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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life. The average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever wondered what it's like to rob a bank?

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Speaker 1: What planning goes into preparing for the job. How do

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Speaker 1: you select the bank? What weapon are you a going

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Speaker 1: to take? What's the best disguise? Have you got to

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Speaker 1: get away plan robbery? What do you do with the cash?

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Speaker 1: What do you do when you are the most wanted

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Speaker 1: man in the country. Well, today we're going to find

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Speaker 1: that out because we're talking to one half of the

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Speaker 1: After Dark Bandit crew, who were responsible for over twenty

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Speaker 1: bank and tab robberies. We're talking to former and now

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Speaker 1: reformed bank robber Doug Morgan. Doug Morgan, welcome to I

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Speaker 1: Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I'm supposed to say, it's good to be here.

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Speaker 1: That's I gave you your lines. You did sign the

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Speaker 1: statement bring back memories.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, something like that. No, no, if you want you

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Speaker 2: want to go there. My brother made all the statements

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Speaker 2: and they just copied his statements and then tried to

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Speaker 2: persuade me to sign what the police wrote. And every

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Speaker 2: time there was a different copper doing the interview, it

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Speaker 2: was a different vocabulary.

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Speaker 1: Now you're talking, you're talking the old days, good old days,

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Speaker 1: bad old days. It depends on what way you look

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Speaker 1: at things.

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Speaker 2: But I look at it positively because still here.

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Speaker 1: Well that's yea. We've got through it. And you certainly

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Speaker 1: got through it. You've lived a life. I've been doing

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Speaker 1: a bit of research on the stuff that you've done

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Speaker 1: and different things, so you certainly got a story to tell.

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Speaker 1: And when I was asking you the other day, when

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Speaker 1: we're having a chat about how you plan your robberies

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Speaker 1: and that I could feel the adrenaline and the intensity

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Speaker 1: when you're talking about it, and it reminded me of

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Speaker 1: the same type of feel that we had when I

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Speaker 1: was in the stick Ups for a while in the

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Speaker 1: early nineties. So I don't think we were to cross paths,

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Speaker 1: but that intensity it was on for young and old

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Speaker 1: in those days, wasn't it.

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Speaker 2: Well, I was just going to throw that back at you.

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Speaker 2: You imagine if I come out of a bank, ride

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Speaker 2: a motorbike for about two or three kilometers and go

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Speaker 2: into the bush. Yep, how are you going to be

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Speaker 2: to come in at nighttime into the bush looking for me?

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure about no. I'll answer that I would

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Speaker 1: jump at the chance.

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Speaker 2: Not if you thought I was going to aim you up.

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Speaker 1: Oh well, we got things in place to deal with

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Speaker 1: those situations. But there there wasn't intensity, wasn't it There?

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Speaker 1: There was something about crime, And I talk now on

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Speaker 1: a true crime podcast. People don't appreciate how often these

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Speaker 1: crimes occurred, like bank robberies in the seventies eighties. They

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Speaker 1: were the crimes, weren't they.

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Speaker 2: Well, and I look back, it's why even we got involved.

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Speaker 2: Because my brother kept reading it in the newspapers and

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Speaker 2: continually tried to persuade me that we were up to

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Speaker 2: that sort of thing. So it was actually the newspapers

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Speaker 2: that prompted my brother to push forward with it and

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Speaker 2: to try and involve me in it. So and what

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Speaker 2: happened actually later on, in about ten years or five

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Speaker 2: years later, the newspapers and media had meetings with the

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Speaker 2: Victorian Police, I believe, and decided to stop promoting the

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Speaker 2: amount of money bank robbers were getting, because they were

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Speaker 2: actually promoting it as a good job for people to

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Speaker 2: do if they needed twenty thirty cash. And when you

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Speaker 2: think about it, it was. And even my brother used

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Speaker 2: to follow the newspaper articles and basically play up to them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well it was. It was front page. And I'm

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Speaker 1: sure if a bank was held up today in Melbourne

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Speaker 1: or Sydney, Victoria and New South Wales for that matter,

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Speaker 1: it would be front page.

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Speaker 2: Because okay, can we just get a time and date

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Speaker 2: what I'm here? So I've got an aliboy.

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Speaker 1: See, you can't change completely, can you? But I like

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Speaker 1: the way you're thinking. If you go into it, you've

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Speaker 1: got to commit. Now we're going to talk about a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff today. There's so much to cover and

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about we're joking about the robberies.

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Speaker 1: But I worked on the side of the cops who

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Speaker 1: worked on the other side, and we both know the

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Speaker 1: impact that it had on people. And we will talk

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Speaker 1: about talk about that because we're making a little bit

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Speaker 1: light at the moment.

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Speaker 2: Sure, and I think that's very important. And the only

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Speaker 2: book that's haven't really been written about me, Jeff Wilkinson

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Speaker 2: gave the victims a voice.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 2: And when people ask me about the book, I go

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Speaker 2: forget everything else. I actually appreciate the fact that Jeff

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Speaker 2: gave the victims a voice. And when I read about

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Speaker 2: some of the victims that even helped Ray Coshu were

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Speaker 2: shot and his best mate was an ambulance guy and

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Speaker 2: he looked after Ray for the next couple of years

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Speaker 2: for his hardship. And I rang Jaff and said, can

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Speaker 2: I meet these people because I really like them?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, Well it was a traumatic experience, and

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about that. And the other thing. We're talking

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Speaker 1: about a crime that's almost a crime from a bygone era,

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Speaker 1: like banks aren't getting robbed now. Because I don't want

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Speaker 1: you to get in trouble because I'm going to ask

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Speaker 1: you about how you plan a bank robbery, and I

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Speaker 1: don't want to encourage people to do it, but I

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Speaker 1: think for our listeners, we've had a lot of people

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Speaker 1: on the podcast that talk about the robberies and that,

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Speaker 1: but I want to really break it down with you

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Speaker 1: on how you plan a robbery if you're happy to.

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Speaker 1: And I don't want you get any ideas. There's no

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Speaker 1: money in the banks anymore, so Doug, don't even think

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Speaker 1: about it.

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Speaker 2: The truth is I live about two kilometers from a

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Speaker 2: bank we cased forty years ago and only just shut

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Speaker 2: about a month ago, and I damn missed it.

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Speaker 1: Well, if you ran in the day with a gun

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Speaker 1: and demanded money, they'd say you've got to download the

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Speaker 1: app and what's your passwords? So you'd be stuffed.

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Speaker 2: The thing is I would have to change my style

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Speaker 2: a little.

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Speaker 1: Bit, adapt with the times. Okay, So let's break it

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Speaker 1: down just for so the listeners to get a sense

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Speaker 1: of where you've been, who you are, how many robberies

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Speaker 1: did you do? And I only want you to talk

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Speaker 1: about the ones you've been convicted of. I don't want

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Speaker 1: us to end up in court, but.

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Speaker 2: I'm just checking behind me. See if there's anybody with

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Speaker 2: the old Tellaphone book trying to get me to confess

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Speaker 2: to another one. Look, the reality, yes, we did about

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Speaker 2: twenty three twenty four. I'm not even sure of the

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Speaker 2: amount because it's not really significant in any way the

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Speaker 2: amount because and it was once. I think my brother

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Speaker 2: even blame you blokes for us continuing because you couldn't

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Speaker 2: catch us, so it was your fault, um. And the

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Speaker 2: reality is, after about twenty three twenty four jobs, there

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Speaker 2: was not one sceric of evidence against Peter Morgan or

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Speaker 2: Doug Morgan because the way we plan and we're tactical

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Speaker 2: maneuvers and playing chess with the police and et cetera,

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Speaker 2: et cetera. But that was all planned like that. But

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Speaker 2: the reality is we did do a lot of armed robberies.

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Speaker 2: We did make it almost impossible for you guys to

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Speaker 2: get an MO honors or even track us down during

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Speaker 2: the day. Because when it was put to me about

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Speaker 2: doing armed robberies, I said to my brother, well, you're kidding,

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Speaker 2: aren't you. I'm not running out of a bank or

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Speaker 2: any place blindly not knowing where the local you know,

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Speaker 2: there could be a copper and pressing, which is one

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Speaker 2: of our suburbs. He could be having lunch across the

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Speaker 2: road and I run out of a bank, and so

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Speaker 2: I said to when well, and I think I explained

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Speaker 2: it to some people now. I don't walk through long

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Speaker 2: grass in summer because I don't know who the sakes are.

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Speaker 2: I don't dive into dark water because I don't know

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Speaker 2: where the sharks are. And I don't run out of

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Speaker 2: banks not knowing where the coppers are.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So that sounds like there was a bit of

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Speaker 1: a bit of planning that goes into it. Over those

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Speaker 1: twenty three or so banks and tabs were your area

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Speaker 1: of expertise. How long a period were you doing the

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Speaker 1: robberies for.

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Speaker 2: I think, well, I know it was seventy seven, seventy eight,

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Speaker 2: and seventy nine only I retired in seventy eight and

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Speaker 2: told my brother such, and which caused a lot of

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Speaker 2: agro between us because I was trying to get him

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Speaker 2: to stop doing the arm robbies, because I knew he

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Speaker 2: was going to get us caught or killed. So I

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Speaker 2: really only did it for like two seas. I think

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Speaker 2: they were calling seasons in the press because they suggested

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Speaker 2: we only did it in winter, and they suggested it

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Speaker 2: was because of the after dark bend, it might be

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Speaker 2: scared of snakes in summer. But the truth was our planning.

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Speaker 2: Even you're talking about the planning, so even that winter

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Speaker 2: was planned because the helicopter in the city could get

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Speaker 2: to say a location in half an hour. Right now,

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Speaker 2: In those days there was rumors that have had thermal

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Speaker 2: in the helicopters. I don't know if that was really

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Speaker 2: true or if it was not as good as it

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Speaker 2: is today. But what we looked at was if they

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Speaker 2: take half an hour to get the helicopter up there,

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Speaker 2: the closer we are till dark from the robbery, the

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Speaker 2: better off we are. So winter is dark in Melbourne

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Speaker 2: at about five minutes past five. The closer you can

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Speaker 2: get your target hit time to five minutes past five,

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Speaker 2: the less time you're in daylight. Now, I'll give you

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Speaker 2: there's another part of the planning. Why do you want

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Speaker 2: the darkness? When you were a little child and you

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Speaker 2: played hide and seek when you're having a family party,

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Speaker 2: if you ran out of the house as a six

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Speaker 2: year old and you ran up the street in daylight,

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Speaker 2: you're easily found. If it's nighttime you run out of

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Speaker 2: the street, you only have to run around one corner

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Speaker 2: and you're gone. So part of our planning was making

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Speaker 2: your your opportunity to catch us limited.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I understand the logic behind that. That makes sense.

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Speaker 1: How do you pick the target bank? Or what are

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Speaker 1: you looking for?

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Speaker 2: All right? What I'm looking for is less vision into

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Speaker 2: the premises, so no passes by sees what's going on.

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Speaker 2: So that would be one thing. So like my last

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Speaker 2: bank had big wooden doors, which would be good if

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Speaker 2: we shut those once I go in, how to window

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Speaker 2: into the manager's office, but not into the main foyer,

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Speaker 2: so there was no vision into the actual bank itself

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Speaker 2: once the doors were closed. So one thing is let's say,

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Speaker 2: so that's the bank, then we've got to look at

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Speaker 2: the main street. What we have to look at is

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Speaker 2: how many ways out of the main street if something

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Speaker 2: goes wrong? Has the bank got side doors or a

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Speaker 2: back door? So with if you find an establishment or

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Speaker 2: police officers turn up at the front door. I was

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Speaker 2: thinking about it the other night. I could probably even

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Speaker 2: come to the front door and let you in long

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Speaker 2: time in control. But if you've got a side door,

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Speaker 2: it means we're not going to have a confrontation because

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Speaker 2: you're going to knock on the front door to start with,

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Speaker 2: unless you really know I'm there, then you're going to

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Speaker 2: be more guarded with your approach. So everything is thought

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Speaker 2: about with the ease of doing the job, because the

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Speaker 2: ease of doing the job means safety for staff, customers,

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Speaker 2: myself and also you. Blokes. I was looking after you.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's the reality of the game that we're in.

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Speaker 1: If we came across you, like, guns are going to

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Speaker 1: be drawn and things are going to happen. That's the reality.

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Speaker 2: And I'm going to clarify that right now. I carried

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Speaker 2: usually an unloaded shotgun. If I was to put loaded,

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Speaker 2: it had buckshot. Now what do you reckon? My chances

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Speaker 2: are against you with a thirty eight or forty five, Doug, I.

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Speaker 1: Want to put this politely, you'd be stuffed, do you reckon?

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Speaker 2: I didn't know that, so I had to make sure

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Speaker 2: my planning was very, very very good.

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Speaker 1: So it was it you weren't looking at confrontation. You

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Speaker 1: wanted to avoid confrontation. By the sounds of the banks

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Speaker 1: you're targeting, you're looking at Okay, people can't see what's

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Speaker 1: going on in the bank. So when all the drama's

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Speaker 1: going on in the bank and your exit to exit strategy.

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Speaker 2: Sure, And look, even if you look at my personality,

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Speaker 2: I won't even argue with a girlfriend or a wife,

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Speaker 2: let alone argue with you blokes.

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Speaker 1: So you're not stupid, Doug. You just a bank robber exactly.

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Speaker 2: But even like in all my robberies, and this all

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Speaker 2: astounds you. Yeah, I used to count customers and customers

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Speaker 2: out because I'm a trained bank teller, so I only

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Speaker 2: want to deal with people who are being trained in

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Speaker 2: the situation. I don't want to deal with people that

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Speaker 2: are going to freak out or even become heroes, because

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Speaker 2: bank staff will not become heroes. Bank staff are instructed

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Speaker 2: to get rid of the person as quickly as possible

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Speaker 2: with the least amount of fuss. Now, only one customer

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Speaker 2: and all the jobs I did, And that was in

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Speaker 2: a chaab one night, and I'm a wonderful blake when

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Speaker 2: I do a robbery. I walked into a chab one

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Speaker 2: night and it was a bloke putting a bed on. Yep,

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Speaker 2: I've walked up behind him and lined up. The guy

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Speaker 2: running the chab looks over this guy's shoulder and sees me,

264
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Speaker 2: and I said, it's all right, take his bet. He

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Speaker 2: might have a winner tonight and I'll wait.

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Speaker 1: Right, Okay, that's through story, pretty pretty calm. Is it

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Speaker 1: true that I read in researching for the podcast that

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Speaker 1: you and your brother were builders or are builders? Yes,

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Speaker 1: And there was a time when the money wasn't paid

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Speaker 1: that someone, and that's not new to the building trade,

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Speaker 1: where the accounts weren't settled, and your brother decided to

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Speaker 1: rob a bank.

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Speaker 2: Sure. And the funny thing about that is he kept switching.

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Speaker 2: He was always unreliable as far as work goes, and

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Speaker 2: I would let him manage our let's say who we

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Speaker 2: worked for, and I was the main person in the

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Speaker 2: physical work. And the better of it. He had got

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Speaker 2: us a new builder and they hadn't paid us for

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Speaker 2: two house frames. So that was a sizeable amount of

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Speaker 2: money even in those days. It didn't come through before Easter.

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Speaker 2: The check they used to send you a check. He said,

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Speaker 2: I've got no money for Easter. I'm pulling this job.

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Speaker 2: The check for two houses turned up two days after Easter, right, okay,

284
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Speaker 2: after the first robbery, and the.

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Speaker 1: Die had already been cast and you were running with it.

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Speaker 1: Can you remember the first time you went into a

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Speaker 1: bank to rob it or tab the first time you

288
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Speaker 1: went in to do a robbery, what were you wearing?

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Speaker 1: Did you have a mask on? And how'd you feel?

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Speaker 2: So even that all gets down to planning on being

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Speaker 2: sensible about I always wore something that I wasn't totally

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Speaker 2: committed to the bank job till I made the final decision.

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Speaker 2: So I'd wear a hoodie like a very they used

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Speaker 2: to call them sailors jackets and those very thin plastic

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Speaker 2: with a hoodie, and I'd have a scarf like a

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Speaker 2: cowboy around my neck and i'd pull that up as

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Speaker 2: I went in when I'm not wearing the hoodie over

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Speaker 2: my head. I'd learn from my father, if you put

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Speaker 2: bill cream in your hair, my hair will be black.

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Speaker 1: Right.

301
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Speaker 2: I'd wear horn written glasses to walk around that had

302
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Speaker 2: no lenses but just clear glass. So I'm a blake

303
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,800
Speaker 2: with black hair and dark glasses, sorry, dark frame glasses.

304
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Speaker 2: So the descriptions are very poor when you're doing a

305
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Speaker 2: photo fit. But when I get close to the area

306
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Speaker 2: or close to the time, I have to really protect

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Speaker 2: my identity. As such, I would shave a mustache if

308
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Speaker 2: I had one, just in case I was seen two

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Speaker 2: hours earlier, my brother did didn't follow any of these rules,

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Speaker 2: and he wore a monkey mask. Now, when you pull

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Speaker 2: a monkey mask on twenty feet or a foot, it's

312
00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:11,840
Speaker 2: one hundred yards away from a bank, you've committed yourself. Now,

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Speaker 2: what I found out later, our rules were you don't

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Speaker 2: carry a license or wallet, you shave your mow, et cetera,

315
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Speaker 2: et cetera. When he was arrested, he hadn't shaved his

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Speaker 2: mo a red a red mustache which stands out like

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Speaker 2: Max Walker, the cricketer. Yeah, and he was carrying his

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Speaker 2: wallet and identification.

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Speaker 1: What makes our job is you?

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Speaker 2: Well, the thing is we actually had a let him

321
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Speaker 2: shoot you dead, but don't give up rule and don't

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Speaker 2: have identification. Our planning was actually, if you die today,

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Speaker 2: that's the end of the after Dark band.

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Speaker 1: Yeah okay, well that was a good exit plan for

325
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Speaker 1: one of you anyway.

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Speaker 2: So hopefully it was going to be him.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So okay, you've gone in there. The weapon of choice?

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Speaker 1: What did you have the same weapon when you're robbing

329
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Speaker 1: these robbing these banks?

330
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Speaker 2: And when I first started, my brother was buying weapons

331
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Speaker 2: with his license, and he was paying twenty nine dollars

332
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Speaker 2: for a shotgun, or I think he sent one hundred

333
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Speaker 2: dollars on a really big jay, which was a twenty

334
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Speaker 2: two automatic that looked like a sixteen. But what I

335
00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,199
Speaker 2: had was, I went he spent twenty nine dollars to

336
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,440
Speaker 2: buy a shotgun in those days, I spent fifty nine

337
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Speaker 2: dollars to buy an imitation pistol.

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Speaker 1: Right, right, you go with the citation.

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00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,240
Speaker 2: I spent an extra thirty thirty dollars to make you

340
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Speaker 2: bloke safe.

341
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Speaker 1: So with the going in there with that, Okay, say

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Speaker 1: I walk in there, I'm a cop back in those days,

343
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Speaker 1: what was what was going to be? You're going to

344
00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:41,400
Speaker 1: pull the gum on the cop or pull the gum

345
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Speaker 1: on the security guard and see who can blink first?

346
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Speaker 1: What was your plan?

347
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Speaker 2: In a strange way, I'm actually happy I never really

348
00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,639
Speaker 2: had to answer that question in life. And if I

349
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:55,440
Speaker 2: had to be honest, you want me to be really honest? Yeah,

350
00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,680
Speaker 2: I try to be honest with people. My brother was

351
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Speaker 2: arrested by an unarmed copper. He had three guns, and

352
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,080
Speaker 2: my brother twice allowed a copper to walk up with

353
00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,200
Speaker 2: an arm's length and wrestle for the gun. Twice because

354
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,240
Speaker 2: he allowed that to happen. One copper got shot because

355
00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:14,919
Speaker 2: you don't wrestle with guns, and people say, well, what

356
00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:16,639
Speaker 2: do you see guns? As I go, Well, they're for

357
00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:20,080
Speaker 2: shooting rabbits because I lived on a farm. And if

358
00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:23,960
Speaker 2: I firing warning shots. So if if you were coming

359
00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,120
Speaker 2: down a lane way or you're coming at me and

360
00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,640
Speaker 2: I have the chance, I will fire a warning shot.

361
00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:34,480
Speaker 2: Now if you continue, if you've got your gun drawing,

362
00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:35,840
Speaker 2: well this is going to be it's going to end

363
00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:37,600
Speaker 2: badly for me because you've got a bigger He's simple,

364
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:41,080
Speaker 2: you're a bigger gun. Now let's say you're too far

365
00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:43,160
Speaker 2: away to have a shot at me or whatever. I'll

366
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:44,919
Speaker 2: tell you what I would have done. I'm not going

367
00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,000
Speaker 2: to hide from it because I was a bangrover. I

368
00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:49,159
Speaker 2: am not going to jail and so I really have to.

369
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,320
Speaker 2: I heard they weren't a nice place. Now I'll tell

370
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,000
Speaker 2: you what I do. I would fire a warning shot

371
00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:59,720
Speaker 2: so while you take cover, I can move to the left.

372
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,080
Speaker 2: When I go to the left, I'm going to then

373
00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,040
Speaker 2: try and skirt to the right without you seeing me. Now,

374
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,240
Speaker 2: if it continues, I might have to fire a second

375
00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:12,160
Speaker 2: warning shot to continue my evasion. It's all about when

376
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,600
Speaker 2: people said to me, what's it about. It's about Therefore,

377
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,159
Speaker 2: shooting rabbits or warning shots. That's the end of the story.

378
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,320
Speaker 2: Now I have to scare you enough to make you

379
00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:25,840
Speaker 2: take cover so I can avoid being captured. If it

380
00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,080
Speaker 2: came down to a gun battle, I know I'm going

381
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,720
Speaker 2: to lose, so I'm going to avoid that at all cost.

382
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,879
Speaker 1: Okay, so it wasn't a fatalistic Well, if the cops come,

383
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,040
Speaker 1: it's on them. See who walks out. You weren't going

384
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:37,640
Speaker 1: to go that fat.

385
00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,200
Speaker 2: I don't think there's any crime in the world that's

386
00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:45,840
Speaker 2: worth hurting another human being. I even in jail, even

387
00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:50,520
Speaker 2: on the streets, I've never attacked anybody unless they physically

388
00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,120
Speaker 2: put their hand on me. I actually run that rule

389
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Speaker 2: from John Wayne. There was a movie where he said,

390
00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:00,680
Speaker 2: don't transgress others and don't let them try agress you.

391
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,920
Speaker 1: Life theories from John Wayne. It's not that not that

392
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,920
Speaker 1: bad a theory. But well, I've been in the stick ups,

393
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,639
Speaker 1: in the armhold up squad, and also it was a

394
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,640
Speaker 1: local detective. Been involved in a lot of arrests where

395
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:17,639
Speaker 1: people were going in to do banks and we've come

396
00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,320
Speaker 1: at them, especially with the tactical side of things, jump

397
00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:22,960
Speaker 1: out of the van and you might have one shotgun

398
00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:25,720
Speaker 1: and we got ten shotguns pointing at you, and things

399
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:29,280
Speaker 1: settled down pretty quickly. But we'd go in there knowing

400
00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:31,359
Speaker 1: that we could overpower, so it doesn't end up in

401
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:32,240
Speaker 1: a shoeout.

402
00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,119
Speaker 2: Sure, well, you've overlooked the fact we were planning. This

403
00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,240
Speaker 2: is not you what we did. We went to town's

404
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,119
Speaker 2: and my brother would go and do weekend trips all

405
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:45,280
Speaker 2: around Victoria. He would note how many police cars, how

406
00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,840
Speaker 2: many banks are in the town. Now, there's another thing

407
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:51,240
Speaker 2: you'll probably if you're probably not a country copper. Yeah,

408
00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:53,520
Speaker 2: but in the old days, country coppers might have to

409
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,320
Speaker 2: go to the next town where the court cases were,

410
00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:01,360
Speaker 2: even for domestic things or even speeding fines. So sometimes

411
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:03,480
Speaker 2: there was no copper in the town because he was

412
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,200
Speaker 2: in the next town thirty kilometers away.

413
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,760
Speaker 1: How much how much reconnaissance would you do before you

414
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:12,920
Speaker 1: did a job? Like, I know what you're saying. Like

415
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,560
Speaker 1: you might say, well, the cops at this trial, that's.

416
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:17,560
Speaker 2: Well, have you ever heard a bank robber talk about that?

417
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:18,840
Speaker 1: No? I haven't.

418
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,520
Speaker 2: That's why I'm asking, Well, the bank I did last

419
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,760
Speaker 2: I had been into that bank three years earlier, before

420
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,960
Speaker 2: I was a bank robber, because I was a bank teller.

421
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,960
Speaker 2: I walked in and I looked around. I was getting

422
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,879
Speaker 2: changed for the phone, and those days, that's what you did,

423
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:37,560
Speaker 2: you went to a bank and got changed for the phone.

424
00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,920
Speaker 2: And I looked at their just as a bank teller.

425
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,439
Speaker 2: Occasually looking around the bank, I noticed their procedures were

426
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,719
Speaker 2: very slack. I noticed where the alarm lights were. They

427
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:50,399
Speaker 2: used to have a little red lights in the foyer

428
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,880
Speaker 2: and in the bank manager's office. I know all these things,

429
00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,320
Speaker 2: and also the regulations, all your rules that you run

430
00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,520
Speaker 2: by as a bank teller, that you'll take the money

431
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:02,720
Speaker 2: that you need for your chill and you should leave

432
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:06,320
Speaker 2: most of the other trays still in the safe. This bank,

433
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,399
Speaker 2: I observed that they had excessive cash lying behind the

434
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:14,119
Speaker 2: bank teller on other shelves, and I noted that that

435
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,399
Speaker 2: this was a national bank. Now to add to that,

436
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,760
Speaker 2: I remember walking into the very biggest national bank in

437
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 2: Geelong one day and observed the same lack of procedure

438
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:29,080
Speaker 2: and noted that if years later, when I became a banker,

439
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 2: I went, that's good inside information about a bank if

440
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 2: they're not running to procedures. So that bank was picked

441
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,359
Speaker 2: out because of what I knew about their procedures.

442
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,879
Speaker 1: So when you go into a bank, then you've sussed

443
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 1: amount you know about the procedures and all that. Was

444
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 1: it a case that you were going into rob and

445
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,680
Speaker 1: grab as much cash as you could that wasn't locked

446
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:51,880
Speaker 1: away in the safe or did you put the gun

447
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,720
Speaker 1: to someone's head and I want the safe open? Sort

448
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 1: of what went on in the in the banks.

449
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 2: Look, it's funny you say that, because I'm still a

450
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 2: believer that my body language and the way I talked

451
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 2: to people was more powerful than the gun in that

452
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:08,800
Speaker 2: particular job. We're just talking about the one that I

453
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,080
Speaker 2: knew the procedures were low. While they were taking the

454
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,040
Speaker 2: money out of the safe and put into a big

455
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 2: box and brought to the counter, I put my gun

456
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 2: on the counter, just left it there while I was

457
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 2: reloading the money. And the funny thing was I had

458
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 2: brought it. In the old days, when you went on aeroplanes,

459
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 2: they'd give you a TAA bag or something like a

460
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 2: shoulder bag. My bag wasn't big enough for the loot, right,

461
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 2: so I had to actually borrow a bag from them. Okay,

462
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 2: So they got me a bag and etc. So that

463
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,639
Speaker 2: soh half the robbery. There was no guns point, There

464
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 2: was no guns in my hand. How long were you

465
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,680
Speaker 2: in the bank for on that one with that national

466
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,920
Speaker 2: Well some people say it's a world record. I was

467
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 2: there for twenty four minutes.

468
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 1: Twenty four minutes, that's to my way of thinking, that's

469
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 1: a recipe for disaster. Twenty four minutes.

470
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 2: Well not if you know what's not if you know

471
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 2: the town and one copper and did you have the

472
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 2: did you have the doors locked? Like the front doors

473
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 2: were locked. The alarms hadn't gone off, ye, right, three

474
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 2: minutes past three, closing at three, so there's no suspicion

475
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 2: in the town. I actually said to them lock the

476
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 2: front doors because I know that the alarms haven't gone

477
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,440
Speaker 2: off and they won't be going off, and I've come

478
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,399
Speaker 2: for the money and we'll all be going home tonight.

479
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 1: What sort of conversation that you have with the people

480
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 1: when they're in there in the bank.

481
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 2: Sometimes i'd mentioned the traffic was bad.

482
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 1: Yep, what as in just a general put them off guard?

483
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: Normal to you the same way as I talk to them.

484
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 2: But I don't change. This is me.

485
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 1: Did anyone ark up at you.

486
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 2: No, I think really your presence. I think if you

487
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 2: run in like look, do you know what I'm going

488
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,160
Speaker 2: to give you? What my opinion of me, Me being

489
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 2: a bank robber and all the other bank robbers, they're

490
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 2: just bloody laborers because they're no good at anything else.

491
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 2: So I don't have great respect for myself being a

492
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 2: bank robber or anybody that runs into a bank because

493
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 2: I grew up, perhaps with a romantic thought that the

494
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 2: only decent crook was the old save cracker.

495
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 1: Well that was a pecking order at one stage, wasn't it.

496
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 2: The breakers absolutely absolutely, and to running with a gun cruse,

497
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 2: I can't rob saves.

498
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And I suppose the reputation of the bank

499
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 1: robbers dropped down a bit when the drug trade came in,

500
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 1: and that was junkies robbing banks and just grabbing a

501
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 1: knife and walking past the bank and running in that

502
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 1: type of stuff.

503
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 2: Sure, but even with a lot of there's some very

504
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 2: well known boys that were in the teams in Melbourne

505
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 2: and the seventies and a few of them got shot

506
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 2: by coppers by the way, um, and that started the

507
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 2: war down here between the armor of squad and like

508
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 2: wall street and all these sort of things. There's always

509
00:25:55,480 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 2: backstories to everything. Now, I don't condone my soul shooting

510
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 2: your side in any shape or form, And I actually

511
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,959
Speaker 2: don't even condone you guys shooting us unless you've been

512
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 2: put in that situation, which means if I drive you

513
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 2: to that, I can't really complain. But he did turn

514
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 2: into that here. But what I was about to say

515
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 2: was through my twelve years or so behind bars with

516
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 2: let's say all that we'll call them the elite MELBN gangs, Right, yeah,

517
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 2: I found out a lot of them would take drugs

518
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 2: or alcohol before a job.

519
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,399
Speaker 1: Well, that was going to be one of my questions, Like,

520
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 1: what before you go in the bank, You've got to

521
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 1: go in with the knowledge that could go shit. There

522
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 1: could be a cop in there, a security guard, and

523
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,399
Speaker 1: someone's got a gun on you, and that could be

524
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,200
Speaker 1: the last moment you spent in this world. What was

525
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 1: the adrenaline like before you win in My brother has.

526
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 2: Been quoted in press all over the world because he

527
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 2: says silly things like that and said that the greatest

528
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 2: druggle in the world adrenaline. And I was high on it,

529
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,120
Speaker 2: and you know, I sort of looked at that and went,

530
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 2: what is he talking about? Because I try to explain

531
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 2: this to people, because I've done tours in jails on that,

532
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 2: and I try to bring it down so people will

533
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 2: understand that could not possibly nder. Look, I don't know

534
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 2: what it's like to have cancer, So when I'm trying

535
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 2: to explain to you what a bank is like being

536
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 2: doing at bank, I've got to bring it down to

537
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 2: something that you might understand. Now, a bank, to me

538
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 2: is black and white, exactly like in the building trade.

539
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 2: If I have to get onto rickety scaffle, I am

540
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 2: taking a calculated risk and I have to summons myself

541
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 2: up to if the risk is worth nailing that piece

542
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 2: of timber up. And I've probably been more worried or

543
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 2: more at risk on a high scaffle than if I

544
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 2: plan a job properly, because the planning, if you stick

545
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 2: to the planning. And I know how many coppers are

546
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 2: in the town, like even one robbery I did, I

547
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 2: remember walking up to the police station beforehand and putting

548
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 2: a screwdriver through his tire so the local copper could

549
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 2: not even jump in his car, and if he did,

550
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 2: he would get about thirty yards and go and then

551
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 2: start running down the street. So there was a lot

552
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 2: more to it than people can possibly imagine. If you're

553
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 2: really planning or becoming a tactician, do you look at

554
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,919
Speaker 2: the type of people in the bank too, Like if

555
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 2: there's yeah, a bloke there, you think he could be trouble.

556
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 1: This is before we had security guards, but because they

557
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 1: used to back in those days too, they used to

558
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 1: the bank tellers or the manager with a gun as well.

559
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I was trained. I was a bank teller, but

560
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 2: I was seventeen, so I wasn't allowed to actually have

561
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 2: a gun, but we were trained, and everybody else around

562
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 2: me had the option of having a gun at their desk,

563
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 2: even behind the bank tellers. People at desks in those

564
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 2: days would have a gun. So I'm aware all that.

565
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 2: But the staff is instructed and the same as my

566
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 2: training as a bank teller, take notes, get rid of

567
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 2: the person as quickly as possible, and do not use

568
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 2: your gun because if you hit a customer, the bank's

569
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 2: going to be in a lot of trouble. So we

570
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 2: were told not to use weapons. Yeah, it was a

571
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 2: wild West days. It was potential for disaster, and also

572
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 2: just having common sense, I would observe what happens in

573
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 2: other robberies. And usually, and you might know this, or

574
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 2: you might have observed it yourself, that occasionally there will

575
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 2: be an old man in a robbery who takes of

576
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 2: fence to young LUTs robbing his shop or bank.

577
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 1: Well, that was the question when I said, have you

578
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 1: ever had anyone cup? I was thinking an old man

579
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: or even an old lady. Don't be so rude, young man,

580
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 1: that type of attitude that comes back at some people

581
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: have gone into banks to Robert.

582
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 2: Sure, and that's why I counted customers in and out

583
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 2: so I could get rid of what are you trying

584
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 2: to do? Seriously, if you're serious about it as robbery

585
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 2: and not a violent robbery or not causing damage physically,

586
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 2: you have to look at all those angles, and if

587
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 2: you follow those procedures we had, you'll love this one.

588
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 2: I call it our rules of engagement.

589
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, it's good. They have rules and they work.

590
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 2: My rules of engagement was the first one. If you

591
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 2: go to the town and it's too hot, you'll walk away.

592
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 1: Geez.

593
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 2: That's almost like a line out of a movie. I

594
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 2: can remember, so I'll.

595
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 1: Away instinct instinct about something doesn't feel right about this

596
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: that's what you're talking about with it too.

597
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 2: Well, well, it's not so much that with us, because

598
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,959
Speaker 2: we were so hot that they were watching tairb's at

599
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 2: nighttime with local coppers getting over time. We were that

600
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 2: hot that they would be circling the town in their cars.

601
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 2: My brother did a chairb one night while the copper

602
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 2: was refueling his car at the service station, so he

603
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 2: knew there was a cop there, and yeah, he waited

604
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 2: for him to go to the service station. Now, even

605
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 2: in the town I lived in at Foster, I was

606
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 2: in the pub one night and the boys come running

607
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 2: and go, oh, they think the after dark band is

608
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 2: going to hit the tab and Foster tonight. And I

609
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 2: go what, And I go, what are you talking about?

610
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 2: And they go, Lowie who was the local copper. He's

611
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 2: sitting in a shop straight across from the tab with

612
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 2: the lights off, looking through the window, and I go,

613
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 2: you kidding, aren't you? And they didn't know I was

614
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 2: the after dark band. So I said, let's get a drink.

615
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 2: And I got more drink filled up and I said,

616
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 2: and I've led a group of three or four of

617
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 2: them that were telling me this stuff outside in the

618
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 2: street opposite the tab and leans against the window that

619
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 2: the local copper was behind, and I'm going, nah, I

620
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 2: don't reckon, he's ever robbed the place this far from Melbourne.

621
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 2: And they go, well, he must think that he's coming.

622
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 2: I said, ah, look if we have to have a

623
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 2: be on bet and he doesn't do.

624
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: It, okay, Well that's an unfair bit. So that's you

625
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: and your brother. So the after dark bandit that was

626
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 1: the cops were chasing what they believed one guy. But

627
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: you've got a twin brother called Pete that you and

628
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 1: him were doing the robberies, and sometimes you were confusing

629
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 1: the police by the fact that two places were getting

630
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 1: hit so quickly. But the same type of mo and

631
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 1: appearance and manner.

632
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 2: Look, if I answered that, I mean I'm not insulting

633
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 2: police as such. I'm insulting what your procedures are. Now

634
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 2: I do a job. You you bring in the roadblocks

635
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 2: and the searchers into the close area. So what happens

636
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 2: outside your little web of nets around that? Okaw? We

637
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 2: set up a perimeter, Yeah, yes, perimeter right, I've forgotten

638
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 2: the words. And then three or four minutes outside the perimeter,

639
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 2: another job goes off.

640
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 1: What do you do. Yeah, but Doug, in fairness, you

641
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: were a cheating There was two of you. We thought

642
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 1: there was one of you.

643
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 2: Well, sorry, I didn't know there was a handbog.

644
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: I am the rules. That was ungentlemanly conduct.

645
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 2: All right, I'll give you. I'll give you the best one.

646
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 1: Okay.

647
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 2: There was one night I'll do a country job. I

648
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 2: know the police station was at the end of a

649
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 2: long bridge crossing a river, so I know they're going

650
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 2: to roadblock it on the bridge, which is a logical spot,

651
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 2: makes sense. They had their forty four gallon drum with

652
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 2: a fire going right, all standing there talking there police

653
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 2: stuff and laughing and probably checking their gun every now

654
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 2: and to make sure it was loaded and cocked or whatever.

655
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 2: And they're checking the traffic coming across the bridge. So

656
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 2: I get to the bridge on underneath. It was a

657
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 2: really bad winter's night, and the river had actually expanded

658
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 2: about three times as normal size was running rapid. I

659
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 2: can't come across the bridge. I've got to swim the river.

660
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: So I swim the river right, get swept down stream,

661
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 2: and I look up as I go under the bridge.

662
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 2: I look up and I can see you blakes, cheery

663
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 2: and chatty.

664
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: By the big fire drifting down the river for a.

665
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 2: Moment, I think I seek help from the coppers so

666
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 2: I don't drown. Yeah, and I went stuff, and I'd

667
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 2: rather drown fair. I got swept down the river, get

668
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 2: to the bank and pull myself in the weeds, because like,

669
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 2: you see these things in movies, but you don't think

670
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,280
Speaker 2: it's really going to happen. So I grab the reason.

671
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 2: I'm trying to get myself back on the dry ground

672
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 2: on the other side. So in floating or being swept

673
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 2: down the river, I work my way sideway, so I'm

674
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 2: actually getting to the other side of the river, so

675
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 2: I'm still trying to achieve my goal. I walk up

676
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 2: near enough to them in the darkness at nighttime. Nighttime's

677
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 2: covering me again. I walk one hundred yards directly along

678
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 2: the same street where they're blocking. My brother's been sitting

679
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 2: there for half an hour watching the coppers in the

680
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 2: getaway car. I hop in and go. Lily drowned and

681
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 2: I said, car, let's go. He said, oh, let's see

682
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 2: here if I'm just watch them right okay, And I said, oh,

683
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 2: I'm pretty cold and tired, let's go. So he had

684
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 2: been watching them, watching me or waiting for.

685
00:34:57,680 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: Me when you're doing the robberies, and just to fill

686
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 1: people in on it so they understand there was when

687
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: you're doing those spade of robberies. Over a couple of

688
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: years there were banks going off a couple of times

689
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 1: a month. The media got hold of it. Then the

690
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 1: term was as usual with a series of bank robbers

691
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,320
Speaker 1: at different different titles. They get you guys got the

692
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 1: after Dark bandit because you're you're robbing the banks late

693
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 1: in the afternoon, as you've explained here, which that was

694
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 1: a fine moniker to have for your the after Dark Bandit.

695
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: But there was in fact two of you. We did.

696
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 1: We did.

697
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 2: We worked as a team, even though we've never been

698
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,320
Speaker 2: what you'd expect. There was always a lot of rivalry

699
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 2: growing up. Yeah, and even a lot of violence even

700
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:41,760
Speaker 2: between us before we were back robbers.

701
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 1: Okay, so in operating together with one be the gatherway driver,

702
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 1: the other one in the bank.

703
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 2: All right, Okay, Well I've just mentioned I've swum the

704
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 2: river to get past the U blokes. I keep saying

705
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 2: you blokes, and you weren't even there. Fair, But we'll

706
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 2: coat you all with the same blue color now, Yes,

707
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 2: So that night. He was the getaway driver once I

708
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 2: got past the roadblock. So the getaway driver. If you're

709
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 2: talking about a second vehicle, which is the normal procedure,

710
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 2: we'll keep like that first vehicle, second vehicle, or sometimes

711
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 2: if I didn't think we could use a vehicle, and

712
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 2: because there was no way to get back with a

713
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 2: vehicle or a motorbike, there was one night I actually

714
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 2: ran thirty three kilometers after a job to get back

715
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,399
Speaker 2: to Geelong to avoid you guys, because there was only

716
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 2: one main road back. Okay, So what my procedure was

717
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 2: that how do I keep up a steady direction at

718
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 2: nighttime in scrubb or paddocks. Now very easy.

719
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 1: One.

720
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 2: If there's a railway line, I can follow a railway

721
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 2: line because coppers don't search railway lines, they search streets

722
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,800
Speaker 2: or roads. Because we actually went past a big roadblock

723
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 2: one night, or thirty yards across the paddock in the

724
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:02,879
Speaker 2: railway line, we could actually hear the conversation of the roadblock. Yeah,

725
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 2: and we're on the railway line laughing at them. Because

726
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 2: when you're actually doing the jobs, it's not during the getaway,

727
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 2: which might take a couple of hours. If you do

728
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 2: it like that there is a bit of jest going on,

729
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 2: a bit of like, oh, look at those loser that

730
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 2: over there. They wouldn't know where we are. And even

731
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 2: that night that actually brings up a point. We used

732
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 2: to get back to Melbourne and go in the city

733
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,399
Speaker 2: and buy the newspapers at midnight, yeah, to read about

734
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 2: it if we've been caught or not okay, and usually

735
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,879
Speaker 2: it would say something like we're expecting we've got them around.

736
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 2: I got him surrounded in the area and we're expecting

737
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 2: to have him cornered and caught.

738
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know, I see, and it's fair corp,

739
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 1: fair cop. You can you can laugh at the cops.

740
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 1: I'll throw a couple of back. I've been in situations

741
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,399
Speaker 1: where and granted I had to sit in the van

742
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: the whole day, but knowing the bank's going to be robbed,

743
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 1: but then as the crew have gone in there robbed

744
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,439
Speaker 1: the bank, we're jumping now the van in now black

745
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 1: overalls and shotguns and we've had the victories there. I've

746
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 1: had another one in a saw the semi rural bank,

747
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 1: just a local operation, and that was we got the

748
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: tip off that the bank was going to be held

749
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: up and I was in the bank waiting for him.

750
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 1: So they're the good victory. So you know, sometimes you win,

751
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 1: sometimes we win.

752
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to applud you blokes. Now I'm going

753
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 2: to give you a little little feather for your cat.

754
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 1: All right.

755
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 2: People are sad to me as well known that the

756
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 2: talk around was we had them running around the circles

757
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 2: and after twenty three jobs, they didn't have one sceric

758
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,359
Speaker 2: of evidence, and even for me when they went rated

759
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,280
Speaker 2: my place, there was still no evidence on me physical.

760
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 2: People say, you had them running around in circles, you

761
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 2: know how I always answer that, I go, but guess

762
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:48,720
Speaker 2: what they had the last say.

763
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing, isn't it. Doug and I think

764
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 1: we mentioned when we're talking the other day that movie Heat,

765
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:58,799
Speaker 1: and I like the way the dynamics of that movie.

766
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 1: It's an old movie, and I'm not sure if the

767
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 1: saying comes from there, but it's a very true saying.

768
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: In policing. We can make one mistake after another, but

769
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 1: you've just got to make one mistake and you're caught.

770
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 1: And that's so it's stacked against you, really, isn't it.

771
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:20,320
Speaker 2: Well I compare it to this. I actually said this

772
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 2: to somebody yesterday. Look, I talk very freely, honestly to

773
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,399
Speaker 2: anybody that asked me a question, unless it's about something

774
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 2: I haven't been convicted for.

775
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 1: I deny that alligator.

776
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 2: They said, like they were talking about that, and I said, well,

777
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 2: it's like this. I'm at the races and I've backed

778
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 2: five winners in a row. When am I going to lose?

779
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 2: Because you always lose if you gamble.

780
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:47,760
Speaker 1: Good analogy if you go too long.

781
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 2: When you keep going back into and look, another analogy

782
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 2: for you is, what is it like robbing banks? Well,

783
00:39:55,640 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 2: it's like going fishing. You hope you'll get the big one.

784
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 1: What's the What's one that surprised you? You got more

785
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: than you expected than what's one that disappointed you?

786
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 2: Well, there was disappointment with my brother's first job. He

787
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 2: ran in on his very first job and got three

788
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 2: hundred and twenty dollars and he had stolen the Falcon

789
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 2: GT to do the job in and rode it off right, okay,

790
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 2: And even in those days, the car was worth four

791
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 2: and a half gramd. We'd be worth one hundred and

792
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 2: fifty now. And he put it in a ditch and

793
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:30,439
Speaker 2: I said, well, you're not much of a bank robber,

794
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 2: you get three hundred bucks and he said he wouldn't

795
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 2: even the safe. I said, well that's your shows. You're

796
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:38,320
Speaker 2: not much of a bank Robert so anyway. But the

797
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 2: reality is I retired in seventy eight after the last

798
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 2: job I did was a bank at Warburton. And I

799
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 2: talk about it because of an actual fact. I'm supposed

800
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 2: to be this big bank robber. The truth is I

801
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 2: only ever did one bank myself, and it was the

802
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 2: biggest bank we did because I had inside information. Remember

803
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 2: I saw all the money on the back and I

804
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 2: got thirty nine thousand something and that was enough to

805
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 2: buy two houses in suburbs of Melbourne. So I jokingly

806
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 2: talk about two bags. I had one brick veneer house

807
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 2: and one bag and a weatherboard house and the other bag.

808
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 2: As I come out of the.

809
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: Bank, when you got money like that, did that make

810
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:21,920
Speaker 1: you think, Okay, my luck's going to run out if

811
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 1: I keep going along this path. Did you make a

812
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: conscious decision and go, Okay, I'm going to get out

813
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 1: of the game.

814
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 2: Well it was it a dickne It's actually a very

815
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 2: good question, and it's a question about my whole life actually,

816
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 2: and a question about reality. Now, after that job, I

817
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 2: get away on the motorbike. I even my planning was

818
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 2: so good. The back roads on that day were gravel

819
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:51,840
Speaker 2: roads and the bike was leaving tire marks as it

820
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 2: was a wet day. So I spent about an hour

821
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,240
Speaker 2: criss crossing through different intersections so that you blokes wouldn't

822
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 2: know if I went left, right or straight on. Now

823
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 2: what I did on the actual getaway, I knew that

824
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 2: I needed to get off the road without leaving tire marks.

825
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:12,799
Speaker 2: I was using a two fifty honder and I must

826
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 2: have been a lot fitter in those days, because I

827
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 2: pulled the bike up on a hardened part of the gravel,

828
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,720
Speaker 2: lifted the bike off the road, carried the bike across

829
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 2: to the fence, and lifted it over a fence so

830
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 2: it wasn't even near a gate, hit it in the

831
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 2: scrub so you didn't even have any tire marks, and

832
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 2: then proceeded into the scrub, so you would be looking

833
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 2: for a gate that was open or my tire marks

834
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 2: showing which way I went. So my planning was so good,

835
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 2: even in the necessity because of a rainy day, I

836
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 2: would come up with a way that you couldn't follow me.

837
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 2: I spent two hours, and that was three o'clock. Was

838
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 2: in October. It would have been dark about maybe I

839
00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 2: don't know about daylight saving certain but let's say it

840
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 2: was darker six o'clock before dark. I was sitting under

841
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 2: a big gum tree and the helicopter had got there

842
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 2: and it was buzzing around, and I was listening to

843
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 2: the helicopter and thinking, nah, this is a good gum tree.

844
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 2: You're not going to see me. So I was just

845
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 2: casually having a rest after a day's hard work. Sorry,

846
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 2: I had to drop. It was a pretty hard day,

847
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 2: but I lean up since three o'clock. That was his job,

848
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 2: it's anyway. So I'm counting the money. I get up

849
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 2: to thirty nine nine hundred, and I realized what that

850
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:31,800
Speaker 2: means because a friend of mine has just bought a

851
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 2: house for eighteen thousand. So I know what I've got

852
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 2: in my bag. And I didn't think what you just

853
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 2: thought then, like that is that enough money or whatever?

854
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 2: Two things went through my mind. This is a lot

855
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 2: of money. One, I'll be honest, I went, I looked

856
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 2: up into the sky. I couldn't see the helicopter. I went, boys,

857
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 2: I'm armed up with thirty nine grand. You will not

858
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 2: be catching me today. Okay, you're not taking my thirty

859
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 2: nine grand. Like oh, I was going to say, like

860
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 2: a dog protecting his dinner from you know where sometimes

861
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,880
Speaker 2: you feed the dog, they're even defensive against you because

862
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 2: you might be taking it back. Well, you weren't getting

863
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 2: my thirty nine grand back that day.

864
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 1: Now you're a dog.

865
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 2: And that's a bad analogy. But like I don't care

866
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 2: in criminal circles. That's a very bad analogy. But what

867
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 2: I did think about I thought about my brother, and

868
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 2: I thought about his ego and he was out of control.

869
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 2: And what was happening was every time he did a bank,

870
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 2: he would buy another race horse. So I saw that

871
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 2: in his mind, banks meant another race horse. So I've

872
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 2: actually said to people, Ray Kosh who got shot. He

873
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 2: got shot so my brother could feed race horses to

874
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 2: buy chaff.

875
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 1: Well Ray being the being the cop that got shot.

876
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:56,840
Speaker 1: And we'll talk about talk about that.

877
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 2: But you see what I'm thinking. My thoughts now are

878
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 2: we're doing all this for feed race horses or that's

879
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 2: why he's doing it? That I thought, if I continue,

880
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 2: If I continue, now, let's say that money was enough

881
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 2: to change the normal life. If I continue, when I've

882
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:15,879
Speaker 2: got money in the bag to change a normal life,

883
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 2: maybe go to New Zealand or whatever. Now, if I continue,

884
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 2: I've got some sort of psychological problem.

885
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:26,400
Speaker 1: That's what you That's what you were thinking.

886
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 2: Guess what. I quit? Yeah, And I am so happy

887
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:34,239
Speaker 2: that I can sit here today and say to you

888
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 2: I quit the year before. My brother continued. God us

889
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 2: caught shot a copper and give me up six seven

890
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 2: months later.

891
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 1: Okay, So because I always always wonder about Yeah, I

892
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 1: understand that the motivation for money and people doing it

893
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:52,799
Speaker 1: and they make their money. I've come across a lot

894
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:55,720
Speaker 1: of people in the whole range of criminal activities about

895
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:58,800
Speaker 1: making money, whether it's drug deal in robberies or whatever

896
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 1: that I'm thinking, why don't you just walk away from it?

897
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 1: Like you've got everything you need, you could easily retire.

898
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 1: But my observation is they get addicted to the adrenaline,

899
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 1: addicted to the game and the thrill of it all.

900
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 2: Well, I totally agree. Yeah, what I can say to you, honestly,

901
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,320
Speaker 2: the jail didn't break me or stop me being a

902
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 2: bank robber.

903
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I did. You stopped before?

904
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 2: Now, while I was doing the chan or eleven years

905
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 2: or twelve years in jail. All I used to think

906
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 2: about is this is damn inconvenient, seeing as I've already

907
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 2: made the decision. So I actually thought, surely you can

908
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 2: just let me go because I've already made the decision.

909
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 1: Look, Doug, I reckon there'd be a hard one to

910
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:42,319
Speaker 1: explain to the judge. No, nothing to worry about here,

911
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 1: your honor, I've already decided that bank robbin is not

912
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:46,960
Speaker 1: not for me.

913
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 2: Think don't you think you would have at least given

914
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 2: me a little bit of hearing?

915
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, he would have given you hearing. Then maybe another

916
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,800
Speaker 1: couple of years get there with yeah. Yeah, But you know,

917
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 1: I just I reflect on some of the the robberies

918
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 1: when people go in and Christopher Bins, who you would

919
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 1: have come across the badness, A well known Robert from

920
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:11,359
Speaker 1: down Victoria. He escaped from prison and came up our way.

921
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 1: And that's I was in the stick up when he

922
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 1: was arrested up here. And from memory it's gone back

923
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:19,800
Speaker 1: a long time, but he'd come into a bank and

924
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 1: with a shotgun and led a shot into the roof

925
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 1: just to get everyone's attention. And it was intense. It

926
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 1: was violent and all that, and we got onto him

927
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 1: and I think we called him about two or three

928
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 1: days later a tactical arrest. But that type of robbery

929
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 1: just strikes fear into people with a gun going off there.

930
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 1: But he's and I did sit down with him and

931
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: talk to him, and he's thought process was, I'm going

932
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 1: to get their attention. Everyone's going to comply and it's

933
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 1: going to be less risky if everyone complies, because it's

934
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 1: going to blow up if if they don't. What's your

935
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 1: take on that type of robbery?

936
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:58,479
Speaker 2: Sure, and my brother in a way, he did things

937
00:47:58,520 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 2: differently to me.

938
00:47:59,400 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 1: Yep.

939
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 2: He would walk into a bank with a bigger weapon,

940
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 2: bigger looking weapon than me, so he's trying to portray

941
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:09,360
Speaker 2: the violence with the look of the gun. He was

942
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:13,480
Speaker 2: actually physical with people, actually pushing them around, so he

943
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 2: was more dominating. But Chris, going back to Chris, there

944
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 2: was a gang that you used to always should into

945
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 2: the ceiling on every job. But there was that was

946
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 2: sort of a thing where like, let's make a statement

947
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:31,439
Speaker 2: when we walk in. My attitude was, well, why don't

948
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 2: we just plan it better than walking in with five customers?

949
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 2: Now five customers and four staff or five stuff. That's

950
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:44,240
Speaker 2: ten people. Could you imagine trying to control ten people

951
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 2: when you've only got two eyes?

952
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 1: Oh you can't. If they all panicked and rend their

953
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:50,839
Speaker 1: separate ways, it'll be very hot.

954
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So if you lose control, things go wrong.

955
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 2: So I would not walk into that situation. But look,

956
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 2: I understand everybody robs me differently, but that's not my

957
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 2: nature to scare people. And so my attitude was I

958
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 2: don't know, but I just feel I did things differently,

959
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 2: even to my brother, because I'm more go in right, Okay,

960
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 2: you know, it's been a bad day so far. The

961
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 2: traffic was bad. Sorry I'm a bit late. I've come

962
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 2: in three minutes after you were closing. Sorry you're not

963
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:23,399
Speaker 2: having a cup of tea. But I'm going to rob

964
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:24,440
Speaker 2: you that I'm going to leave.

965
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:26,360
Speaker 1: Stuff like that.

966
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 2: So it really was totally different. I know what you're

967
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 2: talking about. I know the other styles where it's like

968
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,759
Speaker 2: the boiler suit gangs running in in numbers, scaring the

969
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 2: hell out of everybody. Maybe they learned that from TV shows.

970
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 1: Well I was, and you know, and we will talk

971
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:46,719
Speaker 1: about it, the psychological damage. But there was a crew

972
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:49,320
Speaker 1: getting around at one stage that there go was to

973
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:51,840
Speaker 1: come in, I'll get their attention. I'm going to shoot

974
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: this lady customer in the leg and yeah, that type

975
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 1: of stuff. And they they needed to be brought down

976
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 1: the rivalry with the tole up squad and the bank

977
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 1: robbers and that. But that's just not well.

978
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 2: I actually agree with you. There's no amount of money

979
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:13,440
Speaker 2: that gives me the right to hurt somebody.

980
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 1: Yeah.

981
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, money doesn't have the same value as a person

982
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 2: and even as a banker. But you got to remember

983
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:21,279
Speaker 2: I was a bank teller, so.

984
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:25,320
Speaker 1: May you've mentioned that. Talk us through that. So your career,

985
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 1: you could have been working behind the bank. How did

986
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:29,800
Speaker 1: you get from bank teller the bank robber?

987
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:32,759
Speaker 2: Well, what happened to My father had been robbed the

988
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:35,760
Speaker 2: Bank of nineteen forty nine, had a big shootout in Eltham.

989
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:38,319
Speaker 1: Cost It runs in the family, though you didn't know that.

990
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:43,399
Speaker 2: Before I was born. And he was nineteen and he'd

991
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:47,360
Speaker 2: broken into a bank at nighttime at Greensboro and he

992
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 2: was a burglar in those days as a bit of

993
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:52,799
Speaker 2: side money. So his idea was to break into the bank,

994
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 2: find the keys, and get the safe at nighttime while

995
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 2: upstairs the bank. I'm still the building's still there, and

996
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:01,800
Speaker 2: the bank and my my family or my dad and

997
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 2: his family grew up as children in Greensboro, so it

998
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 2: was the local bank. So he goes in at nighttime.

999
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,319
Speaker 2: He can't find the keys, but he finds in one

1000
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 2: of the drawers he finds a twenty five, which is

1001
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 2: a very small pistol. So he leaves the bank with nothing.

1002
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:21,279
Speaker 2: The people are upstairs sleeping. He leaves, and now he's

1003
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 2: got a pistol. A week later, he goes and I

1004
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:27,719
Speaker 2: wasn't alive, but I'm assuming he looks in his hand

1005
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:31,240
Speaker 2: he's got a pistol. Well, I'm now a bank robber.

1006
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 2: So he goes to a bank about ten kilometers away

1007
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 2: from whether he was raised, and he runs in with

1008
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 2: a pistol and demands the money, and then a gun

1009
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 2: battle started and he left with no money. So it

1010
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 2: was actually an attempt at armed robbery, and there was

1011
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 2: gunplay and between him and the bank tellers there were

1012
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 2: seventeen shots fired, which I've been told out weighs the

1013
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:01,240
Speaker 2: ok Carrell by one shot and the same time period.

1014
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not sure on the figures there, but

1015
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:08,360
Speaker 1: well I checked it either seen. Seveneen rounds is a

1016
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 1: lot of gunplay and.

1017
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 2: They were shooting with thirty eighth and he oud of

1018
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 2: twenty five.

1019
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 1: So he did time for that, did he?

1020
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:19,800
Speaker 2: He did three years because his best mate who became

1021
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 2: his brother in law, give him up.

1022
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 1: Right, So, just because your old man was locked up

1023
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:27,239
Speaker 1: for breaking into a bank, how did that make you

1024
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:28,839
Speaker 1: a bank teller? Well?

1025
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:32,360
Speaker 2: What happened all his life when we went to New

1026
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 2: Zealand that's another story. When he was there he got

1027
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 2: into a bit of trouble financially, started breaking in the

1028
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:39,879
Speaker 2: post office a nighttime, which I used to go along

1029
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:41,759
Speaker 2: with him and help him wiel the saves out when

1030
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:43,359
Speaker 2: I was thirteen at nighttime.

1031
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 1: All right, So he'd take you and your brother.

1032
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:49,680
Speaker 2: My brother very rarely volunteered. He really wasn't a strong

1033
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:51,560
Speaker 2: member of the team as such.

1034
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:53,920
Speaker 1: But you would go with your old man to rob

1035
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:54,919
Speaker 1: the po If.

1036
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:57,080
Speaker 2: He said I was anybody want to come, I'd always

1037
00:52:57,120 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 2: put my hand Uneah.

1038
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:00,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not the best role models for you there, Doug.

1039
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 2: Oh come, you know they do that to who I

1040
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 2: love my dad. Look, I'll tell you what, Actually, I'll

1041
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:13,200
Speaker 2: never blame my dad. Most people will say Look, I'll

1042
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 2: tell you how I'll defend my dad. He was naive

1043
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 2: to what was to happen. Right, He was naive to

1044
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 2: what we learned from him. Right. And I'll applaud my father.

1045
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 2: He was a brilliant father. I love my father. But

1046
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:30,880
Speaker 2: he was a little bit naive to what he was

1047
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 2: teaching us and what it could end up in. Now,

1048
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:37,960
Speaker 2: to clarify that, he would never have dreamt that we

1049
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 2: would be bank robbers or anything. He was on the

1050
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:42,879
Speaker 2: run while I was a bank teller. He was about

1051
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:44,160
Speaker 2: to go on the run because he'd ripped off a

1052
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 2: real estate agent and put the deposits from the houses

1053
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 2: in his own bank.

1054
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 1: Again.

1055
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:51,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Now the night he said to me, we're

1056
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 2: on the run again. I was a bank teller and

1057
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:57,719
Speaker 2: my float, because banks run to regulation, my float was

1058
00:53:57,719 --> 00:53:59,799
Speaker 2: two and a half grand. I was a junior bank

1059
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:03,880
Speaker 2: in the city. I used to play the game of

1060
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:07,520
Speaker 2: getting my float in my chill up as high as

1061
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:11,279
Speaker 2: I could. The ninety said in two days, we've got

1062
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 2: to leave. I said, that's okay. I've got eleven and

1063
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:17,960
Speaker 2: a half grand, am I unit. Why don't you come

1064
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:19,719
Speaker 2: in and rob me and I'll give you half an

1065
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:24,239
Speaker 2: hour start right, Yeah, I instigated that conversation.

1066
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:24,719
Speaker 1: Yep.

1067
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 2: He looked at me and said, you will not do

1068
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:30,880
Speaker 2: anything like that. He was on the run for fifteen

1069
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:32,880
Speaker 2: hundred dollars, which was a fair bit of money in

1070
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 2: those days. The average wage was about eighty bucks a

1071
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 2: week and I was offering him eleven and a half grand.

1072
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 1: But he wasn't able to do it because I didn't

1073
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:44,800
Speaker 1: want to drag you into it exactly.

1074
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 2: So people might criticize my dad, But doesn't that answer

1075
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 2: the critics?

1076
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:53,960
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, okay, Well we might take a break here, Doug,

1077
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 1: and when we get back, we're going to talk about

1078
00:54:56,200 --> 00:55:00,279
Speaker 1: how you were arrested, how it came unstuck, and I'll

1079
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:03,239
Speaker 1: ask you how your relationship is with your brother now,

1080
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 1: because I get the sense there was a bit of

1081
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:11,279
Speaker 1: issues issues there on how you got caught, then your

1082
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:14,240
Speaker 1: time in Pentridge and you did what the eleven years.

1083
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 2: I tell everybody twelve. Jeffrey at Wilkinson, who's brought crime

1084
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:22,759
Speaker 2: stoppers to Australia, rings me up and goes, I heard

1085
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 2: you say twelve again. He goes, it was ten years,

1086
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:27,920
Speaker 2: ten months. I said, look, jeff I'm glad to have

1087
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:30,719
Speaker 2: a little bit of exaggeration, Mate, twelve sounds really good.

1088
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:32,880
Speaker 1: Don't don't let the truth get in the way of

1089
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 1: a good story.

1090
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 2: Well, I did time with Shopper, so you and I

1091
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:36,239
Speaker 2: went to.

1092
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:39,399
Speaker 1: School with him and a couple of things. And then

1093
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 1: we will talk about because we've talked about the robberies.

1094
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 1: But I think it's good, you know, ex hold up

1095
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:49,839
Speaker 1: cop speaking to a ex robber and just getting your

1096
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:53,319
Speaker 1: take on it. It's a fascinating chat. But we'll also

1097
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:56,680
Speaker 1: talk about your remorse for the impact it had on victims,

1098
00:55:56,719 --> 00:56:00,080
Speaker 1: because I know that's something important and a message that

1099
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 1: you have the people about don't waste your life. How

1100
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 1: you survived prison, including you're smuggling And if I mentioned

1101
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 1: Jelly Knight, were allowed to talk about that.

1102
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:11,560
Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you the truth.

1103
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:11,839
Speaker 1: Yep.

1104
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:14,799
Speaker 2: Forty something years ago they grabbed me when they found

1105
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 2: some Jelly Knight in the jail. Out of fifteen hundred presents,

1106
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:21,320
Speaker 2: they grabbed me and put me in isolation, threatened me

1107
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:23,760
Speaker 2: of an extra ten years if I wouldn't spill the beans.

1108
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 2: And I didn't spell the beans. I was the only

1109
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 2: person under investigation out of fifteen hundred. Nobody's ever been

1110
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 2: convicted and nobody knows the truth except for me.

1111
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:34,120
Speaker 1: OK.

1112
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:36,760
Speaker 2: So guess what you won't be getting any answers today?

1113
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:39,320
Speaker 1: Well you wait till I started not where's the phone books? No,

1114
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:42,759
Speaker 1: we don't use them anymore. We'll also talk about your

1115
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:45,799
Speaker 1: art and what you're doing now that you're spending time

1116
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 1: back in Penridge Prison, but not the way you spend

1117
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:51,279
Speaker 1: it in the first time. So we'll talk about that

1118
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 1: in part too.

1119
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:55,279
Speaker 2: Sure. And I was while you were talking, and I

1120
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 2: was just considering what I would have done if I

1121
00:56:58,239 --> 00:56:58,759
Speaker 2: had to met you.

1122
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:02,719
Speaker 1: Well, it might have been interesting, mightn't it.

1123
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:05,799
Speaker 2: And I'll tell you one thing, Ray Coosh, you got shot?

1124
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:06,879
Speaker 1: Yes? Yeah.

1125
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:11,360
Speaker 2: Last year, his daughter Yep sent me a message on

1126
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:14,880
Speaker 2: messenger and I've lost it that she's followed my life.

1127
00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, and she applauds me. Well, that must mean a lot.

1128
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 2: I rang up Jeff Welkins, who was working with you

1129
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:25,960
Speaker 2: boys as a crime writer. I said, kill me now

1130
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:31,120
Speaker 2: because you have no idea what that meant to me.

1131
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:35,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I think it's important to us having chats

1132
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 1: like this, And yeah, redemption is a big part of

1133
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 1: people make mistakes. You made a lot of mistakes and

1134
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 1: frequent mistakes. But yeah, it's a long life, and you

1135
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:48,480
Speaker 1: judged on not just one aspect of your life, sir.

1136
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:51,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, but there's no such thing as redemption. Yeah, there's

1137
00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 2: only the last ten seconds of your life when you

1138
00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 2: get to judge yourself. Yeah, because nobody has the right

1139
00:57:58,960 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 2: to judge you.

1140
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:02,680
Speaker 1: We're getting deep now. I'm going to have a break.

1141
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:04,680
Speaker 1: I'm going to think about a smart ours answer to

1142
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:07,200
Speaker 1: come back to you with that one, and we'll be

1143
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:08,480
Speaker 1: back for part too shortly.

1144
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:10,320
Speaker 2: Oh, you've got as a phone book.