:20,040
Speaker 2: You told me the story about going out as a

353
00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:24,520
Speaker 2: cigarette girl called court. In the act, you had Simone opinions,

354
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:26,880
Speaker 2: your opinions about the quality of your drag that night.

355
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,760
Speaker 1: We thought you just had a new drag name. Simone Opinions.

356
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:33,240
Speaker 1: Simone done.

357
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:38,920
Speaker 2: When the day comes, Simone Opinions, Simone Opinions will, Simone

358
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:44,640
Speaker 2: Opinions will live West of Goodna and Simone Opinions. Yeah,

359
00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:50,200
Speaker 2: she's pretty serious, smart opinions. That's fucking great, good one.

360
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:51,880
Speaker 2: That's a good drag name.

361
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:56,880
Speaker 1: Simoninion. Please welcome to the stage for Ted Talks. Simone Opinions.

362
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,760
Speaker 2: I want Simone Opinions to have a paint peeling Western

363
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:06,159
Speaker 2: Brisbane accent. And you would never expect that someone from

364
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:10,800
Speaker 2: slightly east of IPS, which would be in drag has

365
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:15,879
Speaker 2: some very strong words about community and society and acceptance,

366
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,680
Speaker 2: but delivered in like and I'm going down to the

367
00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:26,199
Speaker 2: Red Bank rself for a punt later. Yeah, that distracted you.

368
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,000
Speaker 2: It was real good. I guess what I'm getting for

369
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:37,760
Speaker 2: is like you went out and created another entire persona

370
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:44,000
Speaker 2: Courtney Act. But there's a part of that that it

371
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:49,480
Speaker 2: becomes almost inherently political. And I can only imagine that

372
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,159
Speaker 2: once because you were, you know, you very successful and

373
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,520
Speaker 2: you became quite high profile quite quickly. Was there a

374
00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,240
Speaker 2: bit of people are coming to me for opinion and

375
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,280
Speaker 2: stuff and I better get up to speed on a

376
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:04,280
Speaker 2: few things. You Have you managed that or have you

377
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:05,560
Speaker 2: had to stay ahead of it? Or have you found

378
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,520
Speaker 2: yourself because whether you like it or not, people are

379
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 2: going to politicize you.

380
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,719
Speaker 1: Yes, interestingly, because I mean Idol was two thousand and

381
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:19,119
Speaker 1: three and we didn't have the internet really, We certainly

382
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 1: didn't have social media or the comment section, and so

383
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:25,480
Speaker 1: there wasn't really much.

384
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:27,680
Speaker 2: Or if they were comment sections were not reported upon

385
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,960
Speaker 2: as fact. Well that's they are now, which they are

386
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 2: now comment comment slam. One comment in one thousand said, yeah.

387
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,679
Speaker 1: No, there wasn't much. I don't think that many people

388
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,280
Speaker 1: cared back then. I think it was after Celebrity Big

389
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,920
Speaker 1: Brother in the UK, which was twenty eighteen. I had

390
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,680
Speaker 1: started to post explainer videos and things like that on YouTube.

391
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 1: I did some stuff for different organizations over the years,

392
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,440
Speaker 1: and so I was interested and I was always trying

393
00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:01,160
Speaker 1: to give people my opinion because I was very curious,

394
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 1: and in my shows I would always like be trying

395
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 1: to incorporate a message and sort of like ham fist

396
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 1: something in But nobody really cared until.

397
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,440
Speaker 2: So everybody knows, like that's not some weird sex move,

398
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 2: it's just a it's a saying. It's a same people

399
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:16,719
Speaker 2: who have probably got their free or somewhere.

400
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 1: Do you think it means that you've got a like

401
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 1: a ham like hands, like I'm using a too big,

402
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 1: a too big a weapon to do the job, Like

403
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 1: I'm using an overly giant thing to you know, I'm

404
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 1: using a sledge hammer where attack hammer would have done.

405
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

406
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 1: Well, and so yes, nobody really cared until twenty eighteen

407
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 1: Celebrity Big Brother, which was kind of lovely because I'd

408
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:50,159
Speaker 1: always i'd always like wanted people to care and then

409
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 1: they started asking me about my opinions. And there was

410
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 1: a really good trot for a few good years there

411
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 1: where you could have public conversation and discourse that was nuanced.

412
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 1: It's an interesting and unfortunately that has ended, and that

413
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 1: any comment made in the public sphere seems to result

414
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 1: in polarization. I mean, the Internet social media is a

415
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 1: perfect example of the way the algorithms operate and how

416
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 1: I've worked out, through throwing a bunch of shalots into

417
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,159
Speaker 1: the rubbish bin, how the internet works. I made this

418
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 1: video where I opened my fridge and there was a

419
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 1: bunch of shalots there.

420
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 2: There were old and wilted.

421
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:29,959
Speaker 1: I pulled them out, I threw them in the bin

422
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 1: and I replaced them with the new shalots. It was

423
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: a very quick video, but it's to this date my

424
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 1: most viewed piece of content with ten million views and

425
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:43,119
Speaker 1: all of these comments. The hook is that the half

426
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:47,399
Speaker 1: a third of the comments were outraged that I was

427
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,919
Speaker 1: being wasteful huh, and that I should have cut up

428
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 1: those shalots and put them in a freezer bag and

429
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 1: saved them.

430
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 2: I could have put them in water.

431
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 1: A third of the comments were outraged because I was

432
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 1: calling spring onions shalots because I'm from Brisbane, and another

433
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 1: third of the comments we're saying, oh my god, that's

434
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 1: so me, Like you've thrown out the wilted ones and

435
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:09,640
Speaker 1: you've got the new ones and you'll never use any

436
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 1: of them. And it just kind of made sense that actually,

437
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 1: if you want to create viral content on the Internet,

438
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 1: you need to outrage two thirds of the people and

439
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 1: you get one third of your audience to support you.

440
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,440
Speaker 1: But actually, and if you look at the comment section

441
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 1: of anything that is viral or popular, it's all mostly hate,

442
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: and so you're incentivized to create divisive content.

443
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 2: Now, I mean it changes you're thinking, It changes the

444
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 2: way you think about things, and people imagine in their heads, oh,

445
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 2: what's a comeback? I can say here, that's going to

446
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 2: be a slam dunk rather than tell me more about that.

447
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 1: And even the comment section now because now there's this culture,

448
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,199
Speaker 1: particularly on threads, which I don't go on threads, and

449
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 1: I presumably on the comments section is more entertaining than

450
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 1: the post. So now the humble commenter is the star.

451
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 1: Like today some girl it's because I posted, you know,

452
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 1: about my children's book on all of the social media platforms,

453
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:20,719
Speaker 1: and then I was on threads and there was some

454
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 1: girl who said, can somebody remove this man in the

455
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: yellow shirt from this photograph? And then I was like what?

456
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 1: And then I looked and people have taken this still

457
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 1: photograph and run it through AI and all sorts of

458
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,679
Speaker 1: weird things end up happening in the background, and it

459
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 1: was thoroughly entertaining, pointless, but like, I don't know whether

460
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: this girl was just rage clickbaiting for whether she genuinely

461
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 1: wanted the man in yellow remove from alkhoto, but thousands

462
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 1: and thousands of comments, and they the stars because I

463
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: was like, what is this stupid post? What is she

464
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: talking at? And then it's the comment section is the star.

465
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 2: If it's not real, this is not what would never

466
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 2: say these things to each other to each other's faces.

467
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,360
Speaker 1: No, I mean, I think it's to do with capitalism,

468
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: you know, and the algorithms that they've worked out, that

469
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 1: this is how we can get a lot of eyes

470
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 1: addicted to this content by playing on that tribalism that

471
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 1: us and them the fight and fly sort of response,

472
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 1: and that over time starts to condition the brain into

473
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 1: thinking that that's what life is. But also like, I

474
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: think there's this idea of like proportional representation in some

475
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,199
Speaker 1: way we need to find on social media. I had

476
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 1: this thought the other day. Obviously they wouldn't do this,

477
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: but I was like, what maybe social media should have

478
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 1: like the AI can read all the comments and it

479
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: can say it can have like a little sliding scale

480
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 1: and like this. Many people disagree this, many people agree.

481
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 1: And here's the because when you look at the comments,

482
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, everybody strongly disagrees with this, But there's

483
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 1: two thousand comments and you're like, actually ten of them

484
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 1: strongly disagree and the rest are all, you know, lovely

485
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: or not or a little proportional representation.

486
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,640
Speaker 2: Also the fly and the soup, isn't it. And I'm

487
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 2: sure you've had this experience. You read, you know, a

488
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 2: response to watch if something you've put online, love it,

489
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 2: love it, love it, love it, love it love Look

490
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,199
Speaker 2: what a dick? That's the one that sticks with you. Yeah,

491
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 2: you know, and it's weird and you're exactly right. There's

492
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 2: there is money involved in trapping us like this. And

493
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 2: this is the really really important thing we have to

494
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 2: have to remind ourselves daily and that life is nuanced

495
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 2: and everything is a spectrum. And I was told a

496
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 2: really wonderful way to think of spectrums the other day.

497
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 2: They're not It's not linear like the electro magnetic spectrum

498
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 2: or the light spectrum. Spectrums are like the color wheel

499
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 2: you see when you pull up photoshop or something. You know,

500
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 2: it's some pub parts of it over there, some parts

501
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 2: of it over here, some parts are close to the middle.

502
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 2: It's this weird kind of staff his shape of where

503
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 2: things are, and everything's different. That's what the spectrum is,

504
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 2: different places on a globe of ideas and opinion. It's

505
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 2: not you are this one point on this linear space

506
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 2: and appreciating that that also changes over time. I was interested,

507
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 2: you know, you know, thinking about how you first showed

508
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 2: up as Courtney act and then now my livelihood is

509
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 2: tied to this character. Where do why I sit? Where

510
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 2: does Courtney sit? Courtney can host a TV show and

511
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 2: you know, go and shoot guns with the bloke from

512
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 2: Parkway Drive, you know, Shane can go to other stuff

513
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 2: like how's your relationship with Courtney changed over time?

514
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: It's gotten. There was a time back in the early days,

515
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 1: like idle days. I remember going to a therapist to

516
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 1: talk about my struggles with Courtney, almost being like a

517
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: third person, and then therapist explained that actually the mask

518
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: of Courtney, if anything, gave me a little bit more

519
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: time and distance between I guess the struggles that can

520
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: come with being publicly recognized, and that I should be

521
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 1: thankful for that aspect, because at the time I was like,

522
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: I think Rob Mills and I were at the jam

523
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 1: Factory in Melbourne or somewhere down in Melbourne, and like

524
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 1: a group of teenage girls like chased us into a shop,

525
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 1: but they didn't. They were chasing Rob Mills into the shop.

526
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: And then Rob was like, you remember Courtney, and then

527
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: they were all like, oh my god, and then they

528
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: were all excited, but they didn't know who I was,

529
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: and that made me. The ego part of me back

530
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 1: then was jealous that Rob got chased into a shop.

531
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 1: Now I realized that my anonymity or my ability to

532
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: have privacy, is something that I love and that I relish,

533
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: and that the ego burst of having some strangers recognize

534
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: you is actually not worth the loss of anonymity. But

535
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 1: you know, it comes with a job in the public

536
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 1: eye that you then come to accept and you have

537
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: a higher value in what you do than perhaps that

538
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 1: small loss of vanimity or that inconvenience. And thankfully in

539
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: my case, everybody's always just telling me nice things. Nobody's

540
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 1: yelling slurs or saying horrible things, so it's actually quite lovely.

541
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 2: It's just people don't say to you face. Facebook is

542
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 2: written in comics exactly this is true.

543
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think as well, because for me, the

544
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: character isn't a character. It's more just like me wearing

545
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 1: different clothes. And so I think for a long time

546
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: there was a delineation and that actually wasn't so healthy

547
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 1: for me. And I think that delineation came because it

548
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 1: was shame about doing drag and being Courtney that there was.

549
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: It was a different time. It's even as I say

550
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: it now, I'm like, surely that wasn't the case. Surely

551
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: you were never embarrassed by doing drag like post id

552
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: or like, surely this was the greatest thing to happen.

553
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: But it was always like, oh, you know, it's it's

554
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 1: just a job, like a police officer as a police uniform.

555
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 2: Nothing funny going on here.

556
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 1: And then around two thousand and fourteen, and probably due

557
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 1: large to the public conversations and the storytelling that was

558
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: happening in the media, I was able to accept, and

559
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 1: also through conversations with friends personally, but I was able

560
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: to accept and understand that actually, it was okay for

561
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: boys to be feminine and it's okay for girls to

562
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: be masculine, and that me loving doing drag and loving

563
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: being Courtney, and the certain style and type of drag

564
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 1: that I specifically chose, which was very feminine, Like drag

565
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: is often a lot more elaborate and bigger and clowny

566
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 1: and costume me and my drag was always quite feminine.

567
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: So the question was asked to me, Oh, why do

568
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 1: you think that you resonate to that sort of specific

569
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 1: type of drag? And I was like, well, what do

570
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 1: you mean, what do you mean? Nothing funny going on here?

571
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 1: And then this friend, the friend who was chas Bono,

572
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: actually helped me share some helped me sort of understand

573
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: that it was that it was okay that I like

574
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: feminine things because I'd grown up in Brisbane in the

575
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: eighties and nineties and it wasn't okay to like feminine things,

576
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 1: and so oddly compartmentalizing the femininity into Courtney into this

577
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: character was a way for me to justify doing it.

578
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: But then yeah, twenty fourteen, I was like, oh.

579
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 2: Actually, I just really like it.

580
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 1: I love it. I like feminine things. And interestingly, my fashion,

581
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 1: as Shane, I would always struggle. I couldn't work out

582
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: how to wear clothes.

583
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 2: As Shane.

584
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 1: I would buy things I'm like, oh, this doesn't fit.

585
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: And ever since then, I've just felt so much more comfortable.

586
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,239
Speaker 1: Like today I'm wearing a pair of floral looks like

587
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: your grandma's couch.

588
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 2: What do we call this not tapestry? Yeah, so it's

589
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 2: kind of like almost like a carpetbagger, Yeah, because it's

590
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 2: so transful. It's not quite curtains, but it's very spark

591
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 2: to be a couch. It's very intricately woven.

592
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: But yeah, I've become very comfortable, and I've sort of

593
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: taken those two halves of myself and melted them together,

594
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 1: and I like both halves now and I love It's

595
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 1: like when a celebrity get a female celebrity who I

596
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 1: don't know, Jennifer Lopez at home versus Jennifer Lopez on

597
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,240
Speaker 1: a red carpet, the two they look very visually different,

598
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 1: and I think for me, Courtney is like Shane on

599
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 1: a red carpet, but also nicely, Shane can go on

600
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 1: a red carpet too, Yeah, which is much more comfortable.

601
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 2: I can only imagine.

602
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 1: I'm not going to I'm not going to tell you

603
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:34,880
Speaker 1: I didn't try the tuck that you described to me.

604
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: I have privacy of your own home.

605
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 2: Pretty much. That night after you left my house, I

606
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 2: was like, all right, let's give this a shot. It's

607
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,399
Speaker 2: like I didn't have I couldn't get the angles right.

608
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 2: It was very, very odd. It's hard to do.

609
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 1: The first time. You know, it can be challenging, but

610
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 1: it's not. It's more just like I.

611
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 2: Kept going, Samuraiz could do this, Surely I could do this.

612
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: It's more that like it's it's something about like the

613
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 1: like when I do things as Shane, I'm like, oh

614
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:06,479
Speaker 1: my god.

615
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 2: Like I get ready as Shane every single morning.

616
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: I just put on a T shirt, put on a

617
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 1: pair of pants, put on a bit of moisturizer, brush

618
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 1: your hair, and you're done. But the courtney, you're sitting

619
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 1: there for hours, and when it's something wonderful, like when

620
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 1: it's Mardi Gras and I've got a new outfit and

621
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: fabulous hair, there's nothing more thrilling to me than like

622
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: getting into drag. But when it's like you know, doing

623
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:31,839
Speaker 1: you know, going on a morning show, which I'm very

624
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,439
Speaker 1: grateful for, but I'm like, there's no thrill in wearing

625
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: a white power suit and something you've already worn.

626
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 2: Like it's for me drag.

627
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 1: The excitement of drag comes from the creativity.

628
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 2: I just need to take a quick break from Shane

629
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 2: to tell you that Shane's book is out, Yes, but

630
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 2: as is so what now what? It's a fantastic Christmas

631
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 2: gift that is available in the show notes.

632
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 1: You can click on that and you can buy a

633
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 1: copy for you, for your friend, for your brother, sister, mom, cousin, auntie, whomever.

634
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,479
Speaker 2: It's all there. Also, Shane ended up being a guest

635
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 2: at story Club And Shane's story is fantastic, and I'll

636
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 2: put it up in a number of weeks. But every

637
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,399
Speaker 2: week now the story Club YouTube is happening. It's great,

638
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 2: we're back with live shows in February, but it's tied

639
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 2: you over the summer.

640
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 1: Every week there's a new story. This week I shared

641
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: a story about moments like, for example, where I helped

642
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 1: Courtney Act find her way home from Australian Idol by

643
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:27,800
Speaker 1: reading out the card where.

644
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 2: She was voted off. It's a great story. You can

645
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 2: fight it on YouTube. We're back in just a moment

646
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:46,839
Speaker 2: with Shane Jennick. You mentioned Marti Gras and I mean,

647
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 2: I would never I'm fifty one and I've known you

648
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 2: a long time. I've known you since I was probably

649
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 2: maybe thirty years I think I've known you. Yeah. Yeah, Well,

650
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 2: let's just believe that there in that time, our society's

651
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 2: relationship to the queer community has shifted significantly. And I wondered,

652
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 2: if you know, get your thoughts on what that might

653
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 2: be like day to day. In like, there's someone caught

654
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 2: close to me whose parents were involved in the setting

655
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 2: up of p flag. Parents friends, lesbians, and it kind

656
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,240
Speaker 2: of kind of dissipated.

657
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 1: And the flag's not around anymore, but the need for

658
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,839
Speaker 1: it is a lot less, to the.

659
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 2: Point where maybe we don't need to have the like

660
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 2: it's it helped a lot of people for a long time.

661
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 2: And yet and now because of the way that our

662
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 2: community is and our society is, and the way that

663
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 2: you know, books like this are published. Yeah, okay, we might.

664
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 1: I'm going to go out on a limb and say

665
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 1: that maybe those parents or that chapter of p FLAG

666
00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: was a like a Sydney city or an eastern suburbs.

667
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 2: Oh no, no, no, the worst.

668
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 1: Okay, because I've got a friend, I'll try and keep

669
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 1: it general for their anonymity.

670
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:12,839
Speaker 2: But I've got a friend who's You were so fucking

671
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 2: good at your neutral pride. I remember you teaching me

672
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:16,879
Speaker 2: about this. I was like, damn, just do it without

673
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 2: breaking step. I've got to think so hard.

674
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 1: Well, I've had a friend who's a trans woman and

675
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,399
Speaker 1: she works in a public school system, primary school as

676
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 1: a like a teacher's aide, and she's just just in

677
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 1: the last couple of years. This is the thing, is

678
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 1: like everything was going really lovely twenty fourteen to like

679
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, Like think like twenty twenty. It was kind

680
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 1: of like peak twenty twenty three, Sydney well Pride, peak acceptance, wonderful.

681
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 2: You could feel it was a host I think of

682
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 2: Well Pride as you may know them, Courtney, brilliant job.

683
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 1: But there was just like I remember watching moods and

684
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 1: attitudes change. I remember when Obama I was living in

685
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,720
Speaker 1: the US, and I remember when Obama made the speech

686
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 1: about marriage equality. I remember, I remember being so moved

687
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 1: that I cried to hear an American president saying the word.

688
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 1: I remember that was shock when the first time I

689
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: heard him say gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender. Now that seems absurd,

690
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: and that was only ten years ago. But in just

691
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 1: in the last few years, Marti Gras, this year saw

692
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 1: a withdraw by Meta and by Google and by a

693
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 1: lot of American multinationals under a post Trump DEI is

694
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 1: dead kind of world. And so quickly the support and

695
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 1: which was always like about the you know, the soul

696
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 1: and the heart of supporting equality, and then all of

697
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: a sudden that's been withdrawn. And a lot of regional

698
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,359
Speaker 1: prides as well, I know, have had money withdrawn all

699
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 1: around the world, not just here because of that. And

700
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,880
Speaker 1: you do see the attitudes starting to change, and I

701
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: mean we see it more widely, certainly in the US,

702
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:16,439
Speaker 1: but even in Australia. We see these you know, sort

703
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 1: of hate groups more broadly rising up in different facets.

704
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 2: And so I think that.

705
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 1: Whilst it felt like maybe the fight was coming to

706
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 1: an end with Marti grad that we've actually got new

707
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 1: reasons now to be steadfast, which is unfortunate because it

708
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: would have been really lovely if everybody was just accepted.

709
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 1: But in the eastern suburbs in Sydney and Melbourne, yes,

710
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 1: but I know that still I get messages all the

711
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 1: time from families and from young people saying that they're

712
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,919
Speaker 1: having a horrible time being bullied at school. Like yes,

713
00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 1: jen Z and Jen Alpha are all cool and hip

714
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: and with it, but there's still this really pervasive misogyny

715
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 1: and that then informs homophobia, particularly towards young men, young boys,

716
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 1: because there's this idea of like a young boy being

717
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 1: soft or compassionate or caring that is viewed as feminine,

718
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 1: and in society we still view feminine as less than

719
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 1: and so then that becomes a negative. And and I

720
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 1: think that it's certainly a lot better, but I don't

721
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 1: think we've arrived.

722
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 2: And you know, you make a bear and Muda had

723
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 2: this conversation about people like what Biden was in right

724
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 2: because I was working with reform. Yeah, yeah, precisely. And

725
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 2: you make a good point in that it's it's all

726
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,319
Speaker 2: well and good to have your rainbow colors on your

727
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 2: ad sometime in early March to go, hey, you know

728
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 2: these golden marches are also a rainbows. But it's just

729
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 2: hard for me to not see that as a cynical

730
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 2: tracing of a dollar or a cynical way of being

731
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 2: seen and be doing the right thing. But I wonder

732
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 2: if that is because in response to what the ever

733
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 2: the administration that they're working under, who holds the reins

734
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 2: of the regulation of their industry, you know. Yeah, and

735
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 2: this may be similar.

736
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 1: So and in a weird way, like it's not like

737
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 1: pride is the only thing that has suffered under Trump's administration,

738
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: and we see literally the most powerful people in the

739
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 1: world bending to his will and kissing the ring. And

740
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 1: so I get it, not that ring or I.

741
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 2: Didn't say anything. I didn't say call me shortening. Well,

742
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 2: you haven't told me that. Once. It was like if

743
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 2: the if the face is on but the wig's not there,

744
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,359
Speaker 2: it's shortening as soon as the face starts short which

745
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 2: is which I like. But I but I get it,

746
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 2: And I don't know. Maybe part of is lack of acceptance.

747
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 2: Were wanting to accept that maybe my own kid or

748
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 2: someone in my life might not be within the bell

749
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 2: curve of what we as a community consider you know, homogeneous. Yeah,

750
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:22,320
Speaker 2: And I don't want my child to be on the outer,

751
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 2: even if it's something that my child has no control over.

752
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: Well, interestingly, like the children have always been on the

753
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: outer and on different points of the bell curve. Growing up,

754
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 1: I was a you know, Shane stop walking in new tiptoes,

755
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:40,400
Speaker 1: like a fairy, you know those like but there was

756
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 1: we just didn't have language for it back then. But

757
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 1: now to describe gender as a spectrum, which gender is

758
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 1: a spectrum, Like if you look at I mean, you're

759
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 1: a different type of masculinity to me, and you know,

760
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:54,879
Speaker 1: to know why, Bob Catta just came to my mind.

761
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 1: He's one kind of masculinity and Rhys Nicholson is another

762
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 1: type of masculinity. And so I think that like we

763
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:09,840
Speaker 1: can see that gender exists on a spectrum, and we

764
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,320
Speaker 1: can also see through time that gender exists on a spectrum.

765
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,320
Speaker 1: Women weren't allowed to wear pants trousers in like the

766
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 1: nineteen thirties. Katon Hepburn kicked down those doors and it

767
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 1: was made a lot easier because she was wearing slacks.

768
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 1: And it's just that thing that we see the way

769
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 1: that gender evolves. And I think that there's someone has

770
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 1: made something spooky about this idea of gender being on

771
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 1: a spectrum when it's really quite literal and we see

772
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 1: it all the time in our world. I think that again,

773
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 1: those that Loud Minority has willfully misrepresented certain parts of

774
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 1: the conversation to create a moral panic to win political points.

775
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 1: But I think that I think really, I mean, you know,

776
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 1: you've got young kids. You just want them to be happy.

777
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 1: You want to listen to them, you want them to

778
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 1: feel heard, you want to support them in who they

779
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 1: are and how they express themselves. And there's a certain

780
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 1: amount of give and take in that. Like just because

781
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:09,760
Speaker 1: a kid says I want to wear a Spider Man costume,

782
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 1: you don't think he wants to live as Spider Man

783
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 1: for the rest of his life. But certainly, I think

784
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 1: the idea that people who have penises act this way

785
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,359
Speaker 1: and people who have vagianas act this way, and that

786
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:27,919
Speaker 1: there's a very clearly defined binary, and that there's very

787
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 1: sharp walls and boxes around those two types of people

788
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 1: and then never allowed to deviate from that, I think

789
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:38,320
Speaker 1: that's not true. I think that is something that creates

790
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 1: a lot of struggle in those people. In society in general,

791
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 1: I mean, the conversation around masculinity and like the straight

792
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 1: white man and that sort of thing. I actually think

793
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 1: like the box that is placed around the archetypical straight

794
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 1: white man that we see a lot of these conversations

795
00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 1: about masculinity pushing against is is so it's so narrow

796
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 1: and it's so restrictive, like the if a man's integrity

797
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:15,479
Speaker 1: is compromised by him having a flourish of the risk

798
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 1: or a desired for something that isn't football or F

799
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 1: one or b like, it just feels really like, it

800
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:28,759
Speaker 1: feels like such a flawed And I think the thing

801
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 1: is it's like born into a cage and you can't

802
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 1: you don't know that you're in a cage. And I

803
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 1: think interesting like the message of the queer community, and

804
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:40,240
Speaker 1: I think because I was born into that cage essentially,

805
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 1: and then as we grow up, I didn't fit the

806
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 1: cage enough that I had realized that I was in

807
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:50,799
Speaker 1: a cage and didn't fit and so like there was

808
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 1: something that was that didn't fit so much about me.

809
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 1: That meant that I was able to identify myself independently

810
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: of that. And I think that for a lot of people,

811
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 1: perhaps they don't realize that there's all these expectations that

812
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 1: society has placed on them, and actually they are allowed.

813
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about anarchy and the dissolution of civilization

814
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:10,959
Speaker 1: by any means.

815
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 2: I'm just talking about, like, I don't know, do you

816
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 2: like that thing? It's okay if you like that thing.

817
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 1: And I mean, I think you're a perfect example of

818
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 1: a man who has defined who he is and the

819
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:23,319
Speaker 1: things that he likes.

820
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:25,439
Speaker 2: And you know, you're.

821
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 1: Out there having lovely, thoughtful conversations with people. You're expressing

822
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 1: yourself in mainstream media in ways that is that feels

823
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 1: like warm and inviting, and those even that as equality

824
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 1: is progressive in a way from the archetypical man, which.

825
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 2: It can still feel kind of lonely sometimes because I'm

826
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 2: just not the kind of guy that does things that

827
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 2: a lot of other guys do, and I find it

828
00:47:51,520 --> 00:48:00,320
Speaker 2: difficult to engage and so I'm like, okay, okay, So

829
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 2: it's a bit weird sometimes because I find it difficult

830
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 2: to find other men, and you know, most people my

831
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 2: age would struggle to have close friends. I'm lucky to

832
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 2: have some quite close friends, but there there's not many

833
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:15,240
Speaker 2: of them because there's not a lot of men who

834
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:21,839
Speaker 2: kind of see things from where I see them, and

835
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 2: and so yeah, it's not without it's difficulty, yes, and

836
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:27,759
Speaker 2: it's not without also feeling like I can't get behind that. Man,

837
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:30,919
Speaker 2: I really don't give two fucks about what that car does.

838
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:32,879
Speaker 1: Well, isn't that the interesting thing?

839
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 2: Right?

840
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,359
Speaker 1: Because there's something that has authentically spoken to you and

841
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 1: that you've you've you've leant into, like all of you,

842
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 1: the things that you like and enjoy, and there's something

843
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 1: that's that can feel lonely about that because so few

844
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 1: people do. I mean, I'm sure that a lot of

845
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:55,880
Speaker 1: men genuinely do love cars and football, like I believe

846
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:59,759
Speaker 1: that to be true. But then I think that a

847
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 1: lot of them are also just like, on, this is

848
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:04,400
Speaker 1: what we have to like, guys, like we've got to

849
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:05,279
Speaker 1: write this thing.

850
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 2: It's part of it. I think might just be I'm

851
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 2: just looking for common things to connect with, connect on,

852
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:14,319
Speaker 2: you know that, And that's it. But there's you know,

853
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:17,840
Speaker 2: there's certain elements that I never understood when I was younger,

854
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:19,879
Speaker 2: and I see it, you know in my own son,

855
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 2: Like just never understood connecting with each other by punching

856
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 2: someone on the other.

857
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I fucking got that. Yeah, some dudes will totally do.

858
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:29,920
Speaker 1: I'm like, just fucking shake my hand, mate. Yeah, it's fine.

859
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 1: I never understand. I feel really weird when that happens

860
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 1: because I don't know what to do with that, and

861
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 1: you'd also experience sort of the best and the worst

862
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 1: of it, really, like in public men trying to relate

863
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 1: to that guy from television.

864
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 2: Because I'm I am quite an empty vessel in many ways.

865
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:53,879
Speaker 2: Not since Channel V, which was a music television show

866
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 2: back when we had music television. Not since CHANNELV have

867
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 2: I done a job where I've been me on camera.

868
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 2: I'm simple. There is exposition, and so people feel in

869
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:06,479
Speaker 2: a lot of blanks, all right. For example, I haven't

870
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:09,800
Speaker 2: eaten meat since two thousand and two, and so people

871
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 2: can create all kinds of shit in their head about

872
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:16,840
Speaker 2: what I believe. I don't give two shits what you

873
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 2: put in your mouth, mate, Like I'm not going to

874
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:22,279
Speaker 2: show you chicken slaughter house videos. I don't care. Yeah,

875
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 2: what you do, it's your colon, like, it's your arteries,

876
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:28,280
Speaker 2: soft the pop. But people will fill in the blanks

877
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 2: and assume. People assume I'm like a super lefty, mega

878
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:36,320
Speaker 2: lefty guy. I'm not. I'm actually pretty interest and pretty humanist,

879
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 2: and some things I'm like spending too much money on that,

880
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 2: and like some of the things that the further left

881
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:51,319
Speaker 2: leaning activists have insisted on our society. I get it,

882
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 2: I get it, I understand it. I don't know if

883
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 2: in the long run for me, it's a bit like

884
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:58,239
Speaker 2: when I walk through Pitt Street more and there's the

885
00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:00,880
Speaker 2: vegan people there and it met in a long time

886
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:05,680
Speaker 2: showing footage of slaughter houses and cows being decapitated and

887
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:09,240
Speaker 2: blood of stuff like that is like, yeah, that is true,

888
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:12,839
Speaker 2: And I don't know if you're going to help by

889
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:13,800
Speaker 2: shaming people.

890
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:15,520
Speaker 1: It comes down to the do you want to be

891
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 1: right or do you want to be effective?

892
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:17,840
Speaker 2: Argument?

893
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 1: And quite often I think, oh, yeah, this is yes, yes,

894
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:28,360
Speaker 1: you're right, Yes this is correct. But I think we

895
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:30,799
Speaker 1: do need to acknowledge that we do live in a

896
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:32,840
Speaker 1: society which is a shared space, and we want to

897
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:37,879
Speaker 1: work out how to make that as good for everybody.

898
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 1: And I think that also, I think because of the

899
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 1: algorithms that this idea, that there is this ginormous cohort

900
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 1: of people who believe this thing.

901
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 2: Your children are going to change genders before a little.

902
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 1: Launch, Well that one, yes, but like the ideas on

903
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 1: the extreme left and the extreme right take up so

904
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 1: much conversation space in the center, and I think these

905
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 1: ideas are like, let's say three percent of people actually

906
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:14,319
Speaker 1: believe them, but we spend thirty percent of our time

907
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:18,400
Speaker 1: talking about them. That's that doesn't make sense and comes

908
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 1: back to your proportional comments section. I like, yeah, well,

909
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:22,960
Speaker 1: because the more and the other thing is the more

910
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:26,240
Speaker 1: time we get sucked into the talking points of the extreme,

911
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 1: the more volume andes and credibility we give them. And

912
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:36,799
Speaker 1: so I mean, when doing publicity for this book, I've

913
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 1: been asked, you know, by everyone essentially about this conversation

914
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 1: about drag queens story time, and I just think, like,

915
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:50,319
Speaker 1: the more we talk about these niche opinions, like if

916
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:56,400
Speaker 1: I release this book five years ago, would have only

917
00:52:56,440 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 1: been celebration, joy, How wonderful. Isn't this lovely?

918
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 2: What a sweet book?

919
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:05,320
Speaker 1: Oh she looks so glamorous. Oh do you know what

920
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 1: I mean? And it's so weird that in the last

921
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:13,360
Speaker 1: few years that there could be ever something untoward about me,

922
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 1: a drag performer, releasing a children's book. And I remember

923
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 1: at first I'd sort of brushed that off. It was

924
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 1: when Senator Antick held up my photograph in the Senate

925
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 1: Estimates and asked, why is the ABC using government money

926
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:31,520
Speaker 1: to groom children?

927
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:38,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, you weren't, because that's a very difficult word. People

928
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:40,239
Speaker 2: use it when they shouldn't use it.

929
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:43,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, And Senator Sarah Hanson Young was there, thankfully to say,

930
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:46,840
Speaker 1: you shouldn't be using words of abuse when none is happening,

931
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:51,279
Speaker 1: because it diminishes the instances where it actually is happening, a.

932
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 2: Limit for people who outside the country. It was an

933
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:55,400
Speaker 2: episode of play School, which is a show that's been

934
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:59,959
Speaker 2: running on the ABC, our public broadcaster for seventy years. Yeah, long, long,

935
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:03,160
Speaker 2: And there's always people reading stories on their show. Yeah.

936
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:06,040
Speaker 1: And I read a story in Drag, a very pleasant

937
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:08,799
Speaker 1: story called the Spectacular Suit, about a girl who wanted

938
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:11,719
Speaker 1: to wear a suit to her birthday party. And I

939
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 1: think this Adelady and Senator saw an opportunity to speak

940
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 1: Australian politics with an American accent. Thankfully it kind of

941
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:29,799
Speaker 1: failed miserably, but he stole an innocence from me. I

942
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:36,319
Speaker 1: had never thought about myself in that way or in

943
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:38,799
Speaker 1: relation to that, and that now I realized that when

944
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,319
Speaker 1: I was in public I was like, Oh, Like I'm

945
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 1: sitting at the beach and there's a bunch of kids

946
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:45,160
Speaker 1: playing ball. I would have been like, Oh, that's cute.

947
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:47,319
Speaker 1: And now I'm like, oh God, is somebody looking at

948
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:49,839
Speaker 1: me thinking is that that person? And I was like, Oh,

949
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:53,840
Speaker 1: how horrible to have to second guess and think about

950
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:59,200
Speaker 1: those sorts of things now because some person decided to,

951
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:03,360
Speaker 1: you know, make defamatory statements about you.

952
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:06,799
Speaker 2: You responded to that with an opinion piece in the

953
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:09,240
Speaker 2: Sydney Morning Herald. Jose you also ran in the Age

954
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 2: down in Melbourne, the final line of which was got

955
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 2: to go, I'm off to write kid's book. Yes, is

956
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:16,320
Speaker 2: this that book? This is that kid's book.

957
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:20,000
Speaker 1: And that's the thing, right, You got to meet fear

958
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 1: with love, and so I've written this kid's book, Confetti

959
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:28,600
Speaker 1: in the Rainbow Garden, which is like a gorgeous little

960
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:35,680
Speaker 1: celebration of sapling who's in NaN's backyard and it's springtime

961
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:39,360
Speaker 1: and they're wondering if this is going to be the

962
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 1: spring where their flowers bloom for the first time.

963
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:43,920
Speaker 2: They're wondering what are their flowers going to look like?

964
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 2: Will they be too quiet or too loud?

965
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 1: And they go on a journey around the garden visiting

966
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:50,680
Speaker 1: all of their cousins to see what is it that

967
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:53,040
Speaker 1: their cousins like and what do their flowers look like?

968
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:59,880
Speaker 1: And also Confetti, the hero of the story, knows that

969
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:04,799
Speaker 1: Nan named them after her favorite tree in the garden, right,

970
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:07,760
Speaker 1: and so Confetti's wondering, like, which tree could I be called?

971
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 1: Which tree relates to Confetti? So yeah, they go around

972
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:14,160
Speaker 1: the garden talking to all of their cousins, who are

973
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:16,320
Speaker 1: all Australian native flowers.

974
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 2: The art is delightful, by the way, and you know

975
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:22,399
Speaker 2: when you read it, you are going to want to well,

976
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:24,200
Speaker 2: you want to know what's going to happen to the Ibris.

977
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:26,439
Speaker 1: Thank you, you good.

978
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:29,560
Speaker 2: It's very special. I read a lot of kids books

979
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:31,799
Speaker 2: because in certain kids books there's a little because you

980
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:34,239
Speaker 2: read them so often, you read them all, so you

981
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:36,719
Speaker 2: read them a hundred times more. And so if you

982
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 2: can put a little thing in there that lasts over

983
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 2: the arc of the book, it's another thing to engage with.

984
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 2: You know why, you know your kid starts to predict

985
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:46,960
Speaker 2: that that's why they like them again and again and end,

986
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:50,239
Speaker 2: because I know it's it's a safe, predictable thing. And

987
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 2: like and it's lovely. The what I like about it

988
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 2: is there's this idea that you don't need to know

989
00:56:57,719 --> 00:57:01,320
Speaker 2: what you are straight away. It will come with time. Yeah,

990
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:03,480
Speaker 2: And it's okay to be curious about it. It's okay

991
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 2: to be a little worried about it. But it's also

992
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 2: important to remember, like, it's going to be all right

993
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 2: whatever it is. However it shows up whatever it is.

994
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:15,920
Speaker 2: And again that also it will change over time. The

995
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:19,040
Speaker 2: stuff I was into when I was younger, I really

996
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 2: don't care about now. There was like from day to

997
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 2: night some of that stuff.

998
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:25,480
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm never gonna listen to that album again ever,

999
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:27,880
Speaker 1: And I care about it so much how to poster

1000
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:28,400
Speaker 1: on my wall.

1001
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:30,960
Speaker 2: I just don't really care that much anymore. We're different

1002
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 2: people and we grow through time, and it's fine, that's

1003
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 2: what we are. Yeah, that's and that's all right. And

1004
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 2: especially with little kids, man, just giving them that space

1005
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:45,000
Speaker 2: to be curious. Let's figure that out. Let's go try. Yeah,

1006
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:47,480
Speaker 2: let's go try. And if you don't, you know, if

1007
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:50,360
Speaker 2: you're not into it, I'm not going to force you. Yeah.

1008
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:52,480
Speaker 1: And then there's something about you know, Confedi getting to

1009
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:54,480
Speaker 1: the to the top of the garden to their favorite

1010
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:56,680
Speaker 1: place in the garden, doing their favorite thing in the garden,

1011
00:57:57,240 --> 00:58:01,560
Speaker 1: and that feeling of joy that comes from following the

1012
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:03,840
Speaker 1: thing that you love. And it's nice to be able

1013
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 1: to try different things and be like I really like that,

1014
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 1: but yeah, maybe not. I really like that, but well

1015
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:11,280
Speaker 1: maybe not, and then like, oh, actually this is the

1016
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 1: thing that I really love doing, and this is the

1017
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:18,200
Speaker 1: thing that I should do. Y's that idea of authenticity.

1018
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 2: And something you think that looks really awesome. I can't

1019
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:23,080
Speaker 2: wait to try that, and then you do it, like, actually,

1020
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:25,720
Speaker 2: it isn't what I thought it would be. I had

1021
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:28,160
Speaker 2: a different idea from the outside, but now I'm doing it. Yeah,

1022
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:30,960
Speaker 2: in my experience, that would be breakfast radio. It's it

1023
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:33,560
Speaker 2: isn't what I wanted. No, it isn't what I want anymore.

1024
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:38,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, even like in this book, the cousins

1025
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:40,400
Speaker 1: all have a different thing that they like, even making

1026
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:46,520
Speaker 1: those things science, gardening, synchronized swimming, poetry, Like I was

1027
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:50,720
Speaker 1: just trying to like I could have made them building

1028
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 1: stuff and you know, ballet and like the archetypical or

1029
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:57,440
Speaker 1: stereotypical things, but I was like, I don't know, like

1030
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:02,320
Speaker 1: this one one of the Lily Pilly, she really loves science,

1031
00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:07,760
Speaker 1: and the kangaroo Paul really loves playing soccer and even

1032
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:10,080
Speaker 1: just telling. And that's why I think the solution to

1033
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:12,000
Speaker 1: we talked about do you want to be right or

1034
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:14,280
Speaker 1: do you want to be effective? And you can argue

1035
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:16,200
Speaker 1: till you're blue in the face about the thing that

1036
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:22,560
Speaker 1: you're right about. Often that tactic can come with shaming

1037
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:25,000
Speaker 1: the people who are wrong as well, and it's not

1038
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:27,600
Speaker 1: to say that they're not still wrong, but is it effective?

1039
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:32,440
Speaker 1: And all of the thinking that I've done, I've really

1040
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:36,960
Speaker 1: come to a place. I obviously like laws and activism

1041
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 1: are important in shaping our society, as we discussed earlier,

1042
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 1: but I think the real change comes from storytelling. And

1043
00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 1: I think it comes from something that feels a lot

1044
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:51,480
Speaker 1: less effective than it actually is, because writing a sweet

1045
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:55,280
Speaker 1: story in a book kind of feels a bit innocuous

1046
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:58,440
Speaker 1: because you're not fighting anybody, and you're not getting that

1047
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:03,200
Speaker 1: like angst or that anger, and those are really powerful emotions, and.

1048
01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:05,600
Speaker 2: It's very similarly to have a standing shouting out yea

1049
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 2: for somebody or angrily typing yeah.

1050
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:11,600
Speaker 1: But actually when you're just sharing a story, when when

1051
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:16,440
Speaker 1: You're creating a lovely television show on ABC called Big Boys,

1052
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:20,960
Speaker 1: which is a UK scripted drama series, and it's just like,

1053
01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:22,920
Speaker 1: it's one of the few times that I've seen a

1054
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:26,640
Speaker 1: show that's got gay characters in it, where like nothing

1055
01:00:26,680 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 1: horrible happens, everybody makes good choices, and like this this

1056
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:35,080
Speaker 1: lovely it's not predictable. It's like this sweet story of

1057
01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:37,840
Speaker 1: like a straight college student a gay college student who

1058
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:41,240
Speaker 1: are best friends. And I'm like, oh so lovely to world,

1059
01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 1: and it's so entertaining, and it's had three seasons, so

1060
01:00:43,640 --> 01:00:46,160
Speaker 1: it's been a success. It's been exported to Australia. And

1061
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:49,880
Speaker 1: actually think that like all the people watching that sweet,

1062
01:00:50,120 --> 01:00:54,120
Speaker 1: lovely show probably have their opinions and ideas expanded and

1063
01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:59,240
Speaker 1: shifted a little more and thinking a little bit differently

1064
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:02,800
Speaker 1: rather than like that nasty comment you're leaving in the

1065
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:05,520
Speaker 1: comment section. Yeah, I've got all these ideas that I

1066
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:10,160
Speaker 1: want to explore through I don't know, like documentary or

1067
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:12,480
Speaker 1: other that I'm working on at the moment where it's

1068
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:14,400
Speaker 1: just about like how do I reach across the aisle

1069
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 1: and how do I there's this my Angelou quote that

1070
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:21,440
Speaker 1: I just I'm not often one who reposts other things.

1071
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 1: But she just talked about whenever I do anything, whenever

1072
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:26,320
Speaker 1: I step on stage, whenever I go into a meeting,

1073
01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 1: I take all of the people who have ever been

1074
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:34,520
Speaker 1: kind to me with me in that moment, and I

1075
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:36,880
Speaker 1: just think there's something so beautiful about that idea of

1076
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:41,600
Speaker 1: being kind and rather than trying to think about how

1077
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:44,680
Speaker 1: can I be right? How can I beat this person,

1078
01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:48,360
Speaker 1: It's like we're all just trying to Yeah, we're just

1079
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:50,120
Speaker 1: trying to get through it. And that the idea of

1080
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:54,160
Speaker 1: being kind and thinking having some compassion for another person

1081
01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:58,760
Speaker 1: rather than thinking that the world is out to get you. Yeah,

1082
01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:02,320
Speaker 1: it's hard to do though, if you are particularly a

1083
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:08,440
Speaker 1: persecuted minority and your whole life you have been shout upon. Yes,

1084
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:15,200
Speaker 1: the anger and the fight and the righteousness is a

1085
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:18,520
Speaker 1: protective mechanism. And that's why the storytelling is important, right

1086
01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:23,120
Speaker 1: Because when I hear or see or read that story

1087
01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:26,800
Speaker 1: and a podcast, in a book, on TV, in a documentary,

1088
01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:31,760
Speaker 1: I then go, ah, that's why that person is that way,

1089
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:35,280
Speaker 1: and then I have a little empathy and understanding for them.

1090
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:39,440
Speaker 1: But when we only hear one type of story being told,

1091
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:42,240
Speaker 1: then and we don't you know. It's the thing about

1092
01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:45,760
Speaker 1: trans folks, right, most people don't know a transperson. Most

1093
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 1: people do know a gay person, a gay or a

1094
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:52,200
Speaker 1: lesbian or a bisexual, but most people don't know a transperson.

1095
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:55,440
Speaker 1: And the only time that they hear about trans people

1096
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:57,760
Speaker 1: is in the media, which for the last few years

1097
01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:01,080
Speaker 1: has been solely occupied by the idea of bathrooms and

1098
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:06,240
Speaker 1: sport and children and whatnot. But actually, most people, most

1099
01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:08,880
Speaker 1: trans people, ones who own relationships, are just talking about

1100
01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:12,000
Speaker 1: midnight and they're just do.

1101
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:12,480
Speaker 2: You know what I mean?

1102
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:16,120
Speaker 1: It's like, it's actually they're just a human being who's

1103
01:03:16,520 --> 01:03:18,920
Speaker 1: trying to get through life exactly the same way as

1104
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:22,439
Speaker 1: everybody else. And I think less sensational and more sort

1105
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:27,320
Speaker 1: of just run of the mill stories that aren't centered

1106
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:29,800
Speaker 1: around the extremes of identity are really important.

1107
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:33,880
Speaker 2: We have this idea that we turn things that we

1108
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:39,320
Speaker 2: don't have a full picture on, things that were unfamiliar with,

1109
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:41,080
Speaker 2: things that are frightening to us, we turn them into

1110
01:03:41,680 --> 01:03:44,439
Speaker 2: the biggest, scariest version of what it could possibly be,

1111
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:46,160
Speaker 2: and then that's what we're reacting to.

1112
01:03:46,720 --> 01:03:49,720
Speaker 1: And that's the thing about these I guess I would

1113
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:52,520
Speaker 1: call them right wing talking points extreme right talking points

1114
01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:56,960
Speaker 1: is that they've been constructed to occupy our attention, to

1115
01:03:57,000 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 1: create a moral panic, and so when we get sucked

1116
01:04:00,160 --> 01:04:03,080
Speaker 1: into talking about those things, I think we do a

1117
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:07,200
Speaker 1: disservice to the humanity of those people. And I think

1118
01:04:07,240 --> 01:04:10,200
Speaker 1: that's why I pop a trans newsreader on the telly.

1119
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:17,520
Speaker 1: We just need like normal, average representations of different types

1120
01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 1: of people. Like even when we talk about, you know,

1121
01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:23,320
Speaker 1: perhaps the race reckoning that has gone on over the

1122
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:29,760
Speaker 1: last five years, having like extreme stories or people reacting

1123
01:04:29,800 --> 01:04:34,000
Speaker 1: to racism or like, it's just it's just like, we

1124
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:38,680
Speaker 1: just want more stories of people of color in Australian media.

1125
01:04:38,720 --> 01:04:41,439
Speaker 1: They don't have to be about the fact that they

1126
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:46,480
Speaker 1: are Indian or Aboriginal or whatever. They can just be

1127
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:51,920
Speaker 1: humans because as it becomes tokenistic otherwise, when we're constantly

1128
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:53,920
Speaker 1: representing people for the minority, that.

1129
01:04:54,320 --> 01:05:00,400
Speaker 2: Maybe a pathway forward is so I'm closer to sixteen

1130
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:02,720
Speaker 2: years so when I am fifteen years now, but when

1131
01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:06,640
Speaker 2: I first got into those meetings of sobriety meetings, I

1132
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:09,640
Speaker 2: was really really resentful that I needed to be there.

1133
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:11,560
Speaker 2: I did not want to be there. I didn't want

1134
01:05:11,560 --> 01:05:13,320
Speaker 2: to hear a fucking word that anybody else was saying.

1135
01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:14,520
Speaker 2: But I knew that I had to be there. I

1136
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:18,040
Speaker 2: was going to die, and I would hear people talking

1137
01:05:18,080 --> 01:05:21,200
Speaker 2: and I'd just be in full judgment, full fucking judgment

1138
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:24,080
Speaker 2: of the way they viewed the world. And a man

1139
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:25,600
Speaker 2: at the time, I just said, you just got to

1140
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:28,360
Speaker 2: listen to the similarities, not the differences. Listen for what

1141
01:05:28,560 --> 01:05:30,600
Speaker 2: is in common. Listen for what is in common. Listen.

1142
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:33,600
Speaker 2: But it really taught me to go, well, what is

1143
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:36,720
Speaker 2: what is in common? We've both got a favorite food,

1144
01:05:36,720 --> 01:05:38,880
Speaker 2: we both got a favorite song. We both have a

1145
01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:42,520
Speaker 2: dual flush toilet that's a bit leaky, you know. You know,

1146
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:44,600
Speaker 2: both of us deal with huntsmands when it's very rainy.

1147
01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:48,440
Speaker 2: You know, the things that make us in common are

1148
01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:52,520
Speaker 2: vastly more in number than where we are different.

1149
01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:55,760
Speaker 1: There are some people who would say that who I

1150
01:05:55,800 --> 01:05:58,320
Speaker 1: am as a drag queen is somehow like pulling apart

1151
01:05:58,400 --> 01:06:01,560
Speaker 1: the threads of society due to the anarchistic nature of

1152
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:05,640
Speaker 1: my disavowment of gender. But I mean, really, if you

1153
01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:08,880
Speaker 1: want to focus on what the problem is, it's the

1154
01:06:09,560 --> 01:06:13,480
Speaker 1: separation of sex society through social media algorithms.

1155
01:06:13,600 --> 01:06:15,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, the other benefit of getting out of social media,

1156
01:06:16,160 --> 01:06:17,640
Speaker 2: and like, I could talk to you forever and ever

1157
01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:21,400
Speaker 2: and ever because I adore you. I am seeing and

1158
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:25,040
Speaker 2: I see it in Georgia, who's now twenty one, as

1159
01:06:25,840 --> 01:06:29,840
Speaker 2: phone down and her and her cohort of friends, they

1160
01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:33,760
Speaker 2: will seek out things where they're doing things together. All right,

1161
01:06:33,800 --> 01:06:37,080
Speaker 2: We've for so long been kind of isolating, and I'm wondering,

1162
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:39,480
Speaker 2: what do you get out of what kind of nourishment

1163
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:40,160
Speaker 2: do you get out of.

1164
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:46,120
Speaker 1: Being with other people and connecting with other people. It's real,

1165
01:06:46,280 --> 01:06:49,120
Speaker 1: It's what life is made of. And one thing that

1166
01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:54,720
Speaker 1: does give me hope is that we if you look

1167
01:06:54,720 --> 01:06:58,440
Speaker 1: at history, things swing left, things swing right, things change,

1168
01:06:58,480 --> 01:07:00,560
Speaker 1: and at the moment it feels like a race to

1169
01:07:00,600 --> 01:07:07,520
Speaker 1: the bottom. But actually, like as humans, the isolation that

1170
01:07:07,560 --> 01:07:11,600
Speaker 1: we're all feeling doesn't feel good. And the ones of

1171
01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:14,959
Speaker 1: us who are old enough to remember a time before that.

1172
01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:18,440
Speaker 2: Four times yeah, when it was in four x three, Yeah.

1173
01:07:18,560 --> 01:07:20,919
Speaker 1: Hang on, we need to go outside and we need

1174
01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:25,720
Speaker 1: to have analog experiences, and analog experiences are now being

1175
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:29,600
Speaker 1: you know, often it's about what you can who how

1176
01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:32,360
Speaker 1: can you convince the people who are making the money

1177
01:07:33,640 --> 01:07:37,200
Speaker 1: to change what they're doing in order to benefit society,

1178
01:07:37,280 --> 01:07:39,720
Speaker 1: like with you know the environment, how can can we

1179
01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:44,240
Speaker 1: convince the gas and oil companies to do green stuff

1180
01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:46,440
Speaker 1: and make money off that as well? Like I don't know,

1181
01:07:46,640 --> 01:07:51,080
Speaker 1: is exon mobile green energy the best energy. I'd rather

1182
01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:54,960
Speaker 1: it be that than fossil fuel energy. You want to

1183
01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:59,560
Speaker 1: be exactly. And so when I think about how do

1184
01:07:59,640 --> 01:08:03,120
Speaker 1: you make how do you make real things? I think

1185
01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:06,040
Speaker 1: humans are craving real things, real analog experiences. And you

1186
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:11,960
Speaker 1: see like high end luxury brands now creating analog experience

1187
01:08:12,080 --> 01:08:14,680
Speaker 1: like a book club at the Prada shop kind of thing.

1188
01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:19,080
Speaker 1: And so you there's this, there's like there is a

1189
01:08:19,320 --> 01:08:21,800
Speaker 1: movement and an awareness that like there's money to be

1190
01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:25,240
Speaker 1: made from analog experiences. I think live performance and comedy

1191
01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:31,479
Speaker 1: and live theater. Will I'm hoping will kind of benefit

1192
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:36,200
Speaker 1: because when in a world of AI slop and when

1193
01:08:36,280 --> 01:08:38,760
Speaker 1: you can't trust, like now, I see what did I

1194
01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:42,640
Speaker 1: see a friend of mine who could very well have

1195
01:08:42,880 --> 01:08:45,320
Speaker 1: She's she's on strictly come dancing At the moment in

1196
01:08:45,320 --> 01:08:47,360
Speaker 1: the US, are you okay?

1197
01:08:49,120 --> 01:08:51,080
Speaker 2: Dancing? All the stars is on? They're running at the

1198
01:08:51,080 --> 01:08:51,360
Speaker 2: same time.

1199
01:08:51,400 --> 01:08:54,120
Speaker 1: They are running at the same time. Robert when famously

1200
01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:57,880
Speaker 1: representing the country. But yeah, LaVoi is a drag queen.

1201
01:08:57,920 --> 01:09:00,880
Speaker 1: She's on strictly the photo of her and share on

1202
01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:04,200
Speaker 1: her social media, and I was like, I don't know

1203
01:09:04,240 --> 01:09:06,599
Speaker 1: if this is real or not, because we now live

1204
01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:08,080
Speaker 1: in a world where it could have been fake, it

1205
01:09:08,120 --> 01:09:09,920
Speaker 1: could have been real. And then I stopped believing.

1206
01:09:10,160 --> 01:09:12,559
Speaker 2: I've found myself doing that too. Just put it down.

1207
01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:14,400
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't want to have to filter every

1208
01:09:14,400 --> 01:09:17,519
Speaker 2: single one to go do thistally unbelievable that can't be real.

1209
01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:21,599
Speaker 1: And we'll tire of that very quickly, and we'll go hopefully,

1210
01:09:21,640 --> 01:09:23,479
Speaker 1: we'll put our phones down and we'll go outside, and

1211
01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:25,479
Speaker 1: we'll want to see something on stage that we know

1212
01:09:25,640 --> 01:09:29,400
Speaker 1: is real because we can see it with our own eyes.

1213
01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:32,759
Speaker 2: Were human people, and connecting in that space and connecting

1214
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:35,519
Speaker 2: with other things that are you know, you also find

1215
01:09:35,560 --> 01:09:40,120
Speaker 2: interesting makes you feel less alone. It's really important. Look,

1216
01:09:40,120 --> 01:09:41,080
Speaker 2: thanks for writing the book.

1217
01:09:41,120 --> 01:09:41,240
Speaker 1: You know.

1218
01:09:41,240 --> 01:09:43,479
Speaker 2: I'm blood I'm bloody glad you did. I'm glad to

1219
01:09:43,479 --> 01:09:46,640
Speaker 2: get you know, it's important. Like you signed off on

1220
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:48,000
Speaker 2: your little up ed there and you went, yeah, I'm

1221
01:09:48,040 --> 01:09:50,080
Speaker 2: going to go do this thing. You bloody don't.

1222
01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:52,679
Speaker 1: Well because there's that other idea where I'm like, maybe

1223
01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:55,479
Speaker 1: I just won't. I did have a moment I was

1224
01:09:55,520 --> 01:09:58,160
Speaker 1: like do I want to do this? Because it wasn't

1225
01:09:58,600 --> 01:10:02,280
Speaker 1: the place called storytime thing. It was soured with some

1226
01:10:02,880 --> 01:10:05,760
Speaker 1: you know, sucked up your day of the beach exactly and.

1227
01:10:06,640 --> 01:10:08,960
Speaker 2: So and then I I thought.

1228
01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:12,080
Speaker 1: Actually, weirdly the power of art. I was in the shower,

1229
01:10:12,240 --> 01:10:14,400
Speaker 1: I was feeling a bit down back in that time,

1230
01:10:14,479 --> 01:10:16,000
Speaker 1: and I was like, Oh, I don't know, maybe I

1231
01:10:16,040 --> 01:10:18,080
Speaker 1: just want to I don't want to participate in this anymore.

1232
01:10:18,120 --> 01:10:23,719
Speaker 1: It's gotten ugly. And then Beyonces I had music playing

1233
01:10:23,720 --> 01:10:27,760
Speaker 1: and it was like Beyonce's Queen's remix to You Won't

1234
01:10:27,760 --> 01:10:30,920
Speaker 1: Break My Soul. And she was having this like you

1235
01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:33,479
Speaker 1: can take it, you were built for this, give it

1236
01:10:33,479 --> 01:10:35,960
Speaker 1: to me. And I was like, yes, Beyonce, Yes, give

1237
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:38,400
Speaker 1: it to me. And it was the thing that reinspired me.

1238
01:10:38,439 --> 01:10:41,280
Speaker 1: And I feel I felt kind of like a bit

1239
01:10:41,320 --> 01:10:43,320
Speaker 1: pathetic in a way that just a few words from

1240
01:10:43,360 --> 01:10:45,479
Speaker 1: Beyonce and a pop song were the thing that made

1241
01:10:45,479 --> 01:10:47,400
Speaker 1: me from wanting to give up to wanting to succeed.

1242
01:10:47,560 --> 01:10:50,960
Speaker 1: But it was and I just thought, Yeah, I'm gonna

1243
01:10:50,960 --> 01:10:52,519
Speaker 1: write this book. I'm going to release it, and I'm

1244
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:55,920
Speaker 1: gonna lead with kindness, lead with love, and focus on

1245
01:10:57,000 --> 01:10:58,240
Speaker 1: the joy of it. And when I got to read

1246
01:10:58,240 --> 01:10:59,720
Speaker 1: this book to a bunch of kids the other day

1247
01:10:59,720 --> 01:11:03,360
Speaker 1: in the gardens, it put it all in context. I

1248
01:11:03,400 --> 01:11:05,080
Speaker 1: was like, this is joyous.

1249
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:07,599
Speaker 2: It was so sweet. And I got to the page.

1250
01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:09,120
Speaker 2: Does anybody know what's synchronized swimming? It?

1251
01:11:09,240 --> 01:11:12,719
Speaker 3: Yes, Archie, Synchronized swimming is where to or more people

1252
01:11:13,560 --> 01:11:16,840
Speaker 3: do choreograph dance moves in the water in a competition

1253
01:11:16,960 --> 01:11:21,439
Speaker 3: style event. And I was like, thank you, Archie, very

1254
01:11:21,439 --> 01:11:25,080
Speaker 3: good answer, and just like the joy of it and

1255
01:11:25,200 --> 01:11:28,640
Speaker 3: like the beauty of kids. You're just like I want to.

1256
01:11:28,720 --> 01:11:31,280
Speaker 1: I want to put the story into the world, and

1257
01:11:31,320 --> 01:11:33,519
Speaker 1: I just want to participate in the conversation more because

1258
01:11:33,600 --> 01:11:37,719
Speaker 1: I think the detractors would rather me be quiet, be silent,

1259
01:11:37,800 --> 01:11:40,160
Speaker 1: go away and not participate. That's the whole point of

1260
01:11:40,160 --> 01:11:42,759
Speaker 1: that moral panic. And I've just thought, no, I'm gonna

1261
01:11:43,120 --> 01:11:44,680
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be here, I'm gonna stand strong, and I

1262
01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:46,960
Speaker 1: want to. I want to, you know, think of all

1263
01:11:47,000 --> 01:11:48,360
Speaker 1: the people who have been kind to me over the

1264
01:11:48,439 --> 01:11:50,880
Speaker 1: years and bring those forward with me out everything I do.

1265
01:11:50,960 --> 01:11:54,200
Speaker 2: And I think the most powerful thing in all that, Shane,

1266
01:11:54,520 --> 01:11:59,840
Speaker 2: is the detractors that you speak of most definitely, because

1267
01:11:59,840 --> 01:12:02,960
Speaker 2: it is really easy to not lead with kindness. It's

1268
01:12:03,040 --> 01:12:05,439
Speaker 2: really easy to be angry. That is the simplest, easiest

1269
01:12:05,439 --> 01:12:08,879
Speaker 2: thing to do. To lead with kindness and have empathy

1270
01:12:09,280 --> 01:12:14,240
Speaker 2: and appreciate nuance and be inquisitive, it's actually quite difficult

1271
01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:17,200
Speaker 2: to do. However, it's the only thing that's ever allowed

1272
01:12:17,240 --> 01:12:21,040
Speaker 2: us as a society to progress beyond just chopping off

1273
01:12:21,120 --> 01:12:24,440
Speaker 2: people's bits and pieces for things we don't agree with. Yeah,

1274
01:12:24,479 --> 01:12:28,080
Speaker 2: and it's hard to do sometimes. Yeah, it's hard to

1275
01:12:28,120 --> 01:12:28,599
Speaker 2: be kind.

1276
01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:33,559
Speaker 1: And if I stop and think about why those people

1277
01:12:33,960 --> 01:12:37,800
Speaker 1: say those things, I'm actually able to like pull the

1278
01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:43,040
Speaker 1: thread and understand, not agree with, but understand how they

1279
01:12:43,080 --> 01:12:47,240
Speaker 1: got there. And so in that respect, I've sort of

1280
01:12:47,280 --> 01:12:50,479
Speaker 1: taken a moment to try and find empathy for those

1281
01:12:50,520 --> 01:12:53,040
Speaker 1: people who you know, would say horrible things about me.

1282
01:12:53,120 --> 01:12:59,360
Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh, actually, you're probably well the comment section,

1283
01:12:59,439 --> 01:13:02,200
Speaker 1: you probably see that you're feeling powerless, you're trying to

1284
01:13:02,240 --> 01:13:05,639
Speaker 1: pay the bills, it's been night, et cetera. And there's

1285
01:13:05,680 --> 01:13:08,759
Speaker 1: something that you can write this comment and you feel

1286
01:13:08,800 --> 01:13:12,200
Speaker 1: real good about yourself. You're like, oh, yeah, take that. Oh,

1287
01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:15,120
Speaker 1: and you've got a little sense of power in your

1288
01:13:15,120 --> 01:13:17,160
Speaker 1: life that you didn't have before. There's sort of the

1289
01:13:17,240 --> 01:13:20,200
Speaker 1: larger architects of it all, you know, I think are

1290
01:13:20,320 --> 01:13:22,800
Speaker 1: benefiting in other ways, and they just take advantage of

1291
01:13:22,800 --> 01:13:24,640
Speaker 1: people's emotions to exploit that.

1292
01:13:25,840 --> 01:13:30,919
Speaker 2: I found a great relief once I started doing meta meditation,

1293
01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:34,000
Speaker 2: loving kindness meditation and this sort of thing. But it

1294
01:13:34,040 --> 01:13:37,599
Speaker 2: is hard to do. But to model that is very,

1295
01:13:37,720 --> 01:13:42,000
Speaker 2: very important, and I hope you don't have to then that.

1296
01:13:42,680 --> 01:13:46,160
Speaker 2: I hope that is your legacy. There may be a

1297
01:13:46,240 --> 01:13:49,960
Speaker 2: particular ruling of you know, genic versus something twenty twenty six,

1298
01:13:50,640 --> 01:13:53,320
Speaker 2: which is the legacy. There is the legal precedent. I

1299
01:13:53,360 --> 01:13:56,200
Speaker 2: hope it doesn't count to that. But you can't be

1300
01:13:56,240 --> 01:13:58,200
Speaker 2: what you can't see, and to be someone under fire

1301
01:13:58,280 --> 01:14:02,120
Speaker 2: like you are, but to lead with kindness instead, that's

1302
01:14:02,160 --> 01:14:03,080
Speaker 2: freaking beautiful. Man.

1303
01:14:03,280 --> 01:14:06,559
Speaker 1: Thanks, and I've After I read the book to the

1304
01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:09,320
Speaker 1: kids for the first time and saw how much they

1305
01:14:09,320 --> 01:14:13,240
Speaker 1: loved the ibis, I went home and penned the second book.

1306
01:14:13,520 --> 01:14:16,600
Speaker 2: Ah, I could do a whole of the podcasts with

1307
01:14:16,640 --> 01:14:20,200
Speaker 2: you about I can't wait for the second book.

1308
01:14:20,280 --> 01:14:22,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, Confetti and the Bin Chicken.

1309
01:14:28,120 --> 01:14:31,400
Speaker 2: And that was Shane Jenik. The book is called Confetti

1310
01:14:31,439 --> 01:14:33,720
Speaker 2: and the Rainbow Garden. It's a beautiful kid's book. It's

1311
01:14:33,800 --> 01:14:36,000
Speaker 2: very colorful. It's a delight to read. Wolf he does

1312
01:14:36,080 --> 01:14:39,360
Speaker 2: enjoy reading it, and it's very well put together and

1313
01:14:39,640 --> 01:14:43,200
Speaker 2: has a delightful message as well. Confetti and the Rainbow Garden.

1314
01:14:43,240 --> 01:14:45,439
Speaker 2: It's a beautifu book. And I couldn't be more grateful

1315
01:14:45,479 --> 01:14:48,720
Speaker 2: to have known Chaine for such a long time. I've

1316
01:14:48,760 --> 01:14:51,600
Speaker 2: known change since he was a teenager, and it's a

1317
01:14:51,600 --> 01:14:54,200
Speaker 2: real treat to be able to see him grow and

1318
01:14:54,240 --> 01:14:58,320
Speaker 2: mature and become the powerhouse that he is. Thank you

1319
01:14:58,320 --> 01:15:00,720
Speaker 2: so much for listening. If you want a bit of

1320
01:15:00,760 --> 01:15:03,160
Speaker 2: a kick, you can head onto the YouTube and check

1321
01:15:03,160 --> 01:15:05,560
Speaker 2: out the story cloud page on YouTube the links in

1322
01:15:05,600 --> 01:15:07,479
Speaker 2: the show notes. That's where it's some fresh stories. Rosy

1323
01:15:07,479 --> 01:15:10,080
Speaker 2: Waterlon story went up last week as well as well.

1324
01:15:10,120 --> 01:15:11,920
Speaker 2: That's the show notes. You can get the link to

1325
01:15:12,040 --> 01:15:14,920
Speaker 2: by So what now What. It's the perfect Christmas gift.

1326
01:15:15,280 --> 01:15:17,160
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the show. If it helped, please

1327
01:15:17,200 --> 01:15:19,439
Speaker 2: send it to someone like it, subscribe it, rate it,

1328
01:15:19,479 --> 01:15:21,920
Speaker 2: follow it, whatever you can do and I'll see you

1329
01:15:21,960 --> 01:15:31,360
Speaker 2: back here on Monday,